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After reading throughout the Netroots some of the concern vis a vis the latest Motion to Dismiss filed by the Department of Justice in the FISA lawsuit, I thought I would give my perspective, as a local government attorney, on what is going on.

Regardless of the context, if you work in government as an attorney, and you litigate (i.e. go to court), the first thing you do if you are sued is to look for a way out of the lawsuit.  It's that simple.  And there are plenty of immunities available to governments, whether federal, state, or local, to accomplish that goal.

I put the disclaimer up front: I'm no expert on FISA, the current lawsuit, or even all the immunities available to federal government at this point.  But I have read the Motion to Dismiss in the case (available here), and I give some of my very basic thoughts below...

Fact #1: This is a civil lawsuit for money damages and/or equitable relief. Plain and simple, the Plaintiff seeks monetary damages against the Defendants.  I.e., you committed a wrong, and the only way to make up for that wrong is pay money. Or in the alternative, it seeks equitable relief -- i.e., an injunction -- to prevent a future wrong.

Fact #2: The Motion to Dismiss was filed by the government Defendants in their official capacity.  Two important points here.  First, this is a Motion to Dismiss claims, or in the alternative, for summary judgment.  I can tell you as a matter of legal practice, any time a government is sued, there is a Motion to Dismiss filed, primarily to see if you can "knock out" at least some of the claims, or if you get lucky, the whole lawsuit.  Second, the "official capacity" part is key.  Simply stated, DOJ is moving to dismiss Defendants "The United States of America," "President Barack Obama," "Attorney General Eric Holder," etc. in their official capacity.  Official capacity is just like it sounds...you've been sued by virtue of the fact that a. you are a government agency or b. you work for that government agency in some official way.

Fact #3: As a general rule, governments and government official have immunity for acts in their official capacity. This is nothing new.  It is the concept of "sovereign immunity" which has been around for hundreds of years.  The general rule is established so that Joe Blow cannot simply "sue the government" for every perceived wrong that government does, because it would not be in the public interest for ALL for the government, as an entity, to have to defend said lawsuits or pay out damages in its official capacity. However, and this is critical, this does NOT mean a Plaintiff can't sue a government employee for wrongful acts committed in the scope of their employment in their personal capacity.  Indeed, in the lawsuit at hand, DOJ makes clear that they are filing this Motion for the government Defendants sued in their official capacity, despite the fact that many, many more are sued in their official capacity.  Keep in mind, there are immunities available to those in their personal capacity as well, which DOJ also raises.  But those immunities are generally not as strong as the immunity provided for those acting in an official capacity.

Fact #4: Asserting a defense in a lawsuit does not in any way equate official government policy. Trust me on this one.  I've had to assert defenses to lawsuits early on in the stages of litigation, as is the case in the FISA lawsuit.  And it does NOT mean in any way that it is some sort of policy declaration. It is doing what is necessary to defend my client from the relief sought by the Plaintiff. Plain and simple.  And that is especially true at the Motion to Dismiss stage.  Indeed, these issues are going to be litigated not only at the trial stage, but at the appellate stage.  And believe me, DOJ is going to continue argue immunities, because that's their job. Not only in this lawsuit but in all future lawsuits.  It is their job not to create policy, but to defend their client.  They are not simply going to roll over and say, "OK, you win, we'll pay you a truckload of money." Not going to happen.  And certainly not going to happen at this early stage of the game.

Now, it has been suggested that someone the new assertion of sovereign immunity made via the Patriot Act, FISA, etc. is breathtaking and such, but I just don't see it the way others do.  I look at it from the perspective of the government lawyer, and if there is another argument to be advanced to defend my client on immunity grounds, even if that argument hasn't been advanced before, I'm going to use it. And I'm reasonably certain that is what the DOJ attorneys are doing...their job to defend their client.  It has also been suggested that Congress, in passing the telecom immunity in the FISA revision claimed "Well, you can always sue the individual government actors," and that somehow, this Motion goes against the grain of that claim.  This Motion doesn't change that one iota.  Again, this is a Motion filed on behalf of the United States of America and related government Defendants, in their official capacity.  If a Plaintiff finds that Wendy Wiretapper, working for NSA,  violated a Plaintiff's civil rights, that lawsuit can still continue, but still be subject to personal immunities for official acts.

I am still wary of where this is going.  Clearly, I'd like some more policy assurances from the Obama administration with respect to the wiretapping issue, and changes in the law.

But you can't blame the lawyers for defending their client.  And you can't translate what they are doing to defend their client as a policy decision.  At least not yet.

UPDATE: Some people have stated that "why doesn't DOJ simply settle the case" or something to that effect.  Just wanted to point out that this is the BEGINNING of the lawsuit, not the END.  In fact, should DOJ's Motion get denied, we have no idea where this lawsuit goes.  There may be more incentive to settle at that point.  Fact is, we just don't know at this point.  But I would NOT expect them merely to settle the case just off the bat. That is rarely, rarely done.

Originally posted to wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:05 AM PDT.

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    If I wasn't so busy, I probably go research this a lot more.

    But my quick read of the Motion to Dismiss, and my own personal experience, gave me this perspective.

    Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

    by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:06:09 AM PDT

  •  It's the eternal issue, one of them anyway... (24+ / 0-)

    ...for progressive government at all level.  You know that you've done wrong ("you" being the institution, even though it wasn't on your beat and your arrival represents the political rejection of the previous regime's handiwork), but it's bad stewardship of public resources to 'fess up and pay for what you (institutionally) broke.  My instinct is to say the government is very big and can afford to pay redress for past wrongs that are pretty few in number, but I can understand the counterargument.  As you've said, the key thing is whether the underlying policy is being changed.

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:08:59 AM PDT

    •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tbetz, nickrud

      if the underlying policy is being changed, going after the people who carried out that old policy isn't always necessary.

      Going after the people who CREATED it might be helpful, though.

      But you want to get new policies in place, and if those people aren't in a position to create policy anymore, you can wait a while to get them.

      That gives you time to really build a good case, and figure out who to go after.

    •  No, sorry, the main issue is precedent (6+ / 0-)

      As Scott Horton says, in the U.S., we govern by precedent.  The argument of government immunity in this case is unjustified; it is yet another effort to allow the political class to evade the rule of law.
      I expected better of Obama.

      One cannot deny the humanity of another without diminishing one's own. James Baldwin

      by CarolynC967 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:44:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  exactly (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, Calfacon, polar bear

        If the arguments are accepted, then it is precedent and it is settled law.

        Are we really to believe that DoJ makes arguments in briefs that they don't want to be effective?

        "Torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough...the greatest recruiting tool that the terrorists have." Maj Gen Paul Eaton

        by whitewidow on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:03:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  They may be just doing their job (10+ / 0-)

    But it's still a little dissapointing that the President has been so slow in reversing some of these policies. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and time to get the policy right, but I hope he hasn't decided that maybe some of these things are necessary after all.

    "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by atlliberal on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:10:02 AM PDT

    •  I have a question. (9+ / 0-)

      You may not know the answer to this, but your comment made me think of it.

      FISA and the Patriot Act are actually laws, right? Not policies?

      Can they be reversed by the President or does it have to be Congress and/or the courts?

      (I agree completely that it would be nice to see some forward motion here, and that it makes me more than a bit uneasy that we haven't.)

      •  Acts of Congress made them and acts of (23+ / 0-)

        Congress can break them.

        The President has leeway only in as much as he can decided to utilize the powers granted by those laws or decline to act in ways that would require he justify them with the powers vested in him by those laws.

        •  Thank you! (8+ / 0-)

          I appreciate that clarification.

        •  Yep. It would set a very bad precedent... (27+ / 0-)

          ...for the President to pay out civil damages for an act that was legal by Congressional statute, and which has yet to be found unconstitutional by a court of law, simply because he disagrees with the law's constitutionality.

          Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

          by mistersite on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:28:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Act of Congress made wiretapping a felony. (7+ / 0-)

          Bush chose to ignore the law.  And now it appears the DOJ is trying to ratify that decision by:

          1. refusing to prosecute the criminal acts;
          1. trying to prevent citizens who were criminally wiretapped to be heard in court.

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:48:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yep. (7+ / 0-)

            I think some people are misinterpreting my very, very basic primer on the roles of the branches of government in creating and changing laws as some sort of defense of the Obama Administration and the DOJ - which it is not.

            I made the latter point about the President's perogative because he does have a choice in what powers he chooses to use while thinking about how he could decide for instance that much of the Patriot Act is crap and tell his agencies not to rely on it in their efforts to pursue whatever the hell it is they are pursuing these days.  He could tell his agencies to get warrants from the FISA courst for everything and that if they can't then stop doing whatever they are doing.  He has choices.

            He also can tell his DOJ that he doesn't want them setting forth potentially dangerous precedent-setting arguments that would result in an expansion of Executive power regardless of how "tasty" they may be in terms of a defense strategy.

            •  Well, since I was the one who asked the original (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              inclusiveheart

              question, I can say that at this point I am a little confused as to what counts as a policy that can be changed by executive order, versus a law that requires an act of Congress, etc., signing statements and so forth. In particular, I couldn't remember exactly what happened with FISA, thought I recalled that it was an act of Congress, but have seen so many suggestions that President Obama should just overturn it that I thought I might be confused or remembering it wrong.

              But I think you're quite right to point out that whether or not he can overturn the law, and how, and how fast is quite a different question from what he does with those powers in the meantime.

              Still different, to me, is what to do about the lawsuit.  

              •  FISA 1978 - or Title 50 USC Chapter 36 (2+ / 0-)

                Subchapter 1, Section 1800 et seq., was a law passed with the specific intent to limit governmental excesses by making it a felony for any government employee or officer to warrantlessly wiretap a US citizen. It was passed by both House and Senate, and when President Carter signed it, he made a specific signing statement to place the new law in its proper context, thus, to my mind, placing the blessing of the Executive Branch on the law:

                The bill requires, for the first time, a prior judicial warrant for all electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence or counterintelligence purposes in the United States in which communications of U.S. persons might be intercepted. It clarifies the Executive's authority to gather foreign intelligence by electronic surveillance in the United States. It will remove any doubt about the legality of those surveillances which are conducted to protect our country against espionage and international terrorism . . .

                In short, the act helps to solidify the relationship of trust between the American people and their Government. It provides a basis for the trust of the American people in the fact that the activities of their intelligence agencies are both effective and lawful. It provides enough secrecy to ensure that intelligence relating to national security can be securely acquired, while permitting review by the courts and Congress to safeguard the rights of Americans and others.

                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:42:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  A couple of clarifications... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bobdevo, 3goldens, brklyngrl, polar bear

                A signing statement really has no legal weight.  It might signal what a president thinks he wants to do, but he can't write laws so a signing statement really isn't a law.

                Executive orders are generally statements of policy - and he could send out an executive order saying stop the spying program today and he could stop it assuming that there is no law compelling him to keep it going.

                When people say Obama should just overturn something, they are either not clear about the process of repealing a law - which can only be done by Congress - or what they mean is that because Obama is a dem pres with a dem congress he can get the law overturned because he's the "leader of the party" - which is more likely under the present scenario - but not a simple undertaking even under the best of circumstances.  

                Getting laws passed is 100 times easier than getting them repealed.  That's why I tend to be very wary of new laws - especially given the poor quality of work that has come out of this general body for the past 10-15 years.  They've written some real crap and passed it - and I'm not just talking about the political problems with some of these laws - I'm talking about the poor structure and problematic real world applications of some of them.

                As far as the lawsuit - I think Obama should call up Holder and tell him to find a better way to deal with the situation than creating more dangerous precedent giving the Executive Branch more power.

                •  Absolutely true. But . . . . (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  inclusiveheart
                  1.  The "weight"if any of signgin statements is unresolved.  Certainly the courts look to legislative notes when interpreting laws, and, of course, Bush maintained his statements did have weight, or at least dared Congress to make him enforcethem.
                  1. Carter's signing statement emphasizes the participation of the Executive in the process by which and the purpose for which the law was made: to make any wiretap of an American citizen absent a warrant a felony.  

                  "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:27:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Come on now, it has been what...10 weeks? (18+ / 0-)

      a little dissapointing that the President has been so slow in reversing some of these policies

      Stop the Rhetoric, Stop the Violence!

      by cyeko on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:15:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Time (8+ / 0-)

      That's the same thing that's going to tell us if the Administration is taking the right road economically, as well as whether or not they'll start to put into motion actions to reverse the thousands of priorities that we all have.  Per my sig, for every 50 things he is handling right now, there are probably 200 more things at that same time that he logistically just can't move up on his priority list.  Immigration seems to be the next big thing looming, and there are plenty who feel, just like with this issue, that he isn't moving fast enough on that.    

      More than one thing at a time != Doing EVERYTHING at one time.

      by RinaX on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:19:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm willing to give it time (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattman

        I just think we should stay on top of these issues, since out of all the damage done during the Bush years, the loss of our some of our rights will be hardest to recover from unless we are vigilant.  I'm willing to believe that our current president will not abuse his power, but I'm not so sure about the next one, or the one after. If we don't fix these things now, we may not be able to later.

        "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan

        by atlliberal on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:27:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You should stay on top of it (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vernonbc, caps lock on, sherijr, Loose Fur

          Absolutely.  Just like those who have immigration rights, gay rights, prison reform, healthcare, etc., near the tops of their own priority lists should stay on top of those issues.  But last week's foreign tour by the President made me realize that he not only has all of the US issues to try to fit onto his daily agenda, but the issues of countries around the world.  

          More than one thing at a time != Doing EVERYTHING at one time.

          by RinaX on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:32:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  See also Jerry Brown WRT Prop 8. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      otto

      He's in a similar pickle to what the diarist describes.

      Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

      by Phoenix Woman on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:13:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think Brown's position (11+ / 0-)

        is not the same -- he is arguing that the Prop 8 restriction is a violation of the California constitution.  In the instant case, the DOJ is defending against a civil suit.  To cave means the plaintiff wins substantial damages.  The merits of the case address an injury, but not criminal culpability.

        Lawyers are required by their code of ethics to vigorously defend or prosecute for their clients.  DOJ is utilizing the defenses available to them.  While I don't particularly like it because I believe victims of the Bush reign of terror should be compensated, I think DOJ has been stuck with this defense.

        I've seen similar cases on a State level where a prisoner legitimate sues the State for injuries from excessive force.  The State lawyers utilize sovereign immunity in their bundle of defenses.  That doesn't mean they condone excessive force.

        I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution. -- Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:25:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I've been commenting all along in this vein (41+ / 0-)

    Observers are confusing a defense of a client with a government policy. We all want government policy to reflect much more openness, but the intricacies of a civil suit are not a suitable forum for such moves.

    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

    by MrMichaelMT on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:12:24 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for writing this (17+ / 0-)

    Interesting perspective. I think legal issues are complicated and Holder deserves some patience. They are still cleaning up the Bush mess and having to deal with problems they didn't create. If their legal argument is flawed then on this issue then the Courts will strike it down, and I will cheer.

  •  Ding ding ding (21+ / 0-)

    We have a winner.  Congratulations, wmtriallawyer, for providing the correct answer.

    You gotta give 'em hope. - Harvey Milk

    by abrauer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:13:30 AM PDT

  •  Thank you (10+ / 0-)

    But you can't blame the lawyers for defending their client.  And you can't translate what they are doing to defend their client as a policy decision.  At least not yet.

    That's my thing.  I can understand being wary, but as in most things that this administration has to deal with, time is pretty much the only thing that's going to prove one way or the other what the ultimate intentions are.  Personally, I think that a lot of these issues are going to be resolved via Congress, but in the meantime I am not going to stress out every time the DOJ files a motion in court and immediately jump to the worst conclusions just because they're using the tools available to them to defend their client.    

     

    More than one thing at a time != Doing EVERYTHING at one time.

    by RinaX on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:15:08 AM PDT

  •  I've had this feeling, ever since DOJ's filings (6+ / 0-)

    in Al-Haramain and other cases, that DOJ may be staking out egregious positions so that any judicial rulings that result will clearly and permanently destroy those positions.  No congressional waffle/law, no 'executive order' that can be revoked by the next rethuglican prez, just a permanent precedent stomping out of existence all the Bushco legal bullshit once and for all.

    I'm not convinced that's what's happening, but it fits the pattern of filings and Obama's cool-headed approach to things easily as well as the anti-Obama interpretations I've read.

    Conservatism is a function of age - Rousseau
    I've been 19 longer'n you've been alive - me

    by watercarrier4diogenes on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:16:40 AM PDT

  •  I don't know. I think DOJ lawyers (13+ / 0-)

    are normally expected to be sensitive about whether or not they are going to be engaging in some sort of precedent setting argument when they make choices about what their defense will be.  

    I think the DOJ has had and likely always will have a problem in that they have two clients - the Administration and the People and they often choose the interests of the Administration over those of the People.  Which undercuts the whole "of, for and by the People" concept of government.

    In any case, it is hard not to say that this is a policy-related issue since the only reason that the case is even relevant is that the secret spying has not been pulled back under this Administration therefore making it not just about defending the client in this case, but rather about defending the Administration's right to continue the policy.

  •  There's really only ONE troubling aspect (16+ / 0-)

    and that's the "state secrets" doctrine.

    But the DNI has explained that the disclosure of
    information concerning whether or not plaintiffs have been subject to alleged NSA intelligence
    activity would inherently reveal NSA intelligence sources and methods.

    It may be a moot point in this case, but in general, who decides whether this is a bunch of bullshit or not?  I think a court has to decide in an adversarial proceeding.

    "There is nothing more boring than the best collection of pro talent beating a real college team" jonthes, NY

    by Inland on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:19:01 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for posting this (9+ / 0-)

    it's is an interesting perspective. We don't have to agree with the policy, but it is a helpful to see it from the POV of the people who have to enforce the laws on the books.

  •  By signing a legal document, a lawyer certifies (6+ / 0-)

    that it is well grounded in law.  Is this new absolute executive immunity argument that the Obama DOJ has added to the Bush DOJ's state secrets nonsense well grounded in law?

