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I've been meaning to do a diary forsome time on Shlomo Sand's book, but alas, life has intervened. But in the meantime, I just saw thisa video and it is just horrible, & must be seen;

Here it is again, with some commentary from Al JAzeera

Violence erupted in the occupied West Bank on Wednesday when a Palestinian man entered a petrol station at the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba in the occupied West Bank and stabbed two settlers.

But that was not the end of the story. According to the Israeli army, the Palestinian was then shot by a soldier, after which a car, apparently driven by a settler, ran over the wounded Palestinian, twice, with Israeli soldiers all around.

Jacky Rowland reports.

*Viewers may find some of the images disturbing.

Just horrible, I really am without words.

But as much as we point to the violence of the settlers, that dosen't get the not so silent majority off the hook;

The party of the great vacuum

By Gideon Levy

That is how Kadima stole the left's votes. Tens of thousands of naive (and foolish) people gave their votes to the "center" party, which is not centrist but clearly right-wing, like the entire imaginary Israeli center. In what way is Kadima's Tzachi Hanegbi preferable to Likud's Gideon Sa'ar for voters who deserted Labor and Meretz for the party of the Great White Hope? Why is Mofaz preferable to Defense Minister Ehud Barak, and in what way is Livni better than Netanyahu?

Instead of isolating itself in the opposition, Kadima blurred itself into oblivion. It's true that with his vain words Netanyahu pulled the dubious ideological rug out from under Kadima - after all, hollow talk about two states is what Kadima does - but Netanyahu went one step further and declared a construction freeze in the settlements, even if a temporary and absurd one. When Kadima was in the government it didn't do even that.

And on the settlement front, East Jerusalem is being ethnically cleansed at an alarming rate;

Israel strips thousands of Palestinians of Jerusalem residency rights

By Vita Bekker in Tel Aviv

Israel revoked the residency status of more Palestinians from East Jerusalem in 2008 than during any other year since it captured the territory in 1967, a human rights group said on Wednesday.

HaMoked Centre for the Defence of the Individual, an Israeli organisation advocating Palestinian rights, cited figures obtained from the interior ministry under the Freedom of Information Act. They showed that Israel stripped 4,577 Palestinians of their residency status in the disputed city last year.

That is more than half of the 8,558 total residency revocations in the past 40 years, HaMoked said.

Ethnic cleansing, pure and simple

Israel stripped over 4,500 Jerusalemite Palestinians of their "residency rights" in 2008.

This marks a huge acceleration of a policy that has been in force since Israel occupied East Jerusalem in 1967. In these 41 years, Israel has now stripped over 12,000 Palestinians of their "permits" to live in Jerusalem, 35 per cent or so of those in 2008 alone.

It also maps out exactly where the current right-wing Israeli government, which has made no secret of its wish to Judaise Jerusalem, a travesty of history if ever there was one, is heading.

The policy shows many things about Israel to anyone who wants to see. One is this: Israel does not even bother to pretend to adhere to any kind of international law or internationally accepted standards for behaviour towards a population under occupation.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

This diary has been updated; material pertaining to Shlomo Sand has been removed,and will be presented later, in itsown diary. My apologies for rushing this, as there is much to talk about. That said, I would appreciate it if the discussion of Sand halts for now, to resume in its own diary.

jon

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Just going through the threads of past diaries, and I felt that this one deserved some more discussion in the diary of the various forms of violence contained within. It was discussed in the threads, by myself and others, so I will provide my 2 cents & a link to another threadas well. To say the least, this discussion should have been contained in the diary, but I rushed it; I'll make sure not to do that again.

You know, one of the ways in which this diary was a bit substandard was that I took on a subject that needed more attention & nuance, and just laid it out there for all to freak out at. I of course, focused on the car, others the stabbing, hell others thought the settler's action to be justified. It deserves more time and thought than I gave, or have right now.

But to be brief, I reject the frames that the question in said comment by our dearly departed Ambrose. What has started the incident that the video describes is a 43 year old occupation. The lashing out by the individual by stabbing a settler, however much I don't like it and would have wanted to prevent it, is coming from that larger substrate and environment of colonization and Israeli violence.

When I was there, one of the things I found so hard was to keep my temper; every day you are assaulted, visually, verbally, physically, mentally, the occupation binds you physically in your being. I almost got in trouble once when I lost my temper with a soldier, who then declared "I will treat you like i treat them" and forced me to wait for an hour before he then tried to get police to arrest me (they did not, to his frustration). I cannot imagine how Palestinians can manage, living in such violence and maintaining their dignity, which so many do so well; I mean I was there 6 months!

So this is where the violence starts, and then after the man is shot, helpless and seemingly in custody, this settler sees fit to make an example of him, to show just how worthless he is in the eyes of the Israeli settler, how inconsequential his life is. He is literally roadkill, and I feel this incident is very close in spirit to a lynching.

So none of the violence is to be approved ofimho; but the context is crucial, as you can see.

Originally posted to jon the antizionist jew on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 09:56 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (15+ / 0-)

    "I have no emotional obligation to [a] militarist & politically aggressive nation-state which asks for my solidarity on racial grounds" E. Hobsbawm

    by jon the antizionist jew on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 09:56:17 AM PST

    •  Hehe (10+ / 0-)

      Recommended by: Deward Hastings

      Tells you all you really need to know about the diary.

      "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

      by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:09:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually (10+ / 0-)

        it tells you precious little. But your comment certainly says something about your determination not to address the substance of the diary and to derail any serious discussion by others. The facts presented here are ugly and they keep coming. Every week brings more than enough to fill several diaries like this every day with examples of the trampling of Palestinian rights by Israel. Since the facts presented are highly inconvenient to your world view you and your friends participation is limited largely to finding extraneous issues around which you can hope to ignite flame wars. Like for example, the ridiculous suggestion that diarists are to be judged not by the content of their diaries but by whether or not they are recced by such and such a person. There is a name for people whose participation in these forums takes this form. They are called trolls.

        •  like the right to stab innocent women? Fail n/t (7+ / 0-)

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:06:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah (2+ / 0-)

            Thats what this diary is about. Not.

          •  The 1862 Lakota Uprising (6+ / 0-)

            The whole damn thing is just dripping with pathos. While this comment thread has predictably completely degenerated, I think incidents like this actually deserve more serious discussion, not because any of the parties behaved well or justifiably, but rather because of how their screwed up actions fit into a larger structural dynamic.

            A piece of American history that has always fascinated me, and that this incident made me think of, is the 1862 Lakota Uprising in Minnesota. The whole thing was set off when four young Lakota men killed five white settlers.

            The killing of the settlers was on its face a brutal act and was regarded as stupid and reckless in the extreme by the Lakota leader, Little Crow. At the same time it occurred in a larger context of truly terrible treatment of the Lakota by the white settlers. The Lakota had already been pushed off their lands and were in effect being starved to death by the US government which had agreed to provide for them after their displacement.

            Long story short Little Crow decided that since the US Army was going to come and get them anyway that they should rise up. It didn't end well, and 38 Lakota were hung on the orders of Abraham Lincoln in the largest legal execution in US history.

            The incident of the stabbing and the car seems similar. On its face its just another sad example of all around human ugliness. But context gives it meaning that it may not deserve but gets nonetheless. Without knowing any particulars that might have precipitated the stabbing, the fact that the stabber is Palestinian and his victims are settlers on stolen Palestinian land makes it impossible to simply view as a normal crime because there is nothing normal in the relationship. Similarly the guy in the car might in another context be just a husband losing his shit. Not someone whose actions can be defended, but still someone whose actions can be understood. But in the larger context it is impossible to simply view this as a husband losing his shit because of course settlers are generally able to go off on Palestinians with impunity even if in this case the guy actually got arrested. This is one of the truly insidious ways that racism operates, by simply weaving itself into every interaction such that its impossible to really sort through peoples motives.

            •  yes, the false normality (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Anorish, soysauce

              is a problem. The act of the colonized using acts of violence against the colonizer, and then that colonizer or another using his impunity to make 'an example' of that 'native' is very important. This is not an interaction between equals, their behavior is conditioned and dictated by such power relationships, and cannot be taken at face value, ie "well, if someone stabbed my friend/wife/husband, I'd be mad," etc.

              I believe Fannon wrote quite a bit about this stuff.

              •  Fanon (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jon the antizionist jew

                not Fannon (which sounds like an anti-colonialist brand of yoghurt to me). The chapter "Concerning Violence" in Wretched of the Earth is all about this dynamic. I think there are real problems with Fanon's analysis, but also think that its mandatory reading for any intelligent discussion of this sort of thing.

                Look, for all we know this particular settler doesn't have a grain of racist hatred in his heart and really is just a distraught husband who just saw his wife stabbed. The problem is that given that we can't know the content of his heart and can't ignore the larger context no amount of testimonials on his behalf would ever be convincing. I believe this is what is called overdetermination.

        •  Generally speaking (13+ / 0-)

          if you find a comment uprated by Deward Hastings, it's one of several possible indicators that it's a piece of shit.

          determination not to address the substance of the diary

          I take it you skipped over the news articles I posted that revealed:

          1. The driver was the husband of one of Stabby McStabber's victims.
          1. Stabby is now being treated in an Israeli hospital.
          1. The driver is now under arrest and facing attempted murder charges.

          Every week brings more than enough to fill several diaries like this every day with examples of the trampling of Palestinian rights by Israel.

          Indeed, there are numerous abuses of Palestinians committed by Israel. Yet we get a huge turd of a diary like this, which assails "Gruesome Israeli Settler Violence" while glossing over the fact that said violence was the result of attempted murder by the supposed "victim."

          "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

          by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:08:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  *golf claps* (7+ / 0-)

          Very nice stump speech, CD. I especially liked:

          The facts presented here are ugly and they keep coming.

          But, as demonstrated below, not from Jon they're not.

          harps and angels! harps and angels!

          by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:41:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I really don't understand why callouts like that (5+ / 0-)

          aren't HR-on-sight. How are we supposed to discuss this diary (or correct factual errors, or provide mitigating info, or etc) when likely more than half of the 400+ comments here are simply personal attacks? The first comment after the tip jar is a personal attack on someone who tipped the jar? And that gets 7 uprates? Really?

          I don't envy your job, MB. There are a lot of people here who seem determined to trash the place.

      •  Mocked by Red Pen (0+ / 0-)

        Tells you all you really need to know about the diary.

    •  Sand and the "Khazar" bit (8+ / 0-)

      Why doesn't it surprise me you'd rush to embrace it in all its idiocy?

      harps and angels! harps and angels!

      by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:11:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jon, with all due respect, (8+ / 0-)

      you need to think this diary through (perhaps delete it), apply some nuance and critical thinking and then republish.  Just my two cents.  Hugs.

      If Israelis and Palestinians...can struggle together, then this movement will embody the world they wish to create... -Sami Hermez on BDS

      by soysauce on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:14:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This diary (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JPhurst, leftynyc, MBNYC, sorenScostanza

      is such a great synopsis of the conflict, so I thank you Jon the Khazar for writing it.

      Here we have a Palestinian man who attempts murder by stabbing two Jews, who just happened to move into the neighborhood.  One of the Jews is a woman--a wife--a true innocent being.  Her husband comes to her rescue and fully immobilizes the attempted murderer--and yet instead of being applauded for his self-defense in protecting his loved one, is castigated for his violence.

      But whats really emblematic here, is that the diarist, like the entire Palestinian narrative, fails to highlight the most important fact--that prior to the husband running over the attempted murderer, the attempted murderer tried to kill his wife.

      This is just so much better than my Ida story in an earlier diary--because in this case, its fucking true.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:32:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would agree with this and rec. it but for one (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1, MBNYC, MoshebenAvraham

        thing, this comment:

        like the entire Palestinian narrative

        There certainly is part of that but it is not the "entire" narrative. Honestly there is a legit. case for certain things said - but....

        Otherwise your comment is 1000% right. I just wish you had not put in those five words. Other than that you have my support for everything else in it.

        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:35:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  In another perspective (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MoshebenAvraham

        the driver valued vengeance over caring for the well being of his wounded wife.   And premeditavely carried it out.  What does that suggest as an element of "the narrative'?

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:41:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Mischaracterization, as usual. (10+ / 0-)

        Why do you believe that nobody will notice how you twist shit worse than Bill-O the Clown?

        ...two Jews, who just happened to move into the neighborhood.

        Their right to move into that neighborhood is widely disputed - by the Palestinians themselves and by the United Nations.  Possibly also by international law, but I'm not fully up on the international law part - yet.  That doesn't go anywhere NEAR justifying the attack, but you make it sound like they were living in downtown Tel Aviv, not the West Bank.

        They "just happened" to move into an Occupied War Zone?  And this neighborhood wouldn't HAPPEN to be on Palestinian land in the West Bank, would it?  No idea that there might be any problems, huh?  The soldiers walking the streets with fully-automatic weapons didn't give them any clue that it might be a violent area, huh?  Riiiight.  You don't get it that the people who "just happen to move into that neighborhood" are seen as part of a land-theft effort, do you?  No, they shouldn't have been stabbed.  But ideally, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.  

        And then THIS laughable view:

        Her husband comes to her rescue and fully immobilizes the attempted murderer...

        He comes to his wife's (got a citation for the "wife" claim?  I didn't see that in the diary or the video.) "rescue" by driving a car over a man - TWICE?  Shouldn't he have been attending to her wounds?  The asshole who attacked her was already SHOT WITH MILITARY ROUNDS and was LYING ON THE GROUND, BLEEDING while being guarded by members of the IDF.  Obviously not a threat to anybody at the time.

        How do you define "fully-immobilized" - crushed into the concrete?  Is "shot and lying on the ground, bleeding from a gunshot wound" not quite immobile enough for you?  Do you feel that the soldiers who shot the attacker might have let him scamper off into the woods for medical aid?  Maybe you do...

        Then, you advocate for the rewarding of violence:

        ...instead of being applauded for his self-defense in protecting his loved one, is castigated for his violence.

        Running over and then backing over a man who is defenseless, wounded, and lying on the ground is NOT an "applaud-able" act.  Period.  End of sentence.  Full stop.  Conditions do not apply.

        What the driver did was commit an act of vengeance, not self-defense of anybody.  You actually COMPLAIN that this guy was "castigated" for his violence?  Even the ISRAELIS put that asshole under arrest!  You want him to be rewarded with applause?  He deserves every bit as much reward as the asshole who did the stabbing.

        You are such a disgusting piece of work lately.

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

        by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:59:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

          helping to stop the guy who just tried to murder your wife is simply always justified.  If someone tries to kill my wife, you better bet I'm going to make sure he isn't about to go anywhere.  Automatic weapons, by the way, are carried all over Israel, not just in Hevron.  And there has been a Jewish community in Hevron since the beginning of time.  So besides the fact that your facts are all wrong...

