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If you follow entertainment news in even the most cursory way, you heard about pop singer Rihanna's beating at the hands of R & B artist Chris Brown, just hours before they were scheduled to perform at the Grammy Awards earlier this month. And yesterday, after a police photograph showing Rihanna with cuts and bruises on her face was leaked to the media, the story was back in the news.

Listen to CNN's Kiran Chetry's take, and her guest's casual agreement, on what effect a criminal trial for Brown might have on Rihanna's future:

CHETRY: Also the questions for her moving forward. I mean does she want, you know, the stigma moving forward as a one-time victim of abuse, if this indeed turns out to be proven?

GUEST: Yeah, that's right. And it, you know, it sort of marks her career that she'll just be remembered for this rather than her own talents.

Why would being the victim of domestic violence prompt Chetry to discuss the "stigma" attached, except to imply that the victim was somehow to blame? Do we use such terminology about victims in a robbery? When a man beats up another man?

When did it become okay to suggest that victims of this kind of violence somehow "asked for it"?

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:00 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Pathetic News Media (13+ / 0-)

    this crap pisses me off.

    "Everybody does better, when everybody does better" - Paul Wellstone 1997

    by yuriwho on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:01:44 PM PST

  •  When the Republican Revolution Began nt (4+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:01:53 PM PST

  •  Good grief (14+ / 0-)

    That is certainly appalling.

    And so nonchalant.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:04:50 PM PST

  •  The media is two generations (16+ / 0-)

    behind the rest of the country. Someone's got to tell dear Ms. Chetry that 1950 has come and gone.

    The weak in courage is strong in cunning-William Blake

    by beltane on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:04:57 PM PST

    •  Sounds like 1890 - 1910. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      beltane

      The country was drunk, as much as not.

      Wife beating was handled within a family -- by the brothers -- unless it was somebody important.

      Same for northern Europe through the winter. Nobody sober.

      Droogie is as Droogie does....

      by vets74 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:23:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, it is the effect of the conservative tidal (6+ / 0-)

      wave that has swept the country for 30+ years.

      While we all here (I hope) deplore such attitudes, we have to recognize that, along with imposing retrograde policies on the country, they have been working assiduously to reimpose retrograde societal norms upon us, including racism, the glorification of violence, the denigration of women, the objectivation of children and the absence of any sense of ethics.

    •  Still here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mamamedusa, beltane

      Men still get 5 to life for killing their wives. Women are beaten everyday in their marriages and it goes on all over.

      We are improving, but too many still think that they are entitled.

      Notice to dead enders and Daleks. "It's over now so drink your big black cow and get out of here." Steely Dan

      by high uintas on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:02:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If she goes back to Chris Brown (5+ / 0-)

    it will be a horrible disappointment.

    2/10/07 Freezing in Springfield 11/4/08 Celebrating in Grant Park

    by chicago minx on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:05:15 PM PST

    •  Women do it all the time (6+ / 0-)

      I had a friend that text me a few weeks ago that her boyfriend hit her in the face. They were back together within a week. I don't understand those relationships, but I guess it's always easier from the outside looking in to make judgments.

      You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

      by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:13:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  shame (4+ / 0-)

        They go back because they are ashamed and they believe that they deserved it. It's disheartening because the abused women believe they have no power.

        ~ Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase ~ Martin Luther King, Jr ~

        by vcmvo2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:19:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think that's why my friend went back (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Julie Gulden, Julia C, the girl

           

          You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

          by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:20:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  She thinks she can "change" him... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2

            Geez, please warn her, they do not change!

            Moderation in all things-NOT

            by Julie Gulden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:23:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, that's not why either (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Julie Gulden, Julia C, the girl

              those two have a strange relationship.

              You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

              by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:24:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  How befuddling! It's beyond my (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vcmvo2, Muzikal203

                capabilities to understand.
                (hands thrown in air)

                Moderation in all things-NOT

                by Julie Gulden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:31:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, I stopped trying to figure them out (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Julie Gulden, the girl

                  a while ago. But she knows we all have her back if the steps out of line again.

                  You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

                  by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:32:21 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That is what Nicole Simpson's friends (3+ / 0-)

                    told her too. How did that work out for her? You need to do more than have her back if it happens again, you need to interfere, and do something to make sure it doesn't happen again.

                    •  Not everyone is OJ and Nichole (4+ / 0-)

                      and none of us can force her to end a relationship she doesn't want to end.

                      You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

                      by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:37:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are right not eveyone is OJ and Nicole, but (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mamamedusa

                        domestic violence left unchecked only escalates, and your friend can find herself in the same place as Nicole. You are also right you can not force her to end a relationship she doesn't want to end, but there are groups out there who can help to educate her to what might be in store for her. Sometimes it helps to see the damage such relationships have done to other woman, and to be able to share your feelings with woman who will not judge you, or who you think will not judge you. All I am saying is, the end result of an abusive relationship can be very, very bad.

                        •  See my post below (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          mamamedusa, Coilette

                          and consider if you might have something in your life you'd like to change. Do you want your friends coming in and "MANAGING" your life - say signing you up for Weightwatchers or AA?

                          You wouldn't like that. An abused women doesn't either, it just feeds into the message the abuser sends her - that she is too stupid to know how to manage her own life.

                          He starts very slowly, maybe telling her to wear a different shirt or get a new hairstyle - implying that she's incompetent in knowing her own style - and pretty soon he eats away at all of her instincts, everything that makes her who she is, and then her friends turn on her too.

                          Horrible place for any woman.

                          But you can invite her out for lunch, tell her you care, and that no matter what, you know she is smart and competent enough to know when enough is enough.

                          Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                          by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:07:35 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  All you say is so true, but if it were one of my (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            the girl

                            close friends, I would have to do something more. I could not live with myself if something terrible happened and I could have intervined and didn't. Maybe you can not prevent the inevitable, but support groups are very, very helpful. Not only do they boost self-esteem, but they also don't judge because they understand, and many offer help you can not get anywhere else. Sometimes the abuser keeps the victim so abused they don't know where to turn for help. Real friends don't turn on you, the abuser just makes you think they do.

                          •  This is the tragedy of abuse (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mamamedusa, MariaWr

                            for the women's friends. Agonizing to see this happen.

                            But you can lead her to the water, just don't force her to drink. Suggest and research support groups, but do it in a gentle, helpful, non-judgemental way, or you will be sending the same message as the abuser.

                            Your job as her friend is to support her clear thinking, to encourage her to trust her own gut, which has been virtually killed by the abuser. Abuse usually doesn't start with a punch, it starts with romance and fantasy.

                            If it started with a punch, no woman would stay around. Abusers know this and hook the woman first, then degrade her and her thinking and then when he gets lazier, he just resorts to the punch because that takes the least effort on his part.

                            The woman needs all the friends she can get, but gentle, supportive non-judgemental ones, which can be very tough on the friends.

                            Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                            by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 05:57:54 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  and you might find yourself getting (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Julie Gulden, gusguy
                      dead, too.  Call the police if something is happening.  Crazy, violent people often don't care who they hurt - you're just in their way.

                      What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is. ~ Dan Quayle

                      by CParis on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:45:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I accept that you know your friend (0+ / 0-)

                    but most women in these situations have more in common with how Julie Gulden and I described it. And I'm only emphasizing that in my reply because abused women often blame themselves for the abuse. They return to an escalating violence that ends up killing many women each year.

                    Women need to know that getting out is very important.

                    ~ Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase ~ Martin Luther King, Jr ~

                    by vcmvo2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:48:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I know for a fact she doesn't blame herself. (0+ / 0-)

                      You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

                      by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:49:28 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lirtydies

                        It's very unusual and it's puzzling why she needs that kind of a relationship but plenty of people puzzle me.

                        I'm speaking in general about women in abusive relationships. I'm glad your friend has you to stand by her and be non-judgmental. That's very important.

                        ~ Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase ~ Martin Luther King, Jr ~

                        by vcmvo2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:06:18 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

      •  Check out Amy Winehouse situation. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        irishwitch

        She's finally getting a divorce. Papers filed.

        But it took a year separation and about 100 lies from the thug to wake her up.

        Amazing what erotic submission does to twist heads.

        Droogie is as Droogie does....

        by vets74 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:25:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually erotic submission (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mamamedusa, mayim, elginblt

          can be a hell of a lot of fun,. What WInehoisue endured wasn't erotic submission which is always consensual and carefully negotiated in advance by the partners ( do some research on bdsm) was ABUSE, not erotic submission. I am kinky, and I am a bedroom sub--but if my husband ever hit me, he'd me in jail before he knew what hit him.  

          One of my best friends is a Domme who is training to be a counselor for battered women and who ah s worked as a volunteer counselor with rape and abuse victims. She's dealt with male abuse victims  as well.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:19:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The reason your friend went back (7+ / 0-)

        is complicated. Please, never, ever judge. You are doing the right thing by sticking by her.

        Think of it as something that you are trying to change about your life, maybe quit smoking, or lose weight - and someone came in and told you how stupid you are and how you are messing up your life blah blah blah.

        Telling anyone that she is stupid, misguided or "allowing" herself to be abused is doing EXACTLY what the abuser does to her.

        And with EVERYONE telling her she can't manage her life, she will prove everyone right.

        Physical abuse=you are killed
        Emotional abuse=you kill yourself.

        Lundy Bancroft (hero) recommends friends of abused women to read "To be a Port in the Storm" for some guidance.

        Always stick by the woman you feel is being abused, let her know you believe in her to know when she's had enough. Help her sort things out from the glue he's poured in her head. Tell her you admire her.

        Many women will risk daily abuse rather than divorce and send their children off unsupervised with her abuser.

        COMPLICATED.

        And BarbinMD - KUDOS to you for this observation of the idiots on CNN.

        Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

        by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:40:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  maybe she should listen (0+ / 0-)

          If everyone is telling her she can't manage her life, it's time for her to listen and stop defending the situation she's in. If she defends the situation, she's not a victim but half of the abuse game. If I had an abused friend who stayed with her abuser, I'd abandon her, chalk her up as living her chosen lifestyle, of which I'd want no part. And I'd consider that the most honest form of my friendship for such a person.

          •  Again, a misinformed society (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mamamedusa, MariaWr, elginblt

            this is the kind of thinking that will keep women being beaten and men getting away with it for time to come.

            You are misinformed and incorrect strawberrymind.

            Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

            by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:12:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  And your friend would be lucky (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mamamedusa

            if you made the decision to abandon her in your high self-righteousness - she's better off without you poisoning her mind more with your "half of the abuse game."

            You belong on CNN.

            Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

            by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:21:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  say what you will (0+ / 0-)

              I'm not trying to save this kind of person, because I myself want to stay away from abusive people.

              Whenever I've been in abusive situations, I've left. I never asked for help from anyone else, and anyone else's help would have been ineffective, anyway. It's up to the abused to leave.

              My sister was in an abusive situation, and I abandoned her until she "woke up." It was something she seemed to have to go through, and nothing I had any interest or expertise in dealing with. I don't have psychology training, and the guy was violent. She stayed with him to "help him" after many told her he was a loser. Her choice. I didn't see her as a victim but as an adult woman making her own way. Some people make dangerous choices, probably due to low self-esteem. But self-esteem can really come from within, by definition. And sometime self-esteem is very hard won.  

              High self-righteousness? Give me a break.

    •  they did it horribly, but... (0+ / 0-)

      that might be what they were trying to say. I mean that if she goes back to him the relationship will always be a distraction from her music.

      "Stigma" is a horrible choice of words considering the history of our culture always blaming the victim when it comes to crimes against women.

    •  i know (0+ / 0-)

      but she is young and i don't want to judge her.  i will hope that she eventually changes her mind if she does go back to him.  

      part of the problem, to me, is our idea of romantic love...that if you love someone, that person is your whole universe.

  •  Well, good to know! (15+ / 0-)

    Now I know I can freely beat the shit out of both of these ass clowns and neither of them will report it or ever talk about it, because obviously they would never want the "stigma of being a victim."

    Of course, I'd never do that. Then they'd be remebered for having the shit beat out of them, instead of being remembered for being flaming douchebags.

    - Its time we stopped dealing in words, and started Dealing in Lead.

    by walkingshark on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:05:35 PM PST

  •  Maybe I'm Reading It Wrong (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006

    Weren't they decrying that a victim could be stigmatized? Not that CNN isn't capable of being completely assholish.

    Canada - where a pack of smokes is ten bucks and a heart transplant is free.

    by dpc on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:06:13 PM PST

  •  F'n stupid. (18+ / 0-)

    Alcohol is the central feature of this story.

    Alcohol.

    Boyfriend was plastered and out of his mind when he assaulted her. So I have had to hear.

    Where does "stigma" come from? The lady is lucky to be alive and not brain-damaged from the beating she took, and is HE not in jail?

    The stigma comes from whatever forces insist on a "blame the victim" mentality.

    And they said a black man would never be President.....

    by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:06:27 PM PST

  •  Coming from a woman, that's disgusting. (12+ / 0-)

    Jeez, where does teh teevee media find such people ?

    From Alabama to Obama - You've come a long way baby.

    by amk for obama on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:06:42 PM PST

  •  Supposedly it became NOT okay .... (20+ / 0-)

    ...three decades ago to suggest that victims somehow "asked for it" when the "it" was rape or a beating and the victim was a woman. (It had always not been okay to suggest that a robbery or other crime against a man - even of a man in a seedy part of town - was a consequence of asking for it.)

