Skip to main content

Does anybody at Fox give a damn whether people die because of the fear and paranoia Glenn Beck puts on the air?

On Thursday, I want you to join me for a special show, an hour-long special on the swine flu. I am not going to give you my opinion on the swine flu, I don't think anybody but your doctor should give their opinion on the swine flu. This is for every American to ask themselves, "Am I going to give this injection to my children?"

We're going to have a half-hour of those who say "Absolutely not" -- medical doctors. And then the second-half is "Are you crazy? You must."

You decide. That'll be a special hour Thursday. Honest questions, I don't think are going to be asked or answered anyplace else.

So what do you think the Glenn Beck Show's next gimmick will be?

An hour long special on eating lead paint chips? 30 minutes of pro-paint chips people, and 30 minutes of anti-paint chips people?

Or maybe he'll discuss the pros and cons of putting your hand in the toaster. He can bring in Orly Taitz, foremost expert on hand-toaster interactions, and Michael Scheuer on how Obama's Hitleresque government is trying to take away your freedom to stick your hand in your toaster whenever you want.

So what's your guess? What'll Glenn's next gimmick be?

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:43 AM PDT.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  He's Not Afraid to Say What We're All Thinkin' (18+ / 0-)

    --CNN's old promo line for Beck's show.

    "He's saying everything nobody's thinking" is closer.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:45:10 AM PDT

  •  The F*** America Project continues (16+ / 0-)

    It really has got beyond the pale.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Oh no, the dead have risen and they're voting Republican. - Lisa Simpson

    by LaFeminista on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:45:33 AM PDT

  •  Well, Beck's Looking to Hand Out Darwin Awards (11+ / 0-)

    If he wants to kill off his audience, that's his own stupidity. His audience dying is their own. I would appreciate it if they didn't do that, but what can ya do?

  •  Alan Colmes to represent pro-immunization (9+ / 0-)

    snark

    Republicans - They Hate Us for Our Freedoms

    by mikeconwell on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:46:41 AM PDT

  •  Next gimmick? (5+ / 0-)

    A full-fledged breakdown on live TV. Freud analysed hysterical women. We'll be analysing hysterical talk-show hosts.

    Iuris praecepta sunt haec: Honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. - Ulpian, Digestae 1, 3

    by Dauphin on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:46:54 AM PDT

  •  Debate is legitimate (7+ / 0-)

    Although Glenn Beck is an idiot, and this is obviously a gimmick, there's a legitimate debate to be had regarding the efficacy of H1N1 vaccines (and flu vaccines in general).

    There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated -- NOFX

    by Lupeyg2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:46:56 AM PDT

    •  Err (16+ / 0-)

      no, there isn't.  Just making an assertion -- particularly a manifestly false one -- does not contribute to the discussion.

      •  There isn't a debate because YOU say (4+ / 0-)

        there isn't a debate?  Interesting.  I guess the next time I'm not sure of something I'll just ask you what I should believe.

        President Barack Obama; I helped make this happen!

        by PittsburghPete on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:50:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you want to claim there is a debate (13+ / 0-)

          You need to explain why you think that and what the debate is about.  Influenza vaccines are:

          a) Unquestionably effective.
          b) Produce only mild side effects, mostly a sore arm, occasionally a transitory illness resembling a cold.
          c) There is debate - and the subject is not settled - over whether the swine flu vaccine used during the Ford Administration may have been associated with a very small - approximately 1 in 1 million - elevated risk of a condition called Guillan Barre syndrome.  There has been no similar observation since that time.
          d) There is an insane cult that believes a preservative in some flu vaccines is associated with autism.  This has been conclusively proven false.

          So what are you trying to claim? It's impossible to argue with people who won't even tell you what they are trying to say.

          •  Point A mostly in debate (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pd, PittsburghPete, MPociask

            The efficacy of flu vaccines in preventing the presentation of clinical symptoms is something sorely understudied in randomized clinical trials... and it's something that is difficult to study.  Thus, it is still open for debate.

            There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated -- NOFX

            by Lupeyg2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:05:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  autoimmune illnesses - another debate (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lupeyg2, PittsburghPete, MPociask

            ...there's some debate about the safety of vaccinations for people with some autoimmune illnesses. Two different GPs explained this to me and they were by no means experts on the subject but seem to be presenting their information as general knowledge.  If they have this information I have to believe that this is not some way out there conspiracy theory or paranoia.

            •  Which is why (6+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              trillian, goObama, 714day, hhex65, GN1927, ER Doc

              when you get the seasonal flu vaccine you are supposed to read the flyer that comes out with it, which expressly states that if you have an autoimmune disease you should consult your physician before getting the vaccine.  The H1N1 vaccine was created in the same way as the seasonal vaccine and will undoubtedly be accompanied by the same or a similar flyer.

              Again, no debate.

              We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.

              by Simian on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:31:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  There are always (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hamletta, trillian, 714day, Simian, ER Doc

              going to be populations more vulnerable to complications from vaccines. Good doctors and good patients understand this and make an informed choice about whether or not they should be vaccinated.

              That said, we still tend to underestimate the deadliness of the flu and overestimate the likelihood of complications. Highlighting rare side effects  to a general audience doesn't exactly help.

            •  No live vaccines with some conditions (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hamletta, 714day, ER Doc

              I have rheumatoid arthritis, and because of medications that lower my immune response, my rheumatologist told me I can't get live vaccines ( as in the nasal spray type). Killed vaccines ( as in the flu shot) are fine.

              Good thing we've still got politics in Texas -- finest form of free entertainment ever invented.- Molly Ivins

              by loblolly on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:43:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Autoimmune risk is not debatable. (0+ / 0-)

              There is one as a commenter with RH correctly states.  It still is not a contraindication of all vaccination.

          •  by 'a preservative' (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PittsburghPete, MPociask

            you mean thimerosal, and hence, mercury.  apparently, the National Autism Association doesn't think the matter is settled at all.

            Most media coverage on the vaccine-autism link has been biased with claims that "science" has demonstrated no link between vaccines and autism despite that fact that our Vaccine Court has ruled in cases since 1991 and the government has conceded an unknown number of secret settlements that vaccines can cause autism. These inaccurate claims are often made by those with vested and seldom disclosed interests in protecting the vaccine schedule from meaningful scientific scrutiny. The autism community is not alone in raising concerns about vaccine safety. More and more scientists and public figures are calling for a radically redesigned vaccine safety system. Continued bias in reporting on vaccine safety issues is likely to fuel growing distrust of the vaccine program especially since vaccine-caused disorders now far exceed the incidence of vaccine-preventable disease. The media have an ethical obligation to inform the public on what we know and don’t know about vaccine safety, so that they can in turn exercise informed choice and demand of government and industry the safest possible vaccine schedule.

            and recently, a team from the University of Pittsburgh published a study titled Delayed Acquisition of Neonatal Reflexes in newborn Primates receiving A Thimerosal-containing HepatitiS B Vaccine in the journal Neurotoxicology.
            The study found:

            -- Thirteen newborn rhesus macaques were given a Hepatitis B vaccine containing a standardized dose of thimerosal adjusted for their weight, four received a saline placebo, and three were not given any shots.

            -- Vaccinated animals experienced a significant delay in the acquisition of three survival reflexes compared to unvaccinated animals. Root, snout, and suck reflexes, critical to animal survival in the wild, were delayed in the vaccinated macaques.

            -- These reflexes are controlled by the brainstem, a vital part of the brain that regulates automatic functions such as breathing, heart rate, and intestinal activity.v -- Neonatal responses in unvaccinated control animals were not delayed.

            -- The delay in acquisition of three of the four survival reflexes was not contingent on birth weight or gestational age.

            personally, i have no idea.  seems clear, though, that there's a debate, particularly among parents of autistic children.  to dismiss these people as "an insane cult" seems a bit much.

            •  No, there is no debate (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nightsweat, ER Doc, ViralDem

              No scientific debate whatsoever.  These people are the equivalent of holocaust deniers or birthers.  No amount of facts or reason can possibly persuade them.  That is what I call an insane cult.

            •  Oh yeah (0+ / 0-)

              vaccines are not given to newborns.

            •  They sound all big and important (0+ / 0-)

              Because they have "National" in their name. Yet when ABC did a story and linked to Autism groups that group was not in the list - http://abcnews.go.com/...

              I don't know which are the most credible of the bunch, but I do know thatKennedy-krieger, who ABC did link to are extremely well respected and affiliated with Johns Hopkins.

              OK, so we're up by 21, there's 34 seconds left in the 4th and we have the ball. I say we forfeit. - Coach Baucus

              by nightsweat on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:28:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ok, just picking at random the list (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MPociask

                the Autism Society of America states:

                The Autism Society strongly believes that:

                  1. Vaccines administered to children, teens and adults must be safe;
                  2. More unbiased and credible research needs to be done to:
                        1. ensure and optimize safety,
                        2. identify those who are at higher risk of injury and develop and implement appropriate accommodations for them,
                        3. avoid injury altogether, and
                        4. prevent unnecessary overexposure;
                  3. All those who are vaccine injured need to be justly compensated;
                  4. Development and availability of treatment for injuries from environmental factors, including but not limited to vaccines, needs to be prioritized.

                are these more members of an insane cult?  if they believe more credible and unbiased research needs to be done, then they clearly believe that existing research is insufficient, and hence, that the issue is still unresolved.

                •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                  They believe

                  1. Vaccines administered to children, teens and adults must be safe;

                  and because it hasn't been proven that vaccines are safe (in other words, doesn't cause autism) they advise

                  1. avoid injury altogether, and
                  1. preven unnecessary overexposure;

                  which means don't get vaccinated.

                  Something tells me they will never be convinced that vaccines are "safe" enough to be administered.

            •  Apples and oranges (0+ / 0-)

              Why bring autism and the purported link between it and mercury in routine infant immunization into a discussion about healthy children and adults receiving seasonal flu vaccines?

              The amount of mercury in the flu vax is about the same as in a can of tuna. Countless products on the grocery shelves contain more mercury than a dose of flu vaccine. Moreover, thimerosal-free versions are available for pregnant women and others who need to limit mercury exposure.

              And the commenter below is correct--the National Autism Association is not like the American Cancer Society. It is tied to Andrew Wakefield, the UK doctor who allegedly faked MMR study results to bolster the autism-MMR link.

      •  I agree about the assertions (0+ / 0-)

        and note your tactic in this response.

        There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated -- NOFX

        by Lupeyg2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:51:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The problem is that (0+ / 0-)

      The problem is that as soon as someone like Beck airs it, most people will ignore it because of the source. Assuming it's anything like accurate, which i doubt.

      "Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success."

      by QuestionAuthority on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:48:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  efficacy... (9+ / 0-)

      Maybe if I squint really hard.  But he is going to fill his first half-hour with a bunch of scary declarations that the vaccine is nothing more than a drug which will make everyone worship Obama.  This is not a debate panel on science - its superstition vs. science.

      "Barack Obama stripped millions of Americans of their right to not have a black President." - Tim F. on Balloon Juice

      by RichM on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:50:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RichM, Lindmere

        He can throw in some vaccine related artwork that proves Obama is a communist.

      •  Scientists and researchers should know better (0+ / 0-)

        I hope none of them are foolish enough to rise to Beck's bait. Just as in creationism/science "debates," these programs do more harm than good by promoting a false equivalency between evidence-based science and wild, conspiratorial assertions. In my opinion, the good that can be done by reaching the handful of people in the audience who might truly be open to different opinions is outweighed by the harm done by conferring legitimacy on the wingnuts.

