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Desperate wishful thinking.  That's all I can think of to say after reading this diary which offers this speculation on Obama's abandonment of us and our causes:

I see this as a massive "head fake".

 I would assume that this was the product of our very least astute and least experienced political thinker (after all, someone has to be at the bottom), but for the fact that it made the rec list!!!  Yes, that is so shocking it deserves three exclamation points.

My god, people, WAKE UP.  Hollywood is a long, long way from Washington.  If Obama wanted the Public Option, he is doing everything wrong and is an inept politician.  The news today does not presage some secret, master plan to hand us the public option at the last minute, thereby showing leftist progressive critics like me what fools we are for doubting him.

The time has come to take the fight to Obama.

Obama has broken his promise to fight for a medicare-type health care plan for all Americans.  We all must accept this: Obama has, according to ALL signs, abandoned us.

I'll repeat: Obama has abandoned us.

He abandoned repealing warrantless wiretaps.  He is issuing signing statements, clinging to the unitary executive.  He abandoned us in the economic bailout and gave all the money to Wall Street.  He abandoned us on even ATTEMPTING to bring Single Payer into the national discussion on health care reform.  Why didn't all of us get the hint then?

He never unequivocally stated that the Public Option must be included when he started his campaign for health care reform.  He always pulled his punches.  He has refused to lead.

He is making demands of US!  Are you getting that?  He is saying that WE must compromise!  We, the majority, the people who elected him.

We must tell Obama that we are NOT willing to compromise after eight years of absolute Republican tyranny.  We have already compromised enough when we "accepted" that we were not going to get single payer.

If we were going to lose, we should have lost better than this.  We should have lost because we faced a minority of Republicans who are nothing but corporate tools, combined with so many Democrats who were clearly doing nothing more than voting the way they were bribed to vote.  Instead, we are stabbed in the back by a weak president and weak Democratic leadership who have no clue what's really going on in the political landscape of this country.

The public option, as well as almost any of our progressive goals, should have been easy.  And if not, they were still imminently doable.  And if not doable, then loosing would simply have inspired the majority to fight harder for our leaders next time, and vote even more Republican senators out who stand in our way.

We must accept that this is what happened.  We must accept that Obama is no better than Harry Reid, all the more so because he was elected on OUR backs, our sweat, our dollars.  We must now take the fight to Obama.

We may have lost health care again. But we must never stop fighting, and we must always direct our fight right where it will do the most good, and right now we must fight Obama.

Call the White House:

1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
Washington, DC 20500-0004
(202) 456-1414

Go visit your Senator's office; this is much more effective.  Call and tell them you're coming, tell them you'd like to speak to someone about this, and then just go.  Don't let them tell you you can't come.  Just go.

Find your senator:
http://www.visi.com/...

Do the same thing with your Representative.

Only if you truly can't go their office, then call.  

Everyone write a letter to all the above, and your local newspaper, too.

If there is a local town hall, go to it!  Tell them what YOU think, don't let them offer pathetic rationalizations.  Make a lot of noise, because apparently that's the way to get taken seriously.

Tell them you are ANGRY.  Tell them you are PISSED!  Tell them we will march in the streets!

(Is it time to march in the streets NOW, Markos???)

Originally posted to Ur Regular on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:08 PM PDT.

Poll

If you learned of a public demonstration planned to protest the Obama Administration's decision to take the public option off the table would you attend?

47%66 votes
15%21 votes
16%23 votes
5%8 votes
10%15 votes
3%5 votes

| 138 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for fighting Obama on this (15+ / 0-)

    Obama thinks he won the election because of his harmonious message and ideals of bipartisanship and healing.  Bullshit.  He won on the wave of anti-Republican, anti-Bush sentiment that began with Katrina.  Kucinich would have won, had he been the nominee.

    Obama worshipers, please, save it.  If you're still believing in the Hollywood rescue, you are deluded, and you're now officially part of the problem.

    •  You can fight him (11+ / 0-)

      you wont win, but you can certainly fight him. With...I dunno...diaries. Obama isn't in any worried about us. Not at all.

      Your best bet is to ignore Obama and fight for what you want Congress. Obama didn't need the netroots to get elected, and so he certainly doesn't give a shit what netroots thinks. Small money, small number votes, didn't even need em. He built his own netroots.

      But CONGRESS, however, is a different matter. There are plenty of Senators and Congressmen with whom the bloggers have some leverage. Thats where the pressure should be applied and thats why Slink and Eve are focused on Congress.

      "If you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra

      by brooklynbadboy on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:12:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tips for reading WAY too much into another bad (7+ / 0-)

      appearance by Sec. Sebellius.

      If Obama AND Pelosi say they're dropping it, then my outrage will be as great as anybody here.

      I'm pretty sure you'll be taking this back tomorrow.

      •  If anything (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike, satanicpanic

        Obama and Sebelius will be taking it back tomorrow, and they'll be taking it back because of the outrage of people like me, although people like me with columns and TV shows will probably have more of an impact.

        It looks like Obama is starting it take it back already.

        •  See, this is where you can't possibly be wrong! (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LordMike, Cinnamon Rollover, MRA NY

          I love this. The source of this is from AP originally, which I've lost track of how many times they've got a health care story wrong.  

          dKos goes crazy. I don't say it's even always the same folks, but I just watch it happen. Then there's the reaction by some folks debunking or playing down the outrage. It turns out to be a statement blown out of proportion by corporate media. The admin. feels it has to respond, and when they do, it's only because folks here expressed their great outrage on this blog.

          Rinse, lather, repeat (as some here love to post)!

          •  Heven't you ever heard of a "Trial Balloon"? (0+ / 0-)

            Those comments by Sebelius did NOT occur in a vacuum.  They were carefully planned to test the air and see what happens.  This gives the president the chance to disclaim it and shoot it down if the reaction is bad.

