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Let's put this straight right off the bat: favoring the use of torture is not a political position, it's a mental illness.

Any further discussion of torture should be unnecessary. However, since our our national media seems to be enthusiastically pimping depravity as a governing principle, we might as well point out that the guys that have been there, done that, seen the elephant show and lived to come home? They say it doesn't work, isn't worth it, and they want nothing to do with it.

If you need further evidence, check out Mike Ritz, a former SERE instructor who worked with our servicemen and women to prepare them for harsh interrogations torture, and who went on to found his own private "stress laboratory" where he could "use just about any technique" he had read about to "see what kind of results he could get." Tony Lagouranis, a former Army interrogator who questioned prisoners in several locations, including Abu Ghraib. In other words, these are two people who have tortured other people, neither of them is shy about that fact, and they are willing to talk about that experience. Both men appeared on NPR's Tell Me More (audio link). The guys who have really done this stuff to actual human beings do not exactly back up the words of American's biggest Dick.

First off, they discussed the difference between what service people in the intelligence field had been trained to do, and what they were then asked to do by the Bush administration.

Michel Martin (HOST): Tony, do you think that any of the techniques that you were trained in constitute torture?

TONY Lagouranis: I wasn't trained in those techniques that I would call torture, that's part of the problem. In training we were told we had to follow Geneva Conventions to the letter, which wouldn't involve any harsh or coercive techniques. Once we got into Iraq we were told Geneva Conventions didn't apply and we were given a new set of rules, for which we didn't have training. Those rules were sort of open ended. In fact, the document called "Interrogation Rules of Engagement" said the interrogator needs the freedom to be creative in the interrogation. These were only guidelines. Among those guidelines were the use of military working dogs, sleep deprivation, inducing hypothermia or extreme heat, isolation -- I do believe those things constitute torture.

So even those people who had been trained to carry out interrogation suddenly found themselves confronted by rules that had not been tested in the field. They were unprepared, untrained, and left on their own with open-ended "guidelines" that encouraged "harsh treatment." And they were in an environment where their fellow servicemen and women were dying every day from bombs, snipers, and ambushes. How do you suppose that worked out for them?

HOST: s there some cost to you, psychologically or emotionally, in using these techniques?

TONY: Yes. When I came back I was experiencing intense guilt. I'm still dealing with that, and I think that any sane person put in the situation that I was of brutalizing a helpless person, it doesn't matter who they are, you're going to suffer psychological consequences. A friend of mine trained with me as an interrogator and trained in Arabic with me. She was sent to Iraq and asked to use these harsh techniques in the interrogation booth in Tal Afar. She refused, twice. She was ultimately taken off of her post. She... she killed herself rather than use these techniques. We're asking our young servicemen and women to make a choice. To torture people or destroy themselves, and I don't think that's how we want to treat our service people.

I wonder if, when tallying all those imaginary people saved from imaginary plots foiled by torture, Cheney takes a moment to subtract the very real people in our military -- and in our intelligence services -- damaged by their involvement with these procedures? No, of course not. Dick Cheney, king of deferments, lord of the hidden bunker, is far to tough to worry about something like that.

Why would any member of the service let disobedience of these rules drive them to such distraction that they would take their own life?

Host: You can disobey an order that's unlawful. In the real world does that happen?

TONY: Yes, but we were given rules of engagement issued by the Pentagon, so we believed that the orders issued were legal.

That's the real effect of the dry memos and furtive phone calls to the White House. That's where it really came down. Men and women who had already volunteered to put themselves on the line for a nation they loved found themselves trapped by orders that they they were told were legal, but which they knew to be immoral. It was a torture as painful as any being used in dark cells. People who put on the uniform of the United States were then ordered to dishonor everything that uniform stands for. It's hard to imagine a deeper betrayal.

What did we get in exchange for our honor?

HOST: one of the points of contention in this debate is whether the techniques actually yield useful information. Vice President Dick Cheney has been very insistent that the information obtained using these methods was important to American safety.

TONY: In my experience they didn't yield any useful information. Even if it did, you couldn't separate it from the information that wasn't useful. You can torture somebody into confessing to any crime you want. I could torture you until you confessed to murdering JFK, but that doesn't mean you did it, and it's certainly not intelligence.

But we only tortured the worst of the worst, people we knew had done us harm.

TONY: Many of the detainees I interrogated, and tortured, didn't have information to give me. They hadn't committed any crime or action against the US forces. Beyond that, even when you're dealing with someone who does have information, I think that torturing them is the worst possible way to go. The FBI does not use torture and they have a 90% success rate in their interrogation practices, and I saw nothing close to that in Iraq using any of these techniques.

MIKE Ritz: I agree with Tony completely. I'd like to point out this isn't guesswork, we know this to be fact. If you look at the case of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi who was initially captured and cooperated with FBI interrogations. They were using report building techniques, they were giving him the incentive of promising that his wife and family could come to the United States. And this guy, who was very guilty, was cooperating, giving us actual intelligence information. What happened was that the CIA came in, asked if they could use more enhanced interrogation techniques on the individual and through rendition took him to a foreign country. They utilized those techniques. At first he clammed up completely, and then ultimately he linked al-Qaeda to Iraq and claimed that Iraq had trained al-Qaeda in weapons of mass destruction, which we now know to be completely false information and some would speculate sparked the war.

When these techniques are used as part of military training exercises, they come with limits, with guidelines on duration, with supervision, with knowledge from both those undergoing the torture and those administering it, that the technique is as physically safe as it can be. That's a far cry from something being done in a room where emotions are running high, supervisors are out of sight, and the guidelines are ill defined.

