Skip to main content

Dave Weigel does some additional number crunching of our Birther poll:

According to Del Ali of Research 2000, if you excluded those people from the poll—if you look only at white voters in the South—the number of people who doubt Obama’s citizenship is  higher than the 47 percent figure that has grabbed headlines today. "There was no deviation in the number of black, Hispanic, and other voters from one region of the country to another," Ali told TWI. In the South, like everywhere else, the vast majority of non-white voters said that Obama was born in the United States; 97 percent of black voters, 87 percent of Hispanic voters, and 88 percent of other minorities. The extremely low overall percentage? That’s due to white Southerners, who dragged down the average with an extremely high level of doubt about Obama.

So what proportion of Southern whites doubt that Obama is an American citizen? While Ali did not release the racial breakdowns for the the South, and cautioned that the margin of error in the smaller sample of 720 people would be larger than the national margin of error (2 percent), the percent of white Southern voters may be higher than 70 percent. More than 30 percent of the people polled in the South were non-white, and very few of them told pollsters that they had questions about Obama’s citizenship. In order for white voters to drive the South’s "don’t know" number to 30 percent and it’s "born outside the United States" number to 23 percent, as many as three-quarters of Southern whites told pollsters that they didn’t know where Obama was born.

Holy freakin' crap.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:32 AM PDT.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

    •  Seriously (9+ / 0-)

      But we should stop picking on the south, you know. There are so many cruel things one could say, but none would actually help.

      But don't forget that most men without property would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich, than face the reality of being poor. (1776)

      by banjolele on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:37:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

        •  Home schooling? (34+ / 0-)

          After court ordered school integration, many white communities and churches started their own private schools. The trend now is home schooling and church schooling for anti-science, ant-critical thinking, and suspicion of strangers.

          ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

          by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:45:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There is clearly a problem with the white south (17+ / 0-)

            Has been for a VERY long time.

            Ok, so I read the polls.

            by andgarden on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:51:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes! And if we don't stop it they win again! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LynChi

              They are patient and they have a plan... have you ever noticed that they all stand together like they were glued. They only need one front man because they all say the same thing and stick to the plan. Please read my diary about what they are doing... How the republicans are using us against us and why they may win doing it. I hope to post it by Monday or before.

            •  Southern Exceptionalism is alive and well (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              adrianrf, JC from IA

              Remember this D-Kos poll?

              QUESTION: Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of the city of New York?
                               FAV   UNFAV  NO OPINION
              ALL             66       26         8
              DEM            72        2          6
              REP             59       35         6
              IND             65       26         9
              OTH/REF      62       28       10
              NORTHEAST 80       15         5
              SOUTH        46       44        10
              MIDWEST    72       20          8
              WEST          73       18          9

              Insurance, Oil, Banking, and Defense corporations all have a substantial equity positions in what's supposed to be our Congress.

              by Lefty Coaster on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:29:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Call it what it is: (31+ / 0-)

            Clan indoctrination.  Tribal training.  Building a narrowly circumscribed worldview of unquestioning obedience to established authority, unquestioning acceptance of established religious and social constructs, unquestioning fear and contempt of outsiders and their diseased foreign ways and ideas.

            This is, of course, a broadbrush analysis which does not credit the many people in the South who have escaped or freed themselves of the stereotypes.  But the massively growing body of evidence makes it clear that their numbers are swamped by the hordes trapped in tribal insularity.

            Dude, your statistical average, which was already in the toilet, just took a plunge into the Earth's mantle. ~ iampunha

            by ETF on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:53:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm sure Wile E. Coyote was homeschooled, too. (7+ / 0-)

              For the rest of them, "The Hills Have Eyes" was a documentary.

            •  More like "Klan" indoctrination. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Karma for All, Sparkys Dad, ETF
            •  or stone racism (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ssgbryan, Karma for All, math4barack

              Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

              by Tuffie on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:08:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  They honestly believe, and use "honestly" only to (9+ / 0-)

              indicate that they are completely brainwashed into believing, that black people purposely oppress themselves to get over due to the fact that their race is "lazy"  and that the white people are the victims.  Not kidding, I wish I was.  

            •  No, you are EXACTLY right. But you left out one (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              descartes11, jayskew, annominous

              thing. How they are using us against us to win. Their whole plan is divide and conquer and it is working.

              •  They Are Geographically Concentrated In The (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tmo, gogol, math4barack, ETF

                South and their ability to divide us seems very limited.  They seem to speak and hear English differently than most others.

                If less than 10% of the population in all other regions are not so insular, it's more likely that they'll only succeed in uniting others against their woldview.

            •  Don't be obsessed with what is (4+ / 0-)

              a clear minority in this teeny little failed state of South Carolina.

              Once again, Kos picks out a glaring stat, names a few reasons why the stat is so, and then we go on yakking about how pitiful the South is.

              Give me a break. An overwhelming majority of people down here bring their kids to public schools, and if there is a significant gap between education and home life quality, it's usually because both parents are working their asses off trying to afford meager rent and groceries on their weenie southern salaries.

              The South has far to go to be a progressive region, but we can't do anything about it if we're taking a minority of people and broadcasting their folkways across a much wider body of people.

              "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

              by sapper on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:37:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What about "as many as three-quarters of Southern (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Karma for All, bently, adrianrf

                whites" is a minority?

                I appreciate the attempt to be reasonable about this, but frankly, there isn't any way to be reasonable about this.

                The idea that 75% of southern whites are not sure where our black President was born is nothing short of a societal emergency.

                •  Oh, phooey! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Paper Cup, jayskew

                  Look, here is how it goes in the south.  Everyone here has loud mouthed idiot relations or neighbors and over the years anyone who wants any peace at all has decided that the best way to deal with their obnoxious opinions is to simply say you have no opinion or you don't know anything about it.  

                  It is almost a reflex as a way to deflect any conversation that would make Uncle Berl or Jim Bob down at the station froth at the mouth if they ever heard that you said anything contrary.  I'm talking about generations of habit here dating from back when it was probably even dangerous to contradict them.  It is a habit by the way that I have gone out of my way to break and all of my idiot relations and neighbors know how I think, but don't think it hasn't come at a cost.

                  I'm not saying that it is right and I'm not saying that it shouldn't change, but I am saying that it is simply not fair to assume that those who answered that they "didn't know" were really of the opinion that the President wasn't born in this country.  

                  •  You do realize that polling is private? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Coherent Viewpoint, adrianrf, ETF

                    It's not asked over the counter of a general store. People have no reason whatsoever to collude on faking what they believe.

                    I realize damn well how the social structure down here molds opinion. That doesn't mean that people don't believe it.

                    •  Yes, I do realize that polling is private. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Paper Cup, jayskew

                      I am saying that it has become a habit of thought, that is anything that is the least bit controversial with the "social structure" becomes something one just doesn't think about or have an opinion on.  The mind just sort of slides past it.  Much safer that way.  It is hard to hide an opinion one really holds, it could come tumbling out under pressure.

                      •  You are really stretching. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        adrianrf, ETF

                        This is not like believing that chewing gum takes 7 years to pass through the digestive system. People are telling pollsters that they don't know whether or not the President of the United States constitutionally holds his office. That's shit that wars are fought over, not a common every-day urban legend.

                        •  No I'm not stretching (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Paper Cup, emsprater, jayskew

                          I am speaking from experience with people like that. A friend of my grandmother's was like that.  

                          "Lou," I'd say, "you don't think Berl is right about black people having tails, do you?"  

                          "I don't know."

                          "What do you mean you don't know?"

                          "I don't think about things like that."

                          But, it is not like believing that chewing gum takes 7 yaers to pass through the digestive system.  It is like not having any opinion at all on how long chewing gum takes to digest in order to avoid having to argue with anyone about it.  And it doesn't matter how important the issue is or whether wars could be fought over it or not, they can avoid having an opinion about it, believe me.  

                        •  I don't think so (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          pundette, jayskew

                          This is a discussion about what people tell pollsters - people they don't know who call them on the phone - in "polite society".  The bigger stretch is to think that people open up to pollsters and reveal with complete honesty what they really think.

                        •  sounds like pundette is speaking from experience (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          pundette

                          Same thing I see all the time.

                          "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

                          by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:22:09 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly. My husband was sent to (14+ / 0-)

            "private schools" in Mississippi (read: segregation only legal).  The funny thing is my in-laws are trying to get me to do the same thing with my son, they have a fund set up for when he is of school age and are hinting at him going to school in New York in private schools.  I seriously don't think they understand that I don't harbor their fear of black people (I think they think I'm being PC or something) and instead seek out multi-culturalism as a benefit.  They just can't fathom that people who are white (and I'm not really, I just pass for white as my dad's English) don't automatically want to get away from black people.  

            •  Great! But keep in mind that a lot of public (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tmo, missLotus, majcmb1, Paper Cup, jayskew

              schools in the south, the ones in rural areas, are sufficiently lacking in materials, supplies, buildings, and teacher quality. Further, for as moronic as school boards can be, rural area school boards are much, much worse.

              Rural private schools are even more threadbare. At least public schools have buses.

              I'm happy with the public schools in my area of the South, Columbia, SC. But they still are lacking. Our son is a special-needs kid, but there may not be adequate resources for him. We'll have to see about that.

              Good luck!

              "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

              by sapper on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:41:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  . (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tmo, LynChi, majcmb1, adrianrf

                My inlaws live in a new development away from and devoid of black people and send their kids to private schools.  The only time I see black people when we visit there is in the shopping mall near their town, and/or in restaurants where they are  clerks, chefs and waitresses.  My teenage kids were absolutely blown away at this.    

                Overheard conversation during last visit about a golf course:

                "I heard there were blacks at there"

                "Yeah, but they weren't bad blacks like the Jackson blacks."

                Just one glimpse into several thousand more offensive conversations I've overheard in Mississippi.  
                 

                •  from Wikipedia re: demographics of my inlaws home (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  adrianrf

                  town (Madison, MS)

                  As of the census[2] of 2000, there were 14,692 people, 5,189 households, and 4,249 families residing in the city. The population density was 1,090.0 people per square mile (420.8/km²). There were 5,316 housing units at an average density of 394.4/sq mi (152.3/km²). The racial makeup of the city was 93.23% White, 4.89% African American, 0.07% Native American, 1.20% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 0.18% from other races, and 0.40% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.69% of the population.

                  vs. Mississippi demographic (from Wiki)

                  As of 2008, Mississippi has an estimated population of 2,938,618[1]. Mississippi's population has the largest proportion of African Americans of any U.S. state, currently nearly 37%.

                  White flight is real.

          •  No (5+ / 0-)

            Home schooling is a nationwide phenomena, and I don't think it's a majority anywhere.

            In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference.

            by blue aardvark on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:16:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  That never, ever happens up north. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jayskew

            Not a lick. Never. All the home-schooled backwards kids -- who are really bright kids, by the way, are only in the South.

            You forget to mention that the home schooler crowd feeds on public school kids. And at night, they dance around the flames of the Great Government Funeral Pyre.

            "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

            by sapper on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:33:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh cmon (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              potty p, akeitz, adrianrf

              Give it a rest.  The evidence through polling is that there is most definitely something going on in the South.

              Throwing ideas back and forth about what is causing this is not anything to get in an uproar about.

              Silence is the enemy - Green Day 4330+ dead - Bring them home

              by Miss Blue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:37:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  seeing mostly stereotypes on here, not ideas (0+ / 0-)

                and when someone actually speaks from experience they get discounted.

                If the GOP wanted to divide dailykos they couldn't do it better than kos is doing by this constant harping on the south and doing nothing to stop the ensuing bullshit.

                So, kos, that was a fair question about how many white southerners say they're birthers (although as someone pointed out, southerners are also less likely to treat polls as private than you might think).

                Now ask the same thing about Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, and the other western states that conveniently get swamped by California, Oregon, and Washington in polls of "the west."

                Or just keep harping on one census region; it's your site; you can do what you want.

                The rest of you, how about helping us down here change the place.  Me, I spent this morning helping collect 125 signatures for OFA for health care, here in the deepest south.  5 white women, 3 black women, 1 black man, 1 white man.  Working together.

                What did you do?

                "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

                by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:32:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Ignorance is Strength (0+ / 0-)

            Insurance, Oil, Banking, and Defense corporations all have a substantial equity positions in what's supposed to be our Congress.

            by Lefty Coaster on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:29:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Not just home scholing (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LynChi, Paper Cup, adrianrf

            Public schools. School boards pushing for intelligent design in science classes, Bible instruction in schools, etc.

            We just had the science curriculum fight in Tx.; and now the State Board has appointed another committee to define new standards for social studies curricula. Half the committee believe the US was founded as a Christian nation and textbooks need to spell that out more clearly.

            "People who have what they want are fond of telling people who haven't what they want that they really don't want it." Ogden Nash (on universal health care?)

            by Catte Nappe on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:46:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The south is very rural, very undereducated (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tmo, LynChi, ssgbryan, math4barack, FarWestGirl

          and very well led by anyone who gives them hope of a better life than all the rusty cars in the front yard. I'm not kidding. I live here but I live in Charlotte which might as well be the moon compared to the rural (overwhelming) part of the south. Plus, the republicans know this and they are very adept at using this voting bloc, and they are using divide and conquer to beat us at a lot of legislation.

          •  "who gives them hope of a better life". How are w (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MKSinSA

            failing at that then? Because unless they are very rich that is not the republicans.

            Obama's skewed "clinging to guns and God" was about that very same issue. At other times he said it much better. It was about when you have lost so much or have so little and have been let down you need something to hold to. You recall hunting with your dad and grandfather...going to church with non and grandma...they bring meaning and comfort
            Republicans use those issues to divide but he felt Democrats needed to understand and respect the meaning of those traditions to people

            When he waged his loosing 2000 House primary race and how white he sounded and his white friends were used against him...one of his responses is how those racial divisions are how we all lost power. That poor blacks, white, Hispanics were encouraged to distrust each other instead of seeing their common needs and goals and working together to reach them...

            Somehow they identify with the political group that will benefit them the least but use the right code words?

            •  The Politics of the Crushed (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              adrianrf

              The greatest goal of the upper class is to convince the masses that they have no power (either practical or moral) to change any of the things that actually affect their physical condition - the things the rich want to control for profit.  However, the masses must be given something they are allowed to control.  Religion then steps in with a fantasy about rewards in the next world in exchange for being God's earthly Gestapo and enforcing His codification of existing tribal prejudices against each other.  The rich are fine with this, because they know it won't affect their operations.

              Or as they say about academic turf wars, the fighting is the most vicious because the stakes are so small.  All you have left is your pride, which is not rational.

            •  How are we failing them? 3 Words... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              adrianrf

              AM Talk Radio

          •  fast Internet access everywhere: like FDR and REA (0+ / 0-)

            If Obama brings fast Internet access to the rural south and everywhere else,
            it will be like FDR bringing electricity with the REA.  A generation of Democratic voters.

            We keep trying to explain this to OFA.  Maybe eventually they will listen.

            "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

            by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:33:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I'm glad I'm not travelling north anytime soon... (0+ / 0-)

          I'm from the south and I'd be embarrassed to admit it in front of others if I had to visit out of the region.

          "I agree with you now make me do it!" FDR

          by JC Dufresne on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:21:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Southern comfort (0+ / 0-)

          I too am Southerner born and raised in Memphis now living in Atlanta.  We Southern white folks aren't all crazy and stupid, but it is beginning to look like a lot of us are!

      •  Well, not the entire South, anyway. (29+ / 0-)

        Many of us here are mortified by what has been transpiring among this ignorant and/or defiant GOP minority.

        There are a lot of voters - and votes! - for Democrats and Obama here in the region. Problem is, the ones that aren't inclined to do so are on the war path, figuratively.

        So bash THEM mercilessly, I say. But not with a broad-brush "THE South," I ask.

        "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

        by pat208 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:50:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There are Bigots all Over (11+ / 0-)

          But as flies prefer a maggot ready area for their eggs, so do certain parts of America prefer bigot laying areas.

          •  Morons, too. Those Creationists in Pennsylvania. (14+ / 0-)

            And that intelligent design institute in Seattle.

            And so on.

            Morons are everywhere, too, and some are of the bigot sub-species.

            "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

            by pat208 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:57:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  more of them down South (9+ / 0-)

              Way, way more.  The proof has been in for decades.

              Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

              by Tuffie on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:09:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  okay, and? (16+ / 0-)

                born NC, raised in Seattle, live in the Hudson Valley. I tell you anytime you there are plenty of bigots and flatworlders anywhere you go. Their percentage of the demographics tends to raise as the level of education falls, but it is neither fair to say the South has a lock on this, nor is it helpful to continually bash the South. Granted the majority of the Repubs who believe or who claim to be 'unsure' about this drivel are located in the South... and? Shall we continue to castigate them for their ignorance, or should we try to plot a better course by pointing out the fallacy in logic and work to educate? Name calling and stereo typing based on region is not much better than color of skin, kids, and in and of itself has caused a pretty decent amount of hatred and animosity in the world. Rise above it.

                Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

                by potty p on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:15:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Agreed. And what's driving the problem (6+ / 0-)

                  is the lack of anything other than right wing media in some regions.  We have to introduce other voices, find ways of connecting to change this. Use antitrust laws on one level (radio), cultural connections on another.  

                  •  actually enforcing anti trust laws (5+ / 0-)

                    would be a good first step. how do you enforce a rule for people to get more than one side of the story though, that is the problem. History is filled with doctrines that preach intolerance and a concrete way of viewing the world. The RW media is just reinforcing a belief system that fits well with a patriarchal world view that has been continually challenged for the past... oh... 500 years or so. THey have found a great defense and that is to attack the credibility of all other voices, (liberals hate america and are traitors for questioning the invasion of Iraq, etc.) How do you fight that when their audience has been trained not to listen?