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:05:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're completely off the rails. (3+ / 0-)

            He didn't help anything - except his own anger.

            You still don't cite anything confirming your "wife" claim, so I'll have to reject that idea.

            You ignore the fact that the guy he ran over WAS ALREADY LYING ON THE GROUND, UNDER IDF GUARD, AND BLEEDING FROM A GUNSHOT WOUND.  Inconvenient facts for you, I know, but facts nonetheless.

            WHERE automatic weapons are carried is of no consequence - they knew where they were moving to.

            Finally, these people are COLONISTS, not part of some ancient community.

            Facts - they burn you.

            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

            by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:13:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you read the diary and comments (0+ / 0-)

              you'd know the wife thing was true.  I'm not doing your job for you...

              He was already lying on the ground but still alive.  Regardless, if you stab my wife, you should prepare to quickly meet Allah, regardless of whether the soldiers want to do anything about it.

              They aren't part of an ancient community, because the ancient community in Hevron kinda had to leave after the 1929 Hevron massacre where Jews were slaughtered en masse...

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:22:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Facts - they burn you. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mattman, jon the antizionist jew

                Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:23:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  uh... (0+ / 0-)

                  http://www.heraldsun.com.au/...

                  and

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                  But I'm not doing any more research for you if you're too lazy to read the links here.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:24:45 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not sure he comprehends these things. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zannie, Celtic Merlin

                  all your points flew past him and just changed the subject.

                  Seriously, I don't get why you bother, this isn't a new phenomenon.

                  Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

                  by borkitekt on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:45:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Kuz it's FUN to taunt him and unwind his spin. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    borkitekt

                    Well, you unwind his spin first, THEN you taunt him over having done it.

                    Also, it's fun to see the progression of his backpedal when the FACTS are presented two and three times in a row.  This exchange was a prime example.  Read his "This diary" comment first - where he presents all of the spun and twisted Bill-O the Clown-type "facts" as he sees them, and then read each reply from him after it.  The facts don't really change - only how he presents his version of the event.  The word "rescue" eventually disappears, the guy on the ground goes from being a dangerous, knife-wielding, highly-mobile maniac who needs to be immobilized by the driver of the expensive Mercedes-Benz sedan to "on the ground BUT STILL ALIVE".  The "but still alive" part being his ultimate crime, it seems.  Valid points get ignored (as you mentioned) and subjects change.

                    Eventually, even Volleyboy1 tried to come to his aid with a bunch of dates of things which had as much to do with this event as the results of the 2004-05 Stanley Cup Finals.

                    Oldskool and Red Sox tried to make some big deal out of whether or not the wife of the guy in the Benz was one of the victims.  All I asked of oldskool was one good link.  Eventually, he provided two and Sox a third.  As though it was critical to determining if any crimes had been committed by either of the two violent assholes in this situation.

                    I do this to him, gatorfart, and some of the other twisters of reality.  Because the facts - they burn these guys.

                    Celtic Merlin
                    Carlinist

                    PS - Drop me an e-mail, would ya?  The address is in my DKos profile.

                    Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                    by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:37:58 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Well they were slaughtered in 1936 AND 1929 (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MoshebenAvraham, Gatordiet

                and in Jaffa in 1917-18 and in the Etzion bloc.... and in................

                Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:16:47 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  The wife claim is absolutely true (5+ / 0-)

              "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

              by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:26:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Your idea of self-defense won't ... (7+ / 0-)

        ...pass muster in any U.S. court.

        Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:42:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  if the attack had been a carjacking (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          in La. it would....

          http://law.wustl.edu/...

          (link insert wouldn't work)

          as it specifically allows for 'unlawful force' to be used

          or an attack inside the home in La. it would as well, with ability of homeowner to stand their ground and use force.

          "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

          by JNEREBEL on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:06:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, it wouldn't ... (8+ / 0-)

            ...Even under this ludicrous Louisiana statute (and no-retreat laws on the books or proposed in various states), the driver in this case is outside the law.

            From your link:

            The statute justifies homicide when either a passenger or driver reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary or robbery of the vehicle through the use of any unlawful force.

            Unless one is mentally unbalanced, it is not reasonable to believe that a wounded and disarmed man surrounded by soldiers (or law enforcement officers) is attempting to commit any crime whatsoever.

            No existing no-retreat laws in the States allow someone to kill another who is fleeing the scene of a crime or who has already been disabled.

            Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:32:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well I saw that "reasonable" (0+ / 0-)

              qualifier and (having been reared there) I could most easily see a jury finding those actions reasonable.

              Especially if there is race involved.

              Sad as it makes me to say it...

              "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

              by JNEREBEL on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 08:14:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  How and where in that document (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie

            does it suggest so?

            Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

            by borkitekt on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:57:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I agree agree with you re: the US.. (0+ / 0-)

          and I'm a lawyer... On the other hand, the Israeli court system is different than the American court system... and its kind of strange to judge Israeli self-defense (or any other country's view of self-defense) by American standards.

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:25:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd also say... (0+ / 0-)

            that a case like this probably wouldn't get to too many courts, because most juries would never convict the victim's husband and prosecutors would try to plea it out to a misdemeanor or drop it altogether..

            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

            by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:30:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I believe in self-defense. If someone... (4+ / 0-)

            ...was directly threatening my life or the life of my love ones and I thought the only way to stop them or me from being killed, I would not hesitate to take that someone's life. I would do this even if the law forbade me from doing this (although that's not true in any state of the U.S.).

            I would not, however, wound that someone and, as they lay incapacitated and unarmed, attempt to kill them. And I would not chase them down the street shooting at them. Because THAT is not self-defense. It's murder.    

            A jury (or judges) in many countries might not convict someone who ran over a stabber in the circumstances shown in this diary. Jurors or judges might consider his attack an understandable moment of rage.

            That, however, doesn't make what the settler did right or just. Self-defense, of course, is defined by laws - and these do, of course, vary from country to country. But the real issue here is a moral one, and I don't think my view that this went beyond legitimate self defense is even slightly "strange."

            Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 08:35:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

              the law of self defense is more nuanced.  The force used needs to be reasonable under the common law of most jurisdictions, though it varies from state to state and is modified by statute in some jurisdictions.

              Now, lets say someone shoots at you wife.. then runs the other way.  You chase them down the street shooting back at them.  You kill them.  That isn't murder.  There's no malice aforethought.  

              I think where you and I talked past each other on is the law of self defense vs. the moral principle of self defense.  You might argue that neither is justified here.  I'd argue the law of self defense is different in Israel and than America, though the moral self defense argument is the same.

              And whether you call it vigilante justice or not, if someone tries to kill my wife or rape my daughter, I'm not sure, as a husband and father, I would not respond in kind and perfectly justify it according to my moral code and my G-d.  

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 09:28:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course, I understand your last paragraph ... (4+ / 0-)

                ...entirely at the emotional level. I know if that were attempted against my wife or step-daughter, and especially if the attempt succeeded, my reptile brain would kick in.

                But civilization is in great part built upon controlling our reptile brains.

                In California, if you kill someone in the act of trying to kill you or a family member, you'll have little trouble defending yourself - it's highly unlikely charges will be laid against you.

                But say someone tries to kill you or your daughter. Then they run away and jump in their car and no longer pose a threat. But you grab your gun, run out of the house, and as they drive by you on the street, you shoot and kill them. In California, that's second-degree murder, and it is punishable by life in prison without the possibility of parole. If you're white and have a good enough lawyer, you could probably get it plea bargained down to manslaughter, maybe even second-degree manslaughter.    

                Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:08:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with everything (0+ / 0-)

                  you said here... So the question is, is this a case with an intervening action (e.g. the attempted murderer was shot so it is more akin to the attempted murderer running away and no longer posing a threat) or is this a case where the compassionate husband mode kicked in properly (e.g. the attempted murderer was still right there, it was immediately after the attack, and the attempted murderer was still clearly alive).

                  Seems to me, given the provocation of this guy stabbing his wife and a 16 year old girl, no jury in American outside the South would convict him.. and likely no jury in Israel either.  Given the already clogged Israeli court system (unlike here, in Israel it is every citizens right to petition the Supreme Court directly--no joke), I'd doubt this guy spends any time in jail.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 07:36:08 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Gruesome Israeli Settler Violence (14+ / 0-)

    Violence erupted in the occupied West Bank on Wednesday when a Palestinian man entered a petrol station at the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba in the occupied West Bank and stabbed two settlers.

    But that was not the end of the story. According to the Israeli army, the Palestinian was then shot by a soldier, after which a car, apparently driven by a settler, ran over the wounded Palestinian, twice, with Israeli soldiers all around.

    Can't imagine why that guy met some "Gruesome Israeli Settler Violence."

    Another bang-up diary...

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

    by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:04:05 AM PST

  •  If you're going to condemn the settler violence, (9+ / 0-)

    you should at least condemn the Palestinian who stabbed the two Israelis that set the whole thing off in the first place.

    But that wouldn't fit the narrative, would it?

    •  Of course it wouldn't fit (6+ / 0-)

      But that wouldn't fit the narrative, would it?

      The stabbing? Not worth a mention. The reaction, well that's what was gruesome.

      "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

      by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:08:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you are going to condemn the Palestinian (0+ / 0-)

      shouldn't you condemn the settler who stole the Palestinian's land then ran over the guy when he fought back?

      When the camel stumbles, the knives come out. (Arab proverb)

      by Ptah the Great on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:33:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Since you can't get past sockpuppetry (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1

        I'm going to pose the exact same question to you.  Any response?

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:32:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  Jon, you aren't stupid (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1

            so don't act stupid.  And I won't treat you like you're stupid.

            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

            by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 01:11:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  the threads are a bit of a mess (0+ / 0-)

              and there is no need for such silliness; you have a question, well then if you could please do me the courtesy and ask it so I know precisely what it is we're talking about. I''m sure that's not too much to ask, and if it is, well then I guess it isn't worth asking, right?

              "I have no emotional obligation to [a] militarist & politically aggressive nation-state which asks for my solidarity on racial grounds" E. Hobsbawm

              by jon the antizionist jew on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 01:39:08 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This comment (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jon the antizionist jew

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                And yes, I see now how much back & forth is going on.  Thought you were being coy with me as a way to avoid answering a difficult question.

                In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 04:39:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  just making sure (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Paul in Berkeley

                  You know, one of the ways in which this diary was a bit substandard was that I took on a subject that needed more attention & nuance, and just laid it out there for all to freak out at. I of course, focused on the car, others the stabbing, hell others thought the settler's action to be justified. It deserves more time and thought than I gave, or have right now.

                  But to be brief, I reject the frames that the question in said comment by our dearly departed Ambrose. What has started the incident that the video describes is a 43 year old occupation. The lashing out by the individual by stabbing a settler, however much I don't like it and would have wanted to prevent it, is coming from that larger substrate and environment of colonization and Israeli violence.

                  When I was there, one of the things I found so hard was to keep my temper; every day you are assaulted, visually, verbally, physically, mentally, the occupation binds you physically in your being. I almost got in trouble once when I lost my temper with a soldier, who then declared "I will treat you like i treat them" and forced me to wait for an hour before he then tried to get police to arrest me (they did not, to his frustration). I cannot imagine how Palestinians can manage, living in such violence and maintaining their dignity, which so many do so well; I mean I was there 6 months!

                  So this is where the violence starts, and then after the man is shot, helpless and seemingly in custody, this settler sees fit to make an example of him, to show just how worthless he is in the eyes of the Israeli settler, how inconsequential his life is. He is literally roadkill, and I feel this incident is very close in spirit to a lynching.

                  So none of the violence is to be approved ofimho; but the context is crucial, as you can see.

                  "I have no emotional obligation to [a] militarist & politically aggressive nation-state which asks for my solidarity on racial grounds" E. Hobsbawm

                  by jon the antizionist jew on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 04:58:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thank you for your thoughtful answer (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jon the antizionist jew

                    I understand exactly what you are saying, and I pretty much agree. People living under extreme stress on a constant basis, they snap, they go postal.  None of the violence is excusable, but it is explainable.

                    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                    by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 06:21:05 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

  •  "An attempt to prejudge" (0+ / 0-)
    Great line:

    As if Israel had not unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem and is not continually housing more settlers there

    "And the biggest self of self is, indeed, self." Mark Sanford

    by Paleo on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:08:26 AM PST

  •  Huh? (5+ / 0-)

    a Palestinian man entered a petrol station at the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba in the occupied West Bank and stabbed two settlers.

    Why is this not the focus of your diary, as the precipitating event?

    I'm a dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.

    by rennert on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:08:30 AM PST

  •  Ethnic cleansing continue apace (7+ / 0-)
    in East Jerusalem:

    http://www.haaretz.com/...

    "And the biggest self of self is, indeed, self." Mark Sanford

    by Paleo on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:09:06 AM PST

  •  Wait the man stabbed two people (7+ / 0-)

    at Petrol Station and I am supposed to be mad about this? What should they have done Jon? Given him a fucking medal.....

    Yeah it is just horrible the man walked into a station and stabbed two people. Is that what you are saying.

    Here something else in the news today:

    Stories appearing on several Ukrainian Web sites claim Israel has brought around some 25,000 Ukrainian children into the country over the past two years in order to harvest their organs.

    The claim, which was made by a Ukrainian philosophy professor and author at a pseudo-academic conference in Kiev five days ago, is the latest expression of a wave of anti-Semitism in the country. It comes a few months after a Swedish tabloid ran an article alleging that Israel Defense Forces soldiers have killed Palestinian civilians for their organs.

    http://www.haaretz.com/...

    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:12:28 AM PST

  •  The phony "freeze" (4+ / 0-)
    Netanyahu to the "settlers," via Haaretz:

    "This order is one-time only and it limits the duration of the suspension. There are nine months and three weeks left. Once the suspension has expired, we will continue to build.

    Translation:  "we'll resume violating international law in nine months."

    And, anyway, they're continuing to build with the "suspension."  Some freeze.

    "And the biggest self of self is, indeed, self." Mark Sanford

    by Paleo on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:14:18 AM PST

    •  Paleo - As Jon said to me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Red Sox

      Why don't you write a diary on it.

      BTW, they are violating the freeze plenty. What in the wide, wide world of Sports does it have to do with this diary?

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:35:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, I think it is on-topic (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zemblan, sorenScostanza

        It fits into the general "Israel sucks" narrative being pushed by Jon the Iusedtobea Jew.

        "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

        by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:41:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh yes good point (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Red Sox, sorenScostanza, Gatordiet

          I thought it could be JontheantizionistKhazer now though. That one would make sense.

