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The following is an excerpt from an article instructing Law Enforcement personnel how to explain to the media why Taser victims die from Excited Delirium, a non-existent medical condition.

When law enforcement administrators are confronted by the
media event surrounding a Sudden In-Custody Death (SICD), they
often do not know what to say. Many times, what the chief says
during an unplanned media event will haunt that chief for a long
time and provide a basis for unpleasant cross-examination during
a civil trial.

Police & Security News; SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER 2007 VOL. 23 ISSUE 5 (PDF)

The article deals with language and terms.

For example, do not say, "The officer shot
the man with an ECD." ECDs are not firearms, but the word "shot"
will imply that notion. Instead, say the ECD was "deployed." Also,
do not use the word "tased," as this not only negatively impacts
the trademark, TASER
, but it also helps to perpetuate the use of
this improper word, and it sounds unprofessional in reports and in
print. Again, simply say, "deployed."

A Taser that twice shocked Brian Cardall contributed to or caused heart irregularities in the 32-year-old man that led to his death on the side of a southern Utah highway in June, the Utah Medical Examiner's Office has ruled.

The Salt Lake Tribune

Of the 152 Taser-related deaths documented by Amnesty International:

         o Most of those who died in custody were unarmed and were not posing a serious threat to police officers, members of the public, or themselves
         o Those who died were generally subjected to repeated or prolonged shocks
         o Use of the Taser was often accompanied by the use of restraints and/or chemical incapacitant sprays
         o Many of those who died had underlying health problems, such as heart conditions or mental illness, or were under the influence of drugs
         o Most of those who died went into cardiac or respiratory arrest at the scene

Amnesty International

Thompson, one of multiple officers on the scene, waited 42 seconds after arriving before he deployed a Taser on a manic and confused Cardall, according to 911 recordings.

The 156-pound Cardall is heard screaming for about five seconds after Thompson first deploys a Taser on him. After a two-second pause, Thompson deploys the Taser on Cardall again. He says in the recordings Cardall had tried to get up.

The Salt Lake Tribune

Excited Delirium:
This is often used as the cause of death. In fact, there is no such thing. The Taser aficionados use this hogwash to train public affairs officers to deceive the public.

Contrary to what many journalists believe (or were told), the
brain disorder of excited delirium is not a new label for a sudden
death and was not coined by TASER International, Inc., the leading
manufacturer of ECDs. The phenomena of excited delirium
was first described in British medical literature in 1650. The term
"excited delirium" can be found in United States’ medical treatises
as early as 1881 with the concept first being presented and
published in America by Dr. Luther Bell in 1849; he invested over
12 years evaluating patients with this peculiar form of delirium
(Bell’s Mania). Repopularized by Doctors Wetli and Fishbain during
the cocaine crazy 1980s when they were medical examiners in
Miami, FL, the term has expanded to include more than simply
delirium induced by chronic cocaine abuse. According to Dr.
Charles Wetli (Ret.), Chief Medical Examiner and Director of Forensic
Sciences for Suffolk County (Eastern Long Island, NY), the
causes of excited delirium could be metabolic (e.g., low blood
sugar); pharmacologic (e.g., cocaine); infectious (e.g., meningitis);
and/or psychological (e.g., underlying psychiatric illness).

Police & Security News; SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER 2007 VOL. 23 ISSUE 5 (PDF)

In other words, the cause of death is from an unknown pre-existing condition that has nothing to do with the fact that the victim was "SHOT", resulting in the embedding of two # 8 Eagle Claw fish hooks into the victim's body tissue, followed by being "TASED" with 50,000 volts of electricity.

Christensen (the medical examiner) said Cardall did not die from excited delirium, a syndrome often cited as a cause of death when someone is agitated or delirious and then dies after forcefully being taken into custody. ...Christensen's report states that prongs from a Taser a Hurricane police officer deployed struck Cardall over his heart. While Christensen acknowledged other factors could have contributed to Cardall's death, he pointed out factors that indicate a Taser electrocuted a naked, unarmed Cardall.

The Salt Lake Tribune

Excited Delirium can't be found in medical textbooks, dictionaries or on lists of standard diagnoses. The fact that the disorder seems to manifest most often when people are in police custody, and is often diagnosed only after the victims die, exposes the "diagnosis" as bogus and an obvious attempt to evade responsibility.

The American Medical Association has "no official policy" on the disorder, according to AMA spokesperson Melissa Smith.

Coroners have been successfully pressured by Law Enforcement and TASER International, Inc. to use Excited Delirium as cause of death, but a few courts are beginning to see through the propaganda.

Any lawsuit filed by the Cardall family will face fierce contention from Taser International, which has only lost one case in the 97 lawsuits filed against the company since its inception in 1993, Tuttle said.

But the tide is beginning to turn, said California attorney Peter Williamson, who, along with co-counsel John Burton, recently won the first suit against Taser International.

A federal judge in the U.S. District Court for Northern California ordered Taser to pay $1.4 million in attorney fees to Williamson and Burton, who represented the family of Robert Heston, who was killed in 2005 after he was shocked multiple times while high on methamphetamine.

The 40-year-old man's father had called police for help to restrain his combative son. Five officers shocked Heston 25 times.

The Salt Lake Tribune

And in another recent case:

(CN) – The 11th Circuit rebuked Orlando officers for Tasering an unarmed man eight to 12 times in two minutes, causing his death. Judge Stanley Marcus said the repeated shocks were "grossly disproportionate to any threat posed and unreasonable under the circumstances.


Without warning, Fiorino Tasered him in the stomach, bringing him to the ground. Once the five-second pulse wore off, she Tasered him again. The witness said Oliver never got up after the first Tasering, and never hit, punched, kicked or threatened the officers.

    Oliver, who was lying on the hot asphalt, allegedly screamed that it was "too hot." Fioriono said she may have Tasered Oliver 11 or 12 times, explaining that she kept pulling the trigger until he stayed on the ground. Her Taser log showed eight times in two minutes, with each shock lasting five seconds.

...  "We agreed with the district court's determination that the force employed was so utterly disproportionate to the level of force reasonably necessary that any reasonable officer would have recognized that his actions were unlawful," the court concluded.
Courthouse News

Unfortunately, some courts are intimidated by TASER, Inc.

Last year, an Ohio judge ordered a medical examiner to remove Taser's name from three autopsies. The Summit County Medical Examiner's Office "offered no medical, scientific or electrical evidence to justify finding the stun gun was a factor in the deaths of two men in 2005 and another in 2006,"  The Arizona Republic reported in May 2008. Taser and the City of Akron had sued the medical examiner, claiming the examiners didn't have the proper education to decide whether Tasers contributed to the death.

The county's chief medical examiner contested the ruling, according to The Arizona Republic.

Taser also sued Indiana coroner Roland Kohr, who found the weapon contributed to a man's death in 2004.

Taser International dismisses what it calls misconceptions that the company targets medical examiners who make unflattering reports.

"This is simply not true," Tuttle said. "In the two instances that Taser has brought legal action regarding medical examiners, the lawsuits were to correct scientifically baseless opinions that resulted in very negative consequences to numerous entities and people."

Williamson disagrees. He said Taser intimidates medical examiners who find the stun guns lead to death.

"Very few medical examiners will stick their necks out on the line," he said.

No amount of training can account for the sadistic misuse of this torture instrument.  Even with proper training, an officer cannot possibly know his victim's medical history or know with certainty that when he/she deploys shoots someone, that the prongs meathooks will penetrate the victim where the peace officer intended.

Local media must avoid bullshit propaganda from TASER,Inc and Law Enforcement.
It is what it is.
The victim was shot with barbed hooks and electrocuted.  

These deaths will continue until Tasers are forever banned or become too expensive to deploy as a result of huge fines and legal fees.

Originally posted to Z. Woof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:15 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (168+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kimberley, JekyllnHyde, AggieDemocrat, RW, AaronInSanDiego, AlanF, rhfactor, Sprinkles, Emerson, karlpk, RAST, Shockwave, wu ming, Troutfishing, frisco, mataliandy, expatjourno, TheMomCat, magnetics, srkp23, sngmama, lilnubber, antirove, figbash, churchylafemme, snakelass, Magorn, hazzcon, chickeee, RebeccaG, dkmich, econlibVA, AllisonInSeattle, Steven D, AaronBa, Josiah Bartlett, Sassy, nailbender, vcmvo2, joanneleon, kbman, marina, greycat, Halcyon, jhutson, Simplify, truong son traveler, Brooke In Seattle, devadatta, reflectionsv37, FunkyEntropy, neroden, playtonjr, jj24, Ekaterin, Snud, Land of Enchantment, zozie, begone, debedb, Mother Mags, third Party please, Showman, trashablanca, Hirodog, emeraldmaiden, ActivistGuy, kestrel9000, yinn, MTmofo, TalkieToaster, erratic, nonnie9999, paul2port, happy camper, sceptical observer, Demena, bl968, myrealname, dirtfarmer, zeke7237, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, Lovo, RantNRaven, Dreaming of Better Days, blueness, Picot verde, OHdog, Aaa T Tudeattack, AntKat, One Pissed Off Liberal, marykk, high coup haiku, dotsright, C Barr, camlbacker, possum, Wino, wildweasels, Matt Z, Kentucky Kid, jayden, akdude6016, vbdietz, Icarus Ascending, Uberbah, jnhobbs, Moderation, jhop7, carpunder, Got a Grip, eyesoars, willb48, vet, cville townie, rogerdaddy, Chacounne, elwior, alasmoses, Cassandra Waites, happymisanthropy, geomoo, Seamus D, shortgirl, jlms qkw, FudgeFighter, maggiejean, SciMathGuy, Bule Betawi, world dancer, ARS, holger smed, banjolele, Carol in San Antonio, ZilV, DClark4129, allep10, IreGyre, EmmaKY, mahakali overdrive, Tommymac, Mayken, Its the Supreme Court Stupid, oceanrain, freeport beach PA, polar bear, samanthab, SoCalHobbit, science nerd, SuperBowlXX, bluebuckaroo, island in alabama, coachjdc, soothsayer99, BlueHead, trs, molunkusmol, bobsc, lizard people, Vtdblue, J Edward, stevie avebury, cailloux, lincoln deschain, all circuits are busy, Dakit, Jerry Melton, CuriousBoston

    "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

    by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:15:40 PM PST

  •  I've already told my wife that if I ever (17+ / 0-)

    am confronted by police the first words out of my wife will be: "I am now going to comply with every command. Use your TASER on me and my wife and child will be set for life with the money you and your dept. will be giving them for wrongful injury/death. Now...please repeat your command and choose your words slowly."

    "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

    by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:23:05 PM PST

    •  Good idea if (26+ / 0-)

      you can say that in 41 seconds.

      Thompson, one of multiple officers on the scene, waited 42 seconds after arriving before he deployed a Taser on a manic and confused Cardall, according to 911 recordings.

      "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

      by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:27:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  By the (11+ / 0-)

      the first words out of my wife

      {{{Sheepish Grin}}}
      Oooops...I meant "The first words out of my mouth."
      At least my mind was in the right place.
      Wife and kid first...always.

      "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

      by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:33:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      InsultComicDog, drache, Jerry Melton

      Wouldn't it be more prudent and adult to simply do what the officer tells you - without the histrionics?

      There would be a lot fewer Tasings if people simply dropped the disrespectful attitudes and did what the law enforcement officer asked you without being a smart-alek or trying to impress them with your Law & Order 'legal education' which, in the final analysis, is worth precisely zero.

      I don't have "issues". I have a full subscription!

      by GayIthacan on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:22:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly...Notice the last line: (14+ / 0-)

        Now...please repeat your command and choose your words slowly."

        I've never had a problem in my life precisely because I've done what you just described.
        I am now 43...that was years ago, before they had TASER torture devices and before every cop looked like he just stepped out of boot camp.
        I now know too much and don't trust any "law enforcement official" to do the right thing.
        Hence the warning or "histrionics". I'll be goddamned if some single-digit IQ with a double-digit income is gonna torture or kill me because he can.
        That's called being older, wiser and less willing to put up with bullshit.

        "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

        by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:32:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you really just want to get out of the (0+ / 0-)

          situation pain-free, you should just say "yes, officer" or "yes, sir" to his every command. Telling him that he better repeat his commands and choose his words slowly is quite obviously going to increase your chances of a bad outcome.

          I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

          by doc2 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 05:16:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No, there wouldn't. (14+ / 0-)

        If people simply dropped the disrespectful attitudes and did what the law enforcement officer asked you, the "law enforcement officer" would just shoot you anyway.

        I know that's not what happens with the nice City of Ithaca or Village of Cayuga Heights cops, but that is what happens with the power-crazed jerk cops in much of the country.  Look at the people who are calmly restrained and then shot while restrained.

        I would expect it to have happened if the evidence-tampering, framing-innocent-people cops in our own local State Police Troop C had had tasers before they all went to prison for evidence-tampering.

        No, the solution is to get the criminal cops out of the system by any means necessary.

        -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

        by neroden on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:32:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (8+ / 0-)

          I agree. Any cop who uses a Taser for anything but the subduing of a dangerous suspect should be dismissed - and sued in civil court.

          I don't have "issues". I have a full subscription!

          by GayIthacan on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:45:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  A few weeks ago i was waiting at a drive through (13+ / 0-)

          It was late a night and The only other car was a big Cadillac Escalade that was taking a long time ordering.  I wasn't paying much attention, I'm letting my inner hippie guide me these days so waiting was no big deal.  They finally pulled around, I pulled up and ordered and pulled around behind the behemoth SUV.

          That's when it got interesting.

          I heard this guy reaming out the kid at the window.  It sounded like it started when this guy was ordering.  Now there are lots of assholes in North Florida and this guy could give lessons.  It was apparently so bad that the kid's bud who must have been waiting for his friend to get off work, came out and was telling the guy in the car that he needed to cool off.  Very non threatening manner.  

          Then the guy in the Cadillac Escalade showed his true colors...  He started hollering at the kid GET AWAY FROM THE CAR, I'M A SHERIFF WITH THE ST. JOHN'S COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT...

          The kid disappeared like lightening, so what happened?  Was it just the guy's yelling?  Or did he flash his gun or a taser like I suspect?

          Should I trust this guy with a taser?  HELL NO!!!

