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There has been a lot of discussion about the possibility that the White House may decide to stick it to its progressive base on health care reform. As the MSM conventional wisdom goes, Obama is losing support among independent voters who, in large part, are happy with their health care and don't want the public option. That couldn't be further from the truth. As Jed Lewison reports, a recent CNN poll shows a 55% support for the public option.

The other interesting piece of news, which is the subject of this diary, is that during the heated August health care debate MSNBC outperformed CNN by 61 percent and FNC by 4 percent in the key 18-34 demographic in prime time. Let me restate this, the cable news channel which has been the most vocal in support of the public option (Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Ed Shultz) and, to a certain extent, single payer, was also the #1 news network among younger viewers during the month of August when all the kooks were supposedly coming out of the woods against health care reform.

TV by the Numbers just headlined: "MSNBC Beats CNN in Primetime in August Among Viewers 25-54". Further down, we find out that the news channel not only beat CNN but also FOX network among younger viewers, Adults 18-34, in primetime. Further more, we learn that “The Rachel Maddow Show” is "the fastest growing cable news show at 9 p.m, up a huge 92 percent in total viewers versus August 2008."

Is the White House paying attention to this?

We are told by the mainstream media that the reason behind Obama's sagging polls is that he is too liberal and that he is losing support among independents because of it. If that were the case, why are 55% of Americans still supporting the public option? Obviously it doesn't add up, and the truth is that, contrary to conventional wisdom, Obama's polls are sagging because he is too corporate and not liberal enough and thus he is losing the support of his base.

The White House has been telling his base to suck it up since it came into office and before: support for the Bush bailout and subsequent Obama bailout of Wall Street, inadequate Stimulus Package, no Iraq pullout and escalation in Afghanistan, and now compromised health care reform. It is my sense that the progressive base of the Democratic party has had enough and for this reason, health care reform and specifically the public option has become the litmus test for progressive democrats.

Obama and the White House should pay serious attention to this and not make the mistake of throwing its base with the sausage scraps. While corporate democrats such as Rahm Emanuel may believe that the party has to bend over in order to maintain the support of pharmaceutical and health insurance corporations in 2010 and 2012, do they really think that such industries will desert the Democratic party now that they are in power for the foreseeable future and the Republican party is reduced to a pulp? I don't think so. Corporations are, by definition, apolitical. All they care about is profit and, for this reason, they will hedge their bets and support both parties as they have always done because they want to have a seat at the table no matter who wins.

Finally, the Obama administration the Democratic Congress have enacted the Wall Street bailout, the GM/Chrysler bailout, and the Stimulus Plan while brushing off overwhelming public opposition. Its line of defense has always been that they did so because they believed their actions to be necessary. Yet, on the health care debate, skewed opinion polls due to relentless corporate propaganda seem to become the all important metric to wether it is politically feasible to pass a strong health care bill.

Since none of this makes sense, it is fair to assume that the base will not be fooled by it and if Obama and the democrats renege on their promise to pass universal, affordable health care reform for all with a strong public option, they will most likely lose a considerable slice of their base: especially the young, 18-34 Democrats who watch MSNBC as they are the ones who have the most to lose from yet another corporate giveaway in the form of a private health insurance mandate without the choice of a strong, and affordable public option.

The only possible positive good outcome in this scenario would be if progressive Democrats in Congress finally accept the fact that there is no future for progressives and their causes in the Democratic party. If health care reform fails to deliver the three important aspects of affordability, accessibility, and cost control, they better start thinking about splitting the party and create a new truly progressive party to the left of the now corporate owned Democratic party.

The timing couldn't be more propitious as the Republicans are in shambles and they could be relegated to the far right for good. We would then have a three party system with the Democrats at the corporate center, and two parties to the left and right of it which may not be able to win a presidency, but could seriously impact the business of Congress. The top down creation of a progressive party which truly represents the American people would create real competition and keep the corporate party duopoly honest (pun intended).

Originally posted to politicjock on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:08 AM PDT.

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      •  It's the beginning of a seismic shift (116+ / 0-)

        in voter attitudes, beginning with young voters, comparable to the way young people responded to the New Deal.

        I'll tell anyone who'll listen that the Democrats have a historic opportunity to widen their base with this health care legislation, but only if it represents real, honest reform that cuts costs and expands coverage.  Only a public option, such as Medicare buy-in, can accomplish this.

        •  If they were ever serious about health care (71+ / 0-)

          reform, they would never have taken single payer off the table.

          I support medicare for all.  Everybody in and everybody pays - something through premiums, co-pays and/or deductibles.  It should be funded through a federal tax on high income individuals and business.  I want our country to join the rest of the civilized world and provide affordable health care to all without taking it out of the hides of the middle class who have nothing left to give.  They've already lost their jobs, homes, and futures, thanks to Bill Clinton and bad US trade policies.

          What I don't support is a bunch of money grubbing, self-serving politicians fucking with medicare, medicaid, and my private insurance in order to feather their own nests and keep their jobs and publicly funded health care.  This is what I believe we are getting currently getting from Democrats and Republicans in Washington, and it started the minute they took single payer off the table.

          They can't be this blind and tone deaf unless it is on purpose.

          "YES WE CAN" doesn't mean he is going to. ~~Daily Show

          by dkmich on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:18:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  A fossil perhaps; supporting young progressives. (15+ / 0-)

          Elements of my generation have done extreme damage to this nation, so I support any generational shift to consistent progressive values.

          Is there any hope of real change until the last boomer slides into the grave?

          Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

          by Fossil on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:24:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Many boomers are progressives too (23+ / 0-)

            and I doubt they've done more harm, proportionally, than any other generation.

            Let's not get out the soylent green just yet.

            ;/

            •  Many, yes - - - - (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PsychoSavannah, rlochow, wmholt, Onomastic

              but it seems to me that we have been overwhelmed by the worst of our generation that seem to have no love for anything other than personal gratification.

              Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

              by Fossil on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:37:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  We caused our share of problems (10+ / 0-)

              But it was our generation that was exposed to the Post War cultural changes that resulted in what we call the culture wars.

              We have won that war and are in the mop-up decades.

              But, our old foes are as loud and nasty as ever, like us, are in the pre-geezer any beyond mode.

              We Liberals and Progressives can look over our shoulders and see millions of younger Americans taking up places beside us, and many more who back our cause.

              Those on the Right, look back to see meager numbers of younger Americans who believe they have answers to America's future.

              "A functioning Democracy must defy economic interests of the elites on behalf of citizens" Christopher Hedges Econ 3.50&Soc. 5.79

              by wmc418 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:55:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I like that: (4+ / 0-)

                We Liberals and Progressives can look over our shoulders and see millions of younger Americans taking up places beside us, and many more who back our cause.

                Those on the Right, look back to see meager numbers of younger Americans who believe they have answers to America's future.

                But we still need to work to ensure that younger Americans will not be saddled with a government that represents only the wealthy and powerful.  And, my opinion is that the best way to do this is to have a robust, medicare-like, public option to provide them with the security to avoid the lever of health care access - a human need - from being used against them.

                And then there is the other thing that we can leave, and something passed on to us from my parent's generation - robust Unions that allow workers to define their life in labor.

                Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

                by Fossil on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:59:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Interesting. The teabaggers are fighting old wars (6+ / 0-)

                Interesting way of looking at it. In many ways, the teabaggers are still fighting culture wars from the Nixon/Goldwater/Agnew era. Actually, with all their howling about "Socialism!", they're actually still fighting wars from the McCarthy/Nixon era. At long last, have they no sense of decency left?

                Actually, someone pointed out to me that the wingnuts are actually fighting battles dating back 100 years, to the beginning of the Modernist era, or 200 years battling the Enlightenment, or even 500 years fighting old scores dating back to the Rennaisance (science vs. religion).

                Silly stuff. I'm embarassed that this kinds of backwards-ass crap is happening in my country.

                •  It takes time (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Fossil

                  Our Constitution was designed to force any major social change requires a higher level of consensus.

                  That fact, and people's lifespans ensure that change is both instant and gradual.

                  Think of the Civil Rights movement and contrast the instant (signing of the legislation) to the human reality. The instant the law was in place, the nation changed legally. REality is, many of the people who formed their personal philosophy prior to the legal changes, accept change by degrees, if at all.

                  I was once told by older neighbor, when talking about the Civil Rights Act, that, to him, "it's like making being right handed criminal, I know if my right arm is cut off I would be happy to have the left one to use, but, being told told that using your right arm is against the law, now, that's something I'll have to work out myself".

                  These old habits don't go away completely, they die out with the people who cannot change do.

                  If you want to get an Idea how long that can be, my Grandfather was born in 1865, Mom in 1927, me in 1951.

                  That is 144 years and counting for three generations.

                  "A functioning Democracy must defy economic interests of the elites on behalf of citizens" Christopher Hedges Econ 3.50&Soc. 5.79

                  by wmc418 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:15:30 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Actually... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mariva, Fossil

                  In many ways, the teabaggers are still fighting culture wars from the Nixon/Goldwater/Agnew era. Actually, with all their howling about "Socialism!", they're actually still fighting wars from the McCarthy/Nixon era. At long last, have they no sense of decency left?

                  Actually most of them are fighting even older wars, they just don't tend to know their history well enough to realize it.

                  :: Hopeful even still ::

                  by Rick Aucoin on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:32:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yep: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Rick Aucoin

                    And fighting the distortions of creationists, what I think of as a subgroup of those teabaggers is like fighting an army of bronze age mummies.

                    If a new idea popped into their mind it would die of loneliness.  Who said something like that  - Twain?

                    Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

                    by Fossil on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:55:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Something like that. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Vappid

                      Between bouts of utter outrage at how our political system is being corrupted and hijacked, and fits of depression over the same thing, I have periods of just feeling sorry for these people.

                      I know people living in trailer parks without so much as a car of their own who would go down in a hail of gunfire for the cause of... the For Profit Insurance Companies.  

                      Willing or unwilling dupes, both types I guess.  Watching the age old struggle between feudalism/tyranny and free thinking liberalism unfold before our eyes, as it has done constantly since... well, since Greece, really.  I hold onto hope only because I can see through the long track of history that the free thinking liberals win, consistently, over the centuries.

                      But I don't have centuries.  I have no health insurance, now.  My wife has no health insurance, now.  I'm 44, male, and have chest pains daily. How long to I have to wait for univeral health care in America?  

                      Not centuries, that's a damn fact.

                      :: Hopeful even still ::

                      by Rick Aucoin on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:50:03 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Damn! (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Rick Aucoin

                        Sorry to hear about your health insurance issues - more of a health care issue.  We are too rich of a nation to allow ANYBODY to be without good access to health care.  That this has gone on for so long only exposes the flaws and failings of our society.

                        @#^%#$^&%#!!!!  What are we here for except to allow people to realize the best quality of life without hurting others or forclosing on a sustainable future?  I have no words for the anger I feel.

                        Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

                        by Fossil on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:00:10 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's all good. (0+ / 0-)

                          By the current system we have, for lack of hundreds of dollars, maybe even thousands of dollars, for a good doctor check of my heart, I'll end up in an emergency room with a heart attack and cost the tax payers 100's of thousands of dollars.

                          That makes sense, right?  sigh

                          :: Hopeful even still ::

                          by Rick Aucoin on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 03:31:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Goat, this is what I've thought, too... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mariva, Fossil

                  The teabaggers are still going on about culture war crap that was mostly decided against them 40 years ago. That's why they are mostly old baby boomers - Nixon's "silent majority" from the 1950's-1970's who saw long haired anti Vietnam protesters and thought of them as anti American traitors.

                  These people bigots hate the thought of a (supposedly) liberal black man in the WH, because all of their lives they were against civil rights.

                  But there's another, younger group - the anti-government kooks - who are much more recent. These people's opinions were formed post Watergate, after government abuses under Nixon were exposed. They believe the Reagan myth of "goverment is the problem". But they are incapable of seeing that it isn't government that's the problem, it's corporate money in government that's the problem.

                  Of course it hurts - you're getting screwed by an elephant.

                  by sean oliver on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:45:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Fossils Unite (0+ / 0-)

            I told my boomer wife it's all her fault the country has gone to hell in a handbasket.

            Then I found out why they call those meanies boomers.

            Much better to use traditonal tribal wisdom like astrology to know all about people.

            In Vietnam, an astrologer told a GI he was going home in a couple weeks.  The GI tried to tell the astrologer he just got to Vietnam and had to be there for a year.  Less than two weeks later the GI was headed home with a compassionate discharge in view.

            I tell you that astrologer then had a mob of guys seeking his prophecies that will probably only be exceeded by the milling crowds at the March on Washington for Health Care Reform on the 13th.  

            I get to be history in both cases.

            BTW you just can't beat astrology for Divine Truth.  My wife and I have the signs of fire and water.  They are so right.  Hope the next half century isn't as rough as the first.  I'm too old for that.

            Best,  Terry

          •  Um. I don't think so. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mariva

            Gen Xers tend to be more conservative. We may have to wait for the millennials to save us. :)

        •  Many young people have no health insurance (21+ / 0-)

          for several reasons, one, they don't have a good enough job that offers it, two, they don't make enough money to buy health insurance, three, many are burdened with hefty student loans, and four, they are basically healthy.

          These young people today know what struggles their parents have gone through during the Bush years and they know that if there is no affordable health insurance option for them, their options for the future are limited.  How can they start a family with out health insurance?  Or pay their student loans with the ridiculous job market of today.  

          Or even be employed in this economy and jobless recovery.  

          Medicare for All, nothing less will do.

          by Do Tell on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:47:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The shift is more than that (10+ / 0-)

          The shift is twofold.

          Younger Americans having experienced life under Republican political policy and philosophy regardless of the Party of the President in Office.

          Older Americans experienced the culture wars, North, South, East and West and all are living with the results of the battle, war torn, battle tested, no longer recognizing fatigue, just soldiering on.

          That describes pretty much all Americans over the age of 50, they have their opinions, the most adamant of them these days are found on the reactionary right.

          Liberals and Progressives have turned the tide of battle and are poised for victory on so many social elements that it is a matter of time before the real changes occur.

          These people, myself included, are there with this nation's younger generations.

          Those who oppose our ideals, are not finding recruits for their cause, and they are exhibiting the signs of panic and agitation that arises when you come to terms with losing an effort.

          This panic will continue until they are unable to continue, that will be decades.

          Think about what the fact Right Wing America accepts the Palin family as "normal".
          Take a minute to contemplate their actual use of Sarah Palin's pregnant unwed daughter as a campaign prop.
          Digest that reality.
          The depths of acceptance of honest human conditions without resorting to calling Sarah Palin an unfit mother and using her as an example of what is wrong with the USA, the Right Wing exalted in her "genuineness".

          That shift, is gaining momentum, and it isn't going to change directions, it will only get better.

          One caveat, Democrats learned how to elect a President, it came from doing the basics of GOTV.

          Without fully working the 2010 Election with the energy we brought in 2008, our movement slows, or stalls, still winning, but, on hold.

          Don't let out Progressive future be put on hold because we chose not to work hard enough to win.

          Your older compatriots will be there, we need your resources and talents that you possess to create a winning 2010 team.

          "A functioning Democracy must defy economic interests of the elites on behalf of citizens" Christopher Hedges Econ 3.50&Soc. 5.79

          by wmc418 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:49:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  There is no Need to Split the Democratic Party (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sherri in TX, Tricky

          Simply allow the two-corporate owned parties to continue representing their owners. The House will go Republican in 2010 if a strong public option isn't in the final bill. Progressives will then be besieged with: "We need your money & support to regain the House. Those Repugs are so mean & just represent corporations." Translated: "Bend over & ask for another, sir!" Since the campaign finanacing laws are written to continue the existence of the corrupted two-party system, the only long term hope is a third-party. It already exists-The Green Party. It doesn't give lip service to progressive ideas, it actually is progressive. There are no Blue Dogs & Harry Reid types. For those who argue that the answer is to elect better Democrats, good luck with that. The problem isn't the (D) after their names, it's the ($) that bought them the office. My favorite senator is Bernie Sanders. He has the (I), not the (D) or (R). Bill Moyers tells us: "Money ruined democracy." He is correct. Putting money & effort in to the corrupted two-party system will not bring progressives hope, only despair. No strong public option & this progressive joins an actual progressive party-Green. For those who say good riddance, that's exactly what I'm saying to a party that's corrupted beyond redemption.

          •  Money didn't ruin democracy (5+ / 0-)

            Indifference to corruption did.  Learned helplessness in the face of a government that wasn't helping us did.

            Reject the drama like Barack Obama!

            by Stephen Daugherty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:12:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's a thin distinction, though. (0+ / 0-)

              What is indifference to corruption but just another form of corruption?  And what is corruption but surrender to money?  

              And what do you mean by "learned indifference?"  

              •  The indifference (0+ / 0-)

                ... was carefully and deliberately cultivated by first indoctrinating people into the "government is the problem, not the solution" and "business always does it better" philosophy. If you have no expectation that government will work, you're not surprised or outraged when it does what you expect. Nor are people as upset as they should be that business has this influence, since, after all, "business always does it better," right? The "pox on both your houses"/"everybody does it" attitude makes good government harder to achieve because not enough people expect good government, so not enough people demand it.

          •  This is stupid. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Yoshimi, Doug in Virginia, BCO gal, mariva

            If green party candidates can't win the democratic primary they sure as hell can't win the general.

            If you abandon the democratic party, you're just abandoning it to the corporatists and making yourself irrelevent

            •  But we're already irrelevant. (4+ / 0-)

              See Also: Healthcare debate, Bush war crimes, stimulus bill insufficiency, et al.