            And so when test balloons go up, the proper response is to FREAK OUT and start screaming!  One must create the bad reaction and force the president to disown it.

            Yet it nevertheless shows that he is seeking a way to abandon the public option.  If he does not, if he instead picks it up and champions it, then it will definitely not be because his supporters sat on their asses and didn't make noise when he showed signs of dropping it.

            I'll repeat my main themes of this diary:

            Obama has abandoned our cause, and we must hassle him to take it back up.

            People who believe that all these setbacks are part of some master plan to come from behind at the last minute and win the game are deep in denial, and are part of the problem.

            Nothing comes to those who sit on their ass.

            •  Yeah, who's rationalising now? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PaintyKat, zapus

              Pretty much anything can be interpreted to be anything. Nobody has a wire on white house meetings, and all this divination one way or the other gets real old, real fast.

              Fight for what you want and make loud noises about it, but quit interpreting everything as solid gold fact and getting all pissy declaring war on people. Really turns me off this place.

              Let the circular firing begin!

              by Grass on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:21:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're free to leave this place. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CoEcoCe

                And your argument is devolving.  "Pretty much anything can be interpreted to be anything," is an argument used when you can't think of anything else to say.  What does this even mean?

                Nevermind; you're wrong.  "Anything" cant be "interpreted to be anything."  What Sebelius did was release a trial balloon.  If you can't see that, then get educated.

                And it is telling that you have to resort to insults like "Pissy" and misstate my quite rational suggestion to fight Obama on his positions as "declaring war on people."  I guess that means you lose.

                •  You aren't free to invite anyone else to leave (0+ / 0-)

                  dkos.  

                  You can rattle your keyboard all you want but suggesting others leave this community is beyond anything you are empowered to do.

                  This is a community and even telling a Kucinich supporter that you disagree with their BS attacks on the President is not reason for banning.

                  And most importantly, I hope you are standing when you are writing here on dkos, otherwise you are sitting on your ass rattling your gums and that is the same as doing nothing.

                  PaintyKat

                  WWYTR? tikkyn olam - repairing the world.

                  by PaintyKat on Mon Aug 17, 2009 at 03:12:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Then he really needs to (5+ / 0-)

        sit his cabinet down and have a meeting about staying on message. They had preternaturally superb message control during the campaign; why can;t they get'em all on the same page now?

        I'd like nothing more than to stand behind him on this fight and turn all my attention to to Congress, but every time one of these mixed messages emerges, just look what happens.

        The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

        by sidnora on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:46:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you sure they don't? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sidnora, Johnny Q, AuroraDawn

          Are you sure this was a slip-up?

          I'm reserving judgement for the moment, myself.

          The real enemy of the good is not the perfect, but the mediocre.

          by Orange County Liberal on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:56:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not at all. (0+ / 0-)

            In fact I'm more sure that it's exactly the message they intend to send.

            All I can do in response is "yell louder", which I will be doing, on the phone to my rep and at her upcoming town hall (Not really yelling, she's been just about perfect on this issue and I want to offer as much support as possible).

            At some point soon, we will find out whether this is a trial balloon floated to see just how loud they can get us to yell, or a real capitulation. But if you suggest that on this type of diary, you get called a concern troll.

            The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

            by sidnora on Mon Aug 17, 2009 at 08:12:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  No he wont (0+ / 0-)

        They can pass a public option cure cancer frog march Bush whatever and there will be a certain segment that would rather complain and demoralize.

        Today we are all Iranian!

        by Adept2u on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:53:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Please get over yourself (10+ / 0-)

      The time has come to take the fight to Obama

      what a joke, why not take the fight to the bluedogs and repubs who have sworn to kill the public option.

      Meanwhile Netroots Poll showed 47% will supoort a bill without public option, are we gonna take the fight to them too?

      •  Why not? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Orange County Liberal, golconda2

        You didn't read my diary, did you?

        What good does it do to fight them if the President has abandoned our cause?

        •  My point is you are barking (8+ / 0-)

          at the wrong tree, if Obama had the full support of Senate Dems we would have signed a bill into law in August.

          This stuff does not help us at all.

          •  If Obama was a LEADER, not a triangulator... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Orange County Liberal, golconda2

            we'd see him out there along with his team selling a public option.  LBJ sold Medicare!

            The problem is Obama is a weak leader, and you can tell he is not 'into' this business at all of working on the hard issues.

            Ted Kennedy said at the Obama convention last year that President Kennedy didn't say 'we can't go to the moon because it's too far.'  Obama would say 'it's too far.'

            We have in Obama a weak leader and someone who is ideologically confused.  FDR, there was a leader, so much so that the industrialists mounted a coup against him.

            Link:
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/...

            The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush’s Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression.

            •  don't want to HR you, so (4+ / 0-)

              i'll BOO your comment.

              From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

              by satrap on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:52:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  WTF (6+ / 0-)

              The problem is Obama is a weak leader, and you can tell he is not 'into' this business at all of working on the hard issues.

              Dude this is the same president who was accused of doing too much. All this because of sebelius comments? We do not even have a final bill yet

              Unbelievable

            •  I'll boo it too! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RoCali, Lost and Found

              BOO.

            •  Here's the thing I see in this. (5+ / 0-)

              The President ran a deft campaign, but so far he hasn't shown the same skill in actually governing.

              The real enemy of the good is not the perfect, but the mediocre.

              by Orange County Liberal on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:01:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  People round here want a liberal Bush as far (5+ / 0-)

                as I can tell. Doing things the wrong way for the right reasons.

                Let the circular firing begin!

                by Grass on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:24:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Doing things the wrong way? (0+ / 0-)

                  How so?  Like issuing signing statements?  No liberal here has called for that so far as I know.  On the contrary, we want him to take a stand, push hard for it, and not drop it if the opposition doesn't like it.  The Republicans aren't even negotiating honestly, do you really expect him to try to work with them?