    But some people have obviously not gotten the message.

    "The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." -Flannery O'Connor

    by Meteor Blades on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:07:00 PM PST

    •  Well, when the right launched their war on (11+ / 0-)

      political correctness - which is actually the act of showing sensitivity, they kicked every common sense meme to the curb, thus allowing the resurrection of "blame the victim" and other bullshit, insensitive spew.

      Change the media ownership laws - break up the corporate media monopoly!

      by moosely2006 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:22:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The key word is "supposedly" (10+ / 0-)

      I found that out when a police officer went to the hospital to coax a woman in her 60s who'd been a victim of spousal abuse for over 40 years to drop the complaint against her husband with the line

      "It'll be Christmas next week.  What'll you tell the grandchildren when they ask where Grandpa is?"

      She dropped the charges.  Those of us working at the shelter wondered what her husband told the grandchildren when they asked why Grandma's jaw was wired shut.

      (this was in NW Ohio in the early 1990s.)

      the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

      by mijita on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:33:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  mijita, if he's still in the PD, report him (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mijita, lirtydies, irishwitch

        because that kind of crap should not be tolerated EVER.

        John Edwards:"One America does the work, another America reaps the rewards. One America pays the taxes, another America gets the tax breaks."

        by BlackSheep1 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:57:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was reported at the time. (6+ / 0-)

          but the abuser had also been in the sheriff's department.  And while this wasn't a small town, it wasn't a big city either.  A community of 30,000 controlled by 300.

          I'd like to think things have changed in the decade I've been away.  But I hear there's still protests sometimes against the shelter from some of the more conservative ministers.  Because it's supposedly run by a bunch of liberal lesbians intent on breaking up Christian families.

          On the other hand, they did used to call us "witches" too.  And the shelter was always supported by the more mainstream churches.

          the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

          by mijita on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:06:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I could not agree with you more Meteor (7+ / 0-)

      the common criticsim is Domestic Violence victims ask for it just for being there. It is sick and upthread someone even said, that is what she gets for hanging out with a bad boy. Not all bad boys beat up women, just the sick ones.

    •  Some people never will (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, lirtydies

      You would be amazed how many people still think that if a woman is brutally beaten and murdered, she somehow was "asking" for it because of what she was wearing, or where she was at the time.

      As for the essay, I agree with all of it.  I am going through something like this right now, as you know..  In the case I'm working on, the Hawelka family never wanted the death penalty.  Katy's mom wants McCarthy to live every day of his life in prison. And I am doing everything I can to ensure that he does.

      As for the language in the will, I think it's great, but my stance in my family is well known.  I have always been against the death penalty.  But that has never meant that I haven't seen evil, because I have.  And, being human, it means that I sometimes forget to pray for someone like the guy who killed Chandra Levy. Prison is a microcosm of society, as you know, with its own sense of justice.

      We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

      by Mary Julia on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:30:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Some people believe it's still 1953. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lirtydies, mamamedusa

      Most of thema re conservatives.

      I watched  ALex Pelosi's documentary on the  right-wing, and there was one alrge ashole who, after declring that a balck man shouldn't be president, told Pelosi that she shouldn't be allowed to vote because she was qa woman.

      Just watched The Changeling--and in soem ways the notiont hat women lie or cause men to hit them hasn't changed at all.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:12:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can't watch CNN (9+ / 0-)

    or Houston local news, or..shit..the only things I can watch without stomach upset is KO and Maddow..and Stewart and Colbert..am I still getting a fair and balanced news consumption????:
    Do I need to retool myself to thinking crime victims are stigmatized for being in the wrong place and the wrong time?
    Am I wrong for wanting to strangle the newscasters for saying shit like this?
    Omigod..they would have a stigma if I did, and I certainly don't won't that..or do I?

    Cowards die many times before their deaths... Shakespeare, Julius Ceasar, II, 2

    by on the cusp on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:07:26 PM PST

  •  Stigma? (7+ / 0-)

    This is one twisted video clip.

    Now, she'll only be remembered for . . .

    There is, of course a "stigma" of abuse that the victim carries, if s/he tries to cover the tracks of the abuser.  The makeup to cover a bruise, calling in sick because the black eye is swollen, etc.

    Time for a trial.

    A bit of a letter-writing campaign to CNN about Kiran Chetrey would not be out of order.

    "You can't worry if it's cold; you can't worry if it's hot; you only worry if you get sick. Because then if you don't get well, you die." - Joaquín Ándujar

    by willb48 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:07:31 PM PST

  •  This stands logic on its head (10+ / 0-)

    "Stigma" is, in theory, one purpose of criminal punishment. Under our system, that punishment is imposed on perpetrators, not victims.

    "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."--Michael Corleone.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:08:07 PM PST

  •  What about the f-ng war? (7+ / 0-)

    What about news that impacts at least 80 percent of the auidence? Is that too much to ask of CNN? Am I forever stigmatized by having to consider this drivel news? What about the children?

    "As of the first of the month, the country is flat broke"-my Dad, discussing economics

    by Krush on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:08:09 PM PST

  •  I was raised differently (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bonsai superstar

    Many people believe that violence never solves anything. I want to agree with them, but I have learned the hard way that sometimes -- as in cases like this -- it is the only permanent solution.

    The best way to deal with Rhianna's apparent abuse might well be to apply a stigma to the guy that hit her, whoever that may be: the stigma of multiple gunshot wounds.

    I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

    by willie horton on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:08:30 PM PST

    •  Calm down (9+ / 0-)

      Jeez.  Multiple gunshots?  Prison is more like it.

      "You can't worry if it's cold; you can't worry if it's hot; you only worry if you get sick. Because then if you don't get well, you die." - Joaquín Ándujar

      by willb48 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:10:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  nah (4+ / 0-)

        Janice Soprano handled it just fine:

        I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

        by willie horton on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:12:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  An alternative approach (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          willie horton

          I remember how Tony handled the clean up

          Watching my fellow liberals howl OMG BETRAYED every 5 seconds is getting kinda lame. Chill, people. - O. Willis

          by Mocha Dem on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:20:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The only thing worse than an abuser (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          willie horton, Coilette

          is an abuser who is also a gangster. I hate gangsters. I never understood the Godfather thing or the Sopranos. Why do we glorify these kinds of people? Maybe that's where this stupid CNN commenter is coming from--from a culture that glorifies violent men. Violent men become heroes to us. Rihanna can afford her own goddam Lamborghini yet she schleps around with this abusive gangster who beats her right before they are both to go on as perfect performers. What a sick culture. I'm just as sick because to me the only thing better than a dead gangster is one who was blown away by his abused spouse.

          Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

          by crose on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:44:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  true dat (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            crose

            If Janice Soprano's response were the generally accepted penalty for domestic abuse, it would be over within a generation.
            (She could have called the cops: in most states, a decent great lawyer would get her off scot-free).

            I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

            by willie horton on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:12:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  When my Dad (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              willie horton, EAColeInEmporia

              was a justice on the Wyoming Supreme Court, he wrote the majority opinion for what was to become known as "battered spouse syndrome" as a compelling reason to kill. There is a point past which some people, whether children or spouses or anyone over whom someone else holds authority, snap and kill their abusers.

              I would never allow someone to hit me more than once. If the first blow were to find its mark, that would be the last thing the hitter would ever feel this side of his testicles being ripped off and shoved up his ass.

              Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

              by crose on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:49:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Re: Godfather and Sopranos (0+ / 0-)

            You assume that the purpose of these shows is to hold these people up as laudable role models. While there are certainly some people who do so, it's a little like holding up Snidely Whiplash or King Lear as role models: Just because their story is the source of compelling drama, it doesn't follow that they're something to be emulated.

            •  No, I don't assume that. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              willie horton, jayden

              The purpose of these shows is to make money for the investors thereof. Violence sells mytharcs and plotlines, whether they are called "compelling drama" or violence as entertainment. If violence didn't sell, the writers would never have sold the stories. When I see kids acting out Soprano assassination scenes and violent deaths, I don't think they are seeing mob violence as compelling drama. I think they are saying, "Cool! Didja see how Jimmy "The Hook" Franco beat that guy to death last night?"

              Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

              by crose on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:44:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  There still seems to be a lot unknown here. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm waiting to pass judgment. We're waiting to find out who leaked the photo of the victim.

    Have you forgotten about jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

    by uc booker on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:08:40 PM PST

  •  If the stigma is real for women working in media (0+ / 0-)

    then it's not wrong for Chetry to say so.

    I think you're way off.

    If there was no stigma in a media where you have to be a Barbie doll to make it, then that'd be one thing. Chetry would be creating a problem just to drum up controversy.

    But I doubt that the stigma isn't pretty real for Barbies like these women.

    •  Um huh? (9+ / 0-)

      Stupid is real for women in the media -- that doesn't make it desirable or right.

      You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. - G.B. Shaw, "Misalliance"

      by gchaucer2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:14:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Chetry wasn't saying it's right was she? (0+ / 0-)

        She was saying it's a problem women have to deal with.

        •  Well then... (5+ / 0-)

          It's only "a problem women have to deal with" because of the kind of bullshit Kiran is spewing right there.

          So again I ask, what's the stigma attached to being a raging, hypocritical dumbass on TV?

          A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

          by Anton Sirius on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:56:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  no, it's a problem women have to deal with (0+ / 0-)

            because of the men and women who look down on victims of abuse.

            talking about it isn't the problem.

            you people are basically arguing to gag our media from talking about issues because those issues are tough.

            but it's not the talking about it you need to be blaming, it's the sexists who stigmatize women you need to vent your anger on.

            your logic is basically the same logic as abstinence only education. you're blaming the talking about it for the underage sex, not the real causes of the underage sex.

            •  Nonsense (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              alnc, churchylafemme, mamamedusa

              Chetny wasn't commenting on those who look down on abuse victims; she was herself looking down on an abuse victim. She wasn't reporting on the existence of a stigma Rihanna might have to deal with, she was stigmatizing Rihanna.

              Chetny didn't say "the stigma she might have to face from some", which would indicate she meant what you suggest. To her, the stigma was assumed fact. "She will face." Abuse victims have a stigma. That's reality in Chetny's world.

              You're projecting what you wish you'd heard onto what Chetny actually said.

              And your analogy is, frankly, laughable. I'm not holding Chetny responsible for Chris Brown's actions, just her own words. Stigmatizing abuse victims doesn't cause abuse, it's just ignorant. And no one (sane) has ever suggested otherwise.

              A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

              by Anton Sirius on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:59:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  doesn't sound like it to me. (0+ / 0-)

                they seem to have been asking if this person would want to go through the public stigma of being a famous abuse victim.

                yes, the stigma was assumed as a fact. exactly.

                they assumed it was there and were talking about it. it seems to be a reality in the world of female media personalities.

                that's what i'm saying.

                i think it's interesting that you claim that i'm projecting what i want to  hear, because that's exactly what you're guilty of.

                if you read back over your comment, it's not even logical.

                it's not the talking about it that's the problem, it's how we treat women who are the victims of rape or abuse that's the problem.

                assuming that these problems exist isn't how they arise any more than assuming that std's are out there is how they get spread.

                •  You're Conflating Two Problems (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mamamedusa

                  Abuse is a problem.

                  Stigmatizing victims of abuse is a separate but related problem.

                  Chetny was guilty of the latter.

                  And yes, TV personalities assuming that abuse victims carry a stigma helps perpetuate the second problem. I'm honestly flabbergasted that anyone could possibly think otherwise.

                  Had Chetny said something like, "Rihanna could be stigmatized by some for this, although such a stigma wouldn't be deserved or justifiable", that would constitute 'talking about' the issue. It opens a line of discussion. Flatly saying "Rihanna will have to deal with the stigma" isn't 'talking about' the issue, any more than saying "Bristol Palin carries the stigma of being a teen mom" constitutes 'talking about' the issue of teen pregnancy.

                  And speaking of not being logical, please explain how Rihanna has any choice in whether to be a "famous abuse victim" or not...

                  A revolution is coming... whether we will it or not. We can affect its character; we cannot alter its inevitability. -- Robert F. Kennedy

                  by Anton Sirius on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 07:10:46 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Ugggghhhhh .....just;...... Uggggghhhh (6+ / 0-)

    It's the constitution, stupid

    by CTMET on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:09:00 PM PST

  •  CNN (11+ / 0-)

    is just about topping Faux News for the sheer number of stoopid idiots -- and vacuous female blatherers.  I'm beginning to think that the second thing on an evaluation of women for a cable news spot has to be -- Stupid -- Check.  We all know what the first thing is.

    You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. - G.B. Shaw, "Misalliance"

    by gchaucer2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:09:26 PM PST

  •  What about (14+ / 0-)

    Tori Amos and Ani Difranco and others that got raped or abused? Maybe I'm just a dirty fucking hippie but it doesn't enter my mind to think of their abusive situations out of nowhere.

    "ENOUGH!" - President Barack Hussein Obama

    by indiemcemopants on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:09:46 PM PST

  •  Idiots (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlackSheep1, lirtydies, moosely2006

    on Headline news...a discussion on how Rihanna had to come forward and tell what she knows.

    Ignorant ...go fuck themselves.

    Yes, the NSA can hear you.

    by Muggsy on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:10:27 PM PST

  •  Blaming the victim is engrained (10+ / 0-)

    especially when when the right-wing doesn't want to take responsibility (uh, do they ever?) EX: You know those stupid people in NOLA didn't have the sense to leave before Katrina hit, and those idiots took out mortgages they knew they couldn't afford.