    •  That Has So Little to Do With Beck That It's (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      714day, GN1927, mungley, PsychoSavannah, ER Doc

      virtually a change in topic. Nothing about Beck's show has anything to do with issues or debate. Even if he would correctly state the time on his clock, he's still completely useless as a source of facts or discussion about anything in reality.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:58:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's this very subject that made me realize (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MPociask

      DKos while probably one of the best resources out there for truth, still has it's hang-ups. Any discussion of the swine flu vaccine is shut down immediately.  How much sense does that make?

      •  Well its a matter of context of debate (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        714day, GN1927, mungley, ER Doc, ryan81

        I suppose dKos does have a major hang up about scientific fact do to many who are involved in research and medicine.

        There isn't really any legitimate points of debate as to the efficacy of the H1N1 vaccine.  Its just the standard seasonal vaccine that has been used for several years with an inactivated H1N1 strain rather than the trivalent seasonal strains.

        The debate I've seen has been in the policy implementation of mandating to HCWs in NYC.  That was discussed nicely by DemFromCT over the weekend I believe.

        "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

        by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:12:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It makes loads of sense (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Raven, ER Doc

        And that's because there's a large cadre of people who are reflexively and ignorantly anti-vaccine. They're not interested in reasoned debate and are instead lean on base fear-mongering in a way that seriously imperils public health.

        It's a lot like the climate change "debate." There are reasonable debates to be had about the causes and consequences of climate change, but the vast majority of people who want to 'debate' climate change simply want to deny it. There's no debate involved and engaging with them simply gives them a platform to spew their ignorant bile.

        •  Or the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ER Doc, ryan81

          evolution "debate."  I refuse to have an argument with a creationist, because someone who believes that cannot be reasoned with, and therefore the debate is pointless.

          I used to be an angry young man. Now I'm just a bitter old fart!- Bulldawg

          by Bulldawg on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:38:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  There's nothing to debate that concerns the point (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hhex65, The Raven

        of this community.

        Vaccination is a medical procedure that you should discuss with your doctor. If there are potential side effects, then that should be discussed with your doctor too.

        "Debating" the efficacy of vaccination is like "debating" astronomy.  It works, it's real, and there's no value in denying that.

        "Won't you try just a little bit harder? Couldn't you try just a little bit more?" - R. Hunter

        by mungley on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:43:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Efficacy of vaccination (0+ / 0-)

          is not black and white.  It's very much depends on what you're being vaccinated against.  Flu vaccines are not Polio vaccines are not MMRs.  If they were, we would all go get our once in a lifetime dose of flu vaccine and we could then claim this debate moot.

          There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated -- NOFX

          by Lupeyg2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:50:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The flu is different every year. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Raven, ER Doc

            You are immune to "last year's" flu once you are vaccinated.

            Once you fight it on your own you are immune to it too.

            "Won't you try just a little bit harder? Couldn't you try just a little bit more?" - R. Hunter

            by mungley on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:59:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

              So what do we know about natural versus vaccine-mediated immunity against more rapidly mutating viruses?  The answer is increasingly more, but still not much.

              There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated -- NOFX

              by Lupeyg2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:25:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Some people don't have doctors, Mungley. (0+ / 0-)

          But the local pharmacy gives flu shots.

          •  Daily Kos is not the place to get advice in that (0+ / 0-)

            case.

            "Debating" the use or non use of the flu vaccine is beyond the scope of this website. That's why "debate" on that subject is discouraged.

            Your pharmacist will gladly discuss the potential risks of the shot and if it's a good idea to have one at this time. Markos Moulitsas Zúniga is not the best source for that information.

            "Won't you try just a little bit harder? Couldn't you try just a little bit more?" - R. Hunter

            by mungley on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:09:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  no (0+ / 0-)

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:10:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hmmm, debate (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      goObama, ER Doc

      Next on Glenn Beck, we'll have half an hour of experts claiming the moon landing was faked and half an hour of those claiming it took place.

      Hey, it's debate! There's controversy!

      We could do the same with a panel of scientists who think evolution is valid and a panel that thinks we should learn all our science from the Book of Genesis.  

      Just because not everyone agrees on a topic doesn't mean that both sides are equally valid, and giving half an hour to each "side" implies just that. It elevates a minority opinion while allowing the presenter to pose as if they're being impartial.

    •  I was a young child when the Salk and Sabin (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hamletta, hhex65, GN1927, ER Doc, ebohlman

      polio vaccines were administered at schools across the nation.  I remember there were naysayers back then who claimed it was a "communist plot" to kill all Americans.  My parents and others who learned that the vaccines were necessary and effective and safe, took their children to school sites en masse to protect the children from that horrible disease.  The reason is that they knew what polio had done to so many children.  My generation was polio free.  And now you have these flat-earthers who know only the faith based, andti-government nonsense perpetrated by those such as Beck, and Bachman and Palin and the other idiots howling at the moon from the right.  They refuse to learn.  They are ignorant people, all of them.

  •  Glenn Beck vs. Glenn Beck (4+ / 0-)
    30 Min of people who think he is a great newsman vs. 30 Min of people who think he is a great commentator.
  •  Let me know when he douses himself with (8+ / 0-)

    gasoline and lights a match.

  •  Gee, this sounds like "a very special episode." (6+ / 0-)

    Pity Beck jumped the shark on day one.

    The Republican brand: "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich"

    by D in Northern Virginia on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:47:06 AM PDT

  •  How about... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scrapyard Ape, OtterQueen

    ...Orly Taitz vs. all of Michael Vick's pit bulls?

    Live in 3-D and living color!

    "Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success."

    by QuestionAuthority on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:47:08 AM PDT

  •  OK OK, enough already (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Duke S, Scrapyard Ape

    Everyone knows that man is a clown.

  •  Is anyone really surprised that Fox would (8+ / 0-)

    go so low as to try to kill their own audience?

    I'm not.

    •  Great point. (0+ / 0-)

      Think of the boost in medical costs and the sale of drugs to battle h1ni. (all of his advertisers are insurance companies and pharma manufacturers for some reason now)

      "Won't you try just a little bit harder? Couldn't you try just a little bit more?" - R. Hunter

      by mungley on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:37:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  He's not aligning with the anti-vaccine people? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pd, GN1927, mungley, OtterQueen

    Is he?

  •  Um... (8+ / 0-)

    Does anybody at Fox give a damn whether people die because of the fear and paranoia Glenn Beck puts on the air?

    Probably not...

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:47:54 AM PDT

  •  Fair and Balanced... (4+ / 0-)

    Means balancing pesky facts with good-for-you advice - or balancing facts against lies.

    "Barack Obama stripped millions of Americans of their right to not have a black President." - Tim F. on Balloon Juice

    by RichM on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:48:00 AM PDT

  •  I hope this dumbfuck gets the flu. (8+ / 0-)

    I want to see another video of him lying on his couch crying about how sick he is.

  •  Tactical nuclear weapons in schools; pro/con. (6+ / 0-)
  •  No one hates Mr. Beck more than me, (3+ / 0-)

    but this doesn't sound like an off-the-wall idea.  As long as he doesn't mock either side of the discussion and lets each side make it's case, what's the harm?

    President Barack Obama; I helped make this happen!

    by PittsburghPete on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:49:00 AM PDT

    •  because coins have two sides... (12+ / 0-)

      ...but debates don't.

      you wouldn't have a 30 minute pro and con with the birthers, right? same here. this isn't a medically controversial issue.

      there are arguments against mandatory vaccination, but those generally have to do with the efficacy of mandatory vaccination versus a strong voluntary program. the theory there is that making vaccination mandatory creates a backlash which can do mor eharm than good ultimately.

      Watch political video at Daily Kos TV | Twitter: @jedlewison

      by Jed Lewison on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:55:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not true. (4+ / 0-)

        An untested vaccine is an untested vaccine. It's mind-bogglingly stupid to give an untested vaccine to a group that isn't at high-risk or interacts with folks who are at high-risk.

        The fact that it's not "controversial" to your average pediatrician or gp means nothing other than that they haven't thought it through.

        Giving this to asthmatic kids or nurses makes sense; giving this to a healthy teenager is stupid. There's a known small swine-flu threat for healthy young people; the threat of the vaccine can not be known until it has been given to a large cohort -- which hasn't been done.

        This is just science 101.

        •  Untested? (15+ / 0-)

          Where is the basis for such an assertion?

          The H1N1 vaccine is tested and safe.  Its the safe vaccine as the seasonal one - just a different inactive strain.  Its been determined to need only one boost for immunization.  A great deal of research has been done.

          Its not like someone made it in their sink.

          And young people under the age of 30 are actually the highest risk group with this strain.  Those born before 1957 seem to have immuno-protection from the H1N1 strains circulating in the 50s.

          "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

          by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:16:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The basis is your statement! (0+ / 0-)

            "just a different inactive strain".

            It's a different strain, which means that it has had limited testing. It's not possible for it to have had extensive testing, since it's a new strain! Sufficient quantities have only existed for the last month for there to have been extensive testing!

            This is the kind of scientific ignorance (often shown by scientists) which is mind-bogglingly. You're talking about a complex system, and then you call a month of testing "extensive".

            That's not extensive for a piece of software -- you can't get that approved for a patch to military software with only a month of testing. Yet you imagine that a month is sufficient to have good knowledge of systemic interactions of a particular viral fragment with an organism.

            Breath-taking. Mind-boggling. Yet all too common.

            •  You have no idea what you are talking about (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              EquationDoc

              Ive further addressed you downthread.

              It is clear you know nothing of the molecular biology of flu antigen presentation nor the current body of decades of research that have contributed to that understanding.  Nor the years of epidemiological studies of flu strains and population circulations.

              Extensive research that have provided flu researchers with a solid basis of understanding that have led to well established protocols of recognizing new strains and incorporating new data into existing hypotheses to create new vaccinations based on previous successes.  A process with fully accounts for past observations and rigorous testing to minimize risk and increase success.

              "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

              by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:15:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Dead wrong. It lends legitimacy to lunacy. (11+ / 0-)

      Any time you present "both sides" of a false controversy between sanity and lunacy, it's all pain and no gain.

      For example: we know to a certainty that immunizing kids against potentially lethal infections like measles and diptheria saves hundreds if not thousands of lives every year. Yet any time you have notional "experts" on television making superficially reasonable arguments against immunization, childhood immunization rates drop because some terrified parents are convinced by the nonsensical arguments.

      My favorite example of this kind of bullshit:
      back in the Reagan years, four American-born nuns in El Salvador were raped and murdered by members of the Salvadoran military, their bodies dumped in shallow graves. The potential damage to Reagan's Latin American adventure was obvious, because this shamed "our valued allies" the Salvadoran military. So the utterly craven and despicable Alexander Hague held a press conference. At this press event Hague (may he burn in Hell) suggested that information was still "controversial" and "incomplete", but that there may have been "an exchange of fire" and the nuns were killed in the crossfire. The clear and utterly malignant implication was that the nuns were somehow allied with rebels and got themselves killed. This grotesque lie orbited in the proto-wingnutosphere for weeks before it was finally and thoroughly debunked. It delayed and weakened the impact of eventual recognition of the truth: our "valued allies" the Salvadoran military had abducted, raped, and murdered American nuns.
      Oopsies.