    The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

    by lysias on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:19:15 AM PDT

    •  Strict sovereign immunity is not new (13+ / 0-)

      The Supreme Court has ruled that in a case involving the government's sovereign immunity the statute in question must be strictly construed in favor of the sovereign and may not be enlarged beyond the waiver its language expressly requires. See United States v. Nordic Village, Inc., 503 U.S. 30, 33-35 (1992).

      Source

      In Gibbons v. United States (1868), the Supreme Court held that the federal government could not be sued without the consent of Congress.

      Source

      I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution. -- Barbara Jordan, 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:34:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  correct, but the scope of argument is (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bobdevo, Calfacon

        Sad as that is, it's the Department Of Justice's second argument that is the most pernicious. The DOJ claims that the U.S. Government is completely immune from litigation for illegal spying — that the Government can never be sued for surveillance that violates federal privacy statutes.

        This is a radical assertion that is utterly unprecedented. No one — not the White House, not the Justice Department, not any member of Congress, and not the Bush Administration — has ever interpreted the law this way.

        Previously, the Bush Administration has argued that the U.S. possesses "sovereign immunity" from suit for conducting electronic surveillance that violates the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). However, FISA is only one of several laws that restrict the government's ability to wiretap. The Obama Administration goes two steps further than Bush did, and claims that the US PATRIOT Act also renders the U.S. immune from suit under the two remaining key federal surveillance laws: the Wiretap Act and the Stored Communications Act. Essentially, the Obama Adminstration has claimed that the government cannot be held accountable for illegal surveillance under any federal statutes.

        granted, that's according to EFF, who happens to be the plaintiff

        they are asking the court to ignore that FISAA created a statutory ability to sue for damages

        "Torture is the tool of the lazy, the stupid, and the pseudo-tough...the greatest recruiting tool that the terrorists have." Maj Gen Paul Eaton

        by whitewidow on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:24:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Johnathan Turley (7+ / 0-)

    ..has been pretty spot-on over the years. I've been following him since 2004. If this is so obvious, why would be be so mistaken, I wonder?

    How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

    by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:19:58 AM PDT

  •  The Statutory Damages (21+ / 0-)

    under the Wiretap Act are $10,000 per plaintiff.

    Since the plaintiff class is all ATT customers, plus any others whose privacy rights were violated in "the program" and it seems 'the program" involved not just traditional wiretaps, but also the acquisition of all call records without the statutory AG certifications (Ashcroft/Comey hospital caper) we're looking at total claims in excess of a trillion dollars.



    The Fear Machine has been turned up to eight.

    by ben masel on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:21:02 AM PDT

  •  I'm just sitting here (24+ / 0-)

    waiting for the dust to clear before I decide how I'm going to feel.  I'm not going to have a strong reaction one way or another until I feel comfortable that I know somewhat what's going on.

  •  er, no. (6+ / 0-)

    That's as lame as the "just following orders" defense.

    The lawyers who penned those words belong in a tumbrel.

    So long as men die, Liberty will never perish. -- Charlie Chaplin, "The Great Dictator"

    by khereva on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:24:33 AM PDT

  •  release the memos (7+ / 0-)

    That will do more than a thousand attorneys "doing their jobs."

  •  Diary gold (14+ / 0-)

    Perfect antidote to so much whingeing from the Torquedevilles and Cenk Ughs of the world. I, like Phoenix Woman, would love to see this diary on the rec list. Thanks.

    friend good, fire bad.

    by ericlewis0 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:28:29 AM PDT

  •  I'll rec (7+ / 0-)

    because it is important to receive information from ALL sides which will continue educating those of us who do not understand these laws.

  •  Correct me if I am wrong . . . (9+ / 0-)

    You state:

    As a general rule, governments and government official have immunity for acts in their official capacity. This is nothing new.  It is the concept of "sovereign immunity" which has been around for hundreds of years.  The general rule is established so that Joe Blow cannot simply "sue the government" for every perceived wrong that government does

    In this instance, however, there was an existing statute on the record, Title 50 USC Chapter 36 Subchapter One, Section 1800 et seq, making the implementation of a wiretap without a warrant a felony subject to punishment by up to 5 years in prison and a $10,000.00 fine(per wiretap, i.e., 1,000 wiretaps= 5,000 years in the joint and a $10,000,000.00 fine).

    When the law was passed, the presidential signing statement said:

    The bill requires, for the first time, a prior judicial warrant for all electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence or counterintelligence purposes in the United States in which communications of U.S. persons might be intercepted.

    Couldn't be clearer:  NO WIRETAPS ABSENT A JUDICIAL WARRANT.  PERIOD.

    The officials being sued used their offices and followed the orders of the president in committing criminal violations of US law.  Does sovereign immunity still obtain if the sovereign is indeed the malfactor?

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:31:03 AM PDT

    •  also - there is a general waiver (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lightfoot, TomP, happymisanthropy

       as the DOJ must note - found in the APA -

       We have always understood that the centuries old doctrine of sovereign immunity was subject to abuse by - well, hate to say it - a sovereign.  The framework for viewing the dispute is that the government passed a general rule that it can be sued - and that the burden is on the sovereign to blithely commit wrongs and then hide behind the privilege of a king.

    •  If immunity applies, it means that the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChurchofBruce, sherijr

      government cannot be sued for monetary damages in a civil case even if it is a wrongdoer.  Immunity is a threshhold question--it is decided without any consideration of the underlying issue.  I know that may not be morally appealing, but it's the law.

      I should also add that civil liability may or may not provide appropriate or adequate redress anyway--I doubt it would accomplish what people think it will accomplish (eg, make all the information public).

      •  So, if a government offical crushed a child's (5+ / 0-)

        testicles to make his parents answer questions, the parents can't sue the government??

        That's baloney . . . I've successfully litigated claims against the government in Federal courts.  See also - the general waiver referenced by Boxer7 above.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:40:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you litigated claims against the govt in fed (0+ / 0-)

          court, you did so because there were specific legal means for redress that were exceptions to the principle of immunity.  If the exceptions do not exist in a particular case, it doesn't matter how egregious the underlying act was.  In that case, the courts are obviously not the appropriate avenue for redress.

      •  What is, pray tell (0+ / 0-)

        the "appropriate or adequate redress" ?

    •  The section you cite, unfortunately, (7+ / 0-)

      doesn't give me much insight with respect to this lawsuit.

      Because I think the section you are citing is the criminal penalty, right?

      What does it say about civil remedies? Just curious.

      Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

      by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:37:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right, it is a criminal sanction . . . the point (2+ / 0-)

        being, however, that the tort complained of in the civil suit was also a crime, unless of course John Yoo is right, and the president is above the law.

        But is it not, at least constructively, a violation of civil rights for the government with premeditation and malice aforethought to commit a criminal offense against a citizen??

        The government may murder us with impunity and then cry sovereign immunity???

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:43:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well first off... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChurchofBruce

          I'm not sure how you go about proving that the United States of America, as the government Defendant, and as a whole, had the state of mind or intent of "malice."

          BUT if we are talking about individual actors (and I'm reasonably certain my diary made clear that we are NOT at this point)...malice is, of course, the way to defeat immunity vis a vis individuals.

          Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

          by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:47:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But the criminal sanctions ONLY apply (2+ / 0-)

            to government employees.  You can't charge a private person under FISA. The law was written to protect US citizens from crimes committed by their government.

            And from the language of the criminal sanction, it does not even set forth elements of the crime. It appears to be a strict liability statute, i.e., a person is guilt IF they warrantless wiretap.  No garbage about intent or mens rea.  If you do it as a government official, you are guilty.  

            Thoughts?

            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

            by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:52:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Would the President of the United States (0+ / 0-)

              be guilty or would it be the FBI computer nerd who is guilty?

              With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

              by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:00:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'd say both. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CarolynC967

                But the proof of the pudding is in the tasting . . . and the pudding is far from cooked yet.

                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:19:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, you can see why this is a problem. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rweba

                  Thus, the state secrets argument.

                  Because if the President is guilty, then so is the National Security Advisor, and so is the Director of the NSA, and so is the Chief of Surveillance, and so Lynus the Nerd. And if Lynus the Nerd says he was just following what he believed to be lawful orders, his lawyers are going to demand a robust defense, and so on and so forth all the way back up to the president.

                  I can certainly see how a ruling would most certainly undermine the Constitution explicit granting of powers to the President as those under his command ACTING IN THEIR OFFICIAL CAPACITY would have to question such authority if it would lead to personal liability. Especially if it was not entirely clear, because of sources and methods of protecting secrecy (like Lynus has no idea who he is wiretapping but his counterpart on the other side of the building does...for very sound security reasons) that Lynus was doing something illegal.

                  It's complicated stuff.

                  With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                  by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:32:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Where do you get the CRAZY idea (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Calfacon

                    there are explicit powers to disobey the law granted to the president under any paragraph or section of the CoOnstitution?

                    That is a myth created by John Yoo and David Addington, and the case law, specifically Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579 , says otherwise.

                    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                    by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:54:30 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The Constitution isn't a suicide pact. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rweba

                      You know that. Both Lincoln and Roosevelt violated the Constitution. I'm not saying its a good thing, or a healthy thing, nor should anyone, including Obama be allowed to do it without being called on it.

                      My point is that I can certainly understand why the President would argue a point: that revelation of the methods of our national security operations (necessary for anyone accused to mount an effective defense) would impede his duty to effect other laws with respect to the national security of the United States. Secondly, I can understand why "United States of America" as a defendant would argue soveriegn immunity.

                      This is why I think the best way to handle this is with a congressional truth commission that could redact as needed and use the power of public shame, rather than the blunt instrument of the courts, to resolve this matter.

                      With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                      by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:05:44 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  How did Lincoln? (0+ / 0-)

                        He suspended habeas corpus, but the Constitution says

                        The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

                        And, I'd say the Army of NOrthern Virginia being withing spitting distance of Washington qualified.

                        And what makes you think they would not claim states secrets and refuse to allow Congress to see what they did? They're already making that claim about state secrets in this case. And, if you recall, when Bush refused to turn over documents and the DoJ refused to enforce subpoenas, we were left with the only avenue of redress being impeachment.  

                        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                        by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:18:58 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  He did way more than that. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          rweba

                          It stands to reason if Congress writes the laws, only Congress can repeal them. Youre right the government had the power to suspend habeus corpus, but Lincoln did this by executive order. Lincoln ignored the law, and rightly so. He also exercised absolutely stunning violations of the takings clause and he did it at will without any authorization from Congress. He shut down newspapers by sending round a platoon and hauling off the presses. He impounded Congressional funds and imposed taxation clearly outside the bounds of the House of Representatives.

                          However, Congress could pass a statute creating the commission and use some language compelling secret testimony much as the intelligence committee has. This could be attached to the intelligence appropriation.

                          With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                          by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:49:58 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

        •  It could argue it. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bobdevo

          I doubt it would convince a jury, however. But most certainly a government could argue it has the soveriegn power to take life.

          With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

          by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:56:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Isn't the death penalty an example of (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Calfacon

            that?  Sigh.

            •  Or War, or Police, or Corrections. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rweba

              The only person that DOES have the right to kill people IS the Government. Now, I'm sure that an Iraqi could sue the United States government for going to war in Iraq, but the bottom line is that governments have the sovereign right to wage war. They have ever since there has been a such thing as government is the primary purpose for which they are formed.

              With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

              by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:55:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Again, only after due process or in the course (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                brooklynbadboy

                of some legitimate governmental function.

                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:00:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, in theory. But im sure dismissal (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rweba

                  is in the offing.

                  I think the courts will push back on the idea that the President or Attorney General are immune from this lawsuit, but im sure the case against the "United States" will be dismissed as requested.

                  With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                  by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:12:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Uh, yeah, after trial by jury and due process. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              inclusiveheart

              The whole problem with the wiretapping is, in spite of specific legislation making it a felony to wiretap without a warrant issued by the judiciary, the Bush Administration claimed they were above the law and the magickal powers of the Unitary Executive made it kosher to commit thousands of felonies.

              "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

              by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:59:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am not expressing a positive opinion in (0+ / 0-)

                affirming this principle.  Just saying that it is unfortunately pretty widely held that the freakin' government can decide to kill you if they fell like it - and that a lot of people accept that principle and even embrace it.

                I agree with you about the government's conduct on the wiretapping front.  And I think that the current DOJ motion that has caused this stir is shit frankly.  I don't think that there is any justification for those lawyers going and trying to make new law here at all.  Apparently they do though.

                •  But, it has also been established that if the (0+ / 0-)

                  government kills you, thereby depriving you of your constitutional right to life without due process, you do have a cause of action.

                  "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:14:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bobdevo

                    Too bad you're already dead though.

                    I am not a fan of the death penalty and I will never buy into the idea that the government can on the one hand tell people that they aren't allowed to kill anyone and on the other kill people when they see fit.  Because even if you have a good case against them, being dead and all means that it is too late for you - thankfully not for others and that's why those are good cases to pursue - but it is not really justice in my mind.

    •  in a word, yes (0+ / 0-)

      the application of sovereign immunity does not turn on whether the sovereign is the malefactor (or the alleged malefactor).  moreover, to the extent that such is a consideration, failure to allege that the sovereign has violated the law (i.e., is the malefactor) would supply the basis for a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim.  sovereign immunity (where applicable) is intended to protect the sovereign from suit when the sovereign is the malefactor or alleged malefactor.

      •  Then how is any civil rights claim ever made (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CarolynC967

        against the government?  There are clearly ways to pierce the veil of sovereign immunity, and to say otherwise is disingenuous.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:45:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Civil rights claims against the government (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChurchofBruce

          are made all the time, and generally defeated, unless (at least of the context of 42 USC 1983, where I do most of my work), a Monell claim is made, i.e., the Plaintiff must show an unconstitutional "policy, practice, or custom". Usually the Plaintiffs fail to plead such claims adequately, or can't demonstrate via evidence that a policy, practice or custom is 100% in violation of one's civil rights.

          However, those are usually unsucessful, because the civil rights claim is ALSO made against the individual government employee or actor, where the immunities are a lot less, and can usually be defeated to variety of means.

          Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

          by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:50:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Rational, well though out, truthful (8+ / 0-)

    you must be an Obamabot (whatevber the f that is)...

  •  MTD by Lewis Carrol (6+ / 0-)

     The Motion agrees that the law contains a general waiver of sovereign immunity - see the Adm. Procedures Act.  The Motion agrees that specific language in FISA and the Wiretap Act authorize suits - yet it twists that language to argue that such specific authorization overrides the general authorization - this is not argument - this is b.s.

     But there is a more fundamental matter - "state secrets"  - the whole idea of a "separate but equal branch of government" is that the executive may not have "state secrets" from the judicial branch -

     After reading the motion - I do not wonder why so many think the law is a joke - this is not serious argument.

    •  Agree 100% (3+ / 0-)

      especially  

      But there is a more fundamental matter - "state secrets"  - the whole idea of a "separate but equal branch of government" is that the executive may not have "state secrets" from the judicial branch -

      •  some of the language in the Motion is troubling (3+ / 0-)

        for instance read this, "once a court has upheld a claim of the state secrets privilege the evidence and information identified in the privilege assertion is completely removed from the case"   Motion to Dismiss at page 27.

         So - the executive tenders an affidavit from - in this case a self-interested DNI who says if you even subject me to putting on my proof it is a bad thing - and then according to the DOJ - we all must whimper away.

         This is precisely why the law as it developed in America became hostile to sovereign immunity.

  •  Oath to Protect & Defend the Constitution (4+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    willibro, Geekesque, Aranfell, Conure
    Hidden by:
    Loose Fur

    Attorneys take an oath upon admission to the bar to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  An attorney's obligation to represent the client zealously is not absolute.  

    It is a sad day.  

    Unfortunately, we will have to keep the impeachment option on the table.

    •  Go ahead, start the impeachment proceedings! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, Geekesque, Irixsh
      •  Impeachment? Yeah right-- Lets see them try it (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        askew, ChurchofBruce

        Go ahead and try to impeach Obama.  YOu will see a uprising in this nation like you have never seen in your life.

        You might even see a uprising in other countries.

        If you think the public will get behind a plan  to impeach Obama over soemthing most people don't even understand  you are sadly fucking mistaken.

        Listen, most people care about

        JOBS JOBS JOBS

        healthcare

        education

        energy

        Go ahead and try it !!!

        You are only 5-10% of the Dem. Party-- your effort will be crushed.

        •  Calm down (3+ / 0-)

          I'm not advocating impeachment - something we should have done with GWB.  But this action by the Obama Administration is a serious enough attack on the Constitution that the impeachment powers must be kept visibly in reserve, and the Adminstration must be reminded of this.  Protecting and defending the Constitution is not something that is done by following the polls or the masses.  

    •  No, their job is to quash lawsuits. (4+ / 0-)

      We have the poster's word for it: "DOJ is going to continue argue immunities, because that's their job"

      Not to seek justice. To seek immunity for anyone in the government who is sued. I guess we should start calling them the DOI.

      •  Well, now, that's an interesting point. (8+ / 0-)

        I don't know if it applies to all DOJ attorneys, but United States Attorneys are not subject to the same ethical standards as other lawyers.

        They are not mandated to zealously represent their client, they are required to see that justice is done.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:12:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  DOJ's Job is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bigchin

        I (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully
        discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

    •  Finally someone has some intellectual (0+ / 0-)

      consistency.

      Uprated, because this poster is saying what hundreds should be saying, if they believe what they say.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 04:43:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One question.... (7+ / 0-)

    If, heaven forbid, President McCain's DOJ had filed this brief, would you be defending it?

    Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

    by landrew on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:38:21 AM PDT

  •  take a peek at the rec list... (7+ / 0-)

    I love it when logic triumphs.

    friend good, fire bad.

    by ericlewis0 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:40:42 AM PDT

  •  There is a point where law and politics meld... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, thethinveil, Conure

    and the perception that is created with the way the law is created, argued and applied will have a greater effect, in my opinion, than what occurs in a simple motion.

    The same types of arguments are made in international law, that sovereignty is paramount, most usually by those who are attempting to avoid state responsibility when violating human rights.

