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Had a point about a couple of things.

That stuff about businesses (like Chrysler) not having orders is CORRECT. And the drop in auto sales numbers means we should adopt good ideas.

He used the term 'voucher' where I use the term 'Showroom Refundable Tax Credit', and he did not put mileage standards on his 'vouchers' where I do.

I added a second 'Showroom Refundable Tax Credit' for people trading in cars that get poor gas mileage where he only had a single credit for cars 9 years old or older.

I wonder about the accuracy of his $75 billion price tag but you there is 'the germ' of a good idea in that factories must have orders (sales) again. So let's not quibble about his numbers, take out some tax cuts and put in his 'vouchers'.

Improving the 'stimulus' bill IS POSSIBLE! Please, Have the Repub BACK on the SHOW REAl SOON!

It's time to actually pay attention to really good ideas to preserve both JOBS and manufacturing plants with a direct 'tax expenditure'.

Converting some heavy manufacturing to making 200,000 windturbines is a good idea too, as with electrifying freight and passenger rail in return for right-of-way for the electrical grid.

My wife and I love your show (and Kent Jones ROCKS too), please keep up the GREAT WORK!

[Edited after jump]

The best way to set context for the Rachel Maddow Show segment I'm discussing is to go to rachel.msnbc.com and play the video for yourself if you missed last night's show.

The segment is third from the top and entitled: "Elephants in the Room".

After her lead-in about the 'Bipartisan Cocktail Party' in the White House she introduces Republican Congressmember Don Manzullo (R-IL16) to the audience and discusses why he voted against the 'Stimulus Bill'.

I went to his House website and found more video of his proposal.

It can certainly be improved, but it's worth considering versus tax cuts to corporations or more bailout money for Wall Street criminals.

RMD

Originally posted to RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 08:58 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Red Meat Dem. Please provide a bit more (6+ / 0-)

    context here for those of us who might have missed the show.

  •  I am against the refund for cars (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    janmtairy

    even though I am entirely behind the UAW.

    I don't think we should encourage irresponsible spending. The jobless can't afford to buy cars even with a refund.

    Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

    by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:01:28 AM PST

    •  So You Want Layoffs in Auto Plants? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wisper, Nebraska68847Dem

      What is hiding behind your thin veil?

      RMD

      The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

      by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:05:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  As I said I am behind the UAW and jobs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ibonewits

        but not for irresponsible spending.

        Nationalize or give government investment for plants to produce green infrastructure - i.e. solar panels in return for the product of solar panels and shares in companies for plant investments.

        People say that government can't run business but that often only applies when a board runs it - elect a auto czar to run them.

        The arguments I give don't require a veil only the right wing produces those thinly veiled corporate talking points. My talking points are based on thinly veiled support for the working class. Try again.

        Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

        by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:12:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Electric Cars and High-Efficiency Cars (0+ / 0-)

          could be considered green infrastructure.

          I'm 59 and my walking 5 miles to the store days are over.

          RMD

          The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

          by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:43:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You should be walking at your age. (0+ / 0-)

            That takes maybe an hour or maybe an hour and a half at your age. It is recommended that you get at least half an hour of exercise to sustain even minimal health. Anyways . . . back to jobs and sustainability.

            But the thing is that real green cars several years off not that I would be opposed to transforming those auto plants when the time comes as the UAW has supported.

            It simply won't be an option for stimulus if mean by stimulus creating jobs and a sustainable economy.

            BTW I was in favor of the bailout I just thought more regulation and strings should have been attached. I am against "restructuring" if that means losing jobs. If restructuring means more plants for green cars then I am all for it.

            Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

            by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:50:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  With My Bad Ankle (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              thethinveil

              I could not walk a round trip to the store in an hour and a half.

              But I do exercise, just my days riding a bike for miles to go shopping are over.  

              Ah, blessed youth has left me.

              I've survived 6 years longer than my dad.

              RMD

              The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

              by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 10:10:00 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  What if you need a car to work? (0+ / 0-)

      As much as I would like it to be, many people cannot get to a job without a car. Cars are not the problem, lack of work is the problem.

      01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

      by kimoconnor on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:24:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey I travel an hour to get to work (0+ / 0-)

        but I do it by bike.

        But that is no solution for the big three or the suburban citizen.

        First we should be developing mass transit with the help of GM and Chrysler. See my above comment about setting the priorities of the Big three.  

        But the Suburbs aren't sustainable and eventually - probably once we are out of this crisis we need to limit growth and concentrate on building city population density through regulations on developers.

        Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

        by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:29:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are ONLY 1 American (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wisper

          May you bike as long as you wish... I even support bike trails and bike lanes for you.

          However, it's time to realize that there are other folks who are... shall we say?... not attracted to your 'Let them bike...' attitude.

