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Yesterday's New York Times: "The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving" and this from  BussinessWeek : "Why Skilled Immigrants Are Leaving the U.S."

Why should we care? Because immigrants are critical to the country's long-term economic health. Despite the fact that they constitute only 12% of the U.S. population, immigrants have started 52% of Silicon Valley's technology companies and contributed to more than 25% of our global patents They make up 24% of the U.S. science and engineering workforce holding bachelor's degrees and 47% of science and engineering workers who have PhDs. Immigrants have co-founded firms such as Google (GOOG), Intel (INTC), eBay (EBAY), and Yahoo! (YHOO).

[...] the bank bailout legislation includes language to discourage banks from recruiting skilled foreigners on work visas.

It seems to be a political gesture, understandable and probably empty. "Citibank and the others aren’t hiring, they’re firing," Vivek Wadhwa, a former technology entrepreneur who is an adjunct professor at Duke University, said in an interview Sunday. "It has no practical effect, other than to make a couple of senators feel good. But it’s a stupid message to send."

great.

In the last two decades, Mr. Wadhwa estimates, 50,000 immigrants left the United States and returned to India and China. In the next five years, he projects that 100,000 more will make the return trip. "A trickle is turning into a flood," he said.

businessweek:

As the debate over H-1B workers and skilled immigrants intensifies, we are losing sight of one important fact: The U.S. is no longer the only land of opportunity. If we don't want the immigrants who have fueled our innovation and economic growth, they now have options elsewhere. Immigrants are returning home in greater numbers. And new research shows they are returning to enjoy a better quality of life, better career prospects, and the comfort of being close to family and friends.

who are these people? businessweek continues:

Our new paper, "America's Loss Is the World's Gain," finds that the vast majority of these returnees were relatively young. The average age was 30 for Indian returnees, and 33 for Chinese. They were highly educated, with degrees in management, technology, or science. Fifty-one percent of the Chinese held master's degrees and 41% had PhDs. Sixty-six percent of the Indians held a master's and 12.1% had PhDs. They were at very top of the educational distribution for these highly educated immigrant groups—precisely the kind of people who make the greatest contribution to the U.S. economy and to business and job growth.

Nearly a third of the Chinese returnees and a fifth of the Indians came to the U.S. on student visas. A fifth of the Chinese and nearly half of the Indians entered on temporary work visas (such as the H-1B). The strongest factor that brought them to the U.S. was professional and educational development opportunities.

excellent job! ship them back so that we have all the jobs here - that would be the reaction I am sure I will see in the comments.

The NYT goes on

[...] "Addressing this issue is going to entail more than solving the visa problem," said Mr. Wadhwa, referring to the waiting list of 1 million H-1B visa holders and their families who are seeking longer-term work visas.

Instead of permitting skilled immigrants to enter the United States, Mr. Wadhwa insisted, the country has to start wooing them by creating "fast-track" immigration policies and incentives to stay, as nations like Singapore and Australia have done.
[...] from 1995 to 2005, and 52 percent of Silicon Valley start-ups. These immigrant-founded companies employed 450,000 workers in 2006

Have at it. There is a very interesting back and forth with the researcher here called Backwards brain drain:

Do you see something like a Silicon Valley now really taking off in India?
Go to New Delhi, go to Bangalore, go to even Bombay and other outposts and you'll see tremendous activity in start-ups. There is a lot of energy there, a lot of optimism there. It's like Silicon Valley used to be in the late '90's. A lot of excitement about the future and the sad thing is, in the United States, we are depressed right now, basically demoralized right now. They are very upbeat in India and in China right now

Originally posted to HEAT on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:02 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  tj (22+ / 0-)

    "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

    by HEAT on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:02:36 PM PST

  •  You're conflating two things. That article urges (19+ / 0-)

    the necessity of increasing GREEN CARD allotments to skilled workers, so those workers can become citizens and be here forever.

    Difference from H1-B.

    "I gotta rec that sh*t, even though it is completely tasteless and rude." ... "luntz and his cretinous kabal are paid bloggers from AIPAC."

    by DemocraticLuntz on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:05:11 PM PST

    •  Except they are still taking jobs from Americans (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      freespeech, The Raven

      right?

      Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

      by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:08:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  h1b are a gateway to a greencard (5+ / 0-)

      It's one of the fastest ways to permanent residence in the US for skilled workers.

      First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win - Gandhi

      by mysticlaker on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:09:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is completely false (5+ / 0-)

        Its downright shocking how many complete fabrications there are on this thread.  By definition, an H1-B visa is a non-immigrant visa for a duration of 3 years extendable to 6 years.  You cannot obtain a "permanent residence in the US" through this type of visa as it is, by its very nature, not a way to obtain permanent residence but is only temporary.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        •  If you read your own Wiki link further, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          markw, capelza, pico

          you'll see this: 'Even though the H-1B visa is a non-immigrant visa, it is one of the few visa categories recognized as dual intent, meaning an H-1B holder can have legal immigration intent (apply for and obtain the green card) while still a holder of the visa.'

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          •  You fail to understand. (0+ / 0-)

            The H1-B holder may have legal immigration intent but he cannot adjust through his H1-B.  He can adjust through marriage or other means but an H1-b in itself does not allow him to get a green card.  When his time is up he must return unless he has another way to adjust.  While he may have dual intent (unlike a tourist visa where you may not enter with dual intent) ther is no way to become a lawful permanent resident without some other means to adjust (marriage, family, etc.).

            •  Technically you are right. However, H1B can be a (0+ / 0-)

              'gateway to the green card' in a sense that if you have H1B visa, it is much easier to apply for a green card via labor certification (a most common way) and not worry that if you are turned down you would have to leave the country. If you apply for a GC via marriage to US citizen, it's a relatively fast and straightforward process so you can do it from any visa. Neither my post or the parent post implied that H1B is sufficient for a GC.

        •  Interestng, do you even read your (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          markw, capelza, pico

          links?