          Should I trust this guy with a gun?  HELL NO!!!

          Should I trust this guy with a BADGE?  HELL NO!!!

          This should be on Youtube.  The guy was asshole enough
          already but so much stuff at these restaurants is recorded and videotaped, he hit peak stupid.  If I realized what was going down, I would have recorded it on my cell phone and Youtubed it in a heartbeat.

          I guess my point is you can't trust a cop.  I know there are a whole lot of cops that are fine decent people and I could socialize and be friendly but I always be cautious, they're still a cop.

          FWIW, here's a 30 minute lecture on Youtube on why you don't want to talk to cops

          The guy lecturing is from Regents Law School so form your own opinion but it's an interesting lecture anyway.

          I am here to represent the democratic wing of the Democratic Party. Roar louder!

          by Josiah Bartlett on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:03:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  By the way... (9+ / 0-)


        disrespectful attitudes and being a smart-alek

        Could that also be defined as "I'm smarter than you, you know I'm smarter than you and you are trying to enforce an immoral law with a badge, a gun and a torture device because you were a hall monitor in high school?"

        One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws-Martin Luther King.

        If the guy in the crew cut with a badge wants to shock a hippie that's his problem. He will pay the price, not me.
        Peace ;-)>

        "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

        by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:40:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

          Yes, one can disobey unjust laws.

          But one may NOT avoid the consequences of said action.

          THAT is the point.

          You will note, i hope, that Rosa Parks did NOT argue with the police nor try to interfere with their lawful jobs when she was arrested.

          Civil disobedience is fine - but NOT when you disrespect and threaten those whose job is to enforce the laws - and to render you unthreatening in any situation where their lives are at risk or there is a chance you could injure them.

          In my mind, any response other than doing precisely what  law enforcement asks you to do is asking to be treated in a less-than-respectful manner. The most common words out of my mouth when the police ask me anything is 'sir' or 'ma'am' - depending on the gender of the officer doing the asking.

          I don't have "issues". I have a full subscription!

          by GayIthacan on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:49:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have always dealt with cops in a (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sngmama, snakelass, RebeccaG, Zwoof, Matt Z, Uberbah

            respectful manner, as you put it.
            That was over 15 years ago. Before George W. Bush. Before the explosion of the prison population simply to feed corporate greed and the authoritarian mindset.
            Bottom line...I don't trust them to do the right thing anymore. Therefore I don't respect them and I don't expect them to treat me properly even if I say "Sir" or "Ma'am".
            As long as you continue to enforce unjust laws or continue to volunteer to help fight unjust wars you have lost my respect. That's also why I stay out of IGTNT diary series now. I just can't go there and be true to myself at the same time.
            That's why I'm a DFH...always have been and always will be.
            With that I say goodnight and good luck.
            The only ass I kiss now is my wife's and my daughter's. The establishment in this country can go fuck itself...peacefully, of course.

            "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

            by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:00:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Cops have laws to obey. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            snakelass, rogerdaddy

            Why don't they have consequences?  Same reason Cheney, Wall Street and bankers have no consequences.  "They" are the establishment.  It is holier than thou and sacrosanct. We, oth, are worthless, irresponsible scum that needs to pull itself up by the bootstrap and be grateful and respectful that they don't kill us.  

            I don't argue, and I don't suck up.  I shut up, and I give them no permission for anything.  I don't trust cops, lawyers, or judges as far as I can throw them.

      •  That presumes they are capable of following (6+ / 0-)

        the command.

           Just my two cents,

        Planning a March for Accountability

        by Chacounne on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:56:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Err... revise that sentence... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle, rogerdaddy

      "I am now going to comply with every command. Use your TASER on me and my wife and child....

      ...just in case the police do what they think you're telling them to do before you get to finish the whole speech, 'kay?

      "Injustice wears ever the same harsh face wherever it shows itself." - Ralph Ellison

      by KateCrashes on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:16:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, you're right....they wouldn't comprehend (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        the obvious COMMA/PAUSE between "Use your TASER on me...{PAUSE}...and my wife and child"
        would own your ass.

        "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

        by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 11:17:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Isn't the point of TASERs (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eileen B, Derfel, elwior

    is that they are for the most part non-lethal?  How many more people would have been shot if the police officer hadn't deployed a TASER?

    I'm just playing devil's advocate here, what's the alternative for criminals who resist arrest and the officers feel threatened?

    Let's remember that we should care about people even after they're born. - A. Grayson

    by IL JimP on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:29:04 PM PST

    •  THEY ARE NOT NON-LETHAL (27+ / 0-)

      Sorry to shout, but non-lethal means basically no death.  You cannot be "for the most part" dead.

      "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

      by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:32:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the "for the most" means that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        people are getting tased every day and very few die.  I would think being shot with a bullet you have a much higher probability of dying.  So what's the answer?  Like everything else it's easy to say no, just ask our republican friends, and not provide ideas to fix the problem.  

        Let's remember that we should care about people even after they're born. - A. Grayson

        by IL JimP on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:35:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Item #1 (27+ / 0-)

                 o Most of those who died in custody were unarmed and were not posing a serious threat to police officers, members of the public, or themselves
                  o Those who died were generally subjected to repeated or prolonged shocks
                  o Use of the Taser was often accompanied by the use of restraints and/or chemical incapacitant sprays
                  o Many of those who died had underlying health problems, such as heart conditions or mental illness, or were under the influence of drugs
                  o Most of those who died went into cardiac or respiratory arrest at the scene

          "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

          by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:39:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  What's your idea of "very few" exactly? (7+ / 0-)

          If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

          by marykk on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:41:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  according to the diary (0+ / 0-)

            152 (which I agree is way too many) out of what thousands of uses a week.  I was comparing the use of the devices to how many times they are lethal.  I think this is a training issue where many officers probably don't realize that this could be a lethal use of force.

            Let's remember that we should care about people even after they're born. - A. Grayson

            by IL JimP on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:45:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There have been 457 (35+ / 0-)

              in America and Canada as of July 1, 2009.

