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We are in the worst recession since the Great Depression, yet legal immigration continues at high levels  and is adding to unemployment, because immigration policy remains on autopilot. Our economy has been shedding jobs for almost two years, yet permanent immigrants  in fiscal 2008 (the last year for which I have data,  DHS Yearbook) numbered 1.1 million. That is a near-record-high level of legal immigration and 76% of the new immigrants were at least 20 years old. Camarota and Jensenius (2009) report that we issued visas in fiscal 2008 for 130,183 H-1B temporary workers, most of whom have at least a bachelor’s degree. There were 84,078 L visas issued for temporary workers as intercompany transfers. To qualify for an L visa an employee must have worked for the company only 1 year continuously sometime in the last 3 years. Because numbers are completely uncontrolled, the L visa has become a convenient way for multinational companies to beat the H-1B quotas.  L visas can be extended for  5 to 7 years, and H-1 visas for 6 years.

We also admitted 94,304 H-2B seasonal non-agricultural workers  in 2008. H-2B workers take what used to be summer jobs for high school  and college students, but this year many of them could have provided a few months income for unemployed Americans trying to support a family.

These numbers of immigrant workers are significant relative to the unemployment challenge. So far the recession has cost 8 million jobs (The Economist) and the number is still increasing. The White House reported in September that the stimulus package has, so far, created or saved  1 million jobs, and the total will be only 3.5 million  (Politico, 9/11/09). Larry Summers, Director of the National Economic Council, said, "The level of unemployment is unacceptably high, and will, by all forecasts, remain unacceptably high for a number of years." As usual, the impact of the recession is greatest for the most vulnerable workers, and particularly for less skilled non-immigrants.   Jensenius and Camarota (2009) report Census Bureau statistics for June showing an unemployment rate for non-immigrant Americans with less than a high school education of 20.8%, whereas it was 12.8% for immigrants with the same education. Unemployment was worse for minority non-immigrants. For non-immigrant  black workers with less than a high school education, the unemployment rate was 27.5% and for Hispanics 22.6%. There are 10 million non-immigrant American workers without a high school diploma, 8% of the non-immigrant workforce  (Camarota, 2006), and immigration policies that give preference to extended family bring in large numbers of unskilled legal immigrants. Continued business demand for H-1B and L visas, during a recession that has produced high unemployment in almost all occupations, will result in continued unemployment or displacement of skilled American workers.

With current high unemployment, continued high rates of immigration are contributing to unemployment. The experience of the last recession is also cause for concern. It suggests that the loss of jobs for  American workers will be long term, and permanent for many.

Camarota (2004) reported data from the Census Bureau for the period 2000 to 2004, which included the last recession and recovery.  During the recovery, often characterized as  jobless, there was actually significant job creation, but the jobs were allocated in surprising ways.  The number of adult immigrants holding jobs increased, from 2000 to 2004, by 2.3 million, and Camarota ( 2004) estimates that half of those were illegal immigrants.  However, in the same period the number of non-immigrant Americans holding jobs fell by 0.5 million, the number of unemployed non-immigrant Americans increased by 2.3 million, and an additional 4 million non-immigrants left the work force, i.e. they were no longer employed or seeking employment.  During the recession there were large job losses among non-immigrants, and very few for immigrants, however, unemployment increased even for immigrants, because immigration rates remained high, as in the current recession.  As the economy recovered, a large percentage of the jobs generated were filled by immigrants rather than by unemployed non-immigrants.  Employers used the recession to get rid of their well-paid American workforce and in the recovery they replaced them with a cheaper immigrant workforce.

Update [2010-4-5 17:14:34 by IowaPopulist]:


Department of Homeland Security. Yearbook of Immigration Statistics, 2008.

Camarota, S.A. and Jensenius, K., May, 2009. Trends in Immigrant and Native Employment. Center for Immigration Studies.

The Economist, 10/10/2009. The economy’s stumble, p. 32.

Politico, 9/11/09, Summers: High unemployment for years.

Jensenius, K. and Camarota, S.A., August,2009. Worse Than It Seems. Center for Immigration Studies.

Camarota,  Steven A., 2006.  Immigration’s Impact on American Workers.  Testimony Prepared for the House Judiciary Committee, August 29, 2006.