  •  That whole interview was fucked up. (25+ / 0-)

    Domestic violence is the number one violence against women under the radar.  So, many things are attached to it, but the number one is self confidence.  How the fuck is CNN going to assume anything in the instance of Rihanna?  And we all must understand that she is only 20 years old.

    A beat down by a man is a beat down.  I don't care if Chris Brown had to give Rihanna the keys of that care or throw them in the trash, his ass should have walked away.  But he chose to ball his fist up and assault her.

    And lastly, ladies, don't make any excuses for a man to touch you, period.  I don't care if you even started it, he will end it and it will not be good for you.  Don't make excuses for the assaulter.

    And TMZ was fucked up leaking that picture out there and it did come from inside the LAPD.  I hope all involved are fired and prosecuted to this highest letter of the law.  The law is made to PROTECT the victim, not let the guilty eventually get away, which may be the case here for Brown.

  •  So much wrong here... (15+ / 0-)

    So because Rihanna got beat up that's all we're going to remember her for?  She got beat up by a Michael Jackson wannabe and that's all we're going to remember HIM for, but why does she have to have this be the signature moment of HER career and life?

    Ask Tina Turner... or Cicely Tyson... are they remembered for being victims or survivors of abuse with grit and determination?  The latter!

    Guaranteed she'll have songwriters BEGGING to be the one to deliver her song of triumph when she gets back into the studio.  Guaranteed she'll have a new man on her arm within a few months.

      •  And deserved to do so. (0+ / 0-)

        And when I wrote about his proclivities, in response to a diary here which said basically he was a musical genius and R&B guitarist so who cares that he knocked Tina around a bit, I got some pretty nasty comments from a few people. I was actually pretty shocked by that response.  

        Main diff is that Chris Brown got known on his own--Ike, for all his talent, was on the downslide before Tina left him, and his drug abuse made him so unreliable no one would hire him because he wouldn't show up for gigs or would show up so fucked up on coke he couldn't play.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:00:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  actually, Chris won't be remembered for this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alnc, moosely2006

      either unless someone makes a movie about it.

      You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

      by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:18:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes he will. (6+ / 0-)

        Chris Brown has to work in a business with many known R&B, Hip-Hop writers, producers, etc., period.  Many are coming out against him.  Jay-Z signed Rihanna when he was president of Def-Jam.  He already stated Brown is a dead man walking.

        The Hip-Hop community is a very mixed bag, but how can a known R&B singer assault another known R&B singer and it not hurt his career?

        Much of the impact will be on the back of Rihanna and how she will emerge from this.  She will come out in a much stronger position than Brown will.

        That leaked photo saved Brown's ass.  It will be hard to prosecute without the argument of "taint".

        Rihanna is on the cusp of becoming a superstar, and Brown will be remembered as the man who gave her a beat down.  Simple as that.

        •  No, he won't. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          churchylafemme

          Chris Brown has plenty of time to redeem his image, he's only 19.

          Given the fact that we don't know the full situation or how Rihanna feels about it, I think it's premature to say that this incident will define Chris' career.

          You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

          by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:28:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't care how old he is. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pkohan

            When I was growing up, one thing BOTH of my parents told my brothers is you don't hit your sister or any lady, period.

            There is much more of a back story going on here.  There is strong rumor that is this not the first incident with Brown against Rihanna.

            There are millions of wannabee Brown's out there, he is not a special magic bullet or potion.  He was just coming to the height and now this.

            He may stick around but it will be a long time before he becomes a super star.

            One thing the public don't like is men hitting/beating women.  He will have to do an apology tour to even SEE if he can still be viable.

            •  Oh please. People thought R. Kelly wouldn't have (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              alnc, Justin Alexander

              a career after his incident, and he did. He has plenty of time to rehabilitate himself. Right now we are in the moment, so it's easy to say "he's doomed" but he still has lots of time to fix his image. He can easily become a poster child for this and a way to get the issue out in the open more than it is.

              And like I said, we don't know the details of the incident or their relationship. I'm not saying she's to blame at all, I'm just saying we don't know everything.

              But I'm not going to debate you on this, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

              :o)

              You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

              by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:35:08 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  But R. Kelly was caught having sex. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pkohan, gusguy

                With a questionable minor, and I know folks her in Chi who know him and that house where the "alledged" stuff happened.  The postponing of the trial and in COOK COUNTY, saved R. Kelly.  If Kelly was tried in Lake County or DuPage it would have BEEN ONE FOR HIM.

                But for Brown, when you have a woman beaten down, for the world to see, how in holy hell can any man spin it justifiable to beat her?  And his largest mistake was apologizing.  If he didn't do shit, why the need?

                That is a hard one.  And we do disagree on this one.

                •  Don't know how a man could spin it (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mamamedusa

                  but as I mention in another comment, at least one seventh-grade boy within my hearing justified it by claiming that she'd given him herpes, a claim that I'm sure has no basis in fact and was merely invented by this boy or one of his friends as a way of arguing that the whole incident was the female's fault.

                  "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk." --Ian McDonald

                  by Geenius at Wrok on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:43:14 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I didn't say it was justifiable, I said he has (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Justin Alexander

                  plenty of time to rehabilitate himself. That doesn't mean he justifies it. That could mean he owns up to it, takes his lumps for it, and comes out a better person in the end. People want to be able to forgive superstars for their transgressions.

                  Seeing how it appears to be a one-time incident, and we don't know all of the facts of the incident or the relationship, I think it's wrong to rush to judgment on this. That's not saying that what he did wasn't WRONG, or that he shouldn't be punished as the law allows.

                  All I'm saying is this incident won't define either of their careers in the long run.

                  You know, some people are like slinkies, they're good for nothin'! But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

                  by Muzikal203 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:44:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Once you beat up a woman... (0+ / 0-)

            ... that's what you are remembered for.  Period.  Lord knows no one is going to remember his MJ/Usher-lite music.

  •  Well, clearly she provoked him. (4+ / 4-)

    She will have to carry that cross.  She just was not able to get Chris Brown to relax.  She needs to take responsibility.  Maybe this "stigma" hit to her career will be just what she needs to think outside the box and come up with new and inspired ways to keep Chris Brown happy.  And calm.  Doesn't it say in that there Bible somewhere that it is the woman's responsibility to make sure the man is happy?  You know, it IS the Bible.  I guess she is lucky, he could have found justification to stone her.
    That, is it.  She is really just lucky.  She should send him some flowers.

  •  "one-time" victim kept making me shake (18+ / 0-)

    my head. Is twice a victim better? and, where is the "stigma" for the man who beat her?

    Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:12:37 PM PST

  •  uggggg, seriously? (7+ / 0-)

    shame on CNN for this victim blaming crap

  •  Abuse of women seems popular (7+ / 0-)

    with the Taliban class of citizens in our country.  They might not necessarily be abusing women themselves, but condoning this behavior is enlightening as to who they really are.  

    "Politics is not left, right or center ... It's about improving people's lives." -Paul Wellstone

    by maggiejean on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:16:21 PM PST

  •  The leaked photo (14+ / 0-)

    is just another way to put pressure on Rihanna to drop this case, to forgive him etc...

    We always blame the woman for a man losing it. It sounds cynical but society has to be shocked enough to stop making excuses for abusive behavior. Whether it's child abuse, rape or this kind of straight out physical abuse there is a lot of pressure to "explain" the behavior and then pressure the abused to move on.

    I think it's disgusting and I hope Rihanna stands up for herself.

    ~ Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase ~ Martin Luther King, Jr ~

    by vcmvo2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:16:22 PM PST

  •  That's CNN for ya (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alnc, moosely2006, bluegrass50, earicicle

    dredging for viewers.

    " ... or a baby's arm holding an apple!"

    by Lavocat on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:17:26 PM PST

  •  At least Chetry will never bear the stigma of (26+ / 0-)

    being a journalist.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:18:12 PM PST

  •  You're blaming the wrong party (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlackSheep1, sviscusi, MiscastDice

    They didn't say that she "asked for it", they simply admitted that being the victim of abuse (or rape, for that matter) is stigmatizing for women in our society. Why do you think that so many women cover up for their partners? Because they like being hit? I don't think so. Women cover up because they are ashamed and because they know that they will be judged for "letting" themselves be beaten.

    It is quite likely that if the abuse were private instead of public, if she hadn't had to cancel an important event because of it, Rihanna would have chosen to not prosecute her boyfriend. Her agent would have known that this event would dominate her career for years to come. Many career women make that choice. Given that she didn't have that choice, her only chance for redemption in the eyes of society is to cooperate with police in prosecuting her abuser. I'm not saying that prosecuting abuse is a bad thing - but it certainly reflects badly on society that a woman must do this in order to prove that she didn't want to be abused in the first place.

    It would be nice if there were other options on the table. He could agree to extensive counseling and probation, she could move on with her life, and maybe even get together with him again later if he showed that he had learned to control his anger(young people do stupid things - I don't know if this represents a pattern or a fluke, and neither does anybody else right now). It's a shame that this event has to mark both of them forever, overshadowing her talent and probably destroying his career. But... society will have it's due, and the script in this case involves her becoming a "survivor" and him being cast into the shadows forever.

    •  Your comment upsets me (7+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stiela, Errol, jxg, mijita, roubs, arlene, robertacker13

      IMHO and with all due respect, your comment just shows me that society has a LONG ASS WAY to go before it understands the dynamics of abuse.

      Among your many misconceptions and misinformation - like abuse hurts them BOTH??? WTF?

      Your 'counseling' idea is absolutely the WORST treatment for an abusive man.

      Oh, this is just because he has some issues that need to be talked through?

      NO. This make it WORSE.

      I could spend all night with you on this, but you won't get it until you, yourself are someday abused. And if you don't educate yourself, you are a prime target for an abuser.

      EDUCATE YOURSELF NOW, Before it's too late. Please.

      Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

      by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:56:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lock them up and throw away the key? (0+ / 0-)

        Since when did liberals decide that people who screw up deserve to be locked up with the key thrown away? I never said that he should be just "talked" to. I said "counseling and probation". Unless we give people probation without their being convicted of a crime, then I don't see how you could suggest that I said that this could be "just talked through".

        I have been abused. I am no longer a target. I've learned to stand up for myself. I actually learned that at a very early age. I've also learned that abuser's are human beings, not monster's who deserve to be labelled forever for their crimes. Anger management is ESSENTIAL for people who abuse their partners. Jail won't help him. And yes, he deserves to be helped. Abuse hurts both parties. He is losing a good woman, his reputation, and, if he has any sense of decency (which he seems to) his self-esteem. He is a young human being who screwed up, not a monster who deserves to be shunned forever.

        And, finally, your assumption that people cannot be redeemed shows a lack of understanding of the dynamics of abuse. Men (and women) abuse because they lack the ability to communicate effectively and direct their anger in positive, effective ways. Counseling can help people learn to communicate and to control their anger. That will benefit not only potential future partners, but also anybody who crosses their paths in life.

        •  You are very misinformed (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stiela, 2lucky, mamamedusa

          counseling FEEDS abuse. It keeps the focus right where the abuser wants it - ON HIM.

          And how many men on probation have killed their partners? How many women walking out of the courthouse with their PFA's in hand have been killed?

          LUNDY BANCROFT. Google him. He will help you get your thinking straight.

          Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

          by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:16:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  And btw (0+ / 0-)

          I never said anything about jail. READ.

          And one last thing - an abuser doesn't have a problem with his anger - HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH HIS PARTNER'S ANGER

          Just like in this case when she didn't want to give him a blowjob and she had the "nerve" to get angry when he wouldn't allow her to say 'no.'

          Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

          by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:19:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  thought I read somewhere that counselling (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stiela, mijita, Foxwizard, the girl

            rarely works in spousal abuse situations (abusers rarely can accept responsibility for their actions).

            •  You're correct (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Foxwizard

              couples counseling is absolutely the most dangerous thing for a woman involved with an abusive man.

              Counseling will help HER - but you can't make an abusive man change a thing with counseling. In fact, abusive men, rarely, if ever change.

              Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

              by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:02:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Couples counseling... COUPLES (0+ / 0-)

                This man Bancroft says that couples counseling is not a solution for marital abuse. That makes sense, since the problem is not with the relationship dynamics, it is with the way the abuser handles himself. He does not say that men cannot benefit from counseling. He is also, by the way, quite controversial. He is considered quite extreme in his views. I hope he stays that way - I'd hate for more people to start thinking that people who do bad things are not redeemable and should all simply be locked up forever. I'm no bleeing heart liberal. I believe that actions should have consequences. But... I'm not willing to simply accept that human beings can't change if they're given tools to do so.

                •  I worry that you are convincing yourself (0+ / 0-)

                  to go back to the man you are alluding to in your posts. Please read Bancroft's book, and no, he is not controversial, so don't use that as the excuse not to read it.

                  Even if you are convinced that your man is a great guy inside when he isn't abusing you, you might want to read it just to convince yourself that you are right.

                  Call a domestic violence hotline and tell them your story, and see if I'm wrong in my advice.

                  Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                  by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:16:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "When he isn't abusing me?" (0+ / 0-)

                    You seem to have read something into my writing that is not there. I WAS abused, emotionally and physically, by a domineering and controlling father. I was attracted to men who had the same characteristics until I broke the pattern and learned to stand up for myself. I am presently married to a man who is not violent, not controlling, and not abusive in any way (unless you count his hogging the Wii). He's not just a great guy inside, he's a great guy in every way, and I only wish that more people could find partners like him.

                    oh... and he made a mistake once. It wasn't a violent crime, but it was quite serious. What is was is not my story to tell, but he changed his life completely and is in no danger of repeating. I've made mistakes, too. Most human's have. There is a difference between people who are chronic repeat offenders and people who make mistakes and learn from them. Time will tell which category Rihanna's former boyfriend belongs in.