              1. April 11 1985, Cornelius Garland Smith, 35, Los Angeles, California
              1. March 9 1993, Michael Bryant, 35, Los Angeles, California
              1. June 1, 1996: Scott Norberg, 32, Maricopa County, Arizona
              1. September 28, 1999: David Flores, 37, Fairfield, California
              1. May 14, 2000: Enrique Juarez Ochoa, 34, Bakersfield, California
              1. June 17, 2001: Mark Burkett, 18, Gainesville, Florida
              1. December 15, 2001: Hannah Rogers-Grippi, 6 months fetus, Chula Vista, California
              1. December 17, 2001: Marvin Hendrix, 27, Hamilton, Ohio
              1. December 21, 2001: Steven Vasquez, 40, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
              1. January 27, 2002: Vincent Delostia, 31, Hollywood, Florida
              1. February 12, 2002: Anthony Spencer, 35, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
              1. March 27, 2002: Henry Canady, 46, Hilliard, Florida
              1. May 17, 2002: Richard Baralla, 36, Pueblo, Colorado
              1. June 10, 2002: Eddie Alvarado, 32, Los Angeles, California
              1. June 15, 2002: Jason Nichols, 21, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
              1. June 28, 2002: Clever Craig, 46, Mobile, Alabama
              1. June 27, 2002: Fermin Rincon, 24, Fontana, California
              1. June 2002: Unidentified male, 39, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. July 19, 2002: Johnny Lozoya, Gardena, California
              1. July 19, 2002: Gordon Jones, 37, Windermere, Florida
              1. September 1, 2002: Frederick Webber, 44, Orange City, Florida
              1. November 7, 2002: Stephen Edwards, 59, Shelton, Washington
              1. March 16, 2003: Unidentified male, 31, Albuquerque, New Mexico
              1. April 16, 2003: Corey Calvin Clark, 33, Amarillo, Texas
              1. April 19, 2003: Terrence Hanna, 51, Burnaby, British Columbia
              1. May 10, 2003: Joshua Hollander, 22, Normal Heights, California
              1. June 9, 2003: Timothy Sleet, 44, Springfield Missouri
              1. July 22, 2003: Clayton Willey, 33, Prince George, British Columbia
              1. August 4, 2003: Troy Nowell, 51, Amarillo, Texas
              1. August 8, 2003: John Thompson, 45, Carrollton Township, Michigan
              1. August 17, 2003: Gordon Rauch, 39, Citrus Heights, California
              1. September 24, 2003: Ray Austin, 25, Gwinnett, Georgia
              1. September 29, 2003: Glenn Leyba, 37, Glendale, Colorado
              1. September , 2003: Clark Whitehouse, 34, Whitehorse, Yukon
              1. October 7, 2003: Roman Pierson, 40, Brea, California
              1. October 11, 2003: Dennis Hammond, 31, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
              1. October 21, 2003: Louis Morris, 50, Orlando, Florida
              1. November 6, 2003: James Borden, 47, Monroe County, Indiana
              1. November 10, 2003: Michael Johnson, 32, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
              1. November 11, 2003: Kerry O’Brien, 31, Pembroke Pines, Florida
              1. December 9, 2003: Curtis Lawson, 40, Unadilla, Georgia
              1. December 9, 2003: Lewis King, 39, St. Augustine, Florida
              1. February 4, 2004: David Glowczenski, 35, Southampton Village, New York
              1. February 12, 2004: Raymond Siegler, 40, Minneapolis, Minnesota
              1. February 21, 2004: Curt Rostengale, 44, Silverdale, Washington
              1. February 21, 2004: William Lomax, 26, Las Vegas, Nevada
              1. March 23, 2004: Perry Ronald, 28, Edmonton, Alberta
              1. March 28, 2004: Terry Williams, 45, Madison, Illinois
              1. April 1, 2004: Phillip LaBlanc, 36, Los Angeles, California
              1. April 16, 2004: Melvin Samuel, 28, Savannah, Georgia
              1. April 18, 2004: Alfredo Diaz, 29, Orange County, Florida
              1. April 27, 2004: Eric Wolle, 45, Washington Grove, Maryland
              1. May 1, 2004: Roman Andreichikov, Vancouver, British Columbia
              1. May 13, 2004: Peter Lamonday, 38, London, Ontario
              1. May 22, 2004: Henry Lattarulo, 40, Hillsborough, County Florida
              1. May 27, 2004: Frederick Williams, 31, Lawrenceville, Georgia
              1. May 30, 2004: Darryl Smith, 46, Atlanta, Georgia
              1. May 31, 2004: Anthony Oliver, 42, Orlando, Florida
              1. June 4, 2004: Jerry Pickens, 55, Bridge City, Louisiana
              1. June 9, 2004: James Cobb, 42, St. Paul, Minnesota
              1. June 9, 2004: Jacob Lair, 26, Sparks, Nevada
              1. June 16, 2004: Abel Ortega Perez, 36, Austin, Texas
              1. June 23, 2004: Robert Bagnell, 44, Vancouver, British Columbia
              1. June 24, 2004: Kris Lieberman, 32, Bushkill Township, Pennsylvania
              1. June, 2004: Bernard Christmas, 36, Dayton, Ohio
              1. July 3, 2004: Demetrius Tillman Nelson, 45, Okaloosa County, Florida
              1. July 11, 2004: Willie Smith, 48, Auburn, Washington
              1. July 17, 2004: Jerry Knight, 29, Mississauga, Ontario
              1. July 23, 2004: Milton Salazar, 29, Mesa Arizona
              1. August 2, 2004: Keith Tucker, 47, Las Vegas, Nevada
              1. August 8, 2004: Samuel Truscott, 43, Kingston, Ontario
              1. August 11, 2004: Ernest Blackwell, 29, St. Louis, Missouri
              1. August 11, 2004: David Riley, 41, Joplin, Missouri
              1. August 13, 2004: Anthony Lee McDonald, 46, Harrisburg, North Carolina
              1. August 16, 2004: William Teasley, 31, Anderson, South Carolina
              1. August 19, 2004: Richard Karlo, 44, Denver, Colorado
              1. August 20, 2004: Michael Sanders, 40, Fresno, California
              1. August 24, 2004: Lawrence Davis, 27, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. August 27, 2004: Jason Yeagley, 32, Winter Haven, Florida
              1. August 29, 2004: Michael Rosa, 38, Del Rey Oaks, California
              1. September 12, 2004: Samuel Wakefield, 22, Rio Vista, Texas
              1. September 15, 2004: Andrew Washington, 21, Vallejo, California
              1. September 20, 2004: Jon Merkle, 40, Miami, Florida
              1. October 4, 2004: Dwayne Dunn, 33, Lafayette, Louisiana
              1. November 2, 2004: Greshmond Gray, 25, LaGrange, Georgia
              1. November 2, 2004: Robert Guerrero, 21, Fort Worth, Texas
              1. November 7, 2004: Keith Raymond Drum, Clearlake, Califormnia
              1. November 8, 2004: Ricardo Zaragoza, 40, Elk Grove, California
              1. November 25, 2004: Charles Keiser, 47, Hartland Township, Michigan
              1. November 27, 2004: Byron Black, 39, Lee County, Florida
              1. December 4, 2004: Patrick Fleming, 35, Metairie, Louisiana
              1. December 15, 2004: Kevin Downing, 36, Hollywood, Florida
              1. December 17, 2004: Douglas Meldrum, 37, Wasatch County, Utah
              1. December 17, 2004: Lyle Nelson, 35, Columbia, Illinois
              1. December 23, 2004: Timothy Bolander, 31, Delray Beach, Florida
              1. December 23, 2004: Ronnie Pino, 31, Sacramento, California
              1. December 28, 2004: Christopher Hernandez, 19, Naples, Florida
              1. December 29, 2004: Jeanne Hamilton, 46, Palmdale, California
              1. December 30, 2004: David Cooper, 40, Marion County, Indiana
              1. January 2, 2005: Gregory Saulsbury, 30, Pacifica, California
              1. January 5, 2005: Dennis Hyde, 30, Akron, Ohio
              1. January 7, 2006: Carlos Claros Castro, 28, Davidson City, North Carolina
              1. January 8, 2005: Carl Trotter, 33, Pensacola, Florida
              1. January 10, 2005, Jerry Moreno, 33, Los Angeles, California
              1. January 28, 2005: James Edward Hudson, 33, Chickasha, Oklahoma
              1. January 31, 2005: Jeffrey Turner, 41, Lucas County, Ohio
              1. February 10, 2005: Ronald Alan Hasse, 54, Chicago, Illinois
              1. February 12, 2005: Robert Camba, 45, San Diego, California
              1. February 18, 2005: Joel Don Casey, 52, Houston, Texas
              1. February 20, 2005: Robert Heston, 40, Salinas, California
              1. March 3, 2005: Shirley Andrews, 38, Cincinnati, Ohio
              1. March 6, 2005: Willie Towns, 30, Deland, Florida
              1. March 12, 2005: Milton Woolfolk, 39, Lake City, Florida
              1. March 17, 2005: Mark Young, 25, Indianapolis, Indiana
              1. April 3, 2005: James Wathan Jr., 32, Delhi, California
              1. April 3, 2005: Eric Hammock, 43, Fort Worth, Texas
              1. April 8, 2005: Ricky Barber, 46, Carter County, Oklahoma
              1. April 22, 2005: John Cox, 39, Bellport, New York
              1. April 24 2005: Jesse Colter, 31, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. May 3, 2005: Keith Graff, 24, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. May 5, 2005: Kevin Geldart, 34, Moncton, New Brunswick
              1. May 6, 2005: Stanley Wilson, 44, Miami, Florida
              1. May 6, 2005: Lawrence Berry, 33, Jefferson Parish, Louisiana
              1. May 13, 2005: Vernon Young, 31, Union Township, Ohio
              1. May 17, 2005: Leroy Pierson, Rancho Cucamonga, California
              1. May 20, 2005: Randy Martinez, 40, Albuquerque, New Mexico
              1. May 23, 2005: Lee Marvin Kimmel, 38, Reading, Pennsylvania
              1. May 23, 2005: Richard Alverado, 38, Tustin, California
              1. May 26, 2005: Walter Lamont Seats, 23, Nashville, Tennessee
              1. May 28, 2005: Richard T. Holcomb, 18, Akron, Ohio
              1. May 28, 2005: Nazario J. Solorio, 38, Escondido, California
              1. June 4, 2005: Ravan Conston, 33, Sacramento, California
              1. June 7, 2005: Russell Walker, 47, Las Vegas, Nevada
              1. June 11, 2005: Horace Owens, 48, Fort Lauderdale, Florida
              1. June 13, 2005: Michael Anthony Edwards, 32, Palatka, Florida
              1. June 13, 2005: Shawn Pirolozzi, 30, Canton, Ohio
              1. June 14, 2005: Robert Earl Williams, 62, Waco, Texas
              1. June 24, 2005: Carolyn Daniels, 25, Fort Worth, Texas
              1. June 24, 2005: Melinda Kaye Neal, 33, Whitfield County, Georgia
              1. June 29, 2005: Pharoah Knight, 33, Miami, Florida
              1. June 30, 2005: Gurmeet Sandhu, 41, Surrey, B.C.
              1. July 1, 2005: James Foldi, 39, Beamsville, Ont.
              1. July 7, 2005: Rocky Brison, 41, Birmingham, Alabama
              1. July 12, 2005: Kevin Omas, 17, Euless, Texas
              1. July 15, 2005: Ernesto Valdez, 37, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. July 15, 2005: Paul Sheldon Saulnier, 42, Digby, Nova Scotia
              1. July 15, 2005: Otis G. Thrasher, 42, Butte, Montana
              1. July 17, 2005: Michael Leon Critchfield, 40, West Palm Beach, Florida
              1. July 18, 2005: Carlos Casillas Fernandez, 31, Santa Rosa, California
              1. July 23, 2005: Maury Cunningham, 29, Lancaster, South Carolina
              1. July 27, 2005: Terrence L. Thomas, 35, Rockville Centre, New York
              1. August 1, 2005: Brian Patrick O’Neal, San Jose, California
              1. August 3, 2005: Eric Mahoney, 33, Fremont, California
              1. August 4, 2005: Dwayne Zachary, 44, Sacramento, California
              1. August 5, 2005: Olsen Ogoddide, 38, Glendale, Arizona
              1. August 8, 2005: Unidentified male, 47, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. August 26, 2005: Shawn Norman, 40, Laurelville, Ohio
              1. August 27, 2005: Brian Lichtenstein, 31, Stuart, Florida
              1. September 18, 2005: David Anthony Cross, 44, Santa Cruz, California
              1. September 22, 2005: Timothy Michael Torres, 24, Sacramento, California
              1. September 24, 2005: Patrick Aaron Lee, 21, Nashville, Tennessee
              1. September 26, 2005: Michael Clark, 33, Austin, Texas
              1. October 13, 2005: Steven Cunningham, 45, Fort Myers, Florida
              1. October 20, 2005: Jose Perez, 33, San Leandro, California
              1. October 25, 2005: Timothy Mathis, 35, Loveland, Colorado
              1. November 1, 2005: Miguel Serrano, 35, New Britain, Connecticut
              1. November 13, 2005: Josh Brown, 23, Lafayette, Louisiana
              1. November 17, 2005: Jose Angel Rios, 38, San Jose, California
              1. November 20, 2005: Hansel Cunningham, 30, Des Plaines, Illinois
              1. November 26, 2005: Tracy Rene Shippy, 35, Fort Meyers, Florida
              1. November 30, 2005: Kevin Dewayne Wright, 39, Kelso, Washington
              1. December 1, 2005: Jeffrey Earnhardt, 47, Orlando, Florida
              1. December 7, 2005: Michael Tolosko, 31, Sonoma, California
              1. December 17, 2005: Howard Starr, 32, Florence, South Carolina
              1. December 24, 2005: Alesandro Fiacco, 33, Edmonton, Alberta
              1. December 29, 2005: David Moss, 26, Omaha, Nebraska
              1. January 3, 2006: Roberto Gonzalez, 34, Waukegan, Illinois
              1. January 5, 2006: Matthew Dunlevy, 25, Laguna Beach, California
              1. January 13, 2006: Daryl Dwayne Kelley, 29, Houston, Texas
              1. January 16, 2006: Shmekia Lewis (female), 24, Beaumont, Texas
              1. January 22, 2006: Nick Ryan Hanson, 24, Ashland, Oregon
              1. January 25, 2006: Murray Bush, Metairie, Louisiana
              1. January 27, 2006: Jorge Luis Trujillo, San Jose, California
              1. January 28, 2006: Karl W. Marshall, 32, Kansas City, Missouri
              1. January 29, 2006 Benites Sichero, 39, Spokane County, Washington
              1. January 31, 2006: Jaime Coronel, Castroville, California
              1. February 6, 2006: Jessie Williams Jr., 40, Harrison County, Mississippi
              1. February 13, 2006: Darval Smith, New Orleans, Louisiana
              1. February 19, 2006: Gary Bartley, 36, Mandeville, Louisiana
              1. February 24, 2006: Samuel Hair, 48, Fort Pierce, Florida
              1. March 4, 2006: Melvin Anthony Jordan, 27, Norman, Oklahoma
              1. March 8, 2006: Robert R. Hamilton, 42, St. Augustine, Florida
              1. March 18, 2006: Otto Zehm, 35, Spokane, Washington
              1. March 18, 2006, Cedric Davis, 26, Merced County, California
              1. March 20, 2006: Timothy Grant, 46, Portland, Oregon
              1. March 24, 2006: Theodore Rosenberry, 35, Hagerstown, Maryland
              1. April 5, 2006: Thomas Clint Tipton, 34, Clearwater, Florida
              1. April 15, 2006: Nick Mamino Jr., 41, St. Louis, Missouri
              1. April 16, 2006: Billy Ray Cook, 39, Dublin, North Carolina
              1. April 16, 2006: Juan Manuel Nunez III, 27, Lubbock, Texas
              1. April 18, 2006: Richard McKinnon, 52, Cumberland County, North Carolina
              1. April 21, 2006: Alvin Itula, 35, Salt Lake City, Utah
              1. April 24, 2006: Jose Romero, 23, Dallas, Texas
              1. April 24, 2006: Emily Marie Delafield, 56, Green Cove Springs, Florida
              1. May 1, 2006: Jeremy Davis, 24, Bellmead, Texas
              1. May 7, 2006: Kenneth Cleveland, 63, Ashtabula, Ohio
              1. May 25, 2006: Brian Davis, 43, Los Angeles, California
              1. June 4, 2006: Felipe Herrera, 48, Las Vegas, Nevada
              1. June 13, 2006: Jerry Preyer, 43, Pensacola, Florida
              1. June 18, 2006: Jason Troy Dockery, 31, Coolville, Tennessee
              1. June 21, 2006: Kenneth Eagleton, 43, Crosby, Texas
              1. June 21, 2006: Joseph Stockdale, 26, Indianapolis, Indiana
              1. June 24, 2006: John Martinez, San Jose, California
              1. July 3, 2006: Jermail Williams, 32, South Bend, Indiana
              1. July 7, 2006: Michael Deon Babers, 26, Shreveport, Louisiana
              1. July 8, 2006: Christopher Tull, 36, Cincinnati, Ohio
              1. July 9, 2006: Nickolos Cyrus, 29, Mukwonago, Wisconsin
              1. July 11, 2006: Jesus Negron, 29, New Britain, Connecticut
              1. July 20, 2006: Mark McCullaugh, 28, Akron, Ohio
              1. July 23, 2006: Shannon Johnson, 37, Pittsboro, North Carolina
              1. August 2, 2006: Anthony Jones, 39, Merced, California
              1. August 4, 2006: Ryan Michael Wilson, 22, Lafayette, Colorado
              1. August 8, 2006: Curry McCrimmon, 26, Melbourne, Florida
              1. August 8, 2006: James Nunez, 27, Santa Ana, California
              1. August 9, 2006: Glen Thomas, 33, Wabasso, Florida
              1. August 17, 2006: Raul Gallegos-Reyes, 34, Centennial, Colorado
              1. August 21, 2006: Timothy Picard, 41, Woonsocket, Rhode Island
              1. August 23, 2006: Noah Lopez,25, Fort Worth, Texas
              1. August 30, 2006: Jason Doan, 28, Red Deer, Alberta
              1. September 1, 2006: Juan Soto, Jr., 39, Liberal, Kansas
              1. September 4, 2006, Jesus Mejia, 33, Los Angeles, California
              1. September 5, 2006: Larry Noles, 52, Louisville, Kentucky
              1. September 8, 2006: Perry Simmons, 35, Montgomery, Alabama
              1. September 13, 2006: Laborian Simmons, 24, Marion County, Florida
              1. September 17, 2006: Marcus Roach-Burris, 42, Menasha, Wisconsin
              1. September 17, 2006: James Philip Chasse Jr., 42, Portland, Oregon
              1. September 29, 2006: Joseph Kinney, 36, Madison Twp., Ohio
              1. September 30, 2006: Vardan Kasilyan, 29, Las Vegas, Nevada
              1. September 30, 2006: John David Johnson III, 27, Orange Park, Florida
              1. October 1, 2006: Kip Darrell Black, 38, North Charleston, South Carolina
              1. October 5, 2006: Michael Templeton, 50, Jonesboro, Arkansas
              1. October 6, 2006: Herman Carroll, 31, Houston, Texas
              1. October 9, 2006: James Simons, 35, Lincoln Park, Michigan
              1. October 19, 2006: James Lewis, 37, Las Vegas, Nevada
              1. October 19, 2006: Nicholas Brown, Milford, Connecticut
              1. October 22, 2006: Jordan Case, 20, Tualatin, Oregon
              1. October 22, 2006: Eddie Charles Ham Jr., 30, Montgomery, Alabama
              1. October 23, 2006: Michael Todd Gleim, 40, Milford, Ohio
              1. October 29, 2006: Roger Holyfield, 17, Jerseyville, Illinois
              1. October 30, 2006: Jeremy Foos, 29, Columbus, Ohio
              1. November 9, 2006: William Jobe, 40, Federal Way, Washington
              1. November 14, 2006: Timothy Wayne Newton, 43, Rocky Mount, North Carolina
              1. November 14, 2006: Darren Faulkner, 41, Southaven, Mississippi
              1. December 3, 2006: Briant K. Parks, 39, Columbus, Ohio
              1. December 17, 2006: Terrill Enard, 29, Lafayette, Louisiana
              1. December 30, 2006: Daniel Walter Quick, 43, Magalia, California