Camarota, S.A.,  2004. A Jobless Recover? Immigrant Gains and Native Losses.  Center for Immigration Studies  

Originally posted to IowaPopulist on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 12:41 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Last time I checked, illegal immigration was down (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chinton, koNko, Sentido, catchaz, greengemini

      by 25%. At least for 2008.

      So we should blame immigrants anyway for our problems?

      Starboard Broadside: Firing all guns at the Right since September 2008!

      by Cpt Robespierre on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 12:50:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Trollrated/using stats frm right-wing hate group (0+ / 0-)

      like FAIR & CIS

      right-wing trolls get troll-rated.

      secession = treason. Haters are Traitors!

      by catchaz on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:31:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So you object to up-market immigrants? (0+ / 0-)

      This seems to be your objection, suggesting it's OK to do the dirty work but not use one's brains.

      I do believe common sense requlations are required and controls like quotas, qualification requirements, etc, need to be improved and updated from time to time, but historically the US has benifited greatly by attracting hardworking immigrants for manual labor (low paid) and bright, hardworking immigrants for their intellectual abilities for manufacturing, service and technical jobs, which tend to create business and jobs for a broader base of natural citizens.

      Just because the economy is down does not mean you can automatically shut the tap closed without harmful side-effects. You accuse tech firms of using questionable tactics to evade quotas and while that may be true in some cases it's hardly the general situation.

      I work in a multinational firm that operates globally and in every design and R+D center (I am director of one) we have multinational staff since we try to hire the best and brightist we can afford, and frequently rotate people (particularly those upwardly mobile in the organization) to different locations to gain experience, transfer knowledge and practice or cover jobs that do not justify one head in every location.

      My R+D site in China staffed by locals, Japanese, Americans, Europeans and SE Asians, and I have 6 staff members who are in almost constant motion to support operations elswhere. There is nothing unusual about this; a majority of our customers and suppliers share this model.

      Should all countries have open doors?  Well, if that could be done, yes. But it is not; most countries including the US have regulations and quotas so we need to manage the systems in a reasonable fashion with the recognition that business operates internationally today and if you cut off the tap you cut off the business.

      Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

      by koNko on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 11:18:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good (13+ / 0-)

    The more immigration we get, the sooner we'll have the wingnuts outnumbered and outvoted.

    Plus there's the not so insignificant fact that immigration produces economic growth, and that even if we ended it entirely, we'd fail to produce economic recovery. We pretty much closed the borders in 1924, yet it did nothing to prevent or ease the Great Depression...

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 12:48:26 PM PDT

    •  During a time of high unemployment (5+ / 0-)

      immigration cannot produce economic growth, it just adds to unemployment. To produce, you need a job, and at the present time that means taking a job that an unemployed worker could do.

      •  Immigration produces demand. Demand produces (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, catchaz, Ezekial 23 20


        Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

        by JayGR on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:13:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  For example (4+ / 0-)

          Country ABC has 500,000 citizens of equally mixed ethnic & racial backgrounds.   ABC has sustained modest growth in the past decade and is projected to continue on this stable path in the coming years.  Unemployment is at a steady 2.4%, and the average wage is 15 units/hour.  

          Country XYZ has 500,000 citizens of equally mixed ethnic & racial backgrounds.  XYZ experienced a steady decline in GDP over the past decade.  Its currency has devalued over 50% since 1999, and unemployment (currently at 40%) is rising.  The average wage is 4.00 units/hour.

          ABC & XYZ are located next to each other.   Due to the economic hardships in XYZ, citizens are crossing the border in order to find work and better opportunities.  Some go through ABC's legal framework for immigration, others stay off the grid.

          A decade later ABC has 550,000 citizens plus another 200,000 undocumented workers.  The amount of available capitol for startups has not increased despite the higher numbers of overall workers.   The undocumented workers typically do not have much cash - only their hands and a desire to work at any wage.   Employers in ABC appreciate the hard work and learn that the immigrants are eager to work for less money (its that or starve).  As a result wages dropped from 15 to 8 units/hour, and unemployment has risen to 9%.

          No racism here -- everyone gets along great.  There's just less to go around.  

          Unregulated immigration does not exist in a vacuum.  