    They may prevail from a legal standpoint, where consent to jurisdiction often takes precedence, but from a political standpoint, from the view of those who live in societies where rights must be fought for, yet are so easily abused, it soon becomes clear which side one is on.

    •  In addition, as Greemwald points out so well, (8+ / 0-)

      Democrats voted for FISA because civil suits could still be brought agaisnt the government, just not telecoms:

      When Congress immunized telecoms last August for their illegal participation in Bush's warrantless eavesdropping program, Senate Democratic apologists for telecom immunity repeatedly justified that action by pointing out that Bush officials who broke the law were not immunized -- only the telecoms. Here, for instance, is how Sen. Jay Rockefeller justified telecom immunity in a Washington Post Op-Ed:

      Second, lawsuits against the government can go forward. There is little doubt that the government was operating in, at best, a legal gray area. If administration officials abused their power or improperly violated the privacy of innocent people, they must be held accountable. That is exactly why we rejected the White House's year-long push for blanket immunity covering government officials.

      Glenn Greenwald

      Had Bush done this, the front page and rec list would be on fire with criticism.  Obama's DOJ did it, so we have convulted defenses.  

      And so it goes.  Hope.  Change.

      "What we've seen the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on an economic philosophy that has completely failed." -- Barack Obama

      by TomP on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:58:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They see it in a vacuum... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rolandzebub, TomP, Calfacon

        and explain it away in legalese, ignoring the politics:

        Previously, Obama opposed any immunity for the telecom companies. In February, Obama voted on a Senate bill against retroactive immunity. And when asked for CNET News.com's 2008 Technology Voters' Guide whether he supported "giving (phone companies) retroactive immunity for any illicit cooperation with intelligence agencies or law enforcement, " he answered "No."

        During the primary, Obama vowed to fight such legislation to update the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, the Times story said. But now he has switched his position to support a compromise bill that was worked out between the White House and Democratic Congressional leaders.

        The bill is expected to be voted on by the Senate on Tuesday after the Fourth of July holiday, the article said.

        Disappointed Obama supporters told the Times that they see the shift in the telecom immunity issue as a test of Obama's principles in opposing Bush's surveillance program. The article quotes Markos Moulitsas, a blogger and founder of DailyKos.com, as saying that he has decided to cut back the amount of money he gives to the Obama campaign.

        Why is it that, so often, when it comes down to principles, rationalizations abound.

        The fact is that Obama supports immunity.  He voted for it, and now the government does his bidding.

        One other blogger may help explain:

        In turn, Obama and other Democrats don't have evidence that elevating this issue -- potentially crowding out differences on the economy, gas prices and Iraq -- is something that enough people want to make it politically worthwhile.

        It is cynical, not at all hope.  Legal arguments and law are more concerned with politics than we would ever admit, but that is the reality of the world and our nation as well.

        •  In a funny way, I hope it is cynical and (0+ / 0-)

          not about a real belief that such invasions of our rights are acceptable.

          That argument I can understand, although I would disagree with it.  

          "What we've seen the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on an economic philosophy that has completely failed." -- Barack Obama

          by TomP on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:22:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  As I said above, he voted FOR immunity... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, Calfacon

            and, therefore, what would be more interesting is the outcome here if Obama had not flipped his vote in the Senate.

            It seems that this diary rationalizes as if Obama believes differently, but the government had no choice in the matter.  But his vote reveals his position.

            •  Good point. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Calfacon

              Yes, if he had stood on principle it would be different.  This is consistent with his actions, just not his rhetoric.

              "What we've seen the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on an economic philosophy that has completely failed." -- Barack Obama

              by TomP on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:31:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yep, And the political animal Obama... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                not politickley a stoot, TomP

                will be more evident as time passes in my opinion.

                Those who see him as a saint, relying on principle above everything else, an adherent to new politics, will be sorely disappointed and the cynicism created more pronounced.

                Have there been any principled stands by Mr. Obama?  I can sure cite political ones.

                But you see, this means I am a Freeper who would have preferred McCain!

                 

                •  In the end, what will matter most (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Areopagitica

                  is the unemployment rate in 2012.  If it is as bad as now, he will likely lose reelection.  People want jobs and shelter.  They expect Obama to delever and, while he will have along honeymoon, the expctations are very high.  Many expects a return to "good times" that will not happen no matter who was President.  

                  It will be interesting as this years college students graduate into a job market with few jobs.  I'm not sure what reaction we will see.  And next years amy be as bad or worse, with unemployment possible at 10% or greater.

                  Very mainstream economists are projecting that it will take years to get out of this.  

                  Nothing stays the same.  

                  "What we've seen the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on an economic philosophy that has completely failed." -- Barack Obama

                  by TomP on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:50:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  It is good to have you back... (0+ / 0-)
  •  Thank you SO much for writing this... (27+ / 0-)

    I was trying to determine this last night -

    I had some questions about how this works.

    Basically, it seems to me like the Obama administration isn't defending wiretapping so much as they are defending the law passed by Congress that provides them with the option to wiretap. If that's the case then the Obama Administration is obligated by their constitutional duty to defend their right to use this option...it's the executive branch's job to enforce the laws Congress passes and Congress passed a law providing this option so the Administration is obligated to defend this law/option.

    It doesn't seem like they're saying, "we're going to use wiretapping as we please" - it seems like instead they're saying, "we reserve the right to use wiretapping as we please because Congress passed a law that provides us that right".

    The only way this becomes dubious on the part of the Obama Administration is if Congress passes a law outlawing this wiretapping and THEN the Obama Administration says, "we're using it anyway".

  •  Doing their job by making asinine claims? (6+ / 0-)

    As much as I would like to believe that the attorneys are doing their job, the facts confirm my worst fears.
    Did then Senator Obama had to vote for giving immunity to telecoms? Was he just his job back then?
    Are attorneys now just doing their job when they claim that the government is not liable unless it intentionally discloses information received from warrantless wiretapping? Really?!
    They are doing a heck of a job then! Mr. Brownie would be proud.
    Is President Obama now just doing his job by hiring RIAA attorneys to run his DOJ? What does he think RIAA extortionists will do when they become federal prosecutors?
    I am sorry, but your argument is lousy.
    People in Bush cabinet were just doing their job too, you know. Torturing people, framing political adversaries...
    Bankers were too just doing their job defrauding the public.

    •  Unfortunately - many believe that is job descript (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lysias, soms, Conure

       job description of lawyers - that with a blizzard of semantic tricks and ledgerdemain of thesarus use - that the fundamental concepts and framework can get lost.

       The law has ever gone through these cycles - where the clever and cute are considered wise - and those who see the law for what it is - an imperfect but essential remedy for excess of all kinds - government and private - that if allowed to be buried beneath the blizzard of words would lead - oh, I don't know, to vast abuses in the world of finance, and banking and insurance and even government wiretapping in your bedroom -

      Course - that could never happen

  •  too reasonable an explanation by far. (11+ / 0-)

    that's out of vogue now, dontcha know?

    Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
    P.S. I am not a crackpot.
    -Abe Simpson

    by fromer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:49:17 AM PDT

  •  What's this? (13+ / 0-)

    Facts?  Facts, with full knowledge of the background situation, have no place in the face of righteous anger!

    We all must be righteously angry all the time!  Grrrr, arrghh, I am so angry!

    /snark

  •  I get your point but... (10+ / 0-)

    The claims they are making to get out of the lawsuit are beyond the pale, and not founded on sound legal principle.

    Specific pieces of evidence are certainly challengable on the basis of states secrets... there is ample precedent to that effect.  There is also, of course, precedent that in such cases the judge can privately review the evidence in question, and so forth.

    What the DoJ is arguing is that entire cases, not just pieces of evidence, are to be thrown out because some of the evidence would hit that condition.  That's not based on precedent, and it's an argument that borders on unconstitutionality (as we are granted explicitly the right of redress of grievances).

    Saying that they are doing their job in this case is like saying Yoo was doing his job by putting forth his legal opinions on torture.  Sure, he was trying to serve the interests of the government, which is his job.  But his job also entailed providing sound legal advice, not just advice that served the interests of the government.

    And in this case, the attorneys are meant to be providing sound legal arguments.  They are not.

    "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by burndtdan on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:54:45 AM PDT

  •  WTF! I guess can't blame Alberto Gonzales either? (7+ / 0-)

    Everybody in the world knows that you can pay a lawyer to say whatever you want them to say.
    George Bush used that excuse to justify disemboweling the Constitution. "Hey Fredo wrote a memo saying it was OK to waterboard".

    Do we fucking stand for anything here? Or we just teeing the suckers up so that Obama can be as "shocked" about this as he was about the AIG bonuses that his Treasury Department greenlighted?

    The assertion that a person who has been illegally spied on hasn't suffered any harm unless the information has actually been used against them is right out of Gonzales 101.

    Change my ass.

    PS I may be wrong but under the Patriot ACT, the FISA act and whatever other national security excuse they invent, there is no way to find out Wendy Wiretapper's name or what she was doing, so you have to sue the government.

    What did you do with the cash Joe?

    by roguetrader2000 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:55:20 AM PDT

  •  Could care less (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, IvanR, TomP, Calfacon
    I'm sure the doctors who participated in the torture sessions were just doing their jobs.
  •  Why aren't these decisions made by our (0+ / 0-)

    legislatures?

    After the Whole Foods law suit which made absolutely zero sense, I have zero faith in government lawyers.

    The government suing Whole Foods because they are some sort of monopoly was the definition of bizarre.

  •  Thanks for writing a diary that at least (16+ / 0-)

    attempts to explain things in a calm, rational way.

    The other diary on the rec list is just too melodramatic and nasty... seems some people cant discuss an issue without being nasty to others.

    "Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by Blue VA on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:02:34 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for a well reasoned response (14+ / 0-)

    I appreciate the information.  It helps me judge the situation better.  

    I am no lawyer, so when I read a diary that asserts that the Obama administration is behaving unlawfully- especially if it's from the same diarist who seems to be writing a stream of such diaries, it's very difficult for me to avoid reacting defensively.  

    I think we would all do well to realize that each issue has complications that we need to take into consideration before we allow ourselves to be thrown one way or the other.

    If you can't stand up to Rush Limbaugh, how can you stand up to The Axis Of EEEEEEEEvil?

    by otto on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:04:05 AM PDT

  •  Why can't we trust the courts more? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    on board 47, LeftyAce

    Here's the thing:  if what the DoJ lawyers are asserting is beyond the power of the executive branch, why aren't we more confident the courts will rule accordingly?

    Is it because of excessive judicial restraint, Republican hack appointments, or what?...

    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

    by Simplify on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:06:31 AM PDT

  •  As a former fellow local government lawyer (14+ / 0-)

    myself, I don't really see it the same way. Sure, when we're defending a slip and fall, it's just nonpolitical good lawyering involved in deciding what arguments to put forward. But when it's a high-profile issue involving fundamental governmental questions that have significant policy implications, "good" government lawyering takes on a completely different meaning and you would absolutely consider a variety of factors in considering what kinds of arguments to make. You would consider where the elected officials want the law to go generally, what policies they want to implement, what the effect of a win will be in other tangentially related contexts, what substantive outcomes they are looking to achieve. I think it's way too simplistic to say that a government lawyer, even in this extremely important and politically sensitive context, will just throw spaghetti on the wall just to see what might stick.

    •  Good point, but... (4+ / 0-)

      from the government litigator perspective, what would the alternative be in this case? Not try to dismiss the lawsuit? Merely answer and defend? Or try to settle?

      I think all those questions are legitimate, and indeed, more profound with the context you give.

      Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

      by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:20:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Government lawyers don't just blow off PR aspects (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rolandzebub, rhetoricus, Calfacon

        to their litigation, depending on how large profile the case is.  Sometimes the lawyers don't raise all defenses because they informed their client about the case, and client told them not to.

        It seems immensely naive to believe the DOJ lawyers just filed their latest motion without first talking to the boss about this, and said boss considering all of the political ramifications of raising technical legal defenses.

      •  Simplicity itself (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calfacon

        If the policy is no warrentless snooping, then you take an action to eliminate that.  This is the opposite.

        •  The DOJ Lawyer does? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          99 Percent Pure, Calfacon, soms

          I'm not sure you're answering the diarists question.

          He said

          What would the alternative be in this case? Not try to dismiss the lawsuit? Merely answer and defend? Or try to settle?

          Then you said

          If the policy is no warrentless snooping, then you take an action to eliminate that.

          The DoJ lawyer should "take an action" to eliminate warrantless wiretapping that Congress has already voted on and a prior administration has already acted on?

          Please explain.

          "Humor is a rubber sword -- it allows you to make a point without drawing blood." -- Mary Hirsch

          by malharden on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:30:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  William... (5+ / 0-)

        I know you don't mind me calling you that.

        Many of us appreciate your effort, but I have to honestly say I think you're wasting your time.  This place is lost.  

        Take care.

        President Obama, are aliens real?

        by David Kroning on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:34:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think they're legitimate questions (3+ / 0-)

        Coming up with a novel theory of sovereign immunity would not seem to be a reasonable alternative. For an interesting example, I'd take a look at what Calif. Att. Gen. Jerry Brown did vis-a-vis Prop. 8. He didn't just defend the measure, as the state's government lawyer. He also didn't side entirely with the plaintiff's. He submitted a legal brief that was fundamentally based on his politics and ethics, and then argued for it. I would think something more like that would be in order here.

      •  Turn over the information and punish the (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rolandzebub, Calfacon

        malfactors.  Prosecute the criminals who ordered and conducted felonious warrantless wiretaps. It's called justice . . . .aword you'd think they might recognize from those little business cards they carry saying:

        Department of Justice

        I hate to go there, but you know, the Nazis had lawyers who offered legal opinions that is was hunky dorey to fill those Jews and gypsies and homos and artists . . .

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:11:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Next to my favorite tea, some good sense, thx. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, sephius1, soms

    15,000 CA diabetic school kids in danger due to recent court decision.Shame on the ANA,CNA,CSNO. Info http://tiny.cc/uVmZF

    by foggycity on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:18:36 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for this informative diary. I was more (7+ / 0-)

    than a little outraged, surprised and disappointed by this motion, especially since I didn't actually understand why it was filed by the DoJ.  It sent a cold chill up my spine and Jonathan Turley didn't help matters, along with KO, last night.

    I feel the Obama administration is working night and day to reverse the dark, ugly, horrific Bush Years and it's making great progress, IMHO.  I keep looking forward to the day when the rule of law is restored to our country, which, for me, would be Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzales, Yoo, etc. all behind bars for committing war crimes and systematically undermining our Constitution.

    A gal can dream....

    Peace and LONG LIVE THE OBAMAS!

  •  If this was so innocuous, why the Friday night (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, CarolynC967, bigchin, TomP, Queenie68

    news dump?  If this was so innocuous why was the constitutional scholar, Turley, so upset about it?

  •  No. This is simply wrong. (8+ / 0-)

    You do not have to move to dismiss, that is discretionary.  You can, and should, settle if you done wrong.  I'm sure money is not the issue in this case--certainly not for a government that throws trillions at fraudsters.

    This is an attempted cover up, plain and simple.  I hope when Obama kisses his daughters goodnite, he keeps this in mind.  It is they who will deal with the "legacy assets" of a cover up.

    No stimulation without regulation.

    by Publius2008 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:27:02 AM PDT

  •  Absolute BS. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CarolynC967, IvanR, TomP, Calfacon, dditt, TimmyB

    These decisions seek to limit our freedoms. Rationalize them away however you wish. Obama has betrayed us for the Imperial Presidency and for expanded executive powers.

  •  For me it's about our own consistency (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rhetoricus, TomP, platypus60, Calfacon

    in what raises our dander. If we'd have slung mud at the Bush admin about it, we ought to sling mud at Obama even if it's a perfunctory mud flinging.

    But I see your point.

    It's a grift. They probably had grifter parents and grifter grandparents and someday they'll each spawn little grifter kids.

    by Muskegon Critic on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:32:52 AM PDT

  •  I love how people offer their "basic thoughts" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP

    in the form of a list "facts".

  •  Some sanity (5+ / 0-)

    Thank you!

    I'm on the sidelines right now, but wary.  You put it perfectly into perspective.

  •  wait a minute (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, RenMin, Calfacon, ruscle

    I am not an expert but isn't the whole concept of precedent mean that if the government wins on these grounds, then it creates a terrible legal authority going forward.

    My experience with the law is..you don't just throw everything including the kitchen sink into an argument. Yes, you need to be aggressive and try to get rid of the case but you have to use legal arguments you can stand behind because you may be stuck with them.  It seems to me policy has to be part of the thought process, particularly in a government case.

     

  •  So should I put away my pitchfork...? (5+ / 0-)

    Thanks for your take on this, it's very informative.

  •  Seriously - read this part of the Motion - (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bigchin, RenMin, Calfacon

     it reveals what nonsense this "doing of the job" is -

     at page 17, beginning  line 7, the Defendants - that is the U.S. government and the DOJ lawyers -  say,

      "Plaintiffs' final claim for damages is under FISA - [now catch this] "Defendant recognizes that the court has already found a waiver for FISA actions"  see lines 8-11.

     To be clear - all of the 36 pages of horse - errrr - sense is window dressing for a litigant who has made the wrongful, errant and misguided claim of sovereign immunity  before and lost.

     This is not just doing your job - this is admitting you have lost - but engaging in vague threats of coming calamity to try and get the court to rule against the clear statement of law previously decided.

     Now, I don't think all of this means some apocalyptic vision of the Obama presidency is revealed - the government is a big employer and I don't think this is some major policy pronouncement as much as some overly zealous intelligence girls covering their butt - but let us be clear that the lawyers acknowledge they have no legitimate position.

    •  Wait just one second...not playing it straight. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Boxer7

      Youre not telling the whole story.