      •  This is not about the "anti-vaxxers" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RethinkEverything

        who are imbeciles. The standard vaccines are well-tested across a broad cohort giving a well-understood risk, to protect against diseases with well understood risks.

        The swine-flu vaccine is a new vaccine against an unknown risk. It is not at all insane to be wary of applying it, particularly for healthy folks with no condition suggesting particular susceptibility.

        You can't use insane people as an argument against sane arguments. This is like smearing atheists with the old "well, Stalin was an atheist" gimmick.

        •  Correction (14+ / 0-)

          The swine-flu vaccine is a new vaccine against an unknown risk.

          Absolutely not true.  The H1N1 vaccine is th same vaccine formula as the standard seasonal vaccine used over the past several years.

          Had the H1N1 been found sooner it would have been included in the seasonal vaccine as a tri- or quad-valent vaccine.

          As it was the seasonal was already in production and the H1N1 strain was made into a new production using the same formula.

          Nothing "new" and "unknown" about this vaccine.

          "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

          by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:22:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Correct - there is no "debate" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc

            It is certainly possible to discuss the pros and cons of vaccination, but that's not what Beck will be doing. In any event, questions of medical science are not generally debated in the public arena, and concluded with the observation that, "OK, folks. You got two opinions on the matter, now YOU decide!"

            Rather, we expect that the CDC will study the situation and make the best possible recommendation.

            Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

            by The Raven on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:14:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry, that's stupid. (0+ / 0-)

            The vaccine includes an new viral fragment. That makes it a new vaccine in terms of risk. The important element of the vaccine is the antigen -- not the vehicle (which has it's own risks -- but those are well known in isolation).

            Viral fragment A + immune system != Viral fragment B + immune system.

            If you think the risk is "known" -- then you don't know what the word "known" means. Which only gives support to the anti-vaxxers -- because when they see such a basic error in risk assessment, they infer that all risk assessment is so poor -- which is certainly not the case.

            •  The normal seasonal influenza vaccine carries (5+ / 0-)

              three "new viral fragments" every year. There's no difference. What the vaccine makers have done is a massive effort to increase their production capability, so that they could make an extra flu vaccine this year, aimed at the novel H1N1, in addition to the usual trivalent seasonal vaccine. It's the same process as every year, just with an  additional influenza antigen. There is no different risk from the usual flu shot.

              -5.12, -5.23

              We are men of action; lies do not become us.

              by ER Doc on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:34:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Lordy -- it's like talking to walls. (0+ / 0-)

                Yes, every year this is a problem -- every year folks are being given vaccines that haven't been extensively tested.

                This year is particularly problematic because the window for testing has only been a month or so.

                Yes, people are being given a poorly tested antigen every year. That makes sense for folks who have a known high-risk, or who treat individuals with a known high-risk. It makes no sense for healthy individuals who are not treating and dealing with sick individuals.

                My god, it's like no one knows what a poorly ascertained risk is. It's stupid commentary like that which gives the anti-vaxxers ammunition -- if this is the kind of argument they get, they can only assume that other vaccines are treated the same way.

                Which is not true, of course. But for the ignorant, one kind of ignorance implies wide-spread ignorance.

                Oh, for want of a little decent science...

                •  Give me a break (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ER Doc, Ralphdog

                  Yes for want of a little decent science indeed.

                  Its clear you do not understand the science of viral epidemiology, antigen presentation, and the production of vaccines.

                  The development of seasonal flu vaccines has been with us for quite some time.  Extensive research has been done.  The risk assessment has been calculated with a mind to the scientific basis of the flu epidemiology and molecular biology.

                  You're establishing a non sequitur argument based on an insurmountable threshold to minimize medical risk.  One that has no basis in sound scientific assessment of the epidemiology of the flu strain being inoculated against and the respective population.

                  I do not understand what your point is - and what your suggestion is to alleviate your nonsensical concerns.  Do nothing?  Spend millions on risk assessment of this particular vaccine and just wait the season out.

                  Then when we have the results of the study next season... throw them out!  Because now we have new strains (not to mention increased circulation and illness) that will require a new set of useless studies of risk!

                  "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

                  by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:09:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You can't do the risk assessment on an unknown. (0+ / 0-)

                    You do a risk assessment on a known stochastic process. Apparently, the basic principles of probability have just flown by you -- it's terribly common in biology. It doesn't matter how many centuries of experience you have -- you don't know the underlying probability distribution for an unknown -- you can't.

                    The question about what is to be done is a separate question -- we often do have to act in ignorance. So you have to act conservatively -- don't immunize healthy folks who aren't in contact with at risk people with a vaccine which may or may not be closely related enough to the actual flu to do any good, running an unknown risk.

                    Some things in life are tough an unknowable. Sometimes there isn't much you can do. It seems reasonable to vaccinate folks with known high risks, and to vaccinate their direct care givers; but unreasonable to vaccinate the public at large.

                    Folks get the flu. Some die. That's life.

                    •  You again wollow in your ignorance (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RandomActsOfReason

                      Folks get the flu. Some die. That's life.

                      Yeah and they circulate the virus which can infect those who got the vaccine but were not protected - or its increased circulation increases its ability to mutate.

                      Congrats you just made the problem worse by not understanding what youre talking about.

                      Its common for us in biology to actually think before we speak.

                      Its not an unknown.  We know what the flu genome looks like, how it works, what its sequence is, and what the different HN strains do in different interactions.  We have a basis of scientific knowledge to infer epidemiology and risk assessment.

                      "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

                      by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:40:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No -- it's terribly uncommon for biologists (0+ / 0-)

                        to think before they speak. Speaking as a biologist, most biologists know diddly-squat about statistics -- most biologists are functionally innumerate.

                        Do you think that vaccinating 40% of 5% of the world's population is going to change the variability in the flu population? That's just breath-taking. How many of these strains develop in the small group of folks you're talking about vaccinating? Oh, let's see -- H1N1 blew up out of rural Mexico, has had a season to develop in S. America, is going to be circulating through the Chinese and Indian populations, and you have the temerity to suggest that the variability of the strain in the US will even slightly be affected by the rate of vaccination here? That's ignoring the pig populations involved and their locations!

                        My God -- you're blindness to scales is amazing.

                        And this is particularly stupid:
                        "We know what the flu genome looks like, how it works, what its sequence is, and what the different HN strains do in different interactions. "

                        So now you can go from a genome to predicting to a high degree of accuracy the interaction between variable flu genomes, phenotypes and the human ecosystem? The arrogance is astounding.

                        No -- we can't predict a hurricane a month out, and yet you pretend that the underlying mathematics is simpler for variation in an ecosystem of that magnitude. I guess you can now predict evolution? If you can do the former, you'd have to be able to do the latter. Please, I'm interested to hear the structure of the human genome in a million years -- it's actually a much simpler problem than the one you've claimed is solved.

                        We can't predict simple protein foldings -- the simulations that claim to do so are a plain scam; but you probably believe them!

                •  Also on herd immunity (0+ / 0-)

                  That makes sense for folks who have a known high-risk, or who treat individuals with a known high-risk. It makes no sense for healthy individuals who are not treating and dealing with sick individuals.

                  This quote shows complete ignorance of the purpose and effectiveness of vaccines.  Nor do you know how they work.

                  Please read up on "herd immunity" and how vaccines function in a population before responding.

                  "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

                  by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:22:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're just an dogmatic ass. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ralphdog

                    Herd immunity for the flu? That's asinine. This isn't the measle or polio, a slow evolving organism where the vaccine gives a long-term immunity from most variations -- and most variations are known -- and where the risks due to infection are well-known and high.

                    This is the god-damned flu! Even high-valency shots often miss the years flu, while guaranteeing a bonus immune response from folks who may already have overactive immune systems just to avoid (for most of them) a mild flu.

                    You'll never get the necessary 90% coverage to actually get a "herd immunity" -- you can't get it among medical staff! They have to threaten folks with dismissal to get 60-70%, which is insufficient.

                    I hope you don't work in this field with such shallow thinking. In this case, the best you can do is try to build focused firewalls -- not an impossible "herd immunity".

                    •  Awesome! (0+ / 0-)

                      So what is your fricking point with all this "unknown" and "dont get the vaccine" garbage?

                      Youre propagating unnecessary confusion on this topic that is undermining a well established public health strategy.

                      "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin." - Charles Darwin

                      by ViralDem on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:44:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The well established health strategy (0+ / 0-)

                        is to vaccinate against polio, measles and the like. Vaccinations that give a lifelong immunity against viruses with low variability with simple epidemiologies.

                        By conflating flu vaccines with polio vaccines, you folks are the ones undermining vaccinations in general. By multiplying vaccinations without ends into diseases where they are only marginally effective you lead people to infer that "well, they shot me for the flu and I got it; so why should I vaccinate my kid against TB"?

                        By using a simple-minded strategy that papers over the reality and treats people as stupid little robots, you are increasing the probability they will completely reject the strategy even when it's 100% on the money.

                        Instead of taking a conservative strategy (the natural strategy in medicine), you spout dogma as fact and then are surprised when people think that the facts are mere dogmas.

                    •  You are wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                      In several places, but let's just focus on herd immunity and flu.

                      This peer-reviewed article shows that vaccinating children had a beneficial effect on community health.

                      The Japanese Experience with Vaccinating Schoolchildren against Influenza

                      Vaccinating schoolchildren against influenza provides protection and reduces mortality from influenza among older persons.

                      Kthxbai.

                      Earns no money here for blogging, commenting, or driving traffic to any web site.

                      by mem from somerville on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 03:57:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Did you read the paper? (0+ / 0-)

                        Their conclusion is that the effect of vaccinating school-children is comparable to vaccinating the at-risk population.

                        That tells me that the effect of "herd immunity" at it's strongest is no greater than direct treatment of the directly at risk for the flu in particular -- and that's in a country where it's even conceivable to get 85% compliance.

                        It wasn't "community" health, it was excess mortality primarily focused in one subcategory. You really need to read your papers more carefully -- we'd rip you up at our journal club if you tried to make that leap.

                        And of course we don't know what other changes within Japan and between the US and Japan happened in this period -- obviously, some political changes occurred in 87-94 leading to the end of mandatory vaccination. Correlation is not causation, remember.

                        And of course, this doesn't speak to any unknown excess mortality due to the vaccinations -- that would be almost impossible to directly uncover, particular if it varies from seasonal vaccination to seasonal vaccination.

                        We also see that by their measure -- full vaccination lead to a fall in Japanese "excess p&i deaths" from 14/100,000 to 4/100,000 -- which brought them directly into line with US rates!

                        Obviously, we have some bigger fish to fry here than vaccination rates. US rates have the same trends as the Japanese over the same period -- it's just that they're only falling from 7 to 3.

                        So now we're comparing a 70% drop to a 60% drop -- seems less and less impressive as we walk through it. Then you get to figure 4 -- the supposed coup de grace. I just don't see it at all -- the supposedly "obvious" correlation between vaccine dosage and excess deaths just isn't there. The Japanese rates fell just as sharply before mass vaccinations as afterwards -- US excess deaths are basically stable betwwen the start of mass vaccinations in 64 and a 6-fold increase in the late 90's.

                        As usual, folks jumping to conclusions on insufficient evidence. Folks not relying on the old "it's suggestive" but instead take it as a done deal, half reading papers in a daze of concensus.

                        On the other hand, you at least tried to present evidence -- as opposed to the "everyone knows it's good folks".