          Sunshine on my shoulders...

          by pkbarbiedoll on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:35:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  We still have many jobs (farm laborers, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        dish washers, etc.) that not enough citizens want to take. I applaud the immigrants that come here ready to work and better their lives. Anyhow, the incremental immigrant is not materially impacting our unemployment rate.

        I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

        by doc2 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:23:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bullshit (6+ / 0-)

          I take extreme dislike to the above Republican talking point.

          Working with people at just above minimum for most of my life there is no job a legal worker won't do.

          The trick is to pay them. Who wipes your friggin asses in nursing homes? Legal workers because no one else has the good papers to get the job. Who sucks out the porta potties? You name a suck job. There's an American doing it.

          You rich yuppies just want someone to pick your avacados for cheap and keep the cost down in your Thai fusion restaurants.

          Mow your own friggin grass.

          "Don't fall or we both go" Derek Hersey

          by ban nock on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:48:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It doesn't matter to me. We're a nation (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            of immigrants and I'm happy to welcome one and all. If someone who was born here loses out to someone who wasn't, there is no net negative in my eyes.

            I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

            by doc2 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 02:11:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Being born here has nothing to do with it (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bgblcklab1, IowaPopulist, LegendClick

              An American is an American no matter  where they were born. Most people in most of the developing world would love to pay to come here. The going rate from China is over 40K. From Mexico over 3K. We can't open our borders, no one else does. The net negative is to your fellow countrymen.

              I'll make a social contract with you. You care about me and I'll care about you. I'm tired of the Ron Paul, "I got mine and the hell with the rest of you" attitude.

              "Don't fall or we both go" Derek Hersey

              by ban nock on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 02:30:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Most Americans were born here, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                a smaller number immigrated. I care about all people, whether recognized Americans or not. Why should I care more about you than your brother who is not an American? Why?

                I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

                by doc2 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 02:33:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because there are 3 billion more like my bro (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bgblcklab1, IowaPopulist

                  and we can't let all in. It's impossilble. We play by the rules. That's the deal.

                  You can care about people without giving them your bank account. We've created a overcompetetive market at the low end of the pay scale. It has destroyed unions, wages, quality of life.

                  "Don't fall or we both go" Derek Hersey

                  by ban nock on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 02:40:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You actually believe that you are entitled (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    debedb, catchaz

                    to a better life than even your own kin, simply because you were admitted to this country and they weren't? That is a form of elitism, don't you see that? Maybe the 3 billion can't all live here, but at least admit that there is no morally correct way to determine who should get to live here and who should not.

                    I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

                    by doc2 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 02:43:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Do you feel entitled to enjoy (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      bgblcklab1, IowaPopulist

                      your own home any more than a homeless person does?

                      •  Um, I bought my home. I didn't inherit it. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        If I had inherited it, I'd have earned it no more than the poor homeless guy.

                        I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

                        by doc2 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 03:23:20 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So you would feel more (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          entitled to enjoy it than the person who did not pay for it? That's discrimination against the poor, and probably racist, the way you seem to argue.

                          You are an elitist troll.

                          •  No need for insults like that. I don't (0+ / 0-)

                            think that you should be calling me, one of the first on this site, a troll anyhow. I won't respond to you again, about anything, since you can't seem to be able to argue a topic without resorting to personal insults. Good day.

                            I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

                            by doc2 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 05:07:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  The way we have is a pretty good one (0+ / 0-)

                      We open the door immeadiately for minor children and parents at any age, and spouses. Next are brothers, sisters, children over 18 by waiting on a list.

                      There is also a lottery which isn't that bad.

                      I'm not better than anyone, but I play by the rules.

                      We try to spread out the slots for who we let in so that it is open to all skin tones and religions and also so that no one country is over represented.

                      America is a pretty good place as far as being nondiscriminatory.

                      "Don't fall or we both go" Derek Hersey

                      by ban nock on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 03:23:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  Tell that to the Japanese (0+ / 0-)

        they were meticulous about not letting in any significant immigration, and they got 10 years of "malaise".

        Not that you care. Your diaries are just about all the same.

        I was paid to post this comment by my cat, but he's a deadbeat.

        by decembersue on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 03:46:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think many immigrants don't come here.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, HeadnHeart

    ...unless they have a job lined up.