              ???. January 2007: James Barber, 25, Ottawa, Ontario

              1. January 5, 2007: Calvin Thompson, 42, Gastonia, North Carolina
              1. January 6, 2007: Douglas John Ilten, 45, Fort Pierce, Florida
              1. January 7, 2007: Blondel Lassegue, 38, Queen’s, New York
              1. January 9, 2007: Pete Carlos Madrid, 44, Fresno, California
              1. January 17, 2007: Keith Kallstrom, 56, Milan, Michigan
              1. January 18, 2007: Andrew J. Athetis, 18, Gilbert, Arizona
              1. January 29, 2007: Michael Keohan, 45, Huntingdon Park, California
              1. January 30, 2007: Christopher L. McCargo, 43, Dayton, Ohio
              1. February 11, 2007: Stephen Krohn, 44, Mesa, Arizona
              1. February 21, 2007: Martin Mendoza, 43, Oceanside, California
              1. March 13, 2007: Muszack Nazaire, 24, East Naples, Florida
              1. March 15, 2007: Randy Buckey, 42, Marion, Ohio
              1. March 16, 2007: Ryan Lee Myers, 40, Essex, Maryland
              1. March 17, 2007: David Brown, 47, Park Forest, Illinois
              1. March 17, 2007: Unidentified male, West Covina, CA
              1. March 23, 2007: Sergio Galvan, 35, San Antonio, Texas
              1. April 10, 2007: Eugene Donjuall Gilliam, 22, Prattville, Alabama
              1. April 11, 2007: Roberto Perez, 25, Indio, California
              1. April 14, 2007: Unidentified male, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. April 22, 2007: David Mills, 26, Hamden, Connecticut
              1. April 23, 2007: Unidentified male, Houston, Texas
              1. April 24, 2007: Louis Jermaine Broomfield, 35, Charleston, South Carolina
              1. April 24, 2007: Walter Heller, 55, Santa Rosa, California
              1. April 24, 2007: Uywanda Peterson, 43, Baltimore, Maryland
              1. April 30, 2007: Roy Hamner, 59, Pearl, Mississippi
              1. May 5, 2007: Daniel Bradley Young, 33, Seminole, Florida
              1. May 7, 2007: Robert A. Keske, 45, Seminole, Florida
              1. May 12, 2007: Trent A. Yohe, 37, Spokane, Washington
              1. May 12, 2007: Jeffry Young, 54, Bremerton, Washington
              1. May 14, 2007: Terrill Heath, 31, Baltimore, Maryland
              1. May 15, 2007: Chance W. Shrum, 20 years old, Iola, Kansas
              1. May 16, 2007: Patrick D. Hagans, 42, Valleyview, Ohio
              1. May 19, 2007: Milisha Thompson, 35, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
              1. May 22, 2007: Kevin DeWayne Hill, 39, Knoxville, Tennessee
              1. May 23, 2007: Raymundo Guerrerro Garcia, 33, Simi Valley, California
              1. May 25, 2007: Steve Salinas, 47, San Jose, California
              1. May 26, 2007: Marcus D. Skinner, 22, Seat Pleasant, Maryland
              1. May 29, 2007: Doyle Moniki Jackson, 34, Benton Harbor, Indiana
              1. May 29, 2007: Ramel Henderson, 51, San Diego, California
              1. June 19, 2007: Juan Flores Lopez, 47, San Angelo, Texas
              1. July 2, 2007: Richard Baisner, 36, Pasadena, California
              1. July 8, 2007: Nathaniel Cobbs Jr., 25, Newburgh, New York
              1. July 16, 2007: Albert Romero, 47, Denver, Colorado
              1. July 20, 2007: Jermaine Thompson, 36, Kansas City, Missouri
              1. July 25, 2007: Carlos Rodriguez, 27, Atlanta, Georgia
              1. July 29, 2007: Ronald Marquez, 49, Phoenix, Arizona
              1. August 2, 2007: Clyde Patrick, 44, Birmingham, Alabama
              1. August 4, 2007: Gefery Johnston, 42, Chicago, Illinois
              1. August 4, 2007: Stephen Spears, 49, Detroit, Michigan
              1. August 4, 2007: James Barnes, 21, Omaha, Nebraska
              1. August 11, 2007: Craig Berdine, 37, Fremont, Ohio
              1. August 14, 2007: Rafael Forbes, 21, Jackson, Mississippi
              1. August 15, 2007: James Wells, 43, Waterford, California (no. 275)
              1. August 18, 2007: Thomas Campbell, 50, Baltimore, Maryland
              1. August 23, 2007: Chad Cekas, 27, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
              1. August 26, 2007: Glenn Shipman Jr., 44, Portland, Oregon
              1. September 3, 2007: Earl Guerrant, 47, Golf Manor, Ohio
              1. September 3, 2007: Charles Gordon, 26, Vallejo, California
              1. September 9, 2007: Jorge Renteria Terrquiz, 25, Anaheim, California
              1. September 20, 2007: Claudio Castagnetta, 32, Quebec City, Quebec
              1. October 1, 2007: Samuel Baker, 59, Quitman, Georgia
              1. October 1, 2007: Keith White, 44, Kansas City, Kansas
              1. October 12, 2007: Michael Patrick Lass, 28, Orange County, California
              1. October 14, 2007: Robert Dziekanski, 40, Richmond, BC
              1. October 14, 2007: Donald Clark Grant, 54, Asheville, North Carolina
              1. October 17, 2007: Quilem Registre, 39, Montreal, Quebec
              1. November 1, 2007: Seldon Deshotels, 56, Lake Charles, Louisiana
              1. November 2, 2007: Stefan McMinn, 44, Hendersonville, North Carolina
              1. November 7, 2007: Roger Brown, 40, Miami, Florida
              1. November 16, 2007: Paul Carlock, 57, Springfield, Illinois
              1. November 18, 2007: Jesse Saenz, 20, Raton, New Mexico
              1. November 18, 2007: Jarrel Gray, 20, Frederick, Maryland
              1. November 18, 2007: Christian Allen, 21, Springfield, Florida
              1. November 20, 2007: Conrad Lowman, Jacksonville, Florida
              1. November 22, 2007: Howard Hyde, 45, Halifax, Nova Scotia
              1. November 24, 2007: Robert Knipstrom, 36, Chilliwack, British Columbia
              1. November 29, 2007: Ashley R. Stephens, 28, Ocala, Florida
              1. November 30, 2007: Cesar Silva, 32, Los Angeles, California
              1. December 10, 2007: Leroy Patterson Jr., 41, Walton County, Georgia
              1. January 2, 2008: Brandon Smiley, 27, Mobile, Alabama
              1. January 5, 2008: Ryan Rich, 33, Las Vegas, Nevada
              1. January 9, 2008: Otis C. Anderson, 36, Fayetteville, North Carolina
              1. January 11, 2008: Xavier Jones, 29, Coral Gables, Florida
              1. January 15, 2008: Mark Backlund, 29, New Brighton, Minnesota
              1. January 17, 2008: Baron Pikes, 21, Winnfield, Louisiana
              1. January 18, 2008: Daniel Hanrahan, 44, Staten Island, New York
              1. February 3, 2008: Louis Cryer, 32, Port Arthur, Texas
              1. February 3, 2008: Joseph Davis, 50, Brandon, Mississippi
              1. February 7, 2008: Richard Earl Abston, 53, Merced, California
              1. February 19, 2008: Garrett Sean Farn, 41, Bakersfield, California
              1. February 26, 2008: Barron Harvey Davis, 44, Mayes County, Oklahoma
              1. March 4, 2008: Christopher Jackson, 37, Clay, New York
              1. March 6, 2008: Javier Aguilar, 46, Roswell, New Mexica
              1. March 18, 2008: Roberto Gonzalez, 24, Chicago, Illinois
              1. March 20, 2008: Darryl Wayne Turner, 17, Charlotte, North Carolina
              1. March 21, 2008: James Garland, 41, Deerfield Beach, Florida
              1. March 29, 2008: Henry Bryant, 35, Indianapolis, Indiana
              1. March 30, 2008: Walter Edward Haake Jr., 59, Topeka, Kansas
              1. April 2, 2008: Jason Jesus Gomez, 35, Santa Ana, California
              1. April 6, 2008: Yvelt Occean, 31, New Kent County, Virginia
              1. April 22, 2008: Uriah Samson Dach, 26, Richmond, California
              1. April 24, 2008: Kevin Piskura, 24, Cincinnati, Ohio
              1. April 24, 2008: Dewayne Chatt, 39, Memphis, Tennessee
              1. April 27, 2008: Paul Thompson, 24, Greensboro, North Carolina
              1. April 28, 2008: Jermaine Ward, 28, Jackson, Tennessee
              1. May 4, 2008: Joe Kubat, 21, St. Paul, Minnesota
              1. May 6, 2008: James S. Wilson, 22, Alton, Missouri
              1. May 28, 2008: Ricardo Manuel Abrahams, 44, Woodland, California
              1. May 31, 2008: Robert Ingram, 27, Raceland, Louisiana
              1. June 5, 2008: Willie Maye, 43, Birmingham, Alabama
              1. June 6, 2008: Donovan Graham, 39, Meriden, Connecticut
              1. June 8, 2008: Quintrell T. Brannon, 25, Vincennes, Indiana
              1. June 9, 2008: Tony Curtis Bradway, 26, Brooklyn, New York
              1. June 23, 2008: Jeffrey Marreel, 36, Norfolk, Ontario
              1. June 24, 2008: Ernest Graves, 26, Rockford, Illinois
              1. June 27, 2008: Nicholas Cody, 27, Dothan, Alabama
              1. July 2, 2008: Isaac Bass, 34, Louisville, Kentucky
              1. July 4, 2008: Othello Pierre, 23, Baton Rouge, Louisiana
              1. July 8, 2008: Samuel DeBoise, 29, St. Louis, Missouri
              1. July 8, 2008: Carlos Vargas, 42, San Bernardino, California
              1. July 14, 2008: Marion Wilson Jr., 52, Houston, Texas
              1. July 14, 2008: Deshoun Keyon Torrence, 18, Long Beach, California
              1. July 22, 2008: Michael Langan, 17, Winnipeg, Manitoba
              1. July 23, 2008: Richard Smith, 46, Dallas, Texas
              1. July 26, 2008: Anthony Davidson, Statesville, 29, North Carolina
              1. August 4, 2008: Jerry Jones, 45, Beaumont, Texas
              1. August 4, 2008: Andre Thomas, 37, Swissvale, Pennsylvania
              1. August 2, 2008: Lawrence Rosenthal, 54, Hemet, California
              1. August 10, 2008: Kiethedric Hines, 31, Rockford, Illinois
              1. August 15, 2008: Kenneth Oliver, 45, Miami, Florida
              1. August 25, 2008: Ronald Adkisson, 59, Creston, Iowa
              1. August 29, 2008: Stanley James Harlan, 23, Moberly, Missouri
              1. September 3, 2008: Prince Swayzer, 38, San Jose, California
              1. September 3, 2008: Andy Tran, 32, Garden Grove, California
              1. September 11, 2008: Roney Wilson, 46, Hillsborough, Florida
              1. September 17, 2008: Sean Reilly, 42, Mississauga, Ontario
              1. September 19, 2008: Gabriel Bitterman, 23, Lincoln, Nebraska
              1. September 25, 2008: Iman Morales, 35, New York, New York
              1. September 30, 2008: Frank Frachette, 49, Langley, BC
              1. October 1, 2008: Jose Anibal Amaro, 45, Orange County, Florida
              1. October 18, 2008: Homer Taylor, 39, Chicago, Illinois
              1. October 29, 2008: Trevor Grimolfson, 38, Edmonton, Alberta
              1. October 31, 2008: Marlon Oliver Acevedo, 35, Riverside, California
              1. November 2, 2008: Gordon Walker Bowe, 30, Calgary, Alberta
              1. November 3, 2008: Adren Maurice Turner, 44, Mexia, Texas
              1. November 10, 2008: Guy James Fernandez, 42, Santa Rosa, California
              1. December 3, 2008: Leroy Hughes, 52, Covington, Kentucky
              1. December 9, 2008: Quincy Smith, 24, Minneapolis, Minnesota
              1. December 19, 2008: Edwin Rodriguez, 26, San Jose, California
              1. December 21, 2008: Nathan Vaughn, 39, Santa Rosa, California
              1. December 24, 2008: Mark Green, 46, Houston, Texas
              1. January 8, 2009: Derrick Jones, 17, Martinsville, Virginia
              1. January 11, 2009: Rodolfo Lepe, 31, Bakersfield, California
              1. January 22, 2009: Roger Redden, 52, Soddy Daisy, Tennessee
              1. February 2, 2009: Garrett Jones, 45, Stockton, California
              1. February 11, 2009: Richard Lua, 28, San Jose, California
              1. February 13, 2009: Rudolph Byrd, Age Unknown, Thomas County, Florida
              1. February 13, 2009: Michael Jones, 43, Iberia, Louisiana
              1. February 14, 2009: Chenard Kierre Winfield, 32, Los Angeles, California
              1. February 28, 2009: Robert Lee Welch, 40, Conroe, Texas
              1. March 22, 2009: Brett Elder, 15, Bay City, Michigan
              1. March 26, 2009: Marcus D. Moore, 40, Freeport, Illinois
              1. April 1, 2009: John J. Meier Jr., 48, Tamarac, Florida
              1. April 6, 2009: Ricardo Varela, 41, Fresno, California
              1. April 10, 2009: Robert Mitchell, 16, Detroit, Michigan
              1. April 13, 2009: Craig Prescott, 38, Modesto, California
              1. April 16, 2009: Gary A. Decker, 50, Tuscon, Arizona
              1. April 18, 2009: Michael Jacobs Jr., 24, Fort Worth, Texas
              1. April 30, 2009: Kevin LaDay, 35, Lumberton, Texas
              1. May 4, 2009: Gilbert Tafoya, 53, Holbrook, Arizona
              1. May 6, 2009: Grant William Prentice, 40, Brooks, Alberta
              1. May 17, 2009: Jamaal Ray Valentine, 27, La Marque, Texas
              1. May 23, 2009: Gregory Rold, 37, Salem, Oregon
              1. June 9, 2009: Brian Layton Cardall, 32, Hurricane, Utah
              1. June 13, 2009: Dwight Jerome Madison, 48, Baltimore, Maryland
              1. June 20, 2009: Derek Kairney, 36, South Windsor, Connecticut
              1. June 29, 2009: Shawn Iinuma, 37, Fontana, California
              1. July 2, 2009: Rory McKenzie, 25, Bakersfield, California
              1. July 30, 2009: Jonathan Michael Nelson, 27, Riverside County, California
              1. August 9, 2009: Terrace Clifton Smith, 52, Moreno Valley, California
              1. August 12, 2009: Ernest Owen Ridlehuber III, 53, Greenwood, South Carolina
              1. August 14, 2009: Hakim Jackson, 31, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
              1. August 18, 2009: Ronald Eugene Cobbs, 38, Greensboro, North Carolina
              1. August 20, 2009: Francisco P. Sesate, 36, Mesa, Arizona
              1. August 22, 2009: T.J. Nance, 37, Arizona City, Arizona
              1. August 26, 2009: Miguel Molina, 27, Los Angeles, California
              1. August 27, 2009: Manuel Dante Dent, 27, Modesto, California
              1. September 7, 2009: Shane Ledbetter, 38, Aurora, Colorado
              1. September 16, 2009: Alton Warren Ham, 45, Modesto, California
              1. September 19, 2009: Yuceff W. Young II, Brooklyn, Ohio
              1. September 21, 2009: Richard Battistata, 44, Laredo, Texas
              1. September 28, 2009: Derrick Humbert, 38, Bradenton, Florida
              1. October 2, 2009: Rickey R. Massey, 38, Panama City, Florida
              1. October 12, 2009: Christopher John Belknap, 36, Ukiah, California
              1. October 17, 2009: Frank Cleo Sutphin, 19, San Bernardino, California
              1. October 27, 2009: Jeffrey C. Woodward, 33, Gallatin, Tennessee
              1. November 13, 2009: Herman George Knabe, 58, Corpus Christi, Texas
              1. November 14, 2009: Darryl Bain, 43, Long Island, New York
              1. November 16, 2009: Matthew Bolick, 30, East Grand Rapids, Michigan
              1. November 19, 2009: Jesus Gillard, 61, Bloomfield Township, Michigan
              1. November 21, 2009: Ronald Petruney, 49, Washington County, Pennsylvania


              "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

              by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:52:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Diary points out that company lies about lethal (11+ / 0-)

              nature of weapon.