                    Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

                    by potty p on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:30:13 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It has to come from within. (5+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      potty p, majcmb1, Paper Cup, mcartri, adrianrf

                      That was the dem strategy for years, why the party ran southerners for president, and it worked pretty well with Bill Clinton.
                          The repubs have a death grip on the regional cultural memes and fight hard against the emergence of charismatic leaders with dissenting voices.  That's why they jumped all over the Dixie Chics.
                          Lately I've wondered if Fox, WABC, et al aren't reintroducing taboo racist memes in order to fight off any dem progress.  Obama is a huge threat to the southern strategy because Americans, who in general have a respectful and even affectionate attitude toward him and his family, are leaving their racism behind.  So the repubs are ramping up their attacks, issuing shocking racist statements on Fox, etc.  I can't believe the things I've heard in the last few weeks.  Of course, they back off and deny what they're doing, try to represent the statements as the fault of some individual talking head, like that jerk on Fox who talked about Swedish racial purity (I'm sure that discussion was scripted and rehearsed). Still, when a savvy businessman from CT rants about Obama's birth certificate (Lou Dobbs), you know something's up.
                          This strategy works better in the south, but I fear we're all being prepped as part of the repub strategy to promote race and class resentment.

                  •  high speed Internet everywhere (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mcartri, Cottagerose

                    Older people may not use it but their children will, and they'll see things they never heard on talk radio or saw on Fox News.

                    "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

                    by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:39:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I love your signature line!! It is brilliant! (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  potty p, LynChi, pat208, mcartri, adrianrf

                  Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

                  I voted for President Obama Nov. 4, 2008 and I strongly support him and his policies as he approaches the end of his first six months.

                  by Blogvirgin on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:58:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  David Gerrold ftw (0+ / 0-)

                    TY, but credit where credit is due. Always been a big fan of Gerrold, even when he is doing semi-Heinleinesque pro-war books for TOR. The comment seems apropos every now and again. Like now, for instance.

                    Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

                    by potty p on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:08:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  So what? What is the point of that? (6+ / 0-)

                Apart from elections, in which relative numbers matter, why does that even matter?

                It might not even be true unless you state it precisely. For example, John Kerry got more votes here in Georgia than he did in Wisconsin. But we happened to be outnumbered percentage-wise by the GOP.

                If you dismiss the absolute numbers, you're ignoring an enormous number of like-minded people.

                "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

                by pat208 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:24:05 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not sure there are more, (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pat208, majcmb1, mcartri, jayskew

                I just think the clusters are more evident.

                Born and raised below the Mason Dixon line was never called N*33** as much as when I moved to So Cal in the 1980's. Heard it on a too regular basis through the 80's and 90's.

                I was shocked until I realized a lot of So Cal Whites come from Oklahoma, Louisiana, Texas, Arkansas, Alabama, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah.

                I voted for President Obama Nov. 4, 2008 and I strongly support him and his policies as he approaches the end of his first six months.

                by Blogvirgin on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:56:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Agree. I bumped into one in Madison WI (7+ / 0-)

              He was entranced watching Fox News talking to a moron who was "going to lose his health care" because of that Socialist Obama and was going to cancel his AARP membership and was going to tell everyone at the VFW convention.

              Wait, Fox News is broadcast in WI and AL.  Is there a link here?

              The morons are getting their news from some place other than the New York Times.  Rush-nuts.

              Give every American a fair chance at the race of life - A. Lincoln and B. Obama

              by captainlaser on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:25:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Even in Madison (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                captainlaser, jayskew

                We moved here about 5 years ago, and assumed it was nothing but way liberal.  Actually, there is no shortage of people here in Dane County who bemoan the "liberal agenda" and all that, calling Madison 77 square miles surrounded by reality.

                Nonetheless, this area of Wisconsin seems to be on the low end of the unemployment scale, and is often listed as a great place to live.

                Nonetheless, the FOX News crowd bitches on.  

                dissent not only welcome... but encouraged

                by newfie53523 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:46:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  wingnuts are minority here in Seattle (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pat208, mcartri

              Evidence: Our congressman is Rep Jim McDermott. Bush's Shameful Veil of Secrecy

              ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

              by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:32:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  The South: the Excretory States of America (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mcartri, Sparkys Dad

            Perhaps what they really need a social spincterectomy?

            •  Thanks for tossing almost half the South... (13+ / 0-)

              ... in the same dumpster as the wacky GOP birthers. A lot of blacks and Latinos just got whacked by your broad brush, as well as millions of - gaps! - white Southerners who are bona fide Democrats.

              "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

              by pat208 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:25:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Don't be ridiculous: blacks and Latinos see (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mcartri, adrianrf

                themselves as Americans first, not Southerners.

                The southern whites who are bona fide Democrats see themselves the same way.

                It's the white trash, regardless of economic class, who insist on trademark protection on being "Southerners", or, more accurately if you can get them to admit it: Southrons.

                And to preempt your hand-wringing patronizing, I'm multi-generational Tennessean.

                •  it's not the "white trash" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mcartri

                  or, not just them. It's also lots of well-to-do, college educated, professional people. It's all of them.

                  •  think he means that anyone (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mcartri

                    who thinks this way is, in fact, trash.

                    Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

                    by potty p on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 12:53:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Maybe so, but that's misleading language. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mcartri, jayskew

                      These people are a serious problem for us, and for the country. It's important that we think and speak clearly about who they are, and understand the true nature of the problem.

                      Yes, I agree that people with these views are "trashy," but they're not all what people associate with the words "white trash," itself not a helpful phrase.

                      Highland Girl is absolutely right that this Southern phenomenon does include educated and professional whites. I find this even here in Atlanta, which has its share of progressive white Democrats as well. Quite a few of the business and other professionals who are originally from the South, who went to private schools growing up, and who went to very Southern universities have a very limited, insular view of the world. They hang out with each other, they consume the same media... and share the same narrow ideas. "Trash" they are not - they include the country club crowd, many small business owners, and a good chunk of the lawyers.

                      "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

                      by pat208 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:11:33 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  talked to one of those educated ones today (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mcartri

                        Asked him to sign up to support Obama's health plan.  He said no.  I asked him why.  He went on for about 5 minutes about how the government was going to send agents to everyone's homes to ask how we wanted to die and other such bullshit.  I asked him where he heard that.  "Everywhere!"  Where, exactly?  "Television!"  Fox News?  "Not just Fox News, CNN, other TV."

                        He was, by the way, a black man.  And not the only one who declined to sign for similar reasons.  Fortunately, a lot of other people, black and white, did sign.

                        I don't know if he was a birther.  I didn't ask him that.  Had better thigns to do than pursue trivia.

                        "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

                        by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:48:22 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Hand-wringing pre-emption fail! (7+ / 0-)

                  I don't care that you, too, are Southern. You're making overly broad claims that are not supported by the facts.  Including, now, some supreme knowledge about what blacks and Latinos, as an entire group, believe.

                  My black friends here in Atlanta sure do consider themselves "Southern," but that doesn't give me the right to generalize beyond that.

                  So here's the hand-wringing part you dread: This lazy, broad brush approach to "Southernism" lets too many people think the country's problems with racism and other moron-ery is connected to latitude and longitude, hence something THEY don't need to be thinking about or looking out for. In their own neighborhoods. Or their own souls.

                  And to preempt your hand-wringing patronizing, I'm multi-generational Tennessean.

                  "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

                  by pat208 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:10:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  my question is (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    pat208, Paper Cup, mcartri, jayskew

                    what is gained by hurling epitaphs and making false generalities at groups in this way, and how is this so far removed from actual racism?  Research 2000 gave us a clear picture of the scale of the problem, but calling it (or those who think differently) names isn't advancing the prospect of educating and/or otherwise dispelling blatant lies. Yeah, creepy and uncomfortable feelings maybe, but bigotry is alive and well all over; maybe it is even closer to you than you might think.

                    Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

                    by potty p on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 12:58:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Oh really? Explain this: (0+ / 0-)

                  "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

                  by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:42:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I'm starting to think Ohio is (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                joynow, mcartri, SherriG, jayskew

                a southern state.  I'm southern born and raised but spent several years of my adult life in Ohio.

                Lots and lots of segregation in Ohio.  Huge black communities off to themselves with loads of little towns full of white people only.

                They don't come right out and say it in public but it is understood quietly in living rooms across the state.

                It isn't just a southern thing.  Sometimes people are smart enough to answer the poll question the way they should.  It doesn't mean they aren't racist.

          •  Your Comment (0+ / 0-)

            says a great deal more about you than it says about the South.

            "Our long national nightmare is over. The great undoing has begun." SusanG

            by SherriG on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:22:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  maggots? (0+ / 0-)

            Perhaps protecting them as cockroaches and yourself  as a butterfly would be more appropriate.

               potty p, vgranucci, newfie53523, elliott, happymisanthropy, Sparkys Dad, NWTerriD, ETF, BonnieSchlitz  

            see above for more examples of butterflys.

            pffft.

            •  red herring (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mcartri, jayskew

              might be a better moniker there red.

              "there are bigots everywhere" got a rec because it is seems true. Doesn't seem macatri was intentionally calling anyone a maggot; he was, in fact, making an analogy, but I am sure you can see the difference between that, right? As for cockroaches, well that was your term as was butterflys [sic] I think we could work with the butterfly analogy, but I don't think that is really what you are after, and it doesn't work since maggots turn into flies and cockroaches, your addition, don't have a pupae state. try developing your ideas more fully to make your criticism more understandable and well developed else someone will think you are just... trollin'.

              Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

              by potty p on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 12:50:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Like cops in Boston or DC? (0+ / 0-)

            "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

            by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:37:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I would like to see demographics (9+ / 0-)

          Age, for one. Educational level for another. Maybe how far they've ever traveled from home.

          Older, less educated whites probably harbor a lot of resentment about their perceived loss of status. They've also had a lot of the race crap beaten into their heads since they were children - hard to get past that if you never go anywhere, never read anything, never interact with anybody outside your circle.

        •  But there are differences that allow this racism (7+ / 0-)

          to continue that need to be written about and bashed.  For one, only in the deep South do I see this prevalent attitude that my home town is Utopia.  I don't understand it.  People there are still in the same high school cliques in their 50's and 60's.  I know this happens elsewhere, but it is prevalent there, and the cliques are white adults, only.  

          As a result, even my husband, who studied his way into some kind of enlightenment on racism, get's markedly nervous and sweaty when we are in groups where black people outnumber white people.  There are real problems that are unique to the south.  I also know they're not going to change until some generations die there and the newer generations are shamed into moving beyond the idiocy.

          •  another way of looking at this (0+ / 0-)

            is the south lost BIG in the last election. Sure Obama is black but hasn't this been both parties defense mechanism for the almost last 20 years. Clinton wouldn't have beat Bush if Perot hadn't been on the ballot, he doesn't deserve to be Prez. GWB beats Al Gore, we bitch about election fraud(rightly so I believe) and that damn Ralph Nader he doesn't deserve to be Prez. Then here we are again with Obama won huge but he isn't a US Citizen so it doesn't count. I don't despute that there isn't racism involved here but another way of looking at this is what area of the country has the largest concentration of Registered Republicans. The South. I'm sure if Kos could go back to 2000 and ask if Bush stole the election then the South would be the highest % that would say no, he didn't.

            Racism isn't just confined to the South, you are foolish to think so.

          •  guess you've never been to Boston n/t (0+ / 0-)

            "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

            by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:51:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Technically we're not ... (7+ / 0-)

        ... picking on "the South" -- only on the Southern "whites".

        I don't think anyone here is picking on the Southern non-whites.

        OVER HERE: AN AMERICAN EXPAT IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE, is now available on Amazon US

        by Lupin on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:06:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and probably only white southern republicans (8+ / 0-)

          I'd assume white southern Democrats aren't birthers.

          It wouldn't surprise me if the WSRs are the only crazy group, and are substantially all crazy.

          "At the end of the day, the public plan wins the game." Sen. Ben Nelson

          by ferg on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:19:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The whole R/D thing gets complicated in the South (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Paper Cup, fiddler crabby

            Following the Civil War Rs and Ds switched in protest of the Republican Party's role in the Civil War.  In Georgia, for example, our current governor is the first Republican elected governor since Reconstruction.  That means since 1865, for those of you not acquainted with the way Southerners keep track of time.  Now, that doesn't mean they weren't social conservatives, just that the (R) identity was toxic.

            Although Georgia is one of the reddest states in the union, (hence, redstate.com)  the majority of elected politicians since the Civil War were Democrats, and when Republicans began making inroads it was with people like Newt, who were in districts with large non-native populations.  Other notables include Zell "Yosemite Sam" Miller (D-minus), Governor 1990-1998.  You may remember his speech from the 2004 Republican National Convention.

            One thing I wanted to point out and add to the theme of the diary about these poll numbers: they fail to take into account the part of the population who are not native to the South.
            The Metro Atlanta area now comprises 28 counties and roughly 5.4 million people.  Notice the size of the metro counties in comparison to the rest of the state, which boasts a total population of about 9.7 million.  What is striking is that the majority of people living in the metro area are not originally from Georgia.  In fact, it's kind of rare to meet someone who actually has family roots in this area.  I know only a couple of people who have family going back for generations.  Most of us though are from parts north, escapees like myself from the economic devastation of the rust belt.  We represent probably 3/4 of the massive population increase Georgia has seen in the past 30 years.

            So, if up to 75% of white southerners (according to the diary) have birther sympathies, and a seriously significant percentage of the population - 30-40% of the total in Georgia, perhaps, come from parts of the country with much lower numbers, then what does this tell you about the beliefs of the native, white southern population?

            That which doesn't kill me merely postpones the inevitable.

            by EeDan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:19:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  As many GA whites voted for Obama as for Kerry nt (0+ / 0-)

          "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

          by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:52:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It is not picking on the South (7+ / 0-)

        It is showing us statistics about many who live there.

        Frankly I am tired of being told not to criticize the South. It is not a matter of suggesting that all people there are right wing loonies, only that there are too many right wing loonies. That is fact, not irrational criticism.

        Donate at www.afghans4tomorrow.com and help a child learn to read.

        by kimoconnor on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:22:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Children left behind? (4+ / 0-)

      Not sure if it's a "whole lotta' children left behind" or just a systemic case of cultural social promotion.

      sláinte,

      cl

      Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

      by Caoimhin Laochdha on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:51:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Whites Just Chose Their Parents Well (5+ / 0-)

      If you tongue-in-cheek told a white bigot they did a great job choosing their white parents, is there any doubt they would smile approvingly. Warning: Non-whites should NOT make this comment to the white bigots.

    •  I'm wondering (9+ / 0-)

      what the percentage would be on Southerners who have left the South? I'm also wondering about percentages for rural vs urban in the South.

      •  The vast majority of land in (0+ / 0-)

        the south is rural. And tobacco country is alive and well. In the cities it's like the rest of the country but the cities are pretty few and far between. Charlotte and Atlanta are the biggest and most well educated. And the entire states of South Carolina and Texas... are just gone. And most of Louisiana... how in the world does anyone elect a Bobby Jindal?

    •  Do those figures match the percentage (0+ / 0-)

      of out and out bigots?

      Sarah Palin - What Will She Quit Next?

      by kitebro on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:04:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are they pushing this crap in the churches? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Paper Cup

      Has anyone experienced that happening?

      Sarah Palin - What Will She Quit Next?

      by kitebro on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:40:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think this points to ... (43+ / 0-)

      ... something more than just "southern whites are racist." I think we are looking at ingrained cultural attitudes that originally drew upon the experiences of slavery and slave-holding, the civil war, reconstruction and the civil rights movement, and are now just embedded subliminally in the white culture of that region.

      In one of the poorest and historically troubled areas of the country, cultural resentments remain as racial scapegoating, 150 years after the fall of the plantation South. If this is ever going to improve, the cultural residue of the past needs to be dealt with constructively.

      ---

      •  Yes, how do we do that? (16+ / 0-)

        I'm horrified, actually.  I was born and raised in Kentucky, so I'm familiar with the attitudes there.  I found it rigidly authoritarian, and it was difficult if you deviated even slightly from normal - like be a liberal, for instance.

        Is there someone that these Southern whites would trust to tell them the truth and can we get them to tell them?  It seems like anytime a Republican tries, they get called out as a RINO and forced out of the party.

        Do we just have to let things collapse?  I'm worried about violence.

        My reality may not conform to your reality. Visit Delaware Liberal.

        by Unstable Isotope on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:57:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We need people like Ed Schultz down here. (9+ / 0-)

          There is an authoritative voice that southerners are accustomed to hearing.  They respond to it.  This is part of the reason Rush is successful.

          Mr. Rodgers isn't going to break through down here.  At least not yet.

          The bashing isn't helpful down here.  It may be helpful in other parts of the country but not down here.

          •  Of course it isn't (7+ / 0-)

            No one likes to be called stupid.

            My reality may not conform to your reality. Visit Delaware Liberal.

            by Unstable Isotope on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:04:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Rush is successful (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joynow, vgranucci, Dunvegan, dzog

            because he echoes their thoughts and prejudices. If he didn't, they wouldn't listen to him.

            It needs to be a preacher. Somebody they respect, and who has had a change of heart.

            Rick Warren, as much as everybody hates him here, could do it in some areas. Huckabee could do it too (but he won't).