          H-1B and legal immigration

          Even though the H-1B visa is a non-immigrant visa, it is one of the few visa categories recognized as dual intent, meaning an H-1B holder can have legal immigration intent (apply for and obtain the green card) while still a holder of the visa.

      •  really? (0+ / 0-)

        I would like to know. I am very interested.

        "We're wearing short sleeves because we have to roll up our sleeves and clean up the mess that we inherited." -D. Axelrod 2/12/09

        by ruff4life on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:50:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  real winners IMO are India and China (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Roadbed Guy, kurt, Marcion

      The kids get trained well, in the best higher institutions in the world, and alas go home. Instead of retaining them here what we do? create every barrier out there to make it hard for them to stay. Guess what the result would be.

      "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

      by HEAT on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:10:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But why should we be granting (7+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rick, kfred, greeseyparrot, alisonc, kurt, 0wn, cap76

        H1-B's in an economy like this?  I've worked for a couple of companies who used it as an easy way to trim the budget.  They didn't bother to find qualified domestic workers for the positions, they sponsored workers who were just as educated, and probably just as qualified, but who would work for a lower wage.  That's bullshit, on the part of the company.  It's abuse of a system that was designed for a completely different set of economic conditions.

        We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine,

        And the machine is bleeding to death.

        by Marcus Tullius on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:16:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  guess what the alternative is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pstoller78

          I've worked for a couple of companies who used it as an easy way to trim the budget.

          that is precisely the point. Corps are not looking out for you. They are after their bottomline. They make business decisions to stay in play and reducing costs is THE ONLY thing that comes to their mind. They get it chep, they take it. If they are denied doing that, they go offshore - to saty compitative. i know it is such a vicious cycle but it is the reality. SO We might be better off if we somehow let keep them here and get taxes from them and the employess spend their money here..

          "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

          by HEAT on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:21:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wait, (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greeseyparrot, 0wn, pstoller78

            you are saying that, yes, they are illegally abusing the guest worker program to push down the bottom line, but that they have to do it to stay competitive.  Fuck that.  If they do that, and get caught (and, boy, I'm hoping Solis checks this out), they should lose the right to use the H1-B system, at least on a temporary basis.  And if they then offshore their business, we should yank their corporate charters, or tax them until it hurts.  They have no rights to hold this nation's labor pool hostage in that manner.  I can't believe you're advocating that.  Am I misreading you?

            We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine,

            And the machine is bleeding to death.

            by Marcus Tullius on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:26:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am with you on one thing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza

              And if they then offshore their business, we should yank their corporate charters, or tax them until it hurts.

              but I don't see that happening and I am not even sure how we can do that exactly. They know all the in and out of offshore business and they have very good lawyers. In anycase the big picture is that the corps are in reality are not after hurting us or conspiring to take jobs away....insead they see incentive to do it. They see their profit go up when they outsource. Thats all it takes. We have to somehow give then reason to stay here. We might start by allowing them hire here anyone they want but only HERE...

              "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

              by HEAT on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:33:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Then point the "gun" at their heads (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greeseyparrot, capelza

            >>hey get it chep, they take it. If they are denied doing that, they go offshore - to saty compitative. i know it is such a vicious cycle but it is the reality.<<</p>

            What you do then is point the gun at their heads (figuratively of course) and say, "You do that you pay a 75% tariff on sales here, do you want to try selling to the Chinese making an Average of $5 a day or try selling to an American making $35,000 a year?  Where do you see most sales coming from?".  Since almost no company that employees predominantly Americans makes any significant money from exports except Boeing, we should be okay.

            "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

            by Mister Gloom on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:30:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Why should we let anyone immigrate and take (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza

          jobs in an economy like this?

          Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

          by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:32:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not what I'm saying, at all. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rick, Odysseus, greeseyparrot, 0wn

            But we should absolutely be making sure that every single H1-B application that is processed is absolutely necessary.  Using it as a means of wage suppression is unconscionable.  Stopping immigration is ridiculous.  Not allowing immigration that specifically displaces American workers, that makes sense.  If unemployment is through the roof and climbing, why would we not make every effort to look after our domestic labor pool first.  The H1-B system needs much more rigorous oversight than it currently receives.  I don't understand why anyone would object to that.

            We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine,

            And the machine is bleeding to death.

            by Marcus Tullius on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:38:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ok. So should we make sure that each (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza

              of those million immigrants a year will not take a job from an American?

              Sure it needs oversight. That's not what people are complaining about though.

              Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

              by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:47:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, it is what we are complaining about. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Odysseus, greeseyparrot, 0wn, Nada Lemming

                I have personally seen the system abused to suppress wages.  Others have stated they have seen the same thing.  It would follow that we would like to see much more rigid oversight of the system than exists.  What do you think we are complaining about?

                We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine,

                And the machine is bleeding to death.

                by Marcus Tullius on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:50:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  People keep saying that but (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza

                  only one person showed any proof of lowered wages for US citizens and that was a few percent and only for Phds.

                  People are complaining about the H1B visa holders taking jobs from US citizens.

                  Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                  by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:47:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Are they even 1% less a person than an American (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            markw, dnta, capelza, pico

            is? Do they not have families as well? why should they be doomed and we get the good jobs just based on an accident of birth?  Progressives are supposed to believe in equal opportunity, but emphasizing ones' birth status is akin to aristocracy.

            I know that it's painful when a foreigner (or anybody else) takes YOUR job, and I sympathize. But one person is happy, one is sad, both are equally human beings, so where is the great tragedy (for anybody but the laid-off employee)?

    •  except that an H is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      markw, JayGR

      the most common path to LPR.

  •  Don't let the door hit ya on your way out... (10+ / 1-)

    Not reccd due to author's blatant bias.

  •  you are neglecting to include data that points (10+ / 0-)

    out the high unemployment rates among US scientists and engineers and the downward pressure on salaries. PHd's are down to 40k on average. Perhaps they are going back because their standard of living would be better in their home countries.

