This started a couple of hours ago and is continuing into the evening. Not really sure who this person is, other than we went to high school and she looks really good in a bikini. Names will be withheld to protect the innocent and/or ignorant.
[She posts photo of four teabaggers protesting healthcare, comments "About time for the protest begin!]
Me: No government health care? So they want Medicare and Social Security repealed?
Because, you know, they're run by the government.
Her: And they've done such a great job?
Me: If you would like to go down to a local retirement community and try to convince the residents that they would be better off if they dropped Medicare and went with private insurance, go for it. I'm sure they could all use the laugh.
Me: In fact, the biggest reason that senior citizens are in opposition of health care reform is because of unfounded fears that the benefits they receive would be affected:
link to AARP article
Her: A lot of seniors oppose his plan. I know ..I'm a nurse
(Ah, professional credentials. I must be in for a hell of a discussion)
Her: No. They know they'll die waiting to see a specialist or to have a colonoscopy
Her: My patients know they'd be dead under his plan
Me: Of course the oppose the reform, because they are afraid that it will affect their benefits. After all, they are already in a single-payer system, while those of us who are not old enough are stuck dealing with the bloated bureaucracies of massive insurance companies at their 11.7 billion dollars in annual profits, made at the expense of sick people.
Those same corporations are now spending 1.4 million dollars per day on advertising meant to scare the bejesus out of the elderly and make them think that they won't be able to see their doctor, or care will be rationed, or the Sarah Palin "death panel" will be invoked. It's all a bunch of lies.
The fact is, if health care is not reformed, it will continue to eat up more of private and public budgets as premiums continue to go through the roof, and another 40,000 Americans will lose their coverage every month, and bankruptcies will continue to escalate.
Me: The healthcare system in our country is broken and needs to be reformed in spite of the lies and misinformation being spread by the health insurance lobby and their sock puppets in Congress.
Me: I posted a link to the official position of the AARP on this subject...I'm sure you know who they are. Given your line of work, I think it would be good reading.
(Given all that substance, you'd think I'd get it back? No.)
Her: Given my line of work, I know what kind of disaster Obama would be for patients n healthcare professionals alike
Me: Care to provide any examples?
Her: Meant Obama care.. But both is true
Me: BTW, Obamacare has no basis in reality. The bills are still being worked on in the Senate and House committees. Obama doesn't even have an official role until he signs or vetoes a bill. I know that Republicans got accustomed to simply rubber-stamping everything Bush wanted for six years (and nearly 5 TRILLION added to the national debt), but this is how it's done when all interests are brought to the table.
(why I bothered, I don't know. Maybe to feel smug.)
Her: Lower cost of healthcare lower quality of care. Clinics will go under n wages for nurses n other staff will suffer .
Her: His ideas n platform = his plan.. Bet if it passes n fail he'll deny it was his plan too
Me: Not true. The only people who will see a loss of income are health insurance executives who are living high off the suffering of others.
Under the current system, clinics will go under and staff will suffer because 40,000 Americans are losing coverage every month, and their only recourse when sick is to go the emergency room then declare bankruptcy when they can't cover the bill.
Her: Up until Obama was elected most states had a basic health care plan that was sliding scale.. Many states cut those programs in the hopes that Obama care passed. Many hospitals have charity care..
Her: I'm trying to eat yummy Mexican.. Debate ya later..
(ok, try to leave on a clever note)
Me: Enjoy that yummy Mexican. I hope it wasn't made by illegals with inadequate health care. ;)
(now it gets interesting...)
Her: One final thought... My daughter gets growth hormone injections provided previously without cost by a pharmaceutical company. In anticipation of the long reaching affects of Obama care passing we now almost lost our benefit entirely n the company directly blamed Obama. We now have pay a portion of it. They are cutting they're charity. GH COSTS 5k a month..
Her: Sorry for grammatical errors. Eating
(OK, time to make a human appeal)
Me: Hey, that's really unfortunate, and I'd like to hear all the details. Send me a message if you want. For a pharmaceutical company to pull such a thing sounds downright underhanded and I'll bet there's more too it, especially if they're trying to blame other people.
Her: If they're anticipating a hit it's self protective
. If I anticipated a loss in revenue I'd slow on my charitable donations.. I'd blame the source too
Me: Again, mail me the details. Sounds like there's a lot more to it. At the very least some local consumer reporters should be notified.
Her: I'm very pragmatic n I think it was well within reason for the pharmaceutical company to spell out why we were possibly going to lose this benefit.
(Wow, not willing to fight them at all? Starting to sound sketchy.)
Me: Your choice, but to me it sounds like corporate extortion and something that should be investigated and exposed. Otherwise it sounds merely allegorical.
(Yep, I actually took the chance on calling it out at fabricated. So how does she respond?)
Her: Incentives for businesses to provide healthcare insurance is a good idea
(Of course, she was using this "personal: story to invoke a Rand argument!)
Me: Or they can be required to provide it, and fined if they don't. If they choose to take their ball and go home, then another business will open up and serve the displaced customers. Petulance should not be rewarded in the open market.