            •  And not only that, (5+ / 0-)

              but you say "abandoning it to the corporatists" like that was a bad thing.  Hey, it's been run by nobody but corporatists for years now.  They could stand some abandonment.

            •  If you are the only one who goes... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mcartri

              If you abandon the Democratic party, you're just abandoning it to the corporatists and making yourself irrelevant, unless you are joined by large numbers of "People Powered" activists who join you, and take their dollars and efforts with them when they go.

              If all they want is our money, time, and votes, and would prefer we keep our principles and opinions to ourselves, we are indeed already irrelevant.  If enough people stop giving them money, time, and votes, they become irrelevant.  The trick is convincing people to stop the knee-jerk support for the little (D) after their name, just because it isn't an (R), and look at what the candidate stands for, and what he has done.

              I've heard lots of people say voting for a 3rd party or independent is "wasting your vote".  Voting for someone who only wants you to get him in power, and who intends to ignore you after he is there is the real wasted vote.

              •  Ross Perot, who split the conservative vote in (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                flowerfarmer, Nathan45

                1992, and Ralph Nader, who split the progressive vote in 2000, are both cases-in-point of how third parties do nothing but split votes. We all learned this the hard way. A viable third party can't exist in this country, the way the political game is structured.

                We could move to a parliamentary system, but that's problematic as well -- and would require an amendment to the Constitution (and good luck with that).

                •  That's the attitude! (0+ / 0-)

                  Vote (D)og no matter how Blue!  (D)osen't listen, (D)osen't care, (D)oesn't support us, is so much better than (R)eally dosen't listen, (R)eally dosen't  care, and (R)eally doesn't support us!  We aren't represented, but at least it's by a (D)!

                  Until people start voting for candidates instead of the little letter after their name, I'm afraid we're locked into a two corporate party system.

          •  If the Green Party were a demonstrably (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mcartri

            credible entity I would ascribe some merit to your suggestion, but so far that's not my experience.

            I do believe that there are some places where there is a respectable, credible local Green organization, but not in a sufficient number of places and certainly not nationally.

            It is not at all clear to me that it can muster the required discipline to become relevant nationally and the negative baggage/perceptions that exist makes it unlikely in my view.

            If there is to be a successful 3rd party movement it will need some stable core to build on. That could be the union movement or one or more progressive groups with sufficient numbers of members such that a reasonable sub-set signing on would constitute the required critical mass.

            Democracy is a contact sport...

            by jsmagid on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:23:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I've been saying since 06... (9+ / 0-)

          ...that the only pressure the Democrats are going to need to worry about is from the Left.  It's time to get a party with both a conscience and a spine.  If it can't be this one, what's it going to be?

          We hold these truths to be self-evident that all heterosexuals are created equal and are endowed by their Creator to certain inalienable rights; gays however...

          by ultrageek on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:12:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The shift is well underway (12+ / 0-)

          and has been for some time, IMHO it began late in Bush's first term.

          The problem is we're opposing some in our own party who would prefer we not notice the shift, not because they're conservatives per se, but because they are pushing a corporate agenda.

          Opposition to real HCR in our own party has nothing to do with fear of "conservative values" voters.  They're not a threat and the idea that Dem leaders are cowering in fear of a few crazy teabaggers is just silly. But it makes a great excuse to enact corporate-friendly, anti-consumer HCR.

          Enact good HCR with a strong public option and significant eligibility expansions of Medicaid and Medicare and the voters will love it.

          Private health insurers always manage to stay one step ahead of the sheriff - Sen. Sherrod Brown

          by Betty Pinson on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:15:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Betty, You've Nailed in Again! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mariva, rmonroe

            The Dems/Rahmbos who are afraid to support the Public Option are NOT afraid of the Tea Baggers, nor are they afraid of the Billo-Beck-Rush-Wingnuts.  (It's all a phony pretext!)  But what they ARE afraid of, as you just said, is what the Corporations will do to them!
            Indeed, one gets the feeling that the Corporate "Mafia" does many strange things in the middle of the night!

        •  Do young voters see this as 'their' issue though? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mariva

          If they aren't really engaged or feeling like this is a critical need, will they push their representatives?

        •  I am so pissed off (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          historys mysteries

          I just called the WH and left my message.. Perhaps Ted Kennedy passed the mantle to the wrong person... Maybe it should have been HRC. If Obama does not give us a strong public option and he sells us out with the trigger, I am done and I know millions will feel the same. I am also going to call the DNC and let them know if there is no Strong public option then I am done with the Dem. Party and will be a total Independent.
          I suggest others call and vent their feelings.. The news today has pissed me off royal ... Did we help Elect a weak corporate America President? Does he have no balls to get at least the public option? There will be NO and let me repeat NO forgiveness for anything less than a public option.

          He has already pussyfooted around with DADT, Gittmo, Iraq, etc. I am pissed and I am not going to take it anymore.......................

        •  Hrm. (0+ / 0-)

          Well, since most of those grey haired loons at the Town Halls last month screaming about the government taking over their Medicaid were, when they were 18-34, hanging out at Haight-Ashbury, smoking grass, living in communes, and tripping on acid to the sounds of Pink Floyd's Ummagumma album... I doubt there's any real seismic shift going on.

          The young are more liberal, the old more conservative.  That's the way of things, isn't it?

          :: Hopeful even still ::

          by Rick Aucoin on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:29:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  me too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sherri in TX

         Thats why Id like to see how MSNBC does with black Americans.Im guessing that the 3 shows mentioned have lost most of their black viewers.Black people who supported Democrats religously,and have waited for years for President Obama arent going to listen to other less loyal Democrats who attack him regularly.They know he cant forcefully address black issues without the blowback of whites.We saw that when he defended Gates.They know he cant strut around yelling at Republicans like Bush did Democrats,because they wont refer to him as a cowboy.Chris M's Kennedy brothers special had a clip of John Lewis saying how they knew they had to stay with Kennedy when he didnt want to scare off southern Democrats by passing the cival rghts bill as quickly as they and he wanted .Contrast that with Rachel Maddow actually throwing out Rev Wright for the purpose of direct attack on the President elect,after he picked Rick Warren for the invocation.Then she continues to rage on and on about Obama for days over this one non issue.Then she gets praised by white liberals for being a real journalist,even  though her anger was personal.Obama doesnt have that luxery because he's still black in America.

        •  The way I see it is that progressive voices, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Doug in Virginia, cybrestrike

          including black voices (like, say, Melissa Harris-Lacewell or Eugene Robinson), aren't afraid to criticize "one of our own" when s/he's in power -- which is one thing (among many) that differentiates us from those on the right.

        •  "this one non-issue" (0+ / 0-)

          Thank you.  But my civil rights most certainly ARE an issue.

          •  black in america, gay in america.... (0+ / 0-)

            you see, until ALL progressives band together to support each other and fight for what we all know is right, then none of us are going to win.

            you're comments make it sound like because "white liberals" DARE to criticize Obama they are being disloyal to him.

            no.

            you see, many of us "white liberals" had 500+ people in and out of our homes during the 2008 election--people of all colors, nationalities, ages, creeds.....because we were all united in wanting to change our country and elect Barack Obama.

            no, you see, some of us, and even some of us who are "white liberals" and maybe even "non-issue" gays, have EARNED the right to speak up when we know that the change we worked so hard to create is not necessarily guaranteed.

            I will put with nothing less than what I, you, and all of us deserve.

            please don't mischaracterize functioning American democracy (which is going to include people criticizing and lobbying their own (obama)) as unfair attacks on barack obama because he is black.  that is just insulting to those of us who worked hard to put him where he is and who are now LEGITIMATELY disappointed with what is happening.

            that said, I am a patient person and know that he is going to do the right thing(s).  that doesn't mean i can afford to stop pushing for my civil rights and my place at the table.  i deserve every bit of that.

    •  stick it to its progressive base (11+ / 0-)

      Somehow I don't think that this is all about us

      Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

      by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:27:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You want a third party? (18+ / 0-)

      better start building as it will not be a viable party in your lifetime.

      May be easier to just elect Dems who are more in tune with your philosophy

      Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

      by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:32:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't you have a pep squad rally to be at? n/t (17+ / 0-)

        -----
        We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

        by Corporate Dog on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:38:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is no sense wasting time fantasizing (15+ / 0-)

          about a 3rd party. It is more productive to go to rallys.

          I did go to a MoveOn public option rally last month.  There's a candleight rally tomorrow night.  Going be a big one as so far over 600 people have signed up for it. I'm searching for a ride as I can't drive at night

          Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

          by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:42:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Republican Party (11+ / 0-)

            was a reality well within Lincoln's lifetime.

            In case you haven't noticed, the political and economic status quo isn't exactly holding up like it used to.

            Don't dare us. DFA, for example, could have a national party up and running in a matter of months.

            Then the voters will have a party of racist crazies, a party of professional bullshit artists and a party with actual ideas on how to save the country. Tough choice, there.

            They tortured people
            To get false confessions
            To fraudulently justify
            Invasion of Iraq!
            -Seneca Doane

            by James Kresnik on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:50:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  who's daring you? (10+ / 0-)

              You want to start a 3rd party - I want to do what I can for HealthCare reform.

              Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

              by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:55:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And progressives will be able to better pressure (25+ / 0-)

                ...Dems to do the right thing if we have a plausible exit strategy from their party.

                Otherwise, we're pretty much a captive base in their eyes.

                Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

                by GreenSooner on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:56:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That is exactly so! (4+ / 0-)

                  The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

                  by Bobjack23 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:03:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  No. Understand this: (4+ / 0-)

                  They are going to wave goodbye, and satisfy the people who DO vote for them.

                  That, in fact, is what they have done for the past generation.  They are working to please those who are part of their constituency.  If we dominate a greater proportion of that, we have a greater say.  if we're taking ourselves out of the equation, they'll factor us out in their own calculations.

                  Reject the drama like Barack Obama!

                  by Stephen Daugherty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:17:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Amen. Put the shoe on the other foot for a (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    casamurphy, liberte

                    moment to really get the picture:

                    How happy would we be if Palin took the fundie crazies off into a far-right third party of her own?

                    That joy is what Republicans would feel if a Progressive third party took off like a rocket.  All of a sudden they're a 40-30-30 governing plurality.

                    •  The truth is, that plurality is close enough (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      casamurphy

                      that it could break for any of the three parties -- including a progressive party.  Poster Kresnik called it: our opponents would be one party of racist crazies and one of professional bullshit artists.  Both sound like fringy niche parties to me.  Given especially that the bullshit artists have been more and more naked and aggressive in pursuit of their corporate goals, how broadly appealing can either of them be in the long run?  

                      It's crazy to think that any party can last forever with public support as thin as this.  Assuming democracy is not completely destroyed already, over the long haul the one that wins is always going to be the one with the ideas most people like -- and that fucks them over least.

                  •  Your message is mixed. (0+ / 0-)

                    They are going to wave goodbye, and satisfy the people who DO vote for them.

                    That, in fact, is what they have done for the past generation.

                    We voted them in, they're not satisfying us.

                    So either they've given up on that strategy that you claim they've held for a generation, or that's not really the strategy they've held.

                    I suspect the real strategy was 'Get voted in, do whatever they want.'

                    Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

                    by Ezekial 23 20 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 04:16:47 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sure you're doing plenty. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poxonyou, BYw, cybrestrike, Campfire30

                The real question of the moment is what is the Democratic Party doing for health care reform?

                They tortured people
                To get false confessions
                To fraudulently justify
                Invasion of Iraq!
                -Seneca Doane

                by James Kresnik on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:00:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I can only control what I do (3+ / 0-)

                  not what others do.  I don't hate the Dems.  I don't love them either but that's another story.

                  I'm working for a public option.  I think that the way to do that is to get the public on our side.  They've seen plenty of teabaggers.  We are out there showing them sane people who support the health care reform.

                  Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

                  by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:07:46 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Unfortunately sane doesn't register on the meter (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Kitty, casamurphy, Onomastic, Campfire30

                    It's only the squeaky wheel...Progressives have to stop arguing with each other and splintering off into small groups. Pick one organization and all get behind it until it reaches critical mass.

                    •  Splintering is a big problem, (0+ / 0-)

                      being surfed and turfed by the leaders of your group is a big of a problem.

                      Given progressive numbers and the leadership's obstinate to continue fleecing the population, the only real choice is to deliver an actionable threat - preferably one that will build a viable coalition with a growing number of fleeced frustrated voters.

                      They tortured people
                      To get false confessions
                      To fraudulently justify
                      Invasion of Iraq!
                      -Seneca Doane

                      by James Kresnik on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 01:32:10 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  You misunderstand the problem (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Russgirl, seeta08, Onomastic

                    It's not that there isn't enough of us, enough public support, not enough protests, not enough phone calls, emails, enough attendance at town hall meetings.
                    It's that you're fighting against a much more powerful force that cannot be beat within this party.

                    Money wins more elections to them than pleasing progressives or doing what's right when it will hurt their support from large donors. How can that be? Well, it's a 2 party system with the other party being absolutely nuts. They know progressives have no where to run in the long term, even if they lose some for one election cycle.

                    "All [US govt model based countries], without exception, have succumbed to the nightmare [of breakdown] one time or another, often repeatedly." - Bruce Ackerman

                    by PoxOnYou on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:52:18 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  something to think about (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Onomastic

                      Healthcare reform will not come in the form we want until Americans are given a clear image of the deal.

                      Medicare for all who make the choice, is an understandable concept.

                      Arguing against Medicare will also be very difficult for aged right wingers to say to their own struggling families that Medicare is bad, or that they don't deserve it.

                      Americans understand the concept of discrimination and the current Medicare system is predicated upon "Age Discrimination".

                       

                      "A functioning Democracy must defy economic interests of the elites on behalf of citizens" Christopher Hedges Econ 3.50&Soc. 5.79

                      by wmc418 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:13:30 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Money doesn't win elections. (4+ / 0-)

                      It just helps get votes.  Votes win election.

                      You can't buy votes by handing money to people.  You can only buy communication and the opportunity to communicate.

                      People can be lead to disregard a communication, no matter how dazzling it may be, no matter how finely crafted the message is.

                      Money, therefore, can be neutralized as an advantage, as a factor.

                      That is, if we don't give up.  If we give up, of course, the other side gets to speak without any answering rebuttal.

                      Stop beating yourself up over what you think is possible, start saying and doing whatever you can to make what you want to happen possible.

                      Reject the drama like Barack Obama!

                      by Stephen Daugherty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:22:16 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Money only marginally important... (0+ / 0-)

                      The "big" money rarely goes all in on an iffy deal.  They always want to buy influence with a perceived winner.  Large amounts of small contributions from progressives timed effectively can overcome the big money, since the amount of money in real terms is relatively small.

                      Republican't Leadership is a dangerous combination of cut-backs and incompetence.

                      by casamurphy on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:50:14 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  That all being said, (14+ / 0-)

              I would rather the Democratic leadership finally show some leadership, not to mention some ethics.

              You have Senator Max Buck$, Spreadsheet Murderer, telling us that we can't have real reform while sucking in money from special interests like a commercial vacuum.

              The President should be sending Rahm Emanuel to knock on Buck$ door with a copy of the Riot Act, not sicking Rahm on us for backing something that Americans actually want. And where the hell is Senator Reid today?

              You see. It's that kind of sick, stupid crap that kills old parties and fuels new ones. The stunt the Democratic leadership is trying to pull on the rank and file is just plain stupid.

              They tortured people
              To get false confessions
              To fraudulently justify
              Invasion of Iraq!
              -Seneca Doane

              by James Kresnik on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:58:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I don't have a settled opinion (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mattman, liberte, James Kresnik, Onomastic

              on whether progressive Democrats should split from the Democratic party and become the Progressive Party. But here's one thought.

              It does occur to me that if we had 3 parties, with the Corporate Dems in the middle, it seems that a lot of Americans who don't really pay attention would be even more compelled to think that the Corporate Dems are the "reasonable," "moderate" ones.

              I kind of think it seems like a better idea for Progressives to keep calling themselves Democrats but continue to act more and more like Progressives.

              A Corporate Democratic party would be completely useless, which would be fine if it would just shrivel up and die like the Repubs are working on, but if it gained strength by casting itself as "moderate," the whole 3-party thing would backfire.

              Thoughts?

              "That's the anthem, get yer damn hands up."

              by Campfire30 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:59:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Those who split their votes lose... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TimmyB, Onomastic, Campfire30

                ...in a simple majority vote democracy.  And that's even if they have an overwhelming majority.

                Do we really want to do that?

                Like the diarist said the other day.  It's easier just to fight for this one.

                Reject the drama like Barack Obama!

                by Stephen Daugherty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:23:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If by "simple majority vote democracy" (0+ / 0-)

                  you mean a system where, out of three parties, victory goes to the one who gets the most votes, it simply doesn't follow that to split a large majority is an automatic loss.  If the Repubs have 30% of the vote, they're going to lose to someone no matter what.  If the Dems then split their 70% majority 40-30, then the election goes to whichever faction got the 40%.  And I don't see why that couldn't be the progressives.  Maybe not in 2012 or even 2016, but in the long run.  

                  •  See I'm thinking if the "Democrats" (0+ / 0-)

                    and the "Progressives" are splitting the votes, the "Democrats" would win b/c voters who don't pay attention would see them as being in the middle, being "moderate," being "reasonable."