                •  So you are suggesting that the influenza vaccine (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Ralphdog

                  should never be released for general use, because it can't be adequately tested in time for it to be useful? The vast majority of scientists working in the field disagree...

                  -5.12, -5.23

                  We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                  by ER Doc on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:24:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So what? (0+ / 0-)

                    The vast majority of scientists, like the vast majority of any field, are fairly thoughtless about such issues. They don't think about issues of knowability -- they ignore their own ignorance in order to plod on. They may know how to make vaccines without being experts (or even terribly aware) of the epidemiology; or they may know the epidemiology, without care or thinking about the true causes of concomitant mortality. And almost everyone conflates stochastic with unknown, and think they can treat them the same way.

                    On the other hand, there are epidemiologists who will tell you that you're much better off vaccinating at-risk people against secondary infections, instead of trying to stop the flu, since most flu mortalities are due to the secondary infections.

                    So, no -- you'd have to give me terribly powerful positive evidence to convince me that healthy people under 80 should, in general, be given flu vaccines as a regular, seasonal treatment. I don't see how you could even get the data -- it would take longitudinal studies over decades between controlled populations that, for any random flu vaccine over an extended period of time, mortalities due to the flu are lower in the healthy population after vaccination than in the unvaccinated population, including low probability long-term effects of yearly flu shots over a life-time.

                    Those studies have not been done -- I couldn't find a damn thing on pubmed -- they are extremely difficult and expensive. Without them, claims of knowledge are just claims made in ignorance, and apeear to just be "concensus" without a scientific basis.

                  •  Here's a paper for 'ya: (0+ / 0-)

                    Influenza vaccine effectiveness among children 6 to 59 months of age during 2 influenza seasons: a case-cohort study.  Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2008 Oct;162(10):943-51.

                    Two year study on 2-5 year olds -- surprise, surprise, no significant effect on influenza-related inpatient or outpatient visits!

                    It's just two years ago that they could eliminate flu vaccines from interacting with warfarin treatment for example -- the list of unknowns is massive! And almost no papers on longitudinal studies of influenza vaccination over more than two years.

                    On top of that you have at least suggestive risks -- there are papers suggesting that pre-natal influenza leads to increased risk of schizophrenia. Would this be triggered by a vaccine? Is it just a population effect -- sick communities have more of all kinds of illnesses? Would vaccinations be protective?

                    We don't know. We don't know. When in ignorance, don't just shoot off half-cocked.

        •  What viraldem said. (8+ / 0-)

          Wrong on both counts.

          1. It's not a "new" vaccine. It's as 'standard' as any vaccine we make. It's produced on the same assembly line as the standard seasonal vaccine by the same companies using the same methods we've used for decades. It would have been one of the three strains covered by this year's seasonal vaccine if it had appeared two months earlier, but it arrived just too late to be included when the program had to commit for vaccine to be ready for the flu season.
          1. It's not an unknown risk. Healthy young adults were already dying of this H1N1 influenza in Mexico back in March. About a million Americans have been infected so far, and it's widespread across the Southeast in particular. One of my 91 year old patients is dying of this infection as we speak.
          •  The risk of HIN1 is still unknown, (0+ / 0-)

            given that we still don't even know it's prevalence in the US. There has been no widespread testing in the US for H1N1 testing. The epidemiologists have been following it with googleflu! In certain regions, I'd be willing to bet we've all already had it; take for example S. Florida, which is in heavy contact with Chile & Argentina where the flu season has already passed -- it would be shocking if, given the amount of travel between the regions, H1N1 hadn't already gone through the population there.

            It's a standard vaccine -- for a new antigen! How can you possibly miss the obvious -- that the interaction of a given viral fragment with an immune system is unique and gives you unknown risk, every time you change it.

            Of course, that's generally the problem for yearly flu, compounded this year by the short lead time. Which is why it's foolish for folks to shoot themselves up with the yearly flu vaccine if they're not in a high-risk group or have an occupational duty to their patients.

            The ignorance boggles the mind.

            •  "The ignorance boggles the mind"-indeed; but... (0+ / 0-)

              not the way you intend.

              1. "still don't even know it's (sp) prevalence in the US"- um, not exactly. There are actually pretty good estimates of its prevalence derived from surveillance, submitted samples and mathematical models. It's (note the correct use of the contraction, versus your incorrect use of the possessive form) currently widespread throughout the southeastern U.S., and quite prevalent in colleges in my part of the world. The best source for updates would be the CDC's weekly report.
              1. "How can you possibly miss the obvious"- your tedious teleological insistence that all risks are utterly new, unique and different each time we employ a modest change in viral antigen to match the prevailing influenza strain is perhaps true in the narrowest possible sense, but completely misleading. This is as predictable and low risk as anything ever gets with biological systems.
              1. To argue that it's "foolish" to get yearly influenza vaccine unless you're in a high risk group does indeed display a certain kind of ignorance. Sort of the Glen Beck kind. There are existing population based studies (one well known out of Canada circa 2002) demonstrating a significant drop in absenteeism at work when low risk well adults are immunized against seasonal influenza. In a given flu season, up to 20% of susceptible adults will be infected with resulting misery and lost productivity. "Foolish" is not how I would describe avoiding this unnecessary risk.

              Believe it or not, there are actual experts in the fields of epidemiology and infectious disease working for the CDC and WHO who know this stuff backwards and forwards, and are involved in formulating policy guidelines. I spoke with one of the CDC gurus personally last week. They're not technicians or hobbyists; they're actual real live scientists with knowledge in the relevant disciplines. Some things really are best left to professionals.

              •  Another worthless ass... (0+ / 0-)

                You can always tell when folks start correcting minor typos as if they had discovered a major logical failure -- it's almost a guarantee of substanceless claims to authority.

                Such empty statements as "This is as predictable and low risk as anything ever gets with biological systems." Very little is low risk in biology -- only the most tediously blind would fail to recognize the inherent unpredictably of signalling systems. This is why so much of biology is an extremely expensive recapitulation of what was already known 50 years ago. Ask an engineer how difficult it is to determine the effects of a random change in a simple amplifier.

                Randomly change a few bits in a computer program. The ignorance of the field outside of their tiny technical disciplines is breathtaking.

                "To argue that it's "foolish" to get yearly influenza vaccine unless you're in a high risk group does indeed display a certain kind of ignorance. Sort of the Glen Beck kind. There are existing population based studies (one well known out of Canada circa 2002) demonstrating a significant drop in absenteeism at work when low risk well adults are immunized against seasonal influenza."

                Oh no -- folks might miss a few days of work! Some of us might consider that this is a healthy response, and not positive evidence of efficacy. It goes completely around the point, by focusing on "lost productivity" -- personally, yes, I'd consider trading a bit of productivity for unknown risks to be not just foolish, but incredibly stupid. And I'd have to say that reducing the argument to "productivity" is a good cue at where this is all coming from.

                "they're actual real live scientists with knowledge in the relevant disciplines. Some things really are best left to professionals."

                All I can say is that the more I work in biology, the more I lose respect for the field -- the folks who seem to say anything of substance are the ones who came in out of physics, or engineering, or psychology. An unfortunate mass of of biologists think like technicians (it's how we train 'em nowadays) -- they lack the education to understand the inevitable depth of ignorance that we have of these kinds of systems.

        •  Every influenza vaccine is a new vaccine. (0+ / 0-)

          The formula must be adjusted every single flue season.

          The anti-science crowd begins to really annoy me.

          I've always wanted to be somebody, but I see now I should have been more specific. -- Lily Tomlin

          by leolabeth on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:21:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes -- it's a problem every year. (0+ / 0-)

            Worse this year because of the short lead time.

            Meaning a risk that isn't well known every year, but even larger this year.

            The anti-science does annoy me -- particularly those in science who apparently don't know what the word "risk" and "known" mean, thereby giving cover to folks who are ideologically anti-science by being examples of Bad Science.

      •  Alexander Haig (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GN1927

        Just to clear the decks. I own no monkeys.

        by Misterpuff on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:20:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  like the massacre at el mozote n/t (0+ / 0-)

        Good thing we've still got politics in Texas -- finest form of free entertainment ever invented.- Molly Ivins

        by loblolly on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:47:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  He's juxtaposing science vs. crazy conspiracy (4+ / 0-)

      nonsense -

      what's the harm?

      and lots of confused, single-sourced news  people (and their kids) could get pretty sick as a result.

    •  Uh huh (0+ / 0-)

      Like he's REALLY going to give the pro-rational side a voice.  Probably pull a BillO and shut off the mic if it gets too "heated"

    •  as long as he doesn't mock (0+ / 0-)

      do you really think he gives a shit about anything put exploiting this issue for ratings and his political POV?

      if Ted Kopple was hosting this show, I'd say your right. but Glen Beck will be.

    •  All will be revealed (0+ / 0-)

      just how nutty it is, why would a sane person talk to Beck?

      Oh no, the dead have risen and they're voting Republican. - Lisa Simpson

      by LaFeminista on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:17:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Time for a Beckout a Beckhole a Beckless netroots (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bulldawg, PsychoSavannah, RockyLabor

    Beck is getting way too much attention. It might be good to call for a nationwide Beckout in the netroots and progressive media. Our outrage only fuels his insanity.

    Let's put more energy into exposing the real outrages of the Corporate Welfare Culture. They are using Beck and company to distract everyone from what is going on behind the curtain.

    We need more and better Democrats and Campaign Finance Reform.

    by Duke S on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:49:00 AM PDT

  •  I can just see him in the late 1700s (8+ / 0-)

    Pestering Edward Jenner. "Are you crazy? You're not poking my children with your cow boil drippings!"

  •  It's kind of sad (3+ / 0-)

    that right under this story, there's an ad for "alternative to flu shot."

    Just MHO.

  •  I don't have a problem with the vaccination (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PittsburghPete
    But I suspect there won't be universal consensus here on Dkos about them, so I give the rodeo clown a pass until the show airs.

    "Republicans drove the country into a ditch and now they are complaining about the cost of the tow truck"-Jim Cornette

    by justmy2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:49:59 AM PDT

  •  Breathing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Devilstower, Go Kid Hugo, OtterQueen

    Essential bodily function or liberal conspiracy to fill our children's lungs with toxins?

  •  "Teens and guns? Why the hell not?" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah, ER Doc, OtterQueen

    Fox "News" - America's #1 Choice For Disinformation

    by kitebro on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:50:16 AM PDT

  •  Hands off our bodies! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    astronautagogo, TheBrooder

    Government control is Beck's issue.  I'm surprised Beck would be mocked for this particular issue.  He's saying that to take the vaccine would be a choice we make for ourselves, not a government requirement as some have wanted it.

    I think most people here will not be lining ourselves and our families up to take the swine flu vaccine based on many issues.  The medicine could be worse than the disease.

  •  I'm actually starting to like the guy (4+ / 0-)

    from an entertainment perspective.  

    He's pure slapstick.

  •  Vaccines Are Not Risk-Free (3+ / 0-)

    I don't know what more you want - he's devoting half of the show to those who think that the risks of the vaccine exceed the benefit and the other half of the show to those who think that the benefits outweigh the risks.

    I happen to think the benefits outweigh the risks, and that's why I get the flu shot every year.  However, it's not my place to say you are crazy if you decide otherwise.

  •  Playing with A Hair Dryer in the Bathtub (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bulldawg, ER Doc, filby

    And I can't believe I just wasted three minutes of my life on Glen Beck.  

    Peace.

