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I'm appalled at the decision of the NFL to allow Michel Vick, convicted dog torturer / killer, to play football again. I'm even more appalled that any team would sign him. I've been a football fan since I was a kid, through many of the NFL's scandals. I've seen the NFL try to improve its image by community outreach programs and events aimed at demonstrating to kids that pro football can be an honourable career. I've seen pro football players work hard in their communities to improve the quality of life for the residents, and I've seen many of them give their time and effort to local charities.

The Philadelphia Eagles have decided to forgive, forget, hire, and pay more than a million dollars to one of thousands of people who can toss a football. I will boycott the Eagles and their advertisers - because I will not forget.

I know this isn't much of a diary, but I'm really upset that a proud NFL team will spotlight a man whose main contribution to society is participation in dogfighting. I didn't see any other diaries on the hiring of Michael Vick, so I also apologise if I missed any.

I do not believe in forgive and forget. I believe in forgive and remember, so you don't fall for anything twice. I'm having a tough time forgiving Michael Vick, but I'll never forget that he helped torture and kill innocent living beings for fun. I'll eventually fully forgive him, but I'll never forget that dogfighting is wrong. No apologies, no excuses, can change that.

This is the letter I sent to the Philadelphia Eagles:

This business with Michael Vick is just too much. I'm glad I know which NFL team hired him, because now I know which team to boycott. I'm astonished that any team would take him, let alone pay him over a million dollars. I guess if you can chuck a football - or torture and murder some dogs - the Philadelphia Eagles will proudly set you forth as a shining example of humanity for kids everywhere to see. If that's how the NFL and the Eagles want to play it, why not start recruiting from prisons instead of from colleges? I'm sure there are plenty of serial killers and rapists you could sign. Will you be adding a dead dog to the bonuses a child can receive when they join the Kid's Club?

As for the boycott - I will not watch any game with the Eagles in it. I'll start my advertiser boycott with the ads on your web site. For example, the NFL network can count on me not to watch anything on their channel. Sovereign Bank can count on no deposits from me. The Lincoln Financial Group can rely on my broker's ability to sell as well as buy. Tastykake will sell a bit less junk food when I drive through Pennsylvania, and Turkey Hill is a brand of ice cream I'll never be tasting. I'll certainly miss the Pepsi, Snapple, and Dunkin Donuts, not to mention the KFC and Taco Bell, but maybe I'll lose a few pounds while you lose a viewer and they lose a customer. I don't use Verizon wireless, but my planned change to Verizon won't happen. I'll be buying my pizza from one of the many pizzerias that isn't Papa John's. Of course, thanks to your exquisite choice of criminals, I'll have to get my hair cut somewhere other than our local Great Clips, but I'm sure I can find someone who will do just as good a job.

You get the point. Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame on you.

Very sincerely,

Y'all may not agree with me. You may think dogfighting is minor. Such is life. However, I will not sit by, munching on Dunkin Donuts, while the Eagles demonstrate that they'd rather buy a Big Name criminal than search out and hire an equally-worthy currently-unknown quarterback. All I can do is boycott the Eagles and their advertisers. And I shall.

Originally posted to SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:10 AM PDT.

Poll

Will you join me in boycotting the Eagles?

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| 292 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for ending cruelty to animals (12+ / 0-)

    In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

    by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:10:27 AM PDT

    •  I'm for ending cruelty to animals, but (21+ / 0-)

      vick is also entitled to work again.  

      "I have confidence that the American people are more interested in doing what is right to protect this country than in political posturing."

      by fhamme on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:18:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure! But not in pro football. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Missys Brother

        I wouldn't mind it a bit if he went off and got a job in some area that didn't have high exposure to children. If he was selling something I was considering buying, I might buy it from him. However, I think his going back to pro football shows that a large and prominent organization thinks he can serve as a good example to others - but it ain't so.

        In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

        by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:23:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you're fighting a losing battle with me! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          johnosahon

          "I have confidence that the American people are more interested in doing what is right to protect this country than in political posturing."

          by fhamme on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:28:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Why not, if he commits no crime for the next 10 (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SciMathGuy, pinkomommy, SilentBrook

          years, isn't that a great example to others who might do something wrong and show that it can be a learning experience and still lead a successful life after paying their debt to society?

          •  IF. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Missys Brother

            In a low-exposure job - fine. In a high-exposure job where he will be remembered not for any talent, but for cruelty, no.

            In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

            by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:40:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thats logical (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SilentBrook

              Because in a low-profile job, they're obviously going to write that story.  It'd either never be written, or it'd be written as a man who paid his debt to society and was cast out as a social pariah for the rest of his life.

              Or, he has a high-profile job, spend the rest of his life in community outreach programs including work to curb dog fighting, and its the story of someone turning their life around.  Its the story of someone finding acceptance in a moral absolute after growing up around it.

              If he screws up again, hes out, its conditional re-admittance to the NFL.

        •  Pro football is a violent sport. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          johnosahon

          if you don't like violence, don't patronize it.

        •  So punishment for a crime is now infinite? (0+ / 0-)

          >> He's entitled to work

          > Sure, but not in pro football

          Why not, exactly?  He was arrested, indicted, tried, and convicted of a crime.  And he served his sentence as proscribed by law, the presiding judge, and the parole board.  There is nothing in the law that says that punishments for crimes continue indefinitely, and the Constitution pretty much bars such infinite unlimited punishment outside the scope of the written law and jury of peers.

          What possible justification - Constitutional, legal, or moral - do you have for deciding that Vick's punishment should be extended to an infinite duration and that he should be barred from doing work for which he is qualified?

          You are free, personally, to not do business with the Jets and to attempt to persuade others not to do so either.  But this concept that punishments for crimes should continue indefinitely and should include things such as losing the right to vote, inability to work in one's profession, etc is pernicious.

          sPh

        •  I know a man (0+ / 0-)

          who grew up in SE DC and who made bad choices and from those choices performed deplorable actions that got him incarcerated.