                •  I think they're saying that some kinds of (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dianem, the girl

                  personality problems are difficult to change and don't respond to all kinds of treatment. I believe abusers respond to authority figures - iirc they can't control their rage, but it can be disarmed if they are in structured situations and have ongoing contact with authority figures.

                  •  An abuser is smart (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    arlene, mamamedusa

                    in his quest for power and control, he will control his behavior to the extent of what he thinks can get away with.

                    That's sometimes why it seems he is "healed" in front of authority figures. He is actually manipulating them.

                    That's why when the police come to the house the woman is hysterical after having been beaten and he is a cool operator.

                    "See officers, see how out of control she is? She attacked me..."

                    Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                    by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:02:38 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're talking about a limited subset (0+ / 0-)

                      Not all men or women who abuse their partner's are cool, calm sociopaths who carefully manipulate their partners and the system in some kind of sick control game. I'm sure that there are some, but there are also people who hit their partners because they can't handle life and need someone weak to take out their anger on, there are people who hit out because they don't know how to do anything else, who just lose their temper. There are people with emotional problems and/or mental illnesses who need medication and counseling to be more controlled.

                      I'm sure that police officers will tell you that not all abuser's are calmly standing by when they arrive, ready to claim that it was their partner's who were aggressive. Many, if not most, are still angry and hostile and express that anger to the police in ways that cause serious problems. Not all abuser's can simply turn it on and off at a whim. People aren't that simple.

                      •  Again, this is the typical (0+ / 0-)

                        stereotypical belief that abusers simply "lose their tempers" they don't calculate, they don't systematically wear away their partner's resistance, hey Rhianna has a bashed in face, but let's wait and see if he's REALLY an 'abuser' or if he is someone we should hold and comfort because he has "anger issues."

                        Bullshit. Gobbledygook. Dangerous stuff for any woman to believe.

                        Please, if you are being abused, know there are real answers for you and don't get them here in a blog. Call a hotline, read some of the books I've mentioned - and even if you've left your abuser multiple times and gone back to him - know that each time you are getting close to the goal of no contact.

                        Women leave their abusers multiple times before they can stay away for good. Baby steps. But you'll get there.

                        Don't buy into this 'temper' crap. Abuse is a choice, not a loss of control.

                        Wanna know how to tell? Ask your abuser if he's ever called his mother a bitch.

                        He'll look at you like you just asked him if he sells drugs to elementary school kids.

                        No, he'll say, that would be wrong. His Mother? No way.

                        Yea, but then ask yourself how many times he's called YOU a bitch.

                        Why doesn't he 'lose' his temper with his mom? Why can he control himself with her?

                        Because you are PROPERTY in his eyes. You do not exist as a human being. Mama does.

                        Loss of temper my ass.

                        Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                        by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 02:44:19 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  It depends on a lot of factors (0+ / 0-)

              Why is the abuser abusing, what kind of counseling program is being used and how motivated the person is to change. Results vary. It's like smoking cessation programs. You will hear a lot of stories about how high the failure rate is for people who try to quit smoking, and it's true - individual programs have very low success rates. In fact, on any given attempt at quitting, a person stands a very low chance of success. But a lot of people still end up quitting smoking. The trick is finding the right program for each person and giving them both support and motivation to change their habits. Some people still won't quit - but that doesn't mean that all stop-smoking programs are worthless.

        •  Ever looked at the recidivism rate (8+ / 0-)

          for DV criminals? HIGH. VERY HIGH. For counseling to work, you have to want to change. Most abusers do not. Some of the characteristics of a batterer are a rigid notion of male-female relationships and sex roles,  a need to control his par6tner, and a denial that what he did was wrong. Those are damned hard characteristics to change even if you want to change.

          First arrest? Give him counseling in jail.   After that, I want LONG sentences. If he beat up a stranger, he'd do more time than for half-killing his wife.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:52:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This isn't spousal abuse (0+ / 0-)

            This man is not a chronic, long-term abuser. This is a young man who lost his temper. He has a reputation as a normally calm person, not a control freak. It is possible that he simply has been covering up his actual personality. It is also possible that he screwed up one time. It's a damn shame that people are willing to write him off completely. I used to think that compassion was part of the liberal persona. I guess I was wrong.

            IMO, people deserve a chance to have a life even if they screw up. They deserve a second chance, especially when they are young. Unless he has done something to indicate that he is beyond redemption, I'm not willing to write him off. Whether she does or not is her business, although I would be surprised and disappointed if she simply put this behind her without demanding accountability from him.

            •  This post is worrying me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              i8pikachu

              please call a domestic violence hotline. Please.

              Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

              by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:09:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

                Why should I waste their time? I'm not being abused, nor am I in a relationship that is likely to end up as abusive (happily married, gentle man, loving partner). Besides... domestic violence hotlines are designed to get women out of abusive situations. That is as it should be. Nobody is suggesting that women should simply stay with abuser's. What I'm disputing is that you should write off men who abuse forever. (Actually, while we're at it - it's not just about men - women can be abuser's as well).

                •  I disagree with nearly every point you make (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mijita, arlene, mamamedusa, i8pikachu

                  and the reality does not bear you out. So please accept my good wishes and good luck.

                  I encourage any woman who is being abused or thinks she might be abused to sort out the myth from the reality - as we see here, the myths are alive and well.

                  Don't take my word for anything, call a domestic abuse hotline, read ANY book on domestic violence - PATRICIA EVANS - LUNDY BANCROFT - and learn for yourself what you are facing. There is a way out, it takes time and effort, but when you've had enough, you will be able to get free.

                  Read about the Stockholm Syndrome and Traumatic Bonding, there are real psychological processes that are keeping you hooked. But they can be overcome.

                  And life is better on the other side. Even if it's only because you won't cry every day.

                  But get your information from a professional in Domestic Violence - not from dianem or anyone here, even me. But start getting the information and sock it away for when you will need to call on it.

                  Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                  by the girl on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:24:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I worked on a domestic violence hotline (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dianem, churchylafemme

                    And I think you are being unfair to dianem. From speaking to women it's clear to me that there is a difference between chronic abusers and an episode of abuse. I would support a whatever a woman's decision was in either case, but the difference does exist.

                    When you say things like "

                    reality does not bear you out"

                    What does that really mean? My experiences and the research i've seen do back up some of her points, and some of yours. But the idea that counseling a man feeds abuse is nonsense and shouldn't be put forth with only an anecdote to back it up. Counseling isn't a cure all and doesn't work in every case, but it can and has improved lives.

                    •  Don't know how much training you have (0+ / 0-)

                      in DV, but you do not seem to be with the experts on this. Maybe you were volunteering, and while that is noble, but saying the counseling does not feed abuse is wrong and dangerous.

                      It does. Be very careful because an abused woman now could be reading this, and looking desperately for a way to heal the man she loves.

                      Counseling for the man will only make it worse for her. More dangerous.

                      So be careful giving advice when you don't know the reality. Please.

                      There is no such thing as "an episode of abuse." If you are still answering the hotline, please become more informed.

                      Did you see Rihanna's face??????

                      Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                      by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 07:02:50 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  He's with the experts (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        roubs

                        Just not your favorite experts. Most experts do not agree with what you are saying. Counseling is generally recognized as a good thing. Sometimes people get into fights and one violent act happens, and then no more. That actually happened to me in my last relationship. He hit me - once. In the chest. It didn't do major damage, but it scared the hell out of both of us. We talked, and it never happened again. Eventually, we broke up over other issues.

                        Counseling does not feed abuse. It may not always fix abuse, but it does not make it worse. I actually did some homework on this, because I was thinking I might have missed something. Apparently, the "one size fits all" therapy that the courts tend to apply is not effective. This is not surprising, since abuser's don't all fall into the same mode. But counseling  can still be effective in many cases.

                        One other thing... you said elsewhere that abusees should leave because they won't have to cry every day. That feeds a common myth that abuse is a constant, that it happens every day and that is why people who are abused live in fear. That's not true. Most abuse is sporadic. Victims live in fear not because they know they will be hit or otherwise abused today,but because they don't know whether or not they will "do something" to "deserve" punishment on a given day. It's terrifying to go through life wondering what you will do today to inspire a beating. You walk on eggshells all of the time. Then, when it happens, you try to figure out how you could have stopped it (it's never the abuser's fault, of course). People in abusive relationships don't sit in a corner and cry all day. Most of the time they celebrate that they did a good job, that they were good enough to not have deserved being hit that particular day.  A good part of abuse treatment is simply helping victims understand that it's not their fault, and that they are not responsible for the actions of the abuser.

                        •  I won't respond to you again (0+ / 0-)

                          because you insist on perpetuating these stereotypical responses. It seems to me you are protecting someone (a brother perhaps?) in your postings here, and they become dangerous to women reading them.

                          Here's my other favorite author - Alice Miller. I'm sure you'd debunk her too.

                          I'm pretty well-versed on the subject, and what you say is just dangerous to other women.

                          Counseling is not effective nor recommended for abusive men.

                          Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                          by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 02:01:02 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You are delusional (0+ / 0-)

                            First I'm supposedly in an abusive relationship, then I must be protecting my brother. You don't even know my brother. You are not well-versed on the subject. I looked up your references, and they don't say what you say they say. You are carefully selecting bits and pieces from various sources to create a world view that is biased and misleading. What you are saying is dangerous to women, because you seem to believe that 1) all abuser's are psychopaths or sociopaths and 2) abuser's cannot ever change their behavior. The reality is far more complicated than you are able to see.

                            I agree with one thing you say: that abused people should call a support line and hopefully find a way to leave their spouse. The abuser will not change if there is no cost to not changing. Actually... make that two things. People should not get their advice on critical issues from people on newsgroups.

                  •  I agree (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Foxwizard, the girl

                    The perception of who Chris Brown was in the media is not who is in reality.

                  •  Another awesome author (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Foxwizard, mamamedusa

                    is the late Kathy Krajco who defined what absolute power looks like:

                    What is absolute power? It's absolute control, possession. Surely you have recognized the lust for it in the bizarre crimes committed by psychopaths. Mike DeBardeleben, a sexual sadist serving a life sentence wrote in his journal that it is "to force her to undergo suffering without her being able to defend herself."

                    "Without her being able to defend herself" are the key words. It isn't enough to torment the victim: this must be done in a way that keeps her from resisting. That's absolute power, possession...

                    This is the ultimate in mental cruelty = making the victim bend over for it. Then the sick-o gets to pretend that the victim truly does "want it," has ceased to exist as a person (with a free will) and is but an appendage of his that he thus "proves" his absolute power over.

                    All malignant narcissists(abusers) do this in one way of another: they don't merely abuse, they FORCE SUBMISSION TO ABUSE. This makes them God, whose punishing wounds we are to shamefully accept as our fault. We are not to resist: we are to simply hang our heads as deserving of them...

                    "What Makes Narcissists Tick" pgs. 104-105 -I have a link to Krajco's site on my blogroll.

                    Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                    by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:59:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This is not your typical abuser (0+ / 0-)

                      This is a description of a psychopath. A "sexual sadist". This is not a typical example of a batterer.

                      •  Again, no response to you (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Foxwizard

                        but to clarify for any woman out there -

                        THIS IS THE TYPICAL ABUSIVE MENTALITY - the only difference between a psychopath and an abusive man is how much they think they can get away with. No matter what you call him - the ultimate goal of an abuser, psychopath or malignant narcissist is power and control - I REPEAT KRAJCO -

                        "Without her being able to defend herself" are the key words. It isn't enough to torment the victim: this must be done in a way that keeps her from resisting. That's absolute power, possession...

                        This is the ultimate in mental cruelty = making the victim bend over for it. Then the sick-o gets to pretend that the victim truly does "want it," has ceased to exist as a person (with a free will) and is but an appendage of his that he thus "proves" his absolute power over.

                        Dianem is taking the words I said and twisting them to fit what she wants them to fit. I know this pattern well.

                        Another excellent author - Robert Hare PhD., Without Conscience.

                        Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                        by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 02:11:04 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Wrong again (0+ / 0-)

                          Psychopaths do not feel remorse for their actions. Many abuser's do feel remorse.

                          Here is a good starting point for less biased info:

                          •  Wikipedia is your expert? (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm done trying.

                            Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                            by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:27:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Abusers can post on Wiki too you know (0+ / 0-)

                            right? Anyone can be an 'expert' there right? Forget the books from the established experts, you say - go to Wiki? Yikes.

                            And as for remorse, both psychopaths and abusers feel it, but only for themselves. If remorse gets them what they want, heck, they'd apologize to a stone.

                            If smiling and telling a woman he loves her most in the world will get her hooked, he'll do that. A psychopath too - that's why the women hop in a van and end up dead.

                            MANIPULATION. Remorse, love, sorrow, swaggar, kindess, generosity - these are ACTS for an abuser or a psychopath (which in my opinion and that of the experts - are the same thing, just different degrees of it).

                            I hope someday you understand, because knowledge is power. I'll keep you in my thoughts, because there's a reason you feel compelled to defend abusive men, so there's one in your life somewhere.

