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Dropping Obama at the slightest sign of trouble

I really don't understand how some of you so called liberals/ progressives can sit there and give the Pres. the finger. I mean when is anything ever perfect coming out of Washington.

Has anyone thought that this part of a strategy for getting HRC passed now and making it stronger later. Our majority is razor thin as it is. I would rather have a calculated approach...hitting singles, rather than trying to go for the home run right of the bat.

I mean for God's sake it has taken 100 years to get any kind of HRC passed. There are a host of interests trying to submarine this thing and everything else Obama is trying to do.

Do YOU really want Obama to fail, to let the other PARTY gain ground just to make a point. I sure as hell don't. We have historic opportunities on several fronts. Lets not blow it up before we even get started. The best thing we can do is make DAMN sure that democrats are in the majority come the next election cycle. I AM PLEADING WITH YOU!!!

Think about the future not just the here and now.

one concerned independent white male

 

Originally posted to independent white male on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:30 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  You might want to don your (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader, pointman, scrivener76, nandssmith

    flameproof suit. Good luck.

  •  The overwhelmingly vast (5+ / 0-)

    majority of the people saying they won't vote for him are venting and will vote for him whe the chips are down.

    It's the people who don't pay close attention to politics that you should worry about.

    •  WRONG. He has been hopelessly compromised (5+ / 2-)

      and the stench of corruption is all over him. He sold out the American people on practically ever single issue and on the biggest domestic issue of modern times, in the most egregious possible manner. Imo, he will not survive the next election, and I say good riddance!

      •  You're right (4+ / 0-)

        I as SOOOOOO looking forward to the Palin administration. That should be just dandy for the country.

        Deep Thoughts by Michael Steele: " I'm the cow on the tracks"

        by pointman on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:55:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And then there are the very (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kpardue, pointman, ETF, Nick Zouroudis

        few absolute idiots like this one. But since they are too stupid to breathe we probably don't need to worry about them anyways.

      •  Go away troll. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pointman, lol chikinburd

        Your UID is too high for you to be that pissed off. Go express your faux umbrage elsewhere.

      •  Oh for God's sake, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kafkananda, ETF, Nick Zouroudis

        he's President of the Fucking United States, not Prime Minister of Sweden. The fact of the matter is the president has to play ball with Wall Street, with Big Healthcare and Big Pharma--these are multi-billion dollar entities that can absolutely destroy him and his party. Yeah, it fucking sucks, yeah it makes me angry as hell sometimes too, but that's the nature of the office and American politics.

        •  I don't think sports is a good metaphor (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bucadibeppo

          The fact of the matter is the president has to play ball with Wall Street, with Big Healthcare and Big Pharma--these are multi-billion dollar entities that can absolutely destroy him and his party.

          Either Obama's playing AGAINST the corporations or he's on their team.

          There's no compromise in sports. You go all to beat your opponent, or you do everything possible to help your team win.

          You don't pitch fast balls down the middle of the plate and hope Barry Bonds will feel sorry for you and strike out.

          •  Okay, not "play ball" (0+ / 0-)

            so much as "desperately try not to offend." I don't think Obama's on the corporation "team" but he knows that if he makes an enemy out of wall street, they will torpedo anything he's trying to get across--hence the pharma and insurance deals put in place before the healthcare debate even started. Long gone are the days of Teddy Roosevelt when the President can simply threaten to nationalize any industry that displeases him.

            •  So it's more like dancing then baseball (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lieblingskartoffel

              Okay, not "play ball" so much as "desperately try not to offend."

              I just wish the banks wouldn't let Obama "dip" him so many times.

              Long gone are the days of Teddy Roosevelt when the President can simply threaten to nationalize any industry that displeases him.

              Funny isn't it. The presidency is infinitely more powerful now than in Teddy Roosvelt's time. But Obama has so much less power to fight for the people than even an old war mongering jackass like TR.

              •  In terms of financial regulation, (0+ / 0-)

                environmental and domestic issues, TR was one of the best presidents we've ever had. He just had a really fucking stupid foreign policy.

                •  Well is it character or instituational constraint (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joynow

                  Was TR a better advocate for the people than Obama because he was a better man or because he had more freedom within the instituations to be an advocate for the people?

                  It seems to me that most liberal Democrats have at least made a show of bearing their teeth to the corporations then getting a bite or two in the ass to show they're not lapdogs.

                  Clinton was really the first not to. And I'll admit that Clinton was dealt a better hand in some ways (an improving economy). But he never had the control of Congress Obama did.