      Here is the truth:

      1. Congress Has Not Waived Sovereign Immunity

      in FISA Section 1810.
      Plaintiffs’ final claim for damages against the United States is under FISA, where
      plaintiffs assert that 50 U.S.C.§ 1810 waives sovereign immunity (Count VI). Defendants
      recognizes that the Court found an "[i]mplicit" waiver of sovereign immunity under 50 U.S.C.
      § 1810 in Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, Inc. v. Bush, 564 F. Supp. 2d 1109, 1124-25 (N.D.
      Cal. 2008). But the Government respectfully disagrees with the Court’s conclusion and, for the
      record of this case, expressly reserve its position that Section 1810 contains no waiver of
      sovereign immunity to bring a damages claim against the United States.6

      The government is making the case that it disagrees with the "implicit" belief of the court that there is a waiver of soveriegn immunity in a very specific statute. Plaintiff is citing a previous case where the court found an implied immunity. Obviously the government wants this reviewed. But this is ONLY applicable to the plaintiff's claim under the 1810, which is NOT the whole of the claim.
      The government is arguing that there is no implied immunity here, and I think that principles of statutory construction and Congressional intent(you can pick one statute and dismiss all the others) is pretty good argument as to why Congress uses EXPLICIT waivers of immunity. But even a generous reading of the statute could not conclude that the "United States of America" is a person.

      Read:

      Sovereign immunity cannot be waived implicitly; waivers of sovereign immunity must
      instead be explicit and unequivocal. See Multi Denominational Ministry of Cannabis v.
      Gonzales, 474 F. Supp. 2d 1133, 1140 (N.D. Cal. 2007) (Walker, C.J.); see also Lane, 518 U.S.
      at 192; Sigman, 217 F.3d at 792. Section 1810 creates a "cause of action against any person"
      who violates the provisions of 50 U.S.C. § 1809.7 But Section 1810 does not mention suit
      against the United States, and the United States is not a "person" within the meaning of the
      statute. There is a "longstanding interpretive presumption that [the term] ‘person’ does not
      include the sovereign," Vermont Agency of Nat. Res. v. United States, 529 U.S. 765, 780 (2000)
      (collecting cases), and the presumption may be overcome "only upon some affirmative showing
      of statutory intent to the contrary."

      With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

      by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:24:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  as I read the Motion (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brooklynbadboy, RenMin

         the government has to acknowledge that this precise issue - the FISA language constitutes a waiver of sovereign immunity - has been before this same court and the court ruled that the government was wrong.  That was the ruling when the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation sued George W. Bush.  

          This makes perfect sense - the law authorizes civil penalties for violation of FISA - the only way to enforce those is through lawsuits - so the law does not enter the Alice in Wonderland world of saying that language which authorizes suits is not sufficiently explicit to overcome sovereign immunity.  It is saying the same thing to say you may sue me as to say I waive sovereign immunity - the government is asking for clever wordsmithing - arguing about "impllicit" versus "explicit"  - when the plain language authorizes penalties enforceable at law.

         But  my point was to make clear that everyone knew that the government had to acknowledge that it was in fact asking the court for new law.

        •  Well, I think the Government has a good argument (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Boxer7

          because you'll have to assume that the intent of the implied immunity waiver was meant to apply to the United States in addition to "persons." You have to make the argument that the United States is a person under 1810. Problem is, other parts of the U.S. Code explcitly make it clear that the United States is immune from lawsuits, and that it has expressly waived it with written statute, as it did in this one when referring to "persons." But a volume of case law also makes it clear that the United States is not a "person" but a "soveriegn." So this will need review.

          You have to begin there before you get to any discussion about penalties, before you get to  state secrets and discovery, before you get to any of the meat of the case.

          Now, as to the personal defendants, I think that should move forward, naturally. But as to the United States, I think the government is on a more solid footing that the 9th Circuit.

          With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

          by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:06:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  this looks a great example of what lawyers do (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            brooklynbadboy

            In fact - if you look at footnote 7 - there the government acknowledges that FISA defines a person to include "any officer or employee of the Federal government."  

              As I appreciate FISA - it allows civil penalties for those who violate FISA and for purposes of FISA defines a person to include a whole class that is not generally included when one discusses the umbrella of sovereign immunity.

             But - you may be right - that all of this comes down to a definition of person.  What is a court to do with a law that imposes penalties against someone who, by the very nature of the activity, in this case government spying on private citizens and has to reconcile that with a doctrine that excuses persons acting in their official capacity under sovereign immunity.  

             Well the only way any persons can violate FISA is acting in their official capacity - so by its very terms FISA would seem to extend to suits against persons heretofore immune under the doctrine of sovereign immunity.  That is how I take the ruling in the case against Bush.

             

            •  Exactly. This is actually the proper thing to (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Boxer7

              review within the context of illegal domestic spying: WHO is ultimately responsible?

              If the President feels there is an immediate national security threat and circumvents the court and orders immediate spying, is the President merely carrying out his duties as final arbiter of national defense? Up until the revisions in the new FISA law, the president didn't have the ability to come back to the FISA court later to get post-act judicial sanction of his actions.

              It's clear that a person is "an officer or employee" of the federal government, but that isn't that same thing as "United States" who is named as a defendant. By extension, people acting in official capacity of the United States would be acting under the immunity, provided the order came from the top.

              How will one know where the order came from? Testimony. That inevitably will lead to a public unveiling of sources and methods, if, as one would expect, the entire chain of command is put on the witness stand. Thats the whole state secrets part of it.

              Then, even if you get through all that, you gotta determine remedy. Thats another swamp of alligators.

              AND THAT IS WHY WE NEED A TRUTH COMMISSION rather than the blunt instrument of the Court.

              With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

              by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:33:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  4 individual defendants - one agency - and USA (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                brooklynbadboy, Calfacon

                 but, as I appreciate the Motion - it wants the whole case thrown out - even though - as we have just gone through in our colloquy there is no legal basis for such a Court Order.

                 Moreover - the intrusive domestic spying here does not to my mind raise the spectre of "sources and methods" being revealed - the government has already rather proudly and repeatedly bragged about how good it is at intercepts of various communications - this is a secret?

                 No, the issue these plaintiffs have - as best I can tell - is that there is no basis for listening in on their phone sex or family fights or calls to their analysts.  Seems pretty reasonable to me.

                •  I agree with this. But consider: (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Boxer7

                  No, the issue these plaintiffs have - as best I can tell - is that there is no basis for listening in on their phone sex or family fights or calls to their analysts.  Seems pretty reasonable to me.

                  The basis that they have for this is the data mining exercise that we all assume the government is engaged in. It seems reasonable to me as well that they should get a court order to zero in on me, either before or after the fact.

                  If a trillion bits of data flowing through a government computer yields one of my conversations saying the word "al qaeda" and they zero in on me to listen more because of the red flag, that red flag should be enough to prompt a FISA request. Problem is, that will cause a billion FISA requests every day. So, they have to listen more to rule me in or out...have they crossed the line yet? How long would they have to listen to me before they could properly rule me in or out? Wouldnt I be violated already?

                  Should FISA be able to grant blanket listening authority subject to quarterly review? Should our government be listening in the first place? Would a court ruling to stop examining date flows as a remedy be tremendously advantageous to Al Qaeda? Is that equitable? Some guys are a little uncomfortable so now we cant examine data flows?

                  Again, this is the kind of thing that will open up the National Security Agency to revealing a great deal of information on how it gathers data. So it makes sense that the government would want to get rid of this kind of thing altogether. Essentially, the court is going to have to curb intelligence gathering that even I admit is necessary in a digital age of 128-bit encryption and VoIP.

                  With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                  by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 01:20:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  appreciate your point - but, as I understand (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    brooklynbadboy

                     it - and look below to see where someone actually qoutes the law

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...  

                     is that the Plaintiffs must show wrongful conduct - in this case disclosure or use - so while the DoJ may conjure calamitous contingencies - a court can do this in an orderly way to discover if - on the merits - suit is worthwhile.

                     What this is important is that the DoJ is arguing for a huge expansion of government power over the individual

                    •  How would discovery be orderly? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Calfacon

                      If it is discovered that these plaintiffs were tapped because of randomn roving (data mining) There is going to have to be dates and times revealed. In order to mount a defense, the defendant is going have to reveal how he wont about what he or she considered lawful work.

                      This is thorny business and ultimately the Supreme Court is going to have to resolve the balance between national security and personal privacy in the digital age.

                      But the Government would rather this not come up for review at all.

                      With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

                      by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 01:52:04 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Fineman: Obama fears the intelligence community (8+ / 0-)

    Howard Fineman explains the government's attempt to halt this case, by saying,
    "This is what's going on here: Obama and his people in the White House do not want to antagonize the intelligence community.."
    Really?  We now live in a country where the President is afraid of our spy service?  Doesn't sound like a healthy, functioning democracy to me.  Neither do attempts to gloss over this cowardice with excuses,  because we don't like criticism aimed at some particular leader we may happen to like.

    One cannot deny the humanity of another without diminishing one's own. James Baldwin

    by CarolynC967 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:09:32 AM PDT

  •  Here are the basis of my greater doubts. (9+ / 0-)

    Thanks for the diary with its clear reasoning based on experience and knowledge.  I'm not fully convinced because of what has been said elsewhere by other knowledgeable people.

    First, in the torture rendition case involving Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen Dataplan, the judges specifically inquired whether the change in administration meant any change in the government position.  The way the story was reported, the reaction of the judges indicated some surprise that nothing had changed, so much so that they sat in silence a moment and repeated the question a bit incredulously.  I assume these judges are aware of how the law works.

    From Glenn Greenwald:

    One of the judges on the three-judge panel explicitly asked the DOJ lawyer, Doug Letter, whether the change in administrations had any bearing on the Government's position in this case.  Letter emphatically said it did not.  Instead, he told the court, the new administration -- the new DOJ -- had actively reviewed this case and vetted the Bush positions and decisively opted to embrace the same positions.

    The stance in a court case may or may not indicate a policy position, but the discussion around this and other cases implies that a lot of people think it does.  These people have taken efforts to clarify that the stances taken by the DOJ in ongoing cases are being vetted at the highest levels and are not just from some Bush hold-over arguing a case.  This does not fully counter the argument of the diarist, but it does make it plain that these cases are important enough that a lot of people are viewing them as statements of policy.

    Ken17762003 dealt with this issue in a diary about the Obama defense of unfettered wiretapping.  I also include his well-worded conclusion, because I think he sums up the situation quite nicely.

    And for those doubters that think this latest legal brief was a low-level decision made by some errant DOJ attorney left over from the Bush regime, Justice Department spokesman Charles Miller confirmed that the DOJ brief represented the views of Attorney General Eric Holder and the Obama administration. This was also true in the DOJ legal arguments presented in the rendition case on Monday where the government claimed state secrets needed to be preserved. Those arguments were also vetted at the highest level.

    This latest move will disappoint many Obama supporters who thought the new administration would reverse the fascist political trajectory begun by the Bush regime. But it is consistent with a pattern of upholding many of the policies instituted in the so-called "war of terror" by Obama.  Not only are the Bush wars to be continued, but so too are the "national security" programs that have resulted in the expansion of the police state under Bush.  The supremacy of the executive branch over the other branches of government will be defended by Obama and his cohorts.  

    National security, state secrets, executive privilege, and other "magic words" will be used to hide from the public the real workings of the government. Whatever Obama pretends to be does not obscure what he really is – the Commander-in-Chief of an empire dedicated to its preservation and expansion.

    There is a legitimate disagreement among us kossacks.  I see it not as one of how good or bad Obama is, but rather one of how critically we view the U.S. violation of its constitutional principles in the interests of empire.

    a rhetoric of peace and not a surrendering one. The kind of peace that stands up for human values, civil discourse, and basic decency.

    by geomoo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:13:18 AM PDT

  •  Dumb diary on several points: (9+ / 0-)
    1. If a government rationale in a motion to dismiss is accepted by the court, it becomes more than just official government policy, IT BECOMES THE LAW. It will be precedent. What Obama seeks here is a dangerous precedent, saying essentially, that, yes, you have a right, but we can violate it at will with no penalty and no recourse for the citizen.

    This is contrary to nearly 500 years of law, which as a basic tenet states that when you have a right, and it is violated, the law must provide recourse.

    1. You've got "official capacity" all wrong. Did you miss that at law school? If the government official is acting in his/her "official capacity" is precisely when the sovereign immunity, or limited immunity (say, prosecutorial discretion or resource allocation) kicks in. When the employee acts outside the scope of their employment, that's when they can be sued in their individual capacity.

    Since the executive branch is charged with enforcing the law and upholding the US Constitution, it is a fairly easy case (if not per se violation) that every time the government violates the Constitution they are sworn to uphold, they have acted outside their official capacity. In short, their official capacity is to uphold and protect the Constitution, not rip it to shreds.

    1. You've got the FISA law all wrong. As you say, you don't know anything about it, but pre-Patriot Act, a violation of FISA w/out a warrant was a criminal offense.
    1. In my opinion, this defense is so flimsy and without merit that it borders on a sanctionable offense (Rule 12). Again, the idea that the executive branch can violate a law which specifically provides for criminal sanctions without penaltly, and violate the US Constitution which it is supposed to be upholding without recourse to the citizens, is simply outrageous.

    There is no requirement for a defense attorney to offer defenses that have no merit, or that would do harm to the republic. This is plain and simple one of two things:

    1. A power grab by the executive branch. Which Obama ran and railed against on the campaign trail, but now that he's in power, he wants all the power he can get, with no accountability or penalty if he violates our rights. It's hypocritical. And for a Constitutional Law professor, it's abhorrent.

    This has happened over and over, with each new administration stretching the bounds of executive power more and more, until we basically have a monarchy in the executive branch: no accountability for crimes committed, don't even have to submit to subpoenas from Congress to answer questions from the Congress, unmentioned Article II powers for the President to disregard both law and treaty. Again, a Con Law professor should recognize this.

    We know we were basically living under a dictatorship under Bush, and now Obama seeks to expand on the executive powers (in this area) claimed by Bush. It is repugnant.

    1. A Political Move.

    Either a bow to the idol of bi-partisan ship at which Obama seems to worship above all others or a crumble to the intelligence community that is supposed to serve him, either way, its a show of weakness.

    Bipartisanship. Screw the GOP. Nothing but a huge upside in sending theses crooks up the river in my book. It would serve to better protect our rights in the future, serve as a deterrent, and there would be political upside in watching them go to jail. They aren't voting for anything he does anyway.

    Bow to intelligence community. Here is where I really think the problem lies, and Obama is just plain wrong and weak here. He described the CIA people as "good people" he doesn't want looking over their shoulder. I couldn't disagree more.

    If there is someone who blithely went about their business as they systematically violated American's rights via torture, kidnapping, or illegal wiretapping, but bear to go on doing their job if their crimes (or that of the agency) are revealed, then their priorities are so out of whack they can no longer be deemed "good people" and we need to start over.

    End of rant.

    Anyway, at the top of my lungs, screw Barack on this one.

    •  You're going overboard on a few points: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wmtriallawyer, Elise

      2.You've got "official capacity" all wrong. Did you miss that at law school? If the government official is acting in his/her "official capacity" is precisely when the sovereign immunity, or limited immunity (say, prosecutorial discretion or resource allocation) kicks in. When the employee acts outside the scope of their employment, that's when they can be sued in their individual capacity.

      The plaintiffs in this suit are only suing the persons listed in their official capacity

      Says so right here:

      NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY ("NSA");
      KEITH B. ALEXANDER, Director of the NSA;
      UNITED STATES OF AMERICA;
      BARACK OBAMA, President of the United
      States; UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF
      JUSTICE; ERIC HOLDER, Attorney General
      of the United States; DENNIS C. BLAIR,
      Director of National Intelligence.
      Government Defendants
      Sued in Their Official Capacity
      _____________________________________

      1.If a government rationale in a motion to dismiss is accepted by the court, it becomes more than just official government policy, IT BECOMES THE LAW. It will be precedent. What Obama seeks here is a dangerous precedent, saying essentially, that, yes, you have a right, but we can violate it at will with no penalty and no recourse for the citizen.

      The government is moving to dismiss because the plaintiffs have sued "The United States of America" and point out, accurately in my view, that Congress has not waived immunity claims which would apply by default. All governments have soveriegn immunity by default. In our country, it is either waived by Congress or the Supreme Court.

      I think the personal claims against the NSA Director and others will be allowed to proceed, but those against the "United States" will be dismissed.

      With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

      by brooklynbadboy on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:35:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, you're wrong (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calfacon

        A plaintiff wronged by a government official can sue him or her in his official capacity, without conceding that the actions complained of were legitimate.

        "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

        by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:04:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Dumb reply to the diary: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wmtriallawyer, jenesq

      This is contrary to nearly 500 years of law, which as a basic tenet states that when you have a right, and it is violated, the law must provide recourse.

      If so, then the Judge will deny their Motion and they will lose -- thus no precedent will be set. Your argument is circular, in other words. If it violates 500 years of precedent, then the argument has no merit and won't be precedential. If, on the other hand, there are good legal precedents to support the Obama position -- then its not really setting a new precedent.

      Since the executive branch is charged with enforcing the law and upholding the US Constitution, it is a fairly easy case (if not per se violation) that every time the government violates the Constitution they are sworn to uphold, they have acted outside their official capacity. In short, their official capacity is to uphold and protect the Constitution, not rip it to shreds.

      Sure. Unless a Court (You know. The third branch of Gvt) says they didn't violate the constitution. Then there's no violation, by definition. Which, of course, is the whole point of litigating the issue in the first place.

      There is no requirement for a defense attorney to offer defenses that have no merit, or that would do harm to the republic.

      A) Who says they don't have merit? If the Cirt agrees with them, then they bobviously had merot as a legal strategy.

      B) Whether some legal position does harm to the public is a politcal question, and not a legal question per se.

      This has happened over and over, with each new administration stretching the bounds of executive power more and more, until we basically have a monarchy in the executive branch: no accountability for crimes committed, don't even have to submit to subpoenas from Congress to answer questions from the Congress, unmentioned Article II powers for the President to disregard both law and treaty. Again, a Con Law professor should recognize this.

      We know we were basically living under a dictatorship under Bush, and now Obama seeks to expand on the executive powers (in this area) claimed by Bush. It is repugnant.

      What if the Court denies the motion? Then -- whoops! -- no monarchy or dictatorship. Taking the position they are taking in a Court of law means they are willing to be bound by the decision of the Courts in the end. This is the opposite of what you just whined about.