                            It's common for women who love abusive men to come to their defense. So it's a natural reaction, but a dangerous one for another woman out there whose life may be in danger.

                            Maybe you are okay, but there are thousands of women who aren't, and you seem to overlook that fact. This isn't only about you. Your 'expertise' just might not be correct. I've read these books, they are here at my side. I know them inside and out. Yet you tell me after a google search that I don't know what I am talking about?

                            I really don't care about this argument with you , my posts are for those women out there who are struggling. They are not alone and they can overcome this with accurate information.

                            This thread started out criticizing a stereotyping of 'the abused woman' in order to CHANGE that perception and destroy those myths. Somehow you didn't get that.

                            If any woman is out there suffering, check out Bancroft's book. He's on your side and he can help you. You can get out of this, just keep moving forward at the pace you can handle. But keep moving forward.

                            Not to throw shoes is the crime. Not to be outraged is the crime.

                            by the girl on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:46:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  You don't know that he (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mamamedusa

              isn't. He's young--but violence against high school girls is all too common. You are describing his public persona--and many abusers have a rep as greta guys, adores his wife,a good family man, etc.  You don't know that his public persona is the truth any more than I do.

              The reason I suggested counseling in jail is that all too often abusers, even first time ones, drop out. Many hit their SO while 9in a program. If they are in jail, they can't reoffend, and they are compelled to attend the program. I'd want more counseling as part of a parole program for early release. I am all for giving first offenders a chance, but I want to make sure the victim is safe first. That is always my priority--the one who suffered the beating.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:18:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you make it clear that he will go to jail... (0+ / 0-)

                ...if he drops out, then he won't drop out. Judges love to make examples of celebrities who violate probation. Besides, this guys only shot at a career right now is running the redemption circuit. He has to find some traumatic cause for his problems, get therapy, and profess how sorry he is for what he did (unfortunately for his publicist, he can't do that until the police have settled with him - anything he says right now can be used against him).

  •  Cable news blames homeowners for the meltdown (20+ / 0-)

    so why not blame women for being beaten?

    It's blame the victim 24/7 on CNN.

    I thought America moved past this kind of thinking 25 years ago.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:20:37 PM PST

  •  how terribly sad (7+ / 0-)

    This subtle but persistent sexism shows how much work remains to be done in our country.

    The fact that Rihanna experienced this should have no bearing on how people think of her. And while she's certainly right to be private about it now, I hope that maybe her case will give other survivors the courage to speak out.

  •  The victim will be victimized by her victimhood (7+ / 0-)

    I get it.

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:24:11 PM PST

  •  Reasserting a stigma on women who "bring (8+ / 0-)

    victimization upon themselves" has been at the top of the conservative / fundamentalist coalition's agenda since the early 1970's.

    All you have had to do to know this is to listen to the repug comentators and evangelical preachers. Women who get pregnant out of wedlock, rape victims, victims of domestic violence, women who are assaulted; they are all "whores", in the GOP lexicon, so of course they deserved it.

    This is a strong theme in all the so-called "pro-life" and "pro-family" groups and their propaganda.

    It is the most repgunanat thing they've done; uh, besides seek to undermine democracy, assert a facist dictatorship, steal us blind and complain because they aren't the only ones getting subsidies from taxpayers.

  •  ROFL n/t (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    irishwitch

    "My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total...I have finally been included in we, the people." --Barbara Jordan

    by MsDrema on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:27:13 PM PST

  •  Jodie Foster? (5+ / 0-)

    was supposed to be remembered as the woman that Hinckley had a crush on. Now we go "Hinckley? That's a familiar name...oh yeah, the Reagan nut."

    •  Maybe 1/10,000 Rihanna fans... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shahryar

      know who Brown is.

      Other than getting himself in pics with her.

      The girl is 19, maybe turning 20 ??? She picks one loser for a beau -- so nobody is going to remember that, either.

      Droogie is as Droogie does....

      by vets74 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:33:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Turned 21 this week. (0+ / 0-)

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:45:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  That is such total bullshit (0+ / 0-)

        Maybe 1/10,000 Rihanna fans...
        know who Brown is.

        His success predates hers and he has been in a lot more movies than she has.  BLACK GIRLS IN GENERAL know who Chris Brown is, and obviously a lot more than 1/10,000 of Rihanna's fans are black girls.

        I guarantee you 100% of Barack Obama's daughters know who Chris Brown is.

        The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

        by ge0rge on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:09:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I so need to change my username (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shahryar

      But I don't want to give up my number

      Attention Lurkers! Choose your username carefully.

      "As of the first of the month, the country is flat broke"-my Dad, discussing economics

      by Krush on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:43:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another good reason to cancel cable - this is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlackSheep1

    just what I am talking about when I say teevee sucks.

    ... the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred.

    by Tirge Caps on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:30:39 PM PST

  •  If you want some REAL misogyny . . . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irishwitch, mamamedusa

    I recently overheard a seventh-grade boy arguing that Chris Brown was justified in beating up Rihanna because she'd given him herpes.

    I have no idea where that rumor got started or to what extent it's true. My guess is that it's your typical cognitive dissonance–reducing, victim-blaming defense mechanism on the part of kids who are accustomed to identifying with the dominant male and who feel the need to cast the female as worse.

    "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk." --Ian McDonald

    by Geenius at Wrok on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:31:18 PM PST

  •  That's funny (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mijita, moosely2006

    all I've been thinking since I've been seeing her photos is "wow, who is this hotty?  why have I never heard of her?  I wonder how I missed her work."

    I definately wasn't thinking, "darn ... too bad I didn't hear more about her.  but then when you factor in that abuse victim thing ... yuck. who needs it."

    But the anchors from CNN must know more about what the public thinks than ... well ... you know ... the public.

    Must have been all that street experience she scooped up working for those journalistic giants ... over at Fox News.

    "(Our) stories are singular, but our destiny is shared, and a new dawn of American leadership is at hand."

    by Detroit Mark on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:31:33 PM PST

  •  One of the things (6+ / 0-)

    that really turns me off to the 24 hour cable newscycle media is the obvious need for these people to drone on and on mindlessly to fill airtime.

    I mean it's obvious.  If anyone should be dealing with possible long-term stigma, he should.  

    Blame the victim, indeed.

    When it's Wall Street it's called a bailout; when it's Main Steet it's called Socialism. Funny how that works.

    by MacJimi on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:32:01 PM PST

  •  Put's the post by Amada in context. (5+ / 0-)

    As Kos highlighted today

    Amanda Marcotte has a fascinating meditation on relationships and power, concluding:

       The one thing I think really helps build women up so they can get out of bad or abusive relationships is being single for awhile.  It’s not the magic bullet, but living by yourself and realizing that you are a full human being without a man to define you means that a major obstacle (who am I without him?) to leaving bad relationships is mitigated.  I’m finally in a happy, healthy relationship, and the irony is that this is also a time when I know that if I had to leave, I could easily do so.  But then again, maybe that’s the catch-22 of healthy relationships---it’s easier to have them if both people involved are find on their own.

    You really out to read it. There is plenty of food for thought.

    "They pour syrup on shit and tell us it's hotcakes." Meteor Blades

    by JugOPunch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:35:15 PM PST

  •  Kiran, never in danger of a (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alnc, Krush, icebergslim

    Mensa membership.  Is the stigma of having said something stupid on live TV going to stick with her for the rest of her career....

    Every time history repeats itself, the price goes up... Mind Sorbet

    by Pithy Cherub on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:36:12 PM PST

    •  He should NEED to deal with that stigma, but, (0+ / 0-)

      he won't necessarily have to.
      Even though he was "more of a Jonas brother than a Jay-Z", the fact remains that there was a lot of money to be made (at one time at least) by striking a misogynist pose in rap.  It wasn't stigma; it was APPLAUDED.  Not by "respectable" people, of course, but that's just irrelevant if you are going to make millions off the rebellious audience as OPPOSED to the respectable one.

      Luckily for the good guys in this case,
      Chris Brown had a sufficiently clean-cut image
      (as OPPOSED to a gangsta-rapper one) that HE WILL
      be severely damaged by this, unless he actually
      becomes an activist for the other side, unless he
      actually makes PSAs about it and puts a song on the charts about how you should never do this and how sorry he is.

      The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

      by ge0rge on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:07:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You need to send this (12+ / 0-)

    comment to CNN. Remind them that this is 2009, not 1909. Why aren't they talking about Chris Brown's "stigma" of being charged with abusing a woman? If you look at their words, he isn't even mentioned. There is Rihanna, there is the abuse. Brown is somehow peripheral to this, as if the abuse were some kind of force of its own, like a disease or a natural disaster.

    I think it is interesting, because that is the kind of language that is almost always used  when we discuss abuse and rape. It is always passive: "She was raped." We never say "A man raped her." You even get whole labels that are passive: "She was a battered wife." "She was in an abusive relationship." vs. "Her husband battered her." or "Her boyfriend abused her."  The term "abusive relationship," in particular, sounds like she was in a car accident. It evokes that kind of pity as well: "Too bad. Tragic. But accidents happen, there's no getting around that."

    Thinking about it, we use that language with a lot of victims. "He was abused as a child" vs. "His parents abused him."  "He was mugged on the subway." vs. "Someone mugged him on the subway."

    I'm no linguist (no offense to linguists, but I wouldn't want to be) but I'd be curious to know how things are phrased in other languages.

    "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

    by Reepicheep on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:40:24 PM PST

    •  1909 wasn't even 1909 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Reepicheep

      The idea that spousal abuse was okay in the past is not correct.  The tolerance level has changed, though. A domestic case that began and ended as a shoving match was not charged as domestic abuse as it is almost always is today so I think it's important to recognize the difference before we rewrite history.

  •  Rhianna should ignore Chretry (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alnc, lirtydies, Sister Havana

    Rihanna can choose to be a survivor. She can take her life back into her own hands and make it hers again. She can choose to be a "victim", or she can become a "survivor" and grow and learn and become a stronger, wiser woman.

    There are many advocacy groups out there where she can get help and support and a shoulder to cry on when needed.

    If Chetry thinks crime victims are forever stigmatized - I can tell her that this crime victim made the choice to be a SURVIVOR and I reject the stigma label completely.

    {{{{{Rihanna}}}}}

    The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes. -5.75, -7.18

    by Rogneid on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:41:49 PM PST

  •  If we're talking RnB and domestic abuse (0+ / 0-)

    Check out Jemelia's wonderful song "Thank You" for an indication of the level of bullshit that Kiran Chetry is talking. Fuck that.

  •  they've been doing this all week (7+ / 0-)

    and that's the least of it.
    the media have been portraying this whole "incident" as if they were both victims. like they were both beaten to a pulp. and extending "sympathies" to the "couple" - every time i listen to it i want to barf. disgusting.
    Poor Chris poor, his stepfather was mean, poor Chris, this will affect his career. Are they kidding me?!!!

    •  It is remarkable that this so-called (6+ / 0-)

      celebrity apparently beat the shit out of his celebrity girlfriend hours before they were to appear at the Grammys.

      She has had to cancel a whole bunch of concerts because the beating to her face was so vicious.  I hope she sues his ass AT LEAST for that.  Apparently he also strangled her until she passed out, then ran off.  She could have died.  

      His career needs to be OVER.  Scumbag.  I hope Jay-Z steps in to make sure he never works again in the entertainment industry.

      My heroes have the heart to live the life I want to live.

      by JLFinch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:09:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I just found out (0+ / 0-)

    that I don't even follow entertainment "news" in the most cursory way. This is the first I've heard of this, and I have no idea who these people are. Does this really belong on the front page of dKos? If I wanted to watch Entertainment Tonight, I would.

    "Barack Obama must be a Dadaist because cow." --Bill in Portland, Maine

    by ubertar on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:52:06 PM PST

    •  Yes, it does. (4+ / 0-)

      It speaks to the way domestic violence victims are viewed by the media and society--domestic violence and rape ARE political  issues, even if they're happening to pop stars.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:40:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  there are other ways to bring this up... (0+ / 0-)

        how about a diary about domestic violence and rape, in which this is cited as just one prominent example? Pop stars may as well be cartoon characters to me... their world is just as disconnected with mine. Discussing them is like discussing violence by talking about anvils being dropped on Elmer Fudd's head... it doesn't feel real to me. There are so many stories of ordinary people-- maybe some personal stories from dkos members would be appropriate. It would certainly be a lot more meaningful to me, and I doubt I'm the only one. But the people who would agree with me on this probably won't visit this diary.

        "Barack Obama must be a Dadaist because cow." --Bill in Portland, Maine

        by ubertar on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:22:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've written dairies like that. (4+ / 0-)

          ANd they only reach a small audience. CNN reaches hundreds of thousands.  This diary was QUITE appropriate--it dealt with a political issue by referring to a current news story. You didn't like it/ DOn't read it.

          Rihanna isn't a cartoon. She is a living, breathing woman who was badly hurt.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:20:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Chetry is a dingbat (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alnc

    I NEVER watch CNN in the morning because of her and Roberts.  

    My heroes have the heart to live the life I want to live.

    by JLFinch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:53:05 PM PST

  •  When the President does it, it cannot be illegal. (0+ / 0-)

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:54:16 PM PST

    •  Hey, Kiran...you just joined a long list (3+ / 0-)

      ...of media assholes! Congratulations!

      Media instapundits: "Nobody Dumber - since 1988!"

      It was just a matter of time. Now, if Rihanna complains, she'll just be tagged as a bitch.