MIKE: There is an effect on individuals who subject others to any of this cruel treatment. There are psychologists at SERE school who are there to not only evaluate the people undergoing the training, but to evaluate the staff and cadre that are there to make sure that they're not losing their senses. That they are maintaining composure.

How different is it when the psychologists are the ones directing torture and asking for ever harsher treatment?

Cheney may want to blame what happened at Abu Ghraib on a few rotten apples, but when you take people whose buddies are dying around them, tell them that the rules they were taught back in training are void, and provide examples by way of CIA contractors who are redefining the boundaries in daily phone calls with the president's personal attorney... It's not the apples that are rotten, it's the tree.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:01 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  How the fuck would you know... (13+ / 0-)

    ...that they're the worst of the worst, Dick?

    It's embarrassing that we even have to argue with this soulless turd, but it turns out that enough people are that easily scared in America.

  •  Entire Topic Is Pasted From a Different Place (10+ / 0-)

    You'd think we were getting hit by terrorists every month or week or so, periodic rocket attacks, surrounded by hostile countries that vow to wipe us off the map.

    Our entire terrorism response paradigm makes sense in that context.

    It doesn't make any sense in our context.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:06:20 PM PDT

  •  Great post (22+ / 0-)

    I hope these guys get lots of TV time. In fact, I hope they're invited on to debate Cheney to his face, if, god forbid, Cheney gets any more air time. Better yet, I hope they get to testify at Cheney's war crimes trial. A guy can dream ....

    -7.75, -7.64 "In the conservative lexicon, 'freedom' means the right to starve to death without anyone giving a shit." -- Me

    by scorponic on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:07:35 PM PDT

  •  we have a lot of work to do, (5+ / 0-)

    to make sure people listen, and hear, the truth.

    The Addington perpwalk is the trailhead for accountability in this wound on our national psyche.--Sachem

    by greenbird on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:08:18 PM PDT

    •  Yelling as loud as I can!!! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ms Citizen

      I talked about it a few weeks ago here -  (yes, I am pimping my diary!)

      I can tell you that in my very informal poll of my peers it cuts about 70/30 again water boarding.  Among those of us who do intel for a living its more like 90/10.

      do not torture

      It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

      by ksuwildkat on Sat May 23, 2009 at 09:12:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No, it shouldn't need to be said, (14+ / 0-)

    but thanks for stating the obvious: Torture is only "acceptable" to social deviants.

    "I want to know if the president knows what a fucking asshole Don Rumsfeld is."--Bush Adviser on Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, Fran Townsend

    by big spoiled baby on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:08:43 PM PDT

  •  One of the many of problems I have with these (14+ / 0-)

    techniques is the use of military personnel to commit war crimes. Who are these people that they believe it is just to use them this way? These draft dodging cowards. I will say that we should act better than them, unlike they chose to do in all of us, and, after a fair trial, send them away for the rest of their miserable lives.

  •  Excellent commentary, DT (16+ / 0-)

    Let's put this straight right off the bat: favoring the use of torture is not a political position, it's a mental illness.

    Not just an apt quote, but a rallying cry.

    If anyone comes across a free transcript of this show, post the link, please. I do the prisoner abuse/torture material at the History Commons, and this is excellent.

  •  Heard this show the other night and wrote (11+ / 0-)

    a couple of posts about it. It was an excellent interview that smacks down all the Cheney talking points.

    "Everybody does better, when everybody does better" - Paul Wellstone 1997

    by yuriwho on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:10:01 PM PDT

  •  Seems to me that we stand at a fork in the road (9+ / 0-)

    as a nation. One direction leads to destruction of our nation as the founders intended, and the other allows the experiment to continue and hope to triumph.

    Mr. Obama?

    It's not a campaign anymore, Mr. Obama.

    by huntergeo on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:10:12 PM PDT

  •  I don't know why Cheney... (11+ / 0-)

    ... even puts up the facade of not calling it torture.  He clearly believes torture is acceptable.

  •  Tree vs. apple (12+ / 0-)

    she killed herself rather than use these techniques

    It is remarkable, that such a rotten tree can still deliver such fine fruit.

  •  A few rotten apples are to blame! (13+ / 0-)

    Only it wasn't the low level soldiers.  The rotten apples were Cheney, Addington, and Rumsfield.

  •  This has probably been said before (5+ / 0-)

    and I run the risk of Kossacks saying, "well duh" but I have always thought the danger lies in black and white thinking like Cheney's.

    With all due to respect to any law enforcement, FBI, CIA, troops etc.....

    If someone wants to attack us, they may succeed. I give some credit to the Bush Admin but I have still never seen a very long list of attempts that were stopped (I know there were/are some).

    Count me as one of the people who thinks its stupid to use Jack Bauer (24) as a real life scenario.

    The world is very,very complicated.It is right to work on how others view us. Every time Cheney speaks with such certainty that we are less safe...what the hell, is he polling terrorists?

    •  One (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ms Citizen

      Im "in the biz" and I know of ONE post 9/11 attack that was stopped.  And those clowns in New Jersey and the bigger clowns in Florida dont count.  Oh, and the FBI broke that ONE that was real........and they didnt water board anyone.

      It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

      by ksuwildkat on Sat May 23, 2009 at 09:24:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They don't care that it's torture (9+ / 0-)

    These GOP apologists, and those who framed the torture paradigm, none of them give a rat's ass about torture being conducted in the name of the American people.  