                  •  No, I mean people here want a Rove operative (0+ / 0-)

                    and a sheep like Democratic congress that does everything it's asked for regardless of what the public wants. It would be fantastic for America. You'd have UHC in 6 months. But when it works the other way around it's like living under a dictatorship.

                    I'm in the UK. I'm absolutely fed up with every single MP following the party line because if they don't the whip threatens them by withholding committee positions and any chance of becoming a minister. Anybody in the parliament who has an independent mind is an inconsequential nobody who will have zero impact on any bills.

                    Congress needs to be terrified of the electorate, not lobbyists or the White House. Unfortunately, if the polls are right, health care is lacking overwhelming numbers in that department. If I was American, I'd be mighty pissed idiots are buying the fricking Death Panel shit.

                    Let the circular firing begin!

                    by Grass on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:59:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't buy the polling (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Grass
                      - they are saying that Obama's numbers are going down because of healthcare, but why?  Because he's doing too much, or not enough?  They don't say.  They also shows mobs of nutcases on TV and act as if they are representative.  They're not.  

                      People in Congress should vote their conscience, but that's not what's happening.  A guy like Max Baucus, who owes his position almost entirely to the industry he's supposed to be regulating can make a decision for 300+ million Americans, 299.5 million he doesn't represent.  Furthermore, with the 60 vote minimum, nothing can get done.  If Max Baucus, Ben Nelson, et al, don't like the public option, fine, but at least let it come up for a vote.  These people are actively trying to subvert the will of the people, and when things were the other way around, they acted as though it was their job to go along with every stupid idea Bush came up with.  So yeah, it would suck to not have some independent thinkers, but these guys are not that way.  

                      •  The 60 vote shit makes a mockery of American (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        satanicpanic

                        Democracy. I don't recall the filibuster being used once by the Democrats, another area some people would love to see them emulate the Republicans in.

                        It pretty much guarantees that the Democrats are only ever gonna get watered down, ineffectual bills passed, especially with a big tent party.

                        Let the circular firing begin!

                        by Grass on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 07:22:22 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  It is Obama's Job (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Corwin Weber, CoEcoCe

            to GET the full support of the senate dems.

            THAT is one of the things he is failing at!

            And I must protest, for the umpteenth time, that there is no merit to the statements, made offhandedly by many commenters, that criticizing our leader for NOT upholding our principles somehow hurts our cause.

            Liberals should always speak out when they think something is wrong.  Leave sheepish behavior to the Republicans.

      •  I didn't know that figure from the (0+ / 0-)

        netroots poll.  I will say there is a certain enormous tide of emotion that we as a forum have invested in the Public Option, which is fascinating in that 60 days ago very, very, very few Americans had ever even heard of the term.

        From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

        by satrap on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:59:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Is this a snark diary? (8+ / 0-)

      I'm serious.

    •  Obama's not the problem. (16+ / 0-)

      The DINOs in the senate are the problem here.  You want to be angry at someone?  Need someone to blame?  Blame Harry Reid for being an abject FAILURE at keeping his party in line.  No way in hell should rogue DINOs like Conrad be running around on the cable networks making veiled threats to join a republican filibuster.  Harry should have been all over that asshole, threatening to kill the dude's earmarks and to strip him of his seniority.  But what does he do?  Fucking nothing.  

      •  Thank you. (5+ / 0-)

        Reid & Conrad & Baucus are the people who deserve to hear our outrage.

      •  A sitting President... (0+ / 0-)

        ....is the ranking member of his party.  He could very easily get the support you all claim he doesn't have.

        '...now, Senator.... I don't mean to make any threats here, but the President is terribly disappointed in you.  This is a core Democratic issue and you don't seem to be with the team here.  Your constituents want you to vote with us whether you realize it or not, and nationally there's even more support.

        ...so, off the record, Senator.... get with the fucking program or we'll pull all party support from you.  You think you have a tough re-election campaign as it is?  Try voting against us.  Try running with no financial or political support from the party.  Try getting elected as Persona Non Grata in your own party.  Your constituents are fucking morons, but even they're not stupid enough to let you pull a Lieberman.  Got it, asswipe?'

        See how easy that is?

    •  You are nuts on (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      notrouble, Anima

      kucinich, and cynical as hell to  boot, if you actually believe what you wrote.

      From Neocon to sane- thanks to Obama- and Kos.

      by satrap on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:48:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In retrospect (0+ / 0-)

      I wish I hadn't wasted my time on your drivel. You should apologize to the good diarist you insulted.

      Capital is only the fruit of labor, [...] Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
      President Lincoln, December 3, 1861

      by notrouble on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:41:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah, that's what the President should be (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Orange County Liberal

    doing - massive head fakes.  As if this were a game of basketball.

    Although I'm not sure calling your reps will do much good if, in fact, the President is already conceding on the issue of a public option.  Doesn't seem to be the way for him to negotiate a positive result - by giving up before the vote has been taken.

    •  Well, since pressure from the right.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      golconda2

      ...is what caused Obama to possibly drop the public option, pressure form the left may help him reverse it...

      DARTH SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
      LANDO REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

      by LordMike on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:48:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I certainly hope so (0+ / 0-)

        But the idea that this was some "massive head fake" by the President and his staff is ludicrous.  If he really wants to play games, that, I suppose, is her prerogative.  But I for one find the subject of inadequate overprice health care in this country to be way too serious to play such games.

      •  Yes, the stamping of their widdle feeties . . . (0+ / 0-)

        . . . must be keeping the poor President awake at night. Clearly he's too groggy to notice he has the largest margin in Congress in a generation.