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

    by Tanya on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:10:02 PM PST

  •  I support real immigration... (16+ / 0-)

    ...not this job busting, wage lowering H1-B hack that is designed to purge US jobs.

    I want people who come here to work to stay and become citizens... I don't want them as temporary slaves so that they can go back and take our outsourced jobs...

    Being opposed to the H1-B program does not mean one is anti-immigrant... in fact, it's just the opposite...

    As for the people leaving the country... wouldn't you?  This statistic is a canary in the coal mine.  Those who are the most mobile (i.e. temporary workers) know what's up here and are getting out 'cos they can... the U.S. economy is sinking fast and I think will never really recover.

    It's not immigration policy that's causing them to go back home.  It's the fact our economy is in the tanker and the quality of life here is deteriorating fast.  I think the changes may actually be permanent.  Most of us are stuck here.  Temporary workers are not.  They know what's up and
    are leaving...

    It's a sign of the times and perhaps a prediction of an ominous future...

    Comments that say "GM workers should get retraining" without SPECIFIC DETAILS about those "new jobs" that never come are trollworthy

    by LordMike on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:11:42 PM PST

    •  Wage lowering? How much? (0+ / 0-)

      Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

      by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:12:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  a lot PHD's in teh sciences are making about 40k (0+ / 0-)

        now

        To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

        by Tanya on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:14:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ok, accepting that as true for the sake of (0+ / 0-)

          argument, show that it's because of the H1B program.

          Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

          by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:15:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I researched that (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greeseyparrot, pstoller78

            Employers game the H1B system in a variety of ways. They can, for instance, divide programmers in a 1-5 sort of scale, and declare the H1B to be a 1 (when in fact he does the work of a 5) and they often use the average pay for a 1 as defined by a different state (which they are allowed to do) and thereby get $50/hr talent and pay $20.

            Remember that movie, "How Not to Hire an American." These companies send lawyers to visit companies and give them presentations on how they can avoid hiring Americans. The H1B visa system sounds gosh darn great in those articles, but the reporting is actually quite suspect.

            Anyway, in normal economic times I don't have nearly the problem with it as I do now when American families are hurting and employers are shedding jobs left and right.

            Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

            by The Raven on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:23:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The problem is that there aren't that many (0+ / 0-)

              H1B visas and not one person has been able to supply evidence of anything more than a 3-4% drop in wages for SOME Phds.

              So even if the system can be gamed no evidence has been provided to show that this program is responsible for wide spread wage suppression.

              Not one shred of evidence to support such a claim has been presented.

              As far as our economic times, would you be comfortable with ending all immigration or are you just concerned about the educated class?

              The H1B program is tiny compared to the number of immigrants that come in each year and compete with everyone - not just the educated class - for jobs.

              I only see right-wingers complain about that but Dems are happy to complain about competition at the upper SES levels.

              I find that interesting to say the least.

              Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

              by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:27:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I won't do your homework (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                greeseyparrot

                But a few minutes of searching turned up considerable evidence last time I looked. These aren't dishwashing jobs - these are solid professional-level jobs that should be given to Americans, along with the benefits that come with jobs like this.

                Under the Bush economy, job creation has been abysmal, and quality jobs are in reduced supply. What few opportunities remain should not be handed off to foreigners so employers can save a buck.

                This isn't an anti-immigrant thing. This is an anti-HR department and corporate preference for cheap labor thing.

                Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

                by The Raven on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:56:43 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Perhaps you missed the diaryyesterday (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rick

                Where a guy not only saw his wages cut, but was actually laid off while the H1B replacement was less qualified.

                I know you read that diary because you were spamming the comment with just this kind of idiocy.

                So the fact that you would say there's no evidence after reading that diary last nigh, not to mention the droves of other evidence, demonstrates how full of shit you are.

                Just another corporatist troll it looks like.

                •  No actually I didn't miss it. Nor did I miss that (0+ / 0-)

                  the only evidence anyone provided that showed the H1B depressed wages of US citizens was for Phds ONLY and that was only 3-4%.

                  If you have evidence feel free to present it.

                  As I'm a civil rights attorney I'm guessing you're more corporatist than I am.

                  Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                  by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:11:40 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, as post-docs . .. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayGR

          which is a nice step up from the $21-24K in the mid 90's . . .

          Or even less in the 80s . . .

      •  Jay (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rick, greeseyparrot, 0wn

        Go get educated and get back to us.  All you do is say 'prove it' and you offer nothing of your own.

        Do a diary on your opinions and research.  

        But this is borderline trolling now.  

        "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

        by Nada Lemming on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:21:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Since you CAN'T prove it I have to keep asking.nt (0+ / 0-)

          Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

          by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:22:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  it's been proven. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greeseyparrot, 0wn, pstoller78

            You have had ample opportunity to discuss any of the documents I linked yesterday, including government documents.  Yet you only responded to the blockquoted lines I provided from the links.  If you had read them, you'd have your proof already.  

            People have told you personal stories.  At one point someone even told you they thought you were the kind of person who would argue that gravity doesn't exist because you didn't see it.  

            I hate to say it because you are respectful in your responses, but I think all you're doing bow is trolling on THIS issue.  I don't know what the motivation is.  Are you a paid shill for Bill Gates or something?  

            Look I hate to flame and run, but I really do have to go.  When I get back at 10 tonight, I'll check back with you.  

            I hope by then you will have offered a constructive comment somewhere on this subject.  

            "You're going to love my nuts!" -Norm Coleman in that Slap Chopper commercial.

            by Nada Lemming on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:33:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  exactly Mike instead of exporting jobs to low (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LordMike, greeseyparrot, 0wn, gzodik

      wage countries they are importing low wage workers to undercut everyone's wages.

      To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

      by Tanya on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:13:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are they? How much are wages undercut (0+ / 0-)

        by?