                  Is it possible that Obama will go down in history as having a conciliatory character that allowed him to waste a great opportunity, a historic presidential victory and control of both houses of congress?

                  Or will people just say "well I guess Hillary or Dean or even Kucinich would have acted the same way if any of them had actually been allowed to take the wheel?"

                  Who knows. But at this point, all I'm willing to do now is hope Obama gets lucky and we have another tech bubble or something. I dunno.

                  •  It's hard to say, (0+ / 0-)

                    but I know for a fact that certain progressive positions (re: single-payer) would not and are completely untenable at this point, barring some major disaster (i.e., a devasting world war, which did it for most European countries). I don't see how Clinton would've done anything different, and Dean would probably have crashed and burned by now...and Kucinich? Who the fuck knows? He's one strange little man. At any rate, it's pretty useless speculation. Obama's our president, and we're going to have to try to squeeze as many wins out of him as possible.

                    •  How do you know? (0+ / 0-)

                      certain progressive positions (re: single-payer) would not and are completely untenable at this point

                      We're assuming corporate America and its surrogates in congress are 900 pound guerillas.

                      But I think they were scared coming off the disaster of George W. Bush. I think they were willing to compromise.

                      Unfortunately we'll never know.

        •  While (0+ / 0-)

          I'm pretty tired of some of the constant O bashing comments, I think your comment is too much of an excuse for Obama. There needs to be a point where
          playing ball has to end. After this HC bill, Obama seriously needs to take up an issue that the left can rally around. That part of the party certainly deserves it at this point. A significant bone needs to be thrown to the base.

          Deep Thoughts by Michael Steele: " I'm the cow on the tracks"

          by pointman on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:25:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, I definitely agree. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joynow, pointman

            I'm just pointing out that a president doesn't necessarily have to be "corrupt" in order to kowtow to industry (though it certainly helps)--it just happens to be the reality of the position.

          •  like what issue? (0+ / 0-)

            Cap and trade is dead. Speaker Pelosi has promised no more tough votes for the Democratic caucus. I suspect that the President will seek to follow the model of Clinton and find some issues where he can reach common ground with the Republicans, like sanctions on Iran and perhaps some pro-growth business taxes. After the bruising healthcare battle, he'll want to unite the country, not look to pick a partisan fight. And that's not a bad thing.

            •  John Paul Stevens (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              moiv

              like what issue?

              Sotomayer for Souter, one bland moderate for another. Fine.

              I'd like to see him appoint a liberal, no, a flaming liberal to replace Stevens.

              But I suspect you're right. He's going to try to find "common ground" on the next court appointment.

              I wonder who Rick Warren is going to suggest?

            •  No more tough votes before Senate has a bill (0+ / 0-)

              on the issue is what she said... They go out on a limb for nothing with stalled or conservative senate.
              They already passed cap and trade, senate won't get to it for awhile I imagine.

              The focus has to be jobs, money flow to small business, mortgages, homelessness, vet issues...

              Banking/financial regulation would have been extremely popular with the chaos their greed has caused and anger over it. The public could be stirred to apply pressure...

              anyway that would have been good. It got little attention during the health care debate and fights. With attention let's hope Senate does real regulation. Odd hope but Dodd is really trying to clean up his image and there are some on Senate side calling for tough regs.

              Administration has been bad at this. Any lobbying they've done has been on wrong side of issue. Maybe the uproar over health care will shock Obama to his senses and he might try to lead in right direction.

              Obama deserves criticism, not because of bill we got but because of his lack of effort or push to get a better one. If he'd tried to pressure the conserva-dems at all towards public options that would after all save money and it just didn't work, well hey we take what we can get.
              But not trying to make it better, using pressure to stop the good things like re-importation of drugs, not showing liberal congress the respect he showed conservatives...
              Very sad, I really thought he'd come through in the end.
              How could he not try? Yes We Can, but we ain't going to is not the best campaign slogan though.

              Still I rec'd the diary because it didn't deserve the tr it got.

      •  Oh, bullshit. (0+ / 0-)

        Obama isn't corrupt.  His corporatism is sincere and his electoral bait and switch was no worse than most other political careerists, including the ones who might be standing in his place right now.

        Now, I will grant that the bait and switch was more vivid given his Message of Hope and Change®.  That may make him more skillful at his chosen profession, but it does not make him corrupt.