      •  This is totally illogical (3+ / 0-)

        I don't think it's Pericles' reply that was dumb -- your reply to him totally  misses the most important point:

        Since the executive branch is charged with enforcing the law and upholding the US Constitution, it is a fairly easy case (if not per se violation) that every time the government violates the Constitution they are sworn to uphold, they have acted outside their official capacity. In short, their official capacity is to uphold and protect the Constitution, not rip it to shreds.

        Sure. Unless a Court (You know. The third branch of Gvt) says they didn't violate the constitution. Then there's no violation, by definition. Which, of course, is the whole point of litigating the issue in the first place.

        The whole point is that the defenses raised by the Government attorneys in this case, if accepted by the Court, would preclude the Court reaching the merits; the plaintiffs would never have the opportunity of "litigating the issue in the first place."  That's why I and others who agree are so upset with this position.

        "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

        by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:09:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

          The arguments profferred by the Gvt in this case are, at bottom, constitutuionally based. So the Ciyrt has to resolve the constitutiuonal question in order to rule on the motion.

          •  No NO NOOOOO! (2+ / 0-)

            Upholding the sovereign immunity or state secrets defense means the court will dismiss the case before ever considering whether there was a wiretap program, whether it affected the plaintiffs, whether it was legal, and whether it was constitutional.  You might argue that the court is addressing A constitutional question if you so characterize the state secrets or sovereign immunity claim, but it most certainly would not be addressing the constitutional violations complained of by the plaintiffs.

            "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

            by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 01:15:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Therein lies the problem... (0+ / 0-)

              You might argue that the court is addressing A constitutional question if you so characterize the state secrets or sovereign immunity claim, but it most certainly would not be addressing the constitutional violations complained of by the plaintiffs.

              In order to reach the merits of the wiretapping case, the Court will have to chuck out the window over 60 years of Supreme Court precedent.

    •  wmtriallawyer can defend himself, but (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, tiredntexas, gobears2000

      I have to say, calling his diary dumb was dumb.  The position taken may be repugnant from a policy point of view, but it doesn't violate Rule 11 (not Rule 12, btw), and therefore the lawyers have a duty to raise it.

      In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. - H.L. Mencken

      by Simian on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:29:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's called Pleading in the Alternative (11+ / 0-)

    Someone files a complaint alleging you did a bad deed that injured them. You file an answer that says:

    1. I didn't do it.
    1. You can't prove I did it.
    1. The event never happened
    1. Somebody else did it
    1. It was an act of God and no one is responsible
    1. You weren't hurt
    1. It was all your fault
    1. The law should be changed
    1. I should get my attorney's fees

    Nothing is really decided until the Court's judgment becomes final (as in all appeals have been taken and there is nothing else to decide).

    Of course I have a retirement plan. It's just subject to revision as I go along. Currently, I plan to die working.

    by gilacliff on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:17:05 AM PDT

  •  SOP in defense of bulls##t is bulls##t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, An Affirming Flame, Calfacon

    This is just the "I was following orders" defense.  Every government official will say this if they can when caught doing something illegal or immoral.

  •  I'll give any one $500 (5+ / 0-)

    who can find a recommended Kos diary during the Bush years defending Alberto Gonzales, John Yoo and other Justice Department lawyers on the ground that they were just doing their job.

    •  I'd make that an "untroll-rated diary" (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Larry Bailey, greenskeeper, Calfacon

      during the Bush years defending Alberto Gonzales, John Yoo and other Justice Department lawyers on the ground that they were just doing their job.

      I don't want you losing your $500.00.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:26:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The difference: Gonzalez was actively supporting (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vernonbc, soms, gobears2000

      the legality of warrantless wiretapping, torture, and other acts.  

      In this case, the DOJ is merely addressing whether the government is subject to a civil suit for monetary damages--IOW, whether that is legally appropriate redress.  It does not in any way condone the underlying action.

      I know it seems like a semantic difference, but it's not.  It is a huge difference.

      •  You're absolutely wrong (6+ / 0-)

        The Obama administration is arguing that the question of warrantless eavesdropping is too secret to allow any court to rule on its legality, exactly what the Bush DOJ argued for years that caused so many liberals to become so angry.

        Also, this is a brand new invention by the Obama administration.  It's not just a general immunity claim but one that says that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits against the government for illegal spying except when there's willful disclosure.  So Obama is arguing that they are free to listen in on calls even if they break the law, just as long as they don't wilfully disclose it.

        I love how the ACLU, EFF, Keith Olbermman, Jonathan Turley, etc. were all heroes who were NEVER criticized on Kos during the Bush years.

        Now, suddenly, the make EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENTS but apply them to Obama, and now they're know-nothing hysterical losers who can't be trusted.

        Leader worship, anyone?

  •  Thank you... (15+ / 0-)

    ...for taking the time to write this.  I'm a government lawyer who does defensive litigation, and I read the motion papers yesterday.  It's a straightforward motion to dismiss and I haven't understood all the outrage.  It's especially irksome coming from Keith Olbermann who, last time I checked, was not a lawyer.  Actually, even many lawyers won't "get it" if they aren't defensive government litigators with a grasp of sovereign immunity and other jurisdictional jurisprudence.    

  •  I guess there really are two sides to every (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, soms

    argument...just like the arguments around climate change and evolution. I guess I'll just sit back and wait for the dust to clear on those issues too. Who would have known that Jonathan Turley is such a bafoon.

  •  For those who support this lawsuit--a ?? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, Elise, soms, gobears2000

    I truly want to know why you think a civil suit for monetary damages will provide justice for the government's wrongdoing in engaging in warrantless wiretapping.

    Who, precisely, is going to be punished by a monetary award in favor of the plaintiffs?  YOU.  Me.  Us.  The taxpayers.  It would be our money paying out those damages.

    Shouldn't you consider advocating some other means of redress/punishment that would not involve taking money out of our own pockets?

    •  It will allow the plaintiffs to get their hands (4+ / 0-)

      on the documents demonstrating what has gone on under cover of darkness.

      The lead plaintiff is the Electronic Freedom Foundation, is it not?  Do you really think they're looking for a goddam payday here . . . or is their point to protect all of our rights to be free from illegal government surveillance?

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:49:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here's where the argument fails, though. (0+ / 0-)

        Discovery in a civil case can be circumvented for all kinds of reasons (privilege and so forth).  IF the plaintiffs were permitted discovery on warrantless wiretapping activities (and I'm highly dubious they would get it), the discovery would almost certainly not be permitted to be made public.

        If information is what people really want here, a civil lawsuit for monetary damages is probably the lamest means for getting it.

        •  It's uh called a leak. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Calfacon

          Worked real good for that Ellsburg fellow. And you think maybe a FOIA request would have done the trick?

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:20:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wouldn't want to be the one to leak that (0+ / 0-)

            kind of stuff!  But the chance that wide-ranging discovery would be allowed is minimal, and even if it were, depending on a "leak" for the public to hear about it is pretty weak.

    •  IANAL, but FISA provides for civil penalties, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, truong son traveler, Boxer7

      $10K per violation if I remember correctly.  That's a trivial sum, but it applies both to the individual government actors and to the corporations which cooperated.  While the law was written expressly to prevent this type of situation, it doesn't prescribe very well how the liability is distributed.

      I'm not sure what your point is.  Our elected government clearly violated FISA, and the 4th amendment rights of the plaintiffs.  Are you suggesting that because it might cost each taxpayer a tiny fraction of a cent that the lawsuit shouldn't be pursued, the law should not be enforced, or that FISA should be modified ex post facto to prevent any liability?

      Without a penalty, what's to prevent future violations?

      Dubya's legacy: 25 million really pissed Iraqis...50 million shoes

      by skrekk on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:50:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  $10k per violation is a hell of a lot of money. (0+ / 0-)

        The actual number is many, many multiples of that, plus fees and expenses.  

        I am not suggesting that the law not be enforced.  If the court disagrees with the immunity argument, the lawsuit will go forward.  

        What I disagree with (aside from the condemnation of the DOJ for merely making arguments in a motion to dismiss) is the idea that this suit is the best means of redress for the wrongdoing--whether it will really serve justice.  $$ is not the only penalty, and may not be the best penalty.

        •  If you were able to count the total number of (2+ / 0-)

          violations incurred by a mass sweep program, then yes it would be a lot of money.  That's not what we're talking about in these cases: just a few calls that the plaintiff can prove were monitored, due to the DoJ mistakenly giving the defense a detailed list of which calls were monitored.

          The fact that $10K per violation didn't prevent Bush from doing what he did indicates the penalties should be far higher, with a mandatory lengthy prison term (it is a felony, after all).

          Dubya's legacy: 25 million really pissed Iraqis...50 million shoes

          by skrekk on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:02:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  pretty explicit language - I would say (3+ / 0-)

         which eviscerates the government's arguments

          The legislature is not presumed to pass a law providing a civil penalty and then not allow suits against the very wrongdoers - in this case by virtue of some incantationn of sovereign immunity or state secrets.

         

    •  When Canada decided that (6+ / 0-)

      they played a big role in helping the U.S. to kidnap Maher Arar and deliver him for torture to Syria, they paid him $3 + million.  Why?  Because they did him an injustice and wanted to try to make him whole.

      How does a victim of the U.S. government get made whole other than through a monetary award?

  •  As a lawyer, you haven't dissapointted me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RenMin

    It is always the same way with you lawyer folks.  "I was just doing my job:"

    Fact #4: Asserting a defense in a lawsuit does not in any way equate official government policy............  And believe me,

    DOJ is going to continue argue immunities, because that's their job. Not only in this lawsuit but in all future lawsuits.  It is their job not to create policy, but to defend their client.

    ......  They are not simply going to roll over and say, "OK, you win, we'll pay you a truckload of money." Not going to happen.  And certainly not going to happen at this early stage of the game.

    Okay, I'll buy that.  Most of the rest of your defense is your standard immunity chit chat stuff.  Your first point is that it is about "money" and you somehow tar the litigant with that implication.  Then there is no real "money paragraph" as you have some doubts too.

    My own opinion is that Barack Obama is the client for Mr. Holder and as such he has the last say doesn't he?  Lawyers always like to say, "in the final analysis, the client is the boss!"  

    •  As a DOJ attorney, I can tell you, you are wrong. (12+ / 0-)

      The President is not the client for the Department of Justice.  You may have come under that impression under the last Administration when, some argue, the Department was a political arm of the White House.  So that misperception is understandable.

      In truth, our client is the United States (and, in some cases, namely administrative cases, the administrative agencies).  The White House has its own counsel (the White House Counsel's Office, headed by Greg Craig).  

      Our client is the people, and in pursuing the interests of the people we represent the United States best when we take positions based on the law.  Not the law the way it should have been passed by the legislative, and not the law as maybe we think the executive should have interpreted it, and not the law maybe the way it would look if progressives had written it, or as maybe conservatives should have written it, but the law as it is, and as it has been interpreted by the Courts.  

      Asserting a privilege is using an available tool in the box.  It would be malpractice and unethical for us not to use those tools (State Secrets privilege, etc.) as they are permitted.  

      We are a nation of laws, not of men.  The people of the United States, embodied in the law, is who we serve.  Not the President.    

      Change takes time. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Remember that.

      by LarsThorwald on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:59:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sorry, but I can't help myself: (0+ / 0-)

        "And what's your name sir?"
        "Greg."
        "...Okeydoke. And your last name?"
        "Craig."
        "Craig? Oh, my mistake, I thought you said Greg..."
        "Oh, no no, I did... it's... Craig."
        "...Greg?"
        "Yeah. Craig."
        "Craig...Greg?"
        "Yeah, exactly. Greg. Craig."
        "-- Greg. Craig? ...Wait. Do you mean Greg-comma Craig, like Craig Greg, or just Greg Craig? Like you said it?"
        "I... I'm Greg Craig."
        "...Um...OK..."
        "DOJ."

  •  Challenge: Are you saying to perfect this lawsui (5+ / 0-)

    the EFF etc., must sue individual government employees (i.e. Addington, Cheney) as individuals (as if they aren't already sued as individuals in this lawsuit)?  

    What happened to the offer by Obama and the Senate promise that claims against the "government" would still be on the table after the FISA vote to decimate our 4th amendment rights among a few.

    Second Challenge:  Why in the world if this is a pro-forma tactical filing?  

    Why would the Obama DOJ attorneys broaden a (Bush DOJ) illegal argument beyond legal fiction into the realm of totalitarianism IF THE ONLY PURPOSE IS TO KNOCK OUT A FEW CLAIMS VIA A MSJ APPROACH?

    So, the government nor individuals in their official capacity can ever be held to answer for charges that they have exceeded their legal authority, due to the never-ending "state secret defense" and the President's power trumps everyone - EFFECTIVELY CUTTING OFF ANY HOPE (I REPEAT HOPE) OF DISCOVERY PROCEEDINGS?

    Third Challenge:  How in the world would we ever know if any government official EVER exceeded official duties or breached their fiduciary duty as a government official (leaving them open to civil claims) if the lawsuit alleging these charges is never REALLY answered but is GAMED just like you say, litigators do which is really LEGAL CHESS.

    Seriously, after practicing for 30 years I smell a lot of after the fact word-smithing to salvage what is an outrageous first move of the Obama DOJ out of the chute.

    You have got to be kidding me.

  •  If "sovereign immunity" is so standard (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    willibro, RenMin, Calfacon

    Why did the Bush DoJ not attempt that argument in their initial filings??

    Member, The Angry Left.

    by nosleep4u on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:55:09 AM PDT

  •  A move to get judicial repudiation--I hope (0+ / 0-)

    If Obama's administration "merely" rejects BushCo doctrine, it is possible for the next BushCo clone in the White House to just do it again. We need judicial tests and repudiation to limit recurrence...

    The BushCo __ (fill in some nasty phrase) had a policy of doing clearly wrong things and then dragging out the issue as long as possible, until the courts finally forced them to stop. IF the Obama team forces an evil BushCo doctrine to face a direct judicial hearing, we probably (I hope) will have the courts drive a stake into the evil position. Then next time some Bush-Clone takes the White House, he/she/it will face explicit judicial precedent preventing them from trying that ___ (fill in some nasty phrase) again. That's my HOPE.

  •  I have to agree (8+ / 0-)

    I thought the same thing.

    The lawsuit, if the plaintiffs win, is dangerous precedent which flies in the face of established law ("sovereign immunity").

    Therefore the defendants argue that the only basis for an actual suit would be the deliberate release of private information.

    But it does NOT mean they are defending or condoning the underlying activities.  It just means they don't want the case to set precedent that people can start suing the government willy-nilly for other stuff.

    They are not saying "we should be able to wiretap whenever we want!!!"  That's a CRIME and can still be punished as a crime.

    They are saying people can't bring a CIVIL action for it, unless they show actual harm by the use of the information that is gathered ("deliberate release of the information")

    The same people presenting the argument in this brief could still, without contradiction, criminally prosecute the people who put this policy into place.

    "Balance" does not mean giving the same weight to a lie as you do to the truth.

    by delphine on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:55:58 AM PDT

    •  You Wouldn't Say This if it Were Bush (5+ / 0-)
      1.  Waiver of sovereign immunity happens all the time.  The Republic hasn't ended.
      1.  How can it be punished as a crime when the same DOJ refuses to investigate these actions?
      1.  The actual harm occurs automatically as a result of the violation of Constitutional rights.  That's why FISA has a statutory damages provision, without the need to show monetary loss.

      "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

      by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:49:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A civil suit seems to be the only means left to (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RenMin, Calfacon

      us of finding out precisely what happened, with respect to the warrantless spying, the torture, and no doubt a good deal besides.  Pity there's probably no way of holding a trial and then awarding the plaintiffs costs plus damages of one dollar.

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:57:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How do you spell D-I-S-C-R-E-T-I-O-N? n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Calfacon

    "History is a tragedy, not a melodrama." - I.F.Stone

    by bigchin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 10:57:49 AM PDT

  •  Thank You! Thank You! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, grapes, Queenie68, BoxNDox

    Your adult analysis an oasis of reason in a desert of frenzy and despair.  It is much appreciated.

    And like the drowning man, who, in despair, Doth clutch the frail and weakly straw --Thomas Horatius Delpho

    by terry2wa on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:02:27 AM PDT

  •  Horseshit (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bigchin

    Let's assume that you're right, and that DOJ "doing its job" simply means pursuing every possible avenue of defence from results adverse to a government agency or employee, despite what justice and the constitution demand.

    If that's true, WHY THEN did Holder drop charges against Ted Stevens? After all, by so doing, he's utterly wasted millions of dollars in DOJ time/costs, exposed DOJ employees to suit and even criminal charges of their own, and let an obvious criminal go. He's basically created an adverse result that was never at risk at the outset.

    Go ahead. Rationalize that brilliant legal decision for us, Mr. Darrow.

  •  i am sooooo glad you are here! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patricia Bruner, Escamillo

    thank you for the voice of reason!  knee jerk reactions are never productive - especially in a legal situation.

    you are one of our best assets on this site - i hope you NEVER go away!

    loved the analysis (and the bolding, for those who are reluctant to appreciate the "law" and its purpose!)

    thanks, again, for being the voice of reason!  love ya, guy!

  •  More Than Just "Doing Their Job" (10+ / 0-)

    If sovereign immunity applies, and there appears to be a very strong argument that it does, then the DOJ has a constitutional obligation to assert it.  Only Congress has the power to waive sovereign immunity.  So for all of the people who think that Obama should just be a nice guy and ignore sovereign immunity and let the plaintiffs sue the government, that would fly in the face of the "strict constructionist" view of Presidential power that most progressives at least purport to support.  The DOJ simply doesn't have the constitutional power to ignore sovereign immunity.  This principle transcends any particular case.  Suppose, hypothetically, some right-to-life organization brought a lawsuit against the government on behalf of fetuses threatened by Roe v. Wade.  Sovereign immunity would clearly bar such a lawsuit.  But suppose some Bush DOJ (or some future right-wing administration) decided not to assert sovereign immunity, because they are in sympathy with the plaintiffs.  It would be outrageous.  As Bush prophetically said, being a dictator is easy - the rule of law is hard.