              If you're trying to minimize the fact that the weapons CAN BE and ARE lethal --

              you're helping the company to lie.

              To mislead more officers, into thinking it doesn't matter if they do or don't use these dangerous, sometimes deadly devices.

              Tasing 10-year-olds. Tasing elderly women in wheel chairs.

              What the bleep?

              You seem to be working from a perception that the police have a RIGHT to use these things.

              Why would they?

              This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

              by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:47:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Tased every day?? (9+ / 0-)

          Would people get shot every day? Cops think they're non-lethal so the use it at times that they could never get away with using the gun

          Electronic media creates reality - Meatball Fulton

          by zeke7237 on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:52:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So like I've been saying (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            neroden, Eileen B, C Barr, bobsc

            this is a training issue.  If they were trained that these devices are non-lethal, then they should be retrained.

            I don't know if we can every know how many got "tased" that would have been shot or how many would have got in a fist fight with the officer and got "tased" instead.

            Police officers are issued these devices and told they are non-lethal, so of course they are using them in situations where they wouldn't normally use a gun.  When people know the truth they'll tend to act accordingly.

            Let's remember that we should care about people even after they're born. - A. Grayson

            by IL JimP on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:02:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  You CAN be shot w/ a gun and not die, so does (12+ / 0-)

          that mean guns are "non-lethal"?

          That's a bogus argument.

          Plenty of people are shot with bullets and live, the statistics would, I'd guess, be over 50%, more likely 80% survival. Just guessing.

          This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

          by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:44:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here's what I actually said: (0+ / 0-)

            I would think being shot with a bullet you have a much higher probability of dying.

            Yes the percentage of people who get "tased" and die is lower than the percentage of people who get shot and die.

            Let's remember that we should care about people even after they're born. - A. Grayson

            by IL JimP on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:34:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  if (13+ / 0-)

      they are resisting to the point where they would normally have gotten a bullet, then tase away. otherwise, other means should be sufficient. the fact that tasers were sold as a "non-lethal" alternative to guns has cause them to be used in a wide variety of inappropriate settings where a cop would never have thought about using a gun.

    •  What WAS the alternative before tasers? (35+ / 0-)

      Before 1993.

      A) You can shoot someone with a gun w/out killing them - which doesn't mean that guns are not capable of killing people. So:

      B) The fact that you can shoot someone with a Taser w/out killing them does NOT mean that Tasers aren't capable of killing people.

      C) Would Officer Fioriono  have Tasered a fellow officer 11-12 times, as she thought she had? Or would she have tasered them 8 times in 2 minutes, as she actually did?

      D) What is one of the common forms of capital punishment in this country?
      (Hint, it involves electricity.)

      E) Everyone knows electricity can kill you. No secret.

      F) The thought that attaching 2 electrodes over someone's heart, and pulsing 50,000 volts of electricity through them, TWICE, would not be very very likely to kill the person -- is ridiculous. Ignorant of the basics of how hearts work. (Hint, how do pacemakers work? They change the heart's rhythms with what again?)

      I could go on, but I won't. For the grand finale, idiots in uniforms, or should I say officers in uniform are using tasers where they would NOT use a gun.

      Example. Fellow in parking lot of his work place. Went out for lunch or break, sat in car. Went into diabetic coma. 911 called by other employees -- to get him HELP. Officers arrive. Man isn't capable of getting out of car, or too disoriented to understand what they want. Even low blood sugar will render people basically unable to move their bodies.

      At this point, the gendarmes proceed to taser the man, in full view of employees who only want him to live. Do they wait for paramedics to arrive? Do they keep talking reasonably to him? Are they reassuring to him that help is on the way?

      No, they do something counter to any humane or sane impulse, they shoot him with 50,000 volts of electricty. Repeatedly.

      Now you make the case for me, that without the tasers, in front of a group of witnesses, this man's fellow employees who cared about him, with an ambulance on the way to help him, they would have begun firing bullets into him.

      To convince him to get out of his car.

      I'm eager to hear your version of why you think the police would've begun firing live rounds into this man in a diabetic coma.

      This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

      by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:37:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well there's obviously nothing (26+ / 0-)

    "cruel or unusual" about using a device that electrocutes someone to the point where they're sometimes killed, right?  Particularly someone who's presumed innocent until proved guilty.

    I somehow doubt the Founding Fathers would have approved of TASER International, Inc. or their product, or the way it's used.

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 07:33:28 PM PST

  •  thanks for writing this... (15+ / 0-)

    Taser International is a really awful company and their actions have led to the deaths of 450+ people.  It's wrong, and the company really needs to be wiped out. We need much more regulation of "non-lethal" weapons.  Does anyone have any ideas about how best to proceed?

  •  George Carlin would have a field day (29+ / 0-)

    with their Orwellian vocabulary two-step. This is just sick:

    Also, do not use the word "tased," as this not only negatively impacts
    the trademark, TASER, but it also helps to perpetuate the use of
    this improper word, and it sounds unprofessional in reports and in

    Go ahead and kill people but don't sound "unprofessional" in your report.

    stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

    by Mother Mags on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:04:55 PM PST

  •  In the days (20+ / 0-)

    when Latin America was largely run by military dictatorships and other oligarchic police states, the authorities were notorious for their use of "electric cattle prods" on citizens.  I don't really see what the difference between the Latin American fascist's electric cattle prod and the "Homeland Security"-era US cop's Taser is, other than the American model has a spiffy brand name and a high-priced marketing campaign behind it.

    "99% of the battles and skirmishes that we fought in Afghanistan were won by our side." ~ Marshall Akhromeyev

    by ActivistGuy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:23:34 PM PST

  •  If TASERs are so safe and non-lethal (5+ / 0-)

    (as opposed to somewhat less frequently lethal than a gun) then why not support the newest thing, TaserSports(tm)?  Think of it, instead of tackling, how about TASER football?  Surely if a TASER is safe, TASER International would have no problem sponsering such a sport, as long as proper eye protection is worn.  Of course for safety reasons, only TASER brand zapguns would be allowed, no knockoffs.

  •  Policeman tases 10 year old girl yesterday! (23+ / 0-)

    LITTLE ROCK, Ark. — FBI agents are investigating why a police officer in a small Arkansas town used a stun gun on a 10-year-old girl who refused to take a shower, city officials said Friday.

    Un freaking believable!!; an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:31:02 PM PST

  •  ban tasers? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mole333, Eileen B, Derfel, notrouble

    Why because a handful abuse them?

    You want to say there is a problem? Okay but your 'response' is knee jerk and short sighted.

    Fact is tasers offer a less then lethal response that has saved lives.

    Fact also is that this isn't the first time a tool has been abused.

    •  Re: (13+ / 0-)

      ban tasers? (0+ / 0-)

      Why because a handful abuse them?

      Yes...for the same reason that many went to far with the stretching rack in the Spanish Inquisition.
      " were only supposed to get a confession/compliance, not pull his arms out of his sockets/electrocute him."

      "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

      by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:50:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Reading this diary, I'm more shocked (4+ / 0-)

      by the stupidity of those using TASERS inappropriately, than I am by the lethal effects of the device itself.

      How do we get better police?

    •  I just named 457 people (21+ / 0-)

      whose lives were not saved.  

      Can you name 457 lives that were saved?

      A Taser is not a tool. It is a weapon.

      You build things with tools. You kill things with weapons.

      "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

      by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:54:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How many of those were people with other issues (0+ / 0-)

        If someone has a heart defect or other health problem, or are strung out on meth, they can easily die in a struggle with police just as easily as they can from a tazer (or possibly more likely).

        Are there apparently sadists among the police (and prison guards, I might add)? Yes, there are. Does that mean all police are sadists and can't be trusted with a tazer?

      •  what nonsense (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Do you really want to make this tit for tat?

        Because while I am willing to concede that in >5% of the cases tasers are fatal that's still NINETY FIVE PERCENT of the rest of the time where there are not.

        And a handful of abuse cases proves nothing.

        Or do I need to educate you about batons? Flashlights? Mace?

        A tool is a tool, it can be used responsibly or not but stop giving it properties it doesn't process.

        Totally unreasonable knee jerk response.

        •  You are assuming (12+ / 0-)

          that 95% were justified simply because they were not fatal.
          False assumption not supported by the numbers.

          "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

          by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:15:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  don't move the goal posts here (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            you made a side point about deaths, I responded to that.

            You want to get into justifiable we can but that's a separate issue really.

            Because there will be times when tasers are justifiable and someone dies and vice versa.

            And what numbers? Are you living in some fantasy where only those that shouldn't have been tasered die?

            I am sorry but for someone trying to dress your bias up in facts and reason there's very little here.

            Just blind unreasoning bais where in you have your 'conclusion' and are just trying to make it fight like a square peg in a round hole.

            Never mind everything that counters your assumptions and rash judgement.

            •  sorry (8+ / 0-)

              I took this..

              And a handful of abuse cases proves nothing.

              to mean we were now talking about abuse.

              I still disagree with you however about the term "tool"

              "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

              by Zwoof on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:37:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You seem to be the one moving the posts. (7+ / 0-)

              The goal posts are zero deaths of police officers or offenders.  Seems to me you are allowing for far too much collateral damage.

              You are willing to accept that innocents die for no good reason.  I am not.

              Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

              by Demena on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:39:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  wow (0+ / 0-)

                I'd love to see that really I would.

                And I am not willing to accept anything of the sort, though I thank you for your little smear there.

                Maybe you should let me speak for myself sparky?

                This is what I accept, this isn't Star Trek we don't have phasers. There is no 'set phasers to stun' and there is no magic weapon to disable without the potential for abuse.

                And your 'well since it's not perfect we can't use it' attitude ignores and trivalizes all the times a taser has saved a life or spared an officer from having to shoot a suspect.

                Contrary to your bias most officers never fire their guns in anger and never want to. They are just doing a job and trying to go home in one piece at the end of the night.

                But please keep pretending your self righteous anger makes your special or some defender or something.

                I could use some more amusement.

                •  ok (7+ / 0-)

                  And I am not willing to accept anything of the sort, though I thank you for your little smear there.

                  Maybe you should let me speak for myself sparky?

                  I did, you have, and you clearly don't care.  What is with the "sparky"?  An attempt to devalue me?  Just shows your argument has nothing going for it.

                  And your 'well since it's not perfect we can't use it' attitude ignores and trivalizes all the times a taser has saved a life or spared an officer from having to shoot a suspect.

                  It does nothing of the sort.  Tasers do not save officer lives because they should be using them when they are prepared to use a firearm, ie.  willing to kill.  Oh, if you want to give me a number of "saved lives" we can compare it with the know figures on deaths, but not regretfully, with those on abuse.

                  But please keep pretending your self righteous anger makes your special or some defender or something.

                  I could use some more amusement.

                  Please be aware that not everyone on the Internet is you.  I am neither angry nor self-righteous. That you think I am suggests you are looking into the mirror of your own mind.   So feel free to be amused by yourself.  In Australia we call it "wanking".

                  Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                  by Demena on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:40:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Except that for some people, (10+ / 0-)

      who have conditions they themselves may not even know about, it will pretty much be lethal, period.

      At least one of my family members has already given the "push for prosecution of attempted murder if I am ever tased, murder if I die" directive to next-of-kin.

      Hoping and praying that the empty chairs and empty tables in Iran when all is said and done are as few as possible.

      by Cassandra Waites on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:24:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  there is no such thing as completely safe (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        and I reject your argument that because it's no perfect we shouldn't use it.

        This isn't Star Trek, there is no 'set phasers to stun' and disable without permanent harm.

        •  Guns are not completely safe either. (11+ / 0-)

          It is you who is missing the point.  A taser should only be used if the officer would otherwise use a more lethal instrument (gun).  If that were the case no one would have a problem with them.

          Using them for crowd control, coercion, punishment, vengeance, amusement or whatever is not acceptable as you risk the life of the person you use them on.

          You are quite right, this is not star trek and tasers cannot be set to "stun only".  They are a lethal weapon and should be used only where an officer would otherwise use a gun.

          Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

          by Demena on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:44:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, "Sparky," you kind of can set to stun. (26+ / 0-)

          Or at least you could if they decide it's profitable.  Here, let's look at some other things that dumb old hillbillies like me know something about.

          1. If you are unfortunate enough to touch an electric fence, that thing will kick your ass.  A good electric fence will keep large herds of cattle in a really small space.  It's the last line of defense when trying to keep two bulls from fighting through the fence and wreaking havoc. An electric fence runs anywhere between 1,000 and 10,000 volts. I've used the solar-powered fences listed that run about 6,500 volts and they are quite painful.
          1. Cattle prods generally run about 10,000 volts but Hot Shots, which is the popular brand, can push 20,000 volts. A shock from a lesser model in the 10,000 volt range is enough to knock a full grown bull to the ground when applied in locations such as the neck, chest or groin. A Hot Shot hitting them anywhere will drop them and make them seize with their eyes rolled back in their head for a while.  Sometimes they can't get up for a long time afterward. Occasionally they don't get up at all. Note the warnings listed for humans here.

          I've known farmers who would show up to help on our farm during sorting and shipping time with a cattle prod in hand and I told them that unless they intended me to use that thing on them they could either stuff that thing back in their truck or leave. They are cruel, and used by idiots to no good end.

          Let's compare and contrast these two products with the above mentioned Tasers with 50,000 volts.  Notice the box that tells you how cattle prods only shock a specific area (liars!) while tasers have a more profound effect. Interesting. That somehow sounds more dangerous.  Oh, and don't forget to take notice of those stun gun ads on the right side of the page, which any idiot with cash in his pocket can get. Some of these have different power settings depending on just how stunned you'd like some hapless fellow to be. Looks like any loser can get their hands on nearly a million volts of "protection" for about $75. What a comfort.

          I've had more than my fair share of electric fence incidents and was once shocked with a cattle prod by a guy who thought it would be hilarious fun. It turned out to not be fun for either of us in the end.