            It really has to have the appearance of being sent from God, because that's the only way some of them would even consider changing their minds - and some of them won't even then.

            Billy Graham would be the ideal one - but he's too old now. And his son won't, not that anybody would listen to him.

          •  hell they should listen to Rush (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vgranucci, roadbear

            Freewill

            There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance take,
            A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

            A planet of playthings,
            We dance on the strings
            Of powers we cannot perceive
            "The stars aren't aligned,
            Or the gods are malign..."
            Blame is better to give than receive.

            You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
            If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
            You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
            I will choose a path that's clear
            I will choose freewill.

            Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

            by potty p on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:19:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Invasion (6+ / 0-)

          The only way to really change the attitudes there is to move hordes of educated culturally elite progressives into the region and start dominating the local governments, media and social institutions for at least a generation.

          Outside of that it is a lost cause.

          I say move the progressives to VA, NC and FL. Then let the rest of the south have OK and the freedom to leave the union. Build a giant electrified fence with some ground sensors, so we know they aren't trying to tunnel their way out, then forget about them. If they want to live in the 19th century I say we let them.

          Fail levels: fail, epic, epochal, eternal, Bush

          by abetterperson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:21:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, that is a great idea. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            roadbear

            If any progressives want to uproot and go live in the south. It has some beautiful spots, or so I hear.

            Movement of coasters to Utah is slowly changing the tone in that state. Not quite so red as in days gone by (though still plenty red, I'm not claiming any blue miracles).

            The similarities between the deep south and Utah are few. The main one that springs to my mind is the high incidence of fundamentalist religious belief.

            •  I'm moving to SC (0+ / 0-)

              Not sure how much it will help though (although I do hear Greenville has a Drinking Liberally group!).

              Greenville/Asheville is certainly pretty, although being from the NW I am a bit spoiled in that regard.

              I like lemurs -6.50, -4.82

              by roadbear on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 02:06:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Clan indoctrination, Tribal training... (5+ / 0-)

        Several years ago I watched a multi-hour program on the revolutionary war.  Many of us who didn't grow up in the South know about the early stages of the war Bunker Hill, Saratoga, etc., a few more stops and we're on to the surrender at Yorktown.

        But the revolution was fought in the south for more than a year before Yorktown.  This British captured coastal cities and enforced martial law.  This means most of the fighting was guerrilla warfare.  Plus, many of the Scots-Irish families remembered what the British had done to the Scots at Culloden just 30 years before.

        Although the British occupied New York and Boston, the occupation took on a form that casts a shadow down to this day - families fighting an occupying force that is running the government.

        Too me it was an epiphany - just as issues raised between British troops and the colonists foreshadowed the Revolutionary war, so too the experience of the British occupation in the south foreshadow the Civil war and the current southern attitude towards "big government".

        I'm not making a judgement one way or the other about the South, but this is a perspective that might be worth considering.

        The land was ours before we were the land's...Robert Frost, The Gift Outright

        by HylasBrook on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:16:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I live in NC and I still get upset when (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dzog

        they have someone from the south on TV. It used to be that the only time a southerner was on Johnny Carson was when they taught their pig to climb a tree. Then on Sex and the City when Charlotte was supposed to adopt a baby from Charlotte the couple looked like poor dirty rednecks in her house. She chose them because they were from "Charlotte". This is one of the few places that there isn't an evangelical church on every corner.

        •  Charlotte as non-evangelical? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          adrianrf

          Okay, I don't need another lecture on the difference between the urban south and the rural south, but c'mon.  Charlotte was the home of PTL, for the love of Pete.  I agree with your frustration with the South on TV, but Charlotte is hardly less evangelical than the rest of the South.

      •  Thank you for this comment. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dzog

        It is thoughtful, constructive, and very accurate.

        "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

        by missLotus on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:15:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think (0+ / 0-)

        it is a ton of people who have been conditioned to believe that only the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh understand them and know the truth about how they're being kept down by the liberal coastal elites.  They trust the bastards -- if they contradict common sense, common sense must be wrong.

        That, plus racism.  Mix that in with the rest and for the first time we're seeing the real power of these media scumbags.  If it fits with their prejudices, they'll believe anything, even a brazenly obvious lie.  It's a serious problem.

    •  Really, it isn't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vgranucci

      Ok, so I read the polls.

      by andgarden on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:52:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tsk, tsk, tsk . . . . (12+ / 0-)

    is this more of that "southern bashing" I've been reading so much about of late?

  •  Hmmm, Southern whites (25+ / 0-)

    cling to racist conspiracy theory.  Who'd a thunk it?

    Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war. - A. Einstein

    by I love OCD on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:35:25 AM PDT

  •  I doubt that many really believe the BS. (43+ / 0-)

    They're simply grasping for any weapon against Obama and the Dems they can find.

    "He was born in Kenya!" vs. the possible end of the recession?  That's a fight I'll take.

    Songs up at da web site! Also. . . It's Kostown, Jake. . .

    by Crashing Vor on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:35:35 AM PDT

  •  do you think they are big Joe Biden supporters (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vgranucci, FarWestGirl, blackjackal

    perhaps?

    or Nancy Pelosi supporters?

    Republicans===the party of the 1% rich people in America. Or in other words..The Party of NO!

    by jalapeno on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:36:12 AM PDT

  •  But if somebody says 'not sure' you cannot tell (15+ / 0-)

    they are birthers... b/c some people simply prefer not to be wrong and they are always undecided.

    Democrats keep the US from becoming Third World. :)

    by The Simple Canadian on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:36:31 AM PDT

    •  Some people don't even know who Barack Obama is.. (12+ / 0-)

      Democrats keep the US from becoming Third World. :)

      by The Simple Canadian on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:37:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bet they know (3+ / 0-)

        who Robert E Lee is though. ;)

        •  Oddly Obama is related to Robert E Lee (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MKSinSA

          From the New England Historic Genealogical Society

          They researched the candidates.
          They show how Obama is related to (partial list)

          # President Obama/George W. Bush # President Obama/Dick Cheney # President Obama/Gerald Ford # President Obama/Lyndon B. Johnson # President Obama/Harry S Truman # President Obama/Jimmy Carter # President Obama/James Madison # President Obama/Winston Churchill # President Obama/Brad Pitt # President Obama/Robert E. Lee

          All of them had some famous cousins of course but none were found to be related to other presidents. Obama goes a little overboard with 9 presidents. I noticed after the reports came out he quit joking about his cousin Dick Cheney.
          Obama also shares some ancestry with Palin and McCain
          Obama and Sarah Palin descend from Samuel and Sarah (Soule) Hinckley.
          Palin, Obama and McCain all claim William 1, King of Scots as an ancestor.
          Palin and  McCain are 12th cousins but neither are related to Obama despite a shared ancestor? I don't know how that works.
          The site says Palin shares an ancestor with Ulysses S. Grant, Franklin D. Roosevelt and both Bush presidents (and Benedict Arnold)...but not that they are kin...so I am not sure.

          The press had the most fun with Obama/Brad Pitt and Clinton/Angelina Jolie of course.

    •  Like picking (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vgranucci, kyril

      pie in Dkos diary polls. :)

    •  Lots of people don't follow the news closely (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Simple Canadian

      I strongly suspect that the vast majority of the "don't knows" in the South are those who probably heard something from a neighbor or a friend or a talk radio personality.  Many may not even be aware that it's a big deal in the Constitution.

      I mean, yes, I'm a news hound, so of course I know all about it, but there are a lot of folks out there who tune out the news.  (and if that's Fox News, is that such a bad thing?)  But realistically, do you know where Sarah Palin was born?  I mean, I'd guess Alaska, but if some guy called me up and asked me if I thought Sarah Palin was born in Alaska, I'd say "Don't know."  Does this mean I'm questioning her legality to run for President?

      •  The Question Was About The President Being Born (0+ / 0-)

        in the U.S., not any specific state.

        No way anymore than the jokester percentage would be unsure that Palin was born in the good ol' U.S. of A.

      •  exactly, which makes me wonder why this poll was (0+ / 0-)

        commissioned in the first place... some things we just got to move under the rug and go on with our lives...

        Democrats keep the US from becoming Third World. :)

        by The Simple Canadian on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:37:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  1860 (0+ / 0-)

        The Southern media and local rumor-mongers were hard at work manipulating the population to pull off secession.  After it happened, it turned out that many upcountry Southerners didn't really want to secede.

        My take on that is that the lies and rumors were meant to create enough doubt among those Southerners that the extremists could bum-rush their legislatures into secession.

        Popular lies: "Lincoln is a half-ni**er"
        "If Negroes are freed they will rape our women in the streets" (I actually saw this claim in an 1860 newspaper in a college library collection.)
        "Our condition will be reversed and we will be the slaves and they the masters" (Quoted in Ken Burns' The Civil War)

        It's started again.

  •  Where are these people. I'm a southern white (15+ / 0-)

    guy and I don't think I've met any of them.  

    "Don't bet against us" -President Barack Obama

    by nicweb on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:36:45 AM PDT

  •  Say it ain't so Kos! (6+ / 0-)

    Are you kicking us white male southern progressives to the curb, too?

    Never confuse kindness and patience with stupidity and weakness!!

    by Joes Steven on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:36:48 AM PDT

    •  Not to mention southern white females (8+ / 0-)

      We ain't all crazy. At least my friends aren't. Can't speak for all the members of my family.

      Today's problems are yesterday's solutions. Don Beck

      by Sherri in TX on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:39:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Being you are in TX, raises a question-What (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vgranucci

        is considered the South; according to this poll??

        I would not automatically include Texas as in the South--though many do.  And, what about Florida?  South, or not?  You gonna tell me Miami is part of the "South"?
        However, north florida might be considered.

        Hmm---lots to consider.....

    •  White southern males: your problem (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vgranucci, fou, Sparkys Dad, roadbear

      The poll shows what the majority of your group believes. Deal with it. It's your problem, not Seattle's, Portland's, San Francisco's. We have our own problems but we work good governance daily. A white male progressive challenge: Do you attend your local Democratic Party meeting? Do you participate in change for Texas, for instance?

      ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

      by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:51:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually (11+ / 0-)

        I do all of those things and so do many others.  I think the difference between what we do down here and the people in Seattle, Portland and San Francisco is the difference between an soldier on the front lines in Afghanistan and one sitting at a desk in Washington D.C.   I think it would be nice to get a little support in this fight rather than the constant bashing that takes place here.

        "Only the educated are free." -Epictetus

        by 20shadesofviolet on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:09:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe the "bashing" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Karma for All, majcmb1

          is our way of recognizing and acknowledging that where you are is indeed the front lines of Afghanistan.

          Saying Afghanistan sucks and is a scary, horrible place in NO way denigrates the front-line soldiers who are fighting there; it honors them.

          Relax - the adults are in charge now.

          by NWTerriD on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:31:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are right to a large extent (0+ / 0-)

          but remember that those in Seattle, Portland and San Francisco (not to mention other parts of the country) fought these battles 80, 90, 100 years ago.  The visceral hatred for the rights of labor in the South is stunning to someone from Seattle or Portland, believe me.

          The 50-state strategy is the way to go; there should be little doubt about that following our successes of the past several years.  However, to support you we need to see (and hear) you.  I've tried to follow liberal blogs in the deep South (SC in particular) and it seems as though long periods of time go between comments on a lot of them, even the very best.

          It is an uphill battle, but we can win it with people like you on the front lines.  It will just take a lot of time and a lot of effort.  

          I like lemurs -6.50, -4.82

          by roadbear on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:06:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I do. (7+ / 0-)

        In fact, I'm the credentials committee chair for my local Democratic Executive Committee.  I am also heavily involved in my county's Stonewall Democrats group.

        Don't lecture me!

        Never confuse kindness and patience with stupidity and weakness!!

        by Joes Steven on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:14:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Where did you go, mrobinson? n/t (0+ / 0-)

        Never confuse kindness and patience with stupidity and weakness!!

        by Joes Steven on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:36:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I went to Texas for the abolition (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SherriG

          fight against the death penalty. I visited the women on death row regularly. I worked to find appeals lawyers. I stood with Texas abolitionists across the street from Gov. George Bush's mansion in Austin for each execution. Where were you?

          ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

          by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:43:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was here fighting the good fight in Florida. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            emsprater

            I don't think it's necessary to compare resumes here, I was simply pointing out that white male progressives in the south ARE working and the bashing that is going on around here is getting very old.

            I'm pretty sure that Governor Dean wouldn't agree with you stating that what goes on in the south is "our problem".

            What happened to "We're all in this together"?

            Never confuse kindness and patience with stupidity and weakness!!

            by Joes Steven on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:58:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Learn to grow a thick skin. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ssgbryan, Karma for All, majcmb1

              That's the real problem with white Southerners - not racism or a lack of education, by themselves - but an overweening sense of Southron PRIDE that can easily manifest itself as know-nothing hyperbolic jingoistic patriotism, or white-power asshattery.

              I mean, the Klan hates more than blacks - they hate Jews, they hate those from south of the border - Jeez, they even hate me, just because I had a Catholic mother. (My Dad's Lutheran, a church of what opinion the Klan has I don't care to know.)

              Southerners need to learn to stop being so goddamned proud of themselves. Not that they need to wear ashes and sackcloth, but a little humility wouldn't hurt. The main problem is many simply don't have even the capability for self-reflection, except, if ever, in the breach.

              As Mac Davis sang, "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way."

              Is it religion? The philosophy of the good-ole-boy network, which puts a perverse emphasis on how little book-learning you have? The odd, alien "honor" system? I don't really know.

              The last eight years have taught the rest of this nation that we're NOT in this together- and it took a Texan manque to teach us that. He appears to have started the war for purely elitist reasons - for white wealthy males from oil and military industries, all overwhelmingly southern in origin. (And Dick Cheney may be from Wyoming, but he had to hastily move his official residency there from Texas when becoming VP to avoid a constitutional problem.)

              You may not recognize Texas as part of the South, but they sure as hell didn't fight for the Union, and they've been recognized as such ever since by the rest of the country.

              And to my sense of humility? I'm from Wisconsin - we're the butt of many jokes.  Most of these jokes them stem from the opinion that we're an innocent, idealistic, cheese-oriented people, often with funny accents which sound like Sarah Palin from Norway. Which is often true... stereotypes may be over-broad, but often have their origins in truth. We even call the accent "Sconnie", call each other "Ole and Lena", and refer to each other as being from "Wiscontucky". Proud about a few things? Yah. Everything? No.  

              "It's said that the cream rises to the top. Unfortunately, so does the scum."

              by Black Brant on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:34:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Probably standing right next to you. (0+ / 0-)

            Have you been down for any protests under Perry's administration?  Because, in many ways he's been worse.  At least Bush had the guiding hand of Bob Bullock . . . .  not that that helped in the Death Penalty fight. But, Perry apparently doesn't look to anyone for guidance except some mysterious voice that speaks to him at night.  

            "Only the educated are free." -Epictetus

            by 20shadesofviolet on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:36:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I live in Texas, (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ginatx, vgranucci, majcmb1, Phil S 33, jgtidd, kyril

      I am a white female, I have many white friends and not one of them believes that President Obama was born in Kenya.  I live in Houston, which along with the other 3 major cities in Texas voted for Obama.  I know there are lot of crazies living down here but, I would really like to see more specifics on the poll.  Maybe we can pin point exactly where they are.

      "Only the educated are free." -Epictetus

      by 20shadesofviolet on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:54:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This audio clip in the linked diary is Great. (6+ / 0-)

    Best Damn Rant of the Decade

    He keeps on warming up and by the last 1/4 of the clip he sets the place on fire.  It is a must listen to - you will be glad you spent your time listening.  

    No Robust Public Option - No Reelection - No Kidding!

    by dr fatman on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:37:46 AM PDT

  •  Margin of error for 720 sample is 4% (5+ / 0-)

    If 720 is the number of white persons in the Southern states sample, then the margin of statistical error in that sample is 4%. So 70 +/- 4%, if that is the actual result, is a staggeringly bad indictment of the intelligence of Southern white folk.

  •  Shouldn't have accepted surrender at Appomatox (5+ / 0-)

    should let Sherman just clear the South straight down to Mobile Bay and West to Galveston.

    "It's a gay witches for abortion party Flanders, you wouldn't be interested." - Homer Simpson

    by angry liberaltarian on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:37:57 AM PDT

    •  Uh, no. (11+ / 0-)

      Sherman's March didn't make anyone smarter or less racist.

      And a big percentage of those white Southerners polled in this study would be the children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of the people who moved to the South from the North in the many decades since the Civil War.  Ascribing to everyone in the South a resolute attachment to antebellum values is indefensible.

      •  And Sherman's March didn't make any friends (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        emsprater, ArtSchmart

        for the North, nor make reconciliation or reconstruction any easier.  It may be that he did what he had to do - or thought he had to do - but it sure as hell did make a bad situation worse.

        That which doesn't kill me merely postpones the inevitable.

        by EeDan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:30:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bill Sherman gutted Southern industry. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          adrianrf

          Burning Atlanta was probably a very good thing to do from the North's perspective - a good portion of what industry the Confederacy had left perished in the inferno. There was no "industrial zoning" in those days, so residential areas burned with the rest of the city.

          Sherman wasn't really interested in making friends, although he did want to influence people. He wanted to "make the South howl" and make them afraid to ever make war on the North again. Much of it was payback, pure and simple - he lost a lot of friends at places like Shiloh and Antietam.