          I'm not voting for anybody who wants to force me to give up my car but I am willing to buy an electric car if we can carrot and stick Detroit into making them.

          RMD

          The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

          by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:46:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  sorry but we are more than one american (0+ / 0-)

             title=

            Get over the bike phobia.

            We don't bike because its popular we bike because it is fun, cheap and environmentally friendly without falling into the trap of green consumerism.

            Keep you car till extinction.

            I thought I would throw that in since you are misrepresenting my comments and trying to frame everyone who disagrees with you as right wing or outsiders.

            Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

            by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:59:10 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  A Million Bike Riders Is Still (0+ / 0-)

              Only 1 percent of Americans.

              Why don't you get over your hostility towards the vast majority who like cars.

              This is a democracy which means car-owners outvote you.

              Deal.

              RMD

              The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

              by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 10:13:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You are not right wing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              thethinveil

              It appears you are an idealist who wants everyone to bike or have public transportation or live in cities. A worthy goal, but not one that is going to happen anytime soon. My only point was that enabling someone to have transportation to get to work is desirable, even if it means many will need cars.

              01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

              by kimoconnor on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 10:28:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  What you want is all great (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wisper

          But we are not going to make it easy for rural or suburban people to get to work without a car for some time.

          I don't own a car, and use public transportation or use a car share if I need one from time to time.

          The point is, many simply do not have these options today. Many who are seeking work will not be able to work without a vehicle. That is just reality.

          01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

          by kimoconnor on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 10:25:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was making those arguments (0+ / 0-)

            outside of the general stimulus plan and outside of today's political constellation.

            However, looking at the comments of RMD on this thread right wing is exactly how he is trying to paint the rest who disagree with rebates as a solution. In reality it is compromise with Republican unwise consumer spending.

            People need transportation for jobs - I entirely agree. We can provide cheaper, more available public transit in the meantime - it would create jobs for bus drivers, train operators, construction workers and for factory workers while giving a cheaper way and a greener way and a more just way that brings our community together while bringing transportation for people who need it for their jobs and freeing up city and county funds for other infrastructure projects - which will in-turn create more support for the impoverished during this economy and more infrastructure for the general public.

            Then we could just help out those who are in the market for a car.

            Most people looking for a job who also need transportation cannot afford the payments and no one would make the loans to someone who has held a job for such a small amount of time - especially during the credit crunch.

            You could limit these rebates to people who make under thirty thousand a year to target those people who need cars for jobs and who couldn't afford them - maybe then I would sign on.

            Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

            by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 10:49:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you are dreaming (0+ / 0-)

              We can provide cheaper, more available public transit in the meantime -

              In the long run better public transportation and more effeciently designed housing must be achieved.

              I disagree that we can provide transportation for all who currently rely on cars 'in the meantime'.

              01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

              by kimoconnor on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 11:14:01 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  not all. (0+ / 0-)

                Just many in a year or so.

                Contrary to what you may think I  am a pragmatist who only believes in pragmatism if it achieves the goals you set out to achieve - (i.e responsible consumers, jobs and a sustainable economy.)

                Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

                by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 11:18:55 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well some is possible of course (0+ / 0-)

                  I am a pragmatist myself. I also know many people who are not likely to get access to public transportation for a long time, if ever. Everyone will simply not live in cities. Nor should they have to.

                  But I do agree we can improve on this issue. But you know, in part it is a cultural thing, Americans do love their cars!

                  01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

                  by kimoconnor on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 11:36:27 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The economy can overcome cultural factors (0+ / 0-)

                    and if there is a time to make such a switch the time is most likely now not during environmental devastation.

                    I don't think we can eliminate our rural communities nor would I want to. RDM wanted to paint me as that idealist outsider who has no concern for jobs or conventions. I don't follow convention but I understand that other people do and it takes some movivation to move out of the norms society has set up for us.

                    If we can make it easier to move during this time by nationalizing a  struggling bank or two and using their labor resources to provide cheap loans for modest housing in cities then we can encourage the suburbs to shrink. Again this might not be the best idea at this point - we need political will on environmental issues and a worsened economy when driving four hours a day is not economically feasible.

                    Gas tax, plus public transit and affordable loans for affordable city housing could do it in this time of economic crisis. Again this is about trying to blend long term goals with the situation on the ground. As you can tell, I know that Surburbs and exburbs are unsustainable and we simply cannot afford to have them. Both of my parents are city planners and have actively worked against sprawl their entire lives so this is an issue I feel strongly about.

                    But your point on jobs in response to used cars is not lost on me. Which is why I wanted green infrastructure to be a priority for the big three.

                    As I said in my second comment on this thread is that biking is no solution for suburban workers or the workers at the big 3.