          I'm getting older now, and I have an unnervingly irregular heartbeat. If it's all the same to you, I'd just as soon have the local Barney shoot me with a gun than a taser.  I doubt it would be any more deadly to me and at least he'd have to think about it.

          "The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places." Ernest Hemingway

          by Got a Grip on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 11:03:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm sending this to top comments (10+ / 0-)

            on general principles.

            "You've got to watch your mind all the time or you'll awaken and find a strange picture on your press." - Lord Buckley

            by mieprowan on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 11:22:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  frankly I should be in bed (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            as I have to work soon but as this is the type of comment I prefer to respond to I just can't can't help but respond.

            The equation is not that simple,  there's factors like skin toughness, average resistance of the skin, high or low amps and so on.

            There's also design to consider.

            A taser by design isn't about the massive shock of a prod it's about overloading the nervous system. This is in turn causes the victim's muscles to lock tight (I can't precisely explain this something to do with how the body defaults in regards to electrical stimulation) vs how the prod is designed (basically it's a miniature Vandi Graph Generator) where in the electrical charge is concentrated on the skin and the goal is pain. And while I know how painful electrical stimulation is (it was how I recovered from one of my several surgeries) I've been told it's nothing compared to a prod (which believe it or not is more dangerous to a human then a taser)

            Now I am not saying it's not possible to lower to voltage, simple fact is I can't be sure and it's certainly an intriguing idea but I suspect that the voltage chosen was the lowest one that could achieve the results desired.

            But I would prefer if we didn't just concentrate on one number which is not quite as high as it would appear. Not in the full context of electricity.

            Finally, let's not conflate matters please. You want to talk about ease of use or acquirement? Sure I am all for that.

            You want to talk about how little it's regulated? Sure I am all for that.

            But can we please separate matters and just not run them all together?

            •  If only life were so simple as to be able to (7+ / 0-)

              separate things as though one doesn't affect the other or that they're not bound together in some way.

              I'm not really interested in regulating these things beyond an outright ban.  I appreciate your explanation about the difference between a cattle prod and a taser, even as I have serious doubts without links to support your assumptions and statements.

              But let's leave that for a minute and discuss another aspect of this that you seem to have glossed over in your defense of taser use. Note that in many of these stories of taser use and abuse, whether or not the victim actually died, many of the people were already restrained in some way before the taser was shot at them. Many others were not a threat at all, such as the old lady that got tased for cursing at the traffic cop or "Don't Tase Me Bro!" guy. The only danger the cop was in was of a good tongue lashing. A cop would end up in jail for firing a gun at someone for doing nothing more than cursing or engaging in passive resistance. So should he/she end up in jail for electrocuting someone for same.

              These incidents don't have anything to do with keeping either the police or the public safe. And they don't have anything to do with inadequate training. Common sense would tell a decent cop that kicking or hitting someone who is handcuffed and prone on the ground or old and doing nothing more than giving you a good cussing is very poor conduct. Why would shooting electricity into these people seem like a logical leap or a better solution than working the actual problem, if indeed an actual problem exists at all?

              "The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places." Ernest Hemingway

              by Got a Grip on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:22:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  He also knows little (7+ / 0-)

                about how the nervous system works when exposed to 50,000 volts of electricity. There is no way to isolate that much electricity to just the skin or a few muscles as with the low voltage "tens" treatment for muscle stimulation. There's a reason we yell clear and make sure everyone is not touching the patient before we defibrillate in a cardiac arrest. You can get quite a "charge" from it that can be very dangerous, even put you into cardiac arrest.
                 In NYC, anyone who has been tazed goes to an ER for an ECG and blood work to make sure there is no cardiac damage. Many do get admitted because of ECG changes.

                "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes" Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

                by TheMomCat on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 01:55:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know alot more then you on this subject (0+ / 0-)

                  and probably in general.

                  1. A conductive gel is used in deflibration in general
                  1. Placement of the paddles is critical
                  1. It's possible of course you could get shocked but it would be rare. Then again why risk if you don't have to?

                  All this means that you are not even close to an apples to apples comparison.

                  But please keep talking like a condescending ass, it's amusing to see your hypocrisy in action.

                  But then again you're not interested in actually talking you just want to rant like a child.

                  •  Let me update you (6+ / 0-)

                    on that since you obviously aren't aware that most hospitals and ambulances haven't used conductive gel or Cardiac monitors with paddles in about 10 years. There are disposable pads with cords connecting from the monitor  that adhere to the patient's chest and come in two different sizes, adult and pediatric. The pads provide better and consistent contact than paddles and do not have to be constantly reapplied. They also are used if the patient requires external cardiac pacing which can be maintained until an internal pacemaker is placed.
                     The reason that getting shocked along with the patient is rare is due to caution and training. Accidental shocks happen occasionally due to carelessness and when it does the person also becomes a patient.

                     Drache, may I ask where you got your medical training? Have you ever worked a cardiac arrest? You really need to stop watching TV doctor shows,they are incredibly inaccurate and your knowledge of neuro- and cadiophysiology is severely lacking. If you have any questions about ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support). please feel free to ask, since I've been practicing Emergency Medicine for over 30 years at a Level 1 Trauma Center and around the world with an international NGO. That you are way out of your area of expertise is very evident.  

                    "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes" Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

                    by TheMomCat on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 11:06:36 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well that's good to hear (0+ / 0-)

                      though even 3 years ago my uncles who are firefighter-paramedics did use gel. That gel was always dangerous to emergency personal and from what I was told a pain in the ass.

                      I can't help but notice though, you used the word most which means unless I have forgotten how the word is used; means that I am not completely wrong.

                      As to getting shocked, the electricity flows though a set path, one pad to the other.

                      That's how you can shock a patient back to life without killing them as you fry their tissue.

                      I certainly wouldn't recommend it but you could grab a leg and be safe. Of course electricity is unpredictable (just read about lightening strikes and all the things it does) so it's a bit like grabbing a tiger by the tail.

                      My medical training? First Responder certified, first aid certified, cpr certified.

                      My information though came from talking to said uncles above though about 3 years ago cause I needed first hand knowledge about deflib machines for a physics project.

                      •  Oh. My. God. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TheMomCat, Zwoof

                        Congratulations! Those qualifications will get you a job in the middle of nowhere at a volunteer fire department, as long as you sign something that says you promise not to touch any equipment.

                        How old are you, anyway? High school age? College? What a veritable font of wisdom you are, what with your vast knowledge of electricity and physics and medicine and police work.

                        I think you should go out into the real world and try being a grown-up for a while before you show up here and pontificate.

                        "The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places." Ernest Hemingway

                        by Got a Grip on Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 03:04:41 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  This one's (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TheMomCat, joanneleon, Got a Grip

                        "Wide acceptance of an idea is not proof of its validity." Dan Brown

                        by Bulldawg on Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 03:06:30 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  So plainly (5+ / 0-)

                        your training is less than that of an EMT as per DOT guidelines. In case you didn't know, it is the Department of Transportation that sets up the Emergency Medical Technician and Paramedic guidelines for the US. You think you're an expert after a discussion 3 years ago with your firefighter/paramedic uncles? Even they would laugh you out of the fire station with this nonsense your spewing here. There are many rural paramedic unites that still use paddles and gel but they are way behind technology and the new requirements to be certified as a Paramedic Emergency Ambulance Service. They wouldn't be certified as a Paramedic unit in NYS without a cardiac monitor that has pads, 12 lead EKG capability and end tidal capnography monitoring as well as pulse oximetry.
                        My medical training is from  Albert Einstein College of Medicine and 30+ years practicing Emergency Medicine.
                        You need to stop with your personal invective and threats. Learn to take correction and criticism like an adult member of this community. You might actually learn something.

                        "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes" Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

                        by TheMomCat on Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 05:29:11 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  actually this is simple (0+ / 0-)

                or at least in this case it is. You can mostly untangle this into it's component parts and address them separately.

                As to the cattle prod vs taser, I didn't provide links precisely because I want you to look it up. I  frankly doubt you would read them or take them seriously anyways so look into yourself. That's the only real way we learn, right?

                I also think we're always going to be in fundamental disagreement because I don't support a ban on tasers, period. I support regulation and training but I think it short sighted and knee jerk reaction to remove something merely because it can be misused.

                Finally as I have repeatedly said let's have a discussion on enforcement and so on. I support officers having mandatory requalification yearly just like they have to qualify yearly with their service weapon.

                I think when ever an officer abuses someone it's a tragic breach of trust, but I don't hold any distinction between whether that's abuse with a baton, taser, flashlight, service weapon or whatever else.

                Abuse of power is abuse of power there's nothing really special or groundbreaking or even especially horrible about tasers.

                Frankly I feel like we're talking at each other and not too because I have never contested that abuse happens. Nor have I ever contested that it should be stopped.

                What I do contest is the shortsighted reaction of the diary and I contest the personal attacks on me, the smears and lies.

                •  Wow. Simple is right. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  vcmvo2, Zwoof

                  As to the cattle prod vs taser, I didn't provide links precisely because I want you to look it up. I  frankly doubt you would read them or take them seriously anyways so look into yourself. That's the only real way we learn, right?

                  This is:

                  1. insulting, and
                  1. pure horseshit

                  I DID look up the links. And I provided them to you. You have not reciprocated with anything, ANYTHING that supports any of your claims. Not about how these devices work, how training would improve their use, what you think makes them a good "tool," nor do you have anything that supports your ideas of how electricity works, both on humans with or without the use of these devices. No links, no supporting data, nothing. To insinuate that I should part with my time to seek out data that would support your erroneous claims is pretty ballsy for someone raising such a ruckus about being picked on. I took the time to provide you with links. You took the time to tell me how to do your work for you. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I can read and cypher without taking off my shoes and everything.

                  Again, tasers are unnecessary. There is no legitimate supporting data that shows that tasers have improved the safety of police or the public. Given that, I don't know why you'd think there's a need for such a device. They serve no good purpose.  They do not need regulation or better training, They need to be shelved permanently. We don't let Barney carry a machine gun. He doesn't need a taser, either.

                  You're pretty thin-skinned for someone who likes to hurl insults at people. That doesn't bode well for you.

                  "The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places." Ernest Hemingway

                  by Got a Grip on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 04:41:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  your links frankly were unneeded (0+ / 0-)

                    they were backing up statements of fact that didn't need them.

                    And I stand by my intent, you want to learn? Then I encourage you to learn on your own.

                    That's really the best way and it's neutral to what I have to say. As I am confident in my the process that lead me to my conclusion I think you'll come to the same place.

                    But it's at best shady for me to do that.

                    It's not about supporting myself or not, it's about the search for knowledge.

                    Sorry you disagree with that.

                    As to me being thin skinned, you're conflating me caring with me putting up with insults.

                    I don't know you and your opinion of me matters little to me. But I will treat people how they treat me, nothing more nothing less. It's not about being thin skinned it's about treating people as they treat others and not being some walking mat for others.

                    Not sure what is so hard to understand about that, not like we're talking physics......

                    •  I'm sure in your world those links were unneeded. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      You seem to just run with the fantasy in your head. Surely you've been around this community long enough to know that it's considered normal to provide links to your claims to support them, a basis in reality if you will.

                      I'm just tickled that you have a process in which you're confident.  Nothing here has led me to feel the same sense of confidence in your opinions. To the contrary, your lack of actual engagement strips me of what little confidence I had that you are capable of carrying on an intelligent conversation.

                      Don't assume because I'm a hillbilly I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Don't insult my intelligence by pretending you have superior knowledge without providing anything resembling proof. Don't pull that condescending bullshit on me, fool.

                      Now leave this thread and take your bullshit with you.  You are now officially a zombie.  Beat it.

                      "The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places." Ernest Hemingway

                      by Got a Grip on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 05:57:59 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I find it hilarious (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        how pompous you've gotten.

                        I'm a zombie? You are too if that's how you want to be.

                        After all you're still replying.

                        For someone of your supposed age you really don't act it.

                        And I insulted nothing, I told you to go research it; come to your own conclusions. That's how you should learn.

                        Either way I am done with this nonsense from you and your cohorts, enjoy your echo chamber and maybe next time you'll have a thicker skin.

                      •  A zombie is a returned banned user, (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        RunawayRose, Got a Grip

                        ..without the benefit of permission from kos or his delegates. It's not an all-purpose insult, it has a pecific meaning. As far as I know, drache is not a zombie. Asshat and trollfriend, but not a zombie.

                        Veni, vidi, farinuxi.

                        by Ahianne on Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 01:15:02 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Specific, not pecific. (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          RunawayRose, Got a Grip, Rustbelt Dem

                          My typing skills do not improve with late hours.

                          Veni, vidi, farinuxi.

                          by Ahianne on Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 01:17:03 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks, Ahianne. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          RunawayRose, Ahianne

                          Finally someone shows up in this dead thread with something informative and helpful.

                          When I showed up here in '06 there were diaries that would have conversations for days, sometimes weeks. They weren't intelligent conversations, of course, they were stuff like drache has come back to post in this dead thread or worse, with angry responses like mine or worse. Some of those people were "famous" (or infamous) people here at the time, they weren't banned users or trolls or newbie cranks or anything like that. They would stalk the dead threads, finding people they didn't like and goading them into angry responses, at which time they'd send out the call and a pack would descend on the hapless victim to HR them into oblivion. Or they'd just keep coming back, adding insult upon insult to injury in an attempt to run someone off. Having been here a while now, I look back on that period as one of the most offensive times here at DK that I've experienced.

                          Everyone I knew called them zombies, so that's what I assumed a zombie was, i.e., someone who comes into a dead diary and posts comments with the intent of having the last word or causing a ruckus. So that's where I was coming from.

                          Is there a term I've missed that describes what I had previously considered to be zombies? Or do I just call it dickishness, reset my mental on-line dictionary and move on?

                          And hey, I've learned something in this conversation.  I had totally given up hope on that. Thanks, Ahianne.  Really.  Much appreciated. :)

                          "The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places." Ernest Hemingway

                          by Got a Grip on Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 08:44:28 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

            •  Vandi Graph? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheMomCat, Got a Grip

              Boy, that bad beer really did rot your young gut.

        •  that comment is just nuts (5+ / 0-)

          Makes no sense whatsoever.

          What you are apparently saying is:

          "There is no such thing as a completely safe way to subdue people, so we should use dangerous ones at will."