          He did his time and got out of prison. Since exiting prison, he has become an educator and currently works as a counselor to the current generation of youth who are growing up where he did and who face very similar choices that he did because his burden, having gone through what he did to pay the price for his transgressions, is to try to catch young men before they get to where he was, hopefully to prevent them from making the same choices he did and ending up paying the same price... or worse.

          By your logic he should not we working in his field since his being hired shows that a "large and prominent organization thinks he can serve as a good example to others".

          While you are entitled to believe it aint so, the people whose children he has helped see another way out of the hopelessness that is the 'hood than the jailyard or the graveyard are entitled to see it differently. He makes a difference because of his choices and the lessons he learned from them... not in spite of... and until you have evidence to demonstrate that Michael Vick cannot or will not make such a difference, your vitriol is misplaced, IMO

          •  Mistake to romanticize (0+ / 0-)

            I am glad that things worked out for the person you know, and wish every human such success.  But I think it is important not to over-romanticized either:  it is quite possible that there will be no redemption and that a person who commits a felony, serves his time, and is released will go on to some bad end.  But that isn't my point:  we are supposed to be a nation of laws, and when the penalty imposed by the law is served then that cycle is over and done.  If we start imposing ad hoc and neverending punishments for crimes and/or people we don't like then we end up exactly with Dick Cheney.

            sPh

            •  You're right... (0+ / 0-)

              and it is not my intent to imply that because it worked for the man I noted ergo it will work for Michael Vick... my point is, having fulfilled his obligation to the state for his transgression, he should at least be given the opportunity rather than be declared unsaved and unsaveable... and therefore unworthy of any opportunity to turn his life around... what's really sad, IMO is the visceral responses to this boil down often to the same essence of that which drives the birthers... that he is not worthy of being where he is now because of who he is... conflating what he has done with the essence of his being just as the birthers conflate Obama's external appearance with the essence of his being and then declaring worthiness or unworthiness based on that conflation...

              That, IMO, is where this particular train goes off the tracks particularly when one sees a Donte Stallworth get 24 days for killing a person... or worse a Dany Heatly get no time at all and no suspension from the NHL for doing the same and there is no lingering outrage.

              •  Fully agree (0+ / 0-)

                > .. my point is, having fulfilled his obligation
                > to the state for his transgression, he should at
                > least be given the opportunity rather than be
                > declared unsaved and unsaveable... and therefore
                > unworthy of any opportunity to turn his life
                > around... what's really sad, IMO is the visceral
                > responses to this boil down often to the same
                > essence of that which drives the birthers...
                > that he is not worthy of being where he is now
                > because of who he is... conflating what he has done
                > with the essence of his being

                I fully agree.

                sPh

      •  sure at... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SciMathGuy

        whole foods where you don't get insurance coverage.
        tung sol

        tung sol was right.--Governor David A Paterson

        by tung sol on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:04:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So should we now let Squeaky Fromme work in the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SciMathGuy

        White House?  I mean she did serve her time.  So she tried to kill President Ford?  It's all good now right?  I mean she does deserve to work.

        The future is what we decide it is going to be.

        by Ann T Bush on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 08:47:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please explain (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          als10, mcfly

          Please explain the logical link between your posting an Michael Vick.  Are NFL games and practice fields normally accompanied or attended by thousands of cute, helpless dogs?

          Or perhaps we could go at it from the other direction:  please specify what jobs you do think it is acceptable for for Vick to hold, and what your moral and Constitutional justification is for those choices.

          sPh

    •  Redemption - look it up (11+ / 0-)

      Let's give Vick a chance to show what he's like post-conviction.  For many people, the simple discovery of their wrong-doing is enough to make them examine and change their ways.  Vick also lost more than most people will ever have and made more headlines than many serial killers.  

      Life-long punishment is counter-productive and harms society, long-term.  They're all called "corrections" departments, after all.

      (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

      by john07801 on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:14:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll do one better. (5+ / 0-)

    Boycott all football for the rest of my life.

    The future is what we decide it is going to be.

    by Ann T Bush on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:13:04 AM PDT

  •  You know, it almost never happens... (19+ / 0-)

    ...that a celebrity gets the same sentence as a non-celebrity for breaking the law.  In Vick's case, that is what happened.  I see no reason in the world to fetishize crimes against animals versus crimes against people, and since Vick has done everything our system demands of people who've broken the law it strikes me as petty and vindictive to keep (ahem) hounding him.  Good for the Eagles, for blocking out the noise and hiring him to do a job he's trained to do.

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:17:11 AM PDT

  •  I read this last night online. (6+ / 0-)

    Vick's an Eagle.  Hide your beagle.

    --anonymous poet

  •  he served 16 months, thats enoungh for me. (13+ / 0-)

    I don't follow football, but from what I understand, he is very talented.

    I don't have a problem with forgiveness.

    BTW I am a dog lover....

    Here is my tweedy;
    tweddy

  •  Sigh (18+ / 0-)

    The man went to jail, had to file Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and ruined his image.  But I guess thats not enough for some.  Whats the point of jail again?  Is it a reform institution where people pay their debt to society, or is it a glorified "Time Out"?

    Beyond that, I seem to be missing your calls to boycott all the alleged wife beaters that play in the NFL.  But oh, I guess because that hasn't been made a high-profile issue, and instead, been swept under the carpet, its okay.  Out of sight, out of mind.

    What Vick did was horrible.  But if he's going to be your litmus test for eligibility in the NFL, then you're gonna have to throw out a ton more people.  I don't think anyone really agrees that dog fighting is in any way acceptable.  But to call it a cause for permanent expulsion from the NFL is to go a little overboard.  He's on thin ice.  Let him teach others from his mistakes, as hes already been doing in community outreach programs.  Let him redeem himself.  And at that, let yourself be open to the idea that humans are fallible, and its not so much the great mistakes we make in life, but what we do to rectify them thats wholly more important.