          Hey let's publish every fucked up book about the Jews...I think we can manage this one.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:46:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, Israel does suck. (1+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          jon the antizionist jew
          Hidden by:
          JNEREBEL

          Ethnic cleansing nearly a million Palestinians at inception and never stopping, occupying them for over 40 years, denying them self-determination,  committing massacres against them from time to time, the constant acts of cruelty, stealing from them, depriving them of food, medicine and even home, taking and torturing their children and on and on and on...

          You've been right all along, Red. Israel Fucking Sucks.

          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

          by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:16:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think you've now adequately summed (7+ / 0-)

            up the spirit of the non-Palestinian pro-P posters here:

            Israel Fucking Sucks.

            "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

            by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:17:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jon the antizionist jew, Eiron

              I've pretty much summed up the outcome of Israel's folly for the last 60 years.

              Oh and I speak for no one but me. Always have.

              But I would be interested in understanding how Israel doesn't suck with all things considered. Taking someone's child and torturing them? How does a state not suck for doing this? What about ethnic cleansing? Massacres? Things like that...

              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

              by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:30:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  When such actions (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                callmecassandra

                are State Policy, it sure ain't a laurel.  

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:32:48 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I take it you criticize other countries as much (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Captain C, volleyboy1

                as Israel?  I'm sure you have lots of posts criticizing Turkey and Syria and Sudan and India and Pakistan and Sri Lanka and China, etc?

                Right?

                •  I criticize policies (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza

                  not countries or peoples or people.  That's where we differ.

                  Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                  by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:59:14 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Hell yes! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jon the antizionist jew, Conure

                  My own country for one. Leading the pack. We f'cking suck. We suck for what we did to Iraq. We suck for what we're doing to Afghanistan. We suck for what we are doing to Pakistan. We have betrayed, tortured, murdered countless with no end in sight and no leader and public will to stop it. The list of great wrongs we've done seems endless...and I haven't even gotten into domestic issues.

                  The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                  by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:10:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And other than Israel and America? n/t (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1
                    •  Who's worse than "U.S."? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jon the antizionist jew

                      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                      by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:21:54 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  China? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1

                        Or do a million dead in Tibet and 300,000 dead in Darfur not matter to you?

                        •  Why am I constantly plagued... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          capelza, jon the antizionist jew

                          with lightweights?

                          Or do a million dead in Tibet and 300,000 dead in Darfur not matter to you?

                          Ugh...let me know when you're ready to discuss this with face value in mind and not with your paranoid misconstructions.

                          But this is interesting. I tell you that I believe the U.S. sucks worse than Israel and you're still pissy?

                          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                          by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:17:35 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Are you criticising Israel (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          capelza, jon the antizionist jew

                          for hot deportation of African refugees, or Israeli government support of Arms sales to the Darfuri rebels?

                          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                          by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:30:44 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  yes as a matter of fact (0+ / 0-)

                            I have and in a diary regarding the Ethiopian students.

                            Any other questions?

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:49:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't see your diary about the Ethiopian (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jon the antizionist jew

                            students, I assume it was about the Ethiopian Jewish Immigrants who can't seem to find a school that would take them.  I was referring to Israel's practice of deporting refugees without a hearing.   Did you also do a diary on that?    
                            Did you do a diary on ISraeli arms sales to the Darfurian rebels?  Must missed it.
                            At any rate I was responding to Gator's slur on me.  I look forward to reading his diary on the French Arabs murdered in the Banlieues daily, he seems to be only concerned about a jewish one.  

                            Do you think he is a bit preferentially concerned about just Jewish victims?.  

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:36:00 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nope no diary on deportations (0+ / 0-)

                            Nor on Darfur...

                            Do you think he is a bit preferentially concerned about just Jewish victims?.

                            He might be but I think you are preferentially concerned about non-Jewish victims and that goes for a lot of other people here. I think that goes for many people in this argument and that gets let by so if Gator is preferential - I let that pass.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:42:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It isn't racist (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jon the antizionist jew

                            to preferentially, consistently and obsessively privilege one etho-religious group over another?  That and the McArthyite paranoia about crypto racists are just not normal.

                            The only reason I am concerned about the victims of Israeli policies, is because it isn't good for ISrael to have a lot of avoidable victims.   I don't consider myself particularly pro-palestinian.  Just anti-Jewish folks oppressing another group, because it is bad for the Jews, not because I have any special affinity for the Palestinians, per se.

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:52:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No it is not - then that would make (0+ / 0-)

                            many completely racist here. Actually I would say it might be but I would be told I was wrong....

                            I agree with you regarding certain Israeli Policies, but, I would say you do not characterize yourself correctly. I have seen too much from you that says otherwise.

                            Honestly, and I am being brutally honest here - I don't think you have our (Jewish people's best interests at heart). Moreso, I honestly think given things you have written that you don't much like us. Anti-Semitic? Borderline in my opinion.

                            I am just being honest. Hopefully I am wrong and you can prove that but I am not the only one who thinks this. And perhaps I do not understand your "trying to help" feelings. So I would be open to that possibility.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:02:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I love Israel and the faith enough (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jon the antizionist jew

                            to say to misguided practice and policies, "stop being stupid", it harms Israel and the Jews.   Please stop.  When you see a Jew acting in direct opposition to the teachings of the faith, should we not speak up?

                            Other folks may define pro-Israeli, and derivatively, or the reverse,  as pro occupation.  Land trumps faith.  

                            An honest disagreement

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:54:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Jon (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Captain C

                            we disagree on Zionism, as our parents and grandparents may have.  I don't believe in a broadly normative zionism that all jews should aspire to reside in Israel, but I do believe those jews that desire to, should be able to do so.   The long shadow of colonialism presents one of the biggest challenges to a successful establishment of a State of Israel.  it is "baked in" to the problem.  

                            The colonialist argument falls apart when one examines the constructive elements.  Europeans aren't emigrating to the region in order to extract minerals, exploit local labor, and return wealth to Europe.  Zionist Jews wish to make a home and nation in the place, not move commodities and wealth back to a "homeland"  Israel is the homeland.  

                            The utter 'fail" was the colonialist elements of the disregard for the inhabitants of the place they wished to make their state.

                            On that charge, we are accountable

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:07:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  well (0+ / 0-)

                            I have no problem with Jews living there, oranywhere else for that matter. Before Zionism many did live there, and got along pretty well. Colonialism does not present a challenge to the establishment of a Zionist Israel; it was the requirement. Herzl saw quite early on that the protection of a Eurpean power was necessary to carve out a territory for a Jewish state. The problem is, the carving continues to the present day.

                            I would disagree that the colonial paradigm falls short. I would say that the standard colonial paradigm of resource exploitation cannot explain the motivations and organization of Zionist colonialists, for sure. But there are other motivations and structures at play here, some very specific to Zionism.

                            First, the ideological nature of Zionist colonization was primary, moreso than the material. We see that in the clash between the first few aliyahs in the late 1800's with the post 1904-04 ones. Early on, Jewish immigrants found it difficult to compete with Palestinians for jobs, as they could not maintain a European standard of living. They tended to end up in cities, and if they did work in agriculture, they did so as landowners rather than compete with the locals. But the larter Aliyahs introduced much more committed colonists (and better funded) that set up Jewish-only economic and social structures; the kibbutz and moshav, the histadrut, the 'hebrew only' labor movement, all of which took off during the British mandate.

                            Despite this success in creating a jewish-israeli economy, Israel has remained dependent on capital flows from Jews/Jewish organizations abroad and their imperial protector of the day (the UK, France, the US). And this ideological motive is not unique to Zionism. The Pilgrims came to the New world in part if not mostly due to their desire for a new home in a new land (and patterned it in Old Testament cloth), having no idea at first as to the extent and riches of the Americas.

                            Lastly, if you get a chance, pick up the sand book, its worth the read.

                            "I have no emotional obligation to [a] militarist & politically aggressive nation-state which asks for my solidarity on racial grounds" E. Hobsbawm

                            by jon the antizionist jew on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 03:29:13 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL...you never fail to let me down Eiron (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            Always blaming Israel for all the problems of the world.

                            But always "speaking out against actual anti-semitism" ...except never actually doing that.

                            With "anti-zionist" friends like you...

                          •  He doesn't need to speak out against (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zemblan, MoshebenAvraham, volleyboy1

                            anti-Semitism. He has TEH JOO MEDIA to do it for him. And aren't we all grateful for that...

                            "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                            by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:20:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Does it matter to you? (2+ / 0-)

                          Except as a crudgel to beat pro-P commentors with?

                •  Let's assume the commenter NEVER criticizes (2+ / 0-)

                  any other country in the world?

                  What bearing does that have on the substance of the critique - or on the rightness or wrongness of Israel's actions?

                  Your argument is based on logical fallacy 101.

                  Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                  by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:41:21 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Well, yeah (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Captain C

                Oh and I speak for no one but me. Always have.

                Who the fuck would you speaking for them?

                But I would be interested in understanding how Israel doesn't suck with all things considered.

                Name a state that doesn't "suck" in some way, shape, or form. You curiously focus your sights on Israel for some reason, as if it is somehow unique in not being the perfect country.

                "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:04:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hm... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jon the antizionist jew

                  Who the fuck would you speaking for them?

                  Did you forget the "be"? And did you mean "then" and not "them?

                  Name a state that doesn't "suck"

                  Well, I believe I've addressed your concern. Perhaps you should take the time...

                  You curiously focus your sights on Israel for some reason, as if it is somehow unique in not being the perfect country.

                  Please don't start this dumb shit. It's beneath you. Oh and does this mean you actually agree that Israel sucks?

                  The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                  by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:12:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Hmmmm... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, volleyboy1

                    Did you forget the "be"? And did you mean "then" and not "them?

                    No, I forgot the "want" between "would" and "you."

                    Well, I believe I've addressed your concern. Perhaps you should take the time...

                    You named a state that doesn't suck?

                    Please don't start this dumb shit. It's beneath you.

                    Spare me your psychosis. It's a simple fact that merits mention. I'm sure you'll figure out a way to spin it as some unfair accusation of anti-Semitism as just about every pro-P poster has done here at one time or another.

                    It is what it is...

                    Oh and does this mean you actually agree that Israel sucks?

                    To varying degrees, I think every government has qualities that suck. The difference is, I don't find this lack of virtue limited to Israel.

                    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                    by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:16:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ah, I see... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jon the antizionist jew

                      Who the fuck would want you speaking for them?

                      Well, it has now come to my attention, that I speak for you apparently.

                      You named a state that doesn't suck?

                      I named a state that does. No state in existence is innocent, which, by the by, was never part of any argument I presented.

                      I'm sure you'll figure out a way to spin it as some unfair accusation of anti-Semitism as just about every pro-P poster has done here at one time or another.

                      How did you come to the idea that I may accuse you of "unfair accusation"? What, in the sentence you blockquoted above, took you there?

                      To varying degrees, I think every government has qualities that suck.

                      And yet you get into a huff because I stated out loud what you inwardly believed. heh....

                      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                      by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:35:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Fail (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        livosh1, callmecassandra, volleyboy1

                        This wasn't a good effort on your part, Cass. Too transparent.

                        But since I like you, I have a consolation gift for you:

                        "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                        by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:39:16 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What you mean to say... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          jon the antizionist jew

                          is that you have no rebuttal. But you never lose gracefully - as in, you never admit concession.

                          And don't lie. You don't like me.

                          You adore me.;)

                          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                          by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:45:07 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  There's nothing to rebut (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1

                            Come up with something worthy of a response, and you'll get a rebuttal. I've never shied away from responding to you in the past.

                            You adore me.;)

                            This much is true.

                            "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                            by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:50:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course there's nothing to rebut. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Red Sox

                            I didn't allow you any room to do so.

                            This much is true.

                            This much I know.  

                            By the by - I'm getting old so I can't remember if you just found out ya'll were pregnant or that you've had the baby. In either case, congrats to you and Mrs. Sox.:)

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:09:24 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you kindly (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, callmecassandra

                            By the by - I'm getting old so I can't remember if you just found out ya'll were pregnant or that you've had the baby. In either case, congrats to you and Mrs. Sox.:)

                            Baby Sox is coming this spring.

                            Day care around here goes for about $1,500/month, so if you know any banks I can stick up, that would be awesome.

                            "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                            by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:13:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I take that back... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          jon the antizionist jew

                          But you never lose gracefully - as in, you never admit concession.

                          I should amend never to rarely as you have admitted concession. Once. And it was most gracious of you.

                          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                          by callmecassandra on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:49:41 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

            •  Were that true it'd have dozens of Recs (0+ / 0-)

              By you never tire of smearing those who disagree with your right wing worldview.

              "These old Wall Street boys are putting up an awful fight to keep the government from putting a cop on their corner." - Will Rogers

              by Lefty Coaster on Sat Dec 05, 2009 at 12:24:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I can't HR you for saying a whole group of (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL, Keith Moon

            people that they "suck" because they . Got anymore Gems of racist bullshit that you call wisdom for us.

            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:26:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I'm ok with it Volley (0+ / 0-)

        as I am discussing settler violence, and so is he.

  •  LOL Jon the Jews as Khazars (9+ / 0-)

    HAHAHAHAHA that is the myth that Stormfront and others have been promoting for years. And now Sand gets some historians to back his book and it's all Israeli myths all the time.....

    Here is someone who might support your claims under this headline:

    New York Times Reveals that European-Descended Jews are Counterfeits and have no Blood line to Abraham

    http://www.radioislam.org/...

    Or perhaps this:

    As a matter of fact, our alleged descent from the Khazars is the central theme of Arab propaganda," he added. "The Arabs claim most European Jews have no right to be in Israel in the first place because they are not descended from Biblical Hebrews, but from Tartar-Mongol nomad tribes, including the Khazars who were converted to Judaism en masse 1,000 years ago,"

    OPINION DIVIDED
    Scientific opinion in Israel is divided on the subject. No one argues the basic premise: that a group of 12,000 Jews, fleeing from persecution and wars in the Holy Land, in the wake of Byzantine and Moslem conquests, made the long overland trek to Persia, crossed the territory of today's Turkestan in Central Asia and found asylum in the Khazar Kingdom, which occupied a vast area between the Caspian Sea, Volga River, Ural Mountains, Black Sea and the Polish borderlands.

    In the year 965 the Khazars were defeated for the first time in 500 years, by Prince Sviatoslav of Kiev. King Bulan III of Khazaria concluded that Prince Sviatoslav emerged victorious from the war because his troops and mercenaries were Christians, while h i s nomads were pagan worshippers. The king and his nobles embraced Judaism in 965, and in 966 a royal edict was passed enforcing Judaism as the only legal religion in the Khazar Kingdom. Tribesmen had to undergo circumcision, learn Hebrew prayers and recognize Jewish rabbis as their spiritual leaders on pain of death.

    As other Jews who were persecuted in the Middle East, medieval Europe and Spain at that time, heard of the new Jewish-Khazar kingdom, rumors spread that the Messiah had arrived at long last. There were several consecutive migration waves to Khazaria, via Persia, Greece and Poland.

