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In 1962 the Confederate battle flag was placed on top of the South Carolina statehouse by vote of the all-white legislature. While other Southern states removed the flag from their statehouses, South Carolina refused to follow suit. This prompted the NAACP to organize a national economic boycott against South Carolina's $14 billion-a-year tourism industry, and since the summer of 1999, more than 100 conventions and business organizations have participated in the boycott.

On April 12, 2000, the South Carolina state senate finally passed a bill to remove the flag by a majority of 36-7. On July 1, the flag was removed from the South Carolina statehouse and would be flown in front of the Capitol next to a monument honoring fallen Confederate soldiers.

Robert Dobbs for Congress, SC-01

Whether you are a Federal candidate or not the issue of the Confederate flag is important because on a National level, it has affected the State of South Carolina both economically and socially. It also affects its citizen’s civil rights as well, which is a Federal issue.

For African Americans the confederate flag is a system of terror, oppression, separation, and racism. The flying of the flag on the Capitol grounds is a slap in the face to all Americans who believe in equality.

Senator Strom Thurmond rose to prominence in 1948 with the States Rights Democratic Party, better known as the Dixiecrats and his party stood for segregation and against race mixing. Throughout his congressional, career Thurmond has opposed every major civil rights initiative.

University of South Carolina Coach Steve Spurrier,"I realize I'm not supposed to get in the political arena as a football coach, but if anybody were to ask me about that damn Confederate flag, I would say we need to get rid of it." Spurrier received death threats after saying the Confederate flag shouldn't be anywhere near the state Capitol.

The refusal to put this to pasture has cost South Carolina NCAA, SEC, and ACC Tournaments, which "hello" would have brought money into the State's economy. The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) based out of Indiana were coming to Charleston for their convention and pulled out because of the flag; ACC announced that it has pulled the 2011-2013 baseball championships from Myrtle Beach amid NAACP concerns about the event being held in South Carolina (these tournaments are now set in North Carolina); and South Carolina could lose Federal funding all together if Congress actually acted upon the Civil War Amendments.

It is still against federal law for the Confederate flag to be associated, in any manner, with any public building in this country. In order for the Confederate states to be readmitted to the Union, they had to individually ratify the Civil War Amendments: the 13th, 14th and 15th. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the 13th Amendment not only proscribes the institution of slavery, but also prohibits all "badges and incidents of slavery."

In addition, the 14th Amendment prohibits racially discriminatory state actions, including any expression of racial supremacy. The Confederate States of America surrendered its national flag to the General Grant in the town of Appomattox Courthouse, Virginia, April 9, 1865. Militarily, this meant that the flag would never fly again over U.S. soil. Constitutionally, South Carolina and other states lost the right to fly the flag when it ratified the 13th and 14th Amendments.

Stick the flag where it belongs (museum or somewhere else) and let the tourist dollars associated with ACC and NCAA events come back into our fine state.

Robert Dobbs for Congress, SC-01

Originally posted to rdobbs2010 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:02 AM PST.

Poll

Should the Confederate Flag be removed from government property?

72%156 votes
26%56 votes
0%2 votes

| 214 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Here's a perfect argument (19+ / 0-)

    for what's wrong with the Confederate flag:

    It is the flag of traitors to the United States of America!  Traitors!  The Confederacy committed treason against the Constitution, and they lost.  That ought to be the end of the story.

    Pat Robertson is a dumbfuck!

    by dlh77489 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:06:22 AM PST

  •  Shelby Foote was asked in a Q&A after a talk (19+ / 0-)

    about SC's insistence on flying the battle ensign.  His response was perfect:

    While the flag was a symbol of bravery and heritage, when Southern white intellectuals and leaders failed to stand up to yahoos and bigots who took it as a symbol of opposition to civil rights in the 50s and 60s, they lost the right to fly it publicly with honor.

    I liked that he specifically called out those who knew better but wouldn't go against the ignorant and hateful.

    Finally, some new songs up at da web site!

    by Crashing Vor on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:10:05 AM PST

    •  Shelby Foote's response was good. (4+ / 0-)

      The Confederate battle flag's not really a system of anything, though.

      It can stand for different things to different people.

      It does invoke an intricate and difficult array of emotions.

      Some of those emotions, believe it or not, are not anger, hatred, or a desire to denigrate the existence and accomplishments of human beings.

      Texas: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Lady Bird & LBJ, Ann Richards, Sam Rayburn, Dan Rather, Ike, Sully Sullenberger, Lloyd Bentsen. It's No Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:18:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think that's why it pained him to say it. (5+ / 0-)

        His first thought when he saw the ensign was of his great-grandfather, who had fought under it.