    •  Actually, I think that wife-beaters... (4+ / 0-)

      ..should also be tossed out of the NFL, as should other criminals. The point is that if they're going to hold themselves out as examples of the good, then they should be examples of the good.

      In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

      by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:26:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wow. Just wow. (7+ / 0-)

      You people defending Michael Vick disgust me. He didn't just make a mistake, he was a serial dog killer. Vick was intimately involved in a dog fighting operation for six years. Six fracking years, people.

      He bred dogs for fighting. He electrocuted dogs that lost fights. He drowned dogs that lost fights. He hung dogs that lost fights. He threw defenseless smaller breeds into pens with frightened, starving pit bulls for the sole intent of training the pit bulls to kill.

      These were not mistakes. These were the actions of a man who has no empathy for other living beings.

      Let Vick get a job out of the public eye and away from those misguided idiots who still adore him, but he should not be making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year playing a game.

      •  Excellent point. (3+ / 0-)

        I didn't even think of the things you wrote. Thank you for your comment. You made the point far better than I ever could have.

        In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

        by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:56:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The United Way (8+ / 0-)

        ...pointed out yesterday that they had just run through Philadelphia, with Vick trying to talk to young people about dog fighting.  And they said this was a group they would have had no chance reaching, but because of Vick's personal story, those kids went away with a completely different sentiment about dog fighting.  And at the same time, PETA decried his acceptance into the NFL in a knee-jerk reaction.  It's shocking, I know.

        So hes reaching segments of the culture that have grown up not seeing a moral issue with fighting dogs, and they're looking at it in a new light now.  Go ahead and take football away from him, but then what ability does he have to be a moral leader?

        I never defended any actions by Vick.  What I did defend is the ability for someone who has served his time to come back into the NFL.  I made clear reference to the absolute moral injustice of dog fighting, and I never condoned his actions.  

        •  He doesn't need to play football... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SciMathGuy

          ...to reach out to people and educate them about the horrors of dog fighting. If you want him to be a role model then let him sack groceries and serve as an example of how wealth and fame do not make anyone immune from consequences.

          Mike Vick as a moral leader? The man murdered dogs. He tortured dogs for enjoyment. He has no moral credibility.

          Letting Vick back into the NFL shows people they can do whatever they want and get back to their former professions after "paying their time."

          Using your logic Charles Colson should have gotten his law license back after serving prison time for his Watergate crimes.

      •  I know it is hard to believe (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sphealey

        but in America not everyone has the same views on animals.  It is almost like different countries and cultures.  Vick strikes me as a person who NEVER contemplated that animals weren't tools/ entertainment.  Heck cock fighting is legal in some states.  He broke the law, but I believe he broke the law because he was culturally unaware o the purposes of the law.

        GOP = Godless opposition party We Hassle to make America a Vassal (state)

        by Shhs on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:54:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh and soem dog and cock fighters (0+ / 0-)

        all over the world really do LOOOOVE their animals (in their own way).  I kid you not.

        GOP = Godless opposition party We Hassle to make America a Vassal (state)

        by Shhs on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:54:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Some NFL player guilty of vehicular (6+ / 0-)

    manslaughter is playing after serving 24 days in jail. Vick did his time. Next.

    Full disclosure: I like animals, NFL not so much.

  •  I think the Vick case did more for this cause (13+ / 0-)

    than anything in my lifetime.

    I want to be clear.  What he did was an outrage.  But the irony is that it shone a light on something that was in the shadows until then.

    The fact that he got a felony conviction for it was the best thing to happen to efforts to protect animals that I have ever seen.

    Now, he has been convicted, will be a felony for life, has spent time in prison and now he gets to go back to work.  He will carry this stain the rest of his life.

    I don't care about the Eagles anyway.

    "We will now proceed to construct the socialist order."

    by 7November on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:22:11 AM PDT

    •  Thank you for saying this. (5+ / 0-)

      And I too want to be clear: I am a major dog lover and animal welfare and rescue volunteer, and am beyond disgusted by dogfighting.  But this has actually been a huge blessing in disguise.  
      Because of the Vick case, this country's eyes have been opened more than ever before to the cruelty of dogfighting; more dogfighting rings are being exposed and busted than ever before, and more of those subhuman monsters being convicted than ever before.
      I detest Michael Vick and what he did, but the massive celebrity exposure surrounding his case is resulting in hundreds and hundreds of dogs being saved, and heartless criminals being prosecuted.
      Like it or not, this is a good thing.

      They tortured people to get false confessions to fraudulently justify our invading Iraq.

      by txflower on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:56:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  he's done his time (6+ / 0-)

    Should he be punished for life?  Is there any possibility that he can redeem himself?  

  •  I appreicate your disgust with the cruelty (15+ / 0-)

    of dogfighting. But Michael Vick served his time in prison. Our legal system said "You have violated our laws and here is the penalty you must pay." He has paid his penalty. Now he can rejoin our society and I want him to have an opportunity to live his life in the best way possible. With his rights restored. So I have no problem with Philly picking him up.

    "She was very young,he thought,...she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing." -1984

    by aggressiveprogressive on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:22:24 AM PDT

    •  NO, the diarist wants him to be JOBLESS (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sphealey, Uncle Irish, Shhs

      so that he can go back to dogfighting and then end UP BACK IN JAIL, to prove his point.

      •  NO, the diarist (me) wants him... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sphealey

        ...not in the public eye for a while, until he's shown that he's really changed his ways. Similar to the probation he's supposedly on.

        I had a friend who stole from the bank she worked in (not the smartest person in the world...). When she got out of jail, she was on probation. However, as a condition of her probation, she had to stay away from jobs that would have put her into contact with money that could be stolen (no bank jobs!). She was allowed to work, earn money, and show that her days of thieving were over.

