Okay so I am going to do something I swore never to do. I am going to write a response to a particular diary.
In fact I am writing in response to Just Following Orders by OPOL.
Why you ask? Because enough is enough. Because much of what is being said there is misleading or a straight out lie.
smaller update Title changed from "Your Attention Please" to current one via suggestion
Yes I know that is a a vast claim, I am sure that after reading this more then a few people will attack me.
I however know I am right.
Let's start out with the most egregious bit of misinformation
hose who ordered torture cannot be prosecuted because they weren’t present when the torture was done, and those who administered the torture cannot be prosecuted because they were just following orders. All nice and neat, no harm no foul, a perfect Catch-22.
This is a flat out wrong. It is a conflating statements by two separate governments. Frankly this alone deserves an apology.
OPOL has taken the statement by the Spanish Court that stated their opinion that only those that did the actual torturing should be prosecuted and added it on to Obama's statement.
Never mind the sheer fallacy of doing so, never mind how dishonest such a tactic is. Apparently all that matters is convincing others to agree with you.
And I have to reject that, this is the same type of BS that we regularly deride the GOP and the wing nuts for.
We must hold ourselves to the same standard as we hold others to otherwise at best we are hypocrites and at worst our standard is meaningless.
Next I want to address this:
If these crimes go unpunished, no one will ever again be safe from the possibility of torture - not our soldiers and not our citizens. The USA no longer has a moral leg to stand on when it comes to opposing anyone’s torture by foreign governments or from any other party. And if our government can torture foreign nationals with impunity, who’s to say that they cannot do the same to American citizens? No one, that’s who.
This is a classic emotional appeal with a bait and switch.
Where is the proof? This is a huge claim to make and yet where is the proof?
No one was ever prosecuted for the Trail of Tears and yet I do not see people suggesting we repeat that. Or maybe since no one was ever prosecuted for the Japanese and German interment camps OPOL believes we will do that again?
Justice and learning from our mistakes are not the same thing. In fact you can have justice and not learn anything; on the other hand you can learn from your mistakes and not have justice.
As for the moral argument, the United States has indeed lost a lot of it's moral footing. That said just claiming that will create more torture or enable more torture is not enough. If you are to make such a sweeping claim, back it up.
I would like to end this way, this is not a simple topic and it is certainly one that inflames one's emotions. We however must have some objectivity, least we make erroneous claims.
I do wish to see the policy makers charged but I reject any claim of the same to the CIA. There is no way for every CIA agent to be 100% familiar with the Law and all it's complexities. That is why we have lawyers. I understand people are impatient and anxious but Obama (as I see it) at the very least has earned the time to make his decisions. And after that, well what will be will be. But please people stop jumping the gun as you might end up looking very foolish.
Update I want to point out a comment below by commenter sherijr because it speaks to first hand knowledge about orders and what happens if you disobey and even how the circumstances you can do so.