          In doing so, however, he also fell upon total war precepts that, for better or worse, we use to this very day. War between nations pits weapons against weapons, and resources against resources, not just people against people. This in turn has inadvertently caused the rise of guerrilla and irregular warfare, which is much less techno-centric.

          William Tecumseh Sherman, of course, wouldn't have known that at the time. Although he was being harassed, somewhat ineffectually, in his rear areas by a guerrilla campaign led by a slave trader turned Confederate General named Nathan Bedford Forrest, who later was a primary leader of the Klu Klux Klan...but now you know the rest of the tale.

          "It's said that the cream rises to the top. Unfortunately, so does the scum."

          by Black Brant on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:51:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just curious (0+ / 0-)

            You have some detailed knowledge of that campaign.  Are you from or in the Atlanta area?

            That which doesn't kill me merely postpones the inevitable.

            by EeDan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:50:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think Sherman would have been surprised (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            majcmb1

            Sherman had fought the Native Americans in his youth - he warned his campaign in Georgia would "be like a big Indian war".  He was very, very concerned about Forrest.

            And he was one of the most brilliant and far-sighted military thinkers.  So I'm sure it occurred to him that he and his government would be at a disadvantage against guerrilla warfare.

            How do governments always deal with the threat of guerrilla warfare?  They beat the hell out of the civilian population to temporarily keep them quiet.  It's a temporary solution that often makes things worse in the long run, but generals and bureaucrats are always judged by short-term results.

            The proof that Sherman was brilliant comes in his proposal for how the occupation of the South should operate (paraphrasing):

            We would present the plantation owners with a dictatorship and they would do business with it.

            We would pretend to consult the prejudices of the Southern masses and then do whatever we please.

            Most of all we would have to deal with the young white men of the South; either kill them or employ them.

            I think he was just expressing how the South has always been governed, and it's not very different now.

    •  Your comment suggests .... (0+ / 0-)

      a form of genocide.  Is that your solution?

      In honor of the Obama Administration's actions on GLBT issues during Pride month, Pride 2009 is proclaimed "Back of the Bus Pride Month".!

      by emsprater on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 12:53:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  why is this a shock? n/t (7+ / 0-)

    When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

    by onanyes on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:38:05 AM PDT

  •  Glad the gop is making itself a regional party (9+ / 0-)

    Keep those tin hats on!!!

    Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

    by uc booker on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:39:00 AM PDT

  •  The "Bell Curve"-type racists, take note. (13+ / 0-)

    This is your alleged "white IQ superiority" right there.

    So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

    by skeptiq on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:39:14 AM PDT

  •  Birthers are just a last gasp... (11+ / 0-)

    ...of whiners and sore losers.

    I'd call the "whaaambulance" for them...but sorry guys...health care broken, and the ambulance was sold to "Cash for Clunkers."

    2006 Sig: Obama 2008

    2009 Sig: "Thank you America." - Overheard from the rest of our planet.

    Facts are stupid things. -- Ronald Reagan

    by Dunvegan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:39:26 AM PDT

    •  Maybe the last gasp of the Civil War even? (0+ / 0-)

      Maybe it's possible these folks never accepted that they lost the Civil War. Now it's being put in their faces and it's the last gasp of realizing they lost and that way of life is never coming back. It's been, what, 140 years of denial? That much denial doesn't end easily or quietly.

      Californians: The Courage Campaign is working for a better budget and changing the 2/3 budget rule. Go!

      by tmo on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:28:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm thinking this needs to be stopped. (13+ / 0-)

    Bill Maher reminded us last night that the Clinton's impeachment for lying about a blow job began with a little real estate deal called White Water.  After years a a cool 100 mil. Clinton was impeached.  These people will not stop.

    •  Different Situation (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmo, Dunvegan, jds1978, Sparkys Dad

      Die Partei Republikkkanische can't impeach anybody for anything with their minorities in the House and Senate.

      Clinton's impeachment was made possible by 1994 elections and the desire to overturn 1996's results--elections that don't end the way the Reich wants them to in Iran, Nicaragua and elsewhere are nullified, why not here as well?

  •  This has to be great news for John McCain! (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shadan7, pat208, Dunvegan, Matt Z, beemerr

    Can he get anymore white or southern?

    Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

    by uc booker on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:40:22 AM PDT

  •  Reverse Secession (6+ / 0-)

    Ask them to leave the union, if they hate it so much and this time, welcome their starting their own nation.

    Minus subsidies and with the attendant brain drain as Austin, Atlanta and New Orleans empty out, they'd be screaming for a return in 3 months.

    Realistically, Johnson and Grant should have instituted a "Trail of Broken Tears" for white Southerners and started over from scratch in the 1870's.Of course, we'd have had to deal with their nonsense in greater percentage (a la Bakersfield and its Okies), but at least there wouldn't be an entire region overrun with America haters in one place.

    •  And Charlotte, Asheville, Charlottesville... (6+ / 0-)

      ... Raligh-Durham, Miami, Gainesville, Nashville, Athens, Chapel Hill, Oxford, ... ... ...

      And on and on. Contrary to folk tales (told even 'round here, apparently), there are a lot of brains to drain from the South. Some of them don't even live in the big cities and university towns.

      Sick of the broad brush. Go after the villians, sure. But a lot of others live here, too. And we like our President just fine, thank you.

      with the attendant brain drain as Austin, Atlanta and New Orleans empty out

      "If you don't stick to your values when they're tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies." -- Jon Stewart, Jan. 22, 2009

      by pat208 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:55:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Simple amendment: (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      figbash, kimoconnor, marmar, NWTerriD

      The republicans in the south can vote for a simple constitutional amendment:

      No state shall receive more in total federal expenditures than the total federal tax reciepts of its citizens.

      At the discretion of congress, the federal government may disburse supplemental monies solely for the purpose of providing for the health and eduction of the several states.

      If southern republicans really hate the federal government and welfare, then they can truly live that dream. They forget that they get far more money than they pay in taxes...And the cost is externalized onto the rest of the country.

      This way, the south gets off the military-industrial teat, and pork becomes health & education, which would greatly benefit our southern liberal friends.

      The states also have a great incentive to do the right thing and pay taxes...Because if the obligation is several billion more than the receipts, the state loses out on several billion dollars.

      It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

      by Gravedugger on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:02:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nice idea. (0+ / 0-)

        Calls the Southern Repub bluff about "State's Rights" and "Sovereignty" nicely. Watch them whine even if it goes nowhere.

        Blue Dog Dems, of course, will want no part of this.

        "It's said that the cream rises to the top. Unfortunately, so does the scum."

        by Black Brant on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:56:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree - we should take the opposite approach (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        majcmb1

        I completely disagree with this. I don't care what they say they want. Their sense of tribalism and all the modern affronts to it, especially the ongoing fact of Obama's presidency, along with the intense prolonged poverty and lack of education, prevent them from thinking rationally. Honestly I think we should treat these kind of southern whites like children who don't really know what they want nor understand what they need. What they need in my humble opinion is investment in education. This will improve the poverty situation, and help with the wounded pride problem. We should start up three or four extremely well-funded low-tuition high-paying research universities throughout the south, in the deepest parts of the south.

        We need to make it a progressive project to bring the south back into the fold through intense investment in education. In my opinion the failure of these southern whites to keep up with modernity is a failure of all of ours and we all need to pitch in to do something about it.

        Californians: The Courage Campaign is working for a better budget and changing the 2/3 budget rule. Go!

        by tmo on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:43:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Has anybody asked if they think Hawaii is (18+ / 0-)

    a state and was a state when Obama was born?

    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

    by hannah on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:40:55 AM PDT

  •  To protest inadequate funding for school music (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dunvegan, jds1978, beemerr

    progams, Republican activists will be holding a Rusty Trombone protest.

  •  Not news (8+ / 0-)

    Not news: White people in the South don't like Obama, are suspicious of him, and didn't vote for him. Not news: There are white people in the south who don't like anyone with brown skin color, are suspicious of them, won't vote for them.

    ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

    by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:41:12 AM PDT

    •  I've got my look down (7+ / 0-)

      At work we have this coffee shop that plays CNN 24-7 (at least it's not Fox) and I swear, I'd like to go in at least once without seeing a group of these types loudly going on about how this country is being destroyed by President Obama, and other such nonsense.  Now, Duval County barely went McCain with 51-48%, and I see just as many white people driving with "Obama 08" stickers as I do black people, but that 51% that helped carry the county are very loud, and very vocal.  

      So thus my look of "Fuck you, he still won and you can't do anything about it" complacence, as I wait for my bagel and tea.  

      More than one thing at a time != Doing EVERYTHING at one time.

      by RinaX on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:53:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's what tyhey do, shout loudly. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mmacdDE, majcmb1, Dunvegan, Matt Z

        It's the same thing they do online, the wingnuts, the post wholesale to give the impression that they are are more numerous than they are, and to sabotage any genuine discussion. Comment pages from newspapers are just overrun with them.

        I live in Minneapolis, where the "conservative" parts are 60%+ Democratic. My precinct is 85% Democratic, and it's not even the most liberal precinct in the city. The few wingnuts here feel perfectly comfortable ranting and raving.

        If this was reversed, if this were a city that was 60-90% Republican, it might be pretty unsafe to be a very vocal liberal.

        The wolfpack eats venison. The lone wolf eats mice.

        by A Citizen on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:12:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's not the fact, it's the PERCENT (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      So MANY of the bastards.

  •  GOP=southern, white, racists. nuff said. (6+ / 0-)

    "There's no reason to say I'm the illegitimate grandson of an alligator." Birther Biller, Rep. Bill Posey

    by marabout40 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:42:10 AM PDT

  •  Wait... (36+ / 0-)

    ....we all understand that this is all about Obama's race, right?

    I mean screaming "He's a KENYAN!!!" is the new "He's a NIGGER!!!"

    That's what this is all about.

  •  My ignorant fundie parents from Georgia (16+ / 0-)

    think that Obama is anti-Israel and will prevent the Biblical unification of old Israel thus prolonging the Apocalypse.  This view is "un-American" to them so he is obviously part of a plot from outside the country.

    This is mainstream Southern Baptist thinking as bizarre as it sounds.

    "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

    by shrike on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:43:31 AM PDT

  •  It's not a matter of belief so much as it is (8+ / 0-)

    A matter of White Privilege.  The privilege of having whatever you wish were true acknowledged as fact no matter how ridiculous or destructive the notion.  

    As in days gone by, if a white person says it's true, it's true.

    Most of them know they're full of shit, but because they wish Obama really were illegitimate, they assume they should be able to say so and have it regarded as fact.

  •  "May be"? That's not enough (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cardinal, Lying eyes, emsprater

    to make front-page worthy assumptions. I can see being concerned about the 23% who think Obama is foreign-born, but I don't think we should be labeling those who tell a pollster they "don't know" as "birthers" in the absence of more info. We might call them ignorant, but that's it.

    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

    by Alice in Florida on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:45:44 AM PDT

  •  Who would ever have guessed that? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    It isn't just the color of his skin though, the mindset probably also has a built in republican creed.


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:45:58 AM PDT

  •  Big or close (5+ / 0-)

    I can't help but think of what Godfrey Cambridge said of black people and regionalism, "in the South they (whites) don't care how close you are, just don't get big; in the North they don't care how big you get, just don't get close."
    There's no one bigger than the President of the United States and the birthers can't accept that so it can't be true.

  •  I'd like to see a poll qestion... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lying eyes, emsprater

    ...where all the evidence is laid out against the birthers -- BEFORE you ask whether they think the birthers are right.

    I suspect the numbers will be much, much lower.

  •  I live in North Carolina though I'm (23+ / 0-)

    a transplant.  While I don't hear much blatantly racist talk, I do perceive from many white folks here, a real disbelief that we actually have a black President.  It's the "still fighting the Civil War" thing and while they're certainly not going to discuss it with me when they realize I'm a Yankee, it is very much there.  The whole "birther" issue is the only place they can pin their hopes that they might be able to undo Obama's Presidency.

    I worked damn hard down here to help North Carolina go blue as did many others. Even though it wasn't a huge win here, it was a win and I'm proud of it.  I think that NC and Virginia are pretty good indications of the change that has been a long time in coming.  There are many people who have moved here from Northern states and that is changing the tone.  That is also something that some native Southerners really dislike--we came here and are changing their old tradtions.  That has been said to my face.

    "there's time for naught but bold resolves." John Barth

    by lovespaper on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:46:57 AM PDT

  •  Same people thought Saddam was behind 9/11 (6+ / 0-)
  •  Sometimes I wonder if what Lincoln did was right, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tmo, happymisanthropy, Sparkys Dad

    Sometimes.

    Republicans, the best comic relief any party could hope for.

    by Daman09 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:47:49 AM PDT

  •  You know ..... (6+ / 0-)

    as a white southerner this is getting really old.

    Probably as many as 2/3 of southern whites couldn't tell pollsters where GWB was born, either.  That doesn't make them 'birthers'.  Not knowing where a POTUS was born doesn't equate with thinking that POTUS wasn't born in the USA.

    So once again, on kos, it's bash whites day, bash southerners day and specifically bash white southerners day.

    What's next, southern gays? Southern SUV divers?  Southern mill workers (well, not many left ...)?

    This 'bash the other' meme needs to be laid to rest on a progressive site, or it will eventually become a just another circle jerk.

    In honor of the Obama Administration's actions on GLBT issues during Pride month, Pride 2009 is proclaimed "Back of the Bus Pride Month".!

    by emsprater on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:47:55 AM PDT

  •  Not shocking to me. White Southerners (8+ / 0-)

    believe that the civil war was not a rebellion and an attempt to overthrow the lawful government of the United States, but merely a "war between the states." As if the south had legitimate beefs.

    Wierd people.

    "If you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra

    by brooklynbadboy on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:48:05 AM PDT

  •  I never really bought into the whole (14+ / 0-)
    'the South is really like being in a different country' thing that I've heard so often in my life. I haven't been there but a couple times, the experiences were both strange, but I just chalked it up to the phase of the Moon and the odds of running into nutballs is pretty high anywhere, like eve here in Omaha, NE.

    But this just really astounds me, that SO MANY people can be deluded by fear, insecurity, ignorance, and racism to the point of (and I say this in all sincerity) insanity. This just upsets me because I can't tell where this shit will end. The hatred is just getting stronger, so much so that you can almost FEEL it grow. Hatred fueled by ignorance and racism on such a scale always ends badly.

  •  Jon Perr has a good article on this as well (16+ / 0-)

    Birther Movement Just the Latest Southern Pathology  

    Where did McCain increase the GOP share of the vote?

    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

    And which states have the shittiest health care?

    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

    http://www.perrspectives.com/...

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:49:29 AM PDT

    •  Great read - highly recommended... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lefty Coaster, happymisanthropy

      This bit toward the end really stood out.

      ...In January 2009, a new report from the CDC showed teen birth rates increased for the first time in 15 years. Topping the list was Mississippi; again, 8 of the other 9 states in the top 10 went Republican in 2008. By almost any measure of societal breakdown that so-called Republican "values voters" decry, it is Red State America where moral failure is greatest....

      (my emphasis)

      Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

      by Jahiz on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:55:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bottom quintile: A solid South + California (0+ / 0-)

      California is on a trajectory to join the South in poor quality Health Care.

      Insurance, Oil, Banking, and Defense corporations all have a substantial equity positions in what's supposed to be our Congress.

      by Lefty Coaster on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:39:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hate to say this but (0+ / 0-)

      when I see a chart like this (Healthcare Scorecard) I can't help but think, why are progressives breaking their necks to help the neediest when the neediest don't even want the help and try to block it at every turn?  And with Texas being a very populous state, if they would just succeed, it would solve so many problems.

  •  Yay! (11+ / 0-)

    I'm part of the 30% sane, white, and southern...the meeting is Tuesday...it's a small hall...there ain't many of us left...

  •  Wow... (4+ / 0-)
    Just wow.

    Kind of puts that 'Stop bashing the South NOW!' diary from yesterday in perspective.

    The GOP: Amateur Hour 24 Hours A Day

    by wastelandusa on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:49:51 AM PDT

  •  IMO, this is all about that river in Egypt. (6+ / 0-)

    Disbelief that the southern white way of life is over, if it ever really existed.

  •  The Southern United States (6+ / 0-)

    Or, as it is referred to in developed countries throughout the world: The United States' "Semi-Autonomous Tribal Region."

    sláinte,

    cl

    Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

    by Caoimhin Laochdha on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:50:18 AM PDT

  •  Well that settles it (8+ / 0-)

    It is purely a racist issue.  I had always suspected as much.

    The christian right, is neither.

    by JanG on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:51:16 AM PDT

  •  Time to start running ads in the South... (11+ / 0-)

    ...with intelligent and respected Southerners debunking that nonsense. Talking about how embarassing it is.

  •  Can southern whites stop acting like victims? (12+ / 0-)

    This was a scientifically designed poll, with questions, margins of error, and planning. It's called science people.  The data proved that the birthers are overwhelmingly southern whites.  This isn't a bunch of Northerners "trashing" their southern counterparts.  There is a scientific basis for the assertions being made.

    Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

    by uc booker on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:51:46 AM PDT

    •  no. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      uc booker

      When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

      by onanyes on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:57:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The wingnut talking heads pour gas on it 24/7 (4+ / 0-)

      Hell, even Texas Governors-secession crap talk.  Now halth care will kill old people.  Obama's a racist-hate's white people. The birther shit is the foundation for the hate. They don't WANT to believe otherwise.  For the southern haters,this is their call to rise up and rebel.  Facts have nothing to do with this, and that is why it is vital to crush this shit now.  It is getting to crazy-scary time.  70%!!!!!!!!!!!!?