    So, of course, their unemployment numbers would be lower.

  •  I read some of your other diaries (8+ / 0-)

    And I appreciate your viewpoint.  This is a hard subject to talk about and keep passions and emotions calm, but it's definately something that needs to be discussed.  Awhile back I read this article that was against the crackdown on illegal immigration, and it said how employers who would usually hire illegal immigrants were now forced to hire homeless people an ex-convicts.  Huh?  That's a negative?

    Recovering Intellectual. 12 days stupid.

    by scionkirk on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 12:50:43 PM PDT

  •  Yep, separating families (5+ / 0-)

    denying employers access to workers AFTER they have properly tested the job market and been approved by DOL, yeah, that's a great idea-it will really turn the recession around.  Immigration is a win win for everyone except the wingnuts.

    All compromise is based on give and take, but there can be no give and take on fundamentals. Mohandas Gandhi

    by MufsMom on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 12:51:42 PM PDT

  •  Iowa Populist, the Lou Dobbs of Daily Kos (2+ / 3-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, nokkonwud
    Hidden by:
    Catesby, bgblcklab1, IT Professional

    your continued immigrant-bashing bullshit is very revealing. just like the ReThugs freaking out on Obama.

    we understand exactly where people like you & Lou Dobbs are coming from: a dark slimey racist hole. please crawl back in and leave us the hell alone.

    secession = treason. Haters are Traitors!

    by catchaz on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:01:26 PM PDT

    •  Catchaz, I've read your stuff (4+ / 0-)

      hating is your thing not mine. I have nothing against any immigrants, but I do object to policies that bring them here in excessive numbers.  

      •  "excessive numbers" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        which means you just want whitesto stay the majority. as long as immigrants "know their place" you have no problem with them.

        you are the biggest immigrant-basher on the site. you need to take that racist crap somewhere it will be appreciated, like the Lou Dobbs forum. yes, you have some success in generating a small amount of immigrant-bashing from others here. but really you help expose your own bigotry more than anything else.

        hating racists is my thing, tho, you did get one thing right at least.

        secession = treason. Haters are Traitors!

        by catchaz on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:15:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Dude. (6+ / 0-)

          Grow up.  This is a serious issue and deserves serious debate.  What do you think would happen if everyone in the entire planet moved to Southern California.  Would the economy suddenly boom?  Maybe there would be a serious strain on our economic resources? our housing supply?  Our hospitals? our water and food supply? our roads and transportation systems?  Obviously there is a immigration high end of what an economy and ecology can handle, some people say it's higher, some lower.  Its a topic that we shouldn't just resort to name-calling on.

          When people start throwing in the 'racist' charge it just shows the ignorance of the person calling people that.  You don't have to agree with this guy, but he takes an unpopular stand analytically and dispassionately and backs up what he says with facts and figures.  That's a positive for this site.

          Recovering Intellectual. 12 days stupid.

          by scionkirk on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:48:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  C'mon. Billions are going to (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            decembersue, catchaz

            come in? If you can't argue your position without gross exaggerations, you must not be in a good position.

            I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

            by doc2 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 02:26:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Unfortunately that is not an exaggeration. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ban nock, IowaPopulist
              •  Wow, the entire planet is moving to (0+ / 0-)

                southern california? "that is not an exaggeration?" My goodness.

                I was paid to post this comment by my cat, but he's a deadbeat.

                by decembersue on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 03:48:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  They absolutely would. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  You would have to go and visit the U.S. embasy in any third world country for one day to understand the multitudes that camp out each day in the hope of getting a visa, valid for even just one day.

                  •  But you're not exaggerating at all! (0+ / 0-)

                    so all the Europeans would move here? You did say the "entire planet". So you must be one of these people who thinks the entire planet is a shithole because you've never traveled.

                    I personally know three different Indian American families that now live in India. Willingly. And several Chinese that have gone home. And the statistics on Mexicans are very telling right now - we have a reverse migration.

                    ARe their people that want to come here? Of course. But if they're "camping out" to get a "one day visa" then I would suggest the problem is with the logistics of the US immigration service. If people are accepted or denied in a transparent, fair manner the issue of how to handle immigration becomes very routine.