  •  right on (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kpardue, scrivener76, kafkananda, ETF, mod2lib

    some of these bloggers are just flat wrong, histrionic, and ignore the situation on the ground.  Have heart, i suspect their volume is greater than their numbers. i also suspect a lot of the whining is by republican trolls.

    You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    by TX Dem 50 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:38:05 PM PST

  •  Then Remove The Mandate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, bucadibeppo

    Afterall, you don't expect things to be perfect and you say it can be changed later plus this is a matter of subtraction (hitting singles) rather than addition (double, triple, etc).

    •  so they're unlikely to come back later (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bucadibeppo, RinaX, ETF

      and fix stuff.  but somehow, they're going to step right up to take on a second, better, HCR bill if this one fails?

      The problem with people who need to follow leaders is that they need to follow leaders.

      by Cedwyn on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:43:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There's a problem with that, though. (0+ / 0-)

      If you drop the mandate, then you're ignoring the fact that with the mandate there will be a large influx of young, healthier people now in the market, which could possibly control costs. It sucks because I'm fundamentally opposed to the idea of a mandate with no public option, but there is a hardship exemption in the bill, if you can't afford it, plus government subsidies as well as a major expansion of medicaid.

      The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. --Runaway Rose

      by caseyaaronsmith on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:48:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I want Obama to succeed (6+ / 0-)

    Do YOU really want Obama to fail

    I want him to succeed in:

    Closing Gitmo
    Repealing the Patriot Act
    Ending the Occupation of Iraq

    But I'd be more than satifisfied if he only tried. If he fought for the people and lost, I'd get behind him all the way. But unfortunately the Democrats seem to have identified "good" with "their being in power". So any amount of backtracking is OK as long as they're the ones doing it.

    The best thing we can do is make DAMN sure that democrats are in the majority come the next election cycle.

    They had HUGE majorities in the Senate and the House coming off of Obama's historic victory. Due to the nature of the two party system, that's the best it's going to get in this generation. But the goalposts have been moved to the point where neither party will ever get what the Democrats are saying they need (60 votes in the Senate).

  •  My dos centavos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ETF

    There seems to a lot of logic along the lines of: "Well, Bush got everything he wanted, so we're in power now, we should, too!"

    He was actually not faring well at all politically on the evening of Sept 10, 2001, and then ...

    So, let's take that into account when making (hindsight) comparisons.

    As for "fixing it later" - some of this stuff's going to have to be re-visited after next year elections, if Dems gain a couple of Senate seats. I'm highly skeptical folks can wait until 2014 for things to kick in - the system's too broke for that.

    •  Umm. (0+ / 0-)

      We aren't going to have a net win in the Senate next year.

      Deep Thoughts by Michael Steele: " I'm the cow on the tracks"

      by pointman on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:48:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pointman

        that it's impossible, but accept that's the consensus here, so won't dispute you.

        •  I guess anything (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis

          is possible, but history and the state of the economy make losses likely.

          Deep Thoughts by Michael Steele: " I'm the cow on the tracks"

          by pointman on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:56:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't let this defeatist talk take hold. (0+ / 0-)

            History is worthy of study and patterns reappear, but we are in relatively uncharted waters. There is so much that will happen that it's limiting, IMO, to adopt downer scenarios. There is much that is working in our favor right now but relatively unseen. New media, new demographics, etc.

            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothing new to say. If you please, don't back up the track, this train's got to run today.

            by kafkananda on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 08:34:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  They got Roberts and Alito (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slatsg, pointman, blueoasis, temptxan, ETF

      And the Democrats refused to fillibuster either.

      If Obama nominated anybody as far left as Alito is far right, the Republicans would fillibuster in a heartbeat.

      •  I have to admit (0+ / 0-)

        I do admire the Rethugs ability to stay unified. They pretty much fuck up everything they touch, but they stay together.

        Deep Thoughts by Michael Steele: " I'm the cow on the tracks"

        by pointman on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:52:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's more about class interests. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slatsg, pointman, blueoasis

          The Democrats are also remarkly unified when it comes to defending corporate interests.

          Admittedly, if Obama tried to govern for the people agianst the corporations he'd have a harder time then he's having now.

          But it's not impossible. Both Truman and JFK took on the steel industry. Johnson rammed civil rights through with half his party made up of segregationists. Even Clinton managed to balance the budget and bully the Israelis and Palestinians to the negotiating table.

          Let him try. That's all I ask. Just let him throw a few punches.

    •  No kidding (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kafkananda, newdem1960

      There seems to a lot of logic along the lines of: "Well, Bush got everything he wanted, so we're in power now, we should, too!"