          "This isn't Star Trek, we can't have phasers set to stun, so it's okay if the cops accidentally kill people they are trying to subdue."

          This is crazy paranoid dangerous talk. And then you go and carry on about how you are going to get the cops on the other commenters here for ratings abuse?

          At least they aren't arguing that the gendarmes should have carte blanch to use dangerous weapons at will on anyone they want, in order to subdue them. Oh, and if they die; sorry, we didn't have any more perfect way to subdue people.

          Shameful. Totally shameful.

          "You've got to watch your mind all the time or you'll awaken and find a strange picture on your press." - Lord Buckley

          by mieprowan on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 11:39:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Even phasers set on stun weren't safe. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Derfel, drache

          Just remembering a few episodes of Star Trek (TOS, TNG) and Star Trek VI off the top of my head.

          An assassin killed people by using a phaser set on stun, at point blank range to the back of the victim's head (setting it to kill and firing it would set off the ship's alarms and set security personnel running).

          In a TNG episode or two (I think the Pakled episode), a phaser set on stun was used as a torture device on Laforge.

          I agree with you. I want to do it. Now make me do it! - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

          by meldroc on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 05:42:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I support the ban of tasers (15+ / 0-)

    after researching taser-related deaths with another reform advocate (I was less involved with this than she was). Many law enforcement agencies feel they are too dangerous to use, and thus do not use them. There are countless medical conditions that are impossible to evaluate that tasers, specifically, can cause death from... all under the header of excited delirium, or other causes of death, such as heart arrhythmia, epilepsy, etc.

    "If you do not make it empty, how will you fill it up again?" -- Neem Karoli Baba

    by mahakali overdrive on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:41:10 PM PST

  •  That would be a (6+ / 0-)

    REC by me.

    Thank you

    The crooks are leaving have left office, unprosecuted and scot-free.

    by BentLiberal on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:46:30 PM PST

  •  There was the Polish guy at the Vancouver (17+ / 0-)

    airport in 2007 who did not speak a word of English, his Mom was to pick him up, but there was a mix up. He spent hours and hours getting confused and frustrated. The RCMP where called in to take on this guy who had a stapler in his hand, in no time at all they tased him five times, sat on him and killed him. The first investigation found the cops acted properly, it's being looked at again.

    At least in Feb. 2009 it was announced that for RCMP in Canada will now restrict their use to cases involving threats to officers or public safety.

    RCMP Commissioner William Elliott says the new rules clearly set out that Mounties can't zap suspects for simple resistance or refusing to co-operate.

    Let's hope they stick to a high threshold of what a threat is.

    We have all seen the brave cops telling the "suspect" to get down on the ground or do something or other and because they want to talk about it it's seen as non-conform and the guy gets tased. Hey police officers, there are three of you (or in the above case 5) and I expect if you want to handcuff a person and put him in the cruiser you are going to have to do it the old fashioned way and not the Indiana Jones way. You are just too tired to wrestle with the guy, you are just going to shoot him instead? You are in the wrong career.

    •  Yep...time for those cops to give Ultimate (6+ / 0-)

      Cage Fighting (or some such other televised gladiator bullshit) a try. Level the playing field for them, like a real man, right?

      "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

      by rogerdaddy on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:52:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well put n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      debedb, Chacounne

      This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

      by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:11:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Canadians figured out what really happens (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle, Zwoof, Got a Grip

      in most of these cases -- and it turns the words of the Taser advocates on their head. From the SL Trib article:

      "The fundamentals of an excited delirium death are not that difficult to understand," Kroll wrote. "Our bodies have limits to exertion... If these limits are sufficiently exceeded, we will die."

      What this stooge of a "professor" is conveniently neglecting to say is that the Taser incapacitates not only by electric shock, but by stimulating muscles to the point they are worn out. In other words, the Taser is inherently designed to approach these limits to exertion. If deployed excessively, as Amnesty indicates has happened in the majority of deaths, the bloodstream overloads with lactic acid from this exertion, which can cause multiple organ failure.

      Normally, this only involves skeletal muscles. In the handful of cases where Taser has been successfully sued, it appears that the heart was more affected due to the circumstances around how the victim was shot. But what Taser as a company is really trying to avoid is the exact connection being made that the Canadian inquiry found, which is that overuse of the Taser directly causes lactic acidosis, which can kill independent of whether any organs were affected directly by the electric shock. That connection opens the floodgates to the admission they do not want to make -- that the devices are inherently prone to abuse, and when abused, they can kill just about anyone.

      Is Joe Lieberman (Douche-CT) a turncoat Republican? "You never know with Joe."

      by cville townie on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 05:45:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Policeman tasers 10-yr-old girl (13+ / 0-)

    She refuses to take a shower when her mother asks her to. Is refusing to go to bed.

    (Who ever heard of such a thing, except every parent in the known universe.)

    Mother calls cop.

    Cop threatens child.

    Child still non-compliant. Mom tells cop to taser child if need be. (So he listens?)

    Child still kicking and thrashing, cop decides to take her into custody -- for refusing to shower, what statute is that?

    Child lands kick to cop's groin -- he tasers her.

    Coincidence much?

    Maybe he should wear protection?

    This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

    by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 08:57:01 PM PST

    •  OK she was unruly (0+ / 0-)

      And could have been injured otherwise being arrested. It sounds like she might be ODD and maybe Mom's at the end of her rope with her (the HuffPo mentioned emotional problems).

      The Officer, in that case, has been suspended because without the camera, no one can tell if the officer acted properly or not.

      •  The MOTHER is the one who's nuts. Child=victim (5+ / 0-)

        of having a crazy, incompetent mother.

        Think about it. Where would we be if the cops were called every time a 10-year-old threw a tantrum? Refused to do what the parents said?

        For the love of pete, let her go to school dirty. For as long as she wants. Let her sleep in her clothes if she wants to. Wear the same outfit to school for a week if she wants. When she starts stinking, the other children are going to let her know about it.

        And yes, that's the recommended course of action from a friend of mine whose also-crazy mom deserted her father to raise their 8 children. My friend was the oldest, so became the instant mom to 7 children, at age about 13-14.

        She couldn't arm-wrestle them all to bed nightly, she had to be smarter than that.

        Child odd? She will be if she keeps living with a mom who can't figure something this simple out.

        This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

        by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:51:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  With a mother like that (6+ / 0-)

        no wonder the child has emotional problems.

        Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

        by Demena on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:01:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Father says he'll sue for full custody (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, Uberbah, Jerry Melton

          Hope he wins.

          Wasn't first time mother called cops on the child.

          I had a foster child in my home whose mother took him to the hospital to be seen by mental health professionals when he was TWO.

          Because he was holding his breath.

          The several box-fulls of paper records on this child recorded that as his first trip into the "mental health" world.

          Good god, what parent does anything but, realistically, laugh quietly internally, if a 2-year-old is holding their breath? Worst case scenario, they'll hold breath till they pass out, then start breathing again.

          That mom taught her 2-year-old something important: "If you hold your breath, you can control the whole household, and part of the staff of a hospital!"

          What 2-year-old wouldn't take that kind of power and run with it?

          This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

          by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:09:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Homeless man catches on fire after tasing, dies (12+ / 0-)

    Yep. You really must see his picture, to see how much the picture of sanity he was.

    Tasered Homeless Man Catches on Fire
    LANCASTER, Ohio, Aug. 19, 2009

    (AP)  Police in Ohio say officers using a new Taser stun gun briefly set a homeless man on fire while trying to subdue him.

    A police report in Lancaster (LANG'-kuh-stur), about 30 miles southeast of Columbus, says one officer had seen the man inhaling a chemical from an aerosol can Monday night. That officer and another then struggled with the suspect, and the Taser was used. A flame appeared on the man's chest, and officers patted it down.

    Video at that link:

    Deadly Police Tasers
    A Missouri family has settled a wrongful death suit following a fatal Taser gun shooting by police. The incident is raising questions about police training on the use of Tasers. Jeff Glor reports.

    This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

    by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:02:00 PM PST

    •  Youtube of man on fire tased to death because (8+ / 0-)

      the police were scared of his charred body.

      I won't link to it. It's long, and deeply, deeply sick.

      "If you do not make it empty, how will you fill it up again?" -- Neem Karoli Baba

      by mahakali overdrive on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:19:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Been there, seen that. Young man, early 20s (9+ / 0-)

        injured in car accident. That the one?

        Thrown from car, most of skin ripped off his body. Police show up when 911 called, before the ambulance. Tell him to lie down on the ground, which is gravel, WITH NO SKIN, and when he refuses, they tase him.

        Then later shoot him, after he adrenelates, bolts up, and starts running. Cornered animal is all he is at that point. Shoot him dead, I might add.

        Oh wait, he wasn't on fire. Must be a different case.

        What on earth are we letting the police do in our names?

        And the media has, for years, not really reported the truth of this.

        This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

        by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:54:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, that one... (7+ / 0-)

          I don't think he was on fire when they tased him. He'd just gotten over being on fire before they tased him and then shut him.

          No criminal wrongdoing was found with these officers.

          I'm not sure I can think of any case where criminal wrongdoing was found with law enforcement, really. Unsure how the Oscar Grant case is doing. Interesting statistics.

          But back to that story.

          We are letting some very scary shit happen. That's what.

          They're routinely denying legal and prescribed medications to inmates in my local prisons (even for minor holds). Multiple in-custody deaths have resulted from withdrawals. There is no media coverage on this. But the California Commission on Civil Rights saw fit to recommend independent legal review, since our area is notorious for this shit.

          They ignored the State warning, despite huge community outcry involving groups ranging from the NAACP to NAMI to the ACLU to the Quakers to the local Rabbis.

          "If you do not make it empty, how will you fill it up again?" -- Neem Karoli Baba

          by mahakali overdrive on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:23:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  "Stun gun" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jerry Melton

      It sounds like the phaser set on stun from Star Trek.  So futuristic and sanitary.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:22:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Read Lockdown America (12+ / 0-)

    Great book on the breakdown of law enforcement and the prison-industrial complex in America, for those who are interested in a deeper examination of this issue. It starts with the very racist roots of our present police model, and moves forward to examine things like why the police have become increasingly paramilitarized.

    I don't know about you, but the last town I lived in brought in a tank one night to deal with a 15-year old kid who missed probation for a minor drug offense. It was a real to-do.  

    "If you do not make it empty, how will you fill it up again?" -- Neem Karoli Baba

    by mahakali overdrive on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:22:42 PM PST

    •  A tank. For a 15-year-old. (4+ / 0-)

      Good god.

      Global warming is here. And we're driving tanks for this.


      This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

      by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:04:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We had a fairly regular presence of tanks (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AllisonInSeattle, Uberbah, EmmaKY

        They were brought out for show on a fairly regular basis, along with the "ghetto birds" (police helicopters). Pretty fucked up use of limited California tax dollar funding, in my very humble opinion here. We didn't live in a war zone or anything. This was in a primarily Latino suburb North of the Golden Gate. In my almost two years there, I never actually saw any violence, FWIW.

        "If you do not make it empty, how will you fill it up again?" -- Neem Karoli Baba

        by mahakali overdrive on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 10:18:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  A tank? Really? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mahakali overdrive

      Do you happen to have a link to a story about that?

      •  I don't think it made the news (0+ / 0-)

        I Googled it and found a video, however... it's extremely dim and blurry...

        This sort of thing never makes the news here. I don't still live in that area, but at that time, this was like a few blocks from my house... only reason I heard about it was because it was next-door to my then-partners house (that he had owned and sold a few months prior and happened to notice driving to our home).

        We knew the kid and the situation personally. He was his ex-neighbor. Next day, he asked the mother what on earth it was all about and apparently it was a minor probation issue.

        These tanks were a not infrequent sight. I imagine they're still around. Also, helicopters with search lights every night in our yard :/ Looking for undocumented people.

        "If you do not make it empty, how will you fill it up again?" -- Neem Karoli Baba

        by mahakali overdrive on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:41:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Too many cops are assholes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Somebody asked once if cops should be used in public schools. I said, "yes". I was then asked, "Wouldn't that would put the students at risk from those same cops sent there to protect them?" Of course it would. And the people would be outraged, maybe enough to force the cops to behave in a civil fashion.

    Think about it. You give these guys weapons and authority, yet wouldn't trust them around children... at least not to the extent of allowing them to patrol school hallways like they patrol our streets. Why trust them around adults, many of whom are like big kids in many respects, when they aren't trusted around our children?

    I want cops that have my trust and respect. I want them to return home safe, both mentally and physically, after each shift. I want them vetted and trained to minimize anti-social behavior. I want cops I can trust around kids.

    I think the Taser's main function is to detect and illuminate seriously dysfunctional cops and police departments. Other than that, it's a total failure.

    Free University and Health Care for all, now. -8.88, -7.13

    by SoCalHobbit on Sat Nov 21, 2009 at 09:28:08 PM PST

  •  hmm (0+ / 0-)

    Well I don't think they should be totally banned but should certainly have strict regulations on them.  From what I've seen and read on tasers one shot takes nearly anyone down if not out cold and even after the electricity stops flowing into them it still messes up their motor functions so if they wanted they could jump on them and handcuff them well before they recover.  I don't think I've heard of any cases where the person died from a single use of a taser gun as for the medical issues that comes down to a judgment call that should be reserved for when they are being a real imminent danger to themselves or others. Because you can never know if someone has for instance brittle bones and if they get tackled while trying to run away they may end up with a broken rib in their lung or if they are a hemophiliac and will bleed to death from they get a bad cut while the police wrestle with them on the ground.  Lots of medical issues that could easily kill people and be completely unexpected by police that are trying to do their jobs by the book and with good judgment.

  •  thank you for noticing this story (4+ / 0-)

    it stunk from the beginning.  

    on a roadside in the middle of nowhere.  big threat, huh.  

    wife was watching.  

    "Gloom we always have with us . . . but joy requires tending." Barbara Holland

    by jlms qkw on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 01:24:59 AM PST

  •  Policing in the US (0+ / 0-)

    It's a sad commentary on the profesionalism of policing in the US that for the vast majority of us the people with whom we have some frequency of interaction who pose the most danger to our persons and well-being are on duty police officers.

    •  Actually..... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Zwoof, Got a Grip

      It's a sad commentary on the profesionalism of policing in the US that for the vast majority of us the people with whom we have some frequency of interaction who pose the most danger to our persons and well-being are on duty police officers.