        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:14:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I represent the professional staff in a research (9+ / 0-)

          institution and H1-b employees are in many cases are getting paid anywhere from 20k to 40k less then the previous employee

          To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

          by Tanya on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:15:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What does that have to do with the H1B program? (0+ / 0-)

            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

            by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:17:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Employers are firing highly paid Americans. (7+ / 0-)

              And replacing them with guest workers. It's called wage suppression and should be made a federal crime.

            •  they are replacing existing staff with H1-b visa (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LordMike, Marcus Tullius

              employees

              To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

              by Tanya on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:19:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ok but there aren't that many H1Bs available (0+ / 0-)

                and I still haven't seen proof of wages for US workers being lower because of H1Bs. Well that's not true. I saw a 3-4% drop in wages. Is that what you're talking about?

                Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:21:34 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  There's not much point (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Marcus Tullius

                  arguing with these people here on this issue. I've noticed a lot of them don't have their facts straight and are just looking for someone to blame. hey, let's blame the Indians. and the Chinese.

                  There is a law that if you hire H1-B's they need to be paid at or ABOVE what you would pay US citisens. If people aren't following the law, get more cops.

                  •  That's what I saw too. At or above. If the DOL (0+ / 0-)

                    isn't doing the job monitoring the program that's a different argument.

                    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                    by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:37:04 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Get more cops ... great (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rick, Brian B

                    People in the engineering and information technology professions have been trying to get the government to follow their own damn laws for the past 18 years!

                    And whether it was the Clinton administration, or the Bush Administration there was no action taken to actually try to enforce the wage issue.

                    I know who in the Senate added the part about replacing American workers with H1-Bs because I used used to work for the bank in that state that got a large TARP handout and in turn fired 185 IT workers and brought in 215 H1-B workers to replace them. The workers they brought in weren't even living in the area - they bussed them in (too cheap for airfare) and they are living 8 to a unit in an Extended Stay America.

                    So now we have 185 people that may or not be able to keep any homes they live in, or cars they drive, or even find a job in their profession let alone one that would pay anywhere near what they were making.

                    It isn't as if these new workers are more skilled - they may be - as they have them doing the exact same jobs as the workers they replaced. They aren't doing new work of any kind. They aren't employing any new technologies either. (If you don't know, most (but not all) banks are several years behind in many areas of technology).

                •  There are only 65,000 per year (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  pstoller78

                  But you have to understand two important things.

                  First, anyone coming in on H1-B that works in Academia, or for non-profits (hospitals for example) do not count towards the quota limit that is why there are more H1-Bs issued above the quota every year.

                  Second, the H1-B can be renewed year over year for 6 years I believe (could be 5) those renewals don't count against the quota either. That is why there are over 400,000 guest workers on H1-B in the US.

                  •  Ok but that's 1 month of layoff so even that (0+ / 0-)

                    isn't a whole lot.

                    There are a million or more immigrants coming each year. If even 1/2 of them are entering the workforce they easily surpass people on the H1B program in the number of jobs "taken" from US citizens.

                    My question is really this: Why is it that the H1B program is the one that Democrats are willing to blame rather than all immigrants? Is it because Dems are educated and these folks are directly competing with them whereas other immigrants aren't competing with them directly?

                    Dems don't complain about the busboy or the cooks taking their jobs. They complain about the Phds.

                    It's an interesting thing to watch.

                    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                    by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:39:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It would be one thing (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rick, Brian B

                      If workers in engineering and information technology were actually competing for a newly created job. But that isn't and hasn't been what has been happening.

                      In this downturn what we see in engineering and information technology is that companies are firing (layoffs in the IT/Engineering world are permanent there aren't any callbacks) American workers and replacing them with these H1-B workers. The reason is that they pay them 25K less than the American workers they replace. They get around the wage requirement by giving them the title and job grade of a lower paying position.

                      When there are new jobs being created there isn't much competition for those new jobs because the ads for them (required to run twice by law) contain skill requirements that (obvious as soon as you read them) could only match one and only one resume. If they are looking for 4 years experience with one skill, 3 with another, 5 with another and 1 with another an American will be rejected if they have all of those skills and in the case of one or more of those skills has more experience. Or you will see that they want some with 2 years experience with version 8 of some product. If you are an American and you have experience with that product from versions 5 through 11 over many years - including 2 years with version 8 - again you don't qualify because you have experience with other versions.

                      And the reason for that kabuki dance? Because they will be able to pay 25K less for that position.

                      People in my profession have been fighting against this unfair "competition" for 18 years already. This isn't something new. If there was fair competition for those jobs Americans would win way more than half of them but that isn't what has happened at all.

                      •  But immigrants aren't all competing for newly (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        capelza

                        created jobs either and I'm sure many factory workers and construction guys could voice the same complaints.

                        Why would Americans win way more than 1/2 of them when Americans are poorly trained in math and science compared to students from Asia?

                        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                        by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:15:03 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh boy ... it isn't anything like what you think (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          superscalar, Brian B

                          At all.

                          Here is a list of VISA classifications which are allowed to work in this country. Any work under any other VISA is illegal. It comes from the Social Security Administration - Visa Classifications that Allow You to Work in the U.S. - along with the numbers of workers in the country under those classifications which comes from (PDF) 2008Nonimmigrant Admissions to the United States: 2007 - provided by the Department of Homeland Security. Descriptions are from either document link provided.