      He was actually not faring well at all politically on the evening of Sept 10, 2001, and then ...

      If it hadn't been for Bin Laden Bush would have been a one-term president, whoever the Democratic candidate was in 2004 would have begun the necessary labor of starting to turn the ship of state away from the Republican course (and had a tough time but nowhere near the difficulties facing President Obama), and

      and

      * weeps softly *

      No wonder Bin Laden never got caught; the Bush administration owed waaaaaaaaaaay too much to him.

      Dude, your statistical average, which was already in the toilet, just took a plunge into the Earth's mantle. ~ iampunha

      by ETF on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:23:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I would never even *consider* abandoning Obama (3+ / 0-)

    at the ballot box because the alternatives are unspeakable.  But I will only donate to non-corporatist candidates for office.

    I will always vote for the better of two candidates.  But I will not punk for corporatists.

  •  It is NOT about 'making a point'..... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yalin, LeanneB

    by your logic, I guess it would be fair to say you are willing to throw women's freedom of choice under the bus just to get a win, then, no?

    'A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'

    by quinn on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:53:32 PM PST

  •  Not the best time for you to say this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pointman, blueoasis

    People have every right to be pissed and do a little venting.  There's only so much you can have shoved down your throat without the occasional purging.

    Grab all the joy you can. (exmearden, 8/30/09)

    by Land of Enchantment on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 05:54:12 PM PST

  •  I see you're using fear mongering (3+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, Yalin, DaveVentura
    Hidden by:
    kafkananda

    (Republicans are so much worse!) to try to garner our undying support of Obama. Right from the Karl Rove playbook. Good luck with that; Democrats are tired of being manipulated, used and stepped all over just to further another sleazy politician's political career.

    •  Another "sleazy politician's political (0+ / 0-)

      career"? The only politician mentioned in the diary is the Democratic President of the United States. HR'd unless you have some really nice info, thanks.

      That you have so little concern for the danger Republicans present is perhaps not so hard to understand.

      Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothing new to say. If you please, don't back up the track, this train's got to run today.

      by kafkananda on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 08:43:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  There's Never Existed a Voice For These People (0+ / 0-)

    when Democrats were in power. Nobody yet knows how to interpret how their complaining relates to masses of voters who don't blog.

    There are a few indicators however.

    One is that Obama and the Dems won (twice) because of an unusually high turnout of voters who normally are low turnout voters. That's because they were unusually motivated.

    One important question is whether the disappointment of the bloggers is a good indicator of whether the silent surge voters will be disappointed. It's especially important next year because Obama's not running, which should cut the turnout factor, and because the youth/minority surge voters are most prone to stay home ordinarily in a midterm year.

    But on the other hand, remember the beltway crowd says the blogosphere doesn't affect elections. So according to the experts, it doesn't matter whether we're abandoning ship. It's up to leadership to turn out those surge voters next year.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:00:16 PM PST

  •  a little more than "slightest sign of trouble" (7+ / 0-)

    this is an avalanche.

    a bad stimulus bill, a bad health care bill, more war, no ban on landmines... shit, the list goes on and on and on and...

    secession = treason. Haters are Traitors!

    by catchaz on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:07:30 PM PST

  •  Glad you think that women's (4+ / 0-)

    reproductive freedom is a casual "first sign of trouble."  Warms my heart to see how trivial you consider it to be.

  •  Do you have an argument as to why I should... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raboof, pointman, blueoasis, NancyK

    ... campaign for him?

    If it goes along the same lines as to why I should vote for him, then the campaign is lost before it even began, and you're just confirming my decision NOT to get involved with his reelection effort.

    The "lesser of two evils" approach WILL NOT work on swing voters. The vast majority of them voted for him in the first place, because they could see a clear and marked difference between the two parties after eight years of Bush.

    Those differences have largely faded, now that the rhetoric has been replaced with reality. There are still some key differences there, of course, and that's why he's got my vote (if not my time or money). But in the eyes of the sort of person who would register as an independent? Not much has changed in Washington.

    You folks have fun with the clipboards and the door knocking. My door might even be one of the ones you knock on. And I'm going to HOPE you come to me with something stronger than, "Oooga booga! REPUBLICANS!"

    Regards,
    Corporate Dog

    -----
    We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

    by Corporate Dog on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:13:27 PM PST

  •  He should fail (0+ / 0-)

    Obama sold the American people, especially progressives, a bill of goods. We got a bill of crap.

    dean for america, hope not fear

    by herooftime on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:34:50 PM PST

    •  I don't agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kafkananda

      We're seeing the fulfillment of Senator Kennedy's dream. He would have been so happy with this bill.