                    "That's the anthem, get yer damn hands up."

                    by Campfire30 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:34:56 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  way too optimistic... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Campfire30

                    the democratic party's progressive wing is NOT a majority of the current party, hate to break it to ya....

                    a third progressive party would be BURIED in election after election.....

                    the Democratic Party is not perfect, but she is the best vehicle we have to achieving progressive change.

            •  If there is to be a viable third party, it's (0+ / 0-)

              probably going to be a socially liberal, economically conservative one (a la Libertarian Party). That philosophy is extremely popular these days.

              It won't help our cause (HCR) at all.

              •  They don't stick together very well. (0+ / 0-)

                The socially liberal, economic conservatives have had two chances at a well-defined major movement - Ron Paul and the Libertarian Party - and both have clearly failed.

                Their message tends to fall flat when they get to economics. Their economic position tends to deflate on explanation.

                Worse yet, as a group, are are all over the place on military commitments and direct support for large corporations. They fly apart far too easily to maintain viability.

                Maybe the economic situation and a 'socialist' president will get them to finally glue together. Who knows and who cares? ;)

                They will either have to moderate, co-opt the Republican party or tone down the economic conservatism and ally with other civil-libertarian groups.

                They tortured people
                To get false confessions
                To fraudulently justify
                Invasion of Iraq!
                -Seneca Doane

                by James Kresnik on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 01:27:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  In your opinion (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Onomastic

            In my opinion, get on board for real change or get out of the way with that pessimistic nay saying.

            The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

            by Bobjack23 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:03:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  While I agree that forming a new party (5+ / 0-)

            such as a Labor Party would be a wasted effort practically. It would be useful to create a name within the Democratic Party in order to define a political segment that could be easily identified with.  A Labor Democrat could be viewed as being substantially different from a Corporate Democrat.  

            Now that the Republicans have branded themselves as the Capital Above all Else Party, by creating a segment within the legal framework of the Democratic Party we could set up the conversation between the extremes of Labor and Capital; which has been the real political tension in the United States since . . . . well . . . forever.

            •  We already have a well defined name within (9+ / 0-)

              the Democratic Party, Progressive Democrats of America is celebrating its 5th Birthday. PDA has been an advocate for single payer for years with the Healthcare not Warfare campaign. Check it out.

            •  We kind of have that now (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JimWilson, poxonyou, Onomastic

              as the progressive wing of the democratic party.

              What we're going to need to address is that at the present time we don't have anywhere near the kind of clout we'd like to have.  There are more Centrists, Blue Dogs, and independents in this mix than there are of us.  To have power in congress we have to be able to appeal to a broad demographic.  Right now we don't, out constituency is fairly narrow --even a purely liberal constituency couldn't win a national election four years ago.

              To me it seems we'd better served by trying to broaden our appeal than we'd be by isolating ourselves ideologically.  That worked for the repugs, but they represent the invisible hand of money and own the MSM.  We can't do it that way.  We need to be more populist and more engaging with people outside of our comfort zone.

              •  That simply isn't true (7+ / 0-)

                The Congressional Progressive Caucus is "the largest non-party caucus" in the current Congress.  

                Nor is our constituency "fairly narrow" — we won the broadest electoral victory in 24 years with huge numbers of independents and new voters.  Indeed, the progressive viewpoint is now the national mainstream.  The problem is that elected Democrats aren't leveraging that political strength to squeeze better legislation out of the process.

                •  We very obviously don't have the critical mass (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JimWilson

                  required to get this.

                  We won our broad electoral victory with blue dogs, centrists, and independents (i.e. swing voters).  We don't have the muscle to push Landrieus, Conrads, Lincolns, and Bayhs around.  In their constituencies we have very little to offer them as carrots, so our sticks don't scare them a bit.

                  •  I think it is simple disconnect (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Doug in Virginia, rlochow

                    It's the old story where the Beltway insiders are completely oblivious to what's going on in the country;  the slower ones are going to need some education over the next cycle or two, which may come in the form of primary challenges.  I would note that you didn't include Baucus in your list — his constituents seem to have been giving him an earful.

                    I don't for one minute believe the PO is done.  We still don't have a Senate bill yet, Baucus is going to have to start over or fold, while whatever bill he may be able to come up with has to get melded with the Kennedy HELP bill.  And that doesn't even include the bargaining that will have to come in conference.

                    It is far too early to say this can't be done.

                    •  Their constituents have been needing our (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RinaX

                      outreach and persuasion over the last several months.  Instead of doing that we've been armtwisting people who are already on our side.

                      I haven't given up.  What I'm saying is that we need to win over those who represent red areas.  There aren't enough "safe" progressives to ram anything through congress at this point.

                    •  BINGO! (0+ / 0-)

                      PRIMARY CHALLENGES to form a more progressive party!  move the center in our direction.

                      THAT is change.

                  •  It all depends on whether we can capture... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...significant proportions of their constituency, influence their base voters.  If we can do that, we gain leverage.

                    Reject the drama like Barack Obama!

                    by Stephen Daugherty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:25:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Our secret weapon, though, (0+ / 0-)

                    is that our ideas are supported by way broader swaths of their constituencies than they think.  They think of us as the left-wing fringe of the left-wing fringe, but that's only because most of them have drifted way to the right without realizing it.  We're really much more the center now.  As time passes this will become more and more apparent -- perhaps even to them.

                •  Does Bernie Sanders (0+ / 0-)

                  make the CPC a "non-party caucus"?  I'm looking for any other non-Democratic House members; can you help identify?

                •  The Progressive Caucus Will Cave on the P.O. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  pkbarbiedoll

                  Rather than pressure the Senate Dems to support the public option, the WH will pressure the House progressive caucus to support the give-away of mandated, no public option insurance for the benefit of the private insurers. The Fig Leaf Bill will of course be a disaster & the GOP will bounce right back in to power because the "Democrats can't govern." All roads lead to the City of Lobbyist Money.

                  •  Then you have your marching orders (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mattman, rlochow, mcartri

                    which are to communicate with CPC members and lean on them to vote "no" on any bill not containing a public option.  

                    •  Absolutely. And who cares if the Public Option (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rlochow, mcartri, pkbarbiedoll

                      "doesn't have the votes in the Senate." A bill without a public option SHOULDN'T pass. I don't WANT a bill without a public option to pass, I would want such a bill to fail and continue failing until Congress ponies up a good bill.

                      The goal is not to pass a bill, it's to reform our healthcare system (or at the very least, our system of paying for healthcare). A bad bill at this point is worse than no bill at all.

                      I used to fear that Rethugs would weaken healthcare reform to the point that it wouldn't have good results for people, and then Democrats would be blamed for the failure.

                      Then I realized that's a STUPID thing to worry about.

                      If Democrats allow weakened healthcare reform to pass, they deserve every scrap of blame they get. It's theirs to lose, or at least it was theirs to lose when we elected them.

                      "That's the anthem, get yer damn hands up."

                      by Campfire30 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:31:48 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh, that's right! You're an optimist, no? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Doug in Virginia

                    Tell me: do you want better than we have now?

                    If so, again, tell me: just how the hell do you think this moping about money and corporate power helps things?

                    These obstacles are nothing new in politics.  The only thing new is our unwillingness sometimes to get off our dead asses and fight.

                    Reject the drama like Barack Obama!

                    by Stephen Daugherty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:27:41 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Right! It's Our Fault! (0+ / 0-)

                      Well, I'm not suffering from "Abused Spouse Syndrome". The blame will be on the shoulders of the elected Democrats-NOT the people who voted them in on their promises.

                    •  Stephen (0+ / 0-)

                      you are absolutely positively 100% correct, even if people don't want to hear it....progressives were, frankly, caught sleeping this summer....and that allowed the conventional wisdom to form that there was a backlash out there against HCR.

                      well, the truth is that there is a growing backlash to that backlash among progressives, and if we stop typing/whining and start calling, talking, meeting with legislators, press, and neighbors, we will build the momentum to pass our meaningful change (ie PO) just like we did for our President last fall.

                •  Right. They're still trying to pretend it's (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rlochow

                  not politically feasible to pass legislation that  a majority of Americans want. It's becoming more and more clear that they answer only to money and power and not to us. We already knew that. But their veneer of excuses is wearing very thin.

                  "That's the anthem, get yer damn hands up."

                  by Campfire30 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:10:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Something the Dog said about 3rd Parties (0+ / 0-)

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Face it, we have a 2 party system and nothing short of a complete constitutional re-vamp into a parlimentarian system will change that reality.

            Given that, the first part of this diary was good.

            Republican't Leadership is a dangerous combination of cut-backs and incompetence.

            by casamurphy on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:44:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, what's up with that? (7+ / 0-)

          Apparently she didn't get the memo. This isn't a damn hopefest! Its a hand-wringing, Obama-sold-me-out pity party.

        •  What?! (0+ / 0-)

          Max Ehrmann (author of Desiderata): Whatever else you do or forbear, impose upon yourself the task of happiness; and now and then abandon yourself to laughter.

          by JoanMar on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:35:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I could have sworn (5+ / 0-)

        that's what we were supposed to be doing when we voted for Obama.

        What we should be doing is working both within and outside the system to force the two-party duopoly to open up our political system and allow real competition - even if that means a massive civil disobedience campaign directed towards bringing business as usual in this country to a screeching halt, until we get ballot access reform, electoral reform and publicly financed campaigns.  Only when the two parties have real competition will we begin to have political parties that actually represent the will and interests of the people.

        -7.12, -7.54 / "Health care reform will never take place until Rahm Emanuel is strangled with the entrails of Frank Luntz." - Diderot

        by Big Tex on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:46:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's only your opinion and not supportable... (7+ / 0-)

        ...IMO, it can be done; even between cycles if enough the people want it and are ready for it and I think enough are about ready.

        We already tried electing more Democrats and given them a more than sufficient majority that they are squandering because they are part of a duopoly controlled by our corporate and K-Street fronted Oligarchy.

        No more phony democracy with dog and pony show elections that make no difference in policy in DC. Time for a new broom and a new corporate/establishment free party. I'm sick of this Madison Avenued excuse of a democracy and a steady decent into a banana republic status offered us by Globalism. Our democracy is right now just as real and representative of the vast majority of our citizenry as is Iraq's newly engineered "democracy;" the only difference is most Iraqis know they are being manipulated and are trying to bomb their phony "democracy" out of existence.

        The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

        by Bobjack23 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:58:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I just want a Second party. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poxonyou, wmholt

        I'm tired of this Republicrate/Democon nonsense.  

        •  Y'know? We've moved the D party (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          liberte, MaikeH

          quite a bit in the last five years.  It was only 8 years ago that Lieberman was our VP candidate (the horror, the horror).

          If we wanty to move it further we'll need to organize and persuade in places where only bluedoggies can win now.  We won't accomplish that just by demonizing them.  We need to create/generate broader support for our goals across a wider spectrum of americans.

          •  Moved it? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cybrestrike, ruscle

            Have you noticed Obama's picks? Rahm Emanuel is the CoS and openly hostile to progressives. Many Bush appointees still on board. Old Clinton people, and Clinton. The power of the party hasn't moved anywhere.

            "All [US govt model based countries], without exception, have succumbed to the nightmare [of breakdown] one time or another, often repeatedly." - Bruce Ackerman

            by PoxOnYou on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:01:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It has moved into the WH (0+ / 0-)

              after 8 years of watching Cheney.  We're about 7 months into this, y'know?

              •  Cheney is part of the Republican Party (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cybrestrike, ruscle

                Of course they haven't moved left. They've moved into crazy land.

                "All [US govt model based countries], without exception, have succumbed to the nightmare [of breakdown] one time or another, often repeatedly." - Bruce Ackerman

                by PoxOnYou on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:12:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  also Obama backed Lieberman (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ruscle

              during his campaign, against Ned Lamont. He backed Lieberman after his election to keep chairmanship on the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. Obama is not progressive, wasn't in power long enough to prove he was a fighter for such things, didn't really run as one, just said the right thing on the right topics and promised big change. Warning signs arose early on, like backing away from public financing, and instead opting for major money from corporations. I think we naively looked at it as a grassroots move, ignoring the other side of the picture.

              "All [US govt model based countries], without exception, have succumbed to the nightmare [of breakdown] one time or another, often repeatedly." - Bruce Ackerman

              by PoxOnYou on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:11:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  He never said he was a progressive (0+ / 0-)

                He's always very clear about his disdain for ideological labels.  He's a consensus builder and very inclusive.  That's why he won.

                Even so, this is our best opportunity to effect positive change in this country in 40 years.  We can work with it or we can feel sorry for ourselves.

            •  Don't forget the Monsanto shill (0+ / 0-)

              Sunshine on my shoulders...

              by pkbarbiedoll on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:59:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Let the Righties form the third (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        liberte

        That could happen far more easily.

        It would render both the NEW-CON Party and the Republican Party weak sisters to the Democrats.

        What we see today is the Republican Party in decline and it's Corporate power brokers watching the infighting.

        Recent Palin, Bachmann, Huckabee, Texas Seperatists, and the like appear to be joining financial forces. These reactionary forces have a huge Populist element and are less likely to direction from Corpratists.

        If they manage to rip the Republicans into the money will hunt another source for votes and then we will see the Blue Dogs peeled apart from Liberals and Progressives.

        With the Liberals and Progressives remaining as Democrats, not simply it's base, the Party is poised to dominate large State Elections and make inroads everwhere.

        "A functioning Democracy must defy economic interests of the elites on behalf of citizens" Christopher Hedges Econ 3.50&Soc. 5.79

        by wmc418 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:06:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's easier, all right. (0+ / 0-)

        But it seems so often to be bitterly disappointing.

      •  Thought Obama was in tune with (0+ / 0-)

        our philosophy.. Remember all he said during the campaign? What about Al Frankin.. He is now on the fence... How do you know who is progressive and who is not, who can be bought and who can not?

    •  Wow! This is Great! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ek hornbeck, Rogneid

      It is all about the money, ya' know (semi - snark).

      Dems, get some guts, or we'll KICK YER BUTTS!

      by CityLightsLover on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:38:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  To Liberal? (0+ / 0-)

      It is to laugh...ha! ha!

      The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

      by Bobjack23 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:40:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "all the cooks were supposedly (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rogneid

      coming out of the woods"? I hope so. I'm hungry!

      Sarah Palin knows the only reason the left is fighting global warming is because we need the ice floes to put all them senior citizens on.

      by kitebro on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:42:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Time to herd this wavering cat! (7+ / 0-)

      This morning on NPR, Illinois Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky was quoted as saying that, while she'll insist on a public option on the House bill, she'd vote for a final bill out of conference without it.

      This is obviously not enough.

      We are looking for a public option, not symbolic support for a public option.  We need to get progressive DC Dems to break their bad, old habits of moral victories and symbolic votes and win one for once. A majority of the American public still supports a public option.

      And the only way we get a public option coming out of conference committee is if House conferees can honestly say that nothing else will pass their body. And to get there we need supporters of the public option in the House to clearly indicate that they will not vote for a conference bill without it.

      Call Jan Schakowsky's office at (202) 225-2111 and insist that she rejoins the majority of Americans who want a public option and ask her to walk back her statement on NPR that she'd vote for a bill without one!

      Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

      by GreenSooner on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:58:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your facts are wrong (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ilikepie

      MSNBC does not beat FOX in any demo during the weekday.  

      I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and in all places...arousing and persuading and reproaching you.-Socrates

      by The Navigator on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:07:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thats to bad, people would be more educated (0+ / 0-)

        if they did.

      •  They beat cnn (0+ / 0-)

        nobody beats the nuts over at Fox

        Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

        by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:16:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  He specified during primetime! nt (0+ / 0-)
      •  You're right - MSNBC beats Fox in weekend prime (0+ / 0-)

        You're right, that was only for weekend prime time. The last paragraph of the article states: "MSNBC beat CNN in weekend sales prime (7 p.m.-2 a.m.) by 32 percent among A25-54 (241,000 vs. 182,000). MSNBC was also the #1 cable news net in this time period among A18-34."

        Californians: The Courage Campaign is working for changing the 2/3 budget rule and for ending Prop 8. Go!

        by tmo on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:33:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Households.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LuckyLu

        MSNBC does not reach as many households because cable and dish operators put them in the higher cost packages. As long as they reach only a fraction of the households, they will never beat Fox.

        I would be interested in seeing the percentage of households tuned in that actually get MSNBC compared to the percentage who get Fox that are tuned into it.

        Signature Impaired.

        by gttim on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:59:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Speaking of ratings ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JW in Dallas

        Let me strongly recommend that any kossack who is approached by Nielsen to be a "Nielsen family" should ACCEPT THE OFFER. I know, there is a tendency to turn one's nose up at such a crass commercial concept. Their come-on may even come across as a little tacky. BUT AS THIS DIARY DEMONSTRATES, THE RATINGS ARE A HUGELY IMPORTANT POLITICAL TOOL.

        And as it turns out, these kinds of first impressions (or more accurately assumptions) about Nielsen are not correct.

        Nielsen approached me several months ago, and said I'd been chosen. I thought, "why not?" and said yes. I have been more than a little surprised. They are a class act. They are well organized, responsive, keep appointments to the minute, and extremely respectful. There are no logs to fill out. They simply attach a box to your televisions, and the reporting is done electronically and automatically. And they will deal with any technical problems that involve your television system -- for free.

        So, now, every time I tune in to Ed, Keith, Rachel, John Stewart and Colbert, I think "Yes, this is being counted!"

        Maybe it would be nice to live in a world where none of this mattered. But that ideal world is never going to exist.

        So, if Nielsen comes calling, say "Yes!". It really does matter, and if only the wingnuts sign up, that's one more way we lose.