    Pollock believes the traditional Russian anti-Semitism probably stems from that epoch when Hebrew-speaking Khazar raiders attacked Russian villages, killed the men folk, abducted women, forcibly converted them to Judaism and married them in full-fledged religious ceremonies. This also would explain why so many European Jews are blond and blue-eyed, with a slight Mongol slant to their eyes, as well as the total absence of Semitic features among many Israelis of European descent.

    http://www.ihr.org/...

    Now we all know who the Institute for Historical Review are but if you don't they are a group dedicated to proving the Holocaust didn't happen.

    But hey they have a reference to a Jew that supports their work so in their minds: It must be true........

    All though that it really proves is that Jews can be fucking morons too. (I say this as a Jew btw).

    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:24:10 AM PST

    •  textbook example (4+ / 0-)

      of how the old antisemitic memes are being recast in "anti-Zionist" clothing, and people like Jon swallow it whole and then pound the table demanding more.

      Sand's field of study, wasn't it something like 20th century French literature? Doesn't matter. All that matters is that you can say, "look, even the Israelis admit they're really Khazars, just look at Sand."

      harps and angels! harps and angels!

      by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:29:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Volley (0+ / 0-)

      stop, right now, the stormfront and such references; I do not make them, and neither does Sand. If you would actually read the book, you would know that.

      My copy is at home, but at some point, I'll try and detail the evidence he presents. But stop the nazi-bating. Now.

      •  The Khazar Replacement bit (4+ / 0-)

        is a standard trope of antisemitic rhetoric. If you don't like defending the same theses David Duke and his ilk do, then maybe you shouldn't support the same theses David Duke and his ilk do.

        harps and angels! harps and angels!

        by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:39:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Tough Jon (7+ / 0-)

        Those are the guys who present the same exact theory and have for years. You want to roll in the mud - prepare to get dirty. Sand is a fool - his book is tripe and it goes against thousands of years of evidence.

        The IHR quotes another Jew - some Norm Pollack in Israel who says the same thing. And there are Jews who also say the Holocaust didn't happen. Do you give them creedance too? Of course you say you don't. BUT THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO PROPAGATE THIS THEORY......

        Do you not understand this Jon... Is there nowhere you will go to prove Jews shouldn't have a homeland in the Middle East?

        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:49:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, I can answer that one for you (6+ / 0-)

          Is there nowhere you will go to prove Jews shouldn't have a homeland in the Middle East?

          No.

          "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

          by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:53:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Try reading his book (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eiron

          and you will see how wrong you are.

          I make no argument deriving from any such racist material, and neither does Sand.

          more later,gotta run; but address the material presented, not whatever you can dig up to smear.

          As for your final question, I do have an answer, I need more time to address it; but just read the Haaretz interview, I think Sand makes relevant points to that issue. His whole point is against a racist discourse, and towards an inclusive, democratic one.

          What is so dangerous about Jews imagining that they belong to one people? Why is this bad?

          "In the Israeli discourse about roots there is a degree of perversion. This is an ethnocentric, biological, genetic discourse. But Israel has no existence as a Jewish state: If Israel does not develop and become an open, multicultural society we will have a Kosovo in the Galilee. The consciousness concerning the right to this place must be more flexible and varied, and if I have contributed with my book to the likelihood that I and my children will be able to live with the others here in this country in a more egalitarian situation - I will have done my bit.

          "We must begin to work hard to transform our place into an Israeli republic where ethnic origin, as well as faith, will not be relevant in the eyes of the law. Anyone who is acquainted with the young elites of the Israeli Arab community can see that they will not agree to live in a country that declares it is not theirs. If I were a Palestinian I would rebel against a state like that, but even as an Israeli I am rebelling against it."

      •  Oh, GOODY! More "Stormfront" references! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, jon the antizionist jew

        Never enough of that shit flying around in I/P diaries.  Perhaps the pretenses can soon be dropped and we can all start calling each other neo-Nazis and real Nazis again - just like in the Shitty Old Days.

        Joy!

        And for those of you who missed the point of that comment: (/snark).

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

        by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:47:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here you go from the Stormfront website (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL, MoshebenAvraham

          And here is a gem from that site:

          He would not live to see his Asiatic race of converts to Judaism, one day represent 90% of all the Jews on the planet, and call themselves Ashkenazi Jews, when in fact they were not Jews, but simply an Asiatic race of people who converted to the Jewish religion, whilst still continuing to speak the Khazarian language of Yiddish, totally different to the language of Hebrew.

          http://www.stormfront.org/...

          Shall I provide more references like this one for you.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:10:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here is another Jewish review of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bouwerie Boy

          this theory:

          It is one of the great ironies of the 21st century that anti-Zionists and anti-Semites on both the Left and the Right, have returned to racialist arguments against Jews that most of us thought had died out after World War II.

          One of the most bizarre aspects of this "re-racializing" of anti-Semitism is the role played by the Khazar myth.

          The newly fashionable Khazar mythology holds that modern day Ashkenazim, and especially the European leadership of the Zionist movement, are not Jews at all in the racial sense, but rather descendents from non-Jewish Khazars; therefore, the Khazar "theorists" claim, Zionists and Israelis have no legitimate claims to the Land of Israel.

          http://www.jewishpress.com/...

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:14:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Next, perhaps somebody could LINK us to it! (0+ / 0-)

        That would be an even BETTER idea!  Links to a hate site!  Nuthin' could be FINAH!!!

        Maybe some moron could sign us all up after that?

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

        by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:08:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You wanted proof (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Red Sox

          I provided proof. This hateful argument that Sand makes is exactly what has been propagated for years by those assholes.

          This whole thing is frakkin' offensive. What if I wrote a diary basically calling all Palestinians new comers to the land and how they don't have any claim because really they never existed.

          I would never do that but you would be screaming to high hell about it.

          Well Jon here, just did exactly that. Understand that is exactly what he did whether he says he did or not.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:14:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who the FUCK asked you for anything? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jon the antizionist jew

            Let alone "PROOF" of shit?

            Here is my comment, quoted IN ITS ENTIRETY for you:

            Oh, GOODY! More "Stormfront" references! (2+ / 0-)

            Never enough of that shit flying around in I/P diaries.  Perhaps the pretenses can soon be dropped and we can all start calling each other neo-Nazis and real Nazis again - just like in the Shitty Old Days.

            Joy!

            And for those of you who missed the point of that comment: (/snark).

            Celtic Merlin
            Carlinist

            No request for proof of DICK!  I "asked" you for NOTHING.  I wanted NOTHING you could possibly provide.  But, GREAT JOB linking our site to your buddies at that hate site.

            What's next - ya gonna tell me how my side lost WWII?  Why don't you just drop the pretenses and start REALLY calling people Nazis?  You're already halfway along.  Don't stop now, VB - close the deal!  DO IT!

            Respectfully,
            Celtic Merlin
            Carlinist

            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

            by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:13:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And don't bother replying. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jon the antizionist jew

              The questions were all rhetorical and I'm off to play chess.

              Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

              by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:14:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah that's it run the fuck off (0+ / 0-)

                after sticking your foot half way down your throat.

                You are no Nazi but you seem not have a problem with people using their meme to prove Jews don't belong in the M.E. What I mean by that is that I know you don't want to genocide anyone but in your heat to strike down the "dreaded Izrailees" you seem to be willing to say anything or make any accusation.

                I am not making an accusation but when you roll in the mud man don't complain when you get dirty.

                And my buddies at a hate site????? HAHAHA they would agree with you down the line here son. Not me.

                Must be nice defending that shit with the lies you are chucking around here.

                I want proof of your shit that I support settlers and their violence against Palestinians. Because that is far from what I said.

                Not Respectfully,
                Volleyboy1
                One Pissed off Jew

                Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:29:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Neither I nor Sand (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Celtic Merlin

                  nor anyone I am on good terms with feels that

                  Jews don't belong in the M.E

                  this is racist garbage you project on others; stop it, please.

                •  The reply you've been waiting for. (3+ / 0-)

                  I won the chess match.

                  Now, on with the show . . .

                  In your comment titled "Jon the Jews as Khazars" you quote AND LINK to two holocaust-denial sites and throw the spectre of Stormfront in there as well.  Comments with links to hate sites are, in my opinion, about as shitty as they come.  In my reply to a comment from JtaJ hinting that you stop the Stormfront references and other things of that nature, I complained the shit site Stormfront had been mentioned YET AGAIN in a discussion thread on I/P issues - something which happens FAR too often.  My complaint to JtaJ mentioned NOTHING about Sand, his book, his beliefs, his issue positions, or anything ABOUT Sand and/or his book.  Not a single word.  I COMPLAINED about the Stormfront references - I did nothing more.

                  But, what do YOU do?  You come flying back in a reply to me with not only quotes from that shitty hate site, but a LINK to it as well!  Ah, yes!  Can life get any better than when some dope puts a link to one of the word's most infamous hate websites on my favorite on-line destination?  Oh, certainly not! (/snark - in case you couldn't tell)

                  Instead of bitching you out about it, I dropped YET ANOTHER HINT of how inappropriate it is to refer to and quote and link Stormfront on this website.  Again, I don't come within even a lightyear's distance of anything even related to Sand and/or his book and/or his beliefs.  Nope, not a single word.  All I wanted was for you to stop with the Stormfront references, quotations, and links.  I asked you for no proof of anything.  I defended nothing about Sand as I have no clue what the man believes, I've never read anything he has written, I've never even heard of the guy.  Frankly, I could not care any less about this Sand person than I do right now.  All I wanted was for the Stormfront bullshit to stop.

                  Your reply?  Your Comment Subject was "You wanted proof".  Have you confused me with some other user who has been asking you for proof of something?  Do you ever READ the comments to which you are replying?  PLEASE quote anything I have ever typed which asks for proof of anything related to this cockeyed "Khazar" subject of which I know nothing and have never heard of before today or proof of anything about this Sand fellow.  A single sentence is all I ask.  Copy it, paste it, blockquote it, bold it, do whatever you want with it, but FIND IT AND SHOW IT TO ME.  You will search in vain for all I've ever tried to do is get you to stop referring to, quoting, and linking what seems to be your favorite new website, "Stormfront".

                  But you go on in this comment to tell me about Sand and his "hateful argument".  You tell me all about how I'd "be screaming to high hell" about some diary you won't write.  A diary about a subject of which I know nothing.  And then you tell me that Jon did something offensive to you.  Well, I'm certainly very sorry that Jon did that.  If apologizing for his offensiveness will get you to STOP referring to, quoting from, and linking to Stormfront, then sharpen up yer eyesight and read this: "I am most heartfully sorry that Jon did/said/typed/presented something which you found to be offensive."  I had nothing to do with it.  I did not assist him in the preparation or presentation of his diary.  I couldn't affirm/support/dispute/refute anything that this Sand guy has ever done, said, or written since I don't have any fucking idea who the asshole is.  You got that yet, VB?

                  And I don't WANT to know who Sand is.  I don't CARE who Sand is.  I don't give a bag of busted assholes about anything he has written or who has said what about him.  So don't tell me about the guy.  I have no interest.  What I am really interested in is getting you to stop referring to, quoting from, and linking shitty hate sites to this website.  Why does that seem to be so very far beyond your capabilities to understand?

                  So you type some crap you made up on the spot about me wanting proof of something that I don't know or care about.  And yes, that chunk of crap comment which started with some weirdo lie about me wanting proof of something finally got me to respond directly to you, though I've declined to do so for weeks.

                  And I've declined to reply to anything you type because I don't want to associate with you any more, VB.  You've transformed yourself into "VB the Pissed off Jew".  You channel Karmafish like no other.  You attack, attack, attack.  You couch your accusations of people being antisemites and Nazis in cute little references to "Stormfronters" and tell people that their side lost WWII because you don't dare actually CALL people Nazis for you fear the penalty for that transgression.  You've become the newest version of oldskooldem, gatordiet, Moonie, and Ambrose.  You attack people so much that I don't know who the Hell you are anymore.  You used to impress me as a reasonable man who wanted to help move the discussion of these issues along into the realm of intelligent discourse.  Somebody who wanted to help search for an equitable solution to the problems in that part of the world in a sane way.  Now, you're one of the ugliest people in these discussions and I'll have no truck with what you've made yourself into.  I believe that what I'm seeing now is the VB you've been trying to hide under a veneer of reasonability which has finally split and fallen away.  You pay good lip service to peace and peaceful solutions, yet you practice nothing on here lately which resembles that belief.

                  You finally get me to respond to you directly and you had to resort to getting me to lose my temper in order to do so.  And I did lose my temper.  And I don't like that.  And I don't really like you much any more.  And I typed some shit that I don't like, but there it is.

                  Your reply to that - so lovely and so very untrue.  You claim that I seem to have no problem with people using Nazi memes to prove something stupid about Jews.  How?  Where?  Are you talking about Sand again?  I know nothing about Sand.  I know nothing about this meme to which you refer.  I have no "heat to strike down the 'dreaded Izrailees'" for I have stated many times here and to you personally that I want a safe and secure Israel to exist as a necessary haven for persecuted Jews everywhere.  I've been very clear on that and it is a position from which I shall never waver.  Yet, in your "VB the Pissed off Jew" form, I'm supposed to be willing to "say anything or make any accusation" in order to destroy Israel.  Or something like that.

                  I'm rolling in no mud.  I'm not the one who refers to, quotes from, or links to hate sites.  And this statement bears some mention: "Must be nice defending that shit with the lies you are chucking around here."  From the context it is in, that statement seems to be accusing me of defending that Stormfront shit?  Again with the "Stormfront-Khazar" thing?  I'll ask somebody  who really IS a reasonable person to fill me in on what that is - someday.  When I have any interest whatsoever in stupidity of that caliber.  Which is likely never.

                  And then there's this: "I want proof of your shit that I support settlers and their violence against Palestinians."  I stated CLEARLY that you advocated for additional harm to come to the original knife-attacker.  I don't recall stating that I believed you to support all violence against Palestinians everywhere.  If I did, I was certainly mistaken.  However, if you or anybody else here doesn't agree that you advocated for additional harm to come to the original attacker - possibly even his death - it is you who are mistaken.

                  Please allow me to refer you to this exchange which begins with my comment ADMONISHING Ptah the Great for a comment he made which seemed to advocate for violence over land theft.  A few comments down, you state clearly that concerning the use of a very expensive Mercedes-Benz sedan to take vengeance on the original attacker who is lying helpless on the ground, disarmed, shot, bleeding, and under guard of several IDF soldiers with fully-automatic assault weapons loaded with military, full-metal-jacketed combat rounds (for no military uses any other kind), "I proudly justify it".  I'd call that supporting colonist violence against a Palestinian.  And THAT is all that I ever accused you personally of concerning any Palestinian.