                          Visa ClassificationDefinition2007 Totals
                          E-1Treaty trader or Treaty investor51,722
                          E-2Treaty trader or Treaty investor177,920
                          F-1Foreign academic student, when certain conditions are met787,756
                          H-1BTemporary workers with "specialty occupation"461,730
                          H-1CRegistered nurses participating in the Nursing Relief for Disadvantaged Areas49
                          H-2ASeasonal agricultural workers87,316
                          H-2BTemporary worker75,727
                          H-3Seasonal nonagricultural workers5,540
                          IForeign information media representative43,928
                          J-1Exchange visitor, when certain conditions are met443,482
                          K-1Fiancé of a U.S. citizen32,991
                          L-1Intra-company transferee363,536
                          M-1Foreign vocational student13,073
                          O-1Temporary worker in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics36,184
                          O-2Temporary worker in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics10,349
                          P-1Temporary worker in the arts, athletics in an exchange or cultural program53,050
                          P-2Temporary worker in the arts, athletics in an exchange or cultural program4,835
                          P-3Temporary worker in the arts, athletics in an exchange or cultural program11,900
                          Q-1Cultural exchange visitor2,412
                          R-1Temporary religious worker with a nonprofit organization25,162
                          TNProfessional business worker admitted under NAFTA85,142

                          Those two highlighted classes of workers H1-B and L-1 are the visas on which recipients are overwhelmingly participating in the engineering and information technology professions. No other numbers even compare. And together they are more than all other categories combined.

                          If you look at the overall number of American workers these numbers are quite small comparatively. However, if you look at just the professions and the industry they participate in you will find that they make up at rather large percentage of those professions. For example the Seasonal, non-agricultural workers, probably make up less than one tenth of one percent of total workers in the US. But when you have only a few million high tech jobs and upwards of 500,000 participants coming from immigration visas that makes up a significant amount perhaps 10 percent.

                          If other job areas had more than 10 percent of the jobs allocated to foreign workers there would even be more outrage.

                          Remember, unless someone is in on one of those VISA they can't work legally. So, if there are more working in some jobs (just from personal observation) than the DHS numbers indicate are here then they are working illegally. So it is likely that maids, construction workers, etc. are working illegally even if they are legally admitted under a different type of VISA.

                          J-1 and K-1 permit work under specific circumstances so not all are allowed to work.

                          •  Many Thanks For Your Work (0+ / 0-)

                            In collating this data. I have been looking for this data for quite a long time now.

                            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                            by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 05:33:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are welcome (0+ / 0-)

                            People have no idea just how stacked the deck can be in just one narrow segment (5 or 6 percent of the American workforce) of employment - engineering and information technology.

                            Finding the data was a pain in the ass. DHS buries it on their site but it can be found. The newer figures should be out soon for 2008. The SSA stuff was much easier to find. And finding information like this on the Department of Labor site would make things too easy but, as we all know, since the DOL acts like an arm of the US Chamber of Commerce when it comes to this issue.

                •  Hey there. I thought I'd find you in here :) (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tanya

                  USCIS's most recent report to Congress, which shows that the medium wage in 2005 for new H-1B computing professionals was just $50,000 -- even lower than the entry-level wages that a newly graduated tech worker with a bachelor's degree and no experience would command.

                  According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) as the measurement of U.S. wages, and the H-1B LCA disclosure data to measure H-1B wages, 90% of H-1B employers' prevailing wage claims for programmers were below the median U.S. wage for that occupation and location, with 62% of them falling in the bottom 25th percentile of U.S. wages

                  Interestingly, the article doesn't go on to say whether or not overall wages are depressed by this.

  •  Oh, no. (6+ / 0-)

    It's a good thing I have to leave the house now, or I'd stay in and get into a flame war, like yesterday. :)

    Good job for finding some sources, HEAT. I got your back.

  •  We may yet regret all the H1-b bashing that's (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arodb, johngoes, Rebecca74

    been going on in America over the past years.  The truth is, half the Americans that are hired have to be trained for months because they come out of American universities so stupid compared to students from China and India.

    The joke is now the H1-b's don't have to kiss America's ass anymore - they can go to high-paying jobs in economies that aren't imploding.  Also, when they look at the stimulus package, they can see that America isn't planning on investing that much on science and technology.  If the H1-b's want to work in construction or be teachers, fine, but if they want to work in cutting edge technology, America isn't going to be the place.

  •  Why would they stay here when all the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, Black Leather Rain

    jobs are in their native countries?  


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:16:10 PM PST

  •  You're confusing two different things. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, Katie71, drache

    First of all, there are immigrants, who are normally entrepreneurial types who have the kind of skill sets which make them an asset to this country. And then, there are the H1-b workers, who are temporary guest workers who are only here for a short period of time and who have to leave after a certain period of time.

    •  you are wrong on this (7+ / 0-)

      h1b's are one of the few visa's that can apply directly for green cards...while you are right, they can leave, many stay and become citizens.

      It's about a 8 year waiting list from what I understand now (from application to approval).

      First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win - Gandhi

      by mysticlaker on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:18:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK, I stand corrected. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        soros

        But in that period, employers can pay these people for very low wages, and they can threaten them with deportation if they ever complain about their working conditions. It seems like a perfect way to engage in union busting and wage suppression.

        •  Eternal (0+ / 0-)

          the H1B visa is valid for 2 3yr terms, that a total of 6 years. If the waiting list for  green card application if 8 years, what happens in between?

          "We're wearing short sleeves because we have to roll up our sleeves and clean up the mess that we inherited." -D. Axelrod 2/12/09

          by ruff4life on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:08:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you can show that you/your company (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza

            filed a GC application, you are in status (H1B continues) till your GC application is processed. If you want to leave the country for some reason (business/death/family issues)you have to appeal. My understanding is that USCIS grants you blanket reentry authorization upon that appeal. That authorization is valid till your GC application is decided. If after 8 years USCIS denies your GC application, you have I think 60 days to leave the country.

            Rabindranath Tagore-"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

            by joy sinha on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:07:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I personally think this is a good thing. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alisonc

    More jobs for Americans if you ask me.  I am not against imigration or imigrants, but the fact is, this is part of our problem.

    People are leaving not just because of opportunity elsewhere, America has become a very over-rated and very expensive place to live.

    You will also see Mexicans leaving because they can't find work, then Americans can get jobs again.

    Immigrants can go home and to be honest I wish I had that option to leave because I would too.  America is going down hill and its going to get worse.