        "But there is so much more to do." - Barack Obama, Nov. 4, 2008

        by flitedocnm on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:54:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  more than 55% support public option (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      liberte, Campfire30, DruidQueen

      you might note that this CNN poll is one of the misleadingly worded ones that is easily misconstrued as whether they favor a "government takeover" of healthcare, since it uses words like administer and compete with private insurers, instead of the "give people a choice" wording that the original polls used.

      when the correct "give people a choice" wording is used to represent the public option, polls continue to show the same 75% plus support level as they did in the spring.

      but even when CNN twists to wording to imply that it's going to be a government takeover, we still have a majority of americans in favor of it.

      l'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers

      by zeke L on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:22:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the WH knows (4+ / 0-)

      Is the White House paying attention to this?

      Yes. They're safely betting progressives will fall in line at election time because they have no where else to run. They may not help campaign, and some may not vote at all this time, but they're safely betting they'll come back around even if it's after Republicans gain some power back. They see money as more important to the success of the party, more than passing progressive reforms, which they have no intention of doing if they will anger corporate donors.

      Obama's polls are sagging because he is too corporate and not liberal enough and thus he is losing the support of his base.

      Exactly what's happening. The WH knows this. They aren't being misled by the MSM. They largely don't care they're losing progressive support, but will pretend to be fighting for progressives without actual reforms coming (see above).

      If health care reform fails to deliver the three important aspects of affordability, accessibility, and cost control, they better start thinking about splitting the party and create a new truly progressive party to the left of the now corporate owned Democratic party.

      The timing couldn't be more propitious as the Republicans are in shambles and they could be relegated to the far right for good.

      I certainly hope this happens and was thinking the exact same myself a few months ago. The Republican Party can be made to look as ridiculous as it is if a truly progressive party arose, with powerful support, to show Americans the true nature of the 2 parties in power now. There are plenty of powerless 3rd parties here, so if a new party was formed, it'd need to be done in a significant way involving some major players.

      "All [US govt model based countries], without exception, have succumbed to the nightmare [of breakdown] one time or another, often repeatedly." - Bruce Ackerman

      by PoxOnYou on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:42:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Splendid analysis n/t (0+ / 0-)
    •  Tip Jock (1,000+ / 0-) (0+ / 0-)

      That's exactly what I've been ferreting out of the polls - anecdotal evidence and proof positive - where are the results for 'shares my views' and 'trusted leader' ???

      Right in the President's palm. All he has to do is show some spunk, tell the truth, and hang some chud right around Grassley's neck.

      Republicans are trying to kill grandma!

      First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. -Mohandas K. Gandhi

      by ezdidit on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:07:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I knew it was not as it would seem in... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WereBear

      in medialand. It never is...

      I made the following comment the other day in a diary in response to someone who had ascribed to the "ratings" crap the GOP is consistently spewin' lately.

      That's incorrect... (4+ / 0-) Recommended by:
         Creosote, LostInTexas, forester, blueoasis

      Reruns on HGTV get better ratings than MSNBC.

      Countdown @ 8pm has enjoyed the rank of top cable news program in the country - for the age demographic 18-34, the most sought range for cable advertisers - for at least the last year or so.

      And, I don't know about recently but the last time I heard, Rachel Maddow was also consistently at or near the top of her 9pm time slot in the 18-34 age range.

      Fixed News has been consistently bleeding younger viewers for a long while now, and CNN rarely hits the top spot (8pm & 9pm) in the younger demographic at all.

      "If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem." -- Abraham Lincoln

      by markthshark on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:11:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Quick question or clarification (0+ / 0-)

      Further more, we learn that "The Rachel Maddow Show" is "the fastest growing cable news show at 9 p.m, up a huge 92 percent in total viewers versus August 2008."

      Rachel's show didn't exist in August of 2008. Is it up 92% for the time slot? So she has almost twice as many viwers as Dan Abrahms did.
      That's not surprising, but nice to know.
      Tip'd and rec'd

      "Paranoia is knowing all the facts." - William S. Burroughs.

      by lh114 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:19:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  18 to 34 is not... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yoshimi, RinaX

      ...a key demographic for news programming.  The fact that MSNBC wins with that demographic is essentially irrelevant, since that age group makes up such a small portion of the news audience.

      The key demographic for cable news is 25 to 54, so it is certainly relevant that MSNBC is beating CNN in that group.

      Yeah, it's a minor point...but a relevant one.  Proclaiming a victory in 18 to 34 for MSNBC would be a big deal only if their primary competition was MTV.

      Political Compass: -6.75, -3.08

      by TexasTom on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:37:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What they should be doing is paying attention (0+ / 0-)

      to Dancing With the Stars because its rating are much higher than any show on MSNBC.

      How is that for a demographic?  Fans of B and C grade actors dancing the foxtrot. :)

    •  Well said!!!! (0+ / 0-)

      Yes, a change is certainly needed, not merely a change of party but a change of system -Eugene V. Debs

      by nativist on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:11:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Put those nefarious Independents in charge, in (0+ / 0-)

      the middle?

      Oh noez.

      The end must be nigh.

      /snark

      Actually, this is my dream re-alignment of American Politics.

      A more-or-less stable Center Party full of moderately-oriented social conservatives.

      The progressives become the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party - with younger demographics and a twenty year lull in numbers as the Boomers age into oblivion, then likely a stready rise as those Gen Z'rs and their cohorts enter the political landscape over the next 40 to 50 years.

      The conservatives become neutralized by their sharply decreased membership and the inevitable shift to the far right, under pressure from hyper-conservatives and the vocal religious right, but retain their ability to retain some power by dint of their ever present willingness to be loud, rude and never accept that it's time for them to STFU.  Much in the fashion today's should-be-cowed minor minority (well, what the heck is the opposite of SuperMajority?) seem to have retained their ability to garner attention - even if it's just to say, once again, "No".

      I know exactly which camp I'll fall into, and it sure as hell ain't middle-of-the-road territory!

  •  Good news! Many thanks. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Midwesterners, pioneer111, Ed G

    Stonewall was a RIOT!

    by ExStr8 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:13:41 AM PDT

  •  How Does MSNBC Do Before Primetime? (11+ / 0-)

    Seems to me that it's quite wingnutty before 6, well manic is more accurate for the 5-6 hour. I can barely last 2 minutes with any of them earlier in the day.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:14:06 AM PDT

  •  I guess this is enouraging, (11+ / 0-)

    but MSNBC and CNN are both having their ass handed to them by FOX in the over-alls.  How many "young people watch cable news, any way?  Isn't it kind of like owning the tallest building in Lubbock?

    Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

    by bugscuffle on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:22:22 AM PDT

  •  If Obama comes out (34+ / 0-)

    forcefully for a public option, does he realize that the netroots will go wild with support once again, willing to fight and use that elbow grease that helped him win election?

    •  Yes, he does. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Amayi

      Bible Death Scorecard: God 2,390,000 Satan: 10

      by A Runner on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:39:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  probably not (22+ / 0-)

      It's still the conventional "wisdom" that Democrats win by abandoning their base and republicans always win anyway so why even try? Obabma is playing true to this philosophy.

      Rahm is telling the liberals to, "Shut up and go away!" while Obama STILL wants to osculate the anal canals of the republicans in some Quixotic attempt to get the people who really, really want to see him defeated (if not dead as well) to love him, really love him!

      It's what Democrats have done for 15 years since the republicans gained a tiny majority in the congress and it was declared that they were destined to run the world forever. It's always 1994 in Washingtonland and anyone who says differently is shrill and eeeeeevil. Even when the Democrats hold a supermajority, they're still the timorous, craven minority party in their hearts.

      The more we try to influence the issue, the more Rahm and the rest of the White House staff are determined to stick it to us. This will prove they are "tough." Fighting and sticking it to the republicans will never enter their minds. That would be un-possible because the republicans are too cool and tough.

      Dear diary,
      Sigh, the republicans are sooo dreamy! Maybe they might like us if we follow them around like wounded puppies and hang on their every word and prove we really, really hate the people who voted us into office. How could that POSSIBLY fail! It's always worked before! I'm going to sleep and dreaming of being loved by wingnuts! Sigh! Love, Rahm.

      •  Rec'd for "osculate the anal canals" n/t (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hester, Midwesterners, BYw, cybrestrike

        -7.12, -7.54 / "Health care reform will never take place until Rahm Emanuel is strangled with the entrails of Frank Luntz." - Diderot

        by Big Tex on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:50:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The big problem folks isn't Obama (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WereBear

        It's the Senate.

        Obama is for the public option.

        In the Senate we don't even have 51 votes to get the thing passed. As it stands now, even using reconciliation the count is a soft 47.

        My hunch is that the now infamous trigger will be used to set the public option in motion. If that's what it takes, to get the votes, then let's do it.

        •  whatever it takes! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wmholt

          crap bills rock!

          You do realize a public option with a trigger = no public option, right?  It'll just be a scam to enrich the insurance companies in the interim? Kinda like the credit card "reform" bill did with it's "trigger" of not coming into effect until next year.

          Trigger = Obama sellout.

          Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
          P.S. I am not a crackpot.
          -Abe Simpson

          by fromer on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:16:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How adult. With more like you in 1776 (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FightTheFuture

          we could just relax and let the king decide.

          •  And with more people like you in 1787, the US (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            a night owl

            would never have been formed, since the compromises needed to create and ratify the Constitution would have been rejected out of stubbornness and/or spite.

            What's wrong with the trigger anyway?  It has the potential to provide (the threat of) competition to keep the insurance companies in line (which is the goal right?*), without the government even having to implement anything.

            The nice thing about the public option trigger is that it provides a concrete threat of government competition and that threat puts the insurance companies on the spot.  They are given a chance to get their acts together.  If they do, then the government doesn't even have to do anything since the trigger won't be pulled.  If they don't, then the whole nation will see that, including the MSM, independents, blue dogs, moderate repubs, and then the trigger will be pulled with overwhelming support for the resulting public option.

            * Or is your real goal, not keeping insurance companies in line, but government take over of health care?  You and most here have the goal of government taking over all health care, ala single payer.  So maybe you insist on public option as the closest thing to that, and therefore knee-jerk reject any alternative means that would keep the insurance companies in line, because those alternatives don't implement any government take over.  If that's the case, then you guys have the goals mixed up.  The goal is to provide competition to insurance companies, not destroying them for the sake of ideology.  

            •  This is 1787, it 2009. get with the reality (0+ / 0-)

              already and hang up your suckass analogy, it is not the same.  what is the same is perhaps another revolution is needed.  Then you would be on target.

              We're powned by our corporate masters has it has been made so incredibility apparent over the last few months to all but the dimmest.  From Obama "their man" to Rahm "I suck" on down.  

              We have slid into Fascism and appeasing this will not solve it with illusions of forward progress that is simply pushing us deeper into this morass of corporate rapedom.  Standing against the Fascism, even if you loose, is what is needed to start waking up people to just how fucked they are, or will be, before they die of shitty health care access when they need it the most working 3 jobs to just survive, forget about living.

              Maybe Obama can pull it out of the hat, we shall see.  I am unimpressed by him thus far--his past actions with the banks, DLC cabinet appointments, DOJ inaction with poison Rovian prosecutors still there, Afghanistan and Iraq, and other things do not challenge that. Being less stupid and evil than the last administration is not a measure of success.


              We the People in order to establish Justice, Defense, Welfare, Liberty do establish the US of A. That is what America is about!

              by FightTheFuture on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 01:07:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The "trigger" will be unpopular (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FightTheFuture

          with the general public.

          Once the bill is passed,the dust settles and everyone learns about it, people are going to expect to be able to enroll in the PO.  They won't be happy when they find they can't.

          Dems will have to take the blame for not making it available.  We do have enough people in Congress to get it done and voters won't understand why we couldn't make it available now.

          Private health insurers always manage to stay one step ahead of the sheriff - Sen. Sherrod Brown

          by Betty Pinson on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:23:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Delusional. (0+ / 0-)

          Obama does not seem to be for it.  Else, he could start doing that little thing called "Leadership" as president of the party that has a majority.

          As for the Senate, put a really good bill out there with a Public option or, her, Kennedy's 2007 "Medicare for all" bill and let the corporate whore CONservadems vote against it.  It will be the perfect bullseye on those fuckers faces to cleanup the party by.

          The trigger is simply useless because there will always be way to stop it.   Especially once the Dems are weakened in 2010 and Obama is history after 2012; as things stand.  


          We the People in order to establish Justice, Defense, Welfare, Liberty do establish the US of A. That is what America is about!

          by FightTheFuture on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:55:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  aren't you willing to fight now? I am (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yoshimi

      Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

      by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:17:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But money buys real loyalty (0+ / 0-)

      But money buys real loyalty.  If he passes out enough money to the corporate giants and does not anger the people they will still vote for him.  Besides he can depend on Afghanistan and escalate the war during the midterm election and when his election comes around.  People love war presidents.  It sounds cynical, but that is what I think.  I can not think of any other reason to escalate the war in Afghanistan.

    •  Hate to throw cold water on (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pkbarbiedoll, seeta08

      your hopes, but note that BO appointed Rahm. Could that because they are politically similar? It seems to me the "Chosen One" was indeed chosen, by Big Money interests.  

  •  I would rather see (13+ / 0-)

    health care reform delayed than have a suck ass bill.

    Since the current version doesn't go into effect until 2013 (interesting timing) if the bill sucks, progressive democrats should just vote against it and work on it later.

    Why couldn't insurance reform be a primary issue for both dems and republicans.

    Let the people pay their higher insurance premiums for a while and maybe they will be more willing to support real reform.

    •  Status quo (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kitty, Yoshimi, Urizen, fromer

      Let the people pay their higher insurance premiums for a while and maybe they will be more willing to support real reform.

      We've tried that for the last 15 years after Clinton failed to get health care reform. Will it take another 15? Actually, most people support the public option, so I think the last 15 years have taken their toll.

      •  The people support it (0+ / 0-)

        but the Senate doesn't.

        As I noted above, right now in the Senate we have a soft 47 votes to support the public option.

        •  but it's obvious Senators are easily bought. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tmo, concernedamerican, pkbarbiedoll

          So let's go buy 4 more.

          I've got $3.  Seems about the right amount for what Evan Bayh's soul is worth.

          There.

          We only need 3 more Senators.

          Who's gonna pony up some bribe cash?

          Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
          P.S. I am not a crackpot.
          -Abe Simpson

          by fromer on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:18:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That makes more sense than attacking them (0+ / 0-)

            I think our strategy has been flawed from the start on this.  I believe we'd have spent our time better working positively on senators and reps from redder areas.  Like or not, if we want to pass legislation we need some bluedogs to vote with us.  How do we get that?  Not by taking our ball and going home.

            Funny to me how few people look to persuasion as a viable political strategy.

            We're not the heavyweight in this (yet), so throwing our weight around and making demands and threats is basically empty noise.

            •  yes, the starry eyed naivete of the citizenry... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Urizen

              ...expecting to influence their representatives through facts and argument without the necessary sack of $20's to push under the table!

              Freaking naifs!

              Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
              P.S. I am not a crackpot.
              -Abe Simpson

              by fromer on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:53:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The money and the votes (0+ / 0-)

                We can't offer very much to Baucus or Conrad.  If none of the progressives in ND turn out nobody's gonna notice.

                •  ND an MT resident's have TEH AWSOME... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...health care?

                  Who knew?

                  I'm packing my bags...

                  Seriously though, if the administration took two fucking minutes to explain it, Single Payer is NOT a "progressive" program, it's a fiscally sane program that allows billions of dollars to flow back into business development instead of going to economically dead weight things like Ins. Co profits.

                  Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
                  P.S. I am not a crackpot.
                  -Abe Simpson

                  by fromer on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:04:16 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  but we have time to change that before (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rlochow

          reconciliation.  The house will pass a public option plan.  Who the hell know what the Senate will pass. It's important to get a bill out of the Senate - any bill.

          We will than have all that time before reconciliation to turn the tide for the Public Option.

          Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

          by Kitty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:20:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Also while what you say is true (0+ / 0-)

        the cost of insurance has risen so high so fast that it is blatantly obvious that it is killing our economy.

      •  The lobbyists can always buy Senators (0+ / 0-)

        even if it takes 20 million, instead of just 3 million.

        We need to make those corporate Democrats afraid for their job, instead of taking us for granted.

        Otherwise, they see no downside in doing what the lobbyists want.

    •  Never been a good reason (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yoshimi

      for delaying implementation until 2013. 2013 was another give-away to the folks who never intended to see consumer-centered HCR pass. It would be very easy to create a simple PO that people can buy into within a year of enactment.

      If my leaders in DC are wise, they'll take HR 3200 & the Senate HELP bill, streamline them and beef them up with a stronger, simpler, earlier PO and quick, better expansions of Medicaid & Medicare and pass them through reconciliation.  PO should be separated from the health exchanges and implemented as a stand-alone program, available to everyone, required for none.

      Voters will love it.

      Private health insurers always manage to stay one step ahead of the sheriff - Sen. Sherrod Brown

      by Betty Pinson on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:32:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'd rather see it passed with (0+ / 0-)

      legislation down the road to help it evolve to singlepayer.

      It is the only way it will happen.

    •  Fck that! (0+ / 0-)

      If this bill fails I'm sending my next medical bill that my insurance won't cover to you. :)

      There are other parts of the bill that need to be passed.

  •  Maddow is practically the only journalist (30+ / 0-)

    on Cable TV willing to portray the "health care debate" as it really is--a struggle between the health care industry and the citizenry.  She is also extremely telegenic and appealing to both men and women.