      Your chances of being killed by a cop are really very unlikely.  I am using 2006 data (US Bureau of justice has very detailed data for 1973-2006)  So that is the year I picked.  According to the DOJ/FBI there where 14,380,370 arrests in the US.  Police killed 439 of those arrested. (there were a total of 710 arrest related deaths, illness, overdose, suicide etc.)

      That is a very small death rate IMHO.  Poking around DOJ crime statistics reports tell me you are about 1200 times as likely to be killed by a family member.

      Oh yeah, there where 151 police officer line of duty deaths in 2006.

      Just trying to be rational, I hope I am not way out of line.  

      •  Thanks for your research (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Got a Grip

        These statistics are rather broad.

        14,380,370 arrests in the US.  Police killed 439 of those arrested. (there were a total of 710 arrest related deaths, illness, overdose, suicide etc.)

        How many of the 14M arrests involved conflict and how many of the 710 arrest related deaths were from Excited Delirium?

        "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

        by Zwoof on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 05:57:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Zwoof, Got a Grip

          0 according to the DOJ report.  Keep in mind I used data that is five years old, maybe in a few years after data from FBI's UCR and wherever else DOJ gets thier info can be evaluated and added to it's report.

          I was really only commenting on a comment.  All public officials should be accountable for thier actions or lack thereof.  Knee jerk blanket cop bashing just bugs me, your diary does not.

  •  And how many of these officers are ex-military? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    figbash, Hirodog, meldroc

    People who are trained in "force protection," "unit cohesion" and to see everyone as a potential enemy in preparation for split-second, life-or-death decisions on a battlefield are not suited to public safety jobs. There's a lot if training that has to be undone.

    And it is no coincidence that police  brutality has been on the increase ever since the first Gulf War.

    Forgive me for not being impressed by the transformation of "Change we can believe in" to "It could be worse."

    by expatjourno on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 04:41:36 AM PST

    •  Indeed, how many. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      That's always the first thing that pops into my wee, widdle brain when I read about abuse meted out by some of the boys in blue.  The training the military gets these days scares the purple piss oughta me and I don't believe that those vets who go into police work are being re-trained for their new jobs in a non-war zone.  I think the opposite, actually.

      If I don't know I don't know, I think I know. If I don't know I know, I think I don't know. -- R.D. Laing

      by figbash on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 05:49:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Personally, I'm sick of... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ... people insinuating that the entire bulk of police forces in North America are some sort of sadistic group of bastards who love whippin' out their Taser and zappin' whoever, whenever.

    I would argue that the reported misuse of the Taser (involving death and otherwise) represents a very small percentage of its use, and in fact that the VAST majority of police officers in North America know when to use a Taser, and know when not to use it.

    Better training? Sure. But please stop making blanket statements about police officers being torturers, etc.

    (This is more directed at the comments than the diary in this case... but "meathooks"?)

    •  Agree (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, Got a Grip

      Blanket statements about all Peace Officers are not fair to those that do "Serve & Protect". My sister is a P.O. and over the years I have had many friends on the force.  Other statements about returning veterans that enter law enforcement are over the top as well.

      I do stand by the "meathook" description however.  I use this term to offset the attempt by Taser, Inc. to control the message by advising police on how to handle the press by using benign words like "deploy".  It is double speak and the sole purpose of this language is to reduce their liability.

      They are barbed and they stick in the skin usually requiring removal by  health care personnel. A probe is something like a thermometer in my book.  

      "If we can't be free at least we can be cheap." Zappa

      by Zwoof on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 06:23:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  just adding (0+ / 0-)

        Tasers used these days have both fixed probes and "meat hooks."  However, if they were shaped like a meat hook they wouldn't work very well. They are more like barbed needles at the end of the wires that get shot out.  The probes are on the hand held part of the taser that can be used in addition or instead of the projectile.

        You may find it interesting that many (most?) LE agencies that use them have a volunteer at initial training that gets tased.  Usually a favorite sergeant or Lieutenant.

    •  IF they would be found guilty of abuse more often (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Zwoof, Got a Grip, mieprowan

      the general public would have more trust in them. [In typing this, I'm presuming you're a decent person, totally sincere, even possibly police officer, or relatives or friends who are.]

      I know that seems paradoxical. But what I'm referring to is, that in cases where police were:
      clearly over the line,
      were clearly abusive,
      and/or murdered a suspect,
      and/or beat the crap out of him/her,
      and/or were clearly sadistic (video evidence) --

      it seems that other police immediately leap to their defense. As do government officials, the city government's attorneys, etc.

      The problem with that -- and there is one -- is that the general public reacts to all that defense by thinking, "Ah, we see, they all defend this abuse, this sadistic behavior. That means they all condone this, they all think it's fine. So, they all must be...

      some sort of sadistic group of bastards who love [abusing people]

      It's a very logical train of thought. Both intellectually, and in the gut, with common sense. People who defend abusive, sadistic behavior -- highly logical, highly likely that they would be abusive, sadistic people.

      The remedy? When there IS abuse, when there IS sadistic behavior, for the vast majority of nice good policemen, mayors, governors, etc., to speak up, and speak up immediately, and condemn the behavior. Take action against the individual, censor them, toss them out of the ranks of the police, get it over with quickly and decisively.

      Send a clear consistent message to the public that this type of behavior is wrong, and won't be tolerated.

      But that doesn't usually happen, does it?

      Police, police chiefs, mayors, gov't attorneys, all cluster around to defend the police-person. They do everything possible to keep that person on the force.

      The general public isn't stupid. It's the old "rotten apple in the barrel" situation. We know that if ONE officer is allowed to get away with sadistic abusive behavior, he/she will poison other officers around themselves, change the tenor of accepted practice, if allowed to stay. Worse, the public knows that IF that officer is allowed to stay, it sends a clear message to the rest of the police force. "Do what you want, no matter how abusive, and you'll keep your job. So go for it, no matter what your worst instincts inspire you to do in the moment."

      Like the case where 2 officers, I believe one policeman, one sheriff's deputy, tased a man who'd been tossed from a burning car, most of his skin scraped off by abrasion, or fallen off due to being burnt. Skinless man by side of road after wreck. 911 was called by compassionate witnesses. The man is in shock. That means his thinking brain is turned off, he's in a fog. This is NOT difficult to understand, and anyone on any force who hasn't comprehended that training, should NOT be wearing weapons and intereacting with the public. Being in a daze is normal, even after a fender bender.

      An ambulance should be called, probably has been, but these two gendarmes are on the scene first. The young man is wandering around standing up by the road, and these yahoos decide he should be quiet and lie down. In the gravel. He was NOT threatening anyone. Bystanders were NOT attempting to render first aid, as that type of first aid is beyond the average person to imagine, much less attempt.

      Good golly. You, who're probably going to die soon, you who look like you've been in a horror movie, you who're in shock, quit wandering around! With no skin, lie in the gravel!

      That command, stemming from the inability to tolerate watching a man in shock, with mostly no skin, wandering around at the side of a highway, is what these two officers should have been fired for.

      That and their failure to BACK DOWN once the guy further demonstrated that he was in shock by not comprehending them. Once he drove home the point that the lack of skin apparently didn't signal, that he was in SHOCK by not lying down.

      That and the failure to recognize that asking a person with most of their skin abraded or burned from their body to lie down in gravel is simply going to introduce contamination to a horrible medical emergency, is the antithesis to helping preserve their life.

      That and the failure to recognize that it's not something that the individual is going to want to do, all their instincts will be pointing them away from causing themselves further pain.

      Well, that, and the fact that when their absurd, inhumane commands weren't obeyed, they tased him. Repeatedly. I believe he was sitting on the gravel, but no, they wanted him to lie down, and were yelling at him to do so. Two large mammals with weapons yelling at him, coming at him, closer and closer, is all his reptilian brain could have perceived.

      Aside: (Trust me there was NOTHING of his mammalian brain or human brain [pre-frontal cortex] active at this time. Shock is a physiological reflex, it canNOT be stopped by the thinking brain, shock snaps off the two higher brains when trauma happens. Instantly drops us into the reptilian brain. Leaves us with fight, flight, flight or freeze, period. The young man was in "flight": dissociated, wandering around in a daze. Normal. Likely the best of the three possible reactions to have from him.)

      So now we have this young man in shock, his reptilian brain perceives two large aggressive, yelling mammals coming at him, does NOT understand what they're saying -- and then they TASE HIM. On top of the medical emergency he's in, the excrutiating pain, the incredible rushes of adrenaline, the chemicals of shock still pouring through his body, the fact that most of his skin is gone... he is writhing on the ground with electricity coursing through his body. I believe they tased him twice. Once would do.

      They finally succeed in pushing this young man, who's solely in his reptilian brain,  from "flight" into "fight". He rushes at them. He wants them to stop the pain, stop the tasing, he charges.

      Could they get in their cars and be safe? Absolutely. Do they? No.

      They shoot him and kill him.

      I will NEVER forget the anguish on this young man's father's face and in his voice, as he talked about losing his 25-ish year old son. I believe paramedics had said the young man's life might've been saved. Even if he was dying, if there was no hope, wouldn't you want your son or daughter to be comforted at the last?

      Would you want people screaming at them and tasering them? Or waiting for competant medical help to arrive? Would you want them surrounded by people smart enough to realize, "I'm not a doctor or paramedic, I have nothing to offer in terms of aid to this person."

      So what happened to the officer and sheriff's deputy in question? They got support from attorneys on how to craft their testimony. Support from local officials who said the equivalent of, "It may have been a mistake." Is there no mistake big enough, sadistic enough, or simply stupid enough, to require an officer to be fired? Is there no action so inhumane, so counter to what an injured person needs, that you are soundly condemned for committing it? By all the people you work with? Who want to never be associated with you again?

      Or do they work to retain you in their midst?

      To tie this all together, when the public has detailed accounts of horroribly stupid and abusive actions like this, and the officers aren't soundly condemned and tossed of whatever department they're a part of, the public gets one message:

      "Likely all the members of this department think that abusive behavior is all right."

      The remedy is for ALL the police or sheriff's force to speak up, loudly and clearly, and condemn such idiotic abusive behaviors.

      We're waiting.

      This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

      by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:13:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That taser incident was Sept. 8, 2005 (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Got a Grip, mieprowan

        Brief summary from one web site:

        In the early afternoon of September 8, 2005, police encountered Fouad Kaady shortly after he was in an accident that left him in shock and bleeding, burned over much of his body. Rather than calling for medical help, the police commanded him to lie on the pavement, even though they could see the burned flesh hanging from his body, and even though they said he appeared to be "in a catatonic state." When he did not comply with their orders, but instead continued to sit on the ground in a daze, they tasered him repeatedly. And then, they shot him to death.

        Recent Update on that case:

        Taser News: Judge Rules Against Cop in Fouad Kaady Case
        5:29 PM February 24th, 2009 by James Pitkin
        In a Jan. 30 hearing, U.S. Magistrate Judge Paul Papak concluded that former Sandy Police Officer William Bergin shouldn’t have used his Taser against suspect Fouad Kaady. Papak said Bergin should have known he wasn’t allowed to use a Taser against someone who doesn’t pose an immediate threat but has simply failed to comply with commands.

        The hearing was part of a civil lawsuit over Kaady’s controversial 2005 slaying by Bergin and Clackamas County Sheriff’s Deputy David Willard. The lawsuit — with Kaady’s family represented by legendary trial lawyer Gerry Spence — isn’t the only legal headache Bergin has faced since the shooting.

        This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

        by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:19:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, and AFTER the shooting, Bergin (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Got a Grip, mieprowan

          a) was arrested for driving while intoxicated
          "indicted by a Clackamas County grand jury on three counts including one felony"
          b) giving expired drivers licenses to a minor so said minor could enter clubs they were too young to attend.

          After the first two events, the shooting death and the driving while intoxicated, his police chief had this to say about him:

          Bergin was involved with another officer in the killing of an unarmed man in 2005, but was cleared of wrongdoing in the man’s death. He also was arrested and charged with driving while intoxicated in 2007.

          In both incidents, he was placed on administrative leave while the investigations were conducted. For the DUII arrest, he received disciplinary action, according to Sandy Police Chief Harold Skelton.

          By February of this year, Skelton characterized his officer as “100 percent fit for duty, stable and positive.

          See, that's where the public gets the impression that whole departments condone sadistic or stupid police on the force.

          This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

          by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:29:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Bergin joined the force in May, 2005 (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Zwoof, Got a Grip, mieprowan

          In September, he participated in killing a man. He would have been about 24 years old at the time.

          Bergin joined the Sandy Police Department in May 2005.

          From this blog, which includes info about the killing of Kaady, Bergin, and the Sandy Police Department's corruption:

          This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

          by AllisonInSeattle on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:46:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's horrible... (0+ / 0-)

        ... but my point stands - it's unfair to paint all police officers with this brush. We don't do it with soliders... so why do it with police officers?

        (... and again, to be clear, I'm not saying that the diarist did this. I saw it all over the comments, though... here and elsewhere.)

  •  Just like any other profession, you have knuckle (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Zwoof, Amber6541

    heads and losers as Police Officers as well. But even a trained officer, most  with  good judgement and character can't make a decision that normally requires a physician or OR doctor to make.

    There is a reason why they tell support personnel to stand back while they try to revive someone with an electric shock when their heart stops, or to stay away from trees during a lightning storm for that matter. It can just as easily kill you.

    And yes some of the comments in the diary are pretty standard when it comes to stereotyping cops. I know their are real dickheads out there, but personally every one I have met and talked to are pretty reasonable and understanding folk.

    The idea that the world must be run by the stock market is as mad as any other fundamentalist deulsion, Islamic, Christian or Marxist. -Ronald Wright

    by gereiztkind on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 06:46:41 AM PST

  •  "Excited Delerium?" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle, Zwoof

    You looked to the AMA for a definition. However, it's probably something to be included in the next DSM, as in:

    Excited Delerium: When a police officer gets excited, s/he may become delerious and tase someone repeatedly for no apparent reason, having been told that tasers don't actually hurt anybody.

    Congress is looking into the Bernie Madoff scandal? The guy who made $50 billion disappear is being investigated by the people who made $11 Trillion disappear?

    by SciMathGuy on Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 07:05:05 AM PST

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