  •  Future Glenn Beck shows (9+ / 0-)
    1. Obama - human, or vampire?
    1. Are black people genetically inferior?
    1. Science - fact, or conspiracy?
    1. Does smoking cause cancer?
    1. Were the moon landings faked?
    1. Did the Holocaust really happen?
    1. Climate Change - massive fraud, or sinister conspiracy?

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference.

    by blue aardvark on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:51:33 AM PDT

  •  When is Glenn Beck going to stop sniffing glue?? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bulldawg, TexMex, JeffW, A Runner
  •  Next up: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, loblolly, A Runner
    Pro/con regarding the merits of having health insurance.  President Obama is attempting to take away our freedom to go into medically-induced financial ruin.  

    Oh, there you are, Perry. -Phineas -SLB-

    by boran2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:52:17 AM PDT

  •  Forced sterilization for Fox News hosts: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bulldawg, filby

    For and Against

    The new healthcare reform bill is sorta like the Bible; those who claim to know what's in it haven't actually read it...

    by wry twinger on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:53:51 AM PDT

  •  Or howza bout three long show segments stoking (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah, OtterQueen

    fears about FEMA camps, and a 5 minutes segnment dismissing it as a improbable.

    "Goin' back to Houston, do the hot dog dance."

    by A Runner on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:54:50 AM PDT

  •  This is all about discrediting the federal (8+ / 0-)

    government.  Making it look like a conspiracy perpetrated by the hated Feds to get innocent Americans killed.  Ironically and tragically and totally horrifically, this stuff that Beck spreads around actually DOES get Americans killed.  One of his listeners killed policemen responding to a domestic crisis, lying in wait with his assault rifles to kill them upon arrival, certain that Beck's warning that the Feds would take his guns was real.

    No conscience.  No remorse.  No morals.  No truth.  That's Glenn Beck's credo.  May he rot in hell for all eternity for his greed and his outright lies.

  •  Beck: Fetal Alcohol Syndrome-how it worked for me (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Debby, JeffW, OtterQueen

    "One day sir, you may tax it." Michael Faraday's reply to William Gladstone, when asked of the practical value of electricity.

    by yojimbo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:55:29 AM PDT

  •  are you kidding me? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bulldawg, loblolly, OtterQueen

    Does anybody at Fox give a damn whether people die because of the fear and paranoia Glenn Beck puts on the air?

    It's Fox. Of course not.

    Texas: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Lady Bird & LBJ, Ann Richards, Sam Rayburn, Dan Rather, Ike, Sully Sullenberger, Lloyd Bentsen. It's No Bush League!

    by BlackSheep1 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:55:32 AM PDT

  •  If you've ever wondered about the warning label.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah, JeffW, loblolly

    on the side of toasters that says "don't put toaster into oven" the need for this label is now clear: Glenn Beck viewers.

  •  Am I going to give this injection to my children? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sawgrass727, OtterQueen

    Better not do it yourself. You could screw up the dosage.

    "You can never guarantee victory, but you can guarantee defeat."--Hall of Fame baseball writer Leonard Koppett.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:57:36 AM PDT

    •  I agree with Glenn Beck in this instance: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bulldawg, JeffW

      I don't think anybody but your doctor should give their opinion on the swine flu

      And I'm assuming he means the H1N1 vaccine.

      "Life is short. Drink the good wine!" - OQ

      by OtterQueen on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:08:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then why is he having the program at all? (0+ / 0-)

        Sounds like he's just "vaccinating" himself against potential lawsuits. I'm sure that disclaimer will run during the program.

        Yes, advice from your family physician (assuming you have one) is the best. But public health involves more than just doctors: nurses, public health workers, retirement home volunteers, etc. A friend of mine who is a health inspector just went through a workshop on preventing H1N1 in food service. Media, bloggers, friends and neighbors--all can help by passing along good, reliable information and helping each other out.

  •  My childs pediatrician (3+ / 0-)

    is not administering H1N1 - said that they couldn't promote what they will not take themselves.

    This Dr. isn't some wingnut and is a great Dr.

    So I am taking advice.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:58:25 AM PDT

    •  If your doctor said that (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hhex65, kkjohnson, brein, loblolly, ViralDem

      You need to rethink their "greatness."-

      •  It's not easy for a parent (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LNK, RethinkEverything

        we interviewed pediatricians - got recomendations from other Dr's - this Doc is good - a true advocate for children and their health.  They will administer the regular seasonal shot but not H1N1 - the Dr is not advocating against it - but won't administer it.  If school requires it, we may go ahead but I think as a non-medical professional, you need to have some trust in the Doctor and no one that I feel I can trust had made a compelling reason to get it - I asked my GP and his response was it's optional.

        So that's where I am with this.  I can tell you that I wouldn't be getting info pro or con from the Glen Beck show.

        The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

        by ctexrep on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:13:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  2nd Opinion? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      loblolly

      I'd challenge the doctor on that one. what is his exact position? wait one year until we have better safety data, don't take it at all because H1N1 isn't dangerous? need more to evaluate this advice.

  •  Let Beck's audience get H1N1. It will thin out (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sawgrass727, kkjohnson

    the herd.

  •  I say -- Let Natural Selection work its magic! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KLM, Bulldawg
    Why are we trying to rebut this?
  •  Ratigan strikes again: "Vaccine Scare Tactics" (0+ / 0-)

    Dr. Nancy Snyderman and Skeptic Magazine guy on Morning Meeting

    video here:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

    "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

    by Sybil Liberty on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 09:59:11 AM PDT

  •  Flu Vacine show is thefirst in his medical series (5+ / 0-)

    Second show:

    On Friday, I want you to join me for a special show, an hour-long special on the leeches.  This is for every American to ask themselves, "Am I going to put leeches on my children?"

    We're going to have a half-hour of those who say "Absolutely not" -- medical doctors. And then the second-half is "Are you crazy? You must."

    You decide. That'll be a special hour Friday. Honest questions, I don't think are going to be asked or answered anyplace else. Because no one else is this fucking stupid.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:00:51 AM PDT

  •  I'd like to see a whole hour where Beck (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Raven, loblolly

    goes cold turkey on his psyche meds. Oh wait, he does that everyday already...

    If you outlaw guns only Republicans will have them.

    by plok on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:00:54 AM PDT

    •  Actually, he isn't crazy at all (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brein

      This video shows what it's like backstage:

      This is a professional showman, and he has his schtick. Don't confuse the act with the person. He's got his multimillion dollar contract and he's earning it being a carnival geek on TV.

      Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

      by The Raven on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:18:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Stuffing chili peppers up your nose (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TexMex, Scrapyard Ape, JeffW

    is good for your sinuses.

    •  Putting cloves of garlic in nose and ears is good (0+ / 0-)

      NOT stuffing them up, just resting them gently.

      Try it next time you have a cold. You'll feel better.

      For earache, esp. in children.....resting half a warm onion on the ear is soothing.

      Both garlic and onion have germ-killing properties.

      Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

      by LNK on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:33:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can't fault fox on this anymore than any other (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah, gereiztkind, loblolly

    network. This is exactly the way the MSM is "objective" these days. Find one doctor to say don't get your kids inoculated and give him equal time with 10's of thousands who say get them inoculated

    Repent. The end is extremely f*cking nigh.--28 days later

    by voroki on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:01:28 AM PDT

  •  Because now days, health is politicized. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Seeds, loblolly

    sad.

    "Goin' back to Houston, do the hot dog dance."

    by A Runner on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:03:05 AM PDT

    •  remember what the said in the W early days (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brein

      "everything, and I mean everything, is being run by the White House political arm", i.e. Rove.

      so, guess who is coordinating the GOP response on everything they do as an opposition party?

  •  Welcome to the Gwen Beck hour! (0+ / 0-)

    Next up, on DK TV.  

  •  Probably something he stole from Benny Hinn. (0+ / 0-)

    He's already been field-testing some possibilities.

    Slap it. Shoot it. Kaboot it.

    by adios on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:03:10 AM PDT

  •  Mount Vernon Washington (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    filby

    Your favorite son is an ongoing embarrassment.

    I wonder if there is some way for you to get the key back?

    If cats could blog.... they wouldn't.

    by crystal eyes on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:04:24 AM PDT

  •  Why is Beck interested in (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bulldawg, filby

    contagins all of a sudden?  Did he CATCH something in 1990?

    Dancing Tom Delay - "That guy must have watched a lot of porn!" - Jon Stewart

    by Meggie on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:04:37 AM PDT

  •  What to really fear (0+ / 0-)
    See, the whole point of the Glenn Beck show is they continuously have some kind of subliminal pattern in the signal on that show that you don't pick up consciously, but if your eyes are pointed at the screen, it programs your brain. I have to emphasize this point: it is not the words he says, it is not the picture as you consciously view it, it is a subliminal pattern only. Like hyponisis, it works without your conscious awareness or control.

    It's like a computer virus only it attacks the brain.

    On Nov. 19, 2009, at precisely 9:11 a.m., everyone whose brain has been programmed by watching Glenn Beck is going to suffer a simultaneous epileptic-type fit or possibly, a stroke, if they've watched it a lot.

    That's why Beck gets more and more outrageous, they want everyone watching his antics, from the nut-case right-wing to the outraged left, in order to program as many people as possible.

    Then, with half the country levelled by brain zaps, a coup will take place! The ringleaders are: Rupert Murdoch, the Reverend Moon, Fred Phelps, and the Trilateral Commission.

    If you have already watched Glenn Beck, too late for you. For the rest...there is hope...excuse me while I go call the offices of "60 Minutes."

     

  •  You people even know what's in most vaccines? (0+ / 0-)

    This is like the one issue I part ways with most Kossacks. I think the best defense is building a strong immune system through plenty of clean water, fresh air, fruits & vegetables, i know...RADICAL concept.

    "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

    by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:05:56 AM PDT

    •  Patronizing! And how many here do their best (7+ / 0-)

      for themselves and their families - eat nutritious foods, try to get clean air and water, exercise and know about the beneficial things but are living in cities, in poverty, but living as healthy a life as possible in spite of one's circumstances - and you  tell us that we must be ignorant and you express doubt that we "even know what's in most vaccines?" And you end by thowing a Church Lady superior dance in there.  Whoa.

      •  you internalized it wrong (0+ / 0-)

        Most people have no idea what's in vaccines and the big pharma corps that produce them do everything they can to make sure the consumer is left in the dark in this regard.
        Injecting sickness/chemical/mercury hybrids to prevent sickness shouldn't always be the go to answer.
        As far as poverty and lack of resource, we need better nutritional education and government assistance regarding access to fresh produce etc, which Obama has been taking some action which is encouraging.

        "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

        by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:28:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  most people don't know what's in their sandwich (0+ / 0-)

          Most people have no idea what's in vaccines

          Most people don't know what's in their jam for god's sake.

          like like like you like
          all the pretty fruit that is on the shelf in the store is not the the fruit that goes into jam. Dark spot aren't bruises they are places insects have laid eggs.

          Don' t ask what percentage of insect parts are allowing your canned good.

          Don't know about sausage?  Don't ask....

          Discouraging vaccine use because of the yuck factor??
          No one would have sex.
          You wouldn't brush your teeth eva! if you knew what was in the bristles???
          The yuck factor could go on and on.
          Women's bathrooms look cleaner then men's bathrooms be are in fact dirtier because of all the little snotty nose kids that go in with their mothers.

          ewwww you would never get on a plane knowing that thousand people have sat on the same seat as you???