    •  Y'know... (6+ / 0-)

      I almost titled the diary "Defending the Rule of Law", and nearly wanted to write on that position alone...but for the more utter confusion and sh*tstorm of a reaction it would cause.

      Thanks for pointing that out.

      Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

      by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:12:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As I understand it, FISA waived sovereign . . . (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lysias, CTPatriot, Calfacon, polar bear

      immunity for violations of FISA.

      Obama's DOJ is relying on some trumped-up argument using the Patriot Act -- which as a Senator Obama voted against because he believed it was unconstitutional -- to claim sovereign immunity, an argument even John Yoo never had the gall to propose.

      It is far from a "duty" of government lawyers to raise specious defenses that violate the Constitution.

      Sorry guys -- I know you want to believe that Obama is all good and everything he does is right.  I'd like to believe that too.  I'm very disappointed in his positions so far on civil liberties, although supporting almost everything else he's done.  But just cause it's Obama rather than Bush, that doesn't mean it's OK to make vastly inflated claims of executive power.

      "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

      by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:36:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If the fetuses were threatened by an illegal (0+ / 0-)

      (not to mention unconsitutional) government action, and if the sovereign immunity were waived by the statute that made that action illegal, then no, it would not be right.  In addition, this DOJ is using the awful Patriot Act to further justify its position.

  •  another thought here... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wmtriallawyer, rweba

    why is it okay to excoriate norm coleman for HIS "use" of the law to fight his case but it is not okay for government lawyers to "use" the law to define it?

    hasn't minnesota's senatorial race ground to a total halt because of legal technicalities (like invalid ballots that are "supposed" to be for norm)?

    in this case, the legality of fisa is a separate issue from the ability to sue the entire "government" as an entity for wrongdoing.  it would appear to be more appropriate, imho, to sue the damned idiots in congress who voted this mess... oh, wait, that won't work either.

    then, the proper "suit" would be by casting ballots in opposition to those who passed the laws, interpreted them, wrote executive orders.... oh, wait - we did that already.

    but, to sue the "government" would grind society to a halt in a heartbeat if one case goes through as it opens up the precedent for any and all to stop government dead in its tracks... much like the republicans are trying to do now by being the party of no.

    can you imagine those fools if the right to sue the "government" were to be upheld?  gingrich, bonehead, shelby, etc., would be filing motions against the president on a daily an hourly every second of the day! (including sundays...)

  •  Our system is flawed (3+ / 0-)

    The Department of Justice defends government officials, even when they violate the Constitution, but does not defend government officials who blow the whistle on violations of the Constitution and other laws.  It seems that a Department of Justice, to lay fair claim to the name, should be taking the position that supports the Constitutiion.  Indeed, all government employees, including DOJ employees take an oath to uphold the Constitution. Thus, the common practice of defending government officials, no matter what, is at odds with their oaths.

  •  As Ex-DOJ Attorney, I Beg to Disagree (15+ / 0-)

    We were told from day 1 on the job that, contrary to private attorneys, our job was not to win cases but to do justice.

    That's why Holder recently dropped charges against Stevens after already obtaining a conviction.

    That's why the Federal Government routinely confesses error on appeal after winning in the trial court, but on a basis contrary to Government policy.

    And that's what the DOJ lawyers in this case should have done, if Obama really believes that illegal spying against US citizens occurred.  They shouldn't contest the case.

    Maybe the facts aren't so black and white.  Maybe it's not clear if illegal spying occurred.  In that case, they could contest the case on the merits, but not raise Bush-style radical unitary executive defenses as a procedural roadblock, defenses that even go beyond any position the Bush DOJ was willing to argue.

    I'm sorry; there's no excuse for this, and no way to square it with Obama's statements during the campaign, no matter what excuses his apologists might attempt.  

    "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

    by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:29:30 AM PDT

  •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wmtriallawyer, abarrenfuture

    I think there has been entirely to much heat and not nearly enough light shed on this matter.

    Glenn Greenwald is a treasure. But he is, above all else, a lawyer, and like the government lawyers, he has a habit of highlighting the facts that fit his preconceived beliefs and dismissing those that do not. His opinion pieces read like legal briefs.

    You are right that Obama really needs to make a clearer policy statement on these issues and I think where his critics fall down is in not making the request for such a statement the center piece of their argument. Instead, people are falling back to a "shame on him" approach that became standard with BushCo because BushCo had the default position of never explaining themselves.

    Has Greenwald ever actually tried to engage the Obama administration on precisely what their position on these issues are?

    •  No, that's not the problem (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      not politickley a stoot, RenMin

      Obama has made many unequivocal public statements reassuring us about his viewpoint on these issues. He has told us that he has respect for the rule of law and that it must be restored, that the US does not torture, that government regulation of public access to information must err on the side of openness, that he is going to close Guantanamo, that he would vote against the FISA amendments, and that he would work in the Senate to remove or otherwise render inapplicable the retrocative immunity provisions in the FISA amendments.

      The problem is not the lack of a "clearer policy statement". The problem is the near-complete failure so far of much of the Obama administration -- including and especially the DOJ -- to act on any of those clear policy statements when, as happened here, they had an actual opportunity to do so. Which, naturally, leads many people -- including many formerly wholehearted Obama supporters, like me -- to conclude that maybe we are being lied to.

      On top of that, we have fellow Kossacks who seem to think the rest of us have no business even raising this kind of criticism, simply "because it's Obama", or "because it's too early", or "because it's their job not to act on that". Sorry, no sale.

      Roosevelt said: "I agree, it's a good idea, now make me do it." Obviously, we're going to have to make him do it.

      •  So what would you like Obama to do? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KayCeSF, freakofsociety

        Order the DOJ to ignore the due process and the law, as it currently exists, imperfect though it may be?

        That would set a dangerous, dangerous precedent.

        How can you be absolutely sure the whole point of this exercise isn't to find out where all the loopholes are, in order to close them once and for all?

        May your anger be righteous.

        by bottlerocketheart on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 01:43:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sure you that's your idea of a Killer Komment (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bottlerocketheart

          Since if I don't respond with a suggestion, I'm an idle complainer with nothing useful to contribute, but if I do, the suggestion will be something inevitably to be shot down as the usual ignorant crap you get from non-professionals.

          OK, I'll bite: Settle with plaintiff. Offer the information they seek about the extent of the spying-on-citizens program in exchange for giving up monetary damages. The information is what EFF and ACLU are really seeking, anyway.

          Here's the last thing on Earth Obama should do: Keep this going forever on the strength of narrow procedural bullshit and insane extensions of the very Bush-claimed immunities that have already damaged the republic, and will continue to do so until this bullshit is stopped.

          •  I was genuinely curious. (0+ / 0-)

            And I'm grateful you answered. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

            I think what you suggest is perfectly reasonable. It might very well unleash a shitstorm, but honestly I don't see anything they do - or don't do - that won't.

            May your anger be righteous.

            by bottlerocketheart on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 06:19:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The problem (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wmtriallawyer, willibro, evora

        I would never tell anyone not to raise a criticism if they have one. Just don't expect that the criticism will take hold just because it seems obvious, on the surface, that something stinks.

        The point of the OP (and others who have concurred) is that it is not as simple a matter as you and others suggest for Obama to simply order the DOJ to act differently than they have. Obama is not a revolutionary. He doesn't believe in radical changes to the system when smaller changes can bring about more immediate, less disruptive results. In that sense, he is a classic conservative (in the Burkean sense).

        That does NOT mean he doesn't agree with those, like Glenn Greenwald, who argue that the gutting of our justice system by the Bushies was a bad thing. I get the sense that he is as offended as Glenn by what went on in the last eight years. But Obama has a much tougher job than Glenn. He has to actually correct those mistakes while preserving the public order at the same time. That will be difficult to do at best. It might even be more so if he were to take the more wholesale approach advocated by his critics (the same is true, btw, with his critics of his handling of the financial crisis).

        What bothers me is the apparent desire of some to latch onto every public incident as proof that Obama is going to betray us. It's almost as if liberals and progressives have gotten so used to betrayal that they presume it will happen eventually. Like a dog that has been beaten one to many time, they flinch every time someone raises their arms around them. Even if they are doing so only to pet them.

        Roosevelt said: "I agree, it's a good idea, now make me do it." Obviously, we're going to have to make him do it.

        This has always been the case in politics. Obama is no exception. The fact that we have to make him do some of these things does not mean he doesn't want to do them. It just means he needs to be brought to a place where he will feel obligated and more comfortable doing so. His critics might better spend them time devising strategies for doing just that.

        •  There is a bigger problem (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Calfacon

          Thank you, first of all, for doing the courtesy of explaining your position without treating mine -- and me personally -- with utter contempt. That alone has earned you more credibility than OP and 99% of his concurring commenters.

          I fully understand the arguments from moderation and practical politics that you take the time to repeat here. I agree that they are all compelling, and that they are true as far as they go.

          But there is also abundant, and just as compelling, evidence that the US Constitution and the rule of law have both been a dead letter in this country for the best part of a decade. In the face of that evidence, asking Obama to act boldly to restore what we have lost is not asking him to be a revolutionary. It is asking him to be a conservative, in what I consider the oldest and best sense of that word

  •  calming influence (3+ / 0-)

    thanks for this; your words are such a tonic.  As a lawyer, I was amazed at how, quckly people jumped to the conclusion that this stupid Motion to Dismiss signaled a sinister, Bush-ward policy shift by the Obama Administration.  Sheesh!  

    Some junior lawyer fresh out of law school was doing his or her job, people!!!!  We have not turned into an oppresive police State with no accountability simply because the briefs use the phrase "Sovereign Immunity" - these are basic terms of art in litigation against the government.  I would say it would be tatamount to malpractice if a lawyer didn't mount those basic defenses when representing the government.

  •  18 u.s.c. 2712--thanks to another comment (4+ / 0-)

    and Volokh:

    Any person who is aggrieved by any willful violation of this chapter [the Stored Communications Act -- Ed.] or of chapter 119 of this title [the Wiretap Act -- Ed.] or of sections 106(a), 305(a), or 405(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) may commence an action in United States District Court against the United States to recover money damages.

    volokh

  •  Thanks for attempting to insert a dose of reality (15+ / 0-)
    As I anticipated, many of the comments don't like it, but I guess the fact that your diary is #1 on the recommended list says SOMETHING, anyway.

    I spent most of my 15 years at DOJ defending suits brought against the federal government under the Federal Tort Claims Act, and much of that litigation dealt with the scope of the federal government's waiver of sovereign immunity.  I also spent somewhat more than a year with the State of Maryland, defending cases brought under the Maryland Tort Claims Act, and much of that was also over the scope of the waiver of sovereign immunity.

    I've been stunned to see comments asserting that the sovereign immunity defense is somehow something that the Obama administration just invented, or that it somehow indicates an effort to turn us into some kind of a dictatorship or something.  As you note, other than in the most routine case involving a motor vehicle crash, medical malpractice or premises liability in which there is no question but that the plaintiff has properly complied with the procedural requirements of any applicable waiver of sovereign immunity, these cases NORMALLY involve questions about the scope of any arguably applicable waiver of sovereign immunity.

    Sometimes, in vigorously representing my public client, I took positions on which part of me actually HOPED that I would lose -- such as the seriously injured plaintiff who filed an administrative claim 1 day beyond the 180 days required in the statute, apparently because her normally very good lawyer assumed that 180 days was the same as 6 months.  (It's not; it's almost always a couple of days LESS than six months.)  It would have been a lot easier for everybody if the state legislature had just provided for the claim to be filed within six months, but it didn't, and it was my job to vigorously defend my client.

    If anybody thinks this result is unfair, they should perhaps read Dalehite v. United States, 346 U.S. 15 (1953), in which the Supreme Court held that the United States had not waived sovereign immunity for an accident in which a ship carrying ammonium nitrate fertilzer blew up and took a major part of Texas City, TX with it.  That one involved a provision of the Federal Tort Claims Act providing that the waiver of sovereign immunity did not apply to "[a]ny claim based ... the exercise or performance or the failure to exercise or perform a discretionary function or duty on the part of a federal agency or an employee of the Government, whether or not the discretion involved be abused."

    I don't claim any expertise on FISA and the scope of any waivers of sovereign immunity thereunder, but the motion to dismiss read much like hundreds, if not thousands, of them that I wrote or read over the course of my career.  I would frankly have been astounded if a sovereign immunity defense HADN'T been raised in a case of this type.  Whether it will be successful or not will be for the courts to determine.

    •  Thanks. You summed up my diary (6+ / 0-)

      in a nutshell.

      Again, I've dealt with this in MD as well, under the Local Government Tort Claims Act, but as a matter of practice...you assert the immunity.  Unless you are 100% certain you are going to settle the case from the outset.

      And from what I read in the memo...I didn't see anything different from, like you say, the hundreds of similar Motions to Dismiss I've read and written in the past.

      Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

      by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:11:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? Why? (3+ / 0-)

        Why is DOJ not already "100% certain you are going to settle the case from the outset"? Your update says we are at the beginning of this case. Why isn't it over already? What, precisely, do the people of the United States have to gain from the DOJ defending Bush-era spying on the entire population of the US?

        •  Does the Plaintiff WANT to settle? (4+ / 0-)

          My understanding is the Plaintiff doesn't want to settle the case.  So in my judgement, that would mean that this case is not 100% ready to settle.

          And really, arguing that the entire population of the United States was spied upon is a hyperbole argument that doesn't help your argument.  Unless, of course, I have to worry that my nieces and nephews under the age of 5 are under NSA watch.

          Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

          by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:34:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, please (0+ / 0-)

            Plaintiff is always interested in settling if the settlement includes exactly what he asked for. And what he is asking for in this instance is not precisely a payday, as you misleadingly argue.

            As for your other point: Never met a lawyer yet who couldn't re-interpret any conceivable ambiguity in a sentence to his own advantage. Even the really shitty ones can do it. The better ones usually have the guts to balk at obviously dishonest re-interpretations, though. We're not in court, sonny. If you honestly think my sentence about spying on 100% of the population meant 5-year-olds, you're quite a dope. If you don't honestly think that, you've just demonstrated what a garden-variety ambulance chaser you are.

      •  Greenwald has a link to this diary from Salon (4+ / 0-)

        Your diary now has a link from Greenwald's column/blog at Salon now, here (see the update). You and I are apparently "creepy Obama worshipers." Note that he makes no attempt to address the substance of your criticism.

        It seems like Greenwald, as an attorney, should understand what you're saying about the significance (or lack thereof) of this motion. But he's so invested in his narrative as a new media star that he's unwilling to acknowledge even a simple legal reality. From where I sit, what he is doing right now with this is a distortion.

        We need to stay a reality-based community. Glenn isn't helping do that when he twists the meaning of motions like this to fit his narrative.

    •  I was also a DOJ atty. (9+ / 0-)

      who defended these types of cases in the Bivens section.  We would not have granted representation in the first place if the individuals were not determined to have been acting in their official capacity.

      We could raise any valid defense (including blowing the statute of limitations by 1 day).  But we would not raise a dubious or non-colorable defense, which I suggest the "state secrets privilege" is.

      The Canary in the Coalmine is available for purchase at patriotictruthteller.net

      by Jesselyn Radack on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:16:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do you suggest that's true of the "state ... (3+ / 0-)

        secrets privilege" in general, because it's far from a novel defense in cases involving classified information?  It goes back in its present form to United States v. Reynolds, 345 U.S. 1 (1953).

        Whether it is properly applicable in this case depends upon facts that neither one of us knows, since they would be classified, but that hardly seems to me to make it a "non-colorable" defense.  I can imagine sets of facts under which it wouldn't apply, and some under which it would apply, and I simply don't know the facts well enough to know which is the case.  If the privilege wasn't properly raised in this case, there's probably no court in the country more likely to so hold than the Ninth Circuit, which is where any appeal from the trial court's decision in this case would be litigated.

        •  Limited scope state secrets privilege is OK (3+ / 0-)

          No one claims a court has to disclose classified material; what's illegitimate is dismissing the entire case just because it might potentially raise national security issues.

          "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

          by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:54:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  It says something alright (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      willibro, RenMin

      As I anticipated, many of the comments don't like it, but I guess the fact that your diary is #1 on the recommended list says SOMETHING, anyway.

      What it says is that if Barack Obama went on a shooting rampage one day and killed 20 innocent people, there would be a diary that rises to the top of the rec list explaining that he only did it to heighten awareness over the need for gun control laws and how he's playing chess by tricking everyone into thinking he had bad motives when, in fact, he's did it to preserve our freedom.

      That's what it says.

    •  Total Mischaracterization of Critics' Position (5+ / 0-)

      Or at least my position.

      Obviously sovereign immunity isn't new or unprecedented.

      Invoking a non-specific provision of the Patriot Act to support a claim of sovereign immunity already rejected by the court; and in the face of the specific FISA statute that explicitly waived sovereign immunity in this very context ("Any person who is aggrieved by any willful violation of this chapter . . . may commence an action in United States District Court against the United States to recover money damages." -- that's what we're objecting to.

      Please do me the courtesy of addressing this point on the merits, not by knocking down straw men.

      You have to do a little review of the facts and the arguments made to realize just how outrageous and pernicious the DOJ position in this case is.  I beg you to do so.

      "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

      by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:45:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If it's outrageous and pernicious, then ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        freakofsociety

        the claim will be rejected, either by the trial court, or by the Ninth Circuit on appeal, possibly with sanctions if the court not only disagrees with the defense, but agrees with your characterization of it.  I'm in the middle of a couple of things right now, and simply don't have time to undertake a detailed analysis of the FISA statute.

        FWIW, while you may not have characterized the doctrine of sovereign immunity as new or unprecedented, plenty of other people did so in the comments to yesterday's rec. list diary.  

        •  What does it say about a DOJ that... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sphealey

          argues a claim that very well might be rejected as "outrageous and pernicious"?  I think they ( the administration, the DOJ and arguing lawyers) must believe it on some level....to strongly argue a claim that you do not think has any merit seems...absurd.  Why not walk in to court and argue..."aliens rule our universe and said so"?