        I would very much have liked to see Vick return to society and temporarily earn a good living in some area other than football, or for that matter, even as a pro football quarterback coach. After that probationary period, if he succeeded in showing that he had changed, I wouldn't have objected to seeing him return to pro football as a high-profile player.

        In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

        by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 08:14:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  is it his fault that his JOB (his source (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sphealey

          for livelihood) is in the public eye?

          well sorry to you, but the man has got to live doing the job he is good at.

          •  Quite possibly. (0+ / 0-)

            I cut the sentence in my comment that it's very possible that when someone earns a huge amount of money, they can easily become tempted and can easily think they won't get caught, or are above the law.

            We see this all the time in our society. Money talks and bullshit walks. CEOs who kill by spreadsheet orders aren't prosecuted, while mob bosses who kill by verbal orders are sent to jail for life. The wealthy have always had better opportunities to commit financial crimes and have them covered up than the non-wealthy. Robbing a bank, guy-off-the-street version = prison. Robbing a lot of banks, wealthy-person version = bailout. It seems that wealth alone can entice people to do things they never would have done before.

            Sometimes, we do punish the guilty forever. Senators who rail against gay rights or cheat on their spouses are found enjoying gay sex and continuing to cheat, and they often lose their public-eye jobs. They are, of course, free to practice law or set up foundations as they wish, but their publics do sometimes stop voting for them. Homophobic preachers who get caught in gay relationships are sometimes run out of their jobs, but are free to do something else.

            One thing nobody has mentioned - sooner or later, Vick will have to give up playing football. He'll get old, or he'll get injured. Then what? He'll have to find something else to be good at. I think he should be given that opportunity now.

            In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

            by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 08:51:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  No, he shouldn't make millions throwing a ball... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SciMathGuy

        I'm quite sure that there are other, very talented young men who could fill that role. It's the crap shoot of our inane capitalist society.

        A man who will risk his life, to drag your sorry ass from a burning building, get's a tiny fraction of what this 'man' will make.

        Yet, having committed such a horrific crime, he should be able to enjoy the 'skill lottery' again?

        I don't think so. If he's a millionaire, buy a car lot, and join the indistinguisable masses. No limelight for torturers.

        •  you are HILARIOUS (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sphealey

          it seems you are jealous of vick and players like him who are talented and lucky enough to be accepted into sports.

          i can see that this has NOTHING to do with dogfighting but has alot to do with the millions of money they get paid.

          that is a whole different topic, i myself don't understand why they get paid so much, it could be the fact that they GIVE THEIR TEAM BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF PROFIT due to the people who watch them in their violent sport.

          boycotting sports may reduce the amount of money they make.

          •  Hilarious as insurance companies? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SciMathGuy

            Am I jealous of them, as well? Are you? Are they so talented, that they deserve what they're getting? Are they lucky for being accepted? Well, in that case, we should just forget about health care reform. Cause I'm jealous of their out of proportion profit.

            If you can see that it has nothing to do with dogfighting, and the millions they get paid; Can you see that Michael Vick, is as good as (fill in the blank.) (Fill in the blank,) has put all his energy, and effort to being a good quarterback. He's as good at it as Vick.

            In your ineffable wisdom, what should put Vick, back in this lottery pool? Should there be no conditions whatsoever in this lottery?

            It's a lottery to get into this country. They decided, that Nazi camp guards are exempt from the lottery. Why? Didn't they pay their 'debt to society?' Heinous crimes exempt them from coming here, but it's a different story for your lottery?

        •  No one should make millions throwing a ball (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SciMathGuy

          or hitting it, kicking it, etc.

          Why is Vick in the spotlight?  Because he's good at playing a child's game and the fans have voted with their dollars.

          (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

          by john07801 on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 09:12:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Electrocuting "loser" dogs in a baby wading pool (5+ / 0-)

    ...is DISGUSTING!  Those dogs, even if they were pit bulls, were living, sentient beings.  They didn't have the mental capacity to understand why they were urged to kill and then to undergo torture and death when they "failed" to kill enough.

    Is THIS how we reward wrongdoing?  DAMN right we'll be watching no Eagles games in this house!  Will we boycott the sponsors?  YES!

    Vick should spend the rest of his life and whatever remains of his fortune working for PETA in expiation of his sins.  A brief prison sentence and a new career mean nothing.

    Equal "rites" for ALL Americans!

    by Diana in NoVa on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:23:00 AM PDT

    •  Oh save it. (8+ / 0-)

      Do not EVER preach to another human being about sins, do not do it.  Lest one day your name ends up in the paper and you can not explain your lack of judgment.  It happens.  People go nuts.  They kill things, they hit women, or pedestrians.  Whatever.  They need to be forgiven, or bitterness on their part will just lead to recidivism, and that is something to prevent.  

      Nov 4, 2008-The Day That "Yes We Can!" Became "Yes We Did!" My unpolitical just for fun blog

      by Bluejoy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:26:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sure, but killing sentient creatures (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sphealey, Irixsh, Shhs

      is simply business as usual in this country - at the rate of something like 10 million a day.

      Guess he should have eaten those dogs, then nobody would have much cared . . . .

    •  First of all... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sphealey, esquimaux, Shhs, FrozeAgain

      Vick should spend the rest of his life and whatever remains of his fortune working for PETA in expiation of his sins.

      Soteriology 101... works don't expiate sins... no matter how good they are, no matter how long one does them

      secondly, it amazes me how some who profess Christianity can manifest such overt unforgiveness... perhaps their bible omits Mat 6:15:

      Mat 6:15   But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

      *** DISCLAIMER *** If you do not profess Christianity, please disregard this message; it's not directed to you...

  •  Whether you agree with its severity (6+ / 0-)

    Vick's sentence and punishment has been meted out and served. He seems to be sincere in his apology and move away from such activities. He certainly deserves another chance. Otherwise, why don't we just take him into Eagle stadium before the opening game, and you can execute him, just as they used to do in Afghanistan.