        The real enemy of the good is not the perfect, but the mediocre.

        by Orange County Liberal on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:04:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not really... (0+ / 0-)

          ...only about 47% of congress are true democrats (according to Nate)... the rest are blue dogs... we don't even have a majority... in the Senate we do, but that doesn't seem to be enough, either 'cos of the stupid filibuster rules....

          DARTH SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
          LANDO REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

          by LordMike on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 07:31:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So the President should just pack it in? (0+ / 0-)

            If we can't give him 400 seats in the House and 90 seats in the Senate, it's a wash?

            Lesser men have done far more with slimmer margins. You're just making the case that the current Administration is weak sauce. Well done.

            The real enemy of the good is not the perfect, but the mediocre.

            by Orange County Liberal on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 09:43:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The problem that plagues Obama... (0+ / 0-)

              ...is the same problem that plagued Clinton and Carter... Congress couldn't give a damn what the president wants....  All they want is to be re-elected... and to be re-elected is easy... you do nothing, get some pork for the district/state, and go home and be happy...  This "doing stuff" sucks... it involves work and pissing off people... forget it!!!

              Hell, even republicans have problems, sometimes... Bush didn't get immigration reform or the destruction of Social Security....  As punishment, Rove personally took Trent Lott out to put in more of a lackey as Senate majority leader.  It STILL didn't work!

              DARTH SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
              LANDO REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

              by LordMike on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 10:59:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I'm still wondering..... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike

        ...what the fuck we're doing electing people who have to be forced to do the most basic of right things?

        Why are we electing petulant children to public office?

        •  elections are simple systems (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LordMike

          shit in , shit out.

          look at our public representatives, then look at america...
          most of the represent/are sub-mental, and a few of them insist on thinking.

          first we have to invest a lot of money into education, we have to get our country out of the dark ages.

          on the other hand, since this is a crisis  of leadership (congressional, etc) we can assume that much of the problem with fix it self, by the old generation dying (nothing against old people, it's just progressive evolution) and fresh blood replacing them. if we look at the demographic stats younger=progressiver..
          and old=conservativer generally, and i am anti soylent green!

          it's really simple, better people elect better representatives.
          and when i say better, i mean, people who actually believe in the concept of a federal government.

  •  This meme will never end. (14+ / 0-)

    If he signs a crappy bill it's merely a tactic in the long game of 11-demensional Matrix kung fu.

    "I welcome death, but not subjugation." --Iranian protest chant

    by Eryk on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:12:39 PM PDT

  •  or maybe the media (7+ / 0-)

    is just trying to push the left's buttons by blowing up statements that aren't really at odds with the admin's past rhetoric.

    The time has come to take the fight to Obama.

    Considering the circular firing squad has already been doing this for months, don't you think it's time to try a different strategy?

    •  Cliches will not be replied to. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Corwin Weber

      "The circular firing squad" being one of them.

      Have the courage to put it into your own words, and explain it.

      •  well, in that case (0+ / 0-)

        I guess I shouldn't have responded to your diary.

        Good luck with further demoralizing the left! It's worked wonders for reform activists so far!

        •  Well, since that's not a cliche (0+ / 0-)

          but merely a grossly illogical false dichotomy, I'll respond.

          I am doing nothing to demoralize the left.  I may be demoralizing Obama fairy-tale believers, but like Santa Clause, it's time to abandon childish things.

          For leftists, when the president is in the way of your legislation, you fight him, whether you voted for him or not!  And if you fight hard enough, you might win!  It doesn't happen often, but sometimes it does.  And sometimes you get just a little bit better deal than if you had sat back and trusted the president to remember you.

          In the future, please try to comment with something thoughtful, reasoned, original, and just some ad-hominem or cliche.

  •  Don't let facts stand in the way of a rant. (11+ / 0-)

    He abandoned repealing warrantless wiretaps.  He is issuing signing statements, clinging to the unitary executive.  He abandoned us in the economic bailout and gave all the money to Wall Street.  He abandoned us on even ATTEMPTING to bring Single Payer into the national discussion on health care reform.

    Obama never said that he was against all signing statements. Signing statements aren't inherently a bad thing -- abuse of them is. So far, Obama hasn't abused them.

    Single payer isn't a part of the national discussion in large part because it was politically unviable. Bringing it into the discussion any more than they did would have meant that they couldn't cut the deals that are even giving the public option a fighting chance. Without those deals, the public option would be dead right now.  

    Congratulations though on highlighting the idiocy that is DailyKos today.  Not only has the WH position on the public option not changed at all despite the media spin and the hyperventilation on the blogs, but there is also no grand 11-dimensional chess either.

    Obama wants the public option. He wouldn't be out there defending it and talking about it, if he didn't. Doesn't mean we'll get the public option, but if we don't, it's not going to be because Obama didn't want it. He does. The only reason why this thing is alive is because the WH wants it to be. If they didn't, there's no way that it would've survived 4 out of 5 committees.

    •  I agree. (4+ / 0-)

      If anything, the statement by Sebelius amounts to this:

      "We want the public option. The votes might not be there. If YOU want a public option, you're gonna have to fight hard for it. If you don't fight hard, and the ultimate bill doesn't have a public option, we're likely gonna sign what does get passed. It's up to you, folks!"

    •  I hate to be crude (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stroszek, Anima

      but watching these fights is like watching drunk homeless guys jerk off.  They never finish.

      Blagojevich/Palin '12.

      by fou on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:03:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hey Newsie (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat

      We need one of your RATIONAL diaries right about now.

    •  So lets see if I can sum up: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CoEcoCe

      Obama hasn't abused signing statements.  (He only repeated Bush's line that he doesn't have to follow the law if he doesn't want to.  That's not abuse, nope.)

      Single payer isn't politically viable because it isn't politically viable.  (Funny how that works with a thing that is favored by 60% of the population in a Democracy.  But hey, I keep forgetting: Its not politically viable.  Silly me.)