  •  I stopped watching after Obama got elected. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sfgb, justmy2, Big Tex, seeta08, MariaWr

    And I started watching again in the month of August.

    So anecdotally, there's definitely something to those numbers.

    Regards,
    Corporate Dog

    -----
    We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

    by Corporate Dog on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:27:50 AM PDT

  •  The GOP are toast... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drache, Amayi, A Runner

    we should not underestimate Obama, he knows what he is doing.

    Progressive Power Rules!

    by cyeko on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:28:03 AM PDT

  •  They're ratings are up (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rogneid, Clarknt67, CS in AZ

    because there has been some crazy shit going on and they are pushing it as much as the other channels. The town hall meetings, birthers, death panels, death books, the Angry Left - it's all hysteria and lies that have brought people back. 24/7 cable news filled with a ton of guessing - just like these blogs.

    This isn't about wanting the PO, it's about Obama supporters being impatient and looking for some clue on the news to confirm their doubts, hopes or fears about health care reform or Obama. I seem to recall this was the same thing that occurred during the general election - looking to cable news to repeat and confirm your doubts, hopes and fears about Obama winning the election.

    The WH is NOT going to heed your call to pay attention.  The media, in their minds, is completely inept and good at fanning the flames where there was never fire.  And the Left used to think the same thing unless they are repeating and confirming the doubts, hopes and fears that you have about Obama.

  •  Maybe it's the Hitler supporters, like Buchanan: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jamfan, Big Tex, Dcoronata, BYw

    MSNBC's Pat Buchanan defends Hitler.  Again.

    http://mediamatters.org/...

  •  When I feel like nothing but (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ballerina X, seeta08, A Runner

    crazies are all around me, it is refreshing to know people are now wanting to go to a station willing to speak facts rather than innuendo and well, flat out lies.

    -6.13 -4.4 Where are you? Take the Test!!!

    by MarciaJ720 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:37:49 AM PDT

  •  All this while being kicked out of basic cable (7+ / 0-)

    EXTREMELY impressive!

    Torture: An act... specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering upon another person within his custody or physical control.

    by MsGrin on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:38:21 AM PDT

  •  I won't support any candidate that opposes public (10+ / 0-)

    option.  I canvased for Obama and Warner in 2008, but I will stay home in 2010 if they stab me in the back.  This will be the ultimate betrayal.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

    by ecostar on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:39:31 AM PDT

  •  Since when was 18-34 the key measure (4+ / 0-)

    tvbythenumbers.com uses 25-54 and 35-64 and their results show that Fox is killing MSNBC by at least a three to one margin.  Hannity beats Maddow every day with 2 to three times more audience.  Heck, O'Reilly reruns at 11 gets more people than Maddow at 9.

    I know you cherry-picked the data to find some good news to show other Kossacks but there are so many other scoreboards out there showing our chance to give health care to all and free families from worrying about bankruptcy due to poor health are in danger of not passing.

    We need to find the right message, the right code, the right something to tell people to pass this plan because it's good for the country and good for your economic security.

    •  it is the money demo... (9+ / 0-)

      The prize demographic is 18-45 preferably middle class. These are the people that are starting out, buying cars, homes, recreational vehicles, taking vacations etc and spending the most money in the marketplace. You will rarely see a commercial for something like an Escalade in a show that appeals to teens or that draws incomes that are very low. Every day products like toilet tissue has appeal across all audiences. It really depends on what the advertiser is selling and what their target audience is. Most advertisers want to reach the biggest group that is spending money on their product.

      "Republicans drove the country into a ditch and now they are complaining about the cost of the tow truck"-Jim Cornette

      by justmy2 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:54:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Advertisers care more about (8+ / 0-)

      the 18-34 segment and I believe they base their ad rates off that segment.  Fine with me - let Faux News have the old people falling asleep in front of their TVs every night, because 18-34 year olds are the future.

      -7.12, -7.54 / "Health care reform will never take place until Rahm Emanuel is strangled with the entrails of Frank Luntz." - Diderot

      by Big Tex on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:59:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Liberals don't need (0+ / 0-)

      the security blanket of be told they're correct b/c they know they are. And vice versa for conservatives. No, really.
      Liberal stations will never win in raw numbers, but any
      increase is BIG. Think how close the the last 3 pres elections, were. Not to mention Jim Webb, Al Franken, and Darcy Burner.

    •  In 2005 Fox beat MSNBC 6 to 1 (0+ / 0-)

      I haven't checked the numbers recenetly, but the last time I did O'Reilly had lost between 30 and 40% of his audience from five years ago.

      The progressive media has the momentum and time on their side. All they have to do is not resort to lies and distortions like the right and the truth shall set us free.

      Sanctimony thy name is Joe Lieberman.

      by roguetrader2000 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:42:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There is no doubt in my mind (14+ / 0-)

    that the more the Administration hedges on health care reform...their approval ratings continue to go down.

    Until and unless Obama stands up to all those who are wrong...and fights for good health care for all he will not only be a one term President, he will end up not being a very good one either.  What happened to all those good political instincts?

    I'm mad as hell and can't take it anymore. We need health insurance!

    by pattisigh on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:41:12 AM PDT

    •  Obama will be a great President and (0+ / 0-)

      probably get a second term, if things turn around.  Signs show that they are, and he has to get this healthcare passed so people will have a couple years to see its effects.  He knows this.

      If we knock down Faux News with every talking point we will be just fine.

    •  His COS killed them. nt (0+ / 0-)
    •  His Good Political Instincts are the Problem (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pattisigh

      Granted, the guy can give one hell of an inspirational speech but I'm just not seeing any passion and determination with the public option.  (or taking drastic measures to reforming and regulating the financial industry after they crashed the economies of the entire world)

      He doesn't have to be a dick about it like our past two leaders, but damn it, he needs to quit being so diplomatic, especially when he rebuts pathetic fear mongering lies.  Who out there would blame the guy for spitting fiery venom for having something as universal as their own birth certificate questioned?

  •  MSNBC would be a lot (9+ / 0-)

    stronger if cable company would stop pulling the plug in major democratic cities. MSMBC are blacked-out throughout the country and in most hotels.

    I supported and voted for the President like the most of us. I lost faith when he picked Emmanual for cheif of staff instead of Howard Dean. I would have been more comfortable with JOHN MCCAIN.

    The two major flaws with Obama for me was: blue dog, dlc,Emmanual. and Obamas background of Milton Freiedman, capitalism chicago school of economics.
    The civil war in this county should be against the take-over of corporations as a person bull shit.

    •  I gotta defend my alma mater (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      majcmb1

      The University of Chicago is one of the few places in this country where both liberal and conservative intellectuals in decent numbers are respected by their colleagues and by liberal and conservative students alike.  Plus, Obama was the State Senator for Hyde Park, which is one of the most economically diverse (and racially integrated) neighborhoods in the entire country.  The problem with the right wing in this country is not enough of them actually went to the U of C, or advanced beyond the cliffs notes versions.  And, for what it's worth, Aaron Director would be appalled at Obama's and Christine Varney's aggressive antitrust agenda.

      And Milton Friedman or no, the school also had Judge Abner Mikva, Cass Sunstein, Martha Nussbaum, David Strauss, and Judge Diane Wood on faculty when I was there.

      (I was Haverford undergrad, U Chicago law.)

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:47:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The flaw is (0+ / 0-)

      he has no clue how to manage anything.  It is becoming more and more apparent.

      •  The Flaw is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rlochow

        I think that Icarr23 mentioned the flaw:

        ...he picked Emmanual for cheif of staff...

              (emphasis mine)

        I really believe this is the reason for his problems.  I do not think that Rahm was part of the plan when Obama was taking about change during the campaign.  Rahm was an after thought after the win.  I think a very bad choice for that very important position.

    •  I stayed in a hotel that listed MSNBC but (0+ / 0-)

      it had been changed to a channel on golf.

    •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

      Maybe this party would suit you better:
      http://www.cpusa.org/

    •  WOW! I Agree Except For One Thing (0+ / 0-)

      I could have written your comment except for one statement:

      I would have been more comfortable with JOHN MCCAIN.

      Here is part of the statement that I agree the most:

      The two major flaws with Obama for me was: blue dog, dlc,Emmanual ...

          (emphasis mine)

      Howard Dean should have been part of his cabinet.  Dept of Health and Human Services would have been perfect and we would not be in this mess.  My take on this is because Rahm is handling the Chief of Staff position.

  •  This is wrong (10+ / 0-)

    FOX beats MSNBC across the board in every demo every time period on every weekday.  There's not one MSNBC show that beats one FOX show head to head.  In fact, FOX usually more than double MSNBC's ratings.  

    It is true the MSNBC beats CNN pretty regularly, but doesn't even come close to FOX.

    You also incorectly quote this statistic:

    The other interesting piece of news, which is the subject of this diary, is that during the heated August health care debate MSNBC outperformed CNN by 61 percent and FNC by 4 percent in the key 18-34 demographic in prime time.

    It's actually weekend Prime Time the article refers to, in which MSNBC  runs more  documentary programming.  And even then they only beat Fox by 4%

    The actual quote from the article:

    · MSNBC beat CNN in weekend sales prime (7 p.m.-2 a.m.) by 32 percent among A25-54 (241,000 vs. 182,000). MSNBC was also the #1 cable news net in this time period among A18-34.

    Recent example (which is pretty representative):

    Cable News Ratings for Tuesday, September 1, 2009

    Cable News Ratings for Tuesday, September 1, 2009

    P2+ Total Day
    FNC – 1,428,000 viewers
    CNN – 563,000 viewers
    MSNBC –398,000 viewers
    CNBC – 213,000 viewers
    HLN – 351,000 viewers

    P2+ Prime Time
    FNC – 2,773,000viewers
    CNN— 939,000 viewers
    MSNBC –1009,000 viewers
    CNBC – 139,000 viewers
    HLN – 672,000viewers

    25-54 Total Day
    FNC –388,000 viewers
    CNN –144,000 viewers
    MSNBC –120,000 viewers
    CNBC – 78,000 viewers
    HLN- 181,000 viewers

    25-54 Prime Time
    FNC – 754,000 viewers
    CNN – 225,000 viewers
    MSNBC –280,000 viewers
    CNBC – 56,000 viewers
    HLN – 301,000 viewers

    35-64 Total Day
    FNC – 667,000 viewers
    CNN – 240,000 viewers
    MSNBC – 197,000 viewers
    CNBC – 114,000 viewers
    HLN – 208,000 viewers

    35-64 Prime Time
    FNC –1,298,000 viewers
    CNN – 365,000 viewers
    MSNBC –513,000 viewers
    CNBC –87,000 viewers
    HLN –364,000 viewers

    Morning programs (6:00AM-9:00AM) P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    FOX & Friends- 948,000 viewers (393,000) (649,000)
    American Morning- 435,000 viewers (124,000) (249,000)
    Morning Joe- 346,000 viewers (118,000) (195,000)
    Squawk Box- 164,000 viewers (77,000) (115,000)
    Morning Express w/ Meade- 264,000 viewers (214,000) (226,000)

    5PM – P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    Glenn Beck– 2,778,000 viewers (629,000) (1,151,000)
    Situation Room—614,000 viewers (103,000) (231,000)
    Hardball w/ Chris Matthews—498,000 viewers (108,000) (231,000)
    Fast Money—270,000 viewers (a scratch w/ 49,000) (104,000)
    Prime News–263,000 viewers (138,000) (174,000)

    6PM – P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    Special Report with Bret Baier– 2,104,000 viewers (446,000) (896,000)
    Situation Room—570,000 viewers (126,000) (219,000)
    Ed Show—527,000 viewers (155,000) (269,000)
    Mad Money—226,000 viewers (68,000) (106,000)
    Prime News — 274,000 viewers (144,000) (164,000)

    7PM – P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    The Fox Report w/ Shep –2,069,000 viewers (447,000) (894,000)
    Lou Dobbs Tonight—420,000 viewers (81,000) (134,000)
    Hardball w/ C. Matthews—616,000 viewers (144,000) (313,000)
    Kudlow Report —186,000 viewers (63,000) (70,000)
    Issues– 470,000 viewers (195,000) (274,000)

    8PM – P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    The O’Reilly Factor – 3,439,000 viewers (901,000) (1,595,000)
    Campbell Brown – 838,000 viewers (151,000) (250,000)
    Countdown w/ K. Olbermann – 1,271,000 viewers (351,000) (666,000)
    CNBC Reports– 126,000 viewers (a scratch w/ 42,000) (54,000)
    Nancy Grace – 957,000 viewers (435,000) (583,000)

    9 PM – P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    Hannity –2,632,000 viewers (695,000) (1,244,000)
    Larry King Live —1,113,000 viewers (300,000) (479,000)
    Rachel Maddow Show —968,000 viewers (257,000) (490,000)
    House of Cards – 145,000 viewers (62,000) (104,000)
    Issues- 531,000 viewers (197,000) (249,000)

    10 PM P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    On The Record w/ Greta Van Susteren —2,242,000 viewers (660,000) (1,050,000)
    Anderson Cooper 360 —866,000 viewers (223,000) (365,000)
    Countdown w/ K. Olbermann – 788,000 viewers (232,000) (382,000)
    House of Cards – 145,000 viewers (62,000) (104,000)
    Nancy Grace –566,000 viewers (292,000) (285,000)

    11 PM P2+ (25-54) (35-64)
    The O’Reilly Factor —1,420,000 viewers (510,000) (740,000)
    Anderson Cooper 360 —641,000 viewers (239,000) (292,000)
    Rachel Maddow Show —501,000 viewers (191,000) (296,000)
    Mad Money – a scratch w/ 79,000 viewers (a scratch w/ 43,000) (61,000)
    Showbiz Tonight– 393,000 viewers (177,000) (195,000)

    I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and in all places...arousing and persuading and reproaching you.-Socrates

    by The Navigator on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:43:36 AM PDT

    •  Keeping Lou dobbs (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Phil S 33, cybersaur, Tanya, BYw, seeta08

      officially made CNN a right wing cable news, add to that the hiring of every former Bushie on the planet. I hope they continue to sink.

      Most trusted name in news my a**

    •  Thanks for the facts (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GATXER, BYw, The Navigator

      sometimes, people report things as they WISH they were rather than as they actually are.  

      And the facts are that FNC pretty much dominates, ratings wise, over both CNN and MSNBC.  

    •  CNN is in a ditch... (6+ / 0-)

      Ed is neck and neck with a veteran like Wolf B. and hasn't been on tv 6 months...

      Keith replay is in shooting range of 360's first hour...

      CNN is quickly going down the toilet...

      I don't even turn it on these days and I used to at least flash past it.  It really is a waste of time.

      "Republicans drove the country into a ditch and now they are complaining about the cost of the tow truck"-Jim Cornette

      by justmy2 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:57:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't have a problem with CNN (0+ / 0-)
        Wolf Blitzer is an actual news reporter who knows his stuff. Why should ratings have anything to do with it? True, Lou Dobbs is a right-wing asshole. I guess CNN, in their pathetic attempt to please everyone, tried to combat the moronic allegations of "liberal bias" by making their only pundit a wingnut. And I don't care for Campbell Brown or Anderson Cooper, though they do at least try to be journalists. But CNN has good programming during the day (or at least much better than FNC's and about the same as MSNBC's).

        "Selfishness is the only real atheism; aspiration, unselfishness, the only real religion." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

        by Mike Peterson on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:56:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Where is 18 - 34 alone? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tanya, wmholt

      I think that is where MSNBC is doing very well.  That is where the growth will be going forward.

      You are absolutely correct that FNC kills the other two cable channels when including everyone.  But in the future, it seems to me that MSNBC will continue to improve given the "generational divide".

      •  18-34 does not watch a lot of cable news... (0+ / 0-)

        At least for advertisers, their news-watching numbers are statistically insignificant.  The 25-54 demo is the prime buying age range, and that's what  advertisers are interested in.

        Your point is well taken, however, and I have seen the 18-34's.  FOX  still beats MSNBC during the weekdays, as far as I can recall, but not by as wide a margin as other demos.

        As the article the diarist references says, MSNBC does in fact just edge out FOX among this  demo on weekend nights, but MSNBC is not running news programming during this period, and their margin only 4%

        I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and in all places...arousing and persuading and reproaching you.-Socrates

        by The Navigator on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:28:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Did you click on "headlined" link? (0+ / 0-)

      TV by the Numbers just headlined: "MSNBC Beats CNN in Primetime in August Among Viewers 25-54".

  •  Cable news is irrelevant. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fromer

    Tabloids had a bigger impact (see Sarah Palin) than cable news in 2008 elections.

  •  Duh. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oceanview, Midwesterners

    I thought politicians were good at reading polls.

    Not so much it seems.

    Anyone here about Democratic Electoral Victory?

  •  Then why is Comcast, among other cable providers, (10+ / 0-)

    are pushing MSNBC into the more expensive tiers while keeping FOX and CNN in the more popular first tier?

    Actions like these make me even more skeptical about the willingness of cable providers to supply real information to Americans.

    Don't pay more for real information, call you cable company and demand that they put and keep MSNBC in the basic packages.

    They tortured people
    To get false confessions
    To fraudulently justify
    Invasion of Iraq!
    -Seneca Doane

    by James Kresnik on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:47:01 AM PDT

  •  Rachel Maddow should be host of Meet the Press (18+ / 0-)

    Please take the smarmaster David Gregory and flush him down ASAP. He is the worst.