  •  you are doing the right thing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SciMathGuy

    abuse of animals is just a minor step away from abusing people.

  •  I'm not boycotting the Eagles, I'm diong the NFL. (6+ / 0-)

    It's not just one team that's allowing this, it's the entire enterprise.

    The Commissioner of the NFL - the head of the whole, says that an inhuman criminal should be allowed to reap millions. An arena that should contain figures for kids to look up to.

    What the NFL is telling the young and old alike, is that there's no consequence for crossing lines that shouldn't be crossed. You can get rich, do unspeakable things, and go on like it never happened.

    No, it's not just the Eagles that bear responsibility, the entire enterprise needs to be reminded that there's more to life than numbers, and money. And if money is the only thing they understand, they won't be getting any from me.

    •  Good point. Thank you. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

      by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:28:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why shouldn't a kid be able to look up to someone (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mcfly, Shhs, johnosahon, nickrud, SilentBrook

      who can turn their life around after making a mistake? brilliant!!!

      •  Making a mistake? Are you serious? (5+ / 0-)

        A mistake, would be running a dog over, while talking on a cell phone. A mistake, is when you unknowingly, unintentionally do something.

        This wasn't a mistake. It was intentional. Would you call torturing human beings a mistake? That for some reason, people just didn't know that it was wrong?

        Vick would be doing it still, today, had he not been caught. And the bullshit 'remorse' he puts out, isn't remorse at all, like all sick criminals.

        His remorse is for himself, for being caught. Turn his life around? The only way ANYBODY should ever look up to this inhuman bastard, would be for him to dedicate his ENTIRE life, to rehabilitating broken, and mistreated animals.

        No harm, no foul. Would you allow a murderer back in the NFL? Or is it just any other animal than a human that you don't have problems torturing?

        Mistake?

        •  You made the point WAY better than I did. (0+ / 0-)

          Thanks!

          In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

          by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:11:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Depends. If you consider killing someone (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shhs, SilentBrook

          as a drunk driver it's been done.

          Personally I don't agree with lifetime social penalties for criminals. Reminds me too much of the Scarlet Letter of fundamentalist mentalities.

          •  The world I live in... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SciMathGuy

            It's chock full of sick people. Many go to prison, and many never pay.

            I live in a city, where the poor and elderly, must pay for a building for these millionaires. They have to decide between food, medicine, or gas. And pay for these peoples' place of 'work.'

            Human beings are dying, because they can't afford to see a doctor. Yet, they're forced to pay for these millionaire players, and billionaire owners, whether they like it or not.

            Now, this taxpayer fed organization, is deciding that one of their own, having willfully, and knowingly, committed horrible crimes, again, and again, will be paid more millions. Do we, as unwilling payers' to this system have any say?

            If you want to pay Vick, fine. Go ahead - Buy your tickets, support your 'redemption.' This 'man' tortured animals, over and over.

            Not on my dime.

            •  Seems your problem is more with football (0+ / 0-)

              in general, not Vick and redemption. You might want to put your time and advocacy in that rather than a sideshow.

            •  Then I guess it's a good thing... (0+ / 0-)

              that cities don't benefit financially from having pro sports teams. I'm sure they just build stadiums out of generosity and good will toward the local franchise. It certainly doesn't increase revenue or national visibility for the city. It definitely doesn't bring in thousands of additional tourists each year who spend money in the local economy. And, it's unlikely that the franchise employs hundreds (thousands, maybe?) of local workers in the construction, maintenance, and operation of said stadium.

              Come on, be realistic here. If you want to boycott go ahead, but the "not on my dime" argument is a bit ridiculous.

              •  people paying for these aren't dying, because of. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SciMathGuy

                capitalism run amok?

                I'm supposed to pay, and other's who can't afford to eat, for a business to get more business?

                More corporatist bullshit argument. You buy it, because you want to. Much like the wingnuts who think healthcare is just fine as it is.

                Those construction jobs, should have been paid for by the billionaire, who will eventually profit from the building. It's all profit now. The 'rent' they pay, will never cover the cost of building it, and the rest goes into their pockets.

                Did they decide to tax only the restaurauts, and hotels, and gas stations who will profit from it? Nope, Grandma's paying for it. She does't watch football, but she's paying for it. And, has to decide between eating, and medication.

                But, you're getting yours. You like football, so naturally, everybody should pitch in, right?

                Condemn the wingnuts for opposing taxing the people you want to excuse, because it's a sport you like. Grandma can't afford her medication, and it's all the insurance industry's fault. Not that community helping tax. Is it helping Grandma? No, it's those OTHER evil, greedy people. Not the evil, greedy people, you don't see as evil and greedy, but they actually deserve being held up above everybody else.

                •  Sigh. (0+ / 0-)

                  Let's go through this paragraph by paragraph:

                  I'm supposed to pay, and other's who can't afford to eat, for a business to get more business?

                  If you actually read what I wrote, it's not about a business getting more business. It's about injecting more money into a local economy which, ultimately, benefits the citizens of the city. Feel free to ignore the economic arguments, but that doesn't make them any less legitimate.

                  More corporatist bullshit argument. You buy it, because you want to. Much like the wingnuts who think healthcare is just fine as it is.

                  Ah, using tax money for purposes that will bring more money into the city is corporatist. Interesting point you have there. Oh, and topping it off by comparing me to those opposing health care... how topical, relevant, and logical!

                  Those construction jobs, should have been paid for by the billionaire, who will eventually profit from the building. It's all profit now. The 'rent' they pay, will never cover the cost of building it, and the rest goes into their pockets.

                  Half of it was paid for by the ownership and the city paid the other half. And yes, while the ownership may garner the direct profits from the use of the building, the city profits indirectly through the business that the franchise brings in.