      Justice for Siegelman

      by realwischeese on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:57:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

        If Southerners had this opinion as a matter of course, there would be no need for the 24/7 wall-to-wall propaganda mounted by Rush and company and pandered to by Sanford, Chambliss, Barbour, Perry, and the other Republican governors.

        What happens when the propaganda goes silent?  When FoxNews and Lou Dobbs and Scarborough are gone from the tee-vee?

    •  The poll proves .... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SherriG, Anne was here

      that the birthers are overwhelmingly southern whites, agreed.

      But folks around here, apparently commenters here and this diarist included, are using the poll to say that white southerners are overwhelmingly birthers.

      They are not the same, and the poll didn't prove that.

      Once again, 'science' is being used as a political weapon, and it's being applied in error.

      In honor of the Obama Administration's actions on GLBT issues during Pride month, Pride 2009 is proclaimed "Back of the Bus Pride Month".!

      by emsprater on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:04:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Depends on how you understand the "don't know" (4+ / 0-)

        answers. I'd say this poll DOES point to a majority of southern whites being birthers.

        Ok, so I read the polls.

        by andgarden on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:10:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're wrong. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        andgarden, Dunvegan, TFinSF

        "There was no deviation in the number of black, Hispanic, and other voters from one region of the country to another," Ali told TWI. In the South, like everywhere else, the vast majority of non-white voters said that Obama was born in the United States; 97 percent of black voters, 87 percent of Hispanic voters, and 88 percent of other minorities. The extremely low overall percentage? That’s due to white Southerners, who dragged down the average with an extremely high level of doubt about Obama.

        So what proportion of Southern whites doubt that Obama is an American citizen? While Ali did not release the racial breakdowns for the the South, and cautioned that the margin of error in the smaller sample of 720 people would be larger than the national margin of error (2 percent), the percent of white Southern voters may be higher than 70 percent. More than 30 percent of the people polled in the South were non-white, and very few of them told pollsters that they had questions about Obama’s citizenship. In order for white voters to drive the South’s "don’t know" number to 30 percent and it’s "born outside the United States" number to 23 percent, as many as three-quarters of Southern whites told pollsters that they didn’t know where Obama was born.

        Read it again.  If there was no regional deviation in the number of non-white voters who believe Obama is not a citizen, then the only way to a 42% figure is for 70+% of white voters to deny his citizenship.  That's what the numbers say.

        Blagojevich/Palin '12.

        by fou on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:18:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Southern whites are, however, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dunvegan, fou

        overwhelmingly BIGOTS at about THIS SAME percentage, with the obvious exceptions of southern states that Obama carried (North Carolina, Virginia, and Florida) -- where the percentage drops from "overwhelmingly" to just "mostly" (i.e. from 75% to 65%).

        The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

        by ge0rge on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:25:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I like what Bill Maher said last night (19+ / 0-)

    "I'll show you Obama's birth certificate when you show me Sarah Palin's high school diploma."

    It's often said that life is strange. But compared to what? --Steve Forbert

    by darthstar on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:53:13 AM PDT

  •  Sad, but true... (14+ / 0-)

    Today I was shopping in one of my favorite furniture stores (In Central Virginia) where the propriatress was glued to her in-store television watching FOX News...

    When leaving and telling her that I do not ever patronize businesses which display FOX News, she seemed completely surprised that any of her customers would take my position. She expressed some regret- certainly because I was one of her best customers - and admitted that she merely had been watching FOX for any breaking developments in FOX proving, as it continually seems to suggest,  that President Obama is not, in fact,  a natural-born citizen.

    One of the "not sures", evidently. But I think for persons who only get their broadcast news via FOX, it would seem a logical perception.

  •  Proof that sausage gravy and biscuits (3+ / 0-)

    is not brain food.  

    "It's just amazing what people will do to get out of being the 2012 Republican Presidential nominee."

    by jwinIL14 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:55:58 AM PDT

  •  This issue is killing the GOP. (8+ / 0-)

    They look like complete crackpots and lunatics.

  •  I'd like to see a breakdown between (10+ / 0-)

    rural and urban.

    In some other sections of the country, you see these attitudes in rural sections.

    Take Texas:  Obama actually won Dallas (15 points), Houston (narrowly), San Antonio (narrowly), Austin (30 points) and El Paso (30 points); only Ft. Worth went for McCain.

    But we got blistered in much of the non-Hispanic countryside and small towns; just blasted.

    So I wonder how much of these poll results are due to the rural/urban mix.

    When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

    by onanyes on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:57:00 AM PDT

  •  Note to self (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    liberte, happymisanthropy

    Make sure Obama does no townhalls in states that would have went for George Bush if he ran in 2008

    "Don't bet against us" -President Barack Obama

    by theone718 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:58:52 AM PDT

  •  It's tough... (0+ / 0-)

    to know where someone else was born when you have no idea where you were born!

  •  They're being willfully stupid (7+ / 0-)

    Clinging to anything that they can in an attempt to make Obama UnAmerican, because they just cant accpet that a African American now holds the Presidency.

  •  How about splitting out those two categories (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lying eyes, Hedwig

    The "not born in the US" and the "don't know".

    How many Southern whites fall into the "not born in the US" category?  Now check that against FoxNews viewership and viewersip of Lou Dobbs.

    Of the "don't know", how many have heard about the issue.  And how many are doing the nod-nod-wink-wink "Other people say...but I don't rightly know..."

    It would also be interesting to have a breakout by state.

    Finally, the question I asked yesterday.  Why is it that fewer bigots outside the South are birthers?  My guess is that it has to do with peer support of beliefs.  There is more pushback outside the South.

  •  No matter how many times I read this stuff (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dunvegan, leonard145b, bushondrugs

    I can't stop being surprised and disappointed at how pathetic these birthers and really the right/white wing of the repub party is.  What is the repub party going to do about this very serious problem?  

  •  Wrong. Birthers are overwhelmingly (7+ / 0-)

    Southern Whites.

    Not all southern whites are birthers. Please do not start another Civil War.

    •  70% is pretty overwhelming (7+ / 0-)

      That's not all southern whites, but it's a supermajority of them.

      You know someone named Arsenio Billingham? No.

      by Mikey on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:03:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You can do this math in ANY southern election (5+ / 0-)

      Since North Carolina was basically a tie,
      and North Carolina is 23% black, you can ask
      yourself how much of the non-black vote would've had to be for McCain in order for him to get the 49.9% that he got here.  We'll offset black Republicans by Hispanic Obama supporters to keep this simple.
      If McCain had to get his 50% of the whole state JUST from the 77% of it that is not black, he would've needed 50/77 or 64% of the white vote.  He got it.
      Obama won with 36% of the white vote here.  THAT
      IS ENTIRELY NORMAL.  As close as that race was, Obama
      could also have LOST with 36% of the white vote (as
      could any other Democrat, especially any Democrat other than Obama, who wouldn't automatically be bumping the black vote).  We routinely say around here that a Democrat needs 3/8 (37.5%) of the white
      vote to win.

      So if the rest of the south (other than Virginia,
      North Carolina, and Florida) is looking at 70% of their white voters voting Republican, then here, we
      are surviving because we have brought that down from
      70 to 64%.

      The important point is that this has absolutely NOTHING to do with birtherism.
      Birtherism is a fig leaf and an excuse.

      What is ACTUALLY GOING ON is that MOST WHITE SOUTHERNERS ARE BIGOTS.

      The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

      by ge0rge on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:23:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you a Southern white? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      andgarden, Dunvegan, Ezekial 23 20

      If so, then why all the denial?  The poll clearly shows that a supermajority of you refuse to believe the president was born here.  Now, I know you'll probably say thay you're not one of those people, and that you've never met any of them, and that you're a great big victim of liberal stereotypin'.  But still. .... 70%?  That's pretty shocking, isn't it?

      Blagojevich/Palin '12.

      by fou on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:26:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I would love to see a breakdown by age. (4+ / 0-)

    I bet its overwhelmingly people over 40 or 50. (I am 55, so that is not a dis.)

    •  It seems that there truly is a new south emerging (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lecsmith, Karma for All

      among the younger southerners.  The trouble is that the old south is still there occupying the same geography.  Humans being mortal, one can only hope that time will bring a significant change to the region.

      Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

      by lockewasright on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:31:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'd like to see that too. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lecsmith

      Given the fact that Southern whites (at least those who answer polls) tend to be older, I'd like to see how many people under 50 think he was foreign-born.

      How may of the poll respondents were 70-year-old retirees with nothing better to to do than to answer the obvious question with a stupid answer based on decades of ingrained opposition to the Civil Rights Act?

      Kos, start giving us age breakdowns as well.

      "It's said that the cream rises to the top. Unfortunately, so does the scum."

      by Black Brant on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:19:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hmm (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dunvegan, jayskew, FarWestGirl

    I know no statistician worth their salt would get this deep into numbers and say the result is meaningful, but here's my question:

    What if we parse further than "the South?"  What happens to that number if we really take only non-urban Southern Whites?  

    What if we knock out blue states like Virginia, North Carolina, and Florida?  

    What if we limit it to "Appalachia"?

    My hunch is that this stuff isn't endemic to the South - just as the Southern demographic is hijacked by Southern whites, I think that Southern whites' demo is hijacked somewhat by a near-universal hate coming from a few of its segments.

  •  there you go (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    darthstar, TFinSF

    yesterday they said I was wrong to draw this conclusion.

    An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

    by mightymouse on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:02:42 AM PDT

  •  Southern Culture (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    darthstar

    Skip any deep analysis of the mindset South of the Mason-Dixon line.To understand our Southern cousins just watch any movie made by Burt Reynolds. "Gator", was perhaps the definitive work done by Mr. Reynolds.

  •  An inherent distrust of knowledge amongst white (7+ / 0-)

    Southerners.  I'm a New Yorker who married a man from Mississippi, so I've learned this the hard way.  When I began "getting to know" his family they flooded me with misinformation about so many different things.  Let's take creationism.  When I provided them with scientific studies and evidence of evolution after having been told off and lectured about hell I was told point-blank by my step-mother-in-law that she didn't "care about history or who was here before, I know the Indians were here, and I don't really even care about that."

    They were calling Obama "Osama" from right after Kerry's nomination and his speech at the Democratic convention.  They don't trust books, studies, or anything of the like, they rely more on word-of-mouth and what their church and the people they went to high school with from their home towns have to say.  Thus has it always been, from what I've seen.  We are not talking about uneducated people either, we're talking about people that have gone to college and are CEO's or own their own businesses.  Their children attend southern universities and either embrace the ignorance or move very far away when they learn the truth (small percentage), as my husband did.  

    We can complain all that we want about their ignorance, but if they don't acknowledge facts as facts, scientific method, logic, and rely only on their clannish methods of acquiring and keeping their viewpoints, it's impossible to argue with them.  They will simply say we're elitists, yankees, whatever.  The resentment runs very deep in the south, make no mistake about it.  Some of my husband's friends and relatives have vowed never to come to northern states.  He was put in private "white" schools and when we visit there are homes with art depicting black slaves all over their walls, you know, the good old days.  The only way some of this is going to change is for a few more generations to die off.  

    •  and for new generations of Southerners to think (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      roadbear

      it ignorant and uncool.  We've got to get the kids to change it.

    •  Agree. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Karma for All, roadbear

      I've encountered the same attitudes among college educated Texans who called me a "yankee" even while I explained that my state in the Pacific NW wasn't involved in the Civil War. History lesson didn't work. If I didn't have the accent, so I was an object of fun. What really shocked me was the casual use of the N-word. When I demanded an explanation, their logic curled into crazy talk. How many good reasons can you come up with for using racist hate speech? I didn't know that there were any reasons.

      ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

      by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:04:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I had an hours-long heated argument with a well- (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        roadbear

        educated seemingly intelligent man from Jackson, Mississippi some years ago who was convinced that black people were genetically lazy.  No amount of putting forth evidence of the work that the black race did to actually build the entire south and a huge part of our country would make him believe differently.  He continuously spoke of anecdotal things, their performance on tests, their inability fo find and keep jobs,.  I was told I didn't understand black people because I wasn't from Mississippi.  It was like going down the rabbit hole.

        I do have hope that newer generations will some day abolish the cult-thinking that defies all logic there.  It's going to take a long time, but we have to start the conversations.  We have technology and can have our own "folks to folks" talk across the miles now.  We need a lot of people on the "inside" who know better to make break throughs as well because as outsiders people like me are immediately disregarded.  

      •  The point about the accent is interesting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jayskew

        In South Carolina I've asked many if they think I'm a Yankee (being from Seattle and all), and not once has anyone told me that I am.  They seem to set the E-W Mason Dixon line somewhere in the Midwest.  I've never asked my Texan friends so I don't know about that.

        I like lemurs -6.50, -4.82

        by roadbear on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 03:48:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Dats cuz we be stOopiD (7+ / 0-)

    down here.

    In South Carolina we get $1.33 for every dollar we pay in. It's easy to be a "fiscally conservative republican" when the low tax rate is covered by the very federal government you supposedly despise.

    Stop subsidizing stupidity and let the "conservatives" walk the walk.

    .
    Obama gets advice from Gov. Sanford

  •  Dumbfuckistan! -nt (5+ / 0-)

    I consider myself an Agnostic because the only thing I believe in less than God is certainty.

    by aztronut on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:05:38 AM PDT

  •  They say they don't know if he's a citizen. (5+ / 0-)

    But what they mean is, he's a n*****.

    •  I'm afraid that's exactly right (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ssgbryan, forester, Dunvegan, FarWestGirl

      When people answer a poll question like this, they aren't really addressing a point of fact, they are registering a sentiment.  White Southerners who say they don't believe President Obama was born in the US, or don't know, are really saying that they don't consider him "their" president, that they don't think a black man can legitimately be president of their country.  When they answer poll questions about evolution vs. creationism, they are really saying they want to believe in a God who cares about them -- the fact about the history of life on Earth don't come into it.  This is why piling up evidence about President Obama's birth certificate, or about the reality of evolution, won't do the trick -- it's not about facts or evidence, it's about registering rejection of what they find unacceptable.  And it's not just Southerners, though in this case the long history of racism in the South is what is driving the very high numbers in the South.

      •  Agreed. But I think it's a combination of racism (0+ / 0-)

        and parroting back our words about Bush not being legitimately elected president. Like kids in a schoolyard, they just throw the words back and forth because that's what you do with insults, regardless of their actual meaning or pertinence. Their racism rejects his father's side of the family and we called their president a fake, so they're doing the same and throwing it back.

        Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. The Druid

        by FarWestGirl on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:01:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't agree (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Feanor

          with the parroting point. I don't think they heard us at all about Bush. I agree that thinking with sentiment is a barrier.

          ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

          by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:07:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That contingent frequently recycles legitimate (0+ / 0-)

            accusations against their side and throws them back, mostly without any basis in fact. They heard us, they just didn't want to address the fact because they couldn't win the point. Look at them trying to turn around accusations of racisim against Sotamayor and Obama. The accuations of the Democrats being Fascists when they were much closer to the definition. They're projecting their own tendencies onto others and just parroting the words without real context or support. They're not thinking, they're reacting. Learning and applying education require thought, they're not thinking.

            Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. The Druid

            by FarWestGirl on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:34:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Southern Dems should turn this into a wedge issue (5+ / 0-)

    Force their GOP opponent to denounce anyone who denies that President Obama is not a natural born citizen. Failure to do so, is borderline treasonous, IMHO.

  •  But to point this out (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lockewasright, math4barack

    to direct attention to a politically significant FACT, becomes "bashing".  That sort of denial, exactly what good does it do, for who?  Being "reality-based" means accepting all facts, truths, however distasteful they may be to certain subgroups, however much they put presure on those subgroups to recognize that they are in large part (though NOT ALL, it's a statistical probabliulity, not an all-eoncompassing generalization) misguided, in error.

    "99% of the battles and skirmishes that we fought in Afghanistan were won by our side." ~ Marshall Akhromeyev

    by ActivistGuy on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:07:34 AM PDT

    •  A-FUCKING-MEN !! (0+ / 0-)

      This isn't the only topic on which some folks around here have decided to just dismiss data that doesn't fit their goals.

      It hurts our side's credibility every time someone does things that way.

      Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

      by lockewasright on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:34:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Abe Lincoln, you blew it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparkys Dad

    'Preserve the Union'?  Nice call, dope.  (I'm almost kidding.)  

    Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

    by Tuffie on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:07:51 AM PDT

  •  Understanding the motivation is key (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FarWestGirl

    Some of the public dialogue suggests that the reactions to Obama are rooted in fear - fear that Obama will treat them as many generations of whites treated African Americans.  Obama seems to be doing the right things, but I wouldn't expect progress to come quickly.

  •  Southern Whites (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missLotus, forester, Dunvegan, SherriG, jayskew

    As a white southern novelist, I have traveled extensively across the country to engage in book signings. I have found that segregation is prevalent in Wisconsin, Ohio, Virginia, New York, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Indiana (all northern states). Segregation also lives boldly in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Iowa, Montana, Nevada, and Colorado.
    In Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi, Tennessee, North & South Carolina, Louisiana, Texas, and Arkansas DE-segregation is the norm. Whites and blacks get along just fine here because we know each other as friends and equals. It is mostly the northern sector of our country that touts racial disharmony in the south when none of the detractors have ever visited or lived in these states. Polls can be taken in any specific area of any state to gain the pollsters' desired result. I also noticed more racially mixed couples, friends, and business associates interacting in the south than in northern or western states.
    factscount

    •  Segregation is not the same (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JC from IA

      as bigoted hate talk based on racial difference. Don't make the claim that the Pacific coast states are "just the same." We are not the same as the south no matter our racial mix.

      ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

      by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:10:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Racism (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jayskew

        By you not experiencing the kind of segregation which puts whites and blacks side by side in everyday life, you are absolutely right. You are not the same as the south. We are more tolerant and excepting of our fellow man regardless of race. You will find it hard to experience a white policeman demonstrating racism against a black suspect in the south, because most of the cop's friends on the Force are black. You speak of what you have not lived. I speak with experience, and the foresight to see racism being perpetrated by the racists. The exclusiveness of racism is not home to any one color nor any one region. It is a learned individual character flaw prefaced by social environment and fueled by small groups of instigators who profit from its existence.

        Quotations from right-wing or left-wing extremists are self-gratifying to the one who cannot absorb truth, because it does not conform to their practiced ideal.
        factscount

    •  Blacks who know their place (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JC from IA

      Don't give me that "my best friend's a negro" crap.  The blacks who wouldn't accept the monstrous caste system that has been the basis for Southern society for 300 years split for the north, leaving behind older, more submissive blacks and a handful of brave activists like Dr. King.  Whites down here are fine with black busboys, ditch-diggers, and secretaries as long as they don't talk back.  That is the whole point of institutionalized inequality; blacks and whites worked alongside each other even in Jim Crow days, as you know well, because the whites had power.  If they don't have power, they freak out and embrace hateful myths and barricade themselves, as it appears is now happening.

      Now that Northern blacks are moving to Southern cities, whites are encountering liberated blacks, and the older ones will hate them and avoid those cities like the plague.  That's why they want to kill Barack Obama - he doesn't know his place.

      There will be violence.  We just don't know how much.

      •  Stupidity abounds (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jayskew

        Wow, you sure are in another era. Before making statements, that you have no idea as to their validity, please visit several southern states. The so-called busboys, ditch-diggers and secretaries, now own their own businesses, head corporate entities, teach in higher learning institutions, and hold public office. And yes, have multiple friends of other races. You need to quit reading pre-civil war history as if it is present day life in the south. Try getting out more, with your eyes opened along with an attempt to retain cognizant thought of your surroundings. Your pre-assumed opinions are not based on any fact whatsoever, but are mired in the '50's. Try educating yourself with facts instead of rhetoric spewed by racially biased hate-mongers. I detect a racial tic in your speak, which only provides energy to those wanting racial divide. Most blacks and whites have no desire to propagate hatred, fear, or distrust between the races, but there are that small few of both colors who stoke at the fire of racism every chance they get. Judging from your opinions, you seem to be congregating with that group.
        factscount

    •  I'm sorry (0+ / 0-)

      and although I have been to 49 states (sorry Arkansas, you're next though) I will only comment on Washington and South Carolina because I live in both.  My Seattle neighborhood, which although in the city is more suburban in feel, is 30% minority.  My neighborhood in Greenville SC, which demographically is similar as far as being a relatively young professional neighborhood, is 80% white.  I work and have worked with blacks and Asians and Hispanics in Seattle.  To say that it only happens in the South is inaccurate.

      Seattle has elected a black mayor, a black county executive, an Asian governor.  There are successful people of all types here.  There are people of all types who are not successful as well.

      I have been involved in transportation issues and ride the bus and train.  All walks of life think nothing of riding public transit in Seattle.  In Greenville the bus is for "those people" and the routes show it.  No less than the mayor of Greenville told me on my last visit that this perception by whites was one of the biggest problems his city had in increasing transit use.

      I know first-hand what whites in Washington will say when they are alone, and what whites in South Carolina will say.  There's a lot of crap spewed in both cases.  To me the stuff in SC was (and is) shocking.

      I happily see a lot of what you say in the faces of the kids at the elementary school nearest our house in Greenville...but those were the same faces I saw at mine in Seattle 30 years ago.

      I appreciate your passion.  I think more Americans from other regions should visit the South and spend some time there.  I've learned a lot in my several years there, and had my eyes opened on a lot of things that I just took to be true as an outsider.  But your comment does not portray places that I know well in other parts of the country accurately any more than some of the anti-South comments from non-Southerners do.

      I like lemurs -6.50, -4.82

      by roadbear on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 04:11:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  roadbear comment (0+ / 0-)

        Apology accepted. I forward mine as well as to your extensive traveling history. It will be one more generation passed before racism completely dies of old age. That is sad, because racism could die out today if more people would just refuse to participate. In my area and others in the south I have visited, that practice is in force and civility thrives. They are the models to follow if only society would. I'm glad some of your misconceptions were remedied by your experiences here. I am afraid that some 'outsiders' still stereotype what once was, but now isn't. Although racism is alive everywhere you go, it is not the prevailing social acceptance anywhere.
        Thanks for the stimulative exercise of opinion and fact.  

  •  I believe in a higher power, I call it God. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FarWestGirl

    I just don't believe in organized religion. I don't need some book or person interpreting, or telling me what God wants me to do, or think. That's why God gave me a brain, to think for myself. Organized Religion has manipulated the masses for millennia. The one hope we have is that some of these young sheep in the Organized Religion flock may be waking up and realizing they are being manipulated. My parents tried to indoctrinate me into the Organized Religion masses, but one day I woke up and realized I was being led towards slaughter. I'm sure many others in the south are getting hip to what’s going on. Racism is not inherited, it is taught. The Birthers underlying beef is Racism!

    •  The sheeple don't want to be on the hook for (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      spadefba

      their mistakes. If they're just doing what the preacher told them was right, then it's all his fault that they did wrong, it wasn't their mistake. It's a way to avoid both thinking and responsibility.

      Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. The Druid

      by FarWestGirl on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:03:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ha ha (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    forester

    I completely doubt the poll results. Why? Because, unlike what everyone seems to be assuming, even white Southerners understand how polls work and they might even have a sense of humor.

    I believe that a substantial number of "no" and "not sure" responses were people just pulling the pollsters' leg.

    Greg Shenaut

    PS Not denying that there are racists and Obama-haters in the South. Hell, I'm from the South. But I'm betting that there are a hell of lot more kidders than there are racist bigots. (Or at least I hope so.)

  •  I suddenly find the idea.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...of secession more appealing.

    /snark

    OVER HERE: AN AMERICAN EXPAT IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE, is now available on Amazon US

    by Lupin on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:09:53 AM PDT

  •  That's not "number crunching" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayskew, missississy

    it's just back-of-the-envelope ecological inference.

    You paid for the damn poll, Markos.  Why don't you look at the crosstabs and give us some precise analysis?

    I hated Lou Dobbs before it was cool.

    by cardinal on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:10:52 AM PDT

  •  Where is the secessionist movement when you need (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparkys Dad, math4barack

    it?

    Hell, I'll even help build the fence along the Mason-Dixon line.

    It's often said that life is strange. But compared to what? --Steve Forbert

    by darthstar on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:10:54 AM PDT

  •  I don't like where this is going (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayskew, dhshoops

    Fight terrorism? How about prevent terrorism?

    by plok on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:13:16 AM PDT

    •  Agree... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      forester, jayskew, plok, FarWestGirl

      While it is an issue that's beneficial to the D party...it further stokes the flames of racial hate. Dangerous territory imo.

      "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are." --Homer Simpson

      by dhshoops on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:21:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Countering the negativity with positive proposals (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jayskew

      If you don't like where it's going, then shape the argument. Those of us who don't like the the negative attitude that so many are taking of "fuck 'em" and "let 'em secede" and "let 'em starve" should put forward some concrete positive proposals. I propose that we embrace the south and invest heavily in education and broadband internet infrastructure. Maybe we do a progressive volunteer peace corps to help wire schools and libraries for broadband internet, or to bring a ton of teachers and medical folks to rural areas. The south need to be brought back into the fold of the modern US. We're all in this together. Aren't we? :)

      Californians: The Courage Campaign is working for a better budget and changing the 2/3 budget rule. Go!

      by tmo on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 12:21:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Clearly ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril

    these people are getting their information from different sources than the rest of us. That's what allows the GOP to survive. Most of the US acknowledges that climate change is happening, that blacks are fully human, that Iraq didn't have WMD, and that Dubya was a lousy President.

    These southern whites appear to be trusting different sources of information than the rest of us. Limbaugh, Fox, and those horrendous emails that keep appearing in my inbox filled with drivel - they have fans everywhere, but only southern whites seem to have a majority who believe these alternative 'information' sources.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference.

    by blue aardvark on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:15:16 AM PDT

  •  People can lie to pollsters (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    What these southern white voters know, first and foremost, is that they really didn't want Obama to be president.  THEY WOULD RATHER BE THOUGHT stupid enough to be "birthers" THAN to stand publicly convicted out of their own mouths as THE RACISTS THAT THEY ARE.  So they say they doubt Obama's citizenship IN ORDER TO GIVE THEMSELVES COVER for their opposition to his being President.  They CAN'T just SAY, "Well, he might care more about taking care of black people than of me".  But the latter, not the "birther", is what's really going on.

    The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

    by ge0rge on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:17:19 AM PDT

  •  Thank God for the Civil Rights Act or they'd all (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, math4barack

    still be Democrats....or "dixicrats" that is.

    "We're the generation We can't afford to wait The future started yesterday and we're already late "~John Legend: If You're Out There

    by WeBetterWinThisTime on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:17:41 AM PDT

  •  I just should have KNOWN that it was too quiet... (6+ / 0-)

    ...after America elected a Black president.

    And here I thought things had evolved.

    It was just quiet for a while because the hard-core racists were in deep shock and waiting for someone to come along and invent a batshit insane rallying cry.

    2006 Sig: Obama 2008

    2009 Sig: "Thank you America." - Overheard from the rest of our planet.

    Facts are stupid things. -- Ronald Reagan

    by Dunvegan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:19:02 AM PDT

    •  Things HAVE evolved (9+ / 0-)

      A century and a half ago, slavery was legal.

      One hundred years ago, blacks who disrespected whites got lynched.

      Fifty years ago, blacks and whites couldn't intermarry, and Jim Crow laws held sway.

      Even twenty years ago, most people would have assumed a woman would be President of the U.S. before a man with black parentage.

      It's not a lot of time, really, on the scale of human evolution.  We do make progress.  But it's enormously painful, and the racism of course is still there.  

      It is scarcely possible to conceive of the laws of motion if one looks at them from a tennis ball's point of view. (Brecht)

      by dotalbon on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:25:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, I agree with you point for point. (0+ / 0-)

        Made the same arguments myself many times, actually.

        I guess I'm hyperventilating, here.

        What I should have said is "I thought we'd evolved quite a bit more that proves true due to the post-election quiet."

        Thank you for your post, dotalbon.

        2006 Sig: Obama 2008

        2009 Sig: "Thank you America." - Overheard from the rest of our planet.

        Facts are stupid things. -- Ronald Reagan

        by Dunvegan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:09:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  And it's worse than you think. They plot, they (6+ / 0-)

    have absolutely no conscience, they are arrogant in their belief and you cannot argue with them. What scares me the most is that they have a plan, I hear it every day, and I see it working. They have the best plan of divide and conquer that has ever been devised and we are letting them get away with it.

    The reason there are so many birthers here (I live in NC and we went for Obama) is the f---- evangelical church. I was actually in the middle of writing a diary about their big plan and how we have to stop it when I took a break to read what was on the front page and other diaries today. If we don't stop them, they will take back the Senate in 2010. And, if they do, if they keep on with their plan, we may really be done for. I mean it will be believe what they do, or the police come knocking on your door at night. People who say "It will never happen" try to figure out why President Obama can't get shit done for dealing with them. And the blue dogs have been slowly invading BOTH parties for years. These people plan and they are patient. They almost had it all when W got replaced by a human being. If they win the Senate they just keep on rolling.

    •  Well, I joined DailyKos to plot... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jayskew

      ...plot Democratic victories.

      Let's keep at it, Republicans of course would have a Southern strategy first.

      Doesn't mean our work and patience won't win out...after all, Democratic ideals are in the best interests of the majority of Americans. Even Southerners (unless they are one-issue bigots.)

      2006 Sig: Obama 2008

      2009 Sig: "Thank you America." - Overheard from the rest of our planet.

      Facts are stupid things. -- Ronald Reagan

      by Dunvegan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:12:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This isn't a regional issue (8+ / 0-)

    It's an education issue.  It's no accident that most of the Deep South spends very little per capita on education.   This is chickens coming home to roost.  

    It's not just the South, of course.  California in the coming years will be just as bass-ackwards as Mississippi and Alabama unless we find a way to fund education again.  

    It is scarcely possible to conceive of the laws of motion if one looks at them from a tennis ball's point of view. (Brecht)

    by dotalbon on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:21:33 AM PDT

    •  It is a educational issue... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmo, CrissieP

      ...that works hand-in-hand with a socio-economic issue.

      In Mississippi, the majority (if not vast majority) of upper middle class & rich whites attend private schools.  That means the class rooms are free to teach president Obama was born in Kenya, that evolution is a Satanist doctrine & that global warming is a hoax brought on by Al Gore having a bad acid trip.

      Furthermore, when so much of the population is holed up in private schools,  it erodes the tax base for public schools (plus keep in mind all the wingnut politicans in MS want to eradicate the Dept. of Education).

      So, yes, it's an educational problem, as well as a cultural problem.

    •  Oh come on. (3+ / 0-)

      You can't tell me that the legacy of the 'Wah of Nohthun Aggression' has nothing to do with these results.  I agree that education is a factor, but come on.

      Blagojevich/Palin '12.

      by fou on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:37:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry, that's too easy. (0+ / 0-)

      In these times of ever-increasing mass communications outlets, inferior education is hardly an excuse for not having a clue about reality outside your village.

      Perhaps you mean to refer to WHAT is being 'taught'?

  •  Poll the same Repubs Re: Arnold Schwarzennegger (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dunvegan, dotalbon

    I'm guessing more of them would think that Arnold was born in the U.S. than think Obama was.  I mean, his name is Arnold...

  •  Poll transparency? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, dotalbon
    I'm a little confused. I thought the big hallmark of the DailyKos poll was its transparency, yet the blurb said something about racial numbers not being posted. Has something changed, or has there always been a little murkiness once you start slicing and dicing the data.  (We only polled four one-armed albino violinists, but we don't want to admit it because it gives a bad impression with regard to our other more legitimate numbers.)

    See the losers in the best bars, meet the winners in the dives -Neil Young

    by danoland on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:23:52 AM PDT

    •  Take it up with the Washington Independent (0+ / 0-)

      or, didn't you read the link?  DK doesn't control what others write about a poll it commissioned, and can't be more transparent in its reporting of same than linking to the actual article.

      •  I thought DKos polls were so transparent (0+ / 0-)
        that there would never be an article about that them that said the poll didn't release all the information that someone could possibly want. It seems to me that if people are wanting more internals, the DKos poll should be giving them. Now if the numbers are there and they don't see them, that's another thing.

        See the losers in the best bars, meet the winners in the dives -Neil Young

        by danoland on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:25:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In other words, you didn't read the link. (0+ / 0-)

          The poll and the article written about the poll are not only two different things, they were published by two different publishers.  All the data on the poll itself were available here, and most likely still are.

          But, it is simply ridiculous whining to suggest that DK is not being 'transparent' because it somehow can't demand that others provide some unspecified data that DK had nothing to do with in the first place.

  •  Ok, I give up. (6+ / 0-)

    I'm white, Im southern, just come and kill me now.

    In honor of the Obama Administration's actions on GLBT issues during Pride month, Pride 2009 is proclaimed "Back of the Bus Pride Month".!

    by emsprater on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:23:55 AM PDT

    •  Get off your cross (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Karma for All

      and accept the reality.

      Ok, so I read the polls.

      by andgarden on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:27:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Can't .....get .... off ..... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dunvegan, fiddler crabby

        struggling .... hard .... to .... but .... the bonds  ..... I've ...been ... bound with .... are so ... fucking strong .....

        In honor of the Obama Administration's actions on GLBT issues during Pride month, Pride 2009 is proclaimed "Back of the Bus Pride Month".!

        by emsprater on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:08:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As Tom Waits says (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jayskew, brein

          "Come down off the cross, we can use the wood."

          But seriously, I don't buy this, "the south is different from everywhere else."  In the current political moment, southern and rural whites have been successfully cordoned off as a political force supporting some nasty politicians, but I don't see this as a permanent condition.  This very demographic has supported very progressive leaders and policies in the past, and I think it will again, with a lot of work.  (Working on that now... :)

          •  People who need the wood ... (0+ / 0-)

            shouldn't use it to build the crosses they tie others to in the first place.

            LBJ was a southern white man.  So was George Wallace.

            Current attempts by the powers that be to equate all southern whites as one while forgetting the other don't help the dialouge.

            In honor of the Obama Administration's actions on GLBT issues during Pride month, Pride 2009 is proclaimed "Back of the Bus Pride Month".!

            by emsprater on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:44:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The thing about 70% (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmo, brein

      of white Southerners being birthers that you should focus on is this:

      30% are not.  That's a lot of people in your category.  No one is criticizing you personally.

      THER EI SNO EXCUSE FOR THIS TOERTURE -9.00, -7.38

      by TFinSF on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:44:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Better to speak out and change things where you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brein

      are, if you can.

      •  apparently the kossian thought is ... (0+ / 0-)

        that this cannot be changed, so just own it, and self flaggelate forever.