      Starting the bargaining from your strongest, most favorable position is the worst bargaining strategy.  Okay.  Next time I go to buy a car, I'll start with the highest price I can afford.

      Obama "wants the public option."  Gosh, he really, really wants it so much.  Every night he prays to go for it, and he's being real nice to everyone so Santa will bring it to him on Christmas.

      Everything that is good is there because the WH wants it to be!  They are magically powerful!  We must never doubt them and their powers, the good leaders at WH.

      Listen, News, i don't appreciate being called an idiot.  You and your kind are more like RedState wingnuts that thoughtful progressives.  You seem to be here (at least in my diary) only to be insulting and repeat the same tired talking points.

      But because you only called me an idiot and didn't resort to "Quit whining" or an "STFU", then I'll patiently explain it to you one more time:

      Obama has shown us in the past that he will NOT support progressive values if there is even a hint of right wing attack.  he is chickenshit, and has let us down before.  The comments today by Sebelius were not accidental, but came from the magical WH, and were meant to prepare us for what's to come.

      Starting with Single Payer would have given us a greater bargaining position today.  It is a well-known plan that enjoys popular support to the tune of 60%.  Even if we had to bargain that away, it would have meant a stronger public option in the final bill.

      Your belief on bargaining is the opposite of how real bargains are made.  The Republicans don't bargain that way, NO ONE bargains that way, except a certain brand of Democrats who have been fucking us up for decades.

      Next; "Wanting" the public option is in no way the same as, "Fighting for" the public option.  If you can interpret Obama's weak statements about the public option as "fighting for it," then you are deluded.  He has consistently set it up as a bargaining chip only, never expressing commitment to it, always saying he's willing to accept other things, and willing to accept whatever the house and senate send to him.

      That is not fighting for it, even if you want me to believe it is.

      Finally, your position that we should not push Obama for more progressive stances and stronger support of our goals is in stark ignorance of the way American politics works.  Pushing our leaders to do the right things has always been the only way to get them to do it.

      If you can't fight for our cause, then at least get out of the way.

  •  Why are you directing your "fight" at Obama... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Balam, Blue VA, Cinnamon Rollover

    You should be FIGHTING Congress which is after all WRITING the legislation and you should be "FIGHTING" your fellow citizens who are sure as heck NOT engaged in true health reform...

  •  You got the last part right, anyway (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike

    Call the White House:

    1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
    Washington, DC 20500-0004
    (202) 456-1414

    Go visit your Senator's office; this is much more effective.  Call and tell them you're coming, tell them you'd like to speak to someone about this, and then just go.  Don't let them tell you you can't come.  Just go.

    Find your senator:
    http://www.visi.com/...

    Do the same thing with your Representative.

    Only if you truly can't go their office, then call.  

    Everyone write a letter to all the above, and your local newspaper, too.

    tweetivism.comA cool tool to tweet your Congressmembers with Health Care Reform messages.

    by Catte Nappe on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:23:09 PM PDT

  •  good for you! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, fromdabak

    democracy is a messy sport. especially when people care enough about it.
    the media, congress & and most of the public, still haven't figured out how to deal with barack obama. he is a new type of politician. he has experienced the rev. wright scandal, the "cling to guns" scandal, the "muslim" scandal, the bithers, the deathers, and you know what,
    he always comes on top.

    but he has to deal with a stupid populous, stupid media, and a stupid congress (all for the most part).

    so what do you expect the admin to do ? lay all their cards on the table ?
    if we where scientists studying obama, we would need more time to observe, measure, & compare what he actually gets done before we can claim we have a coherent theory of obama.

    i want single payer universal, but if we get lower cost, improved quality, increased coverage i'll be happy for all the folks that will be added to the health insurance rolls.

    maybe for us it seems like a bad compromise, but for many people this may turn out to be a vast improvement.

    •  Are you suggesting (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      golconda2

      yet another variation on, "Obama has a secret plan"?

      And "Obama always comes out on top"?  Do you actually believe that?  Is that an article of faith?

      •  not of faith, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike

        but of historical facts.
        just look at the last two years of obama's life and tell me he doesn't
        always come on top .

        and like i said, it is still too early to write him off. like he says of change was easy, we would have had it already.
        i dont know about a secret plan, but i do know that he functions within a drastically distorted system (congress, media, public) and if you want to reach stated goals, you dont always use the same route to get there..

        yes, we should apply pressure on our elected representatives to produce what they campaigned on.  btw, where was all this public option rage for the last 16 years (or over 200 years if you wanna be a dick about it..)?

        dont make perfect the enemy of good. and for most people good is much better then bad.

        •  The last two years of his life (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          golconda2, teachme2night, LSmith

          are irrelevant, frankly.  Yes, he's clever, and smart, but can he play cricket?

          Being president and herding the cats that are the Democratic Party is a very particular skill, and everything he's accomplished in his life means NOTHING if he gets outsmarted by the VERY experienced corporate mechanisms and media savvy of the Republican party.

          And I disagree with another point: some of the pathways to achieving political goals are well known.  He's doing the wrong things, like insisting on bipartisanship and not leading the fight with specific goals, and he's not getting his subordinates to get the party unified, and he's not rallying his base.

          These are the ways to achieve results, albeit in simple form.  But instead he's opting for negotiating with vampires, bargaining with the devil, expecting honor from theives, all because of his belief in some weird kind of incrementalism, national unity, and "Bipartisanship."  There are his theories, from what I can tell, and while those sound noble, they don't work, and nobody wants them.

          •  i'll be glad to sadly agree with you (0+ / 0-)

            if in fact in a few moths, when he signs something, we get shafted.

            until then, pressure and rational debate is the only productive thing we can do.

            we cant kill all the people who are hurdles to progress, or control their minds without killing them.

            i keep saying this, politics is a process, not an event.
            i understand your frustration, you could try to understand obama's.