                    Rural communities will most likely have to focus on low scale manufacturing and more of a diy small business model to survive. There is no reason for rural communities to be spread out and if they are they cannot travel everywhere for their jobs or for consumption. They basically have to become more self reliant if they are to be sustainable. Keep in Mind this is long term big picture policy principles I am talking about not what can happen right now.

                    The opposition to nationalization of the banks and the automakers is where I expect to see the greatest problem with my positions feasibility.

                    And this entirely depends on where we stand with the integrity of those business sectors as well as how bad the economy will get in order to motivate the political will amongst the American public. We will see in a year about this.

                    Good Frames Won't Save Bad Paintings.

                    by thethinveil on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 11:58:21 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  A Used Car Would Be More Cost Effectiove... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thethinveil

        If a person doesn't already have reliable transportation to work, getting a small rebate/voucher on a new car will not improve their financial picture as much as a good, less expensive reliable used car.

  •  Some cars 9 years old get better mileage than (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thethinveil

    today's cars.  For example - a 1994 Honda Civic Hatchback got 45-56 mpg.   A 2008 Honda Civic gets 24-36 mpg.     A lot lot less.

    •  That's Why I Had Mileage Standards When (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      UtopianPablo

      the Republican did not.

      He was advocating a position that can be improved on while making it harder for him to vote against it.

      RMD

      The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

      by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:07:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Rachel did a good job. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thethinveil

    Rachel made this Republican look like a real fool with his arguments about vouchers for buying cars. The great work on Rachel's part was exposing how foolish these Republican ideas really are.

    I think the odds of this guy coming back on Rachel's show are about the same as the number of Republicans interested in stimulus bill that will actually stimulate the economy - zero.

    Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

    by landrew on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:06:18 AM PST

    •  Actually, You are Sounding like a Fossil Fool (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wisper

      We will not be going back to prosperity if we depend on fossil fuels for transportation.

      We should be looking for every way we can leverage every dollar of 'stimulus' to cut our expenditure on oil when the turn-around happens or we will be cutting off our progress with high fuel bills again.

      RMD

      The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

      by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:16:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We DISAGREE! (0+ / 0-)

    The USA would be much better off with higher sales of high mileage cars while taking polluting gas hogs off the roads than we would be with the factories shuttered and higher unemployment rates.

    Are you a closet TARPist?

    RMD

    The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

    by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:10:44 AM PST

  •  I have to admil--the more I see the details.... (5+ / 0-)

    of the stimulus bill, the less comfortable I am with it.

    And the Dems Ihave seen on the talk shows aren't really able to make a strong case for a lot of the particulars other than to say they are "good things".

    Rachel does such a good job with those interviews. She challenges them, but does it in such a constructive way that she gets honest, constructive answers for the most part and so you get a real discussion, not just a superficial shout fest.

    Again, you heard the congressman tell Rachel he came on the show because "you've got such a great reputation".

    I know she was too young, too new, too vagina-y, and too gay to get Meet the Press after Russert died, but she would have been great--especially after a year or so. I wonder how long it will be before NBC starts pulling her in.

    If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible...tonight is your answer.

    by Azdak on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:12:41 AM PST

    •  We Agree... (0+ / 0-)

      I am open to honest revisions that improve the stimulus effect of the bill and leave the country in a better position going forward.

      The current 'stimulus' is still woefully short on 'stimulus'.

      Frankly, I'd like to see the stimulus removed from the other crap.  

      RMD

      The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

      by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:50:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree--it would represent a "new direction".... (0+ / 0-)

        a lot more than this "bipartisan" crap.

        The Dems have a majority--put all that other stuff in another bill.

        I would like to see:

        1. put money effectively into people's pockets to spend, whatever the best method is.
        1. put more into solid infrastructure programs.
        1. Outline several bold initiatives that meet criteria #2, but which never would have been considered in a non-emergency situation: light rail, restructuring the electric grid, solar panel research, whatever.
        1. include buy American provisos.

        If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible...tonight is your answer.

        by Azdak on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 01:29:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Bloggo on tv now (0+ / 0-)

    "Chance favors the prepared mind"

    by tlemon on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:13:27 AM PST

  •  GOP Doesn't Believe In The Free Market Any More? (0+ / 0-)

    The market is supposed to naturally go where it's needed most. You're not supposed to pick out specific products for subsidies.

    •  This Republican is FINE With Free Markets For... (0+ / 0-)

      the other guy.

      But he wants subsidies for his district's auto plant.

      I am willing to see him get his vouchers if we get plug-in hybrids and full electric cars from his auto plant.

      RMD

      The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

      by RedMeatDem on Thu Jan 29, 2009 at 09:53:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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