                  And here are the several other examples of you advocating for additional violence and/or Mob Rule in attacking that stabby asshole with a car and/or additional bullets: "Kill the guy", "deserves to be run over" since being shot just wasn't enough, I guess... "Too bad he wasn't shot 3 times", Because shooting "them" isn't enough...

                  You already said that you are, but I could never be "proud" of a series of comments like that.

                  Celtic Merlin
                  Carlinist

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 03:50:52 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  You play chess? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, Celtic Merlin

                I am staunch fan of the game myself. Just started getting back into serious tournament chess.

                So, what if I told you a firms objective is to maximize profit subject to an output constraint with a quasi-concave production function?

                by MoshebenAvraham on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 09:50:05 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I just LOVE the game, Moshe. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MoshebenAvraham

                  I learned to play some 40+ years ago.  I'm a rank amateur, but I do so love to play the game.

                  I have a standing date with a fellow to meet at a diner (real antique, that diner) once a week for a light meal, some good conversation, and a game of chess.  We've inspired a couple of others to buy travel sets and play their friends at the same diner.  Even the one waitress likes to watch the games.

                  Chess(dot)com is a good site.  The DKos Chess Tournament used that site for many of the matches.  The overall winner was the DKos user, "MakeChessNotWar" - who happens to be a master or grandmaster, hence I never had a chance.

                  The closest I've ever come to being ranked is having a roommate in college who was actually ranked and was a member of the Carnegie-Mellon Chess Team.  Not the Club, the TEAM!  LOL!  He used to kick my butt every time.

                  Nice to meet another "Chesser".  e4, I always say!

                  Celtic Merlin
                  Carlinist

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 06:23:42 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I am about 1951 (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Celtic Merlin

                    but I think I can be stronger than that with some more serious practice. I have played lots and lots of chess for a time before college. I have a state and national title and several great memories. I hope to play in the Chicago Open this year with a friend of mine. I use redhotpawn to play online chess for free. I played in a few tournaments around Milwaukee and won some money. I even got to see a GM play.

                    So, what if I told you a firms objective is to maximize profit subject to an output constraint with a quasi-concave production function?

                    by MoshebenAvraham on Sat Dec 05, 2009 at 03:22:05 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Have you considered (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1

              What goofball you look like when you post these kind of excrement? When you pepper your posts with contrived outrage, pointless bolding, and ALL CAPS, you come off like some weird old guy who spends half his internet time with his drawers around his ankles.

              "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

              by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 07:22:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Here is a very brief summary (0+ / 0-)

      of Sand's veiw on the Khazars; And note, his book goes into quite an extensive analysis of the historical records & sources, Arabic sources,and many others.

      Sand argues that the most crucial demographic addition to the Jewish population of the world came in the wake of the conversion of the kingdom of Khazaria - a huge empire that arose in the Middle Ages on the steppes along the Volga River, which at its height ruled over an area that stretched from the Georgia of today to Kiev. In the eighth century, the kings of the Khazars adopted the Jewish religion and made Hebrew the written language of the kingdom. From the 10th century the kingdom weakened; in the 13th century is was utterly defeated by Mongol invaders, and the fate of its Jewish inhabitants remains unclear.
      Sand revives the hypothesis, which was already suggested by historians in the 19th and 20th centuries, according to which the Judaized Khazars constituted the main origins of the Jewish communities in Eastern Europe.

      "At the beginning of the 20th century there is a tremendous concentration of Jews in Eastern Europe - three million Jews in Poland alone," he says. "The Zionist historiography claims that their origins are in the earlier Jewish community in Germany, but they do not succeed in explaining how a small number of Jews who came from Mainz and Worms could have founded the Yiddish people of Eastern Europe. The Jews of Eastern Europe are a mixture of Khazars and Slavs who were pushed eastward."

      'The Jews' are many, many peoples, from North Africa to Khazaria, India, to Ethiopia; why is it so controversial to point this out, that the Jewish religion has converted and absorbed so many other peoples over the years?

      Here's why

      Why do you think the idea of the Khazar origins is so threatening?

      "It is clear that the fear is of an undermining of the historic right to the land. The revelation that the Jews are not from Judea would ostensibly knock the legitimacy for our being here out from under us. Since the beginning of the period of decolonization, settlers have no longer been able to say simply: 'We came, we won and now we are here' the way the Americans, the whites in South Africa and the Australians said. There is a very deep fear that doubt will be cast on our right to exist."

      Is there no justification for this fear?

      "No. I don't think that the historical myth of the exile and the wanderings is the source of the legitimization for me being here, and therefore I don't mind believing that I am Khazar in my origins. I am not afraid of the undermining of our existence, because I think that the character of the State of Israel undermines it in a much more serious way. What would constitute the basis for our existence here is not mythological historical right, but rather would be for us to start to establish an open society here of all Israeli citizens."

      •  He's playing you for a fool, jon (6+ / 0-)

        why are you trying so hard to be a fool for him?

        Nobody doubts that there were Khazars or that there is probably some Khazar in the genetic mix of Ashkenazi Jews. But Sand is arguing not "some" but "most." And there he and science part ways.

        By now, experts who specialize in the subject have repeatedly rejected the theory, concluding that the shards of evidence are inconclusive or misleading, said Michael Terry, the chief librarian of the Jewish division of the New York Public Library. Dr. Ostrer said the genetics also did not support the Khazar theory.

        But it's catnip for antisemites, and it's catnip for anti-Zionists. And, oddly enough, for pretty much exactly the same reason.

        harps and angels! harps and angels!

        by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:01:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ok here is this (6+ / 0-)

        Sand revives the hypothesis, which was already suggested by historians in the 19th and 20th centuries, according to which the Judaized Khazars constituted the main origins of the Jewish communities in Eastern Europe.

        Which historians Jon... From what I have seen - lots of anti-semitic ones made those points.

        Thanks for posting what Sand wrote he is a joke with a capital "J". Really. Those facts he talks about Yiddish.... First of all Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. Second, Jews were not only spread around by the Romans they were scattered by the various Christian and Pagan empires not to mention the Islamic empire at times. So yes you will see symboligy everywhere they were taken as slaves.

        You just want to prove so badly that we (and I do not include you in this) do not deserve a homeland in the Middle East that you will cite anyone who will back you up. But your failure is that in doing that you align yourself with some pretty bad characters and at best you don't care.

        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:02:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, jon is an individual that harassed (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Red Sox, Captain C, volleyboy1, Gatordiet

          Holocaust survivors, so do you expect anything less?

        •  read.his.book. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Alec82

          -his book lists the sources and historians; I think a separate diary will be needed to get through the hysteria, in due time.

          -the material about Yiddish is from Paul Wexler, another Israeli academic, and seems very tenable to me

          -Judaism has certianly been a converting religion, at many times in its history; there has been proof of this for awhile, and it is no controversy

          I align myself with most of Sand's arguments, not the other stuff you always run to that I have nothing to do with.

          So I have an idea; you actually read his book, and who knows, we could actually meet up and discuss it; sound like a plan?

        •  The book is not what you think, Volley (3+ / 0-)

          I'd encourage you to read it.  It isn't even really anti-Zionist.  

          •  It is a very pro Zionist essay (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jon the antizionist jew, Alec82

            in the best sense.  

            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:56:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  how is that Eiron (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Bouwerie Boy, canadian gal

              On what planet is this a Pro Zionist essay?

              Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:13:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sand's book (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Alec82

                not this diary.  

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:16:02 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Certainly a far cry from anti-Zionism (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza

                "The ideal project for solving the century-long conflict and sustaining the closely woven existence of Jews and Arabs would be the creation of a democratic binational state between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.  To ask the Jewish Israeli people, after such a long and bloody conflict, and in view of the tragedy experienced by many of its immigrant founders in the twentieth century, to become overnight a minority in its own state may not be the smartest thing to do.  But if it is senseless to expect the Jewish Israelis to dismantle their own state, the least that can be demanded of them is to stop reserving it for themselves as a polity that segregates, excludes, and discriminates against a large number of its citizens, whom it views as undesirable aliens."

                Shlomo Sand, The Invention of the Jewish People, pp. 311-12, English edition 2009.  

                •  ROFL (0+ / 0-)

                  That is just a pathetic little passage in a book talking about the Invention of Jewish People.

                  The ideal project for solving the century-long conflict and sustaining the closely woven existence of Jews and Arabs would be the creation of a democratic binational state between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.

                  THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF ANTI-ZIONISM ALEC.... come on man.... It kind of blows your argument up completely.

                  Here is the definition of Zionism:

                  Zionism is the national revival movement of the Jewish people. It holds that the Jews have the right to self-determination in their own national home, and the right to develop their national culture. Historically, Zionism strove to create a legally recognized national home for the Jews in their historical homeland. This goal was implemented by the creation of the State of Israel. Today, Zionism supports the existence of the state of Israel and helps to inspire a revival of Jewish national life, culture and language.

                  http://www.zionism-israel.com/...

                  Nothing about a bi-national state... nothing about shared land... It is about Jewish self-determination in their NATIONAL HOME.

                  Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                  by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:41:17 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And Sand is saying (0+ / 0-)

                    perhaps, that there is more to being a Jew than land.  

                    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                    by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:42:41 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  The ideal, not what he promotes in the book (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jon the antizionist jew

                    I see that you decided to ignore the rest of the passage I provided you.

                    As far as I can recall he does not wish to absorb the OT into Israel; he proposes instead the building of an Israeli national identity, one that provides cultural autonomy for ethnic and religious minorities within the otherwise Jewish state of Israel.  

                    •  Sigh..... (0+ / 0-)

                      Just Sigh..... for someone who is so sensitive to others pains you sure could give a flying fuck about Jews. Thanks buddy.

                      Go to Israel, live there for a bit, then repeat these comments.

                      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                      by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:33:58 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  ? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        capelza, jon the antizionist jew

                        I'm discussing the contents of a book that appeared on the bestseller list in Israel for nineteen weeks, that you have written off as equivalent to antisemitic hate literature.  I am telling you what Sand, who is an Israeli, proposes in the book itself.

                        And as for the suggestion, no thanks.  

                        •  Sand could be head of Aish (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Keith Moon, zemblan

                          Ha Torah for all I care - he is repeating a dangerous mythology.

                          Here:

                          After the exile by the Romans, the Jewish people migrated to Europe and North Africa. In the Diaspora (scattered outside of the Land of Israel), they established rich cultural and economic lives, and contributed greatly to the societies where they lived.

                          http://www.science.co.il/...

                          It does talk about an exile of a large group to the Galilee as well btw... but many, many Jews where tossed about the empire.

                          The Neturi Karta are Jews but they support Mahmoud Ahmadinejhad and his stand on Isarel. What's your point? Jews do foolish things - there are Jew's who question the holocaust. It doesn't mean anything.

                          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:12:38 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Again, read the book (0+ / 0-)

                            he goes into great detail on how such lineage-based understandings of Jewish communities are not true. Historical sources show clearly that many if not most Jews were not uprooted from I/P by the Romans, and that large communities were created in Europe, NA and elsewhere by conversion, among other things.

                          •  Hey, so does the link (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bouwerie Boy, Red Sox

                            from stormfront that I showed Merlin. Amazing pieces of scholarship there - considering those theories were in play way before Sand wrote his book.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:12:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  drop the stormfront godwin crap (0+ / 0-)

                            I will not even bother looking at it, it is a pathetic waste of time, as opposed to Sand's book, which is actual scholarship.

                          •  Based on the SAME (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bouwerie Boy, Red Sox

                            assertions. Of course you won't read it because you don't want to acknowledge that this book and that crap is just rehashing of a tired anti-semitic myth. AND it does so much to help you in your argument against Jewish ties to the land. See you do way better when you argue for a simple democracy. But when you try to prove it using Sands poor excuse of rehashed, proven wrong mythology. Israel Bartal says it better than I can.

                            Israel Bartal, dean of the humanities faculty of the Hebrew University, in a commentary published in Haaretz,[9] writes that Sand's basic thesis and statements about Jewish historiography are "baseless". Bartal answers to "Sand's arguments (...) that no historian of the Jewish national movement has ever really believed that the origins of the Jews are ethnically and biologically "pure" [and that] Sand applies marginal positions to the entire body of Jewish historiography and, in doing so, denies the existence of the central positions in Jewish historical scholarship." Bartal refers to Sand's overall treatment of Jewish sources as "embarrassing and humiliating." He adds that "The kind of political intervention Sand is talking about, namely, a deliberate program designed to make Israelis forget the true biological origins of the Jews of Poland and Russia or a directive for the promotion of the story of the Jews' exile from their homeland is pure fantasy." Bartel summarizes his critique of Sand's characterization of Jewish historiography as follows: "as far as I can discern, the book contains not even one idea that has not been presented earlier in their books and articles by what he insists on defining as "authorized historians" suspected of "concealing historical truth,"" and calls the overall work "bizarre and incoherent."[9]

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:56:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They most certainly are NOT (0+ / 0-)

                            based on the SAME assertions; you have not even read the book dude!

                            And do you agree that

                            no historian of the Jewish national movement has ever really believed that the origins of the Jews are ethnically and biologically "pure"

                            because it seems that that is what you are trying to argue, correct? That modern Jews are derived from ancient Israelites, that there was no conversion or proselytizing? (of course there was and no populations are 'pure' in any sense)

                        •  Here you go Alec (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Captain C, canadian gal

                          From the NY Times Review (definitely Right Wing lol)

                          Professor Sand, a scholar of modern France, not Jewish history, candidly states his aim is to undercut the Jews’ claims to the land of Israel by demonstrating that they do not constitute "a people," with a shared racial or biological past. The book has been extravagantly denounced and praised, often on the basis of whether or not the reader agrees with his politics.

                          and

                          Since Professor Sand’s mission is to discredit Jews’ historical claims to the territory, he is keen to show that their ancestry lines do not lead back to ancient Palestine. He resurrects a theory first raised by 19th-century historians, that the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe, to whom 90 percent of American Jews trace their roots, are descended from the Khazars, a Turkic people who apparently converted to Judaism and created an empire in the Caucasus in the eighth century. This idea has long intrigued writers and historians. In 1976, Arthur Koestler wrote "The Thirteenth Tribe" in the hopes it would combat anti-Semitism; if contemporary Jews were descended from the Khazars, he argued, they could not be held responsible for Jesus’ Crucifixion.

                          By now, experts who specialize in the subject have repeatedly rejected the theory, concluding that the shards of evidence are inconclusive or misleading, said Michael Terry, the chief librarian of the Jewish division of the New York Public Library. Dr. Ostrer said the genetics also did not support the Khazar theory

                          http://www.nytimes.com/...

                          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:43:31 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  You're going to run out of dodges (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Alec82

                        pretty soon; the go live there meme is an old,tired one.