          •  oh, and his last 2 years (0+ / 0-)

            are not irrelevant.

            if you try to understand something (obama, and otherwise) you have to see previous case studies. that's how you can infer what he's likely to do next.

            the only thing he's ever lost was his first congressional campaign, and he has learned alot since.

            i dont want to be an obama apologist, but you gotta have more patience.

            plus, imagine, just for once sec. how much worse it could have been ....
            (president mccain, vice president palin...)

            come on..

          •  Wow, thanks for saying this better than I could (0+ / 0-)

            He's doing the wrong things, like insisting on bipartisanship and not leading the fight with specific goals, and he's not getting his subordinates to get the party unified, and he's not rallying his base.

            These are the ways to achieve results, albeit in simple form.  But instead he's opting for negotiating with vampires, bargaining with the devil, expecting honor from theives, all because of his belief in some weird kind of incrementalism, national unity, and "Bipartisanship."  There are his theories, from what I can tell, and while those sound noble, they don't work, and nobody wants them.

            Absolutely spot on. The major problem, I think, is that all along the "change" that Obama was talking about was changing the Washington culture. I think that that matters more to him than anything. Whereas a whole lot of us thought that "change" meant actually taking the country back after 30 years of out-of-control capitalism.

            •  i'm suspicious of (0+ / 0-)

              when people start demonizing their opponents...

              conservatives, with all their faults, are still american.
              it wasnt easy for them to screw up anything they touched since nixon.
              and it isn't going to be easy fixing it again.

              your argument is based on a zero sum game (if obama meant change at one thing, americans meant change as something else), but obama is post-modern,
              he doesn't think in term of either or, he thinks in term of both.

              so the lack of imagination was not his, rather it was the people you talk about..

    •  Yes. Now, if only he had brought us with him... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      musing85

      he has experienced the rev. wright scandal, the "cling to guns" scandal, the "muslim" scandal, the bithers, the deathers, and you know what,
      he always comes out on top.

      •  he wants more then (0+ / 0-)

        53% support for this.

        i dont think it's about bringing us along,
        i think it's about bringing as many people that did
        not vote for him along for the ride.

        i guess he's trying to unite us, not divide us...
        and there are many forces against that (teabaggers inc.)

        if we keep our eyes on the ball (affordability, quality, quantity healthcare) there has to be compromises because americans want everything and not pay for it.

        the real problem with congressional democrats is that they are not honest with us about the tax problem, taxes rates & allocation.
        i would prefer it if there was more pressure on politicians to raise taxes, rather then just provide more services...

  •  Give me a freaking break, pal. (10+ / 0-)

    We didn't elect him dictator. He can't just fix shit with the snap of a finger. If people want a public option then they need to put the pressure on the people who need to be pressured: their senators and representatives.

    Quit whining. Go down to your senator's office and do something productive.

    •  Roosevelt was derided and praised as a "dictator" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      golconda2

      ...simultaneously. He had the vision and courage to stand up to corporate power and lead. Obama has neither.  (Thom Hartman played some fiery Roosevelt quotes on Friday attacking the "economic Royalists.") You'll get none of talk- let alone action- from Obama. He pawns off the dirty work on us and Congress to give himself cover when he sells us out.
      He's a Goldman Sachs lackey. Period.
      Spare me the lecture about contacting my reps. Their staffs' all know my voice at this point.
      I'm not "whining." I'm fighting constantly for progressive causes. But that fight doesn't include the Democratic Party anymore. They've been close to useless since Henry Wallace had the wisdom to leave them after WWII

  •  Hey! STFU! (9+ / 0-)

    You aren't supposed to talk bad about Obama here. That's a no-no.
      We are all supposed to be good, little sheeple and do our part in helping Obama and corporate America fuck us all good and hard.

     Oh, sure, you complain about this not being in your best interest. Well, STFU commie! We only allow patriots here. If you keep talking like that we'll rat you out to Homeland Security...for your own good of course. And for the good of your family, who will be in an adjoining cell at Gitmo.

     We all must suffer and sacrifice for the good of our corporate masters. If you don't agree then STFU!

    "The people have only as much liberty as they have the intelligence to want & the courage to take." - Emma Goldman

    by gjohnsit on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:29:52 PM PDT

    •  why are descenters always told to stfu here (0+ / 0-)

      we dont have to agree on tactics to agree on strategy,
      you did not have to read his diary,

      obviously, the diarist wants proper universal healthcare,
      our loyalty is to progressives concepts, not politicians.

    •  And you're also (0+ / 0-)

      Not supposed to NOT over-react without having all the facts either. Gasps at the thought of actually waiting for the president to act upon what he's been accused of. Please with the hyberbole. So sick of this fucking place today.

      You aren't supposed to talk bad about Obama here. That's a no-no.

      Totally in the tank for Keith O'!

      by Staci on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:40:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've been hearing that for months (6+ / 0-)

        Every time that Obama does something, or is about to do something, that disgusts me, I'm told by people to "Wait. It's not as bad as it looks."

          Give me a break! Of course it is as bad as it looks.
          People here need to start embracing an agenda, rather than a personality.

        "The people have only as much liberty as they have the intelligence to want & the courage to take." - Emma Goldman

        by gjohnsit on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:50:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And others (0+ / 0-)

          Need to stop thinking that those of us who don't yell and scream are naive idiots. Like I said in another comment, we get it too. But somehow if you're not handwringing on this site you're too "blind" to see past President Obama's "personality".

          Just because one does not express profusely their opposition to some of his positions does not mean we haven't "embraced his agenda" as you put it.