        But he had come to see that its use for hate, and the failure of better minds to fight that use, had soiled it.

        Finally, some new songs up at da web site!

        by Crashing Vor on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:24:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Part of the problem to me... (6+ / 0-)

        ...is not the emotions of those flying the Confederate flag, but the emotions raised in those witnessing it. I'm pretty open minded, but I also know the power of symbols.

        As far as I'm concerned, I see no more reason to approve of flying the Confederate flag than I would of approving flying of the flag of Nazi Germany or fascist Italy. (Yeah, yeah. Godwin's Law and all that.)

        They are symbols of reprehensible conduct and mass bloodshed. I'm pretty open minded, but I also know the power of symbols. There are many in the South that claim thay see the Confederate flag as the flag of their ancestors. I wouldn't buy that line of reasoning from the others I mentioned, so why would I buy it from Southerners?

        "Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success." -7.75/-6.05

        by QuestionAuthority on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:31:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Stars & Bars is worse than the swastika (4+ / 0-)

          in this context, as the Nazis co-opted an ages-old symbol and tainted it in our modern eyes.  The Stars & Bars on the other hand is specific enough not to be able to be confused by anyone as to its place and time in history.

          I am proud to live in a nation that hasn't practiced torture since 1/20/2009 - I just wish this alone didn't justify celebrating.

          by RethinkEverything on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:34:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  However, the CSA and Nazi Germany (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grada3784, RethinkEverything

            ...are extinct.

            Granted, the USA has a checkered history, but it still exists as a political entity. Perhaps with time, it will completely fulfill its promises to Humanity.

            Germans don't "celebrate" that history. Indeed, display of the swastika is banned. Even models sold in Germany cannot display it. The Germans are actively trying to move away from and disown the Nazi regime.

            "Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success." -7.75/-6.05

            by QuestionAuthority on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:50:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Er... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grada3784

            the Nazis co-opted an ages-old symbol and tainted it in our modern eyes.

            While the generic symbol of "a cross with its ends bent at right angles to its arms" is indeed quite old, the symbol "a reversed black Hakenkreuz turned 45° so as to stand on its corner, on a white disk on a red background" is just as specifically Nazi as the Stars and Bars are specifically Confederate, and any such symbol (or slight variants on the symbol, often substituting another radially symmetric black symbol for the Hakenkreuz, but still on a white disk on red) are very clearly trying to imply or emulate the Nazis.

        •  And as I point out below (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grada3784

          The Nazi flag is actually a much larger part of German heritage than the Confederate flag is of Southern heritage.  The Third Reich lasted nearly three times as long as the CSA.  It's a BIG part of German history.

          Moreover, it's more recent.  Nobody alive today has ever met any of their purported "ancestors" who fought under the Confederate flag.  But there are plenty of Germans with living memories of fathers and grandfathers, brave and loving family men, who fought under the Nazi flag.  Why shouldn't they also be allowed to "celebrate" that "heritage?"

          "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression." -Thomas Paine

          by sierrak9s on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:40:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Slight correction... (4+ / 0-)

            No doubt there are still a few people alive who are in their twilight years who met their great-grandparents early on and heard a few first-hand accounts.  But that pool must be pretty small...

            I am proud to live in a nation that hasn't practiced torture since 1/20/2009 - I just wish this alone didn't justify celebrating.

            by RethinkEverything on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:43:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks, you're prob'ly right (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RethinkEverything

              Main point still stands, but thanks for the correction.

              "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression." -Thomas Paine

              by sierrak9s on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 12:17:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  forex, me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RethinkEverything

              I'm 50.

              My mother's dad told me tales, when I was a pre-schooler, of his life and times. He went up the Chisholm in his teens, twice. Too young to be a soldier, he had lost kin in both armies during the War Between the States.

              My parents both lost siblings in WWII. The pool of folks like me is shrinking, though.

              It is easy, and it is politically encouraged, to say that slavery was the sole cause of the War Between the States.
              Other issues are discounted and dismissed in the one-size-fits-all curriculum taught today; but as we're finding out as people react to Pat Robertson's ill-conceived pronouncements about the history of Haiti, nothing is as simple as those one-book-based history lessons, is it?

              Texas: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Lady Bird & LBJ, Ann Richards, Sam Rayburn, Dan Rather, Ike, Sully Sullenberger, Lloyd Bentsen. It's No Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 01:19:43 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Emotions... (3+ / 0-)

        Not a good "reason" to fly a symbol...  

        How you, I or anyone "feels" about it should be irrelevant...

        I believe that it's true that Joe Wilson's behavior speaks for the attitude of MOST who "feel" like flying the Rebel Yell.  