    They don't care about the Geneva Conventions, they don't care about bringing more risk to troops and other workers in these areas.  They don't care about human rights.  All they care about is getting to be the cock-of-the-walk and thinking that the bad guys are being dealt with by their own personal army of Jack Bauers.  

    They are so afraid that they could appear "weak", that they will do anything to prevent that.  I truly believe these people are more afraid of that, of appearing to look weak, then they are of real terrorists or the risk of a future attack.  

    It's all about them, folks.  All about them, their money and their need for power and control.    

    •  You've adequately described pathological (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, bushondrugs

      Narcism. "All about them." I suppose the perfect breeding ground for this disorder is elite Republican households where children are taught from an early time on that they are different, and they are special. The rules don't apply to them when every creature comfort and childish whim is catered to. Other people, including house servants are seen as inferior.
      Then before you know it,the unloved brat is sent off to a finishing school like Philips Exeter where the really bad conditioning childhood experiment leads to even worse layers of bizarro world. Power, and the acquisition of that power become the only real goal. Of course all of this is masked behind platitudes of serving God and country. When in fact, the real game is to serve oneself. Horrible.

  •  Torture is an Obscenity. (9+ / 0-)

    The worst kind of obscenity.

    GW Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Rove, Wolfowitz, Powell, - all are War Criminals - and they need to be brought to trial for what the have done to Our Country.

    America was not an innocent by a long shot before 2001 - but the Bush Administration degraded her and made her a Porn star in the worst kind of way.

    "But such is the irresistable nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing." -Thomas Paine

    by Tommymac on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:15:53 PM PDT

  •  It is extremely distressing (14+ / 0-)

    to hear so often the "torture does not work" argument taking precedence over "torture is wrong."

    I could have been a soldier... I had got part of it learned; I knew more about retreating than the man that invented retreating. --Mark Twain

    by NogodsnomastersMary on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:16:28 PM PDT

  •  It shouldn't need to be said ... (16+ / 0-)

    ...but keep saying it anyway, DT, because quite a few people - including some who visit here - still don't seem to get it.

    "Oh. Who's being naive, Kay?" - Michael Corleone

    by Meteor Blades on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:17:33 PM PDT

  •  there's a reason torture is illegal... (10+ / 0-)

    Torture is a Crime Against Humanity™.
    The Republican claim that it is necessary, that Obama is endangering our nation by speaking against it, is disgusting... and disingenuous... and downright evil, just like a lot of the other shit the GOP says and does.

    My father sailed the "Murmansk run" in WW2. My wife's grandfather, at the same time, was fighting northeast of Moscow in the Great Patriotic War. They fought against what the Republicans now embrace and defend:

    fascism noun

    1. (often capitalized) a political philosophy, movement, or regime ... that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
    1. a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

    I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

    by willie horton on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:17:59 PM PDT

  •  It's amazing (5+ / 0-)

    How the Republicans find a way to piss on any position any Democrat takes - in fact, I'm certain that's their only governing principle ("D = goober").

    "By disclosing these techniques, you render them ineffective because the terrorists can prepare for them." - To which I say: good.  Try something else.

  •  great post. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hedwig, NogodsnomastersMary

    Give Harry Reid Hell!

    by bagman on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:22:56 PM PDT

  •  In the Bible (10+ / 0-)

    the original sin - the one that got Lucifer tossed out of heaven - was pride. Thinking he was equal to God.

    The Torture Gang's sin seem to be similar. They knew better. They knew better than the CIA about Iraq having WMD and links to Al Qaeda. They knew better than the generals how many troops were needed to occupy Iraq. They knew better than the FBI how to interrogate people. They knew more than anyone about what was and wasn't legal. They knew more than everyone about everything.

    And, as it turns out, they knew nothing worth knowing.

    But they still won't admit error. They still insist they knew better.

    And they'll keep saying that as the cell door slams.

    There is one final Judge they will get to try to convince. But He's a notorious hard-ass.

    Hell waits.

    Smiting trolls on the tubes since 1977!

    by blue aardvark on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:28:01 PM PDT

  •  Thank you (n/t) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Mohandas Gandhi

    by msmacgyver on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:28:48 PM PDT

  •  moral authority (6+ / 0-)

    so many people are justifying obeying orders to torture by saying they thought it was legal.

    seriously--have they NEVER heard that legal does not equal moral?  don't some of these people claim to believe in a higher authority?  lots of things were temporarily legal in the course of human history that were later repented and repealed.  anyone who learned history from a real school knows this!

    in fact, isn't it the right wing who is always harping on that?  isn't it the wingnuts who scream the loudest about how they should be able to disobey directives that pronounced legal that they believe to be immoral?  pharmacists who don't want to fill prescriptions for the morning after pill?  justices of the peace who don't want to sign marriage licenses for same sex couples?  even people who have lost their jobs rather than be forced to work on their religious holidays?

    the sickest and saddest thing of all is that a great many otherwise decent young people have been so thoroughly corrupted by unthinking authoritarianism that they would make Dick Cheney and John Yoo the highest moral authority in their lives.  THAT is so twisted as to be beyond my understanding.

    When the scales fall from their eyes and they realize what they have done it will be very hard for them to live with it for the rest of their lives.  That psychological damage may not be felt for a long while, but when it does hit, the depth of the betrayal will be devastating to some of them.  There are guys still having nightmares and flashbacks and losing sleep over things they did in previous wars.  I just hope the current troops get adequate mental health care when the time comes.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    President Obama. Still a thrill to see that in print.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:29:20 PM PDT

    •  Excellent point! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, Matt Z

      in fact, isn't it the right wing who is always harping on that?  isn't it the wingnuts who scream the loudest about how they should be able to disobey directives that pronounced legal that they believe to be immoral?  pharmacists who don't want to fill prescriptions for the morning after pill?  justices of the peace who don't want to sign marriage licenses for same sex couples?  even people who have lost their jobs rather than be forced to work on their religious holidays?