          •  point taken (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TexMex

            and it's a valid one that I agree with really. However, making the leap from mercury injections to having sex, airplane seats and toothbrushes isn't comparable.
            I do appreciate your challenge/questions and lively debate just the same.

            "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

            by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 12:03:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Disagree - info is easy to obtain (0+ / 0-)

          The information is in the package insert (see above). The package insert is supplied with the vaccine. How is that "doing everything they can to make sure the consumer is left in the dark"? Here, have some package inserts:

          http://www.fda.gov/...

          And what's a sickness/chemical/mercury hybrid? Can't imagine, but sure sounds scary.

    •  so during the 1918 flu (6+ / 0-)

      was it dirty water, polluted air, or not enough fruit and veg that killed 20 million?

      how about small pox? not enough excercise?

      polio? measles?

      •  Maybe that degree in miasmatic disease theory (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lindmere, TexMex, leolabeth

        will finally come in handy! Cost me, like, 70 bucks.

        There's A Riot Goin' On 0:00

        by hhex65 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:56:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not against medications (0+ / 0-)

        For particular circumstances. I think antibiotics & antiinfluenza drugs such rimantadine for example, have their time and place.
        My point being, prevention efforts are underrated and under-explored & some traditional medical drugs, like those stated above are practical (though very abused and overused) while most vaccines, but not all, do more harm than good.

        "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

        by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:01:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  so a pound of cure (0+ / 0-)

          vs an ounce of vaccine?

          makes sense I guess. and what role does the aura play in all this? how could it not, right?

          •  again, a non sequitur (0+ / 0-)

            FYI, I'm a atheist, not a new age ninny.
            Oh yeah, I haven't been sick in about 10 years now.

            "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

            by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:18:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  now that's what I call data (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              raines

              1 person over 10 years living in an environment where everyone has had their childhood vaccines and a substantial portion of the population gets an annual flu shot.

              if only we could test that data against outbreaks of viral diseases in populations where people don't get vaccines. if only there was a Center decicated to Disease Control staffed with professionals who track the spread of diseases and published their findings in a peer review process that would help us understand the role vaccines can play in saving lives.

            •  You can thank the rest of us (0+ / 0-)

              For your herd immunity. A giftcard to GNC will do nicely, thanks.

              •  Funny you'd pick a vitamin store (0+ / 0-)

                Seeing how i'm supposedly "the new age natural medicine idiot" around here.
                Look again, I invite you guys to look at my comment history in relation to this diary, so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
                I'm not an anti-vaccine absolutist, i'm not new age and I explain what PH balancing actually is.
                I'm enjoying the lively debate just the same.

                "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 12:19:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  It's a matter of simple chemistry (0+ / 0-)

        pH is a measure of the acidity or basicity of a solution. It is defined as the cologarithm of the activity of dissolved hydrogen ions (H+). Hydrogen ion activity coefficients cannot be measured experimentally, so they are based on theoretical calculations. The pH scale is not an absolute scale; it is relative to a set of standard solutions whose pH is established by international agreement.

        For example, when a pond gets too acidic, it gets moldy and life forms in the water begin to die, it's not much different with our bodies.

        Here's the Wiki entry on PH, if you scroll down, you'll see a section "Living Systems" aka, PH in it's relation to the human body.

        The most common disorder in acid-base homeostasis is acidosis, which means an acid overload in the body, generally defined by pH falling below 7.35.

        The condition i've been referencing is a state of acidosis.

        "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

        by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:55:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  So you didn't get the measles, rubella, polio (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      filby

      or tetanus vaccines when you were a child?  I agree regarding the importance of a healthy immune system, but the purpose of a vaccine is to bolster your immune system.

      The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

      by ecostar on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:26:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes replace vaccines with the Slap Chop! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catatonia, gereiztkind

      "We have to make them do it"

      by bagman on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:28:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So you think the only people who get the flu (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lindmere, TexMex, gereiztkind

      are the ones who don't eat their vegetables?

      That's fucked up.

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:33:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Folks get the flu (0+ / 0-)

        When their ph balancing is out of wack for too long. When your body is in a high acidic state, it lowers your immunity to being much more susceptible to such conditions.
        Most doctors are light years away from the ph balancing connection. Laugh all you want, buy a juicer and/or up your intake significantly of raw alkalizing foods and see/feel the difference.

        "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

        by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:48:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and all this time I thought it was a (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          raines, Beelzebud, ebohlman, Cofcos, ViralDem

          virus the body did not have previous exposure to.

          who'd have thought that they Native American's could have survived the outbreak of measles and smallpox if they only had juicers when they first encountered the Europeans.

          •  it's not just about juicers (0+ / 0-)

            though the benefits are incredible, it's about a high consumption of  alkaline forming foods, which occurs predominantly through  raw fruits and vegetables.
            So yeah, I diet primarily consisting of red meat didn't help the Native American at that time.
            Countries/societies with the highest consumption of fresh produce have the lowest rates of disease and outbreaks across the board.

            Here are a few facts from the World Health Organization for example:

            *Up to 2.7 million lives could be saved annually with sufficient fruit and vegetable consumption.

            *Low fruit and vegetable intake is among the top 10 selected risk factors for global mortality.

            *Worldwide, low intake of fruits and vegetables is estimated to cause about 19% of gastrointestinal cancer, about 31% of ischaemic heart disease and 11% of stroke.

            The list goes on.

            "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

            by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:11:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  does the WHO (0+ / 0-)

              have any numbers on the lives saved by the availability of inexpensive vaccines for common diseases such as influenza, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, smallpox, etc?

              how many years has it been since there was a small pox outbreak anywhere in the world? has the intake of fruit & veg increased that much since then?

              •  You're are misunderstanding me (0+ / 0-)

                Perhaps in part to my own failure to communicate entirely...
                I'm not an absolutist about being anti-vaccine.
                I'm in favor of some vaccines for some things, but not others, and certainly not as widespread and for as broad of use as most take them today.

                Progressive minded MD's, like Dr. MyHill IMHO, get it right:

                So what vaccinations would I give my child today?

                No DPT in the first few months of life (I would look for protection from breast feeding).
                I would give polio because I do not want to risk paralysis and I believe good nutrition will protect my child from other severe enteroviral infections.
                No MMR (I want my child to get these infections young when the immune system, with good nutrition, can deal efficiently with these infections). See MMR vaccination - should my child have it?
                Good HealthKeeping is a website with information on obtaining single vaccines.
                Once my child started running around outside I would give tetanus vaccination.
                No BCG.
                With a daughter, I would check rubella status as a teenager and use vaccination if she was negative: I do not want her to get rubella during pregnancy.

                "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:40:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I stopped getting your guys thoughts (0+ / 0-)

                  after this one. Would love to hear em.

                  "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                  by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 12:27:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Probably people are speechless (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ebohlman

                    The website you link above is absent any credentials and suspicious of motives (the "doctor" touts medical tests that she will perform for you at 25 GBP a pop). It's also riddled with discredited and non-science-based theories and treatments.

                    Also, did you notice in the quote above that the "doctor" advocates letting your child get measles, mumps, and rubella? The same measles that kills almost 200,000 kids worldwide? That leads to 1 in 10 kids getting pneumonia and 1 in 1000 getting encephalitis? That we've been successfully vaccinating against decades?

                    •  the doctor advocates (0+ / 0-)

                      giving polio, rubella and tetanus shots.
                      I do find it curious that you are so suspicious of the motives of alternative treatments, yet do not question the motives of the big pharma suppliers of vaccines and the widespread use and frequency of such vaccines.

                      "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                      by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 12:46:34 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Whoa--"progressive-minded" MDs? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ebohlman

                  So you're now labeling docs like this one--who offers no credentials on her website, and who links Gulf War Syndrome to vaccines and recommends chelation therapy for autistic kids--as "progressive"?

                  Things are worse than I thought.

                  •  I understand your skepticism (0+ / 0-)

                    But if our personal health discoveries are limited to traditional Docs and big pharma dominated drug culture with their own questionable motives, then we are severely stagnating our potential.
                    I don't think it's all one way or another. It's a matter of finding the right hybrid of when to use trad medicine and when all natural, alternative treatments/discoveries can be of great help.
                    I'm not perfect, all I'm asking is for the community to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

                    "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                    by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 12:57:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Which has nothing to do with pH (0+ / 0-)

              The WHO link you supplied says nothing about pH. It talks about cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and obesity--all of which are good reasons to eat lots of fruits and vegetables. But there's not a word about juice preventing communicable disease like flu. In fact, it says

              Fruits and vegetables as part of the daily diet could help prevent major noncommunicable diseases (NCD)

              Please share a link to any legitimate world health or medical organization backing up the pH theory as it applies to communicable disease.

              •  Most raw fruits and vegetables (0+ / 0-)

                Are alkaline forming, which is the counter balance to acidosis. So it has everything to do with pH.
                Again, It's a matter of simple chemistry. pH is a measure of the acidity or basicity of a solution. It is defined as the cologarithm of the activity of dissolved hydrogen ions (H+). Hydrogen ion activity coefficients cannot be measured experimentally, so they are based on theoretical calculations. The pH scale is NOT an absolute scale; it is relative to a set of standard solutions whose pH is established by international agreement.

                For example, when a pond gets too acidic, it gets moldy and life forms in the water begin to die, it's not much different with our bodies.

                Here's the Wiki entry on PH, if you scroll down, you'll see a section "Living Systems" aka, PH in it's relation to the human body.

                The condition i've been referencing is a state of acidosis.

                "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 01:16:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As far as pH in it's relation (0+ / 0-)

                  To communicable diseases, a state of acidosis leaves your immunity in a very compromised state, thus making one more susceptible to all disease.

                  "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                  by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 01:21:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  A state of acidosis (0+ / 0-)

                    puts you in the ICU. The notion that large numbers of non-critically-ill people are walking around in an acidotic state is BS. The fact is that certain eating patterns will make your urine more or less acidic; this can be important when treating certain kinds of kidney stones, but that's about it. Note that your urine is biologically/metabolically outside your body, even when it's sitting in your bladder.

                    What you're espousing is a popular belief system, but it's one that isn't supported by Biology 101 (which is not under the control of "big pharma").

                    There is nothing so practical as a good theory—Kurt Lewin

                    by ebohlman on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:49:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  not true (0+ / 0-)

                      That's simply not true and a very overly simplistic assessment of acidosis and pH balancing. So it's you're either in the ICU or everything is just fine and no in betweens huh?

                      It's a fact, that whatever goes into your body is either more alkaline forming, or more acidifying. To believe that what you consume has no effect on your pH levels is ridiculous.
                      If a state of acidosis only effects the bladder, than how come there are so many different adverse symptoms throughout the entire body?
                      Processed, packaged, artificially sweetened & overly cooked foods have a high acidifying effect on the body. Most of the SAD (standard american diet) is high in these things.
                      My own dad was on his deathbed with heart failure, arrhythmia etc...As the symptoms chart indicates. As soon as he began taking Cal/Magnesium powder supplementation, his heart rate normalized INSTANTLY. That was like 8 years ago & he's been taking it everyday and has been fine ever since.
                      That's just one story of proper pH balancing in action. He's 80 years old and went from 3 different medications to NO heart medication.

                      I would also like to add that i've been very civil during all this and i've received nothing but arrogant, patronizing, self righteous, snide, smarmy attitude in return.