      •  "Senator Kennedy's Dream"? Bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moiv

        Senator Kennedy said that a public option was one of a few vital elements that must be part of ANY bill that thinks to label itself "health care reform".

        He also said that it should NEVER be funded by a tax on the middle-class.

        It's all right here, if you actually care to know something about Senator Kennedy's Dream:

        http://www.newsweek.com/...

        There's also something else he said in that article, which I feel some of you ought to take to heart, if you're going to speak for him:

        Incremental measures won't suffice anymore.

        Regards,
        Corporate Dog

        -----
        We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

        by Corporate Dog on Sun Dec 20, 2009 at 05:57:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  the Democrats are in the MAJORITY... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moiv

    ....NOW.  What makes you think anything different will get done if they have one in the future.  We are still in two wars.  EFCA is unheard of.  DADT is still alive and kicking, as in kicking out willing solders, bank reform is more than a sham it is a plain old giveaway, world leaders are ditching the president and negotiating against us in climate change, far to many of the Bush era toadies are still in the government even reappointed, no war crime or other trials, patriot act alive and well, all hail our overseers.

    I can go on and the only positive changes are on the margins and rely highly on enforcement which may or may not happen.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:37:26 PM PST

  •  I seriously wonder (0+ / 0-)

    whether you guys can distinguish between Obama and the Republicans?

    Jeez, he's going to raise the profit margin for insurance companies by 100%, torture anyone who looks Arab, and make a maximum MPG standard.

    In politics, especially in Washington, what seems to be the smallest changes make the biggest differences. And Obama is, in the span of history, a wave of change. Swallow it, accept it, don't let the MSM make you believe otherwise. And when you do, you will campaign for him wholeheartedly.

    Don't bring Heaven to Earth, bring Earth to Heaven.

    by canadianpuppet on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:42:16 PM PST

  •  How come you have a right to be independent (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    delver rootnose, moiv, NancyK

    but the rest of us must be slaves the Democratic party?

  •  can I ask... (0+ / 0-)

    ...how many doors you knoched on in the last two years, How many phone calles did you make, how much money did you give? Etc. Etc

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 06:45:25 PM PST

  •  I don't consider (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moiv, NancyK, DaveVentura

    the DOJ brief comparing queer marriage to incest and pedophilia a 'slight' sign of trouble.

    I don't consider Obama choosing Rick Warren to speak at his the inaguaration 'slight'.

    I don't consider the Obama administration always waiting until Friday afternoons after everyone has gone home to release any gay-related news as 'slight', especially when that gay news is always the opposite of where a fierce advocate should be.

    I don't consider Obama 'congratulating' Lieberman or having his people attacking Dean as slight.

    Obama declaring the decision in Copenhagen as a 'victory' while many other (non-US sources) are calling it a travesty and a triumph of low expectations wasn't the first sign of trouble either and neither was the Dems tossing women's bodily autonomy under the bus - again.

    I don't consider queer rights or women's rights or climate change or banking reform or health care to be 'minor' issues, but Obama apparently does.

    The signs have been there since the beginning, but they are finally reaching such a weight that our backs are breaking under the pile of crap, bullshit and broken promises.

    You should be pleading with the President. He's the one with the power to change all this. We're just the 'left of the left', whiny bloggers who should just shut up and leave the politics to the grown-ups.

  •  Reading so many of your (0+ / 0-)

    diary's comments I can see what you are talking about. Feel better because of some of them though. Trolls and dipshits aren't the people we have to worry about.

  •  Do you think opposition to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaveVentura

    abortion restrictions (and the other crap is this bill) is just "making a point"?  

    There are valid reasons for those that oppose this bill.  There are valid reasons for being angry at Obama for his dishonesty throughout this entire process.

    To suggest that those who are disgusted with this bill want Obama to fail is ridiculous.  They are disgusted because of what's (and what's not) in the current bill - and how Obama played us all.

    Sure, Obama has time to improve this and follow through on other promises to the base - and the groups that oppose this bill would welcome that.  But for now, with THIS specific bill, many folks are livid at our President, and justifiably so.

    Obama was for the middle class before he was against it.

    by nandssmith on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 08:04:48 PM PST

  •  Haven't we beaten this topic to death yet? (0+ / 0-)

    "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

    by denise b on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 08:05:35 PM PST

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