      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

      by ezdidit on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:57:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Airheads Who Produce (3+ / 0-)

    that kind of broadcast analysis of a new story are, IMO, an insult to the atmosphere.

    Stigma?  I'll tell you where the stigma attaches:  to the guy who beat her up!

    "Give me but one firm spot to stand, and I will move the earth." -- Archimedes

    by Limelite on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:56:12 PM PST

  •  Chertry dresses up as lara croft (4+ / 0-)

    image

    image

    My heroes have the heart to live the life I want to live.

    by JLFinch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:00:00 PM PST

  •  I will be hated for saying this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    i8pikachu, 50licks

    but it is one thing entirely for a woman from low SES with no clear options to stay in a relationship like this. it is another thing entirely for a wealthy, talented, young woman with literally millions of options to put up with this kind of shit. i think to some extent, the incident IS embarrassing to her. this is her boyfriend. she really did not see this coming? there really had not been 10,000, if not 100,000 signs that something like this was going to happen?

    it is a travesty, and I am usually furious when a victim is made to be the guilty party. normally, i am completely closed to the idea of laying a part of domestic abuse at the feet of the victim. but in this case... WTF? there is absolutely no reason why she should have put herself in that situation. that's just insane. perhaps that is what the tv morons were talking about. on the other hand, they are morons, so they were probably being idiots.

    •  I think it is a mistake to assume that just (10+ / 0-)

      because she is famous that she could just leave or that she didn't have pressure to stay with him from family members, employers, or other people who believed that Chris was an upstanding person and (quite frankly) that being in a relationship was good for both of their careers, especially in the R&B community.

      There are a lot of Hollywood stars and music stars that have been abused and hit by their spouses but stayed with them because of pressure from others not to cause trouble.  Especially if they are a young starlets whose career is taking off.

      •  of course she is the victim here (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        i8pikachu, 50licks

        no question.

        i was just responding to the diarist, who was making it sound like an outrage when some anchors were talking about her suffering some stigma. i think that its not as outrageous as the diarist said. while it is true other celebrities have gone through this, it is still very very puzzling why they would do this, particularly nowadays. this is not the 1950s or even the 1980s anymore.

        pressure to stay in a relationship? that's pretty weak if you are dealing with an abusive partner. i have infinite sympathy for a woman who feels there may be financial hardship and of course physical threat. but social pressure????

        let me put it another way. if a poor woman goes back to her beating husband after this, she gets 100% of my support the next time. its tough and we have not figured out how to protect her. if this girl goes back to him, she gets 22% of my sympathy the next time, and zero percent the next.

        •  But it is not only fiancial pressure that puts (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lirtydies, mamamedusa, robertacker13

          a woman back with her abuser.  Social pressure I think plays a huge role in that as well as a low self esteem.  If you feel as if you won't get support from family or friends or feel as if your abuse will not be responded to because your partner is held in high esteem, not to mention that you might still love that person, then it becomes a situation that makes it less likely that person reports it.

          Especially in the R&B/hip hop community.  You have no idea how many young fans are mad at Rihanna for snitching about Chris doing this. Especially young girls.  I can't tell you how many black celebrities have opened their mouths and said "Oh, you know Chris loves her, he meant her no harm.  Ri Ri knows he loves her."  Rihanna knew that while there would be people who might support her, she also knew that there would be people who weren't as supportive and took Chris' side, some who actually worked with her.

          •  if what you say is true about this community (0+ / 0-)

            then god help us.

            are you familiar with this community? what you say sounds almost hard to believe. i know nothing about it, so I cant judge what you say.

            if you are telling me that her FANS would be angry at her.. then, well, i am speechless. i have never heard as powerful an indictment of a culture as the one you just made right now. i hope you are totally wrong, and not at all personally, but for the sake of our country.

            snitching??? jesus. i just reread what you posted. i am literally dumbfounded. celebrities have said this???? what??????????? this is all very shocking.

    •  You obviously don't understand domestic battering (8+ / 0-)

      and how victims, of any station, become emotionally trapped.

      Please re-evaluate your comment after having read up on batter spouse syndrome.

      •  i actually have a ton of expertise in this area (0+ / 0-)

        unfortunately (i guess) i am a bit of an unconventional thinker that does not buy into what "everyone knows".

        i fully understand that she may feel emotionally trapped. but that is not the same thing as being actually trapped. i am quite willing to buy into the idea of someone holding power over someone being able to abuse them emotionally without ever touching them. the implicit threat or power make the emotional abuse real. but this dude holds no power over her. she has her own money. if she is "in love" with him, and that is her only basis for staying in an abusive relationship, then hopefully this is a wake up call for her and she can make better choices in the future.

        •  What pray tell is the source of your expertise? (4+ / 0-)

          Are you a counselor? An ER doctor? A former victim? Inquiring minds want to know.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:38:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i am a scientist (0+ / 0-)

            i do research in this area. i have been involved in several projects evaluating ways to help this population.

            i have also done volunteer work for one specific organization, though nothing too deep. painting walls and moving furniture. but still, this is an issue near and dear to my heart.

            i am sure none of this will satisfy you. oh well.

            •  As one who has spent years trying to directly (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mamamedusa, ge0rge

              help and counsel such victims --- you're right.

              I've met far too many "conselors", "researchers" and "volunteers" who pretended to try to help victims of domestic violence (including children) and yet the focus was on trying to get the victims to admit they provoked the attack and (by implication) deserved it.

              I've also met and worked at educating those, such as yourself, who think it really is just as easy as walking away. People who often have more compassion for those on death row than for those trapped in emotional prisons woven by the very ones they love and have committed themselves to.

              And don't believe for a moment battered spouse syndrome applies only to people who are married. I've seen it in teenagers being abuse by boyfriends or girlfriends; by parents brutalized by their children; and by children nearly destroyed by well meaning caregivers.

              You apparently think this is all a fiction because you "think differently," but thinking differently by ignoring the evidence and experience of those who directly work with victims isn't revolutionary, it's callous and anti-scientific.

              •  your tone is so angry and self righteous (0+ / 0-)

                really, i almost see no relationship between what i posted and your response. sounds more like you needed a place to rant. go ahead.

                if you really think there are lots of volunteers whose intention (your word) is to get the victims to admit they provoked the attack, then you must be a real joy to work with (that's sarcasm). you might consider not creating a poisonous work environment by not being so self righteous and not pretending that you can tell what other people's intentions are.

        •  No, you don't. (0+ / 0-)

          The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

          by ge0rge on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:03:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  batter spouse? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        social liberal

        they arent married-they are dating.  And why would you assume batter spouse syndrome applies to a millionaire celebrity-like it would apply to a poor woman living in a trailer park, or public housing?

        •  Your question reveals a total lack of (0+ / 0-)

          understanding of domestic violence. Please see my comment immediately above. And maybe talk to the director of a local women's shelter.

          •  wrong (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            social liberal

            try again-I am not ignorant-apparently just have a different opinion-but you cannot deny that Rhianna is not the typical woman

            •  fox assumes all disagreement is due to ignorance (0+ / 0-)

              she has not grasped the concept that there are issues in which shades of gray exist and even others on which reasonable people disagree. if you try to voice a different opinion, she will try to educate you like a child, and if you dont "learn" she will become irate. sadly, that personality type is extremely common in the activist community. it is a huge challenge to work with.

              these are complicated issues, and personal responsibility is one of many factors that have to come into play. i said elsewhere that this is a public health problem. only prevention will work. and the only effective form of prevention is for women to stop dating and marrying abusers.

              •  No, you're just stupid (0+ / 0-)

                if you try to voice a different opinion, she will try to educate you like a child, and if you dont "learn" she will become irate. sadly, that personality type is extremely common in the activist community. it is a huge challenge to work with.

                No, really, it isn't, because if you are in conflict with people's core values then there is no point in even arguing at all.
                It is NOT like you are ever going to CONVINCE any of us that maybe the victim is just a little bit to blame here.   You are not going to work with any of us at all; it's not a challenge: it's a fantasy.

                The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

                by ge0rge on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:02:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  see that's the difference between you and me (0+ / 0-)

                  i never engage in debate with anyone to CONVINCE them of anything. i only do it for my own sake, that i personally might learn something. ideally, that other person can learn something too that can supplement or enhance their own point of view. then we both walk away intellectually richer and perhaps with a slightly better understanding of the other person.

                  i know this is a revolutionary concept. think about it for a while.

              •  My assumption that you just don't know is an (0+ / 0-)

                effort to be kind to those whose statements sound just like the abusive husbands and boyfriends who perperrate this violence.

                Apparently, you don't understand what we're talking about here, because I fail to see how there can be "shades of gray" when it comes to men beating up women. You either recognize it is wrong and the woman is the victim, or you try to excuse the perpetrator by blaming the victim.

                This is an either/or question: approve violence, or not?

                Apparently, you rationalize your own antipathy toward domestic violence by rationlizing that "these are complicated issues, and personal responsibility is one of many factors...."

                But you are not talking about the personal responsibility of the abuser. You are talking about how the victim brought it on herself by not leaving.

                That's so fucked up I can't even begin to express how deranged it sounds, to those of us who have actually dealt with domestic violence.

                And, just for the record, I'm a man. Maybe that's why I get so furious when men do the most un-manly thing in the world, in visiting violence upon those too weak to defend themselves.

                Too often, it's been seen as "manly" or "macho" to be violent -- especially toward the weak and defenseless.

                So, if you wish to blame the victim --- even a "little bit" -- and thus defend the perpetrator who always says "I had to do it...", , and whines about the victim bringing it on herself. Then leave. Just leave. It's people like you who aid and abet abusers.

                •  good god (0+ / 0-)

                  if you think i in any way approve of the abuser or want to defend him, then you have understood nothing i have said.

                  i just re-read your comments and you have gotten everything i have said EXACTLY wrong. i might as well have been speaking in greek.

                  perhaps one central source of misunderstanding is this. in your world view, it appears that there is a limited amount of cause. lets say 100 cause units (100 CU). you can allocate these to either the abuser or the victim. i guess in your view, by allocating 2.5 CUs to the victim, one can then only allocate 97.5 CUs to the perp. That is not how i was describing things.

                  In my world view, there are 100 potential CUs per person. The perp gets his full allotment of 100 CUs. Every other member of society gets a small number of CUs for this, since we are all partially responsible. So we each get 0.005 CUs. The perps parents get 25 CUs each. The football coach of the perp (just hypothetically) might get 7 CUs. The victim here gets a few CUs herself. Maybe 2.5 CUs. If she goes back to this idiot and this happens again, she gets a lot more. For each of us, it is our responsibility as participants in the universe to look at our own contribution and do better.

                  I hope this helps.

    •  I won't say what I really think (12+ / 0-)

      about this comment...in the name of civility I will merely say it was ignorant and precisely the problem DV victims face.  DV happens to women of every social class, including ones with Ph.D.s and good jobs as well as movie stars and pop stars.

      What you don't seem to understand (and I heartily suggest you do some reading on the subject so you can understand rather than wallowing in ignorance) is that before the first blow is struck, the abuser has usually done a number on the victim's self esteem. They start small, by pointing out figure flaws and less than perfect facial features . Then they attack your intelligence. They isolate you from friends and family. And all this happens  after the honeymoon period where they treat you like a princess, wooing you and complimenting you and convincing you that you are their one true love. And only after you are isolated from your support network and you've lost any belief in yourself, do they hit you.

      This happened to a good friend of mine.  SHe was gorgeous, a curvy version of Cher at 21.  The Hitler Youth she was dating showered her with affection, then systematically destroyed her self confidence, convincing her she was so ugly no one but him would ever see past her large nose.  But he hadn't been able to isolate her completely--and her friends convinced her to leave him after he hit her once. I suspect something like t his happened to Rihanna.  If you read I, Tina, Tina Turner's autobiography--that's precisely what Ike did to her.  My frind was luckier--she got after one punch.  Aid you forget that Rihanna called the police so she did leave.

      Chris Brown fooled a lot of people, including the media. He was regarded as a squeaky clean guy, a Nice Guy. Not atypical, really.

      Many people believe that abusers may have some type pf menta illness, and although that may be true, the perpetrators of domestic violence are usually not sick or deranged. They actually are quite cunning usually, having learned manipulative techniques and behaviors that allow them to abuse others. The abuse the victims through domination and control techniques in order to obtain their desired responses.

      Law enforcement officers commonly arrive on the scenes of domestic abuse crimes and find significant evidence of violent incidentd, such as injured victims and homes in disarray, yet the perpetrators are composed and speak casually with the officers as if nothing had occurred.

      Abusers often experience dramatic mood swings of highs and lows. They are often loving one minute, and spiteful and cruel the next. People outside the home often characterize these abusers as being generous and caring, yet they behave drastically different in yhe privacy of their home environment. Perpetrators of domestic violence are rarely violent to those outside of their domicile.

      The use of psychological, emotional, and physical abuse intertwined with periods of remorse, love, and happiness are deliberate tools used by abusersto gain control over the victims. Batterers may violently assault, then moments later apologize for their actions. Many purchase gifts of flowers, candy, and other items in order to gain forgiveness.

      http://abuse.suite101.com/...

      Abusers may try to manipulate their partners, especially after a violent episode.
      He may try to "win" her back in some of these ways:

      Invoking sympathy from her, her family and friends.
      Talking about his "difficult childhood".
      Becoming overly charming, reminding her of the good times they've had.
      Bringing romantic gifts, flowers, dinner.
      Crying, begging for forgiveness.
      Promising it will "never happen again."
      Promising to get counseling, to change.