          I'm not a wide-eyed idiot - Im a rational thinker who likes to have ALL the facts before I start screaming my head off

          Totally in the tank for Keith O'!

          by Staci on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:07:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Obama has abandoned us. (4+ / 0-)

    You're absolutely right. Most here will be rationalizing away his caving into to corporate power for the next three years. You forgot to mention abandoning "card check"-- abandoning labor. And you forgot to mention abandoning the "Rustbelt"-- lying about promising to renegotiate NAFTA.
    Obama didn't abandon Alvaro Uribe or the coup leaders of Honduras, however. He's a fraud. Pure and simple.
    Thanks for having the courage to speak the truth to the blind.
    Good Luck!  

  •  And not just an ORDINARY head fake (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hatdog, John Gannon, screaming target
    See, while the rest of us are playing checkers, Obama is playing 11-DIMENSIONAL HEAD FAKE.
  •  Loved The Head Fake Diary (0+ / 0-)

    Makes a lot of sense.  I hadn't thought of that angle.  Obama is smart, strategic, and an excellent politician.  I am none of the above.

    Besides it is more fun to read a thoughtful diary then a "the sky is falling, Obama has abandoned us" diary.  Fifty percent of the diaries on Kos fall into that category.

  •  Obama won the presidency because he (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, hatdog, justCal, teachme2night

    harvested tens of millions of dollars
    from many small donors. Granted we live in
    a world of real politics, but certain promises
    are worth standing up for. Healthcare has reached
    critical mass. Lyndon Johnson got the Civil Rights act passed along with Medicare despite incredible opposition. He was a one term president (albeit as a result of Vietnam), yet he will be remembered for two pieces of great legislation. I think the Senate Democrats can get 50 votes, but I'm afraid that Reid (along with a large group of Democratic Senators) is more concerned about controlling congress than helping the American People. Very Sad Indeed!!

  •  Already held the public demonstration yesterday (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hatdog

    Got cooked in the heat and threatened among other things.  I think this really sucks!

    An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

    by don mikulecky on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:49:03 PM PDT

  •  Oh so you want to fight Obama? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anotherCt Dem, indepenocrat

    I have an idea cupcake why dont you go fight Republicans.  Freaking idiot.

    Today we are all Iranian!

    by Adept2u on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 05:49:35 PM PDT

  •  You know, this is completely unfair. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leevank, notrouble

    You're saying he's abandoned us because he hasn't moved heaven and earth and gotten rid of all the entrenched interests in Washington in six months?  Shouldn't you be angry at Kent Conrad?

    If Obama had the votes, he'd sign a bill with a public option, I have no doubt about that.  If he vetoed a bill with a public option, your anger would be well placed, but it seems to me you've forgotten basic civics.  Obama is the head of one of three co-equal branches of government.  That means the legislature has as much influence over the final piece of legislation as he does; and while I agree with you that the diarist you cite is probably thinking too wishfully, I think your whining is enormously counterproductive.  

    I've got news for you.  Your anger is worthless, and you abandon progressive principles when you indulge it because it's completely ineffective.  If you want a public option, you have to create a disincentive for insurance companies to block it.  Whining on DK that "Obama abandoned us!"  will do nothing to stop insurance companies from raping people.  It only serves to politically weaken the push for health care reform by splintering progressives and this is how Republicans beat us every fucking time.  They kill us every time we whine like little bitches.  If you wonder why Rahm told the progressive caucus to fuck off, that's why.  Unlike you, Rahm's a player, and he knows that Obama would never recover politically if we did the Republican's work for them and killed health care reform ourselves.

    When Obama ran for office, he didn't get there screaming about Bush.  He is a black man, his name is Barack Hussein Obama, and he's the President of the United States.  Obviously he got there because he's a brilliant statesman a fiercely effective politician, and now he stands poised to pass some form of health care legislation that will introduce long-overdue regulation of the health insurance industry.  That's a fuck of a lot more than you've done with this silly rant.

    Blagojevich/Palin '12.

    by fou on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 06:01:50 PM PDT

    •  Wow. A little over the top there... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      musing85, CoEcoCe

      Whining on DK that "Obama abandoned us!"  will do nothing to stop insurance companies from raping people.

      The use of the word "whining" as a synonym for "saying something I disagree with" has robbed the word of all meaning. Are you "whining" about diaries like this, fou? Or do you just disagree with them? I don't think you're whining, and I don't think the diarist is either.

      And it's really okay for a diary to do less than "stop insurance companies from raping people." Really, if it's okay to criticize a diary for not doing that, isn't it more reasonable to criticize a president for not doing it?

      •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

        And it's really okay for a diary to do less than "stop insurance companies from raping people." Really, if it's okay to criticize a diary for not doing that, isn't it more reasonable to criticize a president for not doing it?

        To what end?!  To what end are you criticizing the president?  That's my point!  Criticizing the president and implying that he and he alone had the power to stop the insurance company, and that he refused is frankly unfair and counterproductive.  Whining in the blog does nothing to create the disincentives we need to stop these bastards, and asserting your right to disagree is a complete and totally waste of time.

        And no, I don't care that the diarist disagrees with me, or that you'd characterize my opinion as whining.  I'm an adult.  I don't cry when I don't get what I want, I figure out another way to get it; and I certainly don't cry when someone calls me names.

        Blagojevich/Palin '12.

        by fou on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 07:11:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah, well (0+ / 0-)

          Once again, I see someone grossly misstating my statements in order to prove their point.  If you have to do that, then you are being reactionary.

          Look up the term: False Dichotomy.  It means reducing (or mischaracterising) a dilemma or argument as either being black or white.

          I did not "Criticiz(e) the president and (imply) that he and he alone had the power to stop the insurance company," and if you had any interest in hearing a new idea, you'd have seen that right off.

          I said that he is essential to the fight.  I might be said to have said that he can defeat the cause from the inside.  I did say, in so many words, that he and he alone can lead the fight.

          It give me some comfort that most of those opposed to my diary are grossly misinterpreting what I say, imposing false dichotomies, or are merely mad insult bombers, like the cupcake thrower up there.