      A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

      by bushondrugs on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:34:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hear ya. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      It's a question of of where the values a society follows comes from.

      The main problem with joining the Military or police is that to a large extent you must abandon your personal code of morals and enforce that of your superiors.  For those institutions to work as they should, this is a necessary thing.  It is not reasonable to expect soldiers and police to do otherwise with any degree of regularity.  

      Later on, of course, one's own values reassert themselves......

      They see me trollin'. They hatin'

      by obnoxiotheclown on Sun May 24, 2009 at 11:28:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't confuse mental illness with evil (6+ / 0-)

    Dick Cheney and his ilk are flat evil, he has no conscience. That may make him a psychopath but he's not mentally ill. He's demonic. The root of the demonic is to make yourself into God, with the power of life and death over others.

    •  3 categories: Nervous, Sick, and Crazy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, Ms Citizen, huntergeo

      I've heard mental disturbances/illness divided into those three categories.  
      "Nervous" would include neurotic behavior like compulsiveness.  
      "Crazy" takes in schizophrenia, and most of the included conditions can be considered true illnesses since a lot of the conditions respond to drugs.  
      "Sick" includes sociopaths -- people with no conscience, or some other "gap in their superego".  There doesn't seem to be any treatment.  Certainly no medicine helps.  A mild "gap in the superego" can make someone a good general, if the 'gap' involves not being hesitant to send soldiers to their death, and if it's accompanied by a strong grasp of the 'greater good' the death of those soldiers would advance.

      We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

      by david78209 on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:04:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Different sorts of truth (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WI Dem, bushondrugs

    There is legal truth, and scientific truth, and moral truth, and historical truth, and maybe others.

    We need to persuade the majority of the American people of the immorality of torture. The legal and historical precedents are slam dunks. But we have to keep them from thinking "Big Dick broke the law, yes, but he had a good reason so it was OK".

    Smiting trolls on the tubes since 1977!

    by blue aardvark on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:33:41 PM PDT

    •  The morality of truth is such a quagmire to get (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      stuck in because then you have to agree on whose morality you are going to use.  We need to approach this from a scientific perspective and not an emotional one.

      Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

      by uc booker on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:35:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is no science (0+ / 0-)

        I am unaware of an experiment that distinguishes between harsh tactics and torture.

        Smiting trolls on the tubes since 1977!

        by blue aardvark on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:36:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you would rather make an emotional plea? (0+ / 0-)

          I'm just asking, trying to figure out where you are coming from...

          Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

          by uc booker on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:39:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Morality != emotion (0+ / 0-)

            It is necessary to recognize the limitations of science as a tool. Science cannot answer the question "Is torture bad?" and does not pretend that it can.

            A moral argument does ultimately rest upon assumptions; faith, if you will. Ironically, so does a scientific argument - Euclid's postulates are rather fundamental and admittedly unproven and unprovable.

            We need to argue from the shared values of all human beings: that human life has dignity, that causing pain for its own sake is wrong, that a lie is not as good as the truth.

            Smiting trolls on the tubes since 1977!

            by blue aardvark on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:08:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Faith = emotion = morality Si (0+ / 0-)

              As you can probably tell, I have a lot of problems with faith, so the "shared values of all human beings" statement already has my head going off like a pinball machine.  Who's faith? Which faith? I'm an Atheist. Does that mean I have no faith?  To me, faith is the absence of truth.  Where is the common ground?

              Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

              by uc booker on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:21:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're not just an atheist, though (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                uc booker

                I was raised an atheist, and I know the whole "I have values but I don't know how or why" bit Pete Townsend sings about.

                Everyone thinks that people have only one religion. That's silly. Most people take bits and pieces from dozens of places and don't even realize they're doing it.

                So, if I ask you, "Why is torture wrong?" I'll bet you've got an answer. If I asked a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Sikh, an agnostic, and so on, I'd get a whole bunch of answers, but they would share some common points. Those are the common values.

                Now, this leads dangerously close to Hegel and the Inner Law. Which would divert me from my point. My point is that we need to convince the population of the US that what Cheney did was morally wrong, and we can do this by appealing to the ideals that most human beings (evidently not including Dick) share.

                Smiting trolls on the tubes since 1977!

                by blue aardvark on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:36:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Olay, that's kind of what I thought. I was just (0+ / 0-)

                  checking.  I am caring for my ailing grandmother and I am finding that when I think we are on the same page that we aren't even in the same book.  I just like asking annoying questions for clarification.  And, the Si is just Spanish for yes.

                  Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

                  by uc booker on Sat May 23, 2009 at 07:05:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Question (0+ / 0-)

                Is "Si" in your title Scientific Units?

                Smiting trolls on the tubes since 1977!

                by blue aardvark on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:37:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder (0+ / 0-)

    if the woman who trained with Tony and eventually killed herself, actually did kill herself...or if she was silenced by assasination.  We will never know.  But the idea fits very neatly in the draconian reality of those who ordered them to torture.  

    Efectus nihil profundus sub pensus est

    by Riddlebaugh on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:35:28 PM PDT

  •  Thaks, Devilstower (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ms Citizen, bushondrugs, googleimage

    It's very reassuring to know there are plenty of others out there whose moral compass reads the same as mine on this issue.