                      "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

                      by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 04:46:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  oh well (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ebohlman

          When their ph balancing is out of wack for too long. When your body is in a high acidic state,

          There ya go.....
          Next you will be selling the make your own water alkaline device.

          Step right up and hurry up an git ur Alkaline healing water machine here!

          http://www.healingwatermachines.com/

          fun for the whole family!

          *********************************************************************
          The sad part of the Age of Aquarius. eh?

          We all need some Bach Flower remedies???

          http://www.bachflower.com/

          •  Alkaline water devices (0+ / 0-)

            Are scientifically questionable in their effectiveness. You're using a gimmick product that is exploiting ph balance science to make a sweeping uninformed point. (aka throwing out the baby with the bath water)
            As far as Bach Flower remedies, I agree pretty ineffective, but it doesn't invalidate the beneficial health properties and effectiveness of many herbs.
            Nice horoscope reference, another non sequitur as i'm an atheist.

            "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

            by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:23:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  name me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              raines

              the department of ph balance science.
              please post the names of the foremost scientists in ph balance science.
              What university, research hospital or medical program has published in medical research journals  on ph science?

        •  "Laugh all you want" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TexMex

          OK.

          HAAAAahahahahahahahah
          hah ahahahahahahahahahahah
          ahahahah hoooey.

          Next up - The Germ Theory of disease.  It's just a "theory".

          OK, so we're up by 21, there's 34 seconds left in the 4th and we have the ball. I say we forfeit. - Coach Baucus

          by nightsweat on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:34:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  citations/links? Peer-reviewed published studies? (0+ / 0-)

          A preponderance of evidence would help build acceptance for your theories.

        •  When I was a senior in high school (0+ / 0-)

          I batted fifty touchdowns in one basketball game.

          What I just wrote makes as much sense as what you just wrote. Like Wolfgang Pauli once said "this isn't right. It isn't even wrong."

          There is nothing so practical as a good theory—Kurt Lewin

          by ebohlman on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:41:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  waaaaaaaa? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raines, Beelzebud, ebohlman, filby

      Your immune system exists because of viruses.
      They exist.
      Gee.... you must have missed science class during the lesson on viruses.
      Are you saying that Leeuwenhoek didn't see animalcules in water.
      Pasteur didn't discover the real cause for puerperal fever and rabies?

      So let's not not support Rotary International in trying to eliminate the scourge of polio  because all people need is clean water and fruit?

      Polio plus India
      http://www.rotarypolioplusindia.org/

      Polio podcast
      http://rotarypoliopodcast.com/

      Rotary international blogspt.com
      http://rotarynid.blogspot.com/

      It is a desperate struggle to get vaccines to suspicious peoples.

      Privileged people who are already vaccinated can write "ewww what in them" comments.

      You were given a battery of vaccines at birth.  I suspect your Dr. thought your mom was feeding you clean water and fruit etc.

      •  Again (0+ / 0-)

        I'm not opposed to all vaccines, including polio vaccines. Please see my comment history regarding this diary for more info.

        "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

        by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 01:17:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Time to remove that Carl Sagan quote (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TexMex

      because you obviously don't understand what he was getting at.  

      "Give me a water board, Dick Cheney, and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders." -Jesse Ventura

      by Beelzebud on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:11:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  really! (0+ / 0-)

        gee....
        A Candle in the Dark!

        incredible!

        •  Funny enough it's one of my favorite books (0+ / 0-)

          I think the quote is quite applicable. I invite you guys to look at my comment history in relation to this diary, so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
          I'm not an anti-vaccine absolutist, i'm not new age and I explain what PH balancing actually is.

          "The truth may be puzzling. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true." -- Carl Saga

          by astronautagogo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:58:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, I know what's in vaccine (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Beelzebud

      From the CSL package insert:

      Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is formulated to contain 15 mcg HA per 0.5 mL dose of influenza A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)v-like virus. The single-dose formulation is preservative-free; thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is not used in the manufacturing process for this formulation.  The multi-dose formulation contains thimerosal, added as a preservative; each 0.5 mL dose contains 24.5 mcg of mercury.

      A single 0.5 mL dose of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009Monovalent Vaccine contains sodium chloride (4.1 mg), monobasic sodium phosphate (80= mcg), dibasic sodium phosphate (300 mcg), monobasic potassium phosphate (20 mcg), potassium chloride (20 mcg), and calcium chloride (1.5 mcg).  From the manufacturing process, each dose may also contain residual amounts of sodium taurodeoxycholate (≤ 10 ppm), ovalbumin (≤ 1 mcg), neomycin sulfate (≤ 0.2 picograms [pg]), polymyxin B (≤ 0.03 pg), and beta-propiolactone (<25 nanograms). </p>

      What's your point? Or was it a rhetorical question?

  •  Seatbelts (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TexMex

    They limit freedom (of movement).

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:06:13 AM PDT

  •  Beck and Fox sure do know how to tap into (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah

    that fear that all appropriately and unappropriately protective parents have for their children.  And now, the ignorant will be waiting bated breath for Beck to tell them what to do.  They cannot think for themselves.  Their knowledge base is empty=nothing.  They only know fear.  And when a Republican or right wing conservative says something like, "I'm not going to tell you what to do, only raise questions for YOU TO DECIDE," they are going to scare the shit our of their true believers.  This is anti-knowledge.  This is not even your father's science.  This is the Dark Ages.  My god, but they do know how to rope in the gullibe.

    •  What % of Beck's audience has access to a doctor? (0+ / 0-)

      Jed's quote has Beck saying one should only take one's doctor's opinion on the vaccine. It would be interesting to know how many of those tuning in will go to a doctor? Perhaps Beck's show is like crazy Remote Area Medicine.

      Obama is a tool; and I mean that in the nicest way.

      by hoipolloi on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:12:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  An *hour* (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drmah

    devoted to whether or not you and your family should get a swine flu vaccine?  Sounds absolutely riveting.  Great call, Glenn, great call.

    My health care is a sacred matter that should be determined by my doctor, a greedy for-profit corporation, and Wall Street.

    by signals on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:08:01 AM PDT

  •  I think... (0+ / 0-)

    ... that Glenn Beck is just scared of needles.  So he's building a rationalization not to get the shot.

    No more Snowe jobs! Co-op is a cop out. It is not an option, let alone a public one.

    by JRandomPoster on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:08:47 AM PDT

  •  War of the Worlds (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tommyfocus2003, brein, loblolly

    It is like Beck does Orson Welles "War of the Worlds" everyday. And he never comes out and says its a hoax.

    Obama is a tool; and I mean that in the nicest way.

    by hoipolloi on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:08:51 AM PDT

  •  "Coming up: (0+ / 0-)

    should you not jump off a cliff?"

    I used to be an angry young man. Now I'm just a bitter old fart!- Bulldawg

    by Bulldawg on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:09:09 AM PDT

  •  "i don't think anybody but your doctor should (6+ / 0-)

    give their opinion on the swine flu," but that's exactly what i'm going to do for an hour on thursday.

    "Michele Bachmann is like the demi glace of wingnuttia." - Chris Hayes, Countdown, 2/18/09

    by rasbobbo on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:09:12 AM PDT

  •  If he lies, and people die... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LNK, loblolly

    ... is that actionable? As in, class-action lawsuit by the victims' families against Fox News or Beck himself?

    Is is a 1st Amendment thing, or a "shouting FIRE in a crowded theater" thing?

    I'm not a lawyer. Anybody know?

  •  People will die because of this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ETinKC, leolabeth, brein

    Whether they refuse to get their children vaccinated or because they contribute to a lower herd immunity and the at-risk succumb, people will die.  

    This reminds me of the
    Jenny McCarthy Body Count site

    How can we measure Glenn Beck's contribution to the death and sick tolls?

  •  Next Up ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scrapyard Ape

    A very special hour-long show about leprechauns vs. flying ponies.

    I'm not going to tell you whether to chase the pot o' gold or the pretty rainbows. I don't think anybody but your fairy godmother should give their opinion ...

    The Republican brand: "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich"

    by D in Northern Virginia on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:13:28 AM PDT

  •  I'm wating for Beck to try Sucide Bomer routine, (0+ / 0-)

    coming on the air with dynamite strapped to his body, threatening to blow up America if we don't show hime some love.

  •  This isn't that crazy of an idea... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    djMikulec

    I've got a friend who works at a hospital in Los Angeles, and she is being forced to get the vaccine. She was telling me the other day there are legitimate, scary side effects that've been linked to this vaccine. The FDA announced that they were rushing production w/ out a trial period, which is common, but potentially unnerving. People w/ certain life-threatening allergies shouldn't be taking it.

    Look, I hate Beck as much as the next guy, but a compare and contrast of ideas over whether or not to get a swine flu shot is not where we need to pick our fight.

  •  the drinking of Clorox is debatable. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bagman, brein, BrighidG

    Of course, it's hideously stupid to drink Clorox, but that doesn't mean we can't hear arguments about it!

    I want to hear Beck's take on slamming one's dick in a car door.  And I want him to be able to speak from experience about why or why not this is a good thing to do.  

    Seriously, I don't know why this "rodeo clown" is still allowed on TV after all the irresponsible shit he's done.  Sometimes I think he's somebody's big "social experiment" to try to form an actual chart of how stupid and gullible American citizens are, or how metastisized our zeitgeist is...

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:18:48 AM PDT

    •  Rodeo clowns (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brein, Front Toward Enemy

      are amazing, not to mention, really, really brave.  Glenn Beck is no rodeo clown.

      My health care is a sacred matter that should be determined by my doctor, a greedy for-profit corporation, and Wall Street.

      by signals on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:35:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  true... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        signals, BrighidG

        I put it in quotes because that's what Beck calls himself.   But any real rodeo clown would kick this fool's ass.

        He's more like... a whoopie cushion on America's seat of power, I guess.  Except even that is more useful than Beck..

        "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

        by Front Toward Enemy on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:45:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  40% won't vaccinate no matter what (0+ / 0-)

    How stupid people are culled from the herd:  In a new survey, 40% of adult Americans say they won't get the H1N1 flu vaccine even if people nearby are dying. So, natural selection is at work. After October when the vaccine is available everywhere, it will be the Americans who are suspicious of government and science, or think the president was born in Kenya, who will sicken or die.

    In a new survey, Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) researchers found that just 40% of adults are "absolutely certain" they will get the H1N1 vaccine for themselves, and 51% of parents are "absolutely certain" that they will get the vaccine for their children.

    If there were people in their community who were sick or dying from H1N1, roughly six in ten adults (59%) who say they do not think they'll get the vaccine would change their mind and get it for themselves.

    No Public Option, No Re-Election. It's not complicated.

    by mrobinson on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:19:05 AM PDT

    •  Your title is not supported by your figures (0+ / 0-)

      If you make the worst-case assumption that all the 60% of adults who aren't "absolutely certain" they'll get the vaccine are the ones who say they "don't think they'll get the vaccine," then the 40% of the latter who wouldn't change their minds amounts to 24% of the total. So at most 24% "won't vaccinate no matter what" and that assumes that nobody falls into categories like "probably going to get it, but not sure" or "I'll get it if I can afford to."

      There is nothing so practical as a good theory—Kurt Lewin

      by ebohlman on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 02:59:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Vaccine yes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leolabeth, Seeds, loblolly

    people are dying like flies in the Dallas area from swine flu. When I was a kid and polio vaccine came out the same BS was thrown around. I knew families who would not allow their children to be vaccinated because it could cause polio. They were of the conservative bunch. I will get the vaccine as soon as possible.