    This is just to say Forgive us victory tastes delicious so sweet and so cold

    by Dave the Wave on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:53:25 AM PDT

  •  President Obama Knows That It Is The Younger (7+ / 0-)

    voters who will be the bread and butter of the democratic party in the future.  Also, I hope the democrats ignore the old people (65+) and focus on my age group (56) who will be the future elders and who vote democrat every time.  The older generation are repugs, and I don't think that we democrats will get them to change no matter what President Obama does or doesn't do.  President Obama needs to please his base, and quit worrying about the independents. You can't depend on idependents because they are fickle.  That is why they are independents.  Why anyone calls themself an independent is beyond me.  Myself, I do believe that there are people who can't make up thier minds and just go with who the media loves at the time, and if they call themselves independent than that is their perogative.  I call them sheep.

    •  Wll said, Rssrai! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Canyon Lefty

      Agree, totally--and not just because I'm your age!

      Just Speaking of the 2008 Election, I don't know how anyone could have "debated" between which "Party" to vote for in the Presidential Election after all that the Repugnicans did to the economy, environment, Middle East and Globe!

      You are so right: A so-called "Independent" in November 2008 was a true Sheep!  As for the present day, we now need to work on electing REAL Democrats, and no longer the Blue Cross-Liebercrat-Democrat-in-Name-Only idiots that are clogging up so many parts of Congress!

    •  Don't forget that Gen X is more conservative (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jamfan

      My generation, brought up on Reagan, is still quite conservative unfortunately.  The good news is that our generation is smaller than some of the others.

      Gen Y is liberal.

  •  I always hear about the key demographic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ManhattanMan, Tanya

    I care more about the sheer number of viewers.

    The key demographic only has impact on advertising dollars.

    Liberals and conservatives are two gangs who have intimidated rational, normal thinking beings into not having a voice on television or in the culture.

    by Dave B on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 06:58:39 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for the ratings news, but ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, Robinswing, OnlyWords

    I disagree with the notion that the WH is telling the progressive base "to suck it up".  That is really a blanket generalization that is not true.

    There are a lot of issues, and I have found that Pres. Obama has seriously listened to the progressive arguments, sometimes siding with them completely, sometimes splitting the difference with a more moderate approach, but the idea that he is throwing the base under the bus is hogwash.

    No, sometimes the base, getting a huge proportion of what it wants but not all, gets whiny, which is extremely unhelpful.

    Now your larger point on the ratings and how the public really is for the public option is a good one.  But lose the WH bashing.  This fight is hardly over.

  •  Check you rnumbers again (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GATXER

    From HUFPO

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    Watching MSNBC is like watch junior high school students do the news.  We can do a lot better with some adults.  

    •  Rachel Maddow = teenager? (14+ / 0-)

      I think you have mixed up F-x with MSNBC.  Maddow is the best researched cabel news out there followed closely by KO and Ed Shultz.  When I view F-x, which admittedly is rarely, I see very phoney looking people speaking like they are 6th grade girls on the playground.  The inflection in their voices and their sarcasm is very annoying to me.  Even when they go to a report from a roaming reporter the attitude is snotty when they report.  It is very juvenile, annoys the hell out of me.  It is telling though as I can spot a F-x watcher from a mile away on how they talk.  They all are dismissive and snotty when discussing their views.

      •  Don't (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GATXER

        watch Fox and cannot stand to watch MSNBC.  Just because someone agrees with your point of view does not mean they do any research. KO is brain dead, he is a joke, and is akin to watching a 13 year old girl that is pissed off at her girlfriends.   Snide comments, personal attacks for no apparent reason, and intellectual lightweight, I could on and on about him.  I cannot think of a worse person to pick as a communicator of progressive ideas.  

        •  Then why don't you name a better one? (4+ / 0-)

          Thought so.

          Rogues are preferable to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest. - Alexandre Dumas

          by elropsych on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:36:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I can imagine your point (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kokomo for Obama, awsdirector

          of reference in the disscussion of facts, but the facts brought up on the msnbc shows are correct and not stated anywhere else on any news show.  I find your statement about not watching f-x, false.  Yes. I believe you are a liar.  Your statements reek of falsehood in that you cannot see the value in what msnbc is doing.  Opposition to the standard opinions being put out there by all the others.    I don't always agree with any of the msnbc hosts but I admire their thoroughness in getting the other views out there.  I watch for information not entertaiment or celebrity.  

          •  Never (0+ / 0-)

            said there was no value. The "facts" brought up on MSNBC as well as any other show must be looked at through the proper filter;ie, what point of view are they coming from.  If calling me a liar makes you feel better go for it.  It is the same type of
            gratuitous comments that KO and most of the hosts on msnbc stoop to. I see why you like them.

        •  Um, no. (3+ / 0-)

          I have disagreed with Keith on more than one occasion, but there is nothing brain dead about him. He is lively, never afraid to speak out against people who need it, and generally gets his facts straight. Hey, nobody's perfect, but in my opinion, he comes closer than anyone else.

          Got a problem with snide remarks? Perhaps you've come to the wrong website.

          "The first thing I'll do if elected is demand a recount." -- Kinky Friedman

          by JW in Dallas on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:13:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We're not talking about Keith (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HootieMcBoob, gloriana, PeggyD

          You specifically cited Rachel Maddow. In what universe is David Gregory a better interviewer than Maddow? He's not half as informed on the issues. Because he's not, he rarely asks decent follow-ups. Maddow has a viewpoint, yes, but it's an informed one. And she's always civil and respectful of her guests, no matter what their viewpoint. I like her more than Keith. Keith always had an "amen corner." Rachel actually interviews people she doesn't agree with. And she does it well. You can't possibly have watched her show much if you can't see that. I will grant your criticism to a point about Olbermann. To a point. He's opinionated and his self-righteous indignation can be wearing even when you agree with him. But he was the ONLY voice out there in "mainstream" television who was telling the truth at a time that it needed to be told, and I was grateful he was there. However, I like more of an exchange of viewpoints than I get with Keith, as long as there's some vigorous advocacy on BOTH sides. With most of the MSM, the wingers dominate the conversation, the so-called neutral hosts are neutral because they have no knowledge, not because they're being objective, nine times out of ten. And they let all kinds of outrageous disinformation go by without even questioning it. When Rachel makes an error she comes back and corrects herself. When a guest or colleague makes an error, she comes back later with research and facts to back up what she didn't have at hand when the original remarks were made. NOBODY but NOBODY else in media does that.

    •  So I'm supposed to believe everything written in (0+ / 0-)

      huffpo? Every time that woman comes on a TV show I switch the channel immediately. I don't believe one thing that comes out of that woman's mouth.

      A man's only as old as the woman he feels. Groucho

      by tazz on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:36:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  passing single payer would guarantee Dem majority (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    equinespecter, Tanya, George Pirpiris

    ...for 30 years.

    I guess that's just too much governing for a political class that values post-government consulting boons more highly than doing their fucking civic duty as elected officials.

    So it goes.

    Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
    P.S. I am not a crackpot.
    -Abe Simpson

    by fromer on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:08:29 AM PDT

  •  Don't every underestimate the power of Obama (4+ / 0-)

    He is letting this thing go hog wild, like Maxine Waters said. "Let people see them for whom they really are."

    Obama has managed to get people really worked about this Healthcare debate and isn't this what he asked for all during his campaign. "I can't do it without you."  Thank you Obama for getting the "We the People involved."

  •  Er, what? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Newsie8200, elwior, sherijr, Rustbelt Dem

    they better start thinking about splitting the party and create a new truly progressive party to the left of the now corporate owned Democratic party.

    That's the kind of bullshit that makes progressives a nearly worthless voting bloc that few national politicians dare rely on.  

    This kind of talk of a new party is so goddamned stupid.  Start a new conservative party.  Because, you see, when you have multiple parties on the right that actually garner votes, they don't get to win elections any more and we don't wind up with war criminal sociopaths like George W Bush or Ronald Reagan taking office again.  Please.  

    "An open mind means searching for facts, not ignoring them in the interest of fairness."

    by Sun dog on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:12:28 AM PDT

    •  Yep (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elwior, Sun dog, sherijr

      The new party talk is Naderite garbage.

      Glenn Beck, you are a traitor.

      by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:21:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  After less than a year (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elwior, Rustbelt Dem

        In 1999, arguing with dozens of people in their early twenties who were just too wise and above it all to vote for Al Gore over George W Bush, I could kind of understand where they were coming from.  I knew they were deeply wrong but at the same time, they didn't remember Reagan like I did.  They didn't really understand the threat from the right at all.  I would think at this point any sane person hearing the line, "There is no real difference between Al Gore and George Bush," would know that it's completely insane.  But then it held sway.  I've kind of assumed that once we got a Democrat back in power and they had to start doing the pesky things that come with actually being in office, the same process would start again.  I never imagined it would be so fast.  

        I'm not blind to the missteps Obama has made.  Who the hell thought he'd be perfect?  If I could speak with him again, there would be things I'd urge him to do that I didn't say back during the campaign.  Wow, big surprise.  But I'm baffled how people can go from 'He could be doing some things better' to this wallowing in bitterness.  It's like they have a ten minute attention span and almost no sense of history.  

        Or maybe they're just making the mistake of believing our strongest power comes from the threat of withholding our support?  

        "An open mind means searching for facts, not ignoring them in the interest of fairness."

        by Sun dog on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:14:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't have a problem (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sun dog

          with those that are remorseful about their vote for Nader in 2000.  Rather, the ones that are still proud of it and see no difference at all between the Democratic and Republican parties after 8 years of Bush-Cheney that piss me off.

          Glenn Beck, you are a traitor.

          by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 02:39:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  SurveyUSA is more accurate (4+ / 0-)

    And their poll shows 77% support for the public option.

  •  If we're watching TV, we're not making calls (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tobendaro, Canyon Lefty

    I hope that we're trying to win the hearts and minds of our neighbors, and not just "listening to the choir" on MSNBC.

    Just a thought.

  •  I don't think that is a good idea. (0+ / 0-)

    Democrats paying attention to MSNBC ratings to me is akin to Republicans paying attention to FOX News ratings, and we all know what that has done.  

    You'd be a lot cooler if you were from Minnesota!!!

    by mim5677 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:16:09 AM PDT

    •  How is that, why the false equivalancy? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      flash123, JW in Dallas

      I get sick of that same meme.

      Do you not realize that media is the key to politics, its is litereally the oil in our engine.

      OF COURSE ratings and viewership matters, what do you think more than .01% of the American public read news on websites, let alone blogs?

      Sure the GOP is in the minority now, and their network is blowing up.
      But in the end when 50% of people believe in death panels and 15% believe their president is not an American, thats when viewership on MSNBC counts.

      Also, it is important for young people to watch news that is true.

      The fact that 18-25 year olds are watching Keith and Rachel is music to this 30 year old.

      And don't discount that many of the savy 18-25 go to Stewart first.

      PCCC: http://boldprogressives.org
      TYT: http://www.theyoungturks.com

      by George Pirpiris on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:51:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think it's a good idea. (0+ / 0-)

        When a news channel focuses on one political party the only truth that comes out is the truth they feel like telling.  I don't think you can prove otherwise.

        I don't want democratic politicians doing what a "news" channel tells them to do.  I don't like it when the GOP does what Fox wants why would i be a hypocrit and say it's okay only if it benefits me.  That's f&!@ing stupid.

        You'd be a lot cooler if you were from Minnesota!!!

        by mim5677 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:16:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ok fine, we're right and they are wrong (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          flash123, jennylind, JW in Dallas

          Plus our side is interested in the truth and not politics.
          Keith and Rachel have called out the administration on every broken promise, they had no problem playing clips from the campaign where pledges were made.

          If anything MSNBC is probably more of a pain in Rahm's ass than Fox.  Fox attacks Obama/DNC, we challenge them.
          Again you are playing false equivalency between networks.

          Does it make you a hypocrite, no it makes you logical.

          I haven't seen one thing come from the 6-9 segments on MSNBC that didn't reflect the base of the party.

          Im not sure you know how lucky we are to have young people watching Rachel Maddow.
          If they can get her pretty wonky show, that is progress in America.

          You realize alot of kids in that age group watch MTV and E channel right?

          PCCC: http://boldprogressives.org
          TYT: http://www.theyoungturks.com

          by George Pirpiris on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:35:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bro I'm 32 (0+ / 0-)

            don't think your that old.  I've been watching the news for a long time now, it's not that hard.

            I was listening to her radio show for years and if you ask me she is serving jell-o on TV.

            It's not a false equivalency.  You may disagree, but FOX News was not always the way it is today.  If MSNBC goes the way of FOX which is entirely possible and democrats start using MSNBC the way the GOP uses FOX it's over.  

            You are mistaken if you think that democrats are better people or smarter than republicans, you may think that but at your own risk because they aren't.  

            The evidence is already there

            You'd be a lot cooler if you were from Minnesota!!!

            by mim5677 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:58:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Numerous psychological studies (0+ / 0-)

              and surveys of Dems vs Repubs have all consistently shown that Democrats are far more accurately informed about politics and other related subjects such as history & economics.
              Psychological studies have demonstrated that conservatives are neurotic, fearful, aggressive, and authoritarian, who have nightmares 3 times as often as Democrats. Conservatives are far more likely to have mental illness.  
              My own study that I have been doing all mt life has conclusively shown that conservatives are almost totally ignorant, yet think they have all the answers.

              Of course it hurts - you're getting screwed by an elephant.

              by sean oliver on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 01:12:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I was with you until 3rd party (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shpilk, middleagedhousewife, elwior

    Not possible in our system. Any viable 3rd party starts from the middle and works its way out (either left or right) and then displaces one of the 2 major parties, giving us once again a two-party system.

    The only new party that might have a chance to grow right now would be from the middle right, since the Republicans have gone all extreme right-wing religious fanatic.

    President Obama and both houses of Congress are the best we're going to get. This is the moment - stop frittering it away by fantasizing about a third party. Point yourself toward Washington D.C. and yell loud and long right now.

  •  I was with you right until (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    middleagedhousewife

    THe end. No third party. We change the party from the inside by trying to elect more Democrats for the Democratic party. It will mean some losses and many primaries. But we must do what needs to be done for the American people.

    Progressives are not always right.Sorry, but they are not. Our ideas are just good ideas.That is all. Good ideas that could work.

    by theone718 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:18:36 AM PDT

    •  sorry to burst the bubble (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      flash123, Tanya

      BUT...Here are the statistics:

      22% Registered Republicans
      38% Registered Democrat
      40% Registered Independents (Unaffiliated)

      The "Unaffiliated Voter" is rapidly eclipsing both parties and is the fastest growing "non-party" in the country.

      •  This is not representative of long term data, (0+ / 0-)

        and reflects a lot of ex-Republicans who are well to the right of existing Democrats.

        If I were a Republican, I'd be embarrassed to admit it in public, wouldn't you?

        The majority of the 'unaffiliated' is not liberal or progessive, at all. I'd say it's split at about 25/15, giving 'the left' a very slight edge.

  •  Amazing that this made the Rec List (7+ / 0-)

    when as The Navigator demonstrates in his/her post above, the ratings data is not right.  For further info, see the post "Check your numbers again" and this link from huffpo.  

    MSNBC is NOT doing better against FNC.  In fact, recently FNC has been widening its lead. The article on Huffpo makes clear that MSNBC is not only losing in overall viewers, but in that key demographic.  

    This is supposed to be a reality based community.  

  •  good post - i believe the problem obama (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tanya, MrJersey, elwior

    is suffering is due to the voters wanting a leader and not just some person facilitating discussions. the obama administration needs to understand that they have done an abysmal job in communicating why healthcare reform needs to happen and how its better for a capitalistic society to have ideas brought to the market vs. having ideas trapped in a corporate bureaucracy because your family needs healthcare. lastly, the obama administration is going to have to understand that the people who got him in office does not mind bipartisanship but you need to stand for something. for example, what's up with the pharmaceutical deal - i thought one of the main pillars of healthcare reform was competition.

    all i ask is that obama stop trying to be like clinton and mayor daley in chicago and start carving out his own leadership style. this may require you to stop listening to rahm emmanuel all the time - his type of politics ie a democrat that loves big business, is not where the country is.

    i want obama to succeed but i also need to speak up when i see someone i like being punked by the washington establishment

    •  I saw my first "OBummer, Politics as Usual" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tanya

      on a vehicle festooned with other progressive bumperstickers yesterday.  It wasn't the right wing OBummer sticker, it was clearly an expression the "Change we can believe in" is turning out to be very little change at all.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:33:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Stim Pack Did Not Have Overwhelming Public Opp. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u

    Where are you getting that from? That had public support throughout the legislative process.

  •  The question is: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tanya, MrJersey

    How low will the Obama approval numbers sink before he fires or at least stops listening to his corporate, Republican-lite advisors?

    Nono is very happy. - BarbinMD

    by clinging to hope on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:23:08 AM PDT

  •  MTP is the absolute perfect & correct place for: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemocracyLover in NYC, Tanya

    Rachel’s talent, she has the Detailed chops and get in your grill, truth to power loins, for the in the trench MTP confrontations.

    She's, articulate, well studied, unabashed, unafraid, she's a take no prisoners, keel hauler, she a neatly hangs em’ high kind of woman, just what’s needed once a week, in vast waste land, of hard hitting Investigative Journalism, that is solely missing.

    last Rachel is among the few, I've observed who can differentiate between the "Flotsam from the Jetsum." of the professional horse crappers, (Dick, Liz family business Cheney).

    And you can pick any of the apt descriptions, I've made and add your own, she is dead perfect for MTP and the longer they hold with Dickey G's, "half smirking smiles" and "Pardon me, your partisan is showing." MSM viewers read of this, pretty face out of place, the longer MTP's rating will tank and do the move a little, drop a lot,.