    We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

    by david78209 on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:36:03 PM PDT

  •  Torture is nasty but it's not crazy. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Torture has been a tool of control for as long as humans have been social animals. Inflicting pain to get others to do what you want occurs all the way up the animal kingdom to humans.

    •  They used torture during the Inquisition to get (5+ / 0-)

      people to say what they wanted them to say, not to get the truth.  

      Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

      by uc booker on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:38:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. It's not "crazy". It works. (0+ / 0-)

        It's like saying violence is "mental illness".  That's crazy, it works great.

        •  But, it didn't work. They did not get the truth, (0+ / 0-)

          they got the answers from the tortured people that they wanted, basically they got the tortured to confess to crimes they did not commmit so they could kill them.  After enough torturing, death can be the only escape, which is what happened during the Inquisition.

          Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

          by uc booker on Sat May 23, 2009 at 07:09:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps insanity is more ubiquitous (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bill White, bushondrugs, uc booker

      than you think.

      Blagojevich/Palin '12.

      by fou on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:41:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You'd be crazy to think so. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        •  You'd be crazy NOT to think so (0+ / 0-)

          Look at the popularity of "24" for example.

          "Seeing our planet as a whole, enables one to see our planet as a whole" - Tad Daley

          by Bill White on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:44:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "24" is a TV fiction as is torture as "illness" (0+ / 0-)

            Torture is not useful for getting accurate, timely information out of people as FBI interrogator Ali Soufan testified.

            But that is not why people torture.

            Torture can get US service men to make statements on TV that the North Vietnamese wanted them to make.

            Torture can get Iraqis and Afghans to make statements that Dick Cheney wants them to make.

            Torture can make people afraid and silence them from taking political or other actions that governments from China to Burma to the US don't want them to take.

            •  Yep, which is why the popularity of "24" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Matt Z, Ms Citizen

              reveals that there are more crazy Americans out here than we might otherwise think there are.

              Therefore, we need to repeat calmly, slowly and endlessly most everything you describe in your above comment and not assume that most Americans "get it"

              "Seeing our planet as a whole, enables one to see our planet as a whole" - Tad Daley

              by Bill White on Sat May 23, 2009 at 07:19:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  As crazy as "Star Trek" or any other fiction. (0+ / 0-)

                "Star Trek" (in which torture is central to the story) is way more fictional than "24". Are the millions who go see the "Star Trek" movie mentally ill? They would be by your definition.

    •  Gratuitous sadism IS a mental illness. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      And now, Cheney has this inexplicable compulsion to go to the airwaves to relive his crimes, over and over, as if he is worshipping torture, not just defending it.  His behavior is utterly pathological.

      A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

      by bushondrugs on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:39:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Torture is typically very purpose driven. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Cheney wanted confessions to provide backup for his claim of a 911/Iraq connection. So he tortured people knowing that if you torture people you can get them to say whatever you want.

        In Cheney's case the failure was no matter what he got people to say under torture, there were no WMD's and no real evidence of any 911/Iraq connection.

        Mexican drug cartles for example torture people to make others afraid of getting tortured in they cross them. Very logical, very pragmatic behavior.

        Calling torture mental illness is disingenuous and pointless especially to the current debate.

        •  Ordering the same act 183 times doesn't sound (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          very logical or pragmatic to me.  Just sick.

          A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

          by bushondrugs on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:55:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I submit that (0+ / 0-)

          what you call 'failure' wasn't a failure at all.  In fact, Cheney executed his plan flawlessly.  He didn't give a shit whether there were weapons or not.  He just needed the 'intel' to justify invasion so he could control the oil fields and profit handsomely from no bid contracts.

          He effectively hijacked our armed forces and turned them into a supplemental mercenary army.  

          Game. Set. Match.

          Blagojevich/Palin '12.

          by fou on Sat May 23, 2009 at 08:49:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Mr. Cheney, watch your back... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    rotten apples don't fall far from the rotten apple tree...

  •  For the record, we are approaching the moment (4+ / 0-)

    where we need to expand this discussion beyond what Dick Cheney said and what Dick Cheney asserts...

    As I have written before, Democrats are slowly but surely making themselves complicit.

    Cheney is only one man.  He is not omnipotent.  

    What steps have been taken by his opposition, on either side of the aisle?

    They voted for a war.
    They voted for the Patriot Act.
    They voted for the MCA.
    They voted for retroactive immunity and changing FISA.
    They voted against closing Gitmo (although they can reverse themselves)
    They are debating the advocacy of torture.
    They are advocating indefinite detention.
    They refuse to prosecute anyone involved in the commission of known criminal acts.

    At some point, you can't continue to just blame a former vice president.  Everyone who is not speaking out against this, and not willing to investigate is essentially for torture.  We are setting the precedent of torture being acceptable as long as the President is for it.  Our current President is not, but Barack Obama will not always be President.

    I like how Andy Serwer put it (He was speaking on civil liberties in general, but the point is applicable).

    The fact is that there is no middle ground when it comes to due process. With his soaring and sincere rhetoric, the president has done an incredible job of selling his kinder, gentler War on Terror, and ultimately, the American people will likely have his back, if only because they trust him. In a sense, Barack Obama may be far more dangerous than George W. Bush when it comes to violating our civil liberties; where the American people feared the excesses of Bush, they trust wholly in the sincerity of Barack Obama. At least for now.

    "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." - President Barack Obama, April 5, 2009

    by justmy2 on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:40:27 PM PDT

    •  Until we start holding people accountable for (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      justmy2, bmj

      torturing others, we have no business in the who said what game.  We are condoning it by omission.

      Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

      by uc booker on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:42:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  isn't that just a variation on the theme (0+ / 0-)

      the Republicans have been playing this last week with Nancy Pelosi?

      No, I refuse to be distracted by arguments like that. The torture policy makers are the leaders of the Bush administration, the primary guilt and responsibility is theirs, no matter what anyone else does or does not do afterwards.

      •  You could make the argument that it is close (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I get it.  

        However, why is no action being taken to address the issue you espouse.  You call them the torture policy makers.  Ok, if torture is illegal, why is there even a debate.  

        When we take holding any politician accountable off the table, we create an environment where the we will neither address the torture issue successfully or hold the primary culprits accountable?

        Democrats actions are speaking pretty loudly right now.  The Bush/Cheney crime family is still first on the agenda.  But that doesn't mean Democrats are simply spectators in this turning point for our country.

        It is time for action and the Democratic record is not very strong.

        "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." - President Barack Obama, April 5, 2009

        by justmy2 on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:11:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Zimbardo Prison Experiment, Anyone? (3+ / 0-)
  •  who made the decision that (6+ / 0-)

    the Geneva Conventions don't apply  in Iraq? That individual needs to be brought before a court of justice. This individual or group of individuals need to be made an example of. The audacity of casually side stepping an accord that was reached by an international agreement in the 1920's of which the United States was a key signatory, based on the whim of some maniacal power hungry cadre of psychopaths has got be put before the nation, so that a lesson lasting generations can be taught.

    •  His name was George W. Bush (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      behan, bushondrugs

      You may have heard of him.

      "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." - President Barack Obama, April 5, 2009

      by justmy2 on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:12:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  While he should be held accountable, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ms Citizen

        I think he might not have understood that there was a convention held in Geneva, Switzerland to address the harsh treatment prisoners of war witnessed in World War One. "Geneva? Switzerland? Isn't that where that cute little Swiss Miss girl on the cocoa box comes from?" Darf Cheney and Rumsfield are the two more sinister characters that need jusitice(ing.)

  •  It WAS a few rotten apples. (0+ / 0-)

    Those rotten apples being Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush etc.

    My relationship with God is defined not by religion and ritual, but by attitude and action.

    by World Citizen on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:44:56 PM PDT

  •  Quoting (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Thinking Fella, Matt Z, bushondrugs

    The late and missed Chris Penn in the Tarantino flick Resevoir Dogs,,'if you beat this fucker hard enough he'll tell you he started the Chicago fire,But that dont necessarily make it fucking so'!

  •  The Perfect Post leading into... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Memorial Day weekend. I know for those living in a war zone, there are no winners. I hope that all those tortured souls can find peace in their lifetime.

  •  even america's biggest dick knows its torture (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bushondrugs, googleimage

    ...that's why he's sent his daughter out to help save him because he's afraid of prosecutions.

    Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:51:45 PM PDT

  •  The media pimps these positions (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lucysdad, justmy2

    because a large segment of it is itself mentally ill. Examples of what I mean by how what much of the media does is a form of mental illnes:

    --Willfully lying about or mischaracterizing the stated positions of this or that politician or public figure in order to create fake controversy or push a false narrative.

    --Joking around with, kissing up to and promoting a jovial and friendly environment around repulsive cretins like Limbaugh, Cheney or Gingrich, a la Morning Joe.

    --Creating the impression that there's a legitimate debate about issues on which there is no legitimate debate, such as global warming or evolution, by employing a "He said She said" frame and treating both sides with equal legitimacy.

    And so on. When you do this for a living on a daily basis even though you and your bosses and colleagues clearly know better, then you are one sick fuck who needs some serious therapy. Of course, I'm sure that a lot of these people excuse their behavior by telling themselves that everybody does it, that it's no big deal because everyone can see right through it and know that it's all just a game, and that it's all just fun and we shouldn't take them too seriously. Which itself is a kind of mental illness, albeit one that is pervasive in our society.

    We are a childish, self-absorbed, narcissistic, shallow and stupid society, which is both the cause and effect of this brand of sensationalistic faux journalism.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president!" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:56:56 PM PDT

  •  Excellent diary, DT. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bkamr, bushondrugs

    I wish we could somehow get this to go viral.

    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

    by beemerr90s on Sat May 23, 2009 at 05:59:00 PM PDT

  •  Torture "debate" really shows amorality (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bkamr, bushondrugs, Lady Libertine

    of corporate media.

  •  not mental illness, its criminal (0+ / 0-)

    I understand literary license, and its a strong statement, but it is not mental illness. (Geez, don't give them an "out"!) The Torture 13 were not mentally incompetent, although they were incompetent in regular old ways.

    Favoring the use torture for any reason or in any form is ridiculous, I might even say deranged, but basically it's not debatable: torture is illegal.

    We need to move forward from that "debate" and head for investigations and prosecutions of those found to be responsible and culpable.

    Buy the ticket, take the ride. ~HST

    by Lady Libertine on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:04:16 PM PDT

  •  I think we may need to begin talking about a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ms Citizen, Lady Libertine

    march on DC for what we want.

    Close Gitmo
    Health care single payer option
    Arrest torturers
    No more bailouts for Wall St. vs. Main St.
    Green energy policies
    Education funding not fads!

    "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him. Mark 12:17

    by bkamr on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:06:09 PM PDT

  •  Those Who Refused To Torture Are Heros (4+ / 0-)

    Those who walked away from torturing should be given medals.  They understood what it was to honor what the US stands for and to honor the geneva convention.

  •  This would make a nice sig line (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    favoring the use of torture is not a political position, it's a mental illness.