      Red Flags Of Abuse
      You may be involved with a perpetrator if any of the following "red flags" exist in the relationship:

      Quick involvement- the perpetrator pushes for a commitment or major event to occur very early in the relationship.

      Isolation –the perpetrator begins asking you to spend less time with your friends and family and more time with him. You end up no longer maintaining close relationships with friends or family members.

      Suggestions for change- the perpetrator has lots of suggestions on how you can improve your appearance, behavior etc. You begin to make changes solely based on these suggestions.

      Controlling behaviors- the perpetrator influences your decisions on hobbies, activities, dress, friends, daily routines etc. You begin to make fewer and fewer decisions without the perpetrator’s opinion or influence.

      Information gathering and pop-ins – the perpetrator wants to know the specific details of your day and rarely leaves you alone when you are not with him, such as when you are at work or out with friends.

      Any forms of abuse – the perpetrator may use name calling, intimidation, humiliation, shoving, pushing or other forms of abuse to get you to do whatever they want you to do.

      These red flags may indicate that you are involved with a perpetrator of domestic violence. These red flags may occur early in the relationship and be explained by the perpetrator as caring or loving behaviors such as "I just check on you because I miss you" or "I just want what is best for you" or "I just want us to work on our relationship and spend more time together."
      http://www.acadv.org/...

      Some characteristics of potential abusers:

      Extreme dependence on relationships.

      Rigid sex roles, believes men are superior and should be in charge of women.

      Impulsive in decision-making.

      General possessiveness and jealousy, which can reach pathological levels.

      Focuses on fear of losing partner, often imagines partner is having an affair.

      Not open to hearing options or rational explanations.

      Tries to isolate partner from friends, family, and co-workers.

      Difficulty in identifying and expressing feelings and oppression of emotions.

      Sees violence as a problem solver and tension release

      May have affairs.

      Witnessed/experienced family violence while growing up

      Unrealistic expectations of self, partner, family, etc.

      "Jekyll and Hyde" personality.

      Impulsive with explosive personality, flies into rages unexpectedly.

      Rigid style of demanding and controlling behaviors.

      Sees only short-term horizons, ignores/doesn't see long-term consequences of abusive behavior.

      http://www.asafeplaceforhelp.org/...

      In one  of the quotes there's a reference to the abuser rushing fences int he relationship--they get serious too fast, and can "love bomb" a woman with flowers, candy, compliments, etc--which can be extremely flattering.  They are also often NOT abusive in front of others, just when they are alone with partner.  Friends and family are often surprise t o learn he is abusive because he seems so loving in public.

      DO some reading, too.  Please.  Wealthy and well-educated women are often afraid to leave because they fear retaliation. He knows where they work. He can find them.

      .

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:36:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  actually, in the post that you found so offensive (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        50licks

        i said EXACTLY what you just said. i said that there had probably been 10,000 if not 100,000 warning signs before this happened. why was this woman with this idiot? she had every option. i understand many women have few options. she had every option.

        if i see a bottle with a big red label "POISON", open it, it smells horrible, and then drink it... dont i hold some amount of blame for what happened to me?

        i know you will flame me, but i am someone who has seen directly how brutal DV is. i have volunteered and done research in this setting. but at some point women have to take some responsibility to not date assholes. if you are poor, you may have no options, and we have to help you no matter what. but what the hell was this girl thinking?? she had every option. hopefully she learns her lesson and does a better job of picking out her next bf. these things dont happen out of the blue. these men give a million hints ahead of time.

        •  No, you didn't. Allow me to quote: (0+ / 0-)

          why was this woman with this idiot? she had every option. i understand many women have few options. she had every option.

          IOW, it's her fault because she didn't leave.

          Thus, you demonstrate no understanding at all. You are not a social liberal, you are a recidivist defender of violence as a way of dealing with stupid women.

          but what the hell was this girl thinking??

          And I don't believe you ever met a woman that was recently abused, much less studied these relationships or worked with them at length.

          •  i have solved this problem (0+ / 0-)

            you are very angry at me, but i think i have solved the problem in a different response. i explain how you and i perceive blame differently. take a look and let me know if after reading it you have a little more respect for me. thanks!

            •  You did not say what I siad. Not a damned bit. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Foxwizard

              The most important part, which you refuse to see or admit,is that none of this starts out badly.  In the beginning he  is romantic, ardent, flattering, something many women long for after dealing with frat rats and emotionally constipated men. Within that context, even the "red flags" look flattering--he cares enough about you to offer suggestions, his calls are him showing interest in your life (after dating guys who aren't into you, that can be very pleasant), he actually cares what you wear. Even his gradual (and it is ALWAYS gradual) withdrawal of you from your friends and family looks pretty good--he wants to spend more time with you (and far too many women tend to drop friends or give them a distant second when they get into relationship).  It happens gradually--so like the frog whose pot of water gradually hits boiling, it's often tool ate to leave when the real abuse begins. Most women don't recognize the warning signs as red flags until much alter--and hindsight is always 20-20. Often the first time he hits her is when she's pregnant. Often by the time he hits her, she may have quit her job. Without a job, it's damned hard to get away--you don't have the money to rent an apt. or buy a bus ticket.

              I would like to know in what context you "did research" and worked with battered women.  In detail. Because I personally think you'd make a piss-poor counselor and hope you are NOT working in the field. Let me put it this way: Judging from your attitudes here, I'd fire you after my initial interview of you. You see, I am empowered, and I regard the first session with a doctor or counselor to be ME interviewing THEM for the job of my caregiver. If I don't like 'em, they're told at the end that I won't be coming back. You wouldn't pass my sniff test.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Mon Feb 23, 2009 at 02:37:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  you scare me a little (0+ / 0-)

                i don't plan to reveal anything about myself to you. you seem a little, um, excitable.

                you have completely misunderstood everything i have said, to the point that arguing with you would be an exercise in absurdity. even your first sentence is a non sequitour and possibly in response to someone else. i don't know and don't really care that much.

                peace.

    •  how do we know (3+ / 0-)

      how many "signs" there were...?

      That's right we don't.

      And if there were signs?

      _____________

      go ahead fill in the blank,

      •  see the post right above (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        50licks

        these things never just happen. in all likelihood there were a million signs.

        and if there were signs? well she should have dumped his ass of course. what else? for regular battered women this is generally hard because of financial and safety issues. neither applies in this case. she should have left him long ago. what the hell was she doing?

        •  HOW do YOU know??? (0+ / 0-)

          these things never just happen.

          Is that your PROFESSIONAL opinion, Dr. Soc.??  This is literally incredible.

          in all likelihood there were a million signs.

           In all likelihood, you personally don't know jack about what is or isn't likely in this type of situation.

          Nevertheless, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
          There are reports that she told police he had hit
          her before.  As to why she didn't just leave, well,
          you wouldn't know, that's for sure.

          The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

          by ge0rge on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:01:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  these cases all look remarkably similar (0+ / 0-)

            of course, there is no way to know for sure. but if you deal with this population, you know that there are enormous similarities between cases. am i surprised that he hit her before? no. i would have been SHOCKED if he had not.

            also, notice how i continue to reply politely to you even though you insult me and scream at me and tear your garments off? you should try it too, if you like. it's great for your heart.

    •  Usually? (6+ / 0-)

      it is a travesty, and I am usually furious when a victim is made to be the guilty party.

      Wow.  Just wow.  I don't hate you for this comment like you suggested but it's really incredible.  

      "The rule of law must be affirmed and strengthened in the wake of the Bush administration. The crimes must be punished."

      by Sun dog on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:21:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  well, usually, as opposed to right now (0+ / 0-)

        where, if you read my statement, i am still very sympathetic to this young woman. normally, i would lay 0% at the feet of the victim, even if its a repeat case. but in this case, i think it is not inappropriate to lay, say, 5% at her feet. she had many options.

        until we teach society and women specifically that they should not be dating assholes, DV will never end. no number of after-the-fact interventions will protect this women. they need prevention, and the only effective prevention is to not date assholes. building more shelters and having more laws and more educated judges and police and even giving every woman a gun is not going to do it. the only way DV ends is when women stop dating assholes. sorry if thats offensive.

    •  As well you should be (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Foxwizard

      You are proving a Fox anchor RIGHT.
      YOU PERSONALLY are stigmatizing Rihanna.
      You claim that she "put herself in that situation".
      The only one putting himself into an abusive situation here IS YOU, and with 2 recs, you are getting a lot LESS abuse than you deserve.  Rihanna may have known that Brown had been priorly abusive, but you certainly didn't.

      The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

      by ge0rge on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 12:58:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  whats your point? (0+ / 0-)

        i am 99.9% sure that a man that inflicts that kind of damage to a woman is not acting for the first time. battering someone is not something that just happens. only a specific kind of person is so vile and cowardly as to do something like this, and you can see them a mile away. i am sorry if that is offensive to you somehow.

  •  Crash CNN's Inbox (3+ / 0-)

    GOP=Grand Obstructionist Party

    by Christian Dem in NC on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:12:55 PM PST

  •  How this may have gotten to this point (5+ / 0-)

    Is the fact that
    1.Rhianna is an adult.
    2.Rhianna is a public figure. (very public)
    3.Rhianna has said zero about the incident
    4.We all generally have the impression of what happened.

    So in essence shes sort of pretending like it didnt happen, and THAT stigma of not being forthcoming about a serious development in one's very public life, could be interpretted by some as being something worthy of blame.

    I think deep down in their subconscious hearts, these journalists are actually ANGRY that Rhianna "DARE" not tell us what happened or how she feels. Like somehow she OWES IT to them (the media community).

    So they retaliate by saying "WELL MAYBE THEN WE'LL JUST CALL YOU ABUSE-GIRL FROM NOW ON SINCE YOURE TAKING YOUR BALL AND GOING HOME!"

    frankly it disgusts me. Some things have to be reported, some things SHOULD be reported, and some things YOU (journalists) dont have any right to demand be reported.

  •  Fredricka Whitfiel referred to prisoners at Gitmo (6+ / 0-)

    as "people" before, about a month or so ago. She was talking about the detainees and she said something about them and then she called them people and she put her fingers up in quotes.  And she was smiling, as if it was cute or something, I don't know how to describe it.

    I was shocked that she called them people in quotes.  But I heard nothing about it later.  No backlash, no reaction, she didn't even look as if she made a stumble or anything after that.

    I don't get it.  I assume anchors are educated enough to know minimal levels of decency, right and wrong.  I know the networks are problematic, but she didn't have to say that.  I am dumbfounded.

  •  Many things in the news every day- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies

    make me sad. Even though I don't follow their careers or their music, this incident makes me sad.

    A pity that the first exposure I have to either of them is this story about a nadir in their lives.

    Yet another all-too-common affliction of relationships rearing its ugly head in a public manner.  Hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call for people in these situations to GTFO and get help, but unfortunately, such dynamics get a lot worse before they get better, if ever.

    Please, people- don't be assholes.  Violence and abuse in relationships is never a good idea, for any reason.

    my opinions are objectively superior to yours.

    by djughurknot on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:37:35 PM PST

  •  You stay classy Kiran (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies

    Really low and classless rather.  I actually had to check that it was CNN not Faux News spouting that kind of crap.  WTF?

  •  This won't be popular, but how can you have any (0+ / 0-)

    respect for women and not agree that this woman has some responsibility for this situation, particularly if the relationship is ongoing.  I mean men are working out, spending a fortune on cosmetics, clothing, and cars to attract women.  Are you telling me that if women decide that the "neanderthal" is no longer in vogue, that won't help those who believe that violence is a tool to control the woman in their life get the message?

    By the way, if a man expresses himself with others by asserting his dominance (physically, intellectually, etc.), what makes a woman think that she won't come in for similar treatment at some point? Do you really think the first time this woman got a glimpse of this guy's character was when he was physically assaulting her? This is a far more complex subject than is being discussed here. All I hear is political correctness.

    "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

    by lordcopper on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:22:22 PM PST

    •  Read a resposne to me up at the top of this (9+ / 0-)

      thread. They don't start out as abusers. They are charming, sweet, shower the woman with flowers and phone calls and attention. They profess love early on, and pay her extravagant compliments. Then they start making small suggestions about what she should wear, how she should behave--then they start pointing out her faults. By the time they hit her for the first time, they've established themselves publicly as Mr. Good Guy. They've isolated her form family and friends.  They've begun calling and tracking her movements.  Then they hit her.  If she tells her family, and friends, they often don't believe her.  

      And he isn't abusive all the time.  After an incident, he'll often apologize, bring her flowers, swear it won't happen again--but he'll still control her.  ANd eventually stressors build up inside him (they can't handle anger or any frustration), and he hits her again. Often he'll threaten to kill her or the kids  or her friends or anyone who helps her--and all too often they DO kill.  This why shelters are usually at a secret lcoation--they pick up the woman, and take her to the shelter so he can't find her jusrt by looking in the phone book.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:34:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good points, but let's point out that this victim (0+ / 0-)

        has a voice, she has power and resources, and there are no kids involved. My opinion is somewhat jaded because long before I married LadyCopper, I used to date women (not for long) who would try to maneuver me into the position of dominating their life.  I'm telling you too many women have this attitude.  These women would try to make me tell them how much they should weigh, what they should do, wear, eat, etc.  So I know that there are women with this attitude around, and I believe they bear some of the responsibility of this awful situation.