    MTP, was as much about the people Russert had on as him self and until there's a equal footing, the show is based solely on "whose on this week."

  •  Polls are useless when you have (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tanya, Jerry056

    a senator from a small state representing
    corporations, and a senator from a large state
    representing the people. Town Halls were just knee jerk reactions to the failure of getting bills out of the House and Senate by August recess. Emanual and Obama were Too Clever by Half. They set themselves up for this and can't get out. Democratic House members were sitting ducks for the Republicans and their armies of lunatics. And the media happily acquiesced in this circus.

  •  MSNBC has become the place for "Truth" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flash123, wyvern, JW in Dallas

    and people are recognizing that fact.  This uptick in ratings clarifies the point that CNN and Fox are nothing but shills for corporate america.

  •  Except for Scarface & Mika (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenGoshi, Tanya, MrJersey, wyvern

    MSNBC's morning ratings would zoom through the roof if they had the equivalent of Ed, KO, or Rachel on in the morning. No one I know watches Morning Joe.  He's a total "propaganda tool".

    This morning show is keeping MSNBC's ratings down.  It's time to get rid of this pathetic dog-n-pony show.  They're disgraceful and Mika is a disgrace to intelligent women in this country.

    •  i agree that msnbc ratings would increase (0+ / 0-)

      if they started the morning with a better host who asked deep questions about where we are as a country vs the political party talking points. i still do not understand why mika is even there - maybe because she is blonde and good looking (slap my hand, i am being sexist). ok. the only reason joe scarborough got the show was because 1)republicans had a plan to take over the media and 2)having the name joe was a catchy name for a morning show

    •  I won't watch MSNBC in the morning (0+ / 0-)

      I'll usually watch washington journal on CSPAN or something else until Scarboro and Mica are off the air.  I don't need to waste my time listening to them.

      Conversely I always try to watch Ed Schulz, Keith Olberman, and Rachael Maddow.  I sometimes watch tweety, but everything is a game to him, which I  don't like.

  •  Cherry picking numbers.. Fox beats MSNBC (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GATXER, coffeetalk, Amber6541

    in totals both for whole day and prime time.  CNN beats MSNBC as well in totals both all day and prime time.

    Live + Same Day Cable News Daily Ratings for August 31, 2009

    P2+ Total Day
    FNC – 1,415,000 viewers
    CNN – 658,000 viewers
    MSNBC –383,000 viewers
    CNBC – 196,000 viewers
    HLN – 364,000 viewers

    P2+ Prime Time
    FNC – 2,687,000viewers
    CNN— 1,183,000 viewers
    MSNBC –866,000 viewers
    CNBC – 145,000 viewers
    HLN – 668,000viewers

    Is the White House paying attention to this?

    Yeah.. they probably are..

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

    by Skeptical Bastard on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:35:17 AM PDT

  •  MSNBC is small potatos (5+ / 0-)

    All these ratings are essentially tiny - for CNN, Fox News too (although FN easily wins in sheer numbers).

    This represents a tiny slice of the population most likely to be interested in the ins and outs of politics from a liberal angle.  

    It is not representative of the country at large and the WH should pay attention to these ratings, but not assign nearly the degree of importance to them as you do.

    I'm shocked to learn that 1 in 12 Americans do not know that the bird, is in fact, that word.

    by dansac on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:37:19 AM PDT

    •  Or rather "potatoes" (0+ / 0-)

      I swear I'm not Dan Quayle

      I'm shocked to learn that 1 in 12 Americans do not know that the bird, is in fact, that word.

      by dansac on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:37:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Amber6541

      What about all the people who only get their tv news from the networks, national or local?

      Ron Burgundy: I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.

      by AZ RedWingsFan on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:49:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sadly, I think you're right Dansac! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Amber6541

      We political junkies rarely realize that most people only pay attention to "politics" about every four years--if even then!  Furthermore, most people--Dems and Republicans alike--really could care less about Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter and the rest of the loon tunes--because they barely know or care to know anything about them!

      Indeed, I know people who consistently vote "Republican" who think that it is STILL 1950 out there and that the Republicans are the true "party" of "common sense, small business and balanced budgets"--in other words, they STILL tragically equate "decency" with the Republican Party!  What's even more tragic is that many of these people were born long after the '50s, but they simply just don't pay attention to what's going on!

      •  Of course, Beck/Billo/Rush have their following (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Amber6541

        But there are an awful lot of Republicans who do not watch these folks!  I should have added that to my comment above, Dansac.

        •  They reach more people on the radio than on TV (0+ / 0-)

          I'm shocked to learn that 1 in 12 Americans do not know that the bird, is in fact, that word.

          by dansac on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:40:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I found that out..and was shocked! (0+ / 0-)

            You're right, Dansac..and when I found this out, I couldn't believe it!  I live in Illinois, and  the first time I heard someone listening to these wingnuts on the radio in a car next to me, I almost drove off the road. I didn't even know how profusely these lunatics clogged up the radio airwaves! (Obviously, I don't have my car windows rolled down in winter months.)  Since then, I've done my own personal "study" of the age groups of people that I see listening to right wingnuts in their cars:  And unfortunately, I've found out that many are a lot younger than I ever would have thought--and that's here in a Blue State!  Scary!!!  

  •  Incredible diary. Please keep it "As Is" and... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    goatchowder, shpilk, flash123, elwior

    .
     . . . don't bow to any temptation you might harbor to do an Update that says:  "Wow.  Rec List!  Thanks!"

     For the love of God or the Higher Power of your understanding, keep your diary as is.

     Thank you for this great work.

    bg
    _______________

    "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die."

    by BenGoshi on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 07:58:30 AM PDT

  •  Easy to sell public option to public if (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    revsue, elwior, Amber6541

    you ask them:
     For the people who will have the choice of a public option, those who can not afford health care and must be subsidized by your taxes, should your tax dollars be paying for health care that uses the first 31 cents of every dollar spent for administrative cost and CEO's millions OR one that uses the first 5 cents for administrative care? The public option will cost less. It will therefore use fewer tax dollars to provide health insurance. Simple economics would tell you that the public option will save tax dollars. Isn't that what everyone would want?

    Additionally for the sector of citizens that don't have health care from their work and are trying to buy inexpensive insurance, the Public option, by having less administrative cost, will allow more of them to buy their own health care. That will mean fewer people will need to be subsidized! Again fewer tax dollars being spent. Isn't that what you want?

  •  Listening to the local winnuttia here in (0+ / 0-)

    N Carolina.....Fox is CRUSHING all rivals.

  •  What is this labeling of Independents as (4+ / 0-)

    Republican leaning, with health care and afraid to lose it, in the first place?

    I have always referred to myself as an Independent/Progressive.
    Do I vote Dem and work for Dem candidates - you bet.
    Do I think they're above improvement or constructive criticism -  not at all.

    Never put either party before what made sense and what was best for the country as I saw it.
    Slavish adherence to party loyalty has always struck me as part of the problem when it comes to actually solving the country's problems.  

    This MSM notion of Independent voters as one uniform block needs to be seriously challenged.

    There's a bunch of us out here that don't fall into how the WH, Congress or the MSM are portraying us.

    Isn't trusting the Insurance Industry, Big Pharma, and Congress with Health Care Reform, like trusting Wall Street with the economy? Or did I miss something?

    by Onomastic on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:08:06 AM PDT

    •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic

      I am also a progressive independent but that's not the definition by the MSM or the White House. I agree that the definition needs to be challenged, as it's simply a smoke screen, and that's exactly the point that I was trying to make, that the sagging comes from both ends of the party and not just one.

  •  Obama's presidency will be dertermined wednesday (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chipoliwog, Amber6541

    Either he re-ignites his base or kills their spirit. he should come out swinging for P.O in HCR.

  •  What are the TOTAL numbers, not just the numbers (0+ / 0-)

    among young viewers.  Every time I watch the O'reilly Factor he boasts about how great his ratings are and how "NO ONE'S WATCHING" MSNBC.

  •  I have to voice a concern about the poll.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    notrouble, Amber6541

    While it's good to see MSNBC beating out CNN in my demo, I don't think the DNC/DSCC/DLC are going to pay all that much attention to it, and here's why:

    This the 25-44 demo is one of the largest blocs, it's not one of the largest by voting percentage.  There are a lot of us, but we aren't consistent in getting into the voting booths, and that inconsistency costs us in terms of Leadership Attention

    We're already turning that around---money raised by party, by age group is up (and money still talks), but until we can also demonstrate that we can put people into voting booths consistently, we're not gonna get the attention we're due.

    -5.75,-4.05 "The invisible hand of Adam Smith seems to offer an extended middle finger to an awful lot of people"---George Carlin

    by justadood on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:17:10 AM PDT

  •  Is "TV by the Numbers" a reliable source? (0+ / 0-)

    Aren't you supposed to cite Nielson when it comes to TV ratings?

  •  This diary is kind of crap. (5+ / 0-)

    Threats of a third party are empty threats.  The moment we go there, we are marginalized as Progressives.

    BTW:  This particular Gen Xer grew up under Reagan and wondered WTF ?!?  When I got old enough to be politically aware, it was no big deal to change that registration and start working for liberal causes.  There are more of us than most people think.

    Progressives are about electing more and better Democrats, and we've got majority public support on a lot of issues, and we've got the net roots.  

    We are forming better party leadership, have organized, and are learning how to throw our weight behind those things that matter.

    It's my belief that we need to make one shining example of BETTER Democrats.  Pick a seat, already Democratic but corporate, target it, let everybody know it's targeted, and post up a progressive challenger, and win that one.

    It's also my belief that a series of Progressive challengers should be run against very safe, but very corporate Democrats.  I personally would gauge the race and bring it right to the edge, if possible, but not let the Republican win.

    That corporate money is worth less when it has to be spent against Progressives, who incidentally can also provide some dollars.

    We would be well served with recurring donations, small amounts, monthly, made by progressives for a war chest.

    These are the things that we can do to bend political influence, without damaging ourselves as a party.

    Media Matters has a media bias study.  I can't find the link, but it's worth a read right now.  The American public is progressive on most things.  We know this, but that paper details why.

    Media bias is actually heavy corporate.  That's the problem --corporate politics and corporate media.

    Republicans are marginalized for the moment, leaving us vs the corporations.

    Progressives need to stay focused, positive and aggressive.  That's all.  Done right, we become the Democratic party.

    EVERY US CITIZEN SHALL BE COVERED BY MEDICARE FROM BIRTH UNTIL DEATH.

    by potatohead on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:20:26 AM PDT

  •  I find it absolutely amazing (4+ / 0-)

    that people who were never with Obama in the first place have now all of a sudden become his base.

    "If you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra

    by brooklynbadboy on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:27:31 AM PDT

  •  A big mistake the DNC and Obama is making (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jhw22

    is not to target College Students directly on his policies and for voter registration.

    I can't tell you how many kids from middle to upper middle class forgo insurance once they lose their parent's plan, or get ripped off with a 200$ premium and 1-2k deductible.

    I know Im not on the Obama advisor team, but I think it would be a smart clause to make 18-25 year olds on the short list for those with a first crack at the public option.

    Just watch this video:  (rachel covered it well, I just cant find the vid on  youtube)
    http://www.youtube.com/...

    For the richest country, we can't even care for the victims of terrorists?

    PCCC: http://boldprogressives.org
    TYT: http://www.theyoungturks.com

    by George Pirpiris on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:43:36 AM PDT

  •  The reason Maddow beats Olberman, imho (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wildthumb, moose67, notrouble

    I am a late convert to MSNBC news.  I only started watching Olberman/Maddow late last year, before that I only watched the Daily Show and Colbert, and got the rest of my news from DailyKOS, CNN, and MSNBC on line.  Since then, I have deprogrammed Countdown and now watch only Maddow between the two.

    My take on Maddow is that she is funny, sarcastic, thorough, and insightful.  She precisely skewers the opposition with wit and facts, and doesn't have any difficulty having polite conversations with even some of the nutjobs on the other side without resorting to Bill-O type tactics like shouting over them, ridiculing them to their face, or cutting their mic.  In particular I like how she tends to present both sides of an issue, then explain why the other side is wrong.  

    Olberman, though I respect what he does and agree with most of what he says, comes across to me as being bombastic, self-important, and arrogant.  He sounds so put out by what the other side is doing that he is about to pop a vein every other minute.  He also tends (imo) to cover only his side of the issue and either ignore the other side or denigrate it so much that the people in the middle might feel like he's attacking them.  I tend to feel as if he is the Bill-O of the left in terms of presentation, though he certainly doesn't spew made-up crap like the right does.

    I certainly hope both of them stick around, keep growing and get to as many people as possible. Whether or not he works for me, Olberman's style will probably appeal to a lot of people who might not care for Maddow, so more power to the both of them.

    Ignorance makes the world go flat

    by sleipner on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:45:52 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, he's an angry white man (0+ / 0-)

      I agree with him almost all of the time, but his whole vibe is definitely angry white man. That's the only thing he has in common with O'Falafel and Hannity and such.

      Ed too, sounds just like Limbaugh and has the same kind of sputtering rage. I don't agree with Ed as often as I do with KO, but still, it's the whole "angry white man" schtick.

      Maddow is a breath of fresh air, a new way of doing debate, choice of a new generation. I like her way better, and I think it's healthier for everyone, athough I'm certainly angry enough to cheer on KO when he gets on a roll.

  •  the MSM is looking at possible revenue losses if (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    averageyoungman, moose67, jhw22

    reform isn't shaped to their liking. They don't want pharma to lose the ability to do DTC advertising and they want a market that gets health insurers advertising on their networks.

    The economy has already greatly reduced advertising revenues in 2009, but they are reaping in dollars from the current health care reform debate and don't want to see it stop for a couple more months.

    A huge chunk of the $1.4 million per day pharma and AHIP et al is spending to shape reform efforts is landing in the MSM purses as well as from the the pro health care reform efforts. It's in CNN's and Fox's "best" interest to keep the uncertainty going.

    We don't have a free press. They are bought and paid for much like our current set of politicians.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

    by JDWolverton on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:51:42 AM PDT

  •  A thought. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flash123, averageyoungman

    We need to lock resources in and target - and bring down - one of the more powerful corporate crony/blue dog failure/whatever the crap you want to call these duplicitous fiends, and make an example of them.

    We got close with Lamont over Lieberman, but I don't think any of us expected that the Repubs would literally undercut their own candidate to beef up Sore Loserman.

    The TL;DR: We need to target one of these believed-unassailable morons, and bring them low with a massive grass and netroots effort. If we can successfully tear apart a beltway veteran who conventional wisdom holds as a lock, we punch gaping holes in the defenses and set things up so that it becomes clear we won't tolerate their shit.

    We shattered the inevitability balloon in 2008. We can do it again, and more aggressively this time.

  •  if Obama doesn't prominently... (0+ / 0-)

    ....feature a robust public option in his Wednesday speech, my feeling is that it probably will not happen.

  •  No offense but cable TV is the last worry I ever (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Futuristic Dreamer

    had or will ever have. It's all entertainment to me. I really do not think the majority of Americans give a damn or even watch cable pundit/partisan TV outside of political junkies. In fact, except for watching Ridge on Maddow's show, I think it's been a year since I even watched cable TV news.

    A man's only as old as the woman he feels. Groucho

    by tazz on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 08:59:15 AM PDT

  •  I am a (4+ / 0-)

    41 year old unaffiliated/independent voter.  I lean socialist but am rather conservative on certain issues.  I voted for Obama with "hope" for "change" and I feel I have been sold the fuck out.

    As a teacher I believe that his coprorate "Race To The Top" is really a full on attack on public education and is designed to further the privatization movement through the increase of charter schools.  Yes I know they are technically public schools but they are also more corporate in their ethos and organization.  Far from democratic, to be sure.

    He sold us out to the banks, the war-mongers, and now he is selling us out to the insurance and drug companies.  BTW, Has anyone even considered that an individual mandate w/out a public plan really amounts to serfdom?  SERFDOM!  On the manor with ya and you have a monthly obligation to your corporate overlords.  Yes, I understand the car insurance mandate; I do not have to ddrive.  But I can't opt out of living (short of suicide).  My body is to be confiscated and wholly "managed" by a private firm if this option is thrown away.

    This is just corporatism writ large.

    Troll rate away.  You will be wrong to do so but be my guest.

    Peace,
    ward

    •  If he allows a Mandate w/o PO... (0+ / 0-)

      He's not only bought and sold, but evil. I am thoroughly unimpressed with his governance so far, but I don't think he's an evil man. Of course, he has proved my best hopes for him to be fanciful at best to date, so who knows.

      As far as the TRs, I think the hero-worshiping contingent around here has stepped back and is contemplating who and what we actually have in the WH. A sobering reality to say the least. So comments such as yours may not be met with the expected dose of frantic idealism. Lucky me, my expectations for him were tempered, but I can not pretend to have expected his weaknesses to be this pronounced.

      Slap happy is a platform.

      by averageyoungman on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:28:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I tend to agree with the gist of what you (0+ / 0-)

      say, except that Obama is simply reflecting what is the status quo, and has shown very little movement towards effective change. Yet.

      I know, people will scream at me, but give the guy some more time.

      I see what you see, but I have not come to the same conclusion. Not quite Yet.

    •  I hear you on the charter school thing (0+ / 0-)

      ... no politician dares to disagree with them. But they're merely a tool to pick off tax dollars to fund private religious schools and destroy teacher's unions, which provide benefits.