          If you want to truly understand something, try to change it. - Kurt Lewin

          by anim8sit on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 07:20:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What if the court says "OK"? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RenMin, anim8sit, Calfacon

            > What does it say about a DOJ that...
            > argues a claim that very well might be
            > rejected as "outrageous and pernicious"?  

            So the Obama Justice Dept is playing 11-dimensional chess by advancing an argument that is "outrageous and pernicious" in the expectation that it will be rejected, the trial court says "OK, I buy" that, the appeals courts says "affirmed" and the Supreme Court says "certiorari denied".

            Now what?

            sPh

          •  I'm not suggesting that they ARE taking a ... (0+ / 0-)

            position they think might be rejected as "outrageous and pernicious."  I'm not even suggesting they're taking a position that's WRONG.  I thought I indicated pretty clearly that (1) I don't claim to be an expert on the FISA law, so I don't know whether the claim is meritorious or not, or whether it's outrageous or not, and (2) without knowing exactly what (properly) classified information might be revealed if the litigation were allowed to proceed, none of us really knows whether the privilege is being properly raised.

            •  Sure...but then we have people commenting... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RenMin, Calfacon

              who have reasonable and considered knowledge of these issues...Turley, Greenwald, and right here Jesselyn Radack.  Somehow for many others here...it is more important to malign these critics of this DOJ position rather than answer them.  And the critical voices almost all raise the same concern...that state secrets has never been used so broadly in order to have a case thrown out in its entirety.  Somehow...no one wants to answer why we should think that the Obama administration, arguing affirmatively, does not believe it possesses this power.

              If you want to truly understand something, try to change it. - Kurt Lewin

              by anim8sit on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 08:01:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Look, I'm not maligning anybody (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                stella0710

                But Turley claims to be an expert on virtually every legal subject under the sun, so he's no more an expert on this than on virtually any other legal subject.   And with all due respect to Jessalyn Radack, whose general abilities as a lawyer I don't doubt, she is no more an expert on FISA law than I am.

                •  still...central question not answered.... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sphealey, RenMin, Calfacon

                  I, and obviously many others, do not think arguing "it's my job" is an adequate defense to support that the administration is not AFFIRMATIVELY arguing for new powers.  Trying to pretend that Radack, who intimately understands the zietgiest of the DOJ, is not qualified to comment on procedure because she is not possibly an expert on FISA is disingenuous.  Trying to argue that Turley has no position on procedure is more of the same.  Again, they tend to say the same thing...that the Obama administration is arguing the same positions that the Bush administration did, that the government can raise the state secrets defense to dismiss a case in its entirety.

                  If you want to truly understand something, try to change it. - Kurt Lewin

                  by anim8sit on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:10:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This implies no disprespect to Jessalyn Radack .. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    stella0710

                    but she simply doesn't have any uniquely intimate understanding of "the zeitgeist of DOJ."  I spent 15 years there, which is considerably longer than Jessalyn Radack did, and I only went to DOJ after a nearly equivalent period of time with a firm and a state attorney general's office.

                    I'm not saying Jessalyn isn't qualified to comment, but she's no MORE qualified to comment than countless other lawyers who have spent significant time at DOJ, including those whose names are on the motion to dismiss.  The difference is that I don't assume, without knowing all the facts, that those lawyers have acted unethically or otherwise improperly.

  •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Boxer7, fayea, gobears2000

    Obama is not a Manchurian fucking bushie.

    "Clearly, many inside this Nation's Government anticipated it. It was Mr. bush and his gang who chose to ignore them." [KO 12/18/08]

    by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:07:41 PM PDT

    •  How do you know? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      not politickley a stoot, RenMin

      I sure can't tell right now.

      •  I know because I trust him (0+ / 0-)

        Maybe I didn't get dropped on my head as a baby in quite the same way as other people did.

        "Clearly, many inside this Nation's Government anticipated it. It was Mr. bush and his gang who chose to ignore them." [KO 12/18/08]

        by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:54:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You can't follow the person (5+ / 0-)

          Only the policy.

          When Obama's right -- which he has been on virtually all other issues -- I'll offer him wholehearted support.

          But he's wrong on this, and it is an abdication of our responsibility as citizens of a democracy to ignore that based on trust, or liking him, or any other non-germane issue.

          "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

          by RenMin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:58:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He's wrong on every fucking thing (0+ / 0-)

            Isn't it grand to not be a bushie fucking Red Stater?

            Now go talk down the economy.

            "Clearly, many inside this Nation's Government anticipated it. It was Mr. bush and his gang who chose to ignore them." [KO 12/18/08]

            by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:59:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sphealey, RenMin

            Clearly, we're not going to be listened too, though. We're disloyal.

            •  We hear yoiu (0+ / 0-)

              It's kind of like listening to Michelle Bachmann, but we hear you.

              You think Obama is going to sign another Patriot Act?

              You might want to get your head examined.

              "Clearly, many inside this Nation's Government anticipated it. It was Mr. bush and his gang who chose to ignore them." [KO 12/18/08]

              by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 01:09:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hey, that's OK homeslice (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sphealey, RenMin, anim8sit

                I never said Obama was a Manchurian Bushie, Eroded. I just asked how you could be so certain that he wasn't.

                But you go right ahead and insult me all you want. There, there. I know, sweetie, it's tough being a grownup. It's really hard to know who to trust, isn't it?

                I don't know about Obama passing another version of the Patriot Act, or not. A couple of months ago, I would have made the same guess as you. But then actual events have supervened, and my mind has begun to change a little more. More than it did after the last time Obama made a really, really bad decision about civil liberties (if that's confusing, go look up my diaries).

                Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens, right? Assuming something like that does happen, though, is your opinion about my head, its status and location, going to change at all? Or will it just be more of the same? What, exactly, would Obama have to do for you to stop dispensing insults to people like me and actually think about and/or respond rationally to what we're saying?

                •  Homeslice? (0+ / 0-)

                  I thought my old roomate made that up.

                  Almost 20 years ago.

                  Heh.

                  When are you "homeslices" getting impeachment on the table?

                  You can impeach him for following the law.

                  the law in the form of The Patriot Act.

                  You can make a video of yourselves sitting real small at the bottom of the screen while Nazis parade behind you and you can scream, "Obama followed the LAW OF THE LAND!!!"

                  It'll look real homeslicity grown-up.

                  "Clearly, many inside this Nation's Government anticipated it. It was Mr. bush and his gang who chose to ignore them." [KO 12/18/08]

                  by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 02:31:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Well, good luck with that, Eroded (0+ / 0-)

          A lot of people trusted Bush, too. Something like 90% of the country, I think, right after 9/11.

          •  Obama is to bush (0+ / 0-)

            As you lefty Obama-haters are to Glenn Beck.

            On to the Impeachment PUMAs!!!

            Have a nice day.

            "Clearly, many inside this Nation's Government anticipated it. It was Mr. bush and his gang who chose to ignore them." [KO 12/18/08]

            by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 02:14:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  if you can't tell, then I could recommend an MD (0+ / 0-)

        to pull your head from your ass.

        But, technically you're right, just as we don't know that he's not a Muslim sleeper agent bent on the destruction of the USA. Because we don't have any proof, absolute proof, he's not, right?

        Who knows. Nobody knows. It's all a big mystery, if you're a fucking moron.

        Barack Obama is a noble-hearted patriot and humble Christian, and he has my full faith and support.

        by benheeha on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:58:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, thanks awfully, benheeha (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          not politickley a stoot

          Profanities and recommendations on psychiatric care from anonymous Kossacks with "humble Christian" siglines are always welcome. I'd respond in kind, but I'm an angry atheist and just fresh out of bullshit today, sorry.

          What I do know is that, based on this event and several others in the past few months, there's substantial evidence to suggest that:

          1. Obama has never had any intention of making public the deeds of, let alone prosecuting, Bush-era war criminals.
          1. He thinks doing so would be both a political liability for him, and so disruptive to the nation as to further threaten the rule of law in the US.
          1. He has ordered his DOJ to prevent an outcome like (1) above, and they are busy doing it about as well as they can.

          I think he's very wrong about all of that, because the situation in (2) must be risked if we are ever to restore the rule of law in the US.

          So what I did today is stand up as well as I can and oppose him on it. I have written to the White House and my representatives, commented on this and other public forums, and renewed my membership in and donation schedule to the ACLU and the EFF, the plaintiffs in this case. I plan to demonstrate publicly should the option present itself.

          What did you do today, other than call me a moron?

  •  As a lawyer, I really appreciate your reasoned (9+ / 0-)

    analysis. More and more I've been getting whiplash when I come to check in on DKos. I went to bed last night all bummed at Keith Olberman and those on here who were jumping on the Obama-is-no-better-than-Bush bandwagon (again). Without the facts - or at least perspective (again). Apparently the need for instant gratification extends to absolutely everything. Then, today, here you are, restoring calm (or at least trying to). Thank you.  

    •  Right (8+ / 0-)

      Thats why so many of us here spent night and weekends canvassing for Obama and donating thousands of dollars to his campaign. So we can all get our rocks off "jumping on the Obama-is-no-better-than-Bush bandwagon" whenever we like. I know that's how I like to spend my time. Better than weed.

      And thanks for restoring my faith in human reason. Now that I know that nobody can express a rational opinion about Obama's DOJ without a JD and a minimum of three years as a Dewey Cheatum & Howe junior associate, I can just go back to bandwagon jumping.

      Rise for the flag salute.

      •  You seem to enjoy rumbling, but I don't. All (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KayCeSF, stella0710, gobears2000

        I was doing was trying to thank wm for providing an alternative view as to what might be happening from a lawyer's perspective, since I had similar thoughts but no inclination to write a diary. I didn't say you had to be a lawyer to understand the issues or that anyone wasn't entitled to an opinion, or shouldn't be upset. I'm just sick and tired of constant kneejerk battle. I want to hear all sides before going batshit. And, FWIW, I also donated thousands of dollars and worked weekends canvassing; maybe this is why I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt.

  •  So what does THIS mean? (4+ / 0-)

    Title 50 US Code Chapter 36, Subchapter 1, § 1810. Civil liability

    An aggrieved person, other than a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a) or (b)(1)(A) of this title, respectively, who has been subjected to an electronic surveillance or about whom information obtained by electronic surveillance of such person has been disclosed or used in violation of section 1809 of this title shall have a cause of action against any person who committed such violation and shall be entitled to recover—
    (a) actual damages, but not less than liquidated damages of $1,000 or $100 per day for each day of violation, whichever is greater;
    (b) punitive damages; and
    (c) reasonable attorney’s fees and other investigation and litigation costs reasonably incurred.

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:45:28 PM PDT

    •  depends on what "person" means (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wmtriallawyer, freakofsociety

       says the government -

       the government says the USA is not a person (as used in the first line you bolded) so that language does not constitute a waiver of sovereign immunity - so that while it looks like you can sue the government - actually anyone acting in their official capacity is immune and that language is just frosting.

       It is my understanding that the issue has been litigated and though the government has lost once it thinks it can keep relitigating.

      •  It certainly applies to all the other (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Boxer7, RenMin

        defendants the DoJ is trying to cut loose, doesn't it?

        Further, I would argue since it was the avowed policy of "the government" to violate the law, I think it complicates the pat response considerably.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 12:55:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "dismiss as to all claims, all defendants" (8+ / 0-)

           is what the Motion asks in its "prayer"  -

           but the Motion, to my humble eyes, admits that there is no basis for dismissal against the individual defendants or the agency - under the very language you quote.  

           The only way to get there, that I can see, is this breathtaking expansion of "state secrets and we can pry into your life whenever we want because we are the sovereign" privilege.  (Okay - so I added some of the title to the privilege asserted - but in fact that is what it is).

           I guess that brings us full circle - why is the Obama DoJ asking for such a broad judicial mandate to pry into my life - yes it is wonderfully juicy and exciting - but is that enough?

  •  Bullshit and every other mammalian shit (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raatz, BentLiberal, FrqntFlyr, RenMin, Calfacon

    The DOJ lawyers presumably also have to uphold the Constitution; they cannot make unconstitutional claims. Period.

  •  Thanks so much, wm, for explaining this in terms (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF
    that laypeople can understand.  I, for one, am so grateful to see so many attorneys using DailyKos and helping to keep us all up to date on lawsuits and law in general.

    Indict, convict, imprison. "Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

    by incognita on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 01:09:10 PM PDT

  •  This illustrates a big problem with KO's show. (5+ / 0-)

    KO never brings on someone he doesn't agree with.  In this particular case, the other side of the argment from KO's is very valid.  Simply bringing on Jonathan Turley and leaving at that, well, sucks.  KO should bring on someone from the other side to refute Turley's points so viewers can at least hear the other side.

    This is a problem I've always had with his show's format, but the problem is particularly acute when complex legal matters are involved, since the public generally does't have a clue about the legal intricacies involved, so it's important that both sides be heard.

  •  Thank you for an alternate view of the motion. (0+ / 0-)

    It has been difficult to keep the faith with the man I worked so hard to elect when so many little things start to add up.  And they are not really little: his FISA vote when he was still a Senator, his appointment of Geithner and his bail out plans with members of his administration trying to find loopholes to provide CEO bonuses, his apparent refusal to take any action to investigate or prosecute the illegal acts of the Bush Administration and his failure to include a single payer option in his healthcare plan among others.

    And then I take a deep breath and try to remember that he has been President less than 100 days, he is facing arguably, the worst economic situation in our history, ramping up one war while trying to end involvement in another, working shorthanded due to a recalcitrant GOP legislative delegation and facing flack from conservative members of his own party.  

    It is not like I didn't know the man was a centrist pragmatist, but I really did not expect to be looking at a choice between my admiration and belief in him and my reverent respect for the Constitution, as that is one battle that he will not win.

  •  Time to explain what changed, then (7+ / 0-)

       I strongly oppose retroactive immunity in the FISA bill.

       Ever since 9/11, this Administration has put forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand.

       The FISA court works. The separation of power works. We can trace, track down and take out terrorists while ensuring that our actions are subject to vigorous oversight, and do not undermine the very laws and freedom that we are fighting to defend.

       No one should get a free pass to violate the basic civil liberties of the American people - not the President of the United States, and not the telecommunications companies that fell in line with his warrantless surveillance program. We have to make clear the lines that cannot be crossed.

       That is why I am co-sponsoring Senator Dodd's amendment to remove the immunity provision. Secrecy must not trump accountability. We must show our citizens – and set an example to the world – that laws cannot be ignored when it is inconvenient.

       A grassroots movement of Americans has pushed this issue to the forefront. You have come together across this country. You have called upon our leaders to adhere to the Constitution. You have sent a message to the halls of power that the American people will not permit the abuse of power – and demanded that we reclaim our core values by restoring the rule of law.

       It's time for Washington to hear your voices, and to act. I share your commitment to this cause, and will stand with you in the fights to come. And when I am President, the American people will once again be able to trust that their government will stand for justice, and will defend the liberties that we hold so dear as vigorously as we defend our security.

    January 2008

  •  Bull (4+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    willibro, anim8sit, Calfacon, polar bear
    Hidden by:
    Loose Fur

    We did not elect Obama for business as usual.  We elected Obama to bring much needed change.

    Obama has morphed into Bush.  His own attorney general is going to state today that the states secret privileges was not abused by Bush.

  •  Looks like Glenn called you out (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, RickD, willibro, bigchin
    •  ouch. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lysias

      the last sentence too... place of honor...

      "History is a tragedy, not a melodrama." - I.F.Stone

      by bigchin on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 02:23:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Eh...I've been exchanging e-mails of him. (4+ / 0-)

      Unfortunately, his subsequent responses to my e-mails really brought my view of him down a notch or two, particularly with all the personal attacks. Too bad.  Because I respect what he has to say on this stuff.

      Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

      by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 02:28:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What did he say to you? (3+ / 0-)

        It'd be a shame if he resorted to personal attacks.

      •  I don't get it (5+ / 0-)

        I mean, if he really disagrees with you, then he should just tear you to shreds using the merits of his argument.

        I'll repeat what I said earlier: Just as we need to question Obama, we need to question our new media stars -- and Greenwald is undeniably that -- when they stray from the reality-based community. If anything, the universe of temptations facing Glenn right now is far more corrupting than anything Obama has on his plate.

        •  That's pretty frakking hilarious (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyeo

          The Leader of the Free World (as we used to call our presidents), with the power to order young soldiers to their deaths, fill seas with warships, and unleash global thermonuclear war, faces far fewer corrupting tempations than does a non-practicing lawyer with a blog.

      •  Personal attacks? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sphealey, lysias, IndyRobin, anim8sit

        Greenwald wrote:

        But where -- as here -- Obama embraces the very same extremist secrecy and immunity powers which provoked such intense criticism when Bush claimed those powers, any minimally honest person will react how Booman did.  It is simply impossible for X to have been a hallmark of lawless tyranny when Bush did it but an understandable or tolerable action (or, worse, a routine fulfillment of one's duties) when Obama does it.

        You can certainly interpret as a personal attack the comparison to Booman's reaction and the link to your Kos post added to the phrase "a routine fulfillment of one's duties".

        But you cannot claim that he's somehow mischaracterized your argument or lied in any real way about what your post tries to do.

        •  He's talking about e-mails (4+ / 0-)

          That Glenn sent to him...at least I think he is.

          •  That, and actually... (7+ / 0-)

            Greenwald linked me twice.  The second time was cited by willibro above...but the FIRST time he cited it and called me and those who commented on it "creepy Obama worshipers."

            Palin/Jindal 2012. I can dream...

            by wmtriallawyer on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 04:28:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yup. that full comment (2+ / 0-)

              of Glenn's:

              despite knowing that hordes of truly creepy Obama worshipers (see here -- post and comments) who spent the last several years venerating Olbermann (and people like Jonathan Turley) will now suddenly declare that they are untrustworthy, unreliable, hysterical hacks, etc. etc. -- all for saying exactly what they were saying in 2006 and 2007, but this time applying it to Obama rather than Bush.

              really reminded me of an email exchange with Greenwald posted by Al Giordano last summer.