  •  Don't fall for big business propaganda. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rick, Futuristic Dreamer, drache

    "Peace cannot be achieved by force. It can only be achieved by understanding" Albert Einstein

    by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:18:46 PM PST

  •  Of course they are upbeat... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenskeeper

    ...they have the ability to blatantly undercut any US workers by 40%, that more than balances out any innovation edge we might gain (if there is one, that is not a definite thing) as no one will pay the "innovation premium" (as everything new costs more for the first several years of its existence) when the price disparity is that great.

    The US is now a 3rd world country, China and India are first world now based on the real economic indicators (basically increasing of the median wage adn things like that, not BS like GDP which is as phonied up as a playboy pictorial).

    "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

    by Mister Gloom on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:27:03 PM PST

    •  40%? (0+ / 0-)

      Where is the study that shows that?

      Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

      by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:29:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Talking offshored jobs and China and India econom (0+ / 0-)

        ies, I mean take a look at what the offshored jobs to China earn.  If anything I overstated the case.  Note I was talking about the upbeat mood in China and INdia, which doesn't directly deal with H1B visas but rather workers who received jobs offshored from America.

        "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

        by Mister Gloom on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:32:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gotcha. Thanks (0+ / 0-)

          Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

          by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:34:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hey... (0+ / 0-)

            ...you and I had the H1B Visa debate, while I don't think I did badly in the debate I don't want to retread ground.

            Now, the fact that China & India are undiscovered economic powerhouses while we are basically a third world nation, that's a problem.

            "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

            by Mister Gloom on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:36:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well we're allowing ourselves to become one. We (0+ / 0-)

              don't produce enough educated people to compete and the ones that come here we give a hard time.

              Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

              by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:41:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Interesting 'Fact' (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                0wn

                We don't produce enough educated people

                How many 'educated people' do we produce, and what is the number that we need to produce to 'compete'.

                By the way, you should know first that I am of the mind that 'competing' has little to do with education, and much more to do with the access to cheaper labor and lax environmental laws.

                But ... do tell, how many 'educated' people do we produce, and how many 'educated' people should we be producing.

                <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:46:53 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  There are plenty of educated American workers (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rick, Futuristic Dreamer

                to fill these skilled positions. The problem is some businesses want these people to rack up lots of debt for a good education, then work for third world wages.  

                The message that there aren't "enough" skilled American workers to fill these jobs is a dishonest dodge to justify importing lower cost labor.  

                A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. FDR

                by Betty Pinson on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:48:35 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The reports I've seen say otherwise (0+ / 0-)

                  Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                  by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 01:57:08 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'd like to see more data (0+ / 0-)

                    and more than reports written by companies who have a conflict of interest on the issue.

                    Saying we have a shortage of highly skilled tech workers because there's been a decline in people employed in that industry doesn't necessarily mean there aren't enough qualified individuals.  It could also mean there aren't enough jobs in the field or enough pay to keep those workers interested in continuing on that career path.

                    We certainly couldn't trust the Bush DOL to provide accurate data on the issue, but we should be able to trust Obama's appointee.  Let's wait until Solis is confirmed and take a more objective look at it, one that reflects the US current job market.

                    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. FDR

                    by Betty Pinson on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 05:56:34 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  That proves nothing... (0+ / 0-)

                    ..that's an industry shill using an effect to prove a cause, which is loopy to begin with.  

                    A huge part of the issue is that the chronically age discriminated groups in IT especially often don't get hired and drift either into a related field that doesn't get counted (the software engineer who got downsized at 50, was unable to get hired, possibly due to age discrimination and became a college professor...he was featured in a US News article on the changing economy) don't get counted, the students who get short-shifted by the job market and take the "wing and a prayer" start-up route also would be harder to count.

                    So that article is fatally flawed and proves nothing.

                    "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

                    by Mister Gloom on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 10:22:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Respectfully disagreed... (0+ / 0-)

                ...the educated people we're producing are getting priced out of jobs so there is no incentive for future generations to educate.  I mean, I'd have made more money selling furniture right out of high school without bothering with a degree for all the good its doing me, and young people can pick-up on that.  WE have a huge number of unemployed engineers and high tech workers, they're educated and that hasn't helped them one damn bit.

                "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

                by Mister Gloom on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 10:01:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  no such thing as 'taking our jobs' (4+ / 0-)

    It's a false notion in and of itself, because it assumes that there are a finite number of jobs to be had.  When someone takes a job, he/she then spends money earned and in turn creates other jobs.
    Our focus should be on growth.

  •  H1-Bs Create Jobs for Americans, not take away!! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    markw, Sentido, sunshineonthebay, johngoes

    Its difficult reading the comments on this thread as a result of the complete misinformation contained herein.  I recognize that the Tom Tancredo's, Lou Dobb's and Rush Limbaugh's of the world (and those of their ilk) have mad a living off of bashing immigration but I would have thought that this community would hold itself to a higher standard.

    First and foremost, H1-B visas create jobs for Americans they do not take them away.  http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/...  While admittedly there is fraud with H1-Bs that should be strongly enforced against the employer, the vast majority of H1-Bs benefit both the foreign worker and the US economy.  In fact, reliable estimates are that, on average, each H1-B visa creates 5-7 jobs for Americans.  http://www.nfap.com/...

    I hope them some kossacks will realize that our economy is not a static pie with pieces to be doled out individually.  Instead, if used properly and legally, the H1-B program allows the US economy to grow and jobs to be created for Americans.  Unfortunately, too many seem to be blinded by xenophobia to see the facts.  

    •  This is a load of garbage. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      0wn, Dems 2008

      I have seen job after job of my peers outsourced, insourced, etc.

      You really need to examine the agenda of the people creating the reports you reference.

      Rick
      08 Preference - Obama
      -9.63 -6.92
      Fox News - We Distort, You Deride

      by rick on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:08:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Reports show that non-US citizens (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dems 2008

        in the tech sector are responsible for about 500K jobs for Americans or something like that.

        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:16:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  non-US citizen (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, Futuristic Dreamer

          Also doesn't necessarily mean H1B.  Many of these workers have green cards.