        In honor of the Obama Administration's actions on GLBT issues during Pride month, Pride 2009 is proclaimed "Back of the Bus Pride Month".!

        by emsprater on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:10:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No. Own it. Change it. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tmo, Karma for All, brein, JC from IA

          It's really really really hard and it hurts to, for instance, try to change people's minds about the death penalty. But what is the alternative to trying to change the stoopid?

          ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

          by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:16:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, the South could use some self-flagelation, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tmo, brein

          IMO.  But since the perspective there is that outsiders are not to be listened to or trusted, it is unfortunately up to you to start cracking the whip.

          •  This isn't really a thread conducive to this, but (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tmo, emsprater, jayskew, brein, roadbear

            As I posted years ago, the problem in the South these days is I think, largely, an unsettled populace lacking progressive institutions.  The answer lies in growing these progressive institutions, but that's a fuckload of work.

            Here's my contribution:

            http://www.durhamcentralmarket.org/

            (our motto is, "Eat local, y'all!")

            But in the broader sense, is it any wonder that the three most progressive southern states (excluding the special case of Florida) -- NC, VA, and GA -- are the ones with some of the oldest, most well respected public universities in the country?

            And lastly, while I'm ranting -- always remember this: the South has endured higher levels of unemployment, job displacement, industrial loss, and rural poverty over the last half century than any other part of the country.  This is why my response to the wails of agony out of Detroit and Michigan are, well, sympathy, but also, welcome to the party, guys.

  •  Michele Bachmann, here in Minnesota... (6+ / 0-)

    went on TV and blurted out that Obama is "un-American." I'm pretty sure a lot of the people who responded "not sure" to the polsters were thinking the same thing. I don't think they truly disbelieve his birth, they just have this generalized --and visceral-- sense that he is un-American because that's how they consciously experience their racism.

    Listen up, guys! It turns out that if we don't hurry up and change the world, later it's the world that changes us. --Mafalda

    by forester on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:26:14 AM PDT

  •  This website... (5+ / 0-)

    ..needs to bring it down a notch when it comes to white Southerners.  Or, to put it another way, stop acting so flabbergasted that the Deep South is totally & unequivocally lost to Democrats.

    It seems the more diaries & front page articles that written that prove the South (especially the Deep South) is lost to Democrats, the more this website freaks out when the 2,765th Daily Kos article is released reiterating the Democratic party has 0 chance of making in-roads into the Deep South.

    Here's Daily Kos's current relationship with white Southerners:

    1. The vast majority of white Southerners (especially white Southern men)  will always be Palin-esque wingnuts.  There is absolutely nothing Daily Kos can do to "fix" this.  
    1. Thankfully, the Democratic party does not need white Southerners to win national elections.
    1.  Once white Southerners,  in presidential elections,  voted almost exclusively on the abortion issue (along with the Three G's); now, by all indications,  voting abortion, God, guns & gays has taken a backseat to voting race (at least in terms of a black man running for president).
    1. According to the data, the vast majority of white Southerners not only do not like Obama, or Obama's politics, they also think his presidency is  illegitimate.  Allow me to reiterate:  There is nothing Daily Kos can do to change this.
    1.  50 State Strategy or no, due to pragmatism, the Deep South must now be all but ignored as America moves forward into the 21st century.  Of course, that means a wilderness experience for Southern minorities, sane white Southern women & the small minority of Southern white men like myself who are not fucking nuts.

    Lastly, I would not worry about any more talk about succession.  Because,  for all pratical intents and purposes, white Southerners have already seceded from the Union (except when their Recovery Act-hating governors prance around their various states holding up giant Recovery Act checks).

    •  I do not think anyone suggests we give up.... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pd, ssgbryan, wyvern, JC from IA

      ...the south.

      But the fact is the people there elect a high amount of bigots to office, the statistics show what they show, and it is not pretty!

      Recognizing the problem there politically for the Democrats is not basing the entire south, nor calling for us to let it go and act as though it is not worth fighting for.

      Of course there are many progressives living in the south, just NOT ENOUGH to change the attitudes that would enable so many people to consider a wacky accusation such as Obama was born in Kenya.

      While the South is not the only place with bigots, the truth is, there are more of them percentage-wise there than anywhere else.

      Donate at www.afghans4tomorrow.com and help a child learn to read.

      by kimoconnor on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:44:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, the stats... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brein

        ...reveal an uncomfortable number of white Southerners think our current president is illegitimate.

        That means, as I noted above, at least symbolically, the South has seceded from the Union.

        That means the minority of Southerners grounded in reality must now suffer because a large majority of Southerners reject reality.

        And I do not think there is anything Daily Kos can do to remedy that.

    •  Ignoring the wingnuts is really dangerous, they (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ssgbryan, wyvern

      breed and recruit. For years we sat by and didn't address any of the right wing crap because it was just too stupid to give the time of day to. So Reagan, the neocons and the evangelicals got away with shit and got entrenched because we abandoned the field. Well, that didn't work out too well because the people who aren't too bright or educated heard the indoctrination with no rebuttal. And they didn't see our silence as the subjects' being too stupid to address, they saw it, and it was spun as, they were right and we didn't have an answer. So they enlarged their foothold. As timewasting and distasteful as arguing with them is, we can't leave their stupidity as the only thing being heard by those growing up. They breed and recruit. We need to keep recruiting, too. We may not change the minds of those we're arguing with, but we can catch a significant portion of the young who are listening.

      Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. The Druid

      by FarWestGirl on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:21:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, that whole.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FarWestGirl

        ..breeding & recruiting thing is out of our jurisdiction (especially the breeding).

        Thankfully, unlike the 1990's,  we now have left leaning websites like Daily Kos, Olbermann, Maddow, Maher, Comedy Central, etc.

        I think one reason Southern whites so ardently embrace what they embrace is because, these days, liberals have a powerful message machine in place.  And that scares the shit out of them.

    •  Oy. Must... correct... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wyvern

      First off, every use of "vast majority" here is way over the top.  As I've argued elsewhere here, lumping "don't know" in with the birthers is just silly.  Apathy there is probably a much better explanation.

      That said...

      Re: #1 -- Southern whites have supported progressive policy in the past, and if the political climate is right, will do so again.  Fatalism here is unwarranted.

      Re: #2 -- I suppose the Democratic party can squeak by nationally without the South, but it's a much better strategy to strategically target VA, NC, GA, and FL, a well as continue to make the case in the rest of the south.

      Re: #3 -- This is just wrong on so many levels.  When did southerners exclusively vote on abortion, particularly compared to the mountain west and the Ohio valley (including PA)?  Race hsa been a dominant theme in Southern voting (and to a lesser extent, voting all over the country) for 50 years now.  White southern voters are currently voting on a sense of insecurity and instability.  That can lead anyone to some very nasty voting habits.

      Re: #4 -- See "vast majority" complaint.

      Re: #5 -- I can almost agree with this one, as you make the important distinction between the Deep South and the south as a whole.  However, to say that the "Deep South must now be all but ignored" makes a very Conservative mistake -- it translates the "Deep South" as "white southerners."  There are more African-Americans living in the Deep South than in any other part of the country.  Because of this, it only takes small inroads into the white population to have at least modest electoral success in some congressional districts.  Add to this that southern states are currently receiving a huge share of latino immigrants, and you can see that writing the states off electorally is very premature.

      One last thing -- we all agree that the GOP is becoming a regional party.  We also agree that the modern Republican coalition is an unholy alliance that needs to be crushed if at all possible.  I don't see the GOP's isolation in the south as a reason to wash our hands of it.  I see it as a reason to mount an electoral assault and blow their base out from under them.  We have them cornered -- now let's finish them off.

      •  GA is deepest south: -4 for Obama 2008; +? 2012 (0+ / 0-)

        Stereotypes don't win elections for Democrats.  Getting out the vote and building organizations on the ground do.  OFA is doing that.  What are the south-bashers on dailykos doing?

        "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

        by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 04:24:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Donating money to progressive candidates (0+ / 0-)

          Are you suggesting I move from San Francisco to Georgia?

          I think there is a lot of denial on the part of some in the South. Denial that many of their neighbors ARE the kind of people who would believe the birther crap.

          Donate at www.afghans4tomorrow.com and help a child learn to read.

          by kimoconnor on Mon Aug 03, 2009 at 08:40:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  well - not to ignore the 50 state strategy... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ssgbryan, wyvern, brein

      but my white Southern relatives are caught in a web of religious fundamentalism that includes a lot of racism, sexism, personal fantasies about independence on their islands of purity - so long as there are people of color to do the dirty work without complaint. Of course, the topper is denial of all the above.

      And obviously, there are lots of white Southerners that don't fit this constellation of values, but the very large groups that receive repeated email blasts do share racist, sexist, and patriarchal values.

      I did not find any positive response, no matter how well researched the argument - esp. wrt to this birther fantasy.

  •  Southern Whites (0+ / 0-)

    Still living in the Confederacy and the Sunbelt Aura of 35 years ago- guess what southern whites- its all over!

  •  I think you're just instigating for a nice, juicy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    crop of hate mail-apalooza, kos.  Nice work, though.

    It took me three hours to figure out FU meant Felix Unger! -O. Madison In honor of kos' Saturday hate mail-a-palooza

    by Meggie on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:30:15 AM PDT

  •  i just hate (0+ / 0-)

    that the lunatic fringe is getting this much attention from anyone.

  •  I am shocked, shocked (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dunvegan, happymisanthropy

    that the folks who brought us slavery, sedition, rebellion, Civil War, Jim Crow, George Wallace, Selma, Birmingham, Philadelphia MS, and the KKK should now bring us...this. If we'd had some warning it would have been at least courteous.

  •  Whoa...so when I say "lunatic fringe" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    I'm insulting 2/3 of all white Southerners. Hm.

    What is this? Are you some kind of hypnotist? Waving your powers around...

    by Muskegon Critic on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:35:20 AM PDT

  •  this is why the next big fight: Education (4+ / 0-)

    We need to educate people!!! Internet access available everywhere - more broadband. When you have an old school education system, no internet and only right wing radio stations, (like most of Appalachia and other southern areas) this is what happens.

    •   Bring the internet into rural areas. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmo, jayskew

      Give people sources of information other than their church and AM talk radio.

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

      by missLotus on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:33:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  first you gotta be skeptical... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmo, ssgbryan

      all this stuff is spreading like wildfire by email - because my otherwise fairly well educated relatives in the south buy into it. Someone from their church says it - they believe it...

      and until skepticism enters, there's no breaking the wall of winger beliefs.

  •  Ah racism. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, ozsea1

    She's always been such a good little whore.  But now she realizes that all that abuse got her was a n***** president who wasn't even born here.  Well you know what they say ... hell hath no fury ...  Now she could give a fuck if the wife finds out.

    Blagojevich/Palin '12.

    by fou on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:42:01 AM PDT

  •  Odd thing. I live in Alabama , know lots of white (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ginatx, jayskew

    people. Two of my grandparents were white. Talk to maybe a dozen white people in Alabama a day , sometimes many more. Don't know a single one who doesn't think this "Obama not born in America" is idiocy. Seems to be mostly a retired military officer using  a California attorney to file insane lawsuits , and the whole lunatic deal being pushed by the media outlets owned by an Australian fascist.
    Who , by the way , has an American citizenship that was approved so quickly there is no doubt it was bought. quid pro quo , you might think.Too many people on this site seem to have run out of ability to do something constructive , feel they are winning war against bigotry , etc. by expressing bigotry toward groups not popular with their own chosen little clusters of lunacy.

    •  Calling out bigots does not make me a bigot (6+ / 0-)

      I and everyone here knows that not all Southerners are bigots or stupid and in fact there are plenty of progressives there.

      The facts however are facts. Every election and poll shows that bigotry and religious fanatics do make up a disproportionate amount down there compared to the rest of the country.

      Pointing out facts about people in a region of the nation not make me a bigot. That is what the right wing says, not progressives.

      Donate at www.afghans4tomorrow.com and help a child learn to read.

      by kimoconnor on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:55:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Stereotyping from your borrowed bigotry does. NT (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jayskew
        •  Are you suggesting, then, that the numbers lie? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kimoconnor, TFinSF

          If so, do you have anything more than anecdotal evidence to back up that suggestion?

          •  I suggest that I will believe my own eyes and (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jayskew

            ears , and I am here. You may or may not be. And that people use numbers to lie innumerable times each day. There's money in it,polling. Love the way a differing opinion is often labelled "anecdotal" , with the  subtext of barely avoiding "lie". The venom in the pronouncements in so many of the comments by the selfrighteous Profeessors Knowmuch would be startling had they not been growing in frequency for many months.

            •  Unless you talk with thousands of people a day... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catte Nappe, kimoconnor, brein, JC from IA

              ...Abra, the poll has more data that any single person. We all have limited exposures of one type or another.

              I live in San Francisco where we voted over 84 percent Obama. I'd have a hard time finding a Birther with a dowsing rod and a bloodhound.

              So I can't say my personal experience is indicative of all Californians...as southern California is vastly more conservative. Just because I don't talk to those people doesn't mean they don't exist.

              But pollsters do cover vast populations. And the poll is what it is. Facts are hard things, liberal bias and all (notice my sig.)

              2006 Sig: Obama 2008

              2009 Sig: "Thank you America." - Overheard from the rest of our planet.

              Facts are stupid things. -- Ronald Reagan

              by Dunvegan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:21:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not to mention elections (0+ / 0-)

                Look at the people elected there, locally in particular.

                I think one of the reasons things change so slowly there is party due to the refusal of so many to even admit the problem!

                Donate at www.afghans4tomorrow.com and help a child learn to read.

                by kimoconnor on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:24:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  so your anecdotes are good and his are not? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Abra Crabcakeya

                I live in San Francisco where we voted over 84 percent Obama. I'd have a hard time finding a Birther with a dowsing rod and a bloodhound.

                I thought that about deep blue Austin Texas until I happened to be trying to cross the Lamar St. Bridge on April 15th this year, and motorcycle cops made me wait while two lanes coming the other way were filled iwth teabaggers.

                If you can't find birthers in S.F. you just haven't looked.

                For that matter, Orly Taitz, queen of the birthers, lives in California and brags
                about being friends with Michelle Bachman of MN.

                http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

                Why kos is elevating a poll question about a fringe issue to aid his daily harping on the south is mysterious to me.

                If you really want to find out where the GOP's remaining base is and why it is, you need to look at inland California, Utah, Wyoming, MN-06, WNY, etc. as well as the south.  Choosing to look solely at hte south because it's a convenient census region doesn't really aid that.

                Discounting what people on the ground in the south say helps even less.

                For that matter, what did you actually do today to help?

                "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." --Hypatia of Alexandria, c.400

                by jayskew on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 04:16:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No...I'm saying my ancedotes would be bad... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JC from IA

                  ...as my experience is doomed to be skewed by localism.

                  As are many personal experiences when held up to a scientifically controlled poll.

                  If I wanted to know what Californians are thinking, I'd go with the poll results...not what "many of my local SF neighbors are saying."

                  2006 Sig: Obama 2008

                  2009 Sig: "Thank you America." - Overheard from the rest of our planet.

                  Facts are stupid things. -- Ronald Reagan

                  by Dunvegan on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:49:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  In other words, 'No, I don't.' (0+ / 0-)

              'Anecdotal' means just that. You simply do not have enough data to support a conclusion, and instead choose to rely on the relative handful of people you come into contact with.  And, even that small group is likely to be at least partially self-selected, ie: you have a hand in choosing to be in contact with them.  IOW, you are trying to extrapolate a regional trend based solely on personal experience.

        •  Statistics are what they are (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dunvegan, JC from IA

          And I plainly said I know not all Southerners are bigots.

          But put this poll aside and there is still a lot of evidence in election results, local legislation, etc. that proves there is a problem in the South.

          Donate at www.afghans4tomorrow.com and help a child learn to read.

          by kimoconnor on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:07:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Divide and conquer (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayskew, happymisanthropy

    For Corporatism to continue its success, they will divide and conquer.

    This birther/Southerner dialogue continues day after freakin' day.

    Meanwhile, the Bluedogs betray us on healthcare reform and the Obama admin waffles in most Clintonesque fashion.

    C'mon peeps.

  •  The opposite of the Bill Richardson effect (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mkinny, ssgbryan, Catte Nappe

    If Bill Richardson been elected President, he might have been subject to the same type of birther conspiracy (since his parents lived in Mexico City when he was born, but his mother came up to the U.S. for his birth).  However, because his name is "Bill Richardson" rather than "Guillermo Rodriguez", it would have blown over much more quickly.

    There's a willful ignorance about Obama's birthplace in part because of his name.  I'm pretty sure it's no more sophisticated than that.  People get asked in a poll "do you think 'Barack Obama' was born in the United States?", and they answer "not sure".  It's not necessarily because they're even aware of the birther conspiracy, it's because they hear that name and say "that doesn't sound like someone who was born here".

    That's what makes the Republican party's position on this more insidious.  They are coasting downhill on the ignorance of their base, who also probably also isn't even aware of the constitutional requirement that the president be born a citizen.

    •  my suspicion - and I wish Kos's analyst (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ssgbryan

      would pursue it, is that fundies are at the heart of it.

      I notice the numbers are somewhat higher in the West where many people from the South relocated during the Depression.

      It would be interesting to see - if the sample sizes are large enough - how race and geography in the West are related to this delusion.

      Similarities in attitudes on the death penalty were identified - large populations of Southern Whites favor it, as do Whites in areas where Southern "expats" live in California.

  •  Assholishness Just Emerged from the Closet in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JC from IA

    many places in the past few decades in the U.S., but it has controlled the bullhorns, ballot boxes, and courthouses in the deep south for more than a century.