  •  I'd be pissed about this if Oprah hadn't already (0+ / 0-)

    fouled the pool with her brand of crazy medical opinions.

    Just to clear the decks. I own no monkeys.

    by Misterpuff on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:23:43 AM PDT

  •  So that means he'll preside over a lot of deaths (0+ / 0-)

    from swine flu.  Will he get the vaccine?  Or more positively, that means there will be more vaccine for all of us reality based liberals.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

    by ecostar on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:24:05 AM PDT

  •  BETTER than Beck, with link (0+ / 0-)

    Swine Flu Vaccine discussion. Intelligent!

    http://www.onthemedia.org./...

    Donald G. McNeil Jr., New York Times reporter, reports on the mandated swine flu vaccinations for New York health care workers. Thomas Lowe, RN, health & safety representative for the New York State Nurses Association, objects to New York State's requirement that all health care workers get vaccinated against H1N1.

    Comment Board:
    http://www.onthemedia.org./...

    Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

    by LNK on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:26:17 AM PDT

  •  Just leaves more for the rest of us (0+ / 0-)

    Let his loonies not get the shot even if they're at risk. It's their choice, and I respect that choice, but if they're truly afraid that their government and health care officials are out to get them, it'll just mean more vaccine for others.

  •  urgh (0+ / 0-)

    I'm really disgusted at the lack of willingness to look at the FACT that atheist circumcision in israel/palestine might cause autism.

  •  Next on Beck: Polio shots are for wimps. (0+ / 0-)

    He's jerry freaking springer, except he sits there and sobs because of the horrible, ratings-killing truth: Obama kept us safe. Bush didn't.

    Obama paid attention when intelligence warned of an attack on the US. Bush didn't care.

    Obama made a practical, if unpopular compromise, to keep the nation's banks functioning. Bush just fed them whatever they wanted at the moment.

    Obama faced the most talented reporters from across the world - repeatedly, without a script or a net, and came away looking like an experienced leader. Bush? Jesus Christ.

    I'll say it again: Obama protected the US. Bush and Cheney let us get attacked.

  •  Hammering your thumb (0+ / 0-)

    30 minutes to thumb-hammering advocates, whose views range from "It doesn't hurt" to "It builds character."  30 minutes from thumb-hammering opponents, whose views range from "Owww!" to "D'oh!"

    We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.

    by Simian on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:33:35 AM PDT

  •  I don't get Beck. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541, RockyLabor

    You know, I think all of these guys are basically full of it.  Charlatans, mostly.  But I don't get the appeal of Beck's insanity.

    Don't tell me about the "new politics" if you're an asshole.

    by Ms Johnson on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:33:53 AM PDT

  •  Next week: my critics, (0+ / 0-)

    Are they feces-flinging crazy or just a mountain of stupid?

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:35:56 AM PDT

  •  You can take it as a call for community (0+ / 0-)

    I heard a report out of either New York or Connecticut that 100 pregnant women were hospitalized for swine flu and 28 of them died.  This is really serious.  I don't subscribe to cable anymore, so I am spared this trash.  If I want entertainment, I can order Netflix.

  •  The only reason to watch Beck (0+ / 0-)

    is to see if he'll spontaneously combust and end up like this:

    Don't look at it Marion! Don't look at it!

    Sponge Bob, Mandrake, Cartoons. That's how your hard-core islamahomocommienazis work.

    by Benito on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:39:29 AM PDT

  •  I can hardly comprehend the enormity of the (0+ / 0-)

    civil disorder that the doughboy is causing.  I am supposedly Buddhist so I shouldn't wish a bad case of H1N1 for him that he barely survives; and/or that someone gets evidence that he has secretly gotten the vaccination.

  •  off topic but no open thread (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wyvern

    Seems like Saint Russ, Protector of Our Constitution, is as full of shit on 'czars' as it seems.  According to Greg Sargent at Plum Line:

    White House Slaps Down Feingold’s Criticism Of Obama’s "Czars"

    Dems watched in puzzlement last month as Senator Russ Feingold announced plans for hearings into the Obama administration’s use of alleged "czars." Feingold claimed his constituents were worried about the czars and formally asked the White House to "identify these individuals’ roles and responsibilities," applying bipartisan legitimacy to an attack largely waged from the hothouses of the right.

    Now the White House is slapping back at the criticism. In a lengthy letter to the Senator, White House counsel Greg Craig politely lays out the reasons why he thinks the "czar" line is ridiculous, saying none of the alleged czars "raises any valid concerns."

    Translation from the lawyerese: Stop trafficking in crazy.

    Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

    by Tuffie on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:41:06 AM PDT

  •  So he's found MD versions of Orly Taitz (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    loblolly

    I'm tempted to watch for entertainment value. But I'm afraid I might vomit.

    _Karl Rove is an outside agitator._

    by susanala on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 10:41:43 AM PDT

  •  If you follow the word of FOX... (0+ / 0-)

    blindly enough to let it affect your personal well being, there is little we can do to help you...

  •  Does dying from the flu (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenmama

    because you were too paranoid to take a flu shot count as natural selection?

    The true Ben Franklin quote from Poor Richard's Almanack is "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

    by Andy30tx on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:00:49 AM PDT

  •  Maybe a Jim Carrey-like special where he kicks (0+ / 0-)

    his own ass? Well, I would watch that.

    Bullshit is the glue that binds us as a nation. George Carlin

    by gereiztkind on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:03:20 AM PDT

  •  Anti-Vaxxers are dangerous. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leolabeth, ebohlman

    Anti-science rubbish.  It's not surprising Glenn Beck want's to make this into a "debate".

    And shame on kos readers that buy into this un-scientific garbage.  

    "Give me a water board, Dick Cheney, and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders." -Jesse Ventura

    by Beelzebud on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:10:00 AM PDT

  •  Swine Flu or Glenn Beck: which is more dangerous? (0+ / 0-)

    Glenn Beck and Swine: Flu or Poo?

    I manufacture fake drama flu: Beck-itis

    Swine Flu is real: Glenn Beck is a fictional character

    Swine Flu treats everyone equally, Glenn Beck is a racist bigoted ego-maniac, therefore make friends with swine

    What happened in 1990? Better find something else to talk about.

    1. My 1984, by G Beck

    What not to do in the year 1990, by G Beck

  •  Totally unrelated point: (0+ / 0-)

    I had to laugh at the "news scroll" at bottom of screen: Method Man arrested on felony charges for not paying $ 33,000 in taxes?" Too bad he wasn't nominated for Treasury Secretary, no? Isn't that the same ammount Geithner evaded?

  •  Beck's Latest Gimmick!!! (0+ / 0-)

    Oxygen - are you going to let your children breathe it?

    Maxie Baucus took an axe, gave Single Payer 40 whacks. And when he saw what he had done, gave Public Option 41. (NO, Max! Bad Senator!)

    by SciMathGuy on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:17:51 AM PDT

  •  FOX is Dangerous to the Public's Health (0+ / 0-)

    I have been a nurse practitioner for over 17 years and Glenn Beck is a danger to the Public's Health.  He isn't a "rodeo clown" but a cowardly, dangerous adult who has crossed many  a line when it comes to to our air waves in spreading fear, mis-information and down-right psychologically disturbing behavior.  While distancing himself from taking a postion on the swine-flu vaccine, he is hawking his fear mongering program for thursday night that undoubtedly will heighten people's fears of the government "vaccine" and swine flu pandemic that many experts in Public Health have predicted.

    Glen Beck and Fox are spreading lies, fears and disinformation about the vaccine and the flu.  If people are swayed by Beck's fear mongering and get sick, my feeling is Beck and Fox news needs to be held accountable and liable for the dis-information they will undoubtedly spread through their programs.  If people follow the advice given on Becks's show and someone gets sick, especially a child, my advice is to take them to task and sue them for every penny they have.  Seeking medical advice from Mr. Beck and FOX news is dangerous and hazardous to the public's health.  

  •  what's under the table? (0+ / 0-)

    Is he electrified?  Is he sitting on a particularly comfortable or stimulating seat?  Is the seat electrified?  
    Or is he a lifelike painted version of an animated character using the best of today's green screen and CG technology?

  •  He's not the only one. (0+ / 0-)

    Last week's Ring of Fire with Bobby Kennedy and Mike Weirdlastname did some fearmongering about the vaccine, too, only they accuse it of having high mercury levels.

    Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

    by allergywoman on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:28:24 AM PDT

  •  Next up (0+ / 0-)

    We'll have a special show on "Driving Nails Into Your Skull and Hooking Them To Exposed Electrical Wires". The second 30 minutes will be "What the F*** Kind of Lunatic Would Do That?". The first half will be "Uuugnnn-zzzz-uuuunn--pthhhh".

    My spiritual advisor is the Reverend Horton Heat.

    by Jaxpagan on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:38:56 AM PDT

  •  "Should I orshould I not check into psych hsptl?" (0+ / 0-)

    n/t

  •  What should be shown on Thursday... (0+ / 0-)

    Instead of the 'Glenn Beck Propaganda Hour' someone should broadcast the 'Glenn Beck Expose Hour'...

    On Thursday, I want you to join me for a special show, an hour-long special on Glenn Beck.  I am not going to give you my opinion of Glenn Beck, I don't think anybody but a psychiatrist should give an opinion of Glenn Beck. This is for every American to ask themselves, "Am I going to expose this man’s special brand of insanity to my children?"

    We're going to have a half-hour of those who say "Absolutely not" -- medical doctors and responsible adults.  And then the second-half is "Are you crazy? You must" – right-wing fear mongers and neocons.

    You decide (lol).  That'll be a special hour Thursday.  Honest questions I don't think are going to be asked or answered anyplace, most certainly not on Fox.

    'Party Before Country' - Official Motto of the GOP.

    by WSComn on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 11:51:15 AM PDT

  •  Glenn Beck for Darwin Award (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sawgrass727

    per wikipedia:

    A Darwin Award is a tongue-in-cheek honour named after evolutionary theorist Charles Darwin. Awards have been given for people who "do a service to Humanity by removing themselves from the gene pool" (i.e. lose the ability to reproduce either by death or sterilization in a stupid fashion). According to Wendy Northcutt, author of the Darwin Award books: "The Awards honor people who ensure the long-term survival of the human race by removing themselves from the gene pool in a sublimely idiotic fashion."

    Ok, a special category for Beck is needed since he is perhaps causing a mass elimination.  The Stupidity is Sad, but we cant force them not to go the way of the dodo bird.

    •  You may be not far from the truth (0+ / 0-)

      Your reference reminded me the deathly catastrophe that was the Jim Jones cult.  

      Which I believe, was the origin of the phrase, "Drink the Koolaide" for self-destructive lemming-like behavior. For Beckers, their phrase might become something like, "Screw the vaccine, drink lots of orange juice."

  •  Who are the Malpractice Insurers of his guests? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sawgrass727

    It will be fascinating to see if he can get any actual licensed physicians to say people should NOT have the vaccine!

    It will be interesting to see if any who do make such statements have had a discussion with their malpractice insurance carrier or that of the institution/hospital where they work!

  •  Why does Glenn Beck want his viewers to die? (0+ / 0-)

    Fight 'em 'til Hell freezes over, and then fight 'em on the ice. - David Van Os

    by sagra on Tue Oct 06, 2009 at 12:21:56 PM PDT

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site