          •  Sure but so what? They're not citizens and at (0+ / 0-)

            some point they weren't even residents.

            What's the substantive difference?

            H1Bs can become permanent residents. Why would people stop complaining about them just  because their residents?

            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

            by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:27:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  xenophobes won't stop complaining (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Futuristic Dreamer

              But there is a big difference.  Green cards are the channel for legal immigration.  Unless someone wants to make the point that we should stop all immigration the argument makes no sense.  And businesses are not allowed to turn someone down for a job because he/she has a green card versus being a citizen, unless it's a security issue.  It would be illegal for them to do so.

              •  Sure I understand the legal differences (0+ / 0-)

                but as far as the complaints go there shouldn't be a difference. They're still taking "our" jobs.

                Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:42:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  reminds me of when white supremecists (0+ / 0-)

                  Complained about black people taking their jobs.

                  •  That's why I find so curious about it, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sunshineonthebay

                    that and the clear class issue. No complaints about the jobs that require less education which are actually at greater risk of being lost.

                    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                    by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:56:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  bingo (0+ / 0-)

                      Everyone bitching about H1Bs, which are legally only given to foreigners if no American can take the job.  But the illegal immigrants working in farms and construction no one cares about.

                      •  People Keep Making This Statement (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        rick, Pozzo

                        which are legally only given to foreigners if no American can take the job

                        But it is not true. There is no requirement that 'no American can take the job' unless the employer is considered 'H1B dependent'.

                        But the illegal immigrants working in farms and construction no one cares about

                        To the contrary, I care very much about it and have been writing on the subject of illegal immigration here for about five years now.

                        <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                        by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:03:56 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  not true (0+ / 0-)

                          The employer has to make a case for why they cannot hire an American.  They have to show that they tried but couldn't.
                          Of course one can always find a loophole, or simply break the law and hope to get away with it, but the law dictates that they attempt to hire Americans first.

                          •  True (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Pozzo

                            H1B Attestation Requirements

                            The Department of Labor states that the H-1B law doesn't require employers to seek local talent before recruiting abroad for their US job openings, except in limited circumstances when the employer is considered H-1B dependent:
                            The DOL's Strategic Plan, Fiscal Years 2006-2011 (pg. 35) states: "... H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker."
                            The Federal Register, dated June 30, 2006, Section II, paragraph 4, "the statute does not require employers...to demonstrate that there are no available US workers or to test the labor market for US workers as required under the permanent labor certification program."

                            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                            by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:11:03 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  this link is making a false statement (0+ / 0-)

                            I have worked for companies who try to hire H1Bs, and have know people who were here on H1Bs, and I can tell you this is simply not true.

                          •  Great, Then You Should Have No Problem (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Pozzo

                            The employer has to make a case for why they cannot hire an American.  They have to show that they tried but couldn't

                            Finding that requirement at the DOL link.

                            The employer, before applying for H-1B status for any alien worker pursuant to an H-1B LCA, took good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for the job for which the alien worker is sought, at wages at least equal to those offered to the H-1B worker

                            One will note that the above requirement applies to 'H1B Dependent' employers.

                            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                            by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:26:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Unless the company is H1B dependent (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sunshineonthebay

                            Then they have to jump through hoops. So they couldn't lay off all most of their staff and hire H1Bs

                            An H-1B dependent employer is, roughly, one whose H-1B workers comprise 15% or more of the employer's total workforce. (Different thresholds apply to smaller employers.) H-1B dependent employers who wish to hire only H-1B workers who are paid at least $60,000 per year or have a master's degree or higher in a specialty related to the employment can be exempted from these additional rules.

                            H-1B dependent employers and willful violator employers must attest to the following three elements addressing non-displacement and recruitment of U.S. workers:

                               * The employer will not displace any similarly employed U.S. worker within 90 days before or after applying for H-1B status, or an extension of status for any H-1B worker;

                               * The employer will not place any H-1B worker employed pursuant to the LCA at the worksite of another employer unless the employer first makes a bona fide inquiry as to whether the other employer has displaced or intends to displace a similarly employed U.S. worker within 90 days before or after the placement of the H-1B worker; and

                               * The employer, before applying for H-1B status for any alien worker pursuant to an H-1B LCA, took good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for the job for which the alien worker is sought, at wages at least equal to those offered to the H-1B worker. Also, the employer will offer the job to any U.S. worker who applies and is equally or better qualified than the H-1B worker. This attestation does not apply if the H-1B worker is a "priority worker" within the meaning of Section 203(b)(1)(A), (B), or (C) of the INA.

                            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                            by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:15:44 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  But it is true that Dkos (0+ / 0-)

                          members only bitch about the tech jobs.

                          As far as your 1 diary about illegal immigration it doesn't clear much up...

                          Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                          by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:08:41 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The Fact That I Have Only Written One Diary (0+ / 0-)

                            On the subject of illegal immigration does not prove that I have not been here on the subject here for about five years.

                            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                            by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:15:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Still doesn't clear up (0+ / 0-)

                            much about your beliefs on illegal immigration or LEGAL immigration for that matter since H1Bs are here legally of course so the comparison isn't valid.

                            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                            by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:16:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Are You Always This Obtuse? (0+ / 0-)

                            The statement was made:

                            But the illegal immigrants working in farms and construction no one cares about

                            To which I replied:

                            To the contrary, I care very much about it and have been writing on the subject of illegal immigration here for about five years now.

                            To which you interjected:

                            As far as your 1 diary about illegal immigration it doesn't clear much up...

                            To which I replied:

                            The Fact That I Have Only Written One Diary. On the subject of illegal immigration does not prove that I have not been here on the subject here for about five years

                            Do at least try to keep up.

                            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                            by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:30:03 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's fine (0+ / 0-)

                            but your diary still doesn't clear much up.

                            Not that it matters.

                            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                            by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:33:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  BTW your only diary about illegal (0+ / 0-)

                            immigration is pretty useless.