  •  Time to Stop the redistribution of wealth (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Karma for All, brein, roadbear

    I live in NJ, one of the wealthiest states in the nation and also one of the heaviest taxed.  I've often read that for every $1 we send to the fed, we get about $.54 back whereas states in the "poor" south get upwards of $1.50 back for every $1.  Why are we consistently penalized for this?  I have friends and aquaintances that go to North Carolina and say how cheap their property taxes are, why live here, etc.  Why am I subsidizing these people who in turn vote against everything us blue states believe in?  Maybe if they carried their own weight, my tax bill would go down and theirs would possilby make the playing field a little better.  They contribute nothing to this country other than retarded thinking (birthers, bible belt, concealed gun carrying, etc.)  They keep voting for these morons even though their standard of living goes nowhere.. unbelievable..

    •  Also Eastern Washington vs. Western Washington (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jayskew, roadbear

      The counties on the other side of the Cascade Mountains get more state dollars, I've heard, and fight the interests of the urban pacific coast in the WA legislature. I wish we could unite our state across the "Cascade Curtain" with a bullet train, like what France has. Then, we could visit each other. Just sayin' - If we were physically closer it would help.

      ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

      by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:26:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It would take some of the idiot Dems (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brein

        in the state capitol to actually support rail, transit and other "Seattle" values.  Frank Chopp and Christine Gregoire have done us no favors whatsoever.  Portland has a great rail system because their state government supports it.  Seattle is just starting (a good start, but still) because exactly $0.00 comes from the state.

        Some of the Dems in Olympia are idiots.  Just about all of the GOPpers are--there just aren't that many of them.

        I like lemurs -6.50, -4.82

        by roadbear on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 04:24:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not all (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brein

      Georgia, Texas and Florida are "donor" states, contributing more than they receive. But New Jersey certainly does "donate" a good bit.
      http://www.scribd.com/...

      "People who have what they want are fond of telling people who haven't what they want that they really don't want it." Ogden Nash (on universal health care?)

      by Catte Nappe on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:51:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Faux Factor (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe

    What I'd like to see is the crosstabs on a poll that contains the following two questions (worded up in proper poll format, of course):

    A) Do you believe President Barrack Obama was born in the United States?

    B) State your primary source of national news (specific name of television network, newspaper, website, etc):

    How much do you want to bet that the correlation between primary news source: Fox News and Birtherism is 90 plus percent?  

    Member of the ACLU, the NRA, and the Democratic Party.

    by pHr33z on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:23:44 AM PDT

  •  Better question: (0+ / 0-)

    Do you accept the evidence of Barack Obama's birth certificate?

    ...their struggles for access, the clever things they say, the trappings of their wealth, the techniques by which they have monetized their power. ThomasFrank

    by mrobinson on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:27:38 AM PDT

  •  How dare you acknowledge the implications of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Karma for All

    what these southerners have revealed about themselves through their own testimony in responding to poll questions.  To do so makes you an evil south basher.  /s

    It's rediculous.  

    Nobody else answered the pollsters' questions for these people.  If the results reveal something negative, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

    Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

    by lockewasright on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:28:55 AM PDT

  •  Hey here's a question. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Karma for All

    What's the average age of a white Southerner?  If most of them are boomers, then hopefully this will change when they die out.

    Blagojevich/Palin '12.

    by fou on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:30:38 AM PDT

  •  Imaginary birther scene (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe

    So what would have the Obama family looked like, if the birther scam were true.
    I can imagine Obama at 14 coming home from school and teling his mom "We started a band in school, we're going to practice and after we graduate we going on tour, I'm going to be a world famous rock star",
    His mom looks sternly and issues forth
    "Oh no you're not, after your father and I spend so much time forging your birth certificate, you're going to be President!,
    I, I did NOT spends hours on a plane from Africa to Hawaii right after giving birth in order for you to be some kind of musician,  you are going to be President"

  •  Give 'em a little credit... (0+ / 0-)
    ...they may not be sure where Obama was born, but they're quite certain the earth is 6000 years old.

    "To hell with the rich. They made me sick." - Philip Marlowe

    by Roddy McCorley on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 10:42:46 AM PDT

  •  After we're done South-bashing, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nclefty

    should we now paint a broad brush on Kossacks, a great percentage of who bought into the crap that Trig Palin was actually Bristol Palin's baby.

  •  BIRTHERS - A LEGACY OF DYSFUNCTION (0+ / 0-)

    Because the more healthily socialized and "politically" aligned factions of today's Republican Party are pulling away and or rejecting the more dysfunctionally socialized factions aligned by their "emotional/psychological" ignorance, fears and hatreds, the intellectual dishonesty and repressed emotional damage of primarily southern core Republicans is being exposed to the point that their existence is impossible to hide or deny.

    But those kinds of people have never changed and have always been there. They've never evolved in the first place, so they can't now be devolving. They are merely no longer as greatly outnumbered by and or obscured by the Republicans who have evolved and are evolving beyond their poisonous nurturing and cultural isolation.

    There are many more pockets of dysfunction and isolation in southern rural America than those of us who have either never had to survive in one of those environments or who survived by getting out of Dodge.

    The evolved Republicans who are most critical of their core haters/nutjobs are the same ones who manipulated and exploited them to gain and hold on to political power. The Republican Party ISN'T DEVOLVING, it's simply REAPING WHAT IT HAS SOWN.

  •  I'm not even going to go any further (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Abra Crabcakeya

    I'm sure that this thread is going to go into a bitter flame war. I'm just going to put on flame retardant.

  •  As a southerner I take offense!!!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    math4barack

    If Obama doesnt have something hate-able, we create one, what part of that strategy dont you understand?

  •  Kos' obsession (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soccergrandmom, jayskew, Fargopher

    Markos is pretty obsessed with this "birthers" thing. No one outside Daily Kos really cares.

    Political Compass score: 5.25 E, -4.26 S

    by hippykicker on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:05:58 AM PDT

    •  No. You are wrong Kos is merely doing what he (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmo, jayskew, Fargopher

      must do to keep this site competitive. And that is to use slow days like saturdays wo raise traffic by stirring up controversial subjects to taunt the hoi polloi into raising the hit level.

      But, I am sure you are all sophisticated enough to know what goes on here these days. DK is competing with Huff Post, Salon, FireDogLake, Politico. Andrew Sullivan etc. all high traffic blogs and needs to keep the stas up so advertisers wil play to place thei advertisements here and thus allow the site to continue.  Not to mention the mass media, the despised newspapers etc. all of which have ventured into the once sacrosanct air of cyberspace and are all blogging away like mad.

      Nothing wrong with that. That's the good old American capitalist way.

    •  Yeah, that must be why it's all over the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Paul Goodman, fhcec, brein

      broadcast and cable networks, and Congress has at least one bill pending.  All because of Kos' obsession.

  •  Would love to see a follow-up question (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayskew

    "How closely are you following this?"

    or

    "Does this concern you?"

    or

    "Do you care?"

    I suspect a very high number of the "don't knows" would be associated with the "don't cares."

    •  its also quite possible that not all the reviled (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Abra Crabcakeya

      'low education' voters, black, white, hispanic or whatever, don't know that Hawaii is a state of the United States. Not all Hawaians are happy with that fact either and believe that the statehood was bought and sold with Dole pineapple and sugarcane money.

      The real answer is not that a majority didn't know where he was born, but a majority don't give a dman either.

      why are people hellbent on creating racial and class and geographic divisions?  Is this what the election was all about. Shame.  It's disgusting.

  •  The bottom line is... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan, kitebro, brein

    many of these Southerners just haven't gotten over the fact a black man is in charge now. Or, in reaction to the shock they are apparently still dealing with that they cannot overcome, to quote Roland Martin, "How is this black guy all of the sudden running the country"?!

    "That's quite a jump. But you keep it up, I'm sure one day you'll clear that shark."

    by Steve In DC on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:15:01 AM PDT

  •  Then if you exclude Florida and Austin, Tx ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jayskew, MKSinSA, math4barack

    the percentage of southern whites with self-induced psychosis is well above 70%.

    If I wanted Baucus to be Grassley I would have voted for McCain.

    by chicago jeff on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 11:51:36 AM PDT

  •  Civil War Two (0+ / 0-)

    This is very serious.

    Right now, the people who doubt that Obama is really president - and thus that they must obey the American government - is similar to the number of Americans who supported secession in 1860.  And yes, they happened to be in the South, and they got 600,000 people killed and nearly destroyed our country.  So let's stop pretending that Kos' poll is not a sign of a danger to our future.  All the defenders of the South in this thread, you know there were Northern racists in 1860, but THEY didn't fire on Fort Sumter.

    During the 1860 campaign, the Southern media smeared Lincoln in ways reminiscent of the smears coming out against Obama right now.  I read an article from an 1860 Southern newspaper claiming that emancipation would lead to black men raping white women in the streets.  It was also rumored that Lincoln was a "half-ni**er".

    How can we not be alarmed?  A handful of nuts seem to be able to defeat the entire US Air Force and take down the World Trade Center.  Guerrillas in Iraq were able to bog down 160,000 US troops for years even though they spent most of their time fighting each other.  Ironically, the right-wing corporate fascists surrendered our national budget to the war machine, and as soon as that war machine is proven to be completely incompetent in fighting guerrillas, many of those same fascists are now on Fox News trying to talk white racists into a guerrilla war.

    No, the corporations don't want the breakup of their American empire, but they want to be rid of Obama in 2012.  So they work behind the scenes to provoke right-wing militias and terrorism, then proclaim in their captive media that it's all Obama's fault for being too radical.  They've even tried this before, with the DuPont plot in 1934, where the rich planned to create a fascist militia to extort FDR into gutting the New Deal.

    The problem is, once the bombings and assassinations and cyberattacks and sabotage start, no one will be able to stop it, and I for one will do my damnedest to fight back corpse for corpse.  You are all underestimating the sheer cruelty of white supremacists and the size of the Southern support base that will protect them from counterinsurgency efforts.  Frustration among the victims will lead to retaliation.  Then (enough) white Southerners will feel they can only ensure their safety by terrorizing blacks into moving North.  This is what happened in Iraq, in Bosnia, in Rwanda, among ethnicities that had lived together for centuries.

    This danger justifies hurt feelings now.  If you love the South, don't let it off the hook and ignore the signs of a conflict that will leave it a shambles.  Tell your racist friends and relatives that if they take up arms against the wimpy, pinko Obama dictatorship (?), they are taking up arms against you and you will learn to use a gun to fight back.  Remind them what will happen if they're as wrong about Yankee cowardice as your ancestors were in 1860.  Point out to them that even if they won, they would either have to enslave Southern blacks & Hispanics in an apartheid police state due to their rapid growth, or let them leave and ruin the Southern economy.

    These people think if they yell outrageous lies loudly enough they can terrorize the majority of Americans without having to suffer the consequences of war.  Don't leave them with any illusions.  Don't leave yourself with any either.

    •  Ok, get a grip will you? (0+ / 0-)

      No way any of those overfed relatively pampered slobs are going to come up with the dedication and sheer toughness to make any kind of real challenge to the governmental powers that be, ok?  There may be a few that were military and retain some sort of fitness but the rest have swigged back too many brews and ingested too much brisket since their heydays to be anything but loudmouthed loungers and occassional reinactors of their ancestors' battles.

      I remember seeing a picture of a Civil War reinactor next to a picture of a real Civil War soldier.  That is really all you need to see to put your fears at rest.

  •  pls. help, my Connecticut sis is.. (0+ / 0-)

    ..a serious birther. East-Coast born, raised and educated (Wesleyan).

    She won't stoop to consider accepting even the much-discussed "long form" certificate.

    << (kos comment I copied) Here is a link to the long form BCs of twins born the day after Obama in the same hospital <br>(/koscomment) >>

    "..in the same hospital?"  Which hospital is that?  his family members contradict one another.  We don't know which hospital and there's only two.

    See?

    There's lots of reasons to get your child, who is going to live in America with you, an American birth certificate instead of one from Africa.  geesh.  It's really simple.  A polygamist from a third world country abandons you with an Kenyan born infant.  You might just decide to make a belated application --LIKE THE STATE YOU LIVE IN SAYS YOU CAN-- for a birth certificate TO MAKE THINGS EASIER ON YOU  ...    It's the obvious thing to do if you don't mind lying.  Stanley probably just presented herself and her baby to the official and said it was a home birth.  There's no conspiracy by dozens of people.  I'm not saying it necessarily happened that way.  But that's what we HAVE birth certificates for !!!!  To prove the place of birth.

    Another possibility: I refer to this again:
    In 1982, the vital records law was amended to create a fifth kind of “original birth certificate”.  Under Act 182 H.B. NO. 3016-82, “Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that the proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.”  In this way “state policies and procedures” accommodate even “children born out of State” (this is the actual language of Act 182) with an “original birth certificate on record.”  So it is even possible that the birth certificate referred to by Dr Fukino is of the kind specified in Act 182.

    Citizenship in the early sixties was not transferable through such a young citizen parent if there was a foreign father AND the child was foreign born.  See:

    In 1961, the year that Barack Obama was born, under Sec. 301 (a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, Ann Dunham could not transmit citizenship of any kind to Barack Obama.

    “ 7 FAM 1133.2-2 Original Provisions and Amendments to Section 301

    (CT:CON-204; 11-01-2007)

    “a. Section 301 as Effective on December 24, 1952: When enacted in 1952, section 301 required a U.S. citizen married to an alien to have been physically present in the United States for ten years, including five after reaching the age of fourteen, to transmit citizenship to foreign-born children. The ten-year transmission requirement remained in effect from 12:01 a.m. EDT December 24, 1952, through midnight November 13, 1986, and still is applicable to persons born during that period.

    “As originally enacted, section 301(a)(7) stated: Section 301. (a) The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: (7) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States by such citizen parent may be included in computing the physical presence requirements of this paragraph.”

    (kos comment I forwarded) his father's name is on the record he released (2+ / 0-)
    the only differences between the record he released and the original longform are the longform shows hospital, doctor, whether he was a twin, and ages and occupations of parents.(/koscomment)

    Hospital and doctor:   Right. Witnesses.    Occupation of parents: Right. Obama Sr. could have been listed as a foreigner on an ambassadorial visa/passport (since he was airlifted out of Kenya on a military plane at the behest and selection by a foreign prime minister to train his newly forming government.)  If Sr. was on an ambassadorial passport, Jr. is not considered born naturally into allegiance of America, but, instead, under natural allegiance to Kenya.

    I am freaking out at this point. I CAN'T descend into her madness, but I need to respond and rebut succinctly in some way.. any suggestions??

    I know from experience that trying to counter each claim is pointless. How do you guys deal with a relative who Used To Be Normal (and even "liberal" once upon a time)?

    I thought it might be useful to autopsy this mail I just got.. precisely because it's **not** really coming from the classic quarters named in the topic.

    WTF is this "airlift" deal??

    The "family member[S!!]" I know refers to the Kenyan granny misquoted by people looking to twist her words. This is ALL SO TIRESOME!!

    •  more! and dig the last bit of wacko projection (0+ / 0-)

      BC2.  In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then all that was required was that one of the parents send in a birth certificate to be filed.  The birth certificate could be filed by mail.  There appears to have been no requirement for the parent to actually physically appear before “the local registrar of the district.”  It would have been very easy for a relative to forge an absent parent’s signature to a form and mail it in.  In addition, if a claim was made that “neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.” (Section 57-8&9)   I asked the Dept of Health what they currently ask for (in 2008) to back up a parent’s claim that a child was born in Hawaii.  I was told that all they required was a proof of residence in Hawaii (e.g. a driver’s license [We know from interviews with her friends on Mercer Island in Washington State that Ann Dunham had acquired a driver’s license by the summer of 1961 at the age of 17] or telephone bill) and pre-natal (statement or report that a woman was pregnant) and post-natal (statement or report that a new-born baby has been examined) certification by a physician.  On further enquiry, the employee that I spoke to informed me that the pre-natal and post-natal certifications had probably not been in force in the ‘60s.  Even if they had been, there is and was no requirement for a physician or midwife to witness, state or report that the baby was born in Hawaii.

      BC3. In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then, up to the first birthday of the child, a “Delayed Certificate” could be filed, which required that “a summary statement of the evidence submitted in support of the acceptance for delayed filing or the alteration [of a file] shall be endorsed on the certificates”, which “evidence shall be kept in a special permanent file.” The statute provided that “the probative value of a ‘delayed’ or ‘altered’ certificate shall be determined by the judicial or administrative body or official before whom the certificate is offered as evidence.” (See Section 57- 9, 18, 19 & 20 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).”

      I am am afraid to see where she is getting this stuff, but again, these are her symptoms.. how she "presents".

      (me:) 'Republicans are 'never about race", you say?... so this [Southern tendency towards Birtherism] is just a big coincidence??"

      (she:) "Why are you bringing race into this?  You guys are obsessed."

      !!!!  projection, much??

    •  She went to Wesleyan? (0+ / 0-)

      Wow.  As an alumnus of that school, that's upsetting to hear.

  •  Play the song "Born in the USA" by Springsteen (0+ / 0-)

    at the next presser. make fun of these birthers plus the stenographers would write about it and lap it up!

  •  Holy moly! (0+ / 0-)

    I am glad I moved away from Texas. I would find it difficult to live in a red state nowadays.

    "...they are a Southern regional rump party." kos - on "Countdown", August 1, 2009

    by surfermom on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:00:41 PM PDT

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site