                  Did they decide to tax only the restaurauts, and hotels, and gas stations who will profit from it? Nope, Grandma's paying for it. She does't watch football, but she's paying for it. And, has to decide between eating, and medication.

                  Not every person can have a say in where their tax dollars go. No, Grandma might not watch football. But does she walk on the sidewalks to get to the pharmacy to get her medication? Does she drive on the roads? Does she benefit from police and fire services? Franchises bring in revenue which lead to increased tax revenue which lead to increased public services.

                  But, you're getting yours. You like football, so naturally, everybody should pitch in, right?

                  I could not care LESS about professional football. If the league dissolved tomorrow I would not shed a single tear. But please feel free to make all of the assumptions about me you like, don't let reality stop you.

                  Condemn the wingnuts for opposing taxing the people you want to excuse, because it's a sport you like. Grandma can't afford her medication, and it's all the insurance industry's fault. Not that community helping tax. Is it helping Grandma? No, it's those OTHER evil, greedy people. Not the evil, greedy people, you don't see as evil and greedy, but they actually deserve being held up above everybody else.

                  I really can't make heads or tails of this paragraph. So, on that note, peace... I'm outta here.

                  •  Run away, your arguments fail as ususal... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SciMathGuy

                    Of course you'll run away.

                    Injecting more money, into the local economy. A several county tax, is bringing money to whom, exactly?

                    A little old lady in Racine, Wisconsin, gets the benefit of Milwaukee's business taxes how, now? A restauraunt in a 30 square block gets more revenue; and this little old lady in Racine, she's getting what benefit from this? It's not paid for by the city, or the county, but a about a third of the population of the state. And it's not an atypical setup, either.

                    And, thats one of the biggies here. These taxes aren't just collected, from the area that will "reap such huge benefits." And it is the same thing, as some idiot wingnut defending insurance companies. You don't have all the facts, but spout the same lines. The Milwaukee Brewers don't benefit Racine, in any way. But, they're paying for it.

                    If you couldn't care less about football, why are you here? Why, did you bother to read this diary in the first place? Why are you commenting?

                    And as far as the last paragraph, it's quite clear. Another industry run amok, with people suffering. You see one as bad, but not the other. The evil bad insurance companys are killing Grandma; The football, baseball, basketball, corporatations are killing grandma. The city, county, state, and federal governments' collusion with these corporations are killing grandma. You're excusing the whole, fucked up system, are killing grandma.

                    The wingnuts are crazy, because they want to stop people from getting what they should get. They're nuts, for not seeing the destruction to our society.

                    What exactly, are you?

                    •  Oh, my friend. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sphealey, als10

                      You're modifying your argument. Now Grandma lives in a completely different city, which you never specified before. But let me ask, do the sports franchises pay state taxes? Do the businesses pay state taxes? Yes? Because if they do, it would seem that Grandma would still benefit from them. Alas, I suppose these are just details.

                      And just for the record, I'm not running away from anything. I'm stepping away from an argument with a brick wall. Your juvenile insults and insinuations undermine your argument. Repeatedly likening me to an "idiot wingnut" neither helps your case nor does it cause me to take you seriously.

                      We probably agree on plenty of other things, so I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain how taxes benefit people, which I thought would be self-evident to fellow Democrats. On a serious note, enjoy the rest of your day.

    •  No consequences? Really? (0+ / 0-)

      You really think that Michael Vick has not suffered any consequences for his crime.

      You can get rich, do unspeakable things, and go on like it never happened.

      Oh and you can read minds too!?! Unless you're Michael Vicks' confidante, you have no idea as to what you speak.

      Justice cannot be for one side alone, but must be for both. --Eleanor Roosevelt

      by xndem on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:40:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I liked the Michael Vick chew toy! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKinTN, SciMathGuy, miss SPED, FarWestGirl

    "We will now proceed to construct the socialist order."

    by 7November on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:23:53 AM PDT

  •  He served his time (7+ / 0-)

    This is a senseless, hypocritical diary.  Vick was made a scapegoat for an activity that has been in southern culture for centuries.  He paid his debt to society (too much, in my opinion).  Yet you want to kick a man while he's down, to push his face in the dirt again?

    You are a joke

  •  I wish there was a Dunkin Donuts (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Irixsh, SciMathGuy, pinkomommy

    near my house.

  •  Aren't we the ones who believe in rehabilitation? (7+ / 0-)

    Isn't that the progressive way of thinking?  Or are we no better than the one strike and you're out people, just with different priorities...

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King

    by zenbassoon on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:38:12 AM PDT

  •  The guy did his time (6+ / 0-)

    When someone goes to jail and gets out of jail, they should have the opportunity to earn a living again.  

    And I mean he should be doing it in whatever field he wishes.

    "I refute it thus."

    by otto on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:44:21 AM PDT

  •  He served his time (9+ / 0-)

    lost a hundred million dollars.  Its time to move on.

    If he screws up again, throw the book at him.  But its time to see if he's been successfully rehabilitated.  Here's hoping the young man has put his life back together and this story has a happy ending.

    My state is better than yours.

    by Keep Oregon Blue on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 06:55:28 AM PDT

  •  You've given hope to ex-cons everywhere. n/t (5+ / 0-)
  •  Vick has the right to try to play football (4+ / 0-)

    The Eagles have the right to hire him to do it.

    I have the right to not to listen to cheering for a man who took innocent beings who were at his mercy and hung them from a tree so he could electrocute them with jumper cables.

  •  Whoops!!! (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sphealey, Hirodog, Shhs, johnosahon, nickrud

    In order to counteract your self righteous nonsense I'll be purchasing some Eagles souvenirs this season.

    ...and I don't even like like Vick, dog fighting, or football for that matter.

    Why don't you step up your boycott and avoid buying anything from any company that kills animals against their will.

    You'll be dead within a week, tops.