What's up, did you read "Atlas Shrugged" recently?
Her: Government is big enuf already! Tax incentives.. Or reduction n B&O taxes for those who participate.
Me: Or, use government to provide a level playing field for everybody, so that everybody makes money and everybody enjoys some benefit, not just the top 5% that receive corporate welfare and no regulatory oversight under the system that has existed for some time now.
Why do you think large corporate entities (and their selected-by-nepotism executives) deserve to have all of the money in this country?
(She's withering down to ideology now. I don't expect this to last much longer.)
Her: I don't believe in socialism. Reward excellence. I strive for better because there's a reward. Don't reward laziness. Charity n philanthropism is voluntary n no government should force that
(Socialism! There it is!)
Me: So you don't mind what has happened in this country in the past decade, all of the money that has been stolen and wealth destroyed because some large corporate entities were allowed to do what they want? Where is the charity when the big investment banks and insurance companies are being allowed to loot the public coffers to the tune of trillions? Where is the excellence in that? Don't the people deserve to have some protection from these soulless corporate thieves?
Her: Government has suffered the same fate.. Waste n fraudulent spending.. Under several administrations.
(I find it endlessly fascinating how the right wingers always fall back to the "everything sucks" argument. It's like they know they're wrong, but they don't want to admit it, so they just dismiss everything is bad.)
Me: Yeah but at least when it happens in government we can vote them out. It's the reason why the Republicans got so mercilessly beat last year, they did a very bad job running things and the electorate responded. If Obama and the Dems do a lousy job then they'll get voted out too.
A little different with these corporations who are only beholden to investors that generally only care if they're making money. That is why they need to be held accountable with strong regulations. Plus, they need to be required to pay back their fair share to the people, in return for all of the money they are making.
If the rich are allowed to do whatever they want then not have to pay anything for it, everybody else suffers. That's what's been happening in this country for the past decade. Do you really think that's how it should continue?
Her: If people want a socialist government let them move to those countries n see how bad it is there. I love Capitalism.. The American dream shouldn't be a welfare state that supports lack of motivation. Hand up not a hand out!
Her: I think incentive is a good motivator.. Look at Gates.. He's not forced to donate but does so. No government should dictate such things!
Her: Companies pay taxes. That is what is required.. Do you want more companies to move outta the country n lose more American jobs.. Don't bite the hand that feeds ya
Me: But Social Security, and Medicare/Medicaid...that's socialism. So is the police, fire department. These are all social services. So is the FAA. And the parks department. And the Veteran's Administration. Do you really think that we could manage without all of these things in place?
Her: Have some social service doesn't equal socialism. To some extent I support state n local government n much prefer it to "big" government. I support non-profit organizations that run on money raised from benefactors..such as the company I work for. I'm not a big fan of welfare n have seen fraud first hand. Government run organizations have been sued for incompetence, fraud n negligence which the tax payers end up footing the bill.. It's abhorrent !
Her: CPS for example.. Government bureaucracy at it's best!
(OK, now it starts going off the proverbial track.)
Her: Let's have Obama try n reform child welfare services first since it's such a mess n kids continue to die under the government's watch!
Me: I'm a little confused, here. Isn't child protective services a state issue? I don't think that the President has the legal ability to go in and make a state change their policies, and I'm not aware of any initiatives for a new federal polices. Care to enlighten me? I'd like to know what kind of first hand experience you've had. If there is a problem with CPS it should certainly be brought to the attention of the public.
Her: It is and it isn't .. I think that if Obama should tackle reforming anything it should be something that really is an government type issue. He definitely needs to prove himself .. Let him tackle this first
Her: Wait a minute isn't that what Obama is trying to do? Over reaching n trying to over rule the states?
(Now we're getting into the right-wing stream of consciousness. The online debate equivalent of a filibuster.)
Me: In what way is Obama trying to over rule the states? That's definitely news to me.
Her: Isn't merely the expansion of big government infringing on state government's right to self govern? I'm sure if he had his way he'd ban firearms.. Why do you think sales in guns went up after he was elected?
Her: I love this debate but gotta get some stuff done. ..til next time .. ;)
Me: Depends on what the Supreme Court thinks, because they would overturn any legislation that is deemed unconstitutional. You would have to supply me with a specific example, and then I would have to consult a constitutional attorney. :) So far I have heard of no legislation that has been proposed to take away guns, but even if it passed it would be... Read More overturned because of constitutionality. I think gun sales went up because there were a lot of baseless rumors, not to mention exhortations of guys like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh who will say whatever will get them an audience.
Her: Last comment.. Didn't Obama swing the court in his favor? Hmmm? Ttyl
Me: Also last comment: One justice does make for a stacked bench. Good night!
(oops, gonna get reamed for that typo.)
Me: *Does NOT make! Whoops! :)
(So there you go, folks. See, we can have a reasonable discourse with the other side. Granted you may walk away trying to make sense of it all, but at least it's discourse.)