                    The racists on this thread who want to slam the door - well, they aren't interested in the logistics. They just want to keep the brown people out.

                    I was paid to post this comment by my cat, but he's a deadbeat.

                    by decembersue on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 04:02:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Uncalled for (6+ / 0-)

      Not HR worthy but close.

      Diarist made a reasoned arguments you may disagree but that doesn't warrant attacking him.  If you want to attack true bigots why not try here instead?  

      Sunshine on my shoulders...

      by pkbarbiedoll on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:15:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  constant immigrant-bashing from this diarest (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, Garrett, decembersue

        thanks for comment pkbarbiedoll, i agree this one diary wouldn't deserve such a harsh response. but this diarest is like Lou Dobbs, they constantly come here and blame immigration for all our nation's problems. it is obvious from this constant immigrant-bashing that IP is at very least a xenophobe, and seems more like an obvious racist. sorry, i'm not willing to play nice with people who blame some of the least fortunate among us for all our problems. it is shameful and disgusting, and i'm going to point that out every time i see it.

        secession = treason. Haters are Traitors!

        by catchaz on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:19:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Odd - (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, catchaz, HeadnHeart

    A country of immigrants discriminating against the original inhabitants and other immigrants.

    Must be another one of those " -isms "

    I'm the person your mother warned you about.

    by Unique Material on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:10:14 PM PDT

  •  Where is the part about immigration adding to the (5+ / 0-)

    unemployment? I don't see the evidence. You've provided some statistics but didn't show the connection. Should we just assume that absent immigrants non-immigrants would be getting those jobs? Where is the regional breakdown? Your breakdown by industry? Your control for racism?

    Rub raw the sores of discontent - Saul Alinsky

    by JayGR on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:11:48 PM PDT

    •  Facts..IP, don't need no stinking facts (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doc2, Sentido, catchaz

      he works off re-posting studies and policy reports from FAIR and CIS... quotes extensively from Camarota(CIS), Stein(FAIR), and Borges(CIS) ...all highly questionable and discredited sources of anti-immigrant(legal and illegal) propaganda. These are not reputable sources...they're the equivalent of the "new earthers", "creationists," or "global-warming deniers" of the immigration debate.... and should be  taken no more seriously than those others are in their respective debates.

    •  With 15 million unemployed (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DaleA, IT Professional, LegendClick

      in virtually every occupational group throughout the country (with the possible exception of health care) the proof comes from an understanding of arithmetic.

    •  Moreover... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      It's a fallacy that immigrants will NECESSARILY take job opportunities away from unemployed citizens.

      We issued visas in fiscal 2008 for 409,619 H-1B temporary workers, most of whom have at least a bachelor’s degree.

      What's the amount of non-immigrants with at least a bachelor’s degree?

      As long as it has been reported, most of the unemployed are workers laid off the car and construction industry. Those people don't have a bachelor degree and if they do, after years working in those company, they lost their skill and have to be retrained. Therefore, 409 619 H-1B temporary workers are not competing for the same jobs.

      Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate... leads to suffering...

      by JackLord on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:35:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The argument for job competition would be weaker (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, LegendClick

        if the recession were not so severe. GM is closing whole factories. Engineers will go as well as people on the shop floor. The financial industry is shedding jobs very rapidly. Newspapers are firing reporters because ad revenues are down. Just about every sector is downsizing and that costs jobs at all levels. As I said in the diary, the greatest pain is felt by the most vulnerable workers, but it is widespread. Somebody may have the detailed evidence you would like to see on professional level jobs, I haven't seen it.

  •  This is a very touchy subject (4+ / 0-)

    As a gay man, I view immigration as a method to bring in more social conservatives. And I have never seen this subject addressed outside the gay press. In California, a large community of Latvian immigrants, who are also Evangelical Christians, are in the forefront of homophobia. Up to and including violence directed at gay people. They were admitted under the fact that they were oppressed back home in Latvia. So, they came here and immediately started bashing GLBT's.

    Among the Prop8 stats, I recall seeing one that showed we did very well with native born voters but lost overwhelmingly with immigrants. So, because immigrants are frequently social conservatives, this Progressive supports cutting back on immigration. We have loads of social conservatives, we don't need to import more.