    My dog can bark like a Congressman, fetch like an aide, beg like a press secretary, and play dead like a receptionist when the phone rings.

    by CTMET on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:09:36 PM PDT

  •  Torture works... (0+ / 0-)

    .. just ask John McCain.  He gave them the full line up of the Yankees (or whatever it was.. sorry.. I'm European) when subjected to harsh interrogation when asking about his colleagues ...

    The ones interrogating got information.......

    .... at least some kinda information....

    Torture works?

  •  Torture Trials Framing Now on Dkosopedia (0+ / 0-)

    I've opened a new page on Dkosopedia to capture framing around the issue of trials for those in the Bush Administration that led us down torture lane. The page is Framed: Prosecuting Officials for Crimes and you access it by looking for the "Projects" section on the main page. Under "Framing" click on the Practical Frames link and then on 1.4.14 Prosecuting Officials for Crimes. You will get the description of the page and a link to the page.

    As with all Dkosopedia content, this is a work in progress and please feel free to add any links or content you think is appropriate.

  •  also (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Red Bean

    Detention without a trial is also torture.

  •  Didn't the Nazis (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, bushondrugs

    have their own private "stress laboratories"???  Criminy.

  •  Only way Cheney could walk now is to finger Bush (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, Matt Z, bushondrugs

    Cheney is working hard to change the subject from prosecution of obvious violations of Federal Laws hoping that he can continue his smoke screen about Torture Being Debatable.

    Torture was Never Debatable.  It always was a Federal Capital Crime with penalties of 20 years to life OR  the death penalty if the prisoner dies.  President Reagan signed it into law.

    Cheney has a problem.  His head is on the block.  Bush will let him swing before Bush will take responsibility for violating Federal Law.  

    Cheney thinks he can use the appointee lawyers effort to portray their version of torture as "not torture" but this is but a dream.  Only Congress can change Federal Laws and Cheney and Bush have really rubbed Congress's nose in the dirt for eight long years.  Time for payback, eh?

    Only way Cheney could walk is to finger Bush.

    If you care about having our Federal Laws enforced against political violators as well as pot users and if you care about having our Constitution and our own Rights protected against out of control officials

    Calling for a Special Prosecutor
    for all who Tortured In Our Name


    over 250,000 signed
    Join us and call yourself a Patriot


  •  What torture does to its victims might not be as (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, Matt Z, bushondrugs

    bad as what it does to its perpetrators.

    "Seeing our planet as a whole, enables one to see our planet as a whole" - Tad Daley

    by Bill White on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:43:26 PM PDT

  •  you say (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    American's biggest Dick.

    Probably the opposite is true.  That would explain a lot...

  •  It is easy to be Dick Cheney and ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, BaritoneWoman

    have people ordered to do things that you are not required to do.  You don't hear the screams, you don't have the sleepless nights, you are sanitized from your own dirty business.  In essence you, like many tyrants, stay away from the blood. Not only that, but Cheney (as was pointed out by the former Governor of Minnesota,Jesse Ventura, was too busy to be bothered with actual service to his country.  Again he avoided the blood and gore and left it to somebody else.

    This man is not Darth Vader, he is (as I believe George Lucas has said)the Emperor, Darth Vader's boss.  

  •  Dr. Philip "Hi, I'm Phil Zimbardo" Zimbardo has (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    a number of interesting writings on bad trees vs. bad apples.

    Respect your past. Don't live it. -- Philip Zimbardo

    by Shaviv on Sat May 23, 2009 at 06:59:21 PM PDT

  •  Liz and Dick's argument that water-boarding (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, Matt Z, Ms Citizen

    isn't torture is utterly specious and irrational as is the argument that it 'works'.  Water torture is judged in at least three dimensions to be torture without any doubt.  

    A. Historically:  Water-torture most proficially came about during the Spanish Inquisition.  Where it was used to illicit FALSE CONFESSIONS from "heretics" and "witches".  That is it's purpose.  False confessions.  Now unless Liz and Dick would like to maintain that, in fact, the Catholic Inquisitors were instead trying to obtain accurate and truthful information about various sundry necromantic and wizardly pursuits.  Same thing goes for it's use in N. Korea, Vietnam, Kamher Rouge.  It was contemporaneously and then historically considered torture and always used to get false confessions.  To say that it is an effective way to get accurate, timely and trutly information out of a detainee would be like trying to say that hunting birds by going out to a field, blindfolded, with a bag over your head, spinning around until you were completely dizzy and then discharging yoru weapon in a random direction "works".  Is it possible you might hit a bird?  Yes.  Are you more likely to hit nothing (or your friend in the face)? Duh!

    B. Legally:  I think it is pretty well established by post WWII trials where we tried and convicted (and even executed) Japanese for water-torturing our US soldiers that the legal precident is pretty clear that water-boarding is torture.  Liz's argument that "well they did more than just water-board our soldiers" is just idiotic given that the designed by CIA sponsored behavioural psychologist regiment of stress positions, sensory and sleep depravation, and sexual humiliation were all just warm ups for when we water-boarded our detainees.

    C. Mechanically:  Those who have undergone water-boarding ... from skeptical journalists to SERE students all agree that it is torture.  For pete sakes, SERE school is designed to basically torture our soldiers under 'controlled' conditions to familiarize them with what they may face.