          •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

            ... he and he alone can lead the fight.

            Not true.  Again, there are three coequal branches of government.  He's not the only leader in Washington.  He's perhaps the most visible leader, but not the only one capable of leading this fight.

            It's true he is essential to the fight, but so are you and and so I'm I and so is time.  If we don't get it all this time, all is not lost.  I just don't see the value in criticizing the president when he may not able to get what we want with the means at his disposal right now.  His heart's in the right place, and when he has the means and the opportunity he'll get it done.  

            And nobody grossly misinterpreted what you said.  It was hardly complicated after all.  The fact remains, criticizing the president before a deal is reached is enormously counterproductive, and it plays into Republican hands.  You did criticize the president, did you not?

            Blagojevich/Palin '12.

            by fou on Sun Aug 16, 2009 at 08:26:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just because you keep repeating something (0+ / 0-)

              doesn't make it true.

              I explained how you misinterpreted what I wrote, and you can't walk it back.

              And criticizing the president when he is fucking up is an essential thing.  I've explained it all in comments above.  

  •  Can someone explain (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    indepenocrat

    what the diarists troll classification would be?
    Im new at this

  •  President Obama hasn't abandoned us! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fou, indepenocrat

    And he hasn't abandoned the public option.  He still favors it.  He's said that repeatedly.  But if we don't have the votes, he can't institute a public option by decree, and contrary to what seems to be the majority opinion around here, to veto a bill simply because it didn't include a public option would be the height of irresponsibility.

    Imagine you're someone without health insurance, and that you can't get health insurance because you or a member of your family has a significant pre-existing condition.  You live every day knowing that a serious illness will land you in bankruptcy and probably cause you to lose your house.  Or imagine that you've got decent insurance, but lose your job and can't get other insurance because you or a member of your family has a significant pre-existing condition.  Or imagine that you're a small business owner who wants to provide good health insurance for your employees, but one of your employees (or their child) has developed a serious illness which has caused your rates to skyrocket.

    To veto a bill that addresses all of these problems, simply because it doesn't include a public option, is essentially to tell all of these people, "SCREW YOU!  I care more about my political purity than I do about the welfare of you and your children."

    If Barack Obama were stupid enough to do that, he would be met with unparalleled fury by the millions of people who would be helped by the bill he had vetoed -- and he would deserve it!

    Of the three hypotheticals I named, I've been in a position where I could easily have been in two of them.  At one time, many years ago, a group of us decided to leave a large law firm and form our own small firm.  We wanted to provide good health insurance for our employees (and ourselves), and we asked our insurance broker whether he would recommend purchasing an individual policy for the firm, or going with the bar association's group policy.  He told us that while we could do somewhat better with our own plan as long as we all stayed healthy, if one of us developed a serious illness, we'd see our rates drastically increase, while the bar association plan spread the risk over enough people that one person (or even several) getting seriously ill wouldn't make a signficant difference in the rates.  Fortunately, we went with the bar association plan, because about a year later, one of our secretaries developed a severe kidney problem that required a transplant.  If we'd gotten our own policy, the rates would probably have gone up so much that we couldn't have afforded insurance for anybody.

    Both my wife and I have chronic kidney conditions that, while they haven't caused us any serious problems yet (other than high blood pressure), could potentially require a transplant at some time in the future.  Fortunately, we're both retired federal employees, but if we were self-employed, or our employer didn't provide health insurance spread over a big group, we'd be uninsurable.

    Ideally, I'd support importing the Canadian system lock, stock, and barrel, but we clearly don't have the votes (or the public support) to do that.  Failing that, I'd like a strong public option.  But I'm damned if I'll sacrifice the best interests of people who desperately need health insurance on the altar of my political purity.  And I'm disappointed that so many people here seem ready to condemn President Obama for his reluctance to do so.

  •  But...but... (0+ / 0-)

    Eleven-dimensional chess! Genius! How can we truuuuly know what he's thinking OMG.

  •  So is this diary another experiment? (0+ / 0-)

    Wow.

    Apparently the diarist deleted his first diary, which explained that he is conducting an experiment at Daily Kos.

    •  Fascinating! (0+ / 0-)

      To be precise, Cinnamon, that comment was never in a blog.  And I never did publish that first diary.  

      To educate you a little bit, since you must be new here, that blurb was taken from "My Profile" page. It was only on there for a couple days, I think, before I deleted that line.

      The experiment: I was going to start a tribe on Tribe for occasional but passionate Kossacks, "irregulars" if you will, a small tribe, interested in rational, respectful discussions about how shitty the Democrats are at using the media.  The goal would have been collaboration on research and diaries, with the end result being more thoughtful discussion on that topic, here on Kos, and perhaps some action ideas.

      But I decided not to do it.  One problem was that Tribe just couldn't get it's act together, often going down, being unavailable, and I thought that would be disruptive.  Also, I found that I had less time than I thought I would.  Also also, I figured I should build some kind of history here before that venture.  But I may still try the experiment at some point in the future.

      But, Cinnamon, you win the prize!  This is by far the MOST interesting comment in my diary so far!  Let me engage in a little speculation:

      You didn't like what I said, nor how I responded to detractors, yet could not come up with any good arguments yourself.  Fear set in.  "Must find dirt!  This guy! Oooooo!  He makes me mad!  There must be something EVIL about him!"

      So you googled my screen name, and came up with... OH MY GOD!!!

      ... What exactly?  Well, you found where a douchbag who apparently didn't like my jibe had the same angry reaction that another - I mean, you did, although over far less.  

      So, enough with speculation.  What is your problem?  Come out with it.  Got a comment?  

      Bring it.

      •  Your words have already buried you (0+ / 0-)

        Thus, I doubt I can add much, besides summarize...

        You're a bully and a troll.

        Your diary is full of lies.

        And since you must have the last word, feel free to reply.

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