                        read the Israeli book, which was an Israeli bestseller, which deals with Israeli identity & history. Then discuss it like an adult, k?

          •  No no I don't need to read that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thebluecrayon

            Jews are an invented people. This is not right.

            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:13:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  There's an interesting discussio to be had about (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eiron, volleyboy1

    imagined communities, the way nationhood and history and identity inter-relate, etc.  Nowhere is this more fascinating than Israel and the Middle East.

    Unfortunately, this won't launch that discussion at all.

    Among the many things to object to here:  The autolaunch of that video.

  •  Turns out the driver (4+ / 0-)

    was the husband of one of the two women Jon's hero stabbed.

    Knifeman run over by enraged victim

    A PALESTINIAN who was shot after stabbing two Israelis in the West Bank last week was run over time and again by the enraged husband of one of the stabbing victims, footage aired today showed.

    The footage, aired on Israel's commercial Channel 2, shows a grey Mercedes-Benz driving through a crowd and running over the body of the wounded Palestinian who had been shot by an Israeli soldier minutes earlier.

    The car is then seen driving back and running over the body, only to move forward and reverse over the man again, before being stopped by a policeman.
    (Agence France-Presse)

    If that animal tried to stab my wife, he wouldn't be enjoying free Israeli health care as the stabber is right now, because he'd be fertilizer.

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

    by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:32:25 AM PST

  •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bouwerie Boy

    Yes, Jewish public consciousness continues to be formed by the idea that Jews were exiled from Israel by the Romans, whereas the truth is that close to two million Jews continued to live here until the fall of the Roman empire. Yes, a large portion of the Roman Empire Jews became Jewish by conversion, and hence most Jews today are unlikely to be descendants of Jews who lived here two thousand years ago. But, as Sand repeatedly points out, none of this is disputed by historians.

    So, the Jews weren't exiled from Israel by the Romans yet most of those continuing to live there were converts.  What became of the original Jews?  

    Oh, there you are, Perry. -Phineas -SLB-

    by boran2 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:32:32 AM PST

    •  Apparently they are an "invented people" (7+ / 0-)

      according to this latest garbage... They really had no tie to the land. They Jews we know now were not scattered by the Romans despite all of the historical evidence, texts, pictures, oral histories, and so forth. Apparently they converted the people of the Steppes.... Or so this bullshit fairy tale goes.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:53:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The slightly comical thing about this (9+ / 0-)

        is that there are plenty of hardcore Zionists who say that the Palestinians are an invented people. That kinda shit would get HR'd here, and rightfully so. But if we're talking about the Jews, then that's OK.

        "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

        by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:54:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is exactly what (3+ / 0-)

          I said to unspeakable above....

          It is completely and totally bullshit. Or your point if a settler tosses a rock at someone Jon and Co. write a diary. But when someone on their side STABS not one but two people... they are fine with it and decry the victims for getting back at them.

          It is just great. Just great.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:29:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, I'm more than fine with it. (3+ / 0-)

            As soon as I heard, I rubbed my magic lamp and summoned my genie, Khwshkhrrrr bin Shshmmkhsssssh, and him conjure a party for me. I then hopped on my magic carpet and flew around the neighborhood showering the people and houses with confetti in celebration of the violence.

            This diary got 4 uprates and 3 recs. Not one of them from any pro-P regulars. So quit with the broad brush, OK?

            Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

            by unspeakable on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:43:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I doubt you have a magic carpet... (0+ / 0-)
            •  Look at the responders here (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Keith Moon

              I mean come on man.... from some moron like cassandra I expect idiocy but from people of good conscience like yourself... this should stand your hair on end with how bad it is.

              Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:48:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Even cassandra said this diary was bad. (4+ / 0-)

                I agree with soy that this diary should be deleted, and I'm asking you to explain to me why what jon is saying is offensive. What more do you want?

                Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

                by unspeakable on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:10:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ok... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Bouwerie Boy, zemblan, Captain C

                  First off I don't think this diary should be deleted. I think it should be very prominently displayed.

                  It is offensive on a number of levels.

                  The first is the headline about how brutal this one guy who stabbed two people was dealt with. Now, here is a guy who walked into a petrol station and stabbed two people. He was shot by a soldier and then run over by one of the victims spouses. What does Jon have to say about this:

                  Just horrible, I really am without words.

                  But as much as we point to the violence of the settlers, that dosen't get the not so silent majority off the hook;

                  Hey let's blame the victims - shall we?

                  Ok but even more so.. and Jon PULLED THIS PIECE OF SHIT AND DELETED IT saying:

                  This diary has been updated; material pertaining to Shlomo Sand has been removed,and will be presented later, in itsown diary. My apologies for rushing this, as there is much to talk about. That said, I would appreciate it if the discussion of Sand halts for now, to resume in its own diary.

                  jon

                  Sands' theories posit that the Modern Jews are "invented people" that really were Khazars originated on the Russian Steppe. This theory has been primarily advanced by people that think the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" are legitimate.

                  I presented an article of others who propagate this theory like the Institute for Historical Review. It is in the comments above.

                  To draw an equivalence for you: It is about as offensive as when Zionists say there were no Palestinian People and that you all moved there to take advantage of economic conditions.

                  So sorry I am heated but... Once upon a time I had a bit of a violent incident with a skin head who was saying some not nice things about Jews. My baseball skills came in handy and to this day I do not regret that. I have a real issues with anti-semitism and the idiocy that surrounds it. Sand maybe Jewish but his advocacy of this puts him in my book in the same place as those scumbags in the Neturi Karta - may they burn for eternity (if we believed in that)

                  Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                  by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:25:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  All modern nationalities/nation states (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alec82

        are inventions; they are 'imagined communities' as B Anderson coined, and the Zionist movement is no different (although each nation/nationality has its specifics, of course).

        You're wrong of course; Sand points out how even early Jewish Zionist historians were aware that the Romans did not exile all the Jews after the 70-74 AD uprising (or the later Bar-Kochba one). Most Jews remained, and large communities in Europe and N Africa grew as a result of conversion.

        Your overwhelming focus on the Khazars betrays your own bias. The Jews of Eastern Europe were but one Jewish cultural/religuous group; there were/are Jewish communities spread around the world, ones that had nothing to do with the Khazars. The point is that the Zionist (and essentially racial-based) veiw of Jews deriving from Judea robs Judiasm of its diversity and complexity. Why are European Jews any more 'Jewish' than, for example, the Jews of Baghdad or Iran?

        Sand is very precise in his assesment of this diversity, it really behooves you to read his book before making such silly statements.

        •  ROFL (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bouwerie Boy, Captain C, canadian gal

          Most credible historians - Zionist and other all report that the Romans scattered the majority of communities after the Bar Kochba revolt. There were still communities that remained but the Romans scattered Jews as slaves where they did not go converting as they went but went as slaves and servants to the dominant culture.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:39:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Now now Volley, let's not (6+ / 0-)

            confuse the issue with facts. This is after all a Daily Kos IP diary.

          •  nope (0+ / 0-)

            Sand goes through the sources very well, and you're not correct. The majority were not exiled, they remained there, and most likely later converted. Also, try writing a little slower, your sentence  about slaves and such is a bit off.

            If you just read the book, you'll see;

            Inventing the Diaspora

            "After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom" - thus states the preamble to the Israeli Declaration of Independence. This is also the quotation that opens the third chapter of Sand's book, entitled "The Invention of the Diaspora." Sand argues that the Jewish people's exile from its land never happened.

            "The supreme paradigm of exile was needed in order to construct a long-range memory in which an imagined and exiled nation-race was posited as the direct continuation of 'the people of the Bible' that preceded it," Sand explains. Under the influence of other historians who have dealt with the same issue in recent years, he argues that the exile of the Jewish people is originally a Christian myth that depicted that event as divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel.

            "I started looking in research studies about the exile from the land - a constitutive event in Jewish history, almost like the Holocaust. But to my astonishment I discovered that it has no literature. The reason is that no one exiled the people of the country. The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th century. From this, in effect, the whole book was born: in the realization that Judaic society was not dispersed and was not exiled."

            •  No Jon actually (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Red Sox, zemblan, Captain C

              They stripped the Jews completely. They renamed the land - stripped Jerusalem of it's name and scattered the Jews throughout the empire.

              Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:22:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  In Chapter Four of the (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zemblan, Captain C, volleyboy1

                The Protocols of the Learned Elders of JTAJ, we learn that Aelia Capitolina was just a term of endearment for J'lem.

                "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:28:53 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think that means (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Red Sox, Captain C

                  "City of Love for Jews" - right?

                  Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                  by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:45:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  enough with the protocols (0+ / 0-)

                  that is just pathetic and anti-intellectual.

                  •  So is the Khazer's = Real Jews (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Bouwerie Boy, Red Sox

                    argument.

                    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:06:06 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's not the argument (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Eiron

                      I mean seriously, get a grip! First,

                      there is no such thing as 'real Jews' anyway.

                      the Khazar discussion is part of a larger discussion, of Jewish communities throughout the world, and their origin in a variety of means and manners; emigration, subjugation, conversion, prostletizing, (no sp check, sorry!), political intrigue, etc. Sand and many others have been pointing out for some time that the Zionist historiography robs Judaism of its rich and diverse cultural heritage. An Arab Iraqi Jew is no less or more 'real' that an Indian Marathi Jew or a Yiddish speaking Jew from Poland.

                      You are speaking in the romatic ethno-nationalist discourse, one which constructs mythological beginnings to peoples and the lands that they have the right to claim (from 'others' of course). We are all people, ultimately from the same source, and no one is more 'real' than any other.

                      All you need to do is read the book, its pretty clear.

                      •  Jon is right Kossacks. Repeat after me... (5+ / 0-)

                        there is no such thing as real Jews, read the book, there is no such thing as real Jews, soilent green is gefilte, there is no such thing as real Jews, Woody Allen is a Khazar, there is no such thing as real Jews...

                        •  ROFL read the links I just posted to Merlin (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Bouwerie Boy, canadian gal

                          regarding the Khazar myth and it's propagation.

                          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                          by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:15:56 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  not. (0+ / 0-)

                            to repeat:

                            there is no such thing as 'real Jews' anyway.

                            I mean what does that actually mean? Are we to rank Jews, and if so, according to what? Religious observance? Political affiliation? Language? diet? what is it?

                            I'd say that it is an idea from Zionism, that the European shtetl Jew was the 'old' Jew and the Israeli sabra is the 'new' Jew, basically a internalization of antisemitic classifications and attitudes.

                            the Khazar discussion is part of a larger discussion, of Jewish communities throughout the world, and their origin in a variety of means and manners; emigration, subjugation, conversion, prostletizing, (no sp check, sorry!), political intrigue, etc. Sand and many others have been pointing out for some time that the Zionist historiography robs Judaism of its rich and diverse cultural heritage. An Arab Iraqi Jew is no less or more 'real' that an Indian Marathi Jew or a Yiddish speaking Jew from Poland.

                            You are speaking in the romatic ethno-nationalist discourse, one which constructs mythological beginnings to peoples and the lands that they have the right to claim (from 'others' of course). We are all people, ultimately from the same source, and no one is more 'real' than any other.

                            All you need to do is read the book, its pretty clear.

              •  No, they did not (0+ / 0-)

                he goes over it in detail in the book, that Jewish historians, Zionist ones even, acknowledged that as fact. I'll look it up tonight if I get the chance, but them's the facts.

              •  The historical evidence (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jon the antizionist jew

                really doesn't support that.   There wasn't a great dispersion of peoples.   The fact is that all the Jewish factions were killing each other, and worse, Romans, they put a stop to it.  

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:21:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  They went to Galilee (2+ / 0-)

          I got to your diary late, jon, and I know you are going to write about Sand's book later, but I wanted to make just a few points.  Even without reading Sand's book, some information about diaspora Judaism has been widely known.  

          1.  Jews were exiled from JERUSALEM after the Bar Kochba revolt.  A large community of exiles settled a few miles outside of Jerusalem in the Galilee region, which was known for centuries as a center of Jewish scholarship.  This exile continued to be enforced during the Roman Empire, but Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem (and some chose to do so) after it was conquered by Saladin.
          1.  Jewish communities existed throughout the Roman Empire before the time of Christ.  Some of the first places that Jewish Christians tried to proselytize were in existing Synagogues in the diaspora.  Some Jews were as eager to spread their religious beliefs as Christians were and they proselytized throughout the Roman Empire before rules were passed to punish them for doing so -- so it is perfectly conceivable that many of the Jewish communities in the diaspora had a good percentage of converts.

          "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

          by Rusty Pipes on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:03:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hummus bi Tahina (6+ / 0-)

    Following up on yesterday's conversation

    (Middle Eastern chickpea and sesame dip)

    Hummus is popular appetizer, or meze, throughout the Middle East. Serve with grilled or toasted pita bread cut into wedges. Or use as a sandwich or wrap spread.

    4 to 6 servings

       * Chickpeas, cooked and drained -- 2 cups
       * Tahini (sesame paste) -- 1/4 to 1/2 cup
       * Lemon juice -- 1/4 cup
       * Garlic, crushed -- 2-4 cloves
       * Salt - 1/2 teaspoon
       * Water -- as needed
       * Olive oil -- 1/4 cup
       * Parsley minced -- 1-2 tablespoons

    Method

      1. Place the chickpeas, tahini, lemon juice, garlic and salt into a food processor or blender and process until very smooth. Add water as needed to achieve a soft, spreadable consistency. Adjust seasoning with lemon juice and salt to taste.
      2. Mound the hummus in a serving bowl and drizzle the olive oil over the top. Sprinkle with parsley and serve.

    Variations

       * In Egypt 1-2 teaspoons of ground cumin are usually added.
       * Sprinkle with paprika for added color.

    The picture that accompanied this recipe will seem familiar to a few here:

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

    by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:43:28 AM PST

  •  I guess (7+ / 0-)

    we were all supposed to just look at the footage, take it at face value, go GOLLY THOSE ISRAELIS ARE BAD PEOPLE ARENT THEY MAUDE LOOK THEY JUST LET HIM RUN OVER THAT GUY and then let you slip the "Khazar" bit in as well.

    Don't think, folks! Emote! Boo and hiss! Shake your fists! Throw popcorn! Don't try to find out what actually happened!

    Another winner from Jon the imaJewandthatmeanseverythingIsayaboutJewsistotallytruesothere.

    harps and angels! harps and angels!

    by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:46:54 AM PST

    •  This is inaccurate (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Keith Moon, sorenScostanza

      Jon the imaJewandthatmeanseverythingIsayaboutJewsistotallytruesothere.

      He's not actually Jewish.

      "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

      by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:50:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  okay (6+ / 0-)

        make that "imightnotknowאfromבbutwillstillclaimsomemoraladvantagefrombeingJewish"

        harps and angels! harps and angels!

        by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 10:55:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well, that's not entirely fair (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sofia, canadian gal

        There have been many Jews, especially of the Communist persuasion, who were also atheists.