      Locally, my pos neocon Republican Congressperson, McClintock, went to a school board meeting last year and sat up front with the lawyers for the attempted charter school takeover of one of the best schools in the state, if not the district. (businesses backing Christian homeschoolers who wanted to screw with the Public Schools and hire evangelical teachers) The lawyers said they'd sue if they didn't get to use the school's building facilities for free, the school board balked and said they couldn't afford that. The charter company lost the attempted takeover, but made the school district spend a lot of money defending themselves. Now the school board is sueing to try to recoup the money, as the school sets up in a church building, which they should have done in the first place.

      I went there and diaried on it, it looked like the local business Mafia (the Congressman is funded by Casino money)  was attempting an invasion. Because that particular school is so good already. Why charter it? Business greed.

      Yet no candidate dares to say they don't like chartered schools....

      "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

      by AmericanRiverCanyon on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:50:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ugh... this is bad (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    averageyoungman, Mike Peterson

    The 18-34 demo isn't the problem with healthcare, it the blue hair demo.  The 'don't touch my medicare demo'.  How would starting a 3 party do anything but even out the support of the republicans party versus its rivals?  If there's a 3 party system as you described which two parties would work together as a block?  You think these corporate dems would work with the progressives, that just stabbed them in the back, over their now much more ideologically similar republicans?

    How did this make the rec list?

    •  If they are betting they can win... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cnorton

      in 2012 without the same or similar enthusiasm from younger voters that landed Obama in the WH in 2008, they are lacing their joints with some heavy duty psychotropics.

      Your point about a third party is well taken, though. Personally I feel like it's really, really difficult to say what would happen, but I do not think it is realistic. Hopefully I am wrong about that.

      As far as the rec list - we need to acknowledge any and all leverage we have, and these ratings represent leverage.

      Slap happy is a platform.

      by averageyoungman on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:35:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes and no (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cnorton

      It's the younger Americans who don't usually feel health insurance matters. The fact that they are paying attention may mean more about the future than just this bill.

      Jennifer

      •  I would love if more (0+ / 0-)

        young people got involved.  In that sense it's great they are watching MSNBC.  I still think it's mostly those over 35 that are having the biggest impact on this issue.  And they seem to be the ones least informed.

  •  I'd be interested to see the web traffic... (0+ / 0-)

    For MSNBC's online video player. I'd bet good coin that they are no lower than second in unique visitors when compared to the same networks in this context, if not first by a large margin. I'd also be willing to bet that a large portion of their audience are early adopters of cutting edge technology, as progressives tend to be, and like myself only view their content online via their video player. I, and I'm betting many others, don't bother with cable any longer. This means that a potentially significant portion of their audience, that people like myself represent, may be completely left out of this ratings equation as the convergence of television and the internet continues.

    I could be wrong here, but I doubt it. This also assumes that web traffic is not considered in the ratings herein, which I doubt it is. Web analytics are much more detailed than the data for ratings in addition, so more can be gleaned there potentially. This would be something to look into.

    Slap happy is a platform.

    by averageyoungman on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:01:46 AM PDT

  •  If Obama Sells Us Out on the Public Option (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AmericanRiverCanyon

    He won't have a base to go to.
    And unless there is an intervening world event that rallies the country behind him, he will be a one-term president like Jimmy Carter. heart in the right place, but unable to deliver.

    The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by easong on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:10:25 AM PDT

  •  Don't clutch now Barack. My kids need you keep (2+ / 0-)

    your word

    especially the young, 18-34 Democrats who watch MSNBC as they are the ones who have the most to lose from yet another corporate giveaway of mandating private health insurance without giving people the choice of a strong public option.

  •  Maybe corp dems should just switch to GOP (0+ / 0-)

    If they are tired of taking shit from us, maybe they'd rather put up with Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson.

    Sanctimony thy name is Joe Lieberman.

    by roguetrader2000 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:35:56 AM PDT

  •  This diary is a dump! (5+ / 0-)

    It is great that MSNBC is an advocate for a progressive movement and at least in my house 5-10pm is on MSNBC even if I don't watch it but taking a shot under the cover of MSNBC to menupulate the content of this bullshit diary is disingenuous and bullshit not to mention the unsubstantiated claim of superiority based on a number that can be interpreted in many ways. Let's see your statement...

    The White House has been telling his base to suck it up since it came into office and before: support for the Bush bailout and subsequent Obama bailout of Wall Street, inadequate Stimulus Package, no Iraq pullout and escalation in Afghanistan, and now compromised health care reform.

    The whole fucking congress supported the bush bailout, yes Obama decided to bailout the banks and if you are not aware, the economy has great news lately if you read the bailout effect not to mention a return more than some hedge fund used to earn and paying back the bailout money they took, as to the stimulus package...obviously we now have a decline in job loss with only 1/3 of the stimulus spent and I am sure when all the moneys hit the streets, we will see a much stronger progress not to mention the fact that congress would not have given more than it has approved. As to Iraq pullout, the President has said 18 months to pullout combat troops and to fully get out by 2011. As to Afghanistan, he has said he will purse to get justice for those that have lost their loved ones on 9/11 and weaken al quaeda if not destroy and catch Bin Laden.

    And, now compromised health care reform...what a crack of bullshit is that...don't get ahead of yourself and wait until next Wednesday to look at what is being compromised before spewing an unsubstantiated gossip. Further, you seem to think it is Obama who has to get a legislation drafted and voted on as if he puts a gun on some asshat democrats in congress. No, it is the responsibility of each and every member in congress to push for PO.  

    There are a lot of persistent flies around here that need to get smacked like this...

    ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separates us!

    by ThisIsMyTime on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:41:23 AM PDT

  •  Progressives win when people see past the TV (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ThisIsMyTime

    past the scare tactics, corporate lies, commercials, and fake scandals that TV brings to politics.  We win when people look out their window, and see their neighbor who doesn't have healthcare, their friend in foreclosure, their child in a senseless war.  We need to fight the drug that's blinded Americans to the destruction Republicans have brought to this country, and that drug is TV.

    "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

    by Futuristic Dreamer on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:45:15 AM PDT

  •  Read your title and quivered in fear that (0+ / 0-)

    it meant no one was watching.   What a relief to find the opposite was true!

  •  I'm not a Democrat, I'm a democratic socialist. (6+ / 0-)

    Bernie Sanders is who I'd identify with.

    But there's not enough support on the left for a 3rd party. Any attempt to form one should be done in coalition with the existing Democratic Party. Done in any other manner, it will give the tactical advantage to the Republicans. [i.e. see "Ralph Nader"]

    What I'd like to see happen is more people like Sanders in government, and more importantly, a place for them inside the WH staff and Cabinet, not just Congress. Obama could show a clear path to the future by embracing people like Sanders; perhaps at some point, he will do just that.

    Democratic socialists are the future of this nation; providing a path to greater power and legitimacy of this coalition is within the President's grasp. He could change the whole ballgame with one appointment.

    •  He already did. He appointed Rahm Emanuel. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dave925

      He dumped Howard Dean, whose 50-state strategy won the election for the Democrats, took back the Democratic party for the corporate stooge DLC - and put Rahm Emanuel in charge of the White House. How's that for a game-changer?

      I agree with you. But I think your faith in Obama is unjustified.

      After eight years of George Bush, we were easy prey - we fell like a ton of bricks for a man who could lie in paragraphs.

      I'd love to be wrong. But my only remaining question regarding Obama is "did he believe anything he said in the campaign?" And even that one no longer particularly interests me.

      •  Obama's campaign message from the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        littlebird33

        get go was bipartisanship. While I would have liked to see Dean be part of the Administration, there was a lot of resentment between Dean and some in congress during his tenure as the Chairman of Democratic Party that hindered his chance to be part of the administration. You see, don't get me wrong, I love Dean and I am a product of Dean who became to love activism and politics because of what he stood and still stands for. However, Dean has pulled the wrong feathers to fly high as some asshat corporate dems are still calling the shot. Where as, the hummer/Rahm had already the inside track on how congress works, how bills are pushed as an insider and an arm twister, not to mention a raising star persona that has been handed to him which is why he was chosen as a huge asset for the administration and still is in my opinion less some of the over the top exchange during the heat of the moment that get over highlighted in this blog.

        Now to whether he believes anything he said, yes, he does to only find out that Washington is more fucked-up than he had expected it to be to change what he wanted so he is taking small steps until his troops are in line.

        Don't give hope as I am optimistic that before this administration's term is done either in the 1st or 2nd term, there will be a spot for Dean within this administration.

        ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separates us!

        by ThisIsMyTime on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:50:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "Bernie and Barack" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shpilk, Tricky

      5 months ago, Bernie from the inside

      ... with the full realization that for some of you a full presidential agenda is easily achievable in that amount of time, nevermind that Clinton was unable to achieve his agenda in 8 full years, nor has any other president, to my knowledge. I'm posting it anyway...have an apple

      First up,

      "healthcare reform"
      "energy reform"
      "education reform"

      ...and it won't be easy and it won't be quick.

      "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

      by Sybil Liberty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:59:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You forgot one: LABOR! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tricky

        Big organized labor. If card check does not come through with these huge majority of Democrats, Obama will be held responsible. Labor Unions are at a historic low, thanks in large part to Bush/Cheney and the congressional republicans.

        •  I fully agree, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tricky

          but those were Bernie's and Barack's major priority criteria in March '09.

          I believe that Obama making a speech at the Annual Organized Union Labor Day Picnic is every indication that the public option is still very much in.

          And I believe it looks fairly well rosy for organized LABOR! as well. Bless their hearts.

          "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

          by Sybil Liberty on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:29:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Right now (0+ / 0-)

      The tactical advantage belongs to the "Money Party" This consists of ALL Pukes and half the Dems.

      What we need in Coalition is the other half of the Dems and some indies. Voila- a majority.

      "Much law, but little justice": Proverb

      by Dave925 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:58:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  August 2008? (0+ / 0-)
    The show debuted in September. That increase is over the previous show (Dan Abrams's law whatsis).

    “If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution.” — Emma Goldman

    by Jyrinx on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 09:58:30 AM PDT

    •  That looked odd to me to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jyrinx

      so I checked and her show started 9/8/08. I thought it started later than that -- closer to the election (or after, even). I remember her saying that people worried about what would be left to talk about after the election. But she said there is always something to talk about. So true. So true.

      Jennifer

  •  From your keyboard... (3+ / 0-)

    ...to President Obama's Blackberry!

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:06:13 AM PDT

  •  this is amazing especially since (7+ / 0-)

    CNN and Fake News are available on most basic cable and satellite packages, while MSNBC often costs extra

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    I'll have a Markos Marxist Maoist Muslim Moulitsas Mulatto Mojito, please!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:39:45 AM PDT

  •  Please please please MSNBC move Rachel (0+ / 0-)

    to Meet the Press and kick out David Gregory, who is just a media personality, not a policy wonk like Rachel.

    http://debunkerhill.com holding the line against the siege

    by CatM on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 10:46:43 AM PDT

  •  Ed says: Repubs offer nothing to young voters (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Paper Cup, SherriG, greengemini

    Ed Schultz said it perfectly.  Imagine young people and the jobs and salaries they have, with no health insurance, getting married and starting to have children.  What does the Republican Party have to offer them?  Nothing.

    •  It's not what they have to offer (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dave925

      It's what they pretend to offer.  It's awfully hard to see through the facade without a functional MSM and a good education.  The former is virtually non-existant and I'm not so sure about the latter.

      •  That is the damn truth (0+ / 0-)

        Fantasies are perpetuated and lies rule the day.

        A country so mal-informed and beaten down by insecurity can not possibly benefit its citizens- it can only benefit those fabulously wealthy would be aristocrats who hate democracy and believe the nation should only work to their advantage while keeping the rabble in line.

        This is what is happening and is what the Pukes- at least the honchos, have been working for these past several decades. They truly hate and fear the very idea of equality and justice. They honestly believe the rich should rule unimpeded.

        Why anyone sane should believe in such things is beyond me, but this is what big time Pukes want and it is why they lie constantly. They have to. No one would ever vote for them if they were honest about their beliefs and goals.

        "Much law, but little justice": Proverb

        by Dave925 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:56:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Just ask the Young Victim who had (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SherriG

      no Insurance when she was shot by a man who wanted to punish women because he couldn't find a date.

      Gym shooting victim holds car wash (has no health care)

      http://video.aol.co.uk/...

      Yes, by all means, let's talk about the relationship between guns and health insurance. Specifically, how available guns are for sick fucks who want to kill random women as punishment for the perceived sins of all women who have refused to date them. Versus, say, the lack of availability of health insurance for young women who have aged out of their parents' insurance policy and who have the bad luck to be gunned down by sick fucks who want to kill random women as punishment for...etc.

      http://scienceblogs.com/...

  •  My niece is one of the working poor. (4+ / 0-)

    She has a job that pays little and no benefits at all. She didn't think she had anything to worry about since she is only 20 and that we were crazy to be worrying about health care. A couple months ago she developed cellulitis in her face and around her eyes. It was so bad that she had to go to the ER and was told it would  have killed her or done serious harm if she had delayed coming in. She needed immediate IV antibiotics and was given a prescription for more to take at home which would have cost her $300 but the pharmacist called the ER and got them to change it to one that was less than $100, which I paid for her. She now has a couple thousand dollar hospital bill along with a huge bill from the Surgeon that treated her. She has no way of paying this off but sending $25 a week until she is probably retired and old. NOW she understands why we have been fighting for health care for everyone.
    This is criminal and immoral and we must get health care reform passed.

    "Sweet Jesus I hate Hannity"

    by shanti2 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:21:02 AM PDT

  •  MSNBC beat Fox by only 4 percent? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike Peterson

    From the rhetoric I've been seeing here I would have sworn Fox was on its last legs, catering to the older, conservative viewer who's not interested in facts.

    Now we see MSNBC beat Fox in the 18-34 demo by only 4 percent?  Seems to me that's the biggest news in the diary!

    •  Seriously? (0+ / 0-)

      Have you ever looked at the cable news ratings comparisons? It's not a contest at all. It's a race for MSNBC and CNN to keep within somewhat respectable shouting distance of Faux. This is a pretty big deal.

      "Selfishness is the only real atheism; aspiration, unselfishness, the only real religion." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

      by Mike Peterson on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 12:07:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  538.com says Dems/Obama popularity is just fine (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ADAY

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

    "It’s certainly possible that Obama will antagonize the Democratic base by not advocating strongly enough for a public option in his health care proposals. It’s also possible that the drum beat of Republican attacks on everything associated with Obama and the Democrats will continue to drive down Democratic support among Independents. The pendulum tends to swing over time. But for now – looking at actual elections, not polls which can be spun any which way – there’s no hard empirical evidence of significant changes in the electorate’s behavior since November of 2008."

    But let everyone be quick to hear, slow to speak , slow to anger for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

    by dosaybe on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 01:11:17 PM PDT

  •  And here is when I stopped reading (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ilikepie

    Is the White House paying attention to this?

    We are told by the mainstream media that the reason behind Obama's sagging polls is that he is too liberal and that he is losing support among independents because of it. If that were the case, why are 55% of Americans still supporting the public option? Obviously it doesn't add up, and the truth is that, contrary to conventional wisdom, Obama's polls are sagging because he is too corporate and not liberal enough and thus he is losing the support of his base.

    I agree with many of the things you written but once you went negative in presuming to assume you know how President Obama is and will behave, is when I tuned out the remainder of your diary. If we are to believe the Cable Ratings among viewers, which I do, then we can't assume that it is only progressives and liberals who want healthcare reform when the ratings are clearly indicating an inclusion of reform and not just an ideologue one.

  •  My 18 -30 year old students (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Purple Priestess

    don't have health insurance. They're too old to be covered by their parents' insurance, and too young in the workforce to have the kind of jobs that provide health coverage. Plus, as an art professor, the people who graduate from my program often end up working for not-for-profit arts organizations -- poor organizations that don't provide insurance. And although this is a young and healthy group, it just takes an accident or an unexpected illness to f*** them up financially for the rest of their lives. This young adult demographic are totally screwed by the current system.

    This is a theory, but one overlooked consequence of health insurance for all may be an upswing in the arts in communities -- simply because musicians, visual artists, writers, actors, etc., will have a bit more security in taking those low paying arts jobs in order to pursue their creative work. I've been there -- and it is scary to sacrifice health insurance in order to take those important career enhancing positions, such as becoming a director for a community gallery, or whatever.

  •  To bad (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BleacherBum153

    that MSNBC looses viewers every time they let Pat Buchanan show his face.  MSNBC has a Pat Buchanan problem.  Yesterday he wrote a column about Hitler not wanting to go to war.  According to Pat, it was all the allies fault.  MSNBC stupidly put his column on their website.  Which today they had to take down, because of the outcry from Jewish organizations, progressive viewers, etc...

    Before, I would just mute him when he came on Rachel or Chris' show.  But now I refuse to watch any MSNBC show episode  that features Uncle Pat.  I have had enough of his bullshit to last a lifetime.

    MSNBC's base is progressives, they need to worry about losing 'their' base.

    I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak-President Barack Obama schools Ed Henry

    by lpeggy on Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 04:24:11 PM PDT

  •  I am so thankful and grateful that many (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    politicjock

    young people are still tuning in to what is transpiring on the political spectrum.  

    After all, it is THEIR futures that are being impacted by the actions of our leaders today.  They are intelligent and talented enough to begin taking command of their own lives--political awareness and action are important components of taking control of their destinies.

  •  TV rating #s and poll #s are not important. (0+ / 0-)

    What IS important?

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    This Space For Rent

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