        Now I'm willing to grant you that a small percentage of people may have examined themselves and their motivations closely enough (relative to what you're saying) that I could conceive of given a select few the benefit of the doubt...

        I'd hate to play those percentages in a game of chance, however...

        True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else. -------------------------------------------------------Clarence Darrow

        by Leroy the Roadie on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:34:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Leroy the Roadie: you've been misled, I think (0+ / 0-)

          or do you not consider the emotions behind displays of the US flag, the POW flag, or your diploma as good 'reason' to display a symbol?

          Texas: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Lady Bird & LBJ, Ann Richards, Sam Rayburn, Dan Rather, Ike, Sully Sullenberger, Lloyd Bentsen. It's No Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 01:22:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who's leading / misleading me, ya think...? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mississippi boatrat

            It's been said that some love their flag / country like a child loves it's mommy, with the result being that you can't say anything bad about mommy.

            And some love their flag / country the way an adult loves it's mother.  She ain't perfect but hell, who is...?

            True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else. -------------------------------------------------------Clarence Darrow

            by Leroy the Roadie on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 01:33:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What was it Churchill said? "My mother, (0+ / 0-)

              drunk or sober."

              I just upgraded internet speed. Now I can be late to the best diaries, faster.

              by mississippi boatrat on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 01:35:42 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "My country, wrong or right: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mississippi boatrat

                when right to be supported, when wrong to be put right."

                Paraphrased. I think it was John Adams.

                Nothing is as simple as a war over one issue.
                Unless you deny that the war in Iraq had any motive but money for Cheney's cabal.

                Texas: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Lady Bird & LBJ, Ann Richards, Sam Rayburn, Dan Rather, Ike, Sully Sullenberger, Lloyd Bentsen. It's No Bush League!

                by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 01:37:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Teh Google should be my friend: (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Munchkn, Leroy the Roadie

                  The line is from Chesterton's first book of essaysThe Defendant(1901) from the chapter, "A Defence of Patriotism":
                  "'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'" - The "Quotemeister"

                  I just upgraded internet speed. Now I can be late to the best diaries, faster.

                  by mississippi boatrat on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 01:57:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  My gut tells me... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mississippi boatrat, Munchkn

                  ...that you and I could have great discussions, and I appreciate your knowledge and calm tone.

                  With that said, ...what ARE those emotions behind wanting to fly that flag...?

                  Too often, it's hatred about the loss of White Supremacy (in my experience.)   Call it "States Rights" if you must...  It's coded language...

                  You seen any hard stats about exactly what people are feeling who defend it?  

                  I don't have any stats, but I grew up in the Deep South (I'm assuming like you.)   My entire life history leads me to believe this (white supremacy) to be true, and further discussions with people who claim it to be "pride" tend to be revealing about attitudes that I find very troubling...

                  Conflating the U.S. flag with the Confederate flag is amusing to me...  Let's secede from this crappy joint THAT YOU BETTER NOT SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT NOW...!  Childish of me to say it that way, but hey, the emotions behind the U.S. flag over Ft. Henry are one thing.    In Saigon...?  Something else...  Context...  Always looking for context...

                  The context for the Confederate Flag in S.C. is Joe Wilson-land...

                  POW flag...?  Let's not discuss John McCain...  Sorry, that's snarky too, but if you put a little Confederate Flag up in the corner of the POW flag in order to celebrate Confederate POW's then perhaps we're on topic...  Slavery and white supremacy in the U.S. is the topic for me.  If it's "economics" or something for you, great, but not for me.  Yes, there are VERY rich families here in Boston that got their money from the slave trade, and some even laundered the cash through Bibles (sick) and molasses (ironic), so there's not lock on purity in the North on the issue, but slavery is the issue in my book...

                  My diploma...  Hmm...  Guess I'll quote Randy Newman on that one:

                  "Good old boys from LSU...  Went in dumb, come out dumb too...  Hustlin' 'roun' Atlanta in their alligator shoes...  Gittin' drunk every weekend at the BarBQ."   I won't say the last line...

                  I'm joking, of course, but the whole idea of loyalty to a "cause" or an institution makes me uncomfortable when it's blind or required to "fit in"...

                  Patriot...?  Hell yeah I love my country...  I even love the Deep South dearly...  I've lived on ALL THREE coasts of this country, and I've seen the attitudes of all three, plus the "Heartland" and the "Homeland"...  

                  It's the "Fatherland" crowd that bothers me...  KKK...?  I thought of them as Nazis when I was a tyke, and that's when I was all alone and wondering "What IS it with y'all...?"

                  Rant over...

                  I'm listening, believe it or not, but I do have to leave the house soon...  If I don't reply immediately, it's not because I'm not interested in what you have to say...