        •  Actually, 50% of Israeli Jews today (0+ / 0-)

          consider themselves ethnically Jewish but religiously secular - and 25% outright self-identify as "atheist".

          In the US, 37% of Jews consider themselves Jews by ethnicity only, self-identifying as "None" in the AIRS 2008 report (the current issued reports don't break the Jewish population up by atheists, agnostics, deists and theists, so we won't know how many of those 37% are outright atheists, until ARIS releases the full dataset sometime next year).

          Between Israel and the US, that makes up the overwhelming majority of the world's Jewish population.

          Few if any of those are Communists.

          Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

          by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:29:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL. Well, there have been a whole bunch of Jews (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sofia

            who existed prior to "today" who were Communists, Socialists, Anarchists, etc. Many of these folks were also atheists. Got any stats handy for 1913?

            •  There were Communists of all ethnicities (0+ / 0-)

              and Socialists and Anarchists, too?

              Why the obsession with equating Jewish atheists with Communists?

              Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

              by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:48:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hardly an obsession. Simply pointing out that (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sofia, canadian gal

                there legitimate reasons why a Jew can also be an atheist. See the above comment thread.

                •  "legitimate reasons" (0+ / 0-)

                  you mean, like, not believing in God?

                  Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                  by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:10:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Duh! Right. Something most, if not all, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sofia

                    Communists have in common.

                    •  And many, many, many non-communists (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      capelza

                      Jews - or anyone else - doesn't need Communism as a "legitimate reason" to be an atheist.

                      You claim not to be obsessed, but your continued insistence on linking Jews, atheists and Communists suggests otherwise.

                      And, given the McCarthy-era history of that association, is more than a little offensive at this point. My father lived through the blackballing era.

                      Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                      by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:52:02 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  My goodness, are you really that completely (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sofia, zemblan, volleyboy1

                        unaware of the connection of the Jewish people to these movements??? Have you ever heard of Abraham Cahan and the Jewish Daily Forward? Emma Goldman maybe? How about Meyer London? There is nothing at all offensive in remembering this history. Now, I repeat, I only brought this up top make a point about how JTAZJ could be Jewish and an atheist. I am not obsessed about this issue. Not sure I can say the same about you however. That is my last word on this issue.

                        •  Again, you commit a logical fallacy (0+ / 0-)

                          I only brought this up top make a point about how JTAZJ could be Jewish and an atheist.

                          As if it were necessary to be a Communist, to be Jewish and an atheist.

                          It is a McCarthyite backhanded way of calling someone a Communist. "that's how they can be Jewish and an atheist"

                          That's bullshit.

                          Historically, much of the American Left was Communist, in the early bright-eyed days before the horrors of State Communism became known. When Stalin was part of the Western alliance against Nazism, everyone was a fucking Communist.

                          Jews were never more than a tiny minority in this country - much fewer before the Holocaust than after - and they were never more than a tiny minority of Communists - so to keep focusing on the Jewish-Communist connection is to deliberately skew perceptions.

                          It is a classic inductive fallacy.

                          "Many Jews are atheists"
                          "Many Communists are atheists"
                          "Therefore, Jewish atheists are Communists".

                          Worse, you state it as a "justification" for atheism, as if anyone, let alone Jews, need a "justification" for being atheists.

                          Your comment promotes bigotry not only against Jews, but against atheists as well.

                          It's like saying,

                          "Most Evangelicals are Christians"
                          "Most Evangelicals are Right-wingers"
                          "Therefore, Christians are Right-wingers" - or, in your version, "Christians have a justification for being Right-wingers - they are Evangelicals".

                          Both statements are logically fallacious.

                          Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                          by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:08:38 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Most idiots believe in a magic sky fairy, yup. (0+ / 0-)

                      What's the connection to communism?

                      Perhaps communists are smarter than the median? Is that it? I could see that...

        •  yes... (0+ / 0-)

          but if i am understanding jon's viewpoint correctly and his advocacy of sand's work, jon believes that judaism is only a religion rather than a culture or ethnicity. thus...?

          "I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:03:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  This diary should be called: (0+ / 0-)

    Gruesome Palestinian Violence and an Israeli Settler's Response

  •  Could Sand's be the most laughable "argument"... (6+ / 0-)

    ...in the arsenal of anti-Zionists everywhere?

    Not only does it fly in the face of genetic and historical evidence; not only does it ape Joan Peters's (admittedly successful) "the Palestinians aren't who they say they are" line in From Time Immemorial; not only does it embrace a "theory" propounded by a novelist and perpetuated almost exclusively by white supremacist groups; not only does it attempt to repackage the old, condescending "Jews are a religion, not a people" argument - but can anyone even pretend that every line of Sand's book wasn't guided by, and working backwards from the desire to "change the political situation" to an arrangement that the vast majority of Israeli Jews believe (and that history suggests) will endanger their lives and liberty?

    Admire the guy's politics if you want, but don't call it scholarship.

  •  Can any anyone tell me (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes, capelza, Conure

    What Israeli civilians were doing in an area under military occupation?  

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:17:27 AM PST

    •  Why don't you go ask these civilians (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1, Gatordiet

      After they've recovered from their stab wounds, of course.

      "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

      by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:20:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  A horrible crime (0+ / 0-)

        if accounts are correct.   But what are civilians doing in a war zone?   Were they aid workers?  

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:28:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Eiron never misses an opportunity... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Red Sox

        to change the subject when violence is committed against a jew.

        •  The subject is the victims of violence, nu? (0+ / 0-)

          What were the victims doing in a conflict zone under military rule?  Not a reasonable question?  Perhaps, but not a change of subject.

          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

          by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 11:53:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And when Ilan Halimi was murdered in France, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Red Sox

            was he also in a conflict zone under military rule?  No...but that didn't stop you from trying to hijack a diary about his murder.

            •  Are you comparing (0+ / 0-)

              Halimi to to the guy who got run over in the West Bank??  If so, that's some kind of sick.  If not, You lost me, I don't get your point.  

              Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

              by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:48:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Is this your response to everything? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, Celtic Merlin

              "But Mommmm, Joey did it TOO!"

              Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

              by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:50:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, its in response to Eiron's habit (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Red Sox, volleyboy1, canadian gal

                of defending or changing the subject whenever something bad happens to someone jewish.

                see: http://www.dailykos.com/...

                •  That's rich (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza

                  given that your response to any discussion about Israeli misdeeds is to point elsewhere at some other misdeed, and to ask if the commenter talked about that misdeed, too.

                  Perhaps you should examine your own habits. two, three or seven wrongs don't make a right.

                  But three Lefts do make a Right.

                  Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                  by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:53:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And aren't you doing the same exact thing here? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    canadian gal

                    Pointing out my misdeeds to cover up Eiron's?

                    •  No (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      capelza

                      I'm not "covering up anything". I'm pointing out the logical fallacy in your arguments. I haven't defended anything by saying, "oh, never mind that - look, shiny!"

                      Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                      by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:30:01 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  But you are... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1, canadian gal

                        you are defending Eiron by pointing out the flaws in my argument.  In other words you are saying "don't worry about Eiron...look at what Gatordiet is doing."

                        If that wasn't your point, then why respond to my criticism of Eiron in the first place?

                        •  Because your criticism is based on a fallacy (0+ / 0-)

                          as all your comments to date on this thread are.

                          They are all of the variety that either dismisses a wrong by saying that others do wrong as well, or seeks to discredit the messenger by accusing them of not commenting on other wrongs.

                          Neither critique addresses the substance of the message.

                          Your argument is logically fallacious - completely independent of who you direct it towards, or what argument you are avoiding addressing.

                          Pointing out your flaws is not a defense of anyone else, any more than pointing out Palestinian flaws is a defense of Israeli flaws.

                          You simply fail to understand the basic illogic - and amorality - of your argument.

                          The Nizkor project, a site dedicated to scholarship and commentary related to the Holocaust, current neo-Nazi activities, and critical thinking about history and current affairs (Nizkor means "we will remember" in Hebrew), is an excellent resource for learning about logical fallacies - they have an entire section of their website dedicated to them:

                          http://www.nizkor.org/...

                          They've been online for more than 15 years, BTW.

                          Here's a quote from their objectives page:

                          The way to combat noxious ideas is with other ideas.
                          The way to combat falsehoods is with truth.

                          Justice William O. Douglas
                          1958 interview with Mike Wallace

                          Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                          by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:58:38 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  My blind cat (0+ / 0-)

                          could point out the flaws in your "argument", in fact you don't have an argument.  Just smear and spew and sputtering.  Nice face of the defenders of the cause, a few more like you and we should just hang it up.

                          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                          by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:18:32 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  BTW, you just did it again (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      capelza

                      instead of responding directly to the assertion about your fallacious argument, you try to minimize it by saying, "but Mommm, he's doing it too!"

                      You need to work yourself out of that one-track rut.

                      Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -- Douglas Adams

                      by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:30:56 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Where does it say (0+ / 0-)

          that any of the victims were Jewish?      Or the faith of any of the parties?  

          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

          by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:32:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Jon the terribletrackrecord Jew (0+ / 0-)

            wouldn't have bothered otherwise, and you know it. Hell, you saw how he buried the lede on this one.

            harps and angels! harps and angels!

            by zemblan on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:57:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't think Jon (3+ / 0-)

              is anti-Jewish, just anti-zionist and anti-occupation.  I am zionist and anti-occupation.  

              Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

              by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:20:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It makes sense that in this of all diaries... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zemblan, volleyboy1, canadian gal

                I am zionist

                ...you would repeat this one.

                "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:22:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am a proud zionist (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jon the antizionist jew

                  why do you ask?

                  Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                  by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:43:42 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1

                    why do you ask?

                    I didn't ask.

                    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." - George Carlin

                    by Red Sox on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:50:00 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Just curious (0+ / 0-)

                    but how do you identify with Zionism, with its roots & current embeding in European colonization? I mean, I could see an Israli nationality becoming more accepting & inclusive (like Sand discusses) but political Zionism seems too much a part of the racist edifice of colonialism.

                    thanks for your open mind and suppport, kind rushed into this diary, oops!

                    •  Yeah, it wasn't your best diary (2+ / 0-)

                      Sands and lurid settler violence-I see the connection, but it is too jarring for some, I guess.  

                      Why am I a zionist?  Or, if you will permit me to rephrase the question, what kind of zionist am I?  

                      I believe the Jewish people do, in fact, have a legitimate claim, both morally and as importantly through International law, to reside unmolested in palestine.

                      I also believe that Jews are cool, 5000 years of continuity of tradition, knowledge learned by trial and error how to live as a community, within a larger community of 'others".  The idea of embodying that wisdom in an operating  modern democratic state invites some interesting speculation on how democracy can be tinkered with, and perhaps improved.  The "light unto Nations".   The Jews have a tradition of scholarship in law and justice.    

                      I support the language and intent of UNGA 181, and cheer the determination and courage the early Israeli's fought to preserve their foothold in that land.

                      So, I consider myself a Zionist because I support a secure, prosperous, autonomous state of Israel in Palestine.  

                      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                      by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 03:47:00 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  But not a Jewish state necessarily (0+ / 0-)

                        and that is part of Zionism.

                        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:17:28 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  yes it is, (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          callmecassandra, soysauce

                          and that is a problem. As of now, 1.5 million citizens of Israel live in and belong to a state that rejects them, and it is silly to think that they should. So how should Israel, as a democracy, deal with this? Widen its inclusiveness, incorporate others into its poliitcs, become a state of its citizens? Or narrow its focus, remain a state of the tribe, for the tribe and with power and privilege for the tribe over the 'others', who can be oppressed, ejected and dispossessed as usual?

                          That's the choice, and you have placed Zionism right where it belongs, which is why I reject it as a political ideology.

                          •  to be clear (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, soysauce

                            when I say " it is silly to think that they should" I mean that it is decieving oneself to think that Palestinian citizens of Israel can continue living in a state that rejects them without trying to incorporate their identity into that state/identity. Of course, with the marriage laws and banning of Nakba day, etc, you can see Israel's response to such initiatives.

                          •  No what I think Israel (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Eiron, Captain C

                            should do is:

                            Negotiate a fair settlement with the Palestinians for a two State solution based around agreements at Taba. The 1.5 Million Non-Jews who live in Israel should be given full equal rights (they have that for the most part but do face discrimmination and defacto second class citizenship -- like African Americans here) and responsibilities (IDF service and what not).

                            You say that 1.5 million non-Jews don't have inclusion in the political system but the Arab parties and membership in the Knesset betrays that claim.

                            I don't reject Israel as a political ideology because I see it as something totally different than you do.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:36:33 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Incorrect (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soysauce

                            Palestinian citizens of Israel suffer from de jure discrimmination, not just de facto. Many laws distinguish between Jew and non-Jew, and many other quasi-govt orgs like the JNF go much further.

                            And I know full well they can vote and there are P-I MKs; the difference is I actually read what they say and what their parties stand for. Israel has refused to allow them more than token participation, and certainly not as a national community, a Palestinian Arab community within Israel. If the state of Israel continues to deny and reject this, irrespective of the OT which is to some degree separate, then there will be problems.

                            This is not about how I 'see' Israel differently; Israel is a state guided by Zionist ideology, which is separatist and exclusive. It is a state not of its citizens, but a state of the Jewish people globally. This is the root of the problem, and it is there that the ultimate change must occur.

                          •  Jon it is the State of Jewish (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Captain C

                            people globally. That is why it was created and that is what it should remain.... Sorry you don't like it but just think because of Sands, now you aren't Jewish - you are Khazar. I think you should argue against discrimmination on the Russian Steppe since appartently you believe THAT is your homeland.......

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:00:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dude (2+ / 0-)

                            there is no rule that sez that victims can not also be victimizers.  Or that victimization excuses victimizing

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:04:52 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My homeland? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soysauce

                            I have made no claim to a homeland, sir, nor do I care to. The idea of a homeland of one's 'people' is a concept derived from European ethno-nationalism, and I have no need of it, personally.

                            You really just don't get it. I know that is what Israel is, and I think that is part of, if not the root of the problem. The project of Zionism, to carve out a territory in Palestine, predominately non-Jewish at the time, for a European Jewish population (and later, global Jewish) inherently conflicted with the indigenous people, and why wouldn't it?

                            Who knows, there may be a Khazar somewhere in the past generations of my family, or maybe not. Like most people, my family is difficult to trace after a few generations, and even harder after a few more centuries. And more importantly, I would not use said ancestry, even if I could prove it, to claim power or privilege, by the Volga, the Jordan, or wherever; hence Asimov's "Who knows? Who cares?"

                          •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

                            for what it matters

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:05:33 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It isn't up to the International community (2+ / 0-)

                            to offer guarantees that that Israel shall forever have a Jewish majority.   I can't think of a precedent in law or practice.