    Which brings me to my larger point.  Liz and Dick are giving their opinions on this and the media and many duped by it actually give them not only a platform but credence.  On all of the above facets to the debate their opinions are wholy and utterly unqualified and irrelevant.  Did I miss somewhere that Liz is an emeninent and leading Historian?  Has it simply slipped my mind that she is a leading human rights or international legal scholar?  And of course only those who have not been water-boarded persist in the argument that it isn't mechanically torture.  And I am not even factoring in that neither of them are exactly unbiased sources without what one might kindly call "conflicts of interest".  

    SO given all of this someone please explain why Liz and Dick are on the FUCKING TV 5 times a day and asked for their 'opinions'?  Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and most of them are full of shit.  Ok, sorry to end on such a digression.  How about I history it up a bit.

    The torturer throws over his mouth and nostrils a thing cloath, so that he is scarcely able to breathe thro' them, and in the mean while a small stream of water like a thread, not drop by drop, falls from on high, upon the mouth of the person lying in this miserable condition, and so easily sinks down the thin cloath to the bottom of his throat, so that there is no possilbity of breathing, his mouth being stopped with water and his nostrils with the cloath, so that the poor wretch is in the same agony as persons ready to die, and breathing out there last.  Wehn this cloath is drawn out of hsi throat, as it often is, so that he may answer to the questions, it is all wet with water and blood, and is like pulling his bowels through his mouth.  - Ernestus Eremundus Frisius (17th century dutch chronicler)


    "Question d'leau"; wood engraving after Rene de Moraine (b. 1816), illustration from "Mysteres de l'Inquisition" by M.V. de Fereal 1846.

    Everything old is new again I guess.

    No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith. - Thomas Paine (-5.75, -4.65)

    by whoisjohngalt on Sat May 23, 2009 at 07:08:36 PM PDT

  •  Why can't we have Cheney debate Rick, in the .... (0+ / 0-)

    same room?  What is Dicky afraid of?

  •  This makes me sick (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, Ms Citizen, halef

    ...And this guy, who was very guilty, was cooperating, giving us actual intelligence information. What happened was that the CIA came in, asked if they could use more enhanced interrogation techniques on the individual and through rendition took him to a foreign country. They utilized those techniques. At first he clammed up completely, and then ultimately he linked al-Qaeda to Iraq and claimed that Iraq had trained al-Qaeda in weapons of mass destruction, which we now know to be completely false information and some would speculate sparked the war.

    Someone please remind me why Dick Cheney is allowed to challenge our President on national TV to torture people after the above took place, immune to any real threat of prosecution or even a wrist slap.  Meanwhile we had Clinton impeached for sex.

    Government for the people, by the people

    by axel000 on Sat May 23, 2009 at 08:36:55 PM PDT

  •  We put our service people (0+ / 0-)

    through all sorts of shit, but godforbid you have a Guatanamo detainee housed in a maximum security prison somewhere in your state.

    How is that seen as patriotic for chrissakes?

  •  Thank you. Thank you. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, Ms Citizen, possodent, halef

    I'm frankly sick of the slack given to folks who discuss this as though it is open to discussion. I'm sick of the sugar coating, the outright lies and the euphemisms, like "enhanced interrogation techiniques" and "water boarding." The first is torture and the second is water torture.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Sat May 23, 2009 at 08:54:34 PM PDT

  •  It's the tree... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Dick Cheney engaged in a classic "blame the little guy" tactic. He sat quietly while privates, corporals, specialists were tried and convicted of performing exactly those types of actions that he had pushed for so hard.

    That makes him a chicken-s#it.  But no ordinary chicken-s#it.  One who should be in prison for the rest of his life.

  •  Most excellent diary!! (0+ / 0-)

    Thank you for writing this, it is one of the best diaries on torture that I have read.

    Take a look at you and me, are we to blind to see? Or do we simply turn our heads and look the other way? - Elvis Presley "In the Ghetto"

    by WI Dem on Sun May 24, 2009 at 04:43:44 AM PDT

  •  "a few rotten apples", Dick? (0+ / 0-)

    Cheney denied there was any link between the Bush administration’s interrogation policies and the abuse of detainees at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib jail, which he blamed on "a few sadistic guards." But a bipartisan Senate Armed Services report in December traced the abuses at Abu Ghraib to approval of the techniques by senior Bush officials, including former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.

    Intel experts: Dick Cheney was wrong about Bush administration moves

    This time it's personal.

    by apostrophe on Sun May 24, 2009 at 06:34:35 AM PDT

  •  The effect of all of this (0+ / 0-)

    is that the American people will come to accept torture practiced by their government as an acceptable thing.

    Sooner or later, some president or other will have the bright idea to use these tactics against domestic political opponents.  Had this debate not already occurred in the here and now, the reaction of the average future citizen would likely have involved a good deal of rioting.  As it stands, that future president's tactics will likely not be considered particularly upsetting.

    Planned or not, this is what is happening.

    They see me trollin'. They hatin'

    by obnoxiotheclown on Sun May 24, 2009 at 11:38:40 AM PDT

  •  Investigation Please. (0+ / 0-)

    What is there to worry about? If Cheney is right, then nothing will happen to him anyways. I thought that was the point of an investigation. If you are innocent, then leak your innocence if you have the ability to do so. I believe he should be waterboarded into admitting that waterboarding is torture, and then charge him with torture when he admits it. While you are at it, get him to admit that he had planned 9/11. I don’t believe he did, but getting him to admit it would show the invalidity of the waterboarding info. This is so sickening that we (as a country) have tortured people and don’t care enough to investigate. The world will remember us for what we do when human rights are violated, we must stand up to save our reputation. Shut your mouth Cheney, you don't speak for me or anyone I know. I definately dont want to be seen anywhere outside the U.S. with the world thinking that I support you or anything that you support.

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