        My wife's best friend constantly chooses men like this (what are the chances that every man you date has this attitude unless you seeking it in some manner).  I washed my hands of the situation after I had to threatened to kick the guy's ass during a particularly embarassing dinner out.  I understand that this attitude resultsfrom some form of trauma, but the victim has to accept some responsibility if the situation is to change.

        "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

        by lordcopper on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:47:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But many of these abused women (6+ / 0-)

          pick theri abuser because he doesn't come across as a control freak at first--but as a great guy, romantic, able to share his feelings, etc.

          And some women are submissive by nature (in normal life as well as the BDSM sense).  Nothing wrong so long as the woman can still manage to ahndle things.  A lot of military wives are smalltown girls (I was a Navy Wife for 15 years) and they marry guys with conservative values that match their own. Usually he pays the bills and handles the money--until the first deployment, when they have to learn to do everything he did on their own while he's gone for 6-12 months. A lot of marriages break up when he comes home and tries to play Lord of the Manor again,. and she isn't willing tio go back.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:12:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  assume much? (2+ / 0-)

      there is lot of innuendo wrapped up in your comments....care to elaborate of how you know all of these things about their relationship?

      Do not become the sycophants we have despised for 8 years.

      by justmy2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:53:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Once a FOX Anchor, always a FOX anchor (3+ / 0-)

    Do not become the sycophants we have despised for 8 years.

    by justmy2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:28:19 PM PST

  •  I heard this comment when it happened (4+ / 0-)

    and I immediately thought Ms. Chetry would have some explaining to do. It's an ignorant, irresponsible comment on so many levels.

    $700 Billion would fund 10 years of Obama's universal health plan!!

    by pmcmscot on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:28:59 PM PST

  •  how will poor Kiran handle the stigma (3+ / 0-)

    of being an airhead idiot each and every day??  She proves it over and over.  Don't forget - she used to be a co-"anchor" on Fox and Friends "news" with the buffoons Brian Kilmeade and Steve Doocy.  That is her "journalism" "pedigree".  Now she plays "cutie" to airhead John Roberts.

  •  sigh. (0+ / 0-)
    at least all of the chimps are letting the women know who not to go out with. I don't get her ex at all. The first thing I learned in High school was if you're concerned about everyone calling  you a faggot and you're a straight guy grab the first cheerleader you get along with and will say yes, the tables turn really quickly.

    in a man's world you ain't shit as a guy unless the other men are jealous of you, and this is what you do with a lady that half of the known world wants?

    Not that rihanna was my cup of tea, i would of gone for someone indie like jena malone but you know, what the fuck? is he insane?

    warning: be nice to me i'm suffering from "The head of state comitted an act of treason in offical capacity" syndrome.

    by daeros on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:02:55 PM PST

  •  Wow. That is disgusting. They should be asking (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Foxwizard

    about Chris's career now that it's OVER. I am disgusted with CNN. And the fact that a woman anchor was asking the question is an insult to me.

    "I don't know it all, but I know that what I do know , I know enough of it to know that I know , I know it. Ya know ?" ~ Being In The Know

    by WeBetterWinThisTime on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:28:57 PM PST

    •  With all due respect.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SemDem

      do you really believe that Chris' career is over???  Have you paid any attention to the hip hop community lately and their treatment of women?  How is R. Kelly doing these days?

    •  Not just an insult to women, but to men as well, (0+ / 0-)

      perpetuating the asinine idea that men are incapable of maturity, self-control and sound judgement; not to mention compassion and genuine loving affection.

      As someone upthread noted, this is borne of the Taliban Class -- and is closely related to the Taliban idea that women must be covered, lest they tempt men into sinning.

      This attitude is not only found in fundamentalist Islam, but in fundamentalist Christian and secular communities as well.

      It is the age-old myth that women are the cause of sin, and that men are just too weak-kneed and insipid to be able to exercise sound judgement around women.

  •  When I heard that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Foxwizard

    I wondered what stigma they were talking about? I thought about it for a moment and couldn't come up with any legitimate reason for there to be a stigma attached to her.

    Mike Bloomberg and the 29 New York City council members that overturned the will of the people must be voted out in 2009.

    by jbjowe on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:39:53 PM PST

  •  WHERE ARE THE WOMENS GROUPS ? (0+ / 0-)

    I want all of them out in full force Monday. This is what they say they want stopped ? I want to see them out in full f-ing force.

    Emilys List ?

    You need to take the lead here.

    "I don't know it all, but I know that what I do know , I know enough of it to know that I know , I know it. Ya know ?" ~ Being In The Know

    by WeBetterWinThisTime on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:54:48 PM PST

  •  I seem to recall a certain Tina Turner. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KateCrashes

    But then I'm old.

  •  OP needs one word added (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Foxwizard, mamamedusa

    The last sentence of the second-to-last paragraph in the OP should read "When a man beats up another (straight) man?"

    This is the kind of stuff that happens all the time in brutal gay-bashings and murders of gay people. The murderer simply pushes a lie along the lines of "he hit on me, stupid fag had it coming" and since the gay murder victim is, well, too dead to speak the truth in court, the killer gets an extremely light sentence.

    Case in point from South Carolina, in the murder of Sean Kennedy: Kill an animal? Five years. Kill a gay man? One-third of that.

  •  This is what happens when you let the Fox lab rat (0+ / 0-)

    run free into regular media. They polute the airways.

    This dumbo has been spewing rightwing questions for quests and making Paula Zahn feel proud that one of her protegees is doing the job they way she used to do for the Bush Adminstration at 8pm every night until they pulled that rag off the air.

    Only to replace Zahn with a FoxBot at 8am that is dumber than a door knob.

    Please CNN do not hire ED Hill, Linda Vester or the rest of the Fox rejects!! Gentry is putrid!!!!

    "Our Long National Nightmare Is Over"- alnc 1/20/09!!!!

    by alnc on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 12:17:36 AM PST

  •  stigma? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KateCrashes

    Isn't it readily apparent that Kiran Chetry is the victim of abuse? Conditioned to respond as a victim who accepts subjugation when confronted--supporting her own repression? Poor woman.

  •  victim blamers and victim canonizers (0+ / 0-)

    are two poles of an issue that is unfortunately much larger and deeper than it is usually presented as. this is usually forgotten when people rush to judge. while the action of hitting anybody cannot be considered acceptable, the people that do it have their reasons for it, and the people that get hit have their reasons for being in the line of fire: some rational, some unavoidable, some very much the opposite.
    big brush/small frame- no, larger frame/smaller brush- yes.

  •  Here's the real "stigma" facing Rihanna (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    50licks

    "Word on 'da Street" is that Rihanna gave Chris Brown an STD.  If true, THAT's the real stigma she has to be concerned with.

    Sorry if someone else has posted this "rumor."  I didn't have time to read thru 300+ comments.

    ** Disclaimer:  I still wouldn't advocate violence even if that rumor was true.

  •  oh yeah lets call everyone sexist!!! (0+ / 0-)

    we call everyone racist so why not??!?!

    </sarcasm>

    learn about folding@home and join the dailykos team 48083

    by topshooter on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:17:36 AM PST

  •  I think your comment is not really (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KateCrashes

    from what you quoted.  "When did it become okay to suggest that victims of this kind of violence somehow "asked for it"?"  where did it say this?  Seems like an extrapolation.

  •  The absurdity (0+ / 0-)

    is absolutely infuriating.

    Either you are a feminist or a sexist/misogynist. There is no box marked `other'." -Ani DiFranco

    by ErinW43 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 04:12:48 AM PST

  •  They need to be schooled by Tina Turner. (0+ / 0-)
  •  An awful lot of the discussion here... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Foxwizard

    ...sounds as if CNN was talking about the folks contributing to the discussion here. Which is decidedly not so.

    Fact is, there are plenty of people out there who will say NOT "What did she do to deserve it?" so much as "What was she doing with a creep like this? Hmmmph. Why did she stay? Why should I feel sorry for someone who stays with a brutal guy?" Plus, I can name relatives who will say things like, "What do you expect from blacks and black rappers?" (and they don't all live in red states, most are in New York City and Boston) and I bet a lot of folks here can name some as well. Many of those people say they'd have walked out the very first time the guy got in their face at all.

    It won't even matter if there were absolutely NO signs leading up to the event (and I really have no idea if there were or weren't) to the people who think that way. She will be dismissed as many abused women are because the underlying theory is she is a defective, irresponsible human being with no self-respect and complicit because she chose to hang around with "trash." This sentiment is voiced every time there's a woman killed by a husband with a history of domestic abuse. And yes, some will say she can shake hands with herself. Just talk to someone who works with victims of domestic violence.

    We know there are a lot of enlightenment-challenged types out there. I think CNN got it half-right at least -- but a lengthy diatribe against that kind of thinking would have been fantastic. The prediction that this is all she'll be remembered for is dumb, of course, but women like Ronny Spector and Tina Turner do carry the stigma with them even as they've risen above it.

    Funny, though: plenty of old people who know Big Crosby was a domestic abuser still swoon to his velvety voice. He did have a fine voice, but every time I hear it I think, "You beat your kids and probably your wife, so I think you should probably STFU."

    Will the last one out of democracy please turn out the lights?

    by Apphouse50 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 05:23:04 AM PST

  •  After having read this... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Foxwizard

    ...I emailed CNN and suggested that perhaps Kiran Chetry might enjoy the "stigma" of losing her job. Or not. Who cares? After all, hundreds of thousands of us have all had to endure the stigma of losing THEIR jobs.

    Remember -- this election was NEVER about Obama -- it was about YOU.

    by SammyJames on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 05:25:46 AM PST

  •  She's the Whitney Houston of her generation (0+ / 0-)

    is what the article suggests.  She will be remembered by people only marginally aware of her career as "Oh, yeah she's that girl who got beat up by her boyfriend".

    This is about celebrity and the what the fanzines and tabloids say about you, not about what is right.  If she stays with him, she will have a stigma, and legions of fans who have done the same thing in their personal lives.  If she leaves him, she'll have different fans.

    Stupid as it sounds, people are more interested in her personal life than her talent.  And whole magazines owe their existence to the endless fascination some feel in the failures of the rich and famous.

  •  Stigma is a stupid word here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Foxwizard

    because it does suggest blame, but her guest was sorta right in that most people could end up remembering her as a victim, not because it's her fault or because people will blame her but because we tend to remember dramatic events.  Even if she has everyone's sympathy, that can be a burden too if it translates into pity.

    Oh, and if a man was beaten by another man (and didn't fight back effectively), he'd be a "wuss" and receive very little sympathy.  He would definitely be stigmatized.

  •  Represents an old (and realisitic) (0+ / 0-)

    thought about how America operates.  As if we are best left to not know. Fact is, as sad as it is, there IS stigma attatched to it.  It isn't right, however.  But just as if someone told another they were molested by a relative, the person most likely would never think of them the same way again (unless they were as well).  One would have to be of Oprah's success to allow it not to cross your mind.  Would it cross your mind to leave said molested friend around your children alone after knowing that?

    People love to live in the dark.  It isn't right for this "reporter" to reaffirm this line of thought, but it is true in average America.

    America see weakness as a critical personal flaw - even if we experience ourselves.  That's why we like to keep silent about personal injustices like these.

    I think this may be America likes self-help groups and shrinks so much in our society.  The lack of support from friends, family, etc. drives us to find support among people that will understand.  It trains up to keep quiet, to be embarassed of our past, and to assume that others don;t want to know about it.

  •  There's only a stigma if Rihana GOES BACK! (0+ / 0-)

    She can turn this into a positive and be a strong voice for those who have been targets of abuse.

    She can prosecute Brown to the fullest and say "NEVER AGAIN!"

    But if she runs back to him and forgives, you can damn sure bet there will be a stigma of a victim--not a strong woman that she has portrayed.

    The Seminole Democrat
    A blue voice calling from the deep red

    by SemDem on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 10:38:00 AM PST

  •  Unbelievable (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Foxwizard

    No other way to describe that comment. How the victim of a crime, something that they never wanted, should be labeled and looked down upon is simply unbelievable.  

  •  Barb's comments misguided (0+ / 0-)

    The question about the stigma is real.
    Everyone from Barb on down deplores the fact
    that any stigma would result from this.
    But the stigma was not invented by the journalist
    asking the question.  It is a bad fact about the society that people can and do get stigmatized for this, or even IF NOT stigmatized, even if HONORED OR RESPECTED for overcoming, still PIGEONHOLED.
    The worry here was not so much that people would think less of Rihanna for having been with a man who would do this to her AS that they will think about her victim status (even if positively) AS OPPOSED to about her music.

    The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

    by ge0rge on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 11:19:59 AM PST

  •  Um....it *is* a stigma (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KateCrashes
    I think there's some misplaced outrage going on here.  There is a stigma attached with being a victim of abuse.  Just like there's a stigma to being gay, or being black.  Because the word "stigma" refers to an effect on your reputation, the worst elements of society are allowed to define it.  It's the nature of the word.

    There's nothing wrong with being afflicted by a stigma, and I think it's a legitimate use of the word in this context.

  •  It's always been ok (0+ / 0-)

    It's been true for many hundreds of years: that the female victim of physical violence is thought of as the one to blame, the one to carry the shame. In a way, it is good that this is beginning to be discussed. Like any problem, you have to be aware of it first, for change to begin.

    I woke up this morning, so I must still be alive. - DKos BFSkinner

    by Audri on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 12:11:53 PM PST

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