                            However, Jewish values, principles make a pretty good foundation for a viable, pluralistic state.

                            But the trend seems otherwise

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:37:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't know what a "Jewish State" means (2+ / 0-)

                          a democratic state established with a constitution based on Jewish Judicial principles?  
                          And enfranchisement and equality of  all human persons residing in that state?

                          I am all for it.  

                          What I am not for, is "If you ain't a Jew, you are second class" , don't aspire to anything, you can't get there from here because your folks worship at the wrong place.   That's a recipe for catastrophe.  

                          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                          by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:34:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No very specifically (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Captain C

                            Israel is a Jewish State, run by Jews based on Jewish law and custom - it's holidays are Jewish, it's flag is Jewish - it is the Jewish homeland. However, because of that that - it has an obligation to treat non-Jews fairly and whit justice.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:38:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "Run by Jews" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jon the antizionist jew

                            I would hope that the country would be "run" by those best able to make a state based on both Jewish traditions of law and justice, and modern conceptions of democratic theory.  

                            How is that working out?

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:42:01 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  States are States (2+ / 0-)

                            people are Jewish.  

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:43:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are no Zionist (0+ / 0-)

                            sorry not one Zionist Movement from Liberal to Right Wing would claim you

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:58:00 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Some may disagree (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jon the antizionist jew

                            but I respect your opinion as honestly and sincerely expressed.

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:02:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I appreciate that. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Captain C

                            Honestly man - I think you need to be more forthright about this. I have no doubt that you believe the Jews should be able to live in Palestine, but that is not Zionism. Zionism is Jewish Nationalism.

                            That's all I am saying. Look I respect nathan who is very much not on my side but he is honest about his rejection of Israel. I respect unspeakable because he at least knows what he is up against and is not afraid to express that viewpoint. If you were not a Zionist I don't care as long as you don't want to kill me or take away my identity (Shlomo Sand). That's all.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:19:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I completely (4+ / 0-)

                            and happily stayed away from this diary.

                            What makes you think I reject Israel? I'm not a Zionist, and I'm no fan of Israeli policies, but what does it mean to "reject" a country? My view on Israel is that it has to re-constitute itself as a state of equal rights, much like South Africa had to do. It would be more accurate to say I reject Israeli laws and policies.

                          •  Fair enough (0+ / 0-)

                            See that is why I respect you - you are honest in your beliefs even if we don't agree.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:33:17 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And I disagree with Nathan (3+ / 0-)

                            I just don't think that "one state" is feasible today, but I accept that I may be wrong.  . I support the current formulation of two sovereign states.  
                            I could be wrong and am willing to listen to counter-arguments  The Non Jewish and Jewish residents of the future state of Israel have a tough road ahead.  And they will have my support as long as positive progress is being made.  

                            And by the way, if a book, or the presence or absence of territorial sovereignty over a patch of land threatens your identity.  Well.  Think about it

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:44:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  even if (6+ / 0-)

                            a two state settlement is achieved, Israel will still have to reconstitute itself as a state of equal rights. That is the inevitable path it has to take. One state is what we have today; the question is whether two states is feasible, and I think not. So, we have one state, and lots of non-citizens of that state.

                          •  Nathan, I agree (4+ / 0-)

                            I have been struggling with the linkage between rights for the displaced and disenfranchised Arabs dwelling within the pre 1967 lines and those refugees,
                            and the West Bank and Gaza.  
                            Sovereignty for some or Justice for all?  As an American, my view, is defuse the current conflict, and then encourage rights for the Israeli Arabs.

                            I might be wrong.

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:54:38 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the real (6+ / 0-)

                            question to ask is whether or not the two state solution can fairly address the status of the refugees. The Israeli approach has been to dismiss them offhand, or to perfunctorily offer "compensation" (whatever this means). But this is the central question; will a Palestinian state in the West Bank be able to absorb most or all the refugees who want to return? If not, then the two state solution is a non-starter. No credible Palestinian leadership, and no sustainable peace, will sell out the refugees like that. So if people here are really interested in discussing solutions, I would suggest paying a lot more attention to the question of refugees.

                          •  Wait a minute. (3+ / 0-)

                            run by Jews based on Jewish law and custom

                            Because that reads as though you don't believe Israeli Palestinians have a right to be president or prime minister of Israel. Further, unless "Jewish law and custom" has a different, non-religious meaning, you're saying that Israel should not be secular but expressly religious Jewish.

                            I doubt that's what you mean but could you explain what you mean exactly?

                            Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

                            by unspeakable on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:30:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't mean that (0+ / 0-)

                            if a Palestinian won a Presidential or Ministerial election of course they should serve. What I mean is that basically Israel should be the homeland of the Jewish people with laws based on Jewish Law but updated to the 21st century. With rights for all of it's citizens, and with it's customs based in Jewish customs.

                            But... I also believe it should be a democracy so basically if a Palestinian Israeli ran for office and was elected by the majority I think they should completely be allowed to serve as President or Prime Minister as long as they respect the laws of the Land - which if they were running for that office and got elected by a majority of Jews I would think they would certainly do.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:38:05 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So, (3+ / 0-)

                            you don't want a secular Israel, then?

                            You can't support the application of Jewish religious law, even if it's a "modern" interpretation, as the law of the state and still say you want the state to be secular.

                            Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

                            by unspeakable on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:40:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  To a degree I do and to a degree I don't (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Captain C

                            I want a secular Israel with a majority of Jews in it. Makes sense... Not really..... but, that is what I want. I want what Ben-Gurion, Eban and the Halutzim wanted. I want a Jewish Homeland.

                            I guess one thing that I realize in these past few days is that I am as bad as A.B. Yehoshua. Given the comments that have come from your side... I realize that my committment is still to Israel and the Shalom Achshav method but now given the racism I feel I am hearing (not from you but most others) that it is the right thing to do to end the occupation for our souls. It is the right thing to do to treat the Palestinians with respect and to reach out our hand in friendship. But if they don't want my friendship then.....in that case I just have to do the right thing.

                            Sorry man but I have to support the right alternative and an alternative you would want but according to you for all the wrong reasons.

                            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 06:48:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah, I've done better ones (0+ / 0-)

                        but thanks for the ideas here. And now my take.

                        I feel that everyone should be able to live anywhere. Ideally, of course, and this does not always translate well into reality. Judaism began in Palestine, but the 5000 year timeline is not quite correct; the Old Test. is a creation anywhere from Josiah's time to the pre-Roman Hasmonean era, and even then we are talking about huge differences from later stages of Judaism/Jewish people. I mean, Hinduism traces its beginnings to the Vedas, but what that was who those people were as compared to the eras of the Upanishads & the Gita, etc, well, that's another imagined community...

                        but I digress. The problem is, UN resolutions aside, the Zionist movement grew from the substrate of European colonialism and anti-semitism, and has failed to overcom either; Israel may be able to, but at the expense of Zionism (as SAfrican overcame apartheid).

                        I recently watched the film Defamation, and there is a scene where the director interveiws his mother. She spits up all this hateful stereotypical crap about Jews, who the real jews are that in the exile Jews cheat people for money, but here we are real jews and work for things, etc. The director says "mom, this is what the anti-semite says," and he is right; Zionism was a response to Antisemitism. The anti semite said to Jews that they were not 'real' french or german or whatnot citizens (as opposed to the 'pure ones'), and the zionist said, yes; we are not french or german, we need to be a 'new jew' and have our own country. Hence her stereotypes.

                        I thought quite some time on this over the years, but in the end, Zionism is just too rooted in such narrow ethno-nationalist claims, and it is not possible for such an enclave to continue to exist in Palestine without using violence to maintain its existance. Like Afrikaners, French colons and white Euro-American settlers before they must live with the people they have subjgated, or find a new place to gate themselves off in; problem is, Israel is pretty much the last remaining actively colonizing European settler state, with the US and Europe as its current 'mother' country (where more and more are fleeing to).

                        •  I think to be a Jew (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          jon the antizionist jew

                          is to be something better than a "response to anti-semitism", or a victim of prejudice, or that identity and faith are irretrievable and inextricably tied to a patch of desert.   As if, one can't be a fully a Jew unless there is a polity in a specific place.  

                          Were Jews uncompleted while the Ottomans controlled the homeland?  Less than real Jews?  That might be insulting to some.

                          The spectre of colonialism emerges when it confronts the posture of the indigenous folks.  Both the resident Jews who persevered through the centuries and the Arab locals were horrified by the influx of Euro culture, too fast, and too extreme.

                          I hope they will work it out.  And end the occupation, it is a bridge too far.  

                          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                          by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:59:54 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Of course you are a zionist... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                volleyboy1

                I'm guessing you were also once the king of spain.

          •  You know Kiryat Arba is a Jewish (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Red Sox

            community and you know that this person was a settler. Pretty much makes deduction a snap. Really Eiron do you need to go with this.

            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 02:50:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is it 100% Jewish? (0+ / 0-)

              do you have to prove that before you can buy a lot or hang out in a petrol station?  ?  How is that done exactly, real estate wise?  On a HUD-1?

              There are no christians, hindus, maronites, druze, bedu, animists  in that place?  Really, 100% Jewish?  How is that accomplished?  Redlining?

              One might argue that there is a probability, but not a certainty, that the dude that ran over the guy was Jewish, but why be so quick to assume?  

              It is the narrative

              Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

              by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:14:25 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  ROFLMAO (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Red Sox

                This is a bad road to go down Eiron. See Red Sox' copy of the newspaper article.

                Honestly man.... let this one go.

                Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 04:18:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  where does the article state what religion (0+ / 0-)

                  the principles professed?

                  Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                  by Eiron on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:00:56 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sigh.... (0+ / 0-)

                    please stop.

                    According to The Jerusalem Post, police believe the driver was David Mizrachi, an Israeli from the illegal settlement of Kiryat Arba and the husband of one of the alleged stabbing victims. He may stand trial for attempted murder, the newspaper reported.

                    http://www.maannews.net/...

                    David Mizrahi now that is not a Jewish name and a settler in Kiryat Arab which is a Jewish settlement.

                    Why are you doing this Eiron? Why? Just fucking admit this?

                    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:08:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Colonizing land not their own. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jon the antizionist jew

      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

      by Celtic Merlin on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 05:39:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I saw this on the Guardian yesterday.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    capelza, Eiron, unspeakable

    Before praying that nobody on here would diary it, for obvious reasons.

    Ah well.

  •  What an awful diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    The diarist is a stain on this community.

  •  "If nothing changes, Jerusalem will burn" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jon the antizionist jew

    I'm offering the following commentary, not as endorsement of this diary, but because I was considering putting it into diary form myself.  I think it is more appropriate as a comment here.

    Once, a couple of years ago, I wandered into one of these kneejerk polarity-fests innocently enough.  I haven't been back since.  Makes the rest of dkos look open-minded.  But I happened to be sent the following in an email today, so I thought I'd share it.  I'm an innocent here, in that I don't know the personalities and I am woefully uneducated about the details of what is happening.  But I can spot injustice when it is glaring enough.  Sorry folks, I'm sure there are some intelligent, well-informed sensitive kossacks here, but I can't help but interpret any reactions to this as more propaganda than education.  So, I offer this for what it's worth.

    It is 1:30 am, and I just came back from Sheikh Jarakh- I see Jerusalem in flames, and know than my words will not succeed in conveying the horror of what I saw or the dread in my heart.

    Today the court ruled in favor of the settlers who had taken over part of yet another family's home in Sheikh Jarakh.
    snip

    Nasser Ghawi is closing in on his fourth month in a pitiful lean to across the street from where 6 settler families lived in his home, with a constant stream of visitors in and out.
    snip

    The most terrifying indication that we were at the brink of conflagration was that the police were did not wade violently into the Palestinians or arrest people for having the wrong look on their faces, as so often happens in Sheikh Jarakh. I even saw one of the officers trying to clear the way for settlers to come in and out snarl at one of the settlers and tell him that he dare not touch anybody. In other situations I would have been pleasantly surprised, but here this was an indication that the police also knew that they were sitting on top of a volcano about to blow.
    snip

    Although his worst predictions that their actions would cause the inhabitants of the land to rise up and destroy them never came true, our ancestor Jacob cursed his sons Simeon and Levi until his dying day for their violent and brutal act of revenge in this week's Torah portion, Their weapons are tools of lawlessness. Let not my person be included in their council,, Let not my being be counted in their assembly. For when angry they slay men, and when pleased they maim oxen."(Genesis)
    snip

    As I wrote a week and a half ago, I see a Palestinian anger burning so strong that, unlike what usually happens, neither the threat of arrest or the use of overwhelming force is a deterrent.

    - Rabbi Ascherman

    Against certain backdrops, debates about Romans and ethnic identity strike this outsider as clueless and heartless.  This is about the injustice of today much less than history and legal rights.

    We would better spend our energy creating a non-corrupt U.S. government to partner with the Afghanis.

    by geomoo on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 07:57:27 PM PST

    •  But the injustices of today (0+ / 0-)

      are rooted in and excused by such ideas, no? And thanks for sharing the piece, saw it on fb recently. Al Quds is being torn apart, its horrible.

      •  Yes, you are right. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jon the antizionist jew

        I stand corrected there.  There's just some kind of forest for the trees things going on, I guess.  Not sure how to say what bothers me.  It's just that when suffering is so visible and obvious, the nitpicking seems indulgent.  Still, I acknowledge keeping my distance and really being poorly informed on this.

        We would better spend our energy creating a non-corrupt U.S. government to partner with the Afghanis.

        by geomoo on Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 08:58:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hear you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          geomoo

          its not easy, not at all. If you're interested, pick up Joe Sacco's graphic novel Palestine, as well as his upcoming graphic novel Eyeless in Gaza, well worth the read.

          "I have no emotional obligation to [a] nation-state which asks for my solidarity on racial grounds" E. Hobsbawm

          by jon the antizionist jew on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 08:44:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I don't get this diary jon (4+ / 0-)

    Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

    by simone daud on Fri Dec 04, 2009 at 02:27:53 AM PST

    •  I've said it already (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      capelza, callmecassandra, simone daud

      it's not my best, by far. It began as many have, taking a few seemingly disparate elements, a video, an article, etc etc, and weaving them together. Many times it worked, this time not, mainly due to the issues of violence in the video (go figure some folks justify running people over, while who exactly is justifying the stabbing? Not me) and the volatile nature of the Sand material (with people who have not read him).

      Given the choice of deleting the diary or editing it, I chose to edit it, go with settler-related material only, and deal. As far as I'm concerned, there is some very interesting discussion in the threads (and worthless crap) and I see no reason to delete it. And it seems MB has finally recognized Ambrose's new guise, which can't be a bad thing, right?

      Next one will be better, I promise.

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