    •  Hmmm... I know a lot of live vegans... (0+ / 0-)

      ...who do just fine not buying anything from any company who kills animals against their will.

      In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

      by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:23:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nickrud

        Your "vegan friends" have done the research for the corporate structure of every item they buy?

        "Sounds great Greg!"
        ~Bobby Brady

        Plus, I didn't question your friends, who, by the way, have immense amounts of time to study corporate hierarchies, I said YOU.

        Michael Vick, in all likelihood, is an asshole in my personal opinion but what in hell does that have to do with being banned from football? Because it is a high paying job?

        If your kids follow and emulate the negative personal exploits of random athletes because they are famous then all that means is that you are...

        A PISS POOR PARENT.

        You may be a well intentioned parent but make no mistake the primary issue is that you have failed in your duties regardless of Michael Vick or anyone else.  

  •  Vick: not "paid his debt" but "deserves millions? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SciMathGuy, SgtRocky1

    This is all over the early AM sports-talk shows, but the following is something I haven't yet seen in the discussion:

    People commit crimes which the penal code considers more heinous, but, once having served their time, are considered to be entitled to rehabilitation. I would submit that, in this sense, Mike Vick has paid his debt and is likewise entitled, "like everyone else."

    HOWEVER, what is not "like everyone else" is that Mike Vick is going to have at least the opportunity to earn millions, AND to return to virtually the same lifestyle & environs of privilege which contributed to his animal abuse in the first place.

    This is BOTH bad rehab policy (ask any ex-junkie about whether returning to the The Corner is a good idea) AND horrific social messaging: e.g., "Mike Vick" may have tortured animals, but he's back to making millions a year! There aren't really any consequences!"

    This is why reinstated Vick is mistake and why I'll boycott the Eagles.

    •  The social policy I see being implemented (5+ / 0-)

      is 'hey, you committed a crime. You went to prison, did your time, met every legal requirement. Now, get on with your life.'

      'Psych.'

      Where do we draw the line at post incarceration punishment? Voting? Gun ownership? Allowed jobs? A Scarlet Letter? You're telling every convict that they will never, ever be able to redeem themselves and live the life they aspire to. To me, that's a far worse crime than the one Vick is guilty of.

      •  If your only skill is throwing a ball... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SciMathGuy

        and, you've committed such heinous acts, should you be allowed to make more than a person who would drag your sorry ass, out of a burning building?

        Should you be allowed to make millions, throwing a ball, or handing to some guy who can run like the wind?

        Professional sports isn't a job that's practiced in the anonymity like 99.99999 percent of the jobs people do.

        Should somebody like Jeffery Dahmer be given a T.V. show? According to you, and the sick, messed up world we live in, the answer is yes. Ollie North sold weapons to both sides of a war, and used the money to start more wars in South America. He's got a T.V. show.

        Is this good for our collective concepts of right and wrong?

        •  Again, your problem is with football in general. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          johnosahon

          Apparently you think anyone making those millions is wrong, and simply hanging your hat on Vick because he's visible.

          •  No, you're projecting... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SciMathGuy

            It's a lottery, with some conditions.

            How many people, can, and could do what Vick does? At the same skill level, or higher?

            I'm an exceptional sewing machine mechanic. Yet, my job went to Mexico. Are they better at repairing sewing machines in Mexico? How about operating them?

            The thing about every aspect of what we humans do, is that there's always somebody who can do the same. In the case of manufacturing, skill level is inconsequential. The powers that be, want whomever will do it for the least amount.

            But professional sports, that's a different story altogether. While there are thousands in line, they'd rather stick with one's they know you'll pay dearly for.

            I committed no crime, and lost my job. For the obscene profit of another. A vicious criminal will be getting an obscene amount of money, that someone with equal skill will be passed over for.

            You're a coporatist, and don't even realize it.

      •  Convicted felons can't own guns. Ever. (0+ / 0-)

        They can't vote, either. Ever. Convicted pedophiles can't work in a school. Ever. Etc., etc.

        We draw those lines already in our society.

        In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

        by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 08:19:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And I have yet to see (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne

          > They can't vote, either.

          And I have yet to see a convincing moral or Constitutional justification for this practice.  Whist serving their sentence and parole - if specified **in advance** by the appropriate statue - perhaps.  But after the full sentence is completed?  What is the justification for denying the right to vote then?

          sPh

        •  Incorrect on a number of levels. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sphealey, Ahianne, nickrud

          First, there are several states that allow felons to vote and there are others that allow felons to possess firearms. Check your facts before you state absolutes.

          Second, pedophiles can't work in schools because it puts them in direct contact with children. Vick shouldn't work in the NFL because it puts him in direct contact with... dogs? It's a logical disconnect.

    •  Attention (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnosahon

      This is the type of piss poor illogical thinking that allows republicans to comfortable live in a state of altered reality.

      As if being a NFL player as ANY FUCKING CONNECTION WHATSOEVER to dog fighting.

      If that was the case your head would probably explode.

      This disconnect from sport hunting done by others in the NFL and Vick is equally lunatic-like. They kill for the sport, period.  And the speed of the kill argument? Equally retarded in thought.

      Liberals and conservative stupidity is equal. (not really, but it's damn close!)

    •  Good point, coyotebanjo. Thanks! n/t (0+ / 0-)

      In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

      by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:46:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shhs, johnosahon

      You're ok telling a man how he can earn a living once he's paid his debt to society?

      I'm sorry, but your "like everyone else" argument is a huge logical leap that does not withstand scrutiny. It's merely a coincidence that this man's skill set allows him the opportunity to earn millions of dollars in his chosen profession. Why on earth should he have to be "like everyone else"?

  •  you are a BIG FAT HYPOCRITE (0+ / 0-)

    all sports should be boycotted because of the illegal substance being used by MOST players to cheat, yet you still watch the cheats.