    Runs for cover.

  •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    We also admitted 104,618 H-2B seasonal non-agricultural workers  in 2008. H-2B workers take what used to be summer jobs for high school  and college students, but this year many of them could have provided a few months income for unemployed Americans trying to support a family.

    Americans can support a family getting paid 45 cents per 32 pound basket of tomatoes?

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. Ben Franklin

    by nokkonwud on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:22:27 PM PDT

  •  troll using stats from hate groups (0+ / 0-)

    IP worships racists like those who run FAIR. that's all you need to know. i don't know what's in his heart, i do know he supports racist hate groups like FAIR. that's all we need to know they're a troll.  

    secession = treason. Haters are Traitors!

    by catchaz on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:28:24 PM PDT

  •  I am all for legal immigrants... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, LegendClick

    illegal immigrants must be processed in accordance with the law as well as the employer lawbreakers and immigration reform should be passed...

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 01:42:25 PM PDT

  •  Business Week Magazine (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaleA, IowaPopulist, LegendClick

    Current Issue has an article on the lost generation of the unemployed. It will be very destructive to our society in general. When you have an army of 20 million people not part of society, destructive things can happen. Is it their fault? NO. They will vote for anyone who provides a solution. Did you see what happened at the town halls.
    In my area The Sheriff reports that people are committing crimes for medical treatment, one inmate $500,000 and rising. Hungry people will do desperate things. The only business prospering in my area are the guns and ammo stores.  

    •  It is a heartbreaking thing, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and most of those people don't seem to have advocates in the political process anymore. If you look at U-6 unemployment, which includes people who have given up looking, the numbers are running 20% or higher for many groups of Americans, and in the 30s and 40s for people with little education. The Democratic party needs to put those people first, the Republicans will never care.

  •  I hire via Craig's List (4+ / 0-)

    My usual add talks about digging with iron bars and jack hammering rocks.

    I start at $9

    After a couple of hours I delete the add and start sifting through the replies. Lots of college grads. I look for some sort of toughening experience too. There are a heck of a lot of people desparate to work for $9. Now I guess I could pay $7.20 couldn't I?

    I used to have exclusively illeagals, best quality hardest working, I pay all taxes and even holidays. My wages are always above the going rate.

    Now I hire only Americans or permanent residents. Young guys can't get food stamps.

    Things are real bad.

    I wish you folks would quit bashing the diarist and think about your countrymen.

    End of rant.

    "Don't fall or we both go" Derek Hersey

    by ban nock on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 02:08:57 PM PDT

  •  The FY 2008 numbers are pre-meltdown... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bgblcklab1, IowaPopulist, LegendClick it's a weak premise for a diary.  But I've recommended it because progressives myopically, dogmatically argue that immigration has no impact on employment or wage levels and it's an embarrassment to reason.  We owe ourselves, and the country, a fair-minded discussion about this.

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 03:06:21 PM PDT

    •  Thank you. I wish there were more recent numbers, (0+ / 0-)

      but the government waits a very long time to release immigration data. There is no reason the numbers could not be released every month. Because they impact the job market, forcing people to make evaluations with year-old data is ridiculous.

      My purpose in writing this and my two earlier diaries is to help people to think seriously about these things. We are going to have to make important decisions, and I hope they will be informed decisions leavened by the facts, rather than purely emotional decisions that ignore things that we may later wish we had considered.

  •  They're taking our jerbs! (0+ / 0-)

    H/T to South Park.

    But seriously, immigrants are, like most of us these days, down at the low levels of consumerism.  Like most of us, they have to spend virtually everything they earn just to stay afloat, which means they help the economy churn along even when the big banks don't want to lend.  And they buy goods and services, just like the rest of us.

    Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Ezekial 23 20 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 03:29:59 PM PDT

    •  An immigrant needs a job in order to spend, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and my point is that, in our current high-unemployment economy, a guy who arrives tomorrow can only get that new job by denying it to an unemployed person who is already here. Money doesn't grow on trees, and a pay check can only be spent once.

      •  The more people there are (0+ / 0-)

        The more jobs you need to supply their needs.  Demand stimulates job growth.

        Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

        by Ezekial 23 20 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 at 04:59:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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