              Greenwald is increasingly tilted towards a "it's my high horse, or no horse at all for you" ideology.

              "We are one, after all, you and I, together we suffer, together exist, and forever will recreate each other."
              Teilhard de Chardin

              by exmearden on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 07:58:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Pretty weak tea, exmearden (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sphealey
                1. Sorry, but a lot of the replies here ARE from creepy Obama worshippers. A "creepy Obama worshipper" is, to me, someone who is ready to go to any length to justify any decision Obama makes for no reason better than it is Obama making it. That's creepy and worshipful because it gives primacy to personality over policy, political party over justice, and personal loyalty over the law. I would think an (alleged) member of the bar like wmTL would have more sense of mission than to indulge in that crap.
                1. The second quote is entirely accurate, just as  I cited it. And nothing you or wmTL says here contradicts Greenwald's assertion in the second quote that the OP dissembles and is a less than honest reaction to the DOJ brief. So how is that a "personal attack"? wmTL has already admitted in at least one comment in this thread to having "serious reservations" about the legal reasoning therein. Yet here s/he still is, defending the defence against all comers, in at least a dozen comments. If wmTL actually wants those of us on the other side of this to take the argument seriously, why not discuss those doubts, so that the argument is at least slightly more even-handed?  
                1. Al Giordano has precisely zero credibility on "personal attack" issues, being a well-known creepy Obama worshipper himself. The very post you cite makes a personal, public attack on the motives of Greenwald, Hamsher and other people who have had the temerity to disagree with Obama policies publicly, alleging that they're all wreckers and some kind of cabal of crypto revanchist PUMAs. In Greenwald's and Hamsher's case, that's just demonstrably inaccurate, on the face of practically any post you care to pick that either of them made during the election.
                1. If wmTL really thinks Greenwald is making unwarranted personal attacks on him/her in private email exchanges, then why not go ahead and share some of them with us? He can ask Greenwald's permission, or not. Regular readers have seen Greenwald admit to errors before. And if he doesn't, and you have evidence of that, then I'll cheerfully admit he fucked up. I'm not Greenwald's worshipper, and if he's wrong, he'll lose credibility in my eyes. But absent some documentary evidence, you'll have to forgive my not trusting wmTL's word on this any more than I trust his or her legal argument.
                1. I think wmTL and defenders like you are going to have to do a lot better than this. I suggest you start by picking on someone your own size. wmTL behaves as though status as a non-lawyer disqualified most of us here from even understanding his/her argument properly, let alone disagreeing with it. I'm not willing to be cowed much by that, having met and worked with quite a lot of lawyers who are much worse at logical argument than I am. But let's assume that's true. Does s/he win simply for addressing the laity? There are also quite a lot of other self-described lawyers in this thread, including several who claim to be current or former DOJ lawyers. And quite a lot of them are frank about calling wmTL's argument a tissue of horseshit. S/he's barely addressed any of their arguments. Get busy.
                •  Sorry, wrong link (0+ / 0-)

                  The Giordano accusation was not in your link, but this one: http://narcosphere.narconews.com/...

                  But of a piece with his general attitude: Anyone who criticizes Obama is a PUMA. Just search his blog for  "Hamsher", "Greenwald", "Sirota" or "Krugman".

                •  defenders like me? (0+ / 0-)

                  hmmm. Where are you getting that from?

                  I am expressing an opinion only on what I perceive to be Greenwald's tone and reactionary approach.

                  The merits or lack of merit to the Government case are a bit separate imho from my opinion of Greenwald. I frankly couldn't care less who he supports or excoriates; I just prefer a more concise, less knee-jerk, less ad hominum soliloquy.

                  As to the actual EFF case and the subsequent DOJ Motion to Dismiss, the Motion to Dismiss offers a great deal of instructional response to the too broad "dragnet" approach of Jewel. In fact, it's a veritable roadmap on how to properly reconstruct the EFF suit.

                  I'm small fry (as you rightly suggest). And I'm not a lawyer, either.

                  But I've stayed at a Holiday Inn.

                  "We are one, after all, you and I, together we suffer, together exist, and forever will recreate each other."
                  Teilhard de Chardin

                  by exmearden on Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 01:44:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Selective quoting doesn't help your cause n/t (0+ / 0-)
      •  I agree with your sentiments about Glenn (4+ / 0-)

        He just can't seem to stop being condescending enough to have a decent conversation at times.  You should post what he wrote to you ... he would do the same to you.  

      •  He's an asshole (0+ / 0-)

        I've never liked Greenwald...

        •  Maybe...but unlike you.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CTPatriot

          he is a respected constitutional lawyer and commentator, he has a real column....and he actually has read the briefs, and talked to people involved in the issues under discussion.  But hey...we should all take your word for it.

          If you want to truly understand something, try to change it. - Kurt Lewin

          by anim8sit on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 07:36:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  He's an asshole to people like you (0+ / 0-)

          because he makes consistent, closely reasoned arguments on topics he thinks are important and about which he is well-informed. And because he insists that anyone who disagrees with him sufficiently to publicly attack his arguments do so in a similarly consistent, well-informed, and rational way. He displays respect for those who are able to do so. He displays contempt for those who are not and still want to play.

          This makes him a rather scary person to fuck around with (which is how he earned the nickname "Glenzilla"). And in this, he is no different from a lot of smart, honest lawyers who are good at what they do and passionate about the principles they believe underlie their cases. Which makes him rare and valuable, like Kuntsler, Floyd Abrams, and a few others I have met.

          I honestly don't expect you to understand much of that. But it ought to be said.

  •  Thank you so much for explaining this (3+ / 0-)
    I didn't understand any of the actual legal jargon and was suspicious about whether I could trust Turley's word. I like Turley but I find that he tends to exaggerate a bit. I was thinking about this today actually.
  •  I am just not following the logic here (13+ / 0-)

    I think it is one thing to make an argument that sovereign immunity plays a role here.  But the claim of state secrets privilege is quite another thing.  These lawyers are arguing that the lawsuit cannot possibly be brought against the government because all of the evidence (even if it's of illegal wiretapping) constitutes "state secrets".

    This defense seems so wrongheaded I just don't understand how you can defend it as "business as usual".  

    When the lawyers assert this argument in a lawsuit, they are implicitly saying that their client agrees with the logic behind the motion.  I thus do not fathom how you can argue that Obama is simultaneously using an argument in a legal case without said argument rising to the level of "policy".  What is "policy" other than what the government argues in a legal case?  In what other venue does it matter if President Obama demands that the "state secrets" argument applies to wiretapping done illegally during the Bush years?

    I have to agree with Glenn Greenwald here.  You are glossing over the illegal nature of the actions and, while it may be typical for a motion to dismiss to include a claim of state sovereign, I think you move into a whole different world when you invoke the "state secrets" claim.  Obama's lawyers are claiming that FISA, a law that was explicitly written to protect American citizens against illegal surveillance, cannot be used as a tool against illegal surveillance because Congress, unbelievably, did not "waive sovereign immunity" when writing the law.

    Pardon me, but this motion is a piece of crap.  

    "My friend, if you think we're going to spend a billion dollars of our money over there, you are sadly mistaken." - Donald Rumsfeld

    by RickD on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 02:03:34 PM PDT

    •  Nicely put, bit I think the point is (0+ / 0-)

      that the argument is being made before the court. It's a separation-of-powers thing. The court decides the case on its merits. It will rule on this motion. The case will go to the Supreme Court if need be. That's how the system works. It's got nothing to do with executive-branch policy. If the motion is "a piece of crap" (and I don't think the diarist would entirely disagree with you about that), then it's up to the court to reject it as such.

      Not that it will happen, but imagine for a moment that court actually accepted the argument and threw out the case on the basis of this motion. What would happen then? I'll put my money on outrage in Congress and a stronger FISA-type law being passed to keep what the Bush administration did (now that is executive-branch policy!) from happening again. Signed by Obama with smiles all around.

      •  Federal courts defer to the federal govt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anim8sit, Calfacon

        and the DOJ in all sorts of ways.  If the DOJ supports a wrongheaded argument, it's already halfway towards becoming the law.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 03:58:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So...the mighty Obama DOJ is arguing a piece... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sphealey

        of crap? Something so devoid of merit that they do not even believe in it? Then Greenwald, Turley and Olberman are right. There is no difference on this issue between the two administrations.

        If you want to truly understand something, try to change it. - Kurt Lewin

        by anim8sit on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 05:45:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The point is that it's how the legal system works (0+ / 0-)

          There may be other evidence that Greenwald et al. are using to justify the charge that there is no difference between them. I don't know. But this motion, in itself, is not evidence of anything other than lawyers covering the law and establishing a basis for a sound ruling by the court. The court needs to rule on this issue. It will. The case will move on, with the court's position established, and this aspect of the case will be clear on appeal. It's wrong to think that either side would not want a ruling on this aspect of the case for exactly this reason. Leave no stone unturned. Just because the Bush DOJ, in its incompetence, didn't turn this stone over doesn't mean it shouldn't be turned over.

          •  I would think you would put forward.... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Calfacon

            your strongest arguments first...and I would suspect this is what Greenwald et. al. are responding to.  I have yet to meet a lawyer who wants their case blown out of the water by a judge.  So, I remain with my earlier comment...either the Obama administration is incompetent by forwarding an argument that is without merit, or they believe the argument has merit, and as such it is the position of the administration, or they believe that if they win on a suspect argument, despite the precedent that that would create, that is more important than arguing for good law.  I would say that Truman actually believed in his position in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer.  I suspect that Greenwald is on point here, and anyone arguing people are "just doing their jobs" is being an apologist.  

            If you want to truly understand something, try to change it. - Kurt Lewin

            by anim8sit on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 06:38:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So if a federal employee smashes into my house... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RickD, anim8sit

            > But this motion, in itself, is not evidence of
            > anything other than lawyers covering the law and
            > establishing a basis for a sound ruling by the
            > court.

            So if a federal employee driving a federal car jumps the curb, crosses my lawn, and smashes into my house causing thousands of dollars in damage then the government lawyers have a "duty" to assert that (1) the person driving the car was not a federal employee (2) the person driving the car was not on federal business (3) the car was not owned by the federal government (4) the existence of the car was a State Secret ... and so on?  They have a "duty" to do that?

            sPh

            •  No, that's not what he's saying... (0+ / 0-)

              if a federal employee (or an elected official, or even a diplomat) smashes into your house, he/she gets arrested and goes to local criminal court. You could also sue them for damages in civil court.

              They didn't smash into your house in their official capacity.

      •  specious arguments (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sphealey, IvanR

        Defense lawyers are not obliged to make specious arguments.  

        It is bad enough that they are making this argument, but I simply cannot fathom the argument that the Obama administration is not responsible for the arguments that its own counsel is making.  

        It doesn't seem sufficient to me to put all of the burden for what the government should be doing upon the judicial branch.  Considering that judges are themselves appointed by the executive branch, this seems like an incredibly naive way to view the separation of powers.

        "My friend, if you think we're going to spend a billion dollars of our money over there, you are sadly mistaken." - Donald Rumsfeld

        by RickD on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 09:36:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Superb analysis (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, David Kroning, Loose Fur

    thanks for the balance here.  As I mentioned in another diary some of what people want here is best handled through the legislative process or executive action.

  •  for those who attack below... (4+ / 0-)

    consider this:

    what IF lawyers ONLY defended the "righteous".

    what IF lawyers would only defend the "innocent".

    what IF lawyers refused to represent those accused of murder, pedophilia, abuse, etc.

    from some of the comments here and below - it would seem that many forget that lawyers defend the LAW.  IF the laws are bad, change them... or have them declared invalid... OR enforce them.

    but until then, the adversarial system is the best we have got - either prove the law is correct or have it struck down - and the only way to get that done is to take it to trial!

  •  Obama DOJ is following BushCo rules, period. n/t (3+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    doe, IvanR, anim8sit
    Hidden by:
    smartdemmg
  •  Exactly. (0+ / 0-)

    Regardless of the context, if you work in government as an attorney, and you litigate (i.e. go to court), the first thing you do if you are sued is to look for a way out of the lawsuit.  It's that simple.

    Exactly. The Obama DOJ is handling this lawsuit the same way DOJs have always handled lawsuits. A simplistic, knee-jerk reaction, without any regard for "context."

    No change.

  •  This Diary is Tone Deaf (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sphealey, whenwego, willibro, IvanR

    just like the Obama DOJ to why people are upset about this, you can take your legal arguments and put them where the sun don't shine, we expected CHANGE and this aint it!

  •  Why It's Creepy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    notcaesar

    Because Obama is doing EXACTLY what Bush did, making the Executive the only branch with power. He promised transparency; he is giving us obfuscation. And some people are defending it. How can we not see that?

  •  Just my take (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sphealey, anim8sit, notcaesar

    But it seems that your theory could be boiled down to this acronym

    IOKIYAAGL

    It's OK if you are a Government Lawyer.

    (And never mind the substance of the motion to dismiss, nor it's invocation of extraordinary extension of powers).

    •  More than that..... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sphealey, Calfacon, ItsSimpleSimon

      if you are a government lawyer...you should argue positions that create new and unheard of executive powers...and that in no way means that you (or the administration) actually believe the that argument has the slightest shred of credibility. That's what the diarist seems to want us to believe.  but really...puh-leeze

      If you want to truly understand something, try to change it. - Kurt Lewin

      by anim8sit on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 05:53:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you to the diarist (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, David Kroning, TominGA

    and the rest of attorneys on here so speak from fact and experience and not from armchair bullshit.

  •  Great diary. The amateurish mistake KO (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tln41

    made was to get angry before understanding the distinction between a court action and goverment policy. The bottom line is that FISA is US law. If someone sues the government for following it the DOJ lawyers have no choice but to do everything possible to defend their client. The policy remedy is to ditch that law and KO should have been advocating that the Obama administration do that instead of trying to score a cheap gotcha moment which has damaged his credibility as it is.The alternative is a bottomless pit of legal suits against the Obama administration that will be never ending. To advocate for the DOJ to roll over would be opening a pandora's box. Thanks for the insight.

    Personnaly I support Obama and am not afraid of people who try to tar me with a brush and imply that those like me have 'drunk the kool aid' or are lemmings or robots. I am a thinker and I know who I support and who I don't support. And I also know my mind very well and have the intellectual capacity to change my opinion whenever I am convinced I should.

  •  How else would this be done? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exmearden

    We need a LEGAL decision from a US court to poke holes in the Bush claims that what they did was fine.

    If DoJ settled, what would that do? How would that prevent a future president from doing the exact same thing Bush/Cheney did?

    The Obama DoJ does not need to be setting policy, but a legal precedent.

    My view is that all of the crazy Bush/Cheney defenses need to be thrown into the Motion to Dismiss so they can be thrown out.

  •  This thread is so long (0+ / 0-)

    I have spent 3 minutes trying to find the part I commented on, and I have yet to find it.

    My opinion didn't really matter anyway.  However, I also didn't intend to post and leave.  It's late, and it was a long day.  Take care, Kossacks.

    "We laugh because it hurts."

    by prestochango on Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 11:37:53 PM PDT

  •  Watching Pelosi (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wmtriallawyer

    Pelosi could not have been clearer last night.  Torture and wiretapping positions taken by the Obama DOJ will not receive continuing support in Congress.   Here's what I think it means.  I do not think that her conscience drove her there, and I do not believe she will lead a charge.  Instead, I believe she has put her finger to the wind, taken the temperature of her base, and she knows she will be unable to corral the Democrats in the House if the democratic wing of the Democratic Party continues its focus here.  We are winning!  It's not over, but one of the Villagers supposedly on our side has just told us they have no defense against the level of outrage we are expressing.  Keep up the good work.  

    And just to keep this on topic, that means an argument about the tactics of the DOJ lawyers in this suit misses the point that they are losing the support of their clients by what they are doing.  I am sure trial lawyers know that is a bad thing for their case.

  •  truly creepy Obama worshippers (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muggsy

    Yes, that is exactly what Greenwald has specifically called wmtriallawyer and his supporters  here and he's damn right. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Please read the full article.

    http://www.salon.com/...

    Serious credit to Olbermann for putting on Bankston tonight and thus continuing his coverage of this story, despite knowing that hordes of truly creepy Obama worshipers (see here -- post and comments) who spent the last several years venerating Olbermann (and people like Jonathan Turley) will now suddenly declare that they are untrustworthy, unreliable, hysterical hacks, etc. etc. -- all for saying exactly what they were saying in 2006 and 2007, but this time applying it to Obama rather than Bush.

    Note: the "see here" part links to this diary.

    •  What should Obama have done? (0+ / 0-)

      How could Obama get a ruling that what Bush did was illegal? Settle a lawsuit? Perhaps what would have been some kind of feel-good victory, but nothing that would prevent a future executive to do exactly what Bush did.

      This needs to be decided by a court to generate case law. The more lame arguments in a motion, the more potential case law to force future policy decisions.

      I am not an Obama worshiper or a lawyer, but this makes perfect sense to me.

      I see a lot of people complaining, but few saying what Obama should have done differently if the goal is to try to ensure what Bush did does not happen again.

      The only concern here is that a court will somehow uphold what Bush did. I am hopeful that does not happen, but I am not sure how else you get the case law to prevent it.

      •  He should also start a war on false premises (0+ / 0-)

        ... in order to give the courts and Congress a fresher chance to bring a war criminal to heel. He should mimic every authoritarian action made by Bush in preparation for a President who will promise even changier change -- and if that President goes back on his word as Obama has -- well, who gives a shit because this citizenry thing was always about helping out the big men during campaigns anyway. The real 11th dimensional chess.

        Or he could begin prosecuting the criminals of the Bush era, revealing the secret crimes rather than protecting them, etc.

  •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

    The DOJ's job is to represent the people of the United States -- not the government. They are two entirely separate entities. Once the DOJ starts arguing, for example, the Endangered Species Act does actually mean you shouldn't make a species go extinct, then the attorneys need to quit their jobs and stop damaging society. Take up golf and shut up.

    My name is Douglas Watts.

    by Pometacom on Fri Apr 10, 2009 at 11:53:10 PM PDT

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