                  True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else. -------------------------------------------------------Clarence Darrow

                  by Leroy the Roadie on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 02:09:25 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  because the southen white elites (8+ / 0-)

      benefit from the actions of yahoos. Yeah they know better and don't care because they win elections and make money off these folks.

  •  How any state in the union flies the flag of (11+ / 0-)

    secession without a sense of irony is beyond me.

    Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

    by bvig on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:14:41 AM PST

  •  Being African American and having lived in GA (11+ / 0-)

    my entire life, I think the Confederate flag promotes divisiveness, discrimination and prejudice.  I can certainly accept the fact that it is a sign of one's heritage, but I find it hard to accept its use as a symbol along with the American flag on a capitol building. To AAs, it's a constant reminder of being a second class citizen within one's own state and nation.  Congressional representative  Joe Wilson voted against the flag's removal when he was in the S.C. legislature, and this has provided me some insight into how he views people of color and into why for the first time in U.S. history, we had a member of Congress disrupt a speech being delivered by a POTUS.  IMHO, his election to Congress indicates that people in his district share his views, not all, but those who voted to send him to Congress.

    •  majii, the ignorant we have always with us, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grada3784, QuestionAuthority

      to paraphrase Christ.

      Are you one of those who believe that Sherman's march to the sea was justified?

      Texas: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Lady Bird & LBJ, Ann Richards, Sam Rayburn, Dan Rather, Ike, Sully Sullenberger, Lloyd Bentsen. It's No Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:25:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, I think it was a war tactic. Sherman made a (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grada3784, QuestionAuthority

        promise to Lincoln and kept it.  I don't believe anyone should be denied their right to celebrate their heritage.  I feel that if I seek to restrict the rights of others, I open myself up to the same restriction.  Let those who revere the Confederate flag do so, but not on state government buildings.

        •  IF the South had won .. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grada3784, Munchkn, majii

          then they could have flown their flag on their state buildings and their Capitol buildings.

          But they lost! So we (America) fly our flag on our gov't buildings and state capitols.  

          NOT THEIR FLAG!

          Glenn - Who cuts your hair and why do they hate you? (Jon Stewart)

          by veruca60 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:32:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If the war was going on right now... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grada3784, Munchkn

            you can bet that your house would display one flag and one flag only.  I have it on good authority that German-Americans did their best to "blend in" round about 1917-1918 and 1941-1945, and Japanese-Americans certainly paid a heavy price during WWII.  Granted it has been 145 years, but it is time for these "South Shall Rise" Southerners to MOVE ON!!!

            I am proud to live in a nation that hasn't practiced torture since 1/20/2009 - I just wish this alone didn't justify celebrating.

            by RethinkEverything on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:40:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Those that choose to start a war... (5+ / 0-)

        ...can hardly complain about the cost.

        War is Hell.

        "Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success." -7.75/-6.05

        by QuestionAuthority on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:32:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  QuestionAuthority: do you complain of the (0+ / 0-)

          cost of the war in Iraq?

          I do.

          'Twasn't my idea to start it.

          Wasn't my idea to have kids who graduated in the same HS classes with my sons killed or maimed in it.

          Wasn't my idea to waste untold billions of American dollars, wreck a nation that hadn't attacked us, step aside from pursuing Bin Laden and his coterie, kill unnumbered innocent civilians, or turn us into a nation that tortures POWs.

          I damn sure do dispute the cost of that war.

          Texas: Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Lady Bird & LBJ, Ann Richards, Sam Rayburn, Dan Rather, Ike, Sully Sullenberger, Lloyd Bentsen. It's No Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 01:26:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  To this day... (9+ / 0-)

    ... I don't understand how dumbasses like my sister can argue for the slave owners.  They are of the same mentality that would (and do?) enslave her today.

    If we were from a rich family that had sold its soul generations ago for a trust fund, I could at least understand her argument from a financial perspective...

    Otherwise, THANKS crappy education system, Fox News, and the new tribalism...!

    True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else. -------------------------------------------------------Clarence Darrow

    by Leroy the Roadie on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:19:06 AM PST

  •  I'm not undecided (5+ / 0-)

    And I'm a very strong opponent of the use of either the actual CSA flag or the Confederate battle flag as a casual symbol of "the South" or "rebellion" or of anything other than what it was: a symbol of the fight to break away from the United States in order to preserve slavery as an economic system in the South (and other territories that the CSA was desirous of acquiring).

    However, the Confederate flags and other symbols are still part of our history, and there are certain places, times, and circumstances where their display may be warranted as part of a historical lesson.  We can't and shouldn't try to rewrite the past; we need, instead, to learn from it.

    "Remove the flag from government property" is far too broad.  Should we take flