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Last night the News Hour carried a report and the discussion with Petraeus and Holbrooke.

This is the site page link where you'll find the transcript as well as the links for audio and video.

This link will give you their Video Player to watch from here.

There is No win in this now debacle. One thing about warfare these last couple of decades, outside of the bloviated power hawks talking tough to each other as others are sent to do the actual fighting, is every invasion turns to Guerilla Insurgency. It's lost as soon as the Bombs start dropping, the Missiles Destroy, the Military Invades, 'Hearts and Minds' turn to Hate as their countries are destroyed but more important as their Loved Ones and Friends and Fellow Citizens are Blown To Bits or Cut Down by the Bullets Sprayed, than add in the arrests of Innocents, the Blackhole Worldwide Prisons and most of all Torture, Innocents become Enemies Real Fast, Real Fast! They either fight back or support those who do! It becomes an extreme uphill battle to win back a majority of those 'Hearts and Minds'!!

Just ask yourself "What would you do if you were them?"!

Just think how many here felt after 9/11 and how that was used to kill and destroy many times over since!

Afghanistan stopped being about 9/11, in their eyes and the worlds eyes and minds as soon as the drums started beating towards Iraq. Security and money Stopped coming in to Stabilizes after the Taliban were removed and al Qaeda were forced to run, It Became The Quagmire That Exists Today and has expanded into Pakistan thus Inflaming the whole region even more!

Can stability be brought back, it's possible, but the Hate will be Deeply Embedded, especially in the children growing up in the destruction and death, the ones that survive, and will linger for their decades of life!!

The only way a Guerilla Insurgency ends is on their time Not The Occupiers, but it than can be inflamed when policy is perceived  to be against those common folks, and they've got the fighting experience!!!!!!!

Just an added note, the Escalation, not 'surge', did not bring down the death and destruction in Iraq, the Iraqi people, sects, did. And that situation is a match just waiting to relight at anytime, the world can only dampen that match so it doesn't until the Iraqi's decide. We destroyed that Pandora's Box, it's up to us to try and help rebuild a new one but only if they want the help, and ours is shit in that country, others will fill the void!!

Originally posted to jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 04:30 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  No Win, No Victory (10+ / 0-)

    Just more Death, Destruction and a Growing Hatred!!

    'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

    by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 04:32:01 AM PDT

    •  Great Stuff, As Always (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irate, jimstaro, dancewater, elliott, rb137

      and spot on.  I worry and think about that a lot.  I picture some small kid whose life has been horribly impacted and whose hope, innocence, belief in a future has been shattered by our actions and wonder what and who he'll be when he is grown.  

      The cycle must be broken.  For all the kids.

      Recommended.

      You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

      by mattman on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 04:54:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm afraid it's a sad truth. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattman, jimstaro

      It will be the strongest and most brutal of the lot who assume power, I'm afraid. And I expect that they're just waiting around for us to leave so they can get to the alpha battle.

      I can't imagine the number anti-American Jihadis we've created. Dick Cheney is fond of saying that he's made the country safer now. That's dubious, but even if it's true, he's made the country much, much less safe in 2025. Not at all unlike the AIG people who couldn't see beyond next quarter a few years ago...

      Either this sentence is false, or I am a toad.

      by rb137 on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 04:58:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Afghanistan is about oil and gas pipelines. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mattman, jimstaro, chigh

    Nothing more than blood for oil as usual.

    St. Ronnie was an asshole.

    by manwithnoname on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 05:05:02 AM PDT

  •  "Finding Our Voices" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mattman, rb137

    "Finding Our Voices" Trailer

    Visit Finding Our Voices to order the film, download discussion materials, host a screening and much more!

    'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

    by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 05:07:57 AM PDT

  •  There is another truth... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caj, LynneK, jalenth, joe from Lowell, gwh

    We can't let Afghanistan and regions of Paksistan become Taliban controlled havens for Al-Quida and other terrorist groups to live, train and act with impunity.

    Go look at how the Taliban treat women and those who don follow their strict interpretation of Sharia law.

    Al-Quida can master mind and carry out plots like 9/11 or saws of the heads of their captives in the name of religion.

    Look at the London train bombings. Or the storage facility in London where they found large quantites of commercial fertilizer that was going to used for nefarious purposes.

    Pakistan is a nuclear power with a very fragile government. We can't afford to walk away Afghanistan and let it descend back into an Al-Quida stronghold

    •  It's Past Time (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattman, dancewater, chigh, rb137

      To stop them from controlling, Apparently You Can't Read, nor might I Add Think Critically!!!!!!!

      We've Created more and more, the only way to Surpress that Hatred is by Doing what We Say We Are and Actually Start 'Winning Hearts and Minds, the longer this continues the Greater the Hatreds and Numbers of those that do, Against Us!!!!

      If you're so Hell Bent why are you sitting at your keyboard typing, go take care of it 'rambe' Your Way, you won't last long!!!!

      'Nam '70-'71

      'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

      by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 05:28:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hey 'rambo'........... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattman, dancewater, chigh, rb137

      "The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and these are ignorance, superstition and incompetence." - Elbert Hubbard

      Just one 'Thought' to chew on, that's you!!

      'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

      by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 05:30:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey Kumbaya singer... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LynneK, jalenth, gwh

        Al-Quida, operating under the protection of the Taliban, in/from Afagnhistan, master minded a plot that hijacked and crashed two jetliner full of passengers into the heart of New York City killing thousands. The Hit the Pentagon with a another and would have hit either the White House or the Capitol Building if the passenger on board the last on hadn't stopped them.   They nearly toppled our government.

        Iraq was an uncessary elctive action. Afgahnistan was self preservation. We were attacked.

        The aftermath of the Soviet-Afghan War left a devastated country with a power vaccuum. The soviets wiped out their non-opium agrigulture and most of their industry. Both sides left a war-torn country, heavily armed with no power structure.

        We arn't at war with the Afghanni people. We are at war with Al-Quida and any who harbor them.

        Our miltary has had a program in place for several years where the are building or rebuilding infrastructure their. Build roads, bridges schools etc.. I have a relative that was involved with program for a year.  They worked with Afghan people, had joint construction projects, taught some of the english in their spare time etc..
        We have good memn and women over there making a difference.

        Though even at that task they had conveys attacked.

        Our miltary is not evil.

        On the Tailban.  Pakistan let the Taliban take over the Swat Valley months ago. This had been a thriving tourist area, with a ski resort. One of the first things they did is close or distroy all of the girls schools.

        Examples of Taliban punishments:

        In October 1996, a woman had the tip of her thumb cut off for wearing nail varnish.[11]
        In December 1996, Radio Shari’a announced that 225 Kabul women had been seized and punished for violating the sharia code of dress. The sentence was handed down by a tribunal and the women were lashed on their legs and backs for their misdemeanor.[25]
        In March 1997, a married woman, from Laghman Province, was caught attempting to flee the district with another man. The Islamic tribunal found her guilty of adultery and condemned both her and her lover to death by stoning.[26]
        In May 1997, 5 female CARE International employees with authorisation from the Ministry of the Interior to conduct research for an emergency feeding programme were forced from their vehicle by members of the religious police. The guards used a public address system to insult and harass the women before striking them with a metal and leather whip over 1.5 meters (almost 5 feet) in length.[1]

        Public execution of a woman, known as Zarmina, by the Taliban at the Ghazi Sports Stadium, Kabul, November 16, 1999. The mother of seven children had been found guilty of killing her husband while he slept, after allegedly being beaten by him.[27][28] The footage can be seen here.[29]In 1999, a mother of seven was executed in front of 30,000 spectators in Kabul’s Ghazi Sport stadium for the murder of her abusive husband. She was imprisoned for 3 years and extensively tortured prior to the execution; yet she refused to plead her innocence in a bid to protect her daughter, reportedly the actual culprit.[30]
        When a Taliban raid discovered a woman running an informal school in her apartment, they beat the children; threw her down a flight of stairs causing her to break her leg; and then imprisoned her. They threatened to publicly stone her family if she didn't sign a declaration of loyalty to the Taliban and its laws.[14]
        Many punishments were carried out by individual militias without the sanction of Taliban authorities as it was against official Taliban policy to punish women in the street. A more official line was the punishment of men for instances of female misconduct; a reflection of a patriarchal society and the belief that men are duty bound to control women. Maulvi Kalamadin stated in 1997, "since we cannot directly punish women, we try to use taxi drivers and shopkeepers as a means to pressurize them" to conform.[1]

        •  You Could (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dancewater, chigh

          have given your fingers a rest and Not wasted all that effort on BullShit!!

          Especially about Iraq and like I said above Afghanistan Stopped being About 9/11 when We Went To Iraq, now we have the al Qaeda types All Over the region, and they don't even need to take that false moniker, and the ranks are Growing Not Suppressing!!!

          Once again, 'little rambo', join your wacko thoughts and go, and again You Won't Last Long!!!!!

          'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

          by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:43:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You are an insulting (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joe from Lowell, gwh

            condescending prick who is obvious not going to listen to anyone's opinion.

            Go have a nice discussion with yourself.

            •  Tell Ya What 'little rambo' (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              chigh

              Seen as how you like to play as a typist and with Not One Critical Thought Cell, write and post a Diary, you could even just copy and paste the crap above, just add tags!!!

              'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

              by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:51:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Caj

                I can learn how to type, but I'm afraid you will never learn how not be an @$$hole. I do have some nerve damage in my hands and am sloppy with spellceck

                My critical thinking is just fine.

                The Taliban imposes an intrprets Sharia Law in an extreme way. They are abusive to women. They harbored an organization that did great harm to our country.

                Pakistan is a nuclear power with a fragile government, with pocket of Al-Quida.

                We can not pull-out of their and levae them to their own device.

                Now have a nice day @$$hole.

                •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dancewater

                  I can learn how to type, but I'm afraid you will never learn how not be an @$$hole.

                   
                  I often tell people the opposite:  no amount of education or brains will make me right all the time, but I can always be polite, and so can anyone.
                     
                  I have an excuse for occasionally mistyping, being misinformed, or making a mistake; but there's no excuse for some dude to be a jerk in response.

            •  Oh (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              chigh

              And you're right as to Total Idiots like you, I am a Prick but one who Thinks from Experience and Reality, not to mention the Facts!!

              'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

              by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:54:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I loved this part: (0+ / 0-)

          They nearly toppled our government.

          Hey, if 19 guys with box cutters can 'nearly' topple our government, I think we should just throw in the towel right now!  There is no hope!

          The occupation of Iraq will not be disrupted. - Chris Hedges 3/2/09

          by dancewater on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 02:32:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm pretty sure "enemies at home" didn't do 9/11. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caj, gwh

        Although I doubt you'd agree.

        •  must be def mos (0+ / 0-)

            or whatever that guy on Maher last night calls himself.The last time he was on he said our government brought the towers down somehow and killed all those people.He was even more of an idiot last night.He's funny though,even if he wasnt always trying to be.The man who commands the group of terrorists who killed our people in our country is still alive,kicking and inspiring others to take up his cause.To just give up trying to kill him seems like a very bad idea to me.I havent seen anyone give a reason why we should just let bygones be bygones.We already know its going to be harder now but the fact remains that he's still out there and we have a duty to kill that motherfucker and prove that the only reason he survives is that Bush failed to do his duty and eliminate this threat.President Obama said he was going to redirect our efforts towards talking him out in his campaign so this isnt really a surprise.

          •  I have. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gwh

            I havent seen anyone give a reason why we should just let bygones be bygones.

            In the runup to the war, Cheney and Bush were practically saying this---Cheney arguing that Bin Laden was not really much of a threat for the time being, Bush saying he really didn't think much about him.

            Just imagine if a serial killer murdered thousands of people, and law enforcement decided to give him a pass on the grounds that he probably wouldn't do it again for a while.

            I would rather have a president who understands that catching Bin Laden is a matter of both justice and national security, not a mere matter of whether he is killing us at this precise moment.

      •  I think this line of argument is silly. (0+ / 0-)

        "The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and these are ignorance, superstition and incompetence." - Elbert Hubbard

        Obviously Al-Qaeda was an external threat to America, a threat that manifested on 9/11 and several times before that.  

        It's astonishing that someone can look at the 9/11 attacks and simultaneously believe that our only threats are internal ones---and furthermore, that a quote from some dude basically amounts to a compelling argument.

        •  take a look at what is happening now (0+ / 0-)

          in the USA - we are suffering severe financial problems, which are totally home grown.  And they came from ignorance, superstition, and incompetence.

          And I guarantee that they will have much more impact and lasting influence on most Americans lives than the events of 9/11.  And considering that we have spent a half trillion dollars in our wars since 9/11, and have managed to kill even more Americans than were killed on 9/11 (not to mention the over one MILLION INNOCENTS), then really, I do think it would have been better to totally forget about doing something in response to 9/11 and just do nothing.

          And I left out the repercussions at home - all the silly airplane searches, snooping on Americans, over one million names on the 'watch' list, and hyped up police state.

          It is just beyond silly.

          And, on top of all that, we have been doing this for going on EIGHT YEARS NOW, with no end in sight.

          And Bin Laden still makes videos, and can easily move some place else if the US bombs get too close, and terrorism is growing like crazy around the world.

          Or - in other words - our response have been a total failure, because it was driven by ignorance and incompetence and superstition.  

          Bombing Afghanistan and Pakistan to get bin Laden and his group makes as much sense as bombing Murphy NC to get Eric Rudolph.

          The occupation of Iraq will not be disrupted. - Chris Hedges 3/2/09

          by dancewater on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 02:40:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Diplomacy Is Better (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rb137

      The US has serious threats in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Using our military (and intel, and torture...) the way Bush used it is guaranteed to backfire.

      What we need to do is diplomacy. Which of course is backed up by the military. Our State Department leading development in Afghanistan that is protected by the military is the best way. Our State Department leading a lot of combined efforts in Pakistan, with minimum military, is the best way. After we've given these people a better alternative to medieval Inquisition under the Taliban and suicidal self defense under the Qaeda, showing them they're safe with us, it will be a lot easier to pick off the shrunken Taliban and Qaeda.

      There will be blood. But everything we do to minimize it under equally aggressive and strategic diplomacy will increase our chances and speed of success.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:56:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The most fascinating thing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    about noninterventionists is how they have gotten to the point now that any disagreement with them is a sign that their opponent is a immoral chicken hawk, worthy only of contempt.  I remember a year or two ago Glenn Greenwald started or was involved in a giant blog war complaining about how noninterventionists are treated as unserious by the Foreign Policy establishment.  This comment section is the reason.  There is no debate or discussion.  There is an answer before the question is asked.  And any disagreement is clearly immoral.

    •  Not (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattman, dancewater, rb137

      Non-interventionists!!!

      But also Not Support of Wars of Choice, nor Occupations on Arrogance, the Choice Built On Lies of those Who Don't Fight Them, and Ignoring the Deaths of the Innocent!!!!!!!!!

      Apparently you would feel more comfortable if this did become a Dictatorship of Total Control and Hawkish Ideology, as long as you can type away and not participate in the whims of those Hawks!!

      'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

      by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 05:53:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What the hell (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LynneK

        does that even mean?  I would be comfortable if comments like "Maybe the US has legitimate security interests in the AF/Pak area that can best be addressed the the use of military force" are responded to with a "I disagree, history shows such force won't work because..."  Or "Maybe, but such force would be immoral"  or anything really besides "Why don't you go fight chicken hawk"  "Its about oil Rambo" or the other noninterventionist bullshit.
        Incidentally
        "Not Support of Wars of Choice, nor Occupations on Arrogance, the Choice Built On Lies of those Who Don't Fight Them, and Ignoring the Deaths of the Innocent" is just an assholes way of saying noninterventionist.

    •  Exactly. This guy is a Bizarro-World Limbaugh. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      iRobert
  •  non-interventionist! (0+ / 0-)

    mea culpa!

  •  Politics by Other Means (0+ / 0-)

    Guerrilla insurgencies can work only when there's popular support for the guerrillas operating in their area, or where the guerrillas have beaten the population into "supporting" them - or where the guerrillas are supported by a state power. Warfare requires both constant materiel resupply (weapons, food, boots, vehicles, fuel) and a lack of snitches, moles or thieves.

    Guerillas supported by the local population only through force are the most vulnerable, and counterinsurgency that focuses on protecting that population, not necessarily even going on offensive against the guerillas, is the surest path to victory.

    But the other scenarios are primarily political problems. State supported guerrillas are best targeted at their supporting state, which is primarily a political problem, though conventional warfare with that state's national army can also pressure either political changes or compete with the guerrillas for military resources.

    Genuine local popular support for guerrillas is a political problem of a different sort, though. In that case, the guerrillas are very likely freedom fighters, an actual expression of democracy, as our own founders' local militias were (and eventually, our Continental Army). In that case, the political problem is how to transition the population from defending itself - or pressing offensive claims - primarily through warfare, into purely political means. That usually means removing a military force the guerrillas are fighting which the local population opposes. Then the conflict can be moved into negotiations and elections.

    In each case, the methods are almost entirely political, with at most military tools for specific political strategies. As most war does indeed devolve these days into guerrilla warfare, and the US is clearly bogged down worse than most countries in it, we should be reinvesting even more in political "forces" - diplomacy - than in military to support it. Diplomacy has the extra bonus of helping create things, rather than the military which can only destroy.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:50:43 AM PDT

  •  Helping the Afghans (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dancewater, chigh

    2 coalition troops killed by Afghan soldier

    Two coalition service members died and another was wounded March 27 when an Afghan National Army soldier reportedly opened fire on them, officials in Kabul said in a press release.

    A fourth service member appeared to be unharmed but was evacuated to a medical facility for evaluation. The Afghan soldier is reported to have killed himself immediately after the incident, which happened about 2:20 p.m. on March 27 in northern Afghanistan. No more details were available.

    'Hearts and Minds', "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live there." -- President Lyndon Johnson

    by jimstaro on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 07:10:41 AM PDT

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