                            Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                            by JayGR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 03:34:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  This is not true (0+ / 0-)

                        It is not true that the H1B's only get the job if no American will take it.http://www.dol.gov/sec/stratplan/stratplan_2006-2011.pdf

                    •  Actually that's incorrect (0+ / 0-)

                      Jobs with that require less education are at LESS risk of being lost in this day and age. Thanks to globalization, high tech jobs are easily transferable. Jobs in Accounting, radiology, patent law, engineering,architecture, journalism, software design, and computer programming are either being lost to offshore outsouring or given to people on employment based visas. Low skill, non tradeable services jobs are the ones that are safe. Jobs like barbers, waitresses, janitors, bartenders, retail sales clerks, fast food cooks are safe and according to BLS statistics, the overwhelming majority of jobs created this past decade don't require a college education.

                      •  Except that there are many more people (0+ / 0-)

                        able to take the low skilled jobs. Only a small percentage of the million immigrants a year coming to the US are well educated and they compete directly with the most replaceable people. Labor and service.  

                        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

                        by JayGR on Wed Mar 04, 2009 at 05:02:16 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  This is highly questionable... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...if someone is going to stay here, as with a green card, I consider citizenship to be a technicality.

                  THat charge ranks up there with you posting an article that claimed that an effect proved a cause because an industry flack claimed it did.

                  "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

                  by Mister Gloom on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 10:26:38 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Reports from who (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rick

          Sponsored or conducted by countries like Deloitte that have  vested interest in bringing in foreign workers or in outsourcing?

    •  This is true- some outsourcing misconceptions... (2+ / 0-)

      Many in this thread equate H1b workers with outsourcing. This is NOT correct. Outsourcing is packaging a job up that used to be performed in the U.S.A. and using a person in another country to do that job.

      I am a computer engineer in the field of verification. Before 2001, my company had >100 of my type of workers here (including H1b workers) Now we have 23 here and India has >200 computer verification engineers working for my company. That's outsourcing. It benefits no one at all in the U.S. - fewer jobs here, less cars bought here, apartments, houses, groceries, you name it, it's not being bought here, supporting local businesses and taxes because now the workers are "over there."

      It happens because my company found it much cheaper to hire the engineers over there and because they couldn't get enough visas to bring them here. I would prefer to open the floodgate of H1b visas and make huge monstrous tax incentives to keep workers in the U.S. be they Americans, Indians, Chinese, whomever - because they would be spending those dollars here, not "over there".

      "People the world over have always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power." Bill Clinton

      by johngoes on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:32:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, This Is 'Offshoring' (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johngoes

        Outsourcing is packaging a job up that used to be performed in the U.S.A. and using a person in another country to do that job

        Outsourcing is packaging up the job that you used to do and getting someone who has the domain knowledge and can (supposedly) do the job more efficiently and cheaper, do the job.

        EDS, IBM, etc., are examples of companies which take on outsourced tasks (like IT) from other large corporations. For example, I worked for IBM at (then) McDonnell Douglas performing IT tasks for MDD. I worked for IBM, I worked at MDD.

        Outsourcing has existed in the U.S. for decades. Offshore outsourcing, or 'offshoring', is a much more recent phenomenon.

        <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

        by superscalar on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 02:40:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  In terms of overall impact offshoring worse (0+ / 0-)

          Interesting view of the terms - I won't quibble with the terms as you defined them. My perception is that offshoring has accelerated to the detriment of the country. Given that small business is the driving force of a good-sized chunk of our economy, keeping any high-paid jobs here rather than India or China ensures a solid base of customers for the small business.

          I stand by the assertion that a massive tax incentive (as opposed to tax penalties) should be emplaced to encourage companies to not practice offshoring.

          "People the world over have always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power." Bill Clinton

          by johngoes on Wed Mar 04, 2009 at 04:19:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  offshoring and H-1bs go hand in hand (0+ / 0-)

        The Indian finance minister calls it "The outsourcing visa"

  •  H1b= indentured servitude for te corporations (0+ / 0-)

    I am all for attracting highly educated and talented immigrants. Folks- we are geting the cream of the crop here from China and India. It's a good deal for us. BUT the H1b program is extremely biased in favor of the big corporations. If an immigrant got an H1 job with a certain company, he'll be very likely to stay with that company for the next 5-10 years until he gets his green card. His status is tied to his job. If he gets laid off his visa will be revoked in 30 days. The commpany is more or less getting an indentured servant for that time.

    An alternative solution is- let's have the immigrant indentured to the US instead. Let's say we will let the top 10% of all top university post-grads stay in the country on temporary visas. They will be charged a surtax of an additional 20% for 7 years. The surtax will be put into social security. If they manage to be gainfully employed for 7 years and dutifully pay their surtax, then they have redeemed themselves and earned their green card. If not then they get sent home.

  •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Futuristic Dreamer

    An article in Businessweek telling us how great it is to reduce labor costs with cheap labor. now THERE's a unbiased source.

  •  Probably a related anecdote: (0+ / 0-)

    I know a guy (not Asian or West European) who got his PhD from MIT, did really good work during postdoc on cutting edge stem cell related research that could lead to potential therapeutics. A MNC pharma company was really interested in recruiting him but twice the deal fell through because of restrictive H1B. Finally company decided to transfer that research division to UK. And I am sure it is not a single person division. If my understanding of R&D in pharma is right, along with PhDs you have MS/BS techs too. I was told that most of the techs were fired. The rest of the techs (best of the lot) were transferred to other divisions. Now Her Majesty's govt get the tax money from the high paying PhD level pharma jobs, got extra jobs created (MS/BS techs, good pay there too), other service jobs that inevitably gets created on the side. Guess who loses? I am sure several NE/Mid-West city will give away a fortune to get those jobs. In the meantime Her Majesty' Government must be laughing their ass off.

    Rabindranath Tagore-"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

    by joy sinha on Tue Mar 03, 2009 at 04:03:52 PM PST

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