    PLEASE, save the holier attitude for yo mama.

    the last time i checked, vick was arrested, sentenced and served his time, he MUST be allowed  into society again, PERIOD, if not tell the court to CHANGE prsion sentences to LIFE, since convicts must be PUNISHED FOR LIFE.

    FAIL DAIRY

  •  Are You For Pete Rose Getting Into Hall of Fame? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnosahon

    Why is it that you find it so hard to consider that Vick made a mistake and, since he did his time (which was ridiculous for him to go to jail behind that instead of getting probation), you can't let the man go on with his life?

    It's not like he started a war in Iraq that was unnecessary and based on lies and torture.

    Some people find it so hard to forgive a Black man for making a mistake.

    I'll bet you're for Pete Rose getting into the Hall of Fame though.

    Get over it!

    Time for a cool change.

    by ohnoyoudont on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:37:51 AM PDT

  •  Your Premise is Wrong (6+ / 0-)

    SciMathGuy argues that:

    The Philadelphia Eagles have decided to forgive, forget...

    But that's just not true.  Vick has pledged to work hard both for Animal rights and to raise awareness against cruelty against animals (of the kind he participated in).  He can become a great spokesperson for this topic -- helping a cause you seem interested in.  Moreover, Vick seems true to his pledge so far.  He was in Chicago this past weekend talking to conference discussing animal cruelty and to kids about the harms of his past actions.

    There simply does not seem to be any "forgive and forget" mentality at work.  No one -- least of all Vick -- appear to be trying to sweep the past under the rug.  Instead their is an active attempt to use it for postive action going forward.  

    I don't think anyone -- the sports media, the NFL, fans of the NFL, animal rights activists, Vick himself -- will ever let Vick forget what he did and he will continued to be held accountable because of his high profile status in a way other ex-cons are not.  

    I believe in redemption.  Vick should get another chance and continue to be held accountable.  

  •  I just suggested a name change for the Eagles (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SciMathGuy, awesumtenor

    Went to their Web site and wrote the following:

    Why not change the "Philadelphia Eagles" to the "Philadelphia Executioners," since you just hired Michael Vick?  Please be assured that NO Executioners' games will be watched at our house, even when you play our home team, the Redskins.

    Equal "rites" for ALL Americans!

    by Diana in NoVa on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:44:49 AM PDT

    •  Thank you! Better letter than mine was! (0+ / 0-)

      Short and to the point. Good 'un!

      In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

      by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:48:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Geez, it's the "Redskins" who need to change (5+ / 0-)

      their name.  It's pattenly racist.  If any pro-team needed a name-change then it's them.

    •  did not mean to rec this comment... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sphealey, SciMathGuy

      I'm not going to HR it... but I just wanted to state my intent for the record.

      I am puzzled though how it's illegal for Vick to kill dogs that performed under par yet it's perfectly legal for those who race dogs to do the exact same thing... and not all of them are killed with a veterinarian's needle.

      I am angered by the amount of outrage over cruelty to animals when cruelty to humans is ignored... often by the same people

      •  Agreed. I also never went to dog races... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sphealey

        ...for precisely that reason.

        The vet I worked for, way back when, had a greyhound that he'd rescued from the track's death row. That dog was going to be killed because she wasn't fast enough. Bad, bad, bad.

        I suspect we're more outraged over to cruelty to animals than over cruelty to humans because humans are usually thought of as being capable of defining their own destinies while animals aren't. Of course, not all humans can control their circumstances. Torturing humans, especially those with disabilities, and torturing animals are both unconscionable.

        In 1971, Don McLean wrote about the day the music died. On 17 July 2009, the news died. RIP Walter Cronkite.

        by SciMathGuy on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 08:25:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If we are honest (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sphealey, SciMathGuy

          then we will acknowledge that most humans are incapable of defining their destinies due to lack of education, lack of real opportunity, lack of mobility, etc.

          Those who can are, in the overall, an extremely minute portion of the 6 billion plus people that inhabit this planet. Most are stuck reacting to life as it comes and they are not afforded the luxury of "defining their destiny"... the person who neither has boots nor can obtain any will never be in a position to pull himself up by his bootstraps.

  •  I've had a rough night... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SciMathGuy

    ...and I hate the f**king Eagles, man.

    Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

    by mistersite on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:53:31 AM PDT

  •  Ah, another boycott (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shhs, johnosahon

    (sigh)

    I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and in all places...arousing and persuading and reproaching you.-Socrates

    by The Navigator on Fri Aug 14, 2009 at 07:56:34 AM PDT

  •  for me, this is kind of like the Whole Foods (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SciMathGuy

    boycott - boycotting something I alreadon don't participate in. Easy enough for me to say I'll never watch any given football game, untill the Longhorns play for the national title again, anyway. : D

  •  To everyone who says he's "served his time" (0+ / 0-)

    What exactly has he served his time for?

    He pled not guilty to state animal cruelty charges, which were dropped in a plea bargain. He has never, to my knowledge, confessed that what he did was wrong.

    I'm all in favor of redemption and contrition, but this jerk hasn't shown any of the latter, which is a necessary step to get some of the former. From the Wikipedia page:

    A significant portion of the plea agreement involved Vick cooperating with federal authorities pursuing other dog fighting cases as well as a complete allocution on his role in the Bad Newz Kennels, including detailing his role in the killing of dogs after the fights. The allocution proved to be a "sticking point," as both federal prosecutors and FBI agents reported that Vick was giving contradictory statements about how dogs were killed, what his role in the killings were, how many dogs were killed, and other details. According to reporters who spoke to Judge Hudson after the sentencing hearing, Vick's pre-sentencing behavior, especially during an FBI polygraph administered in October 2007 which showed that Vick was being deceptive when asked direct questions about killing dogs, was a factor in selecting the length of the sentence.

    So the son of a bitch was likely still lying even after he had pled guilty on RICO statute charges, which are some of the easiest charges in the U.S. Code to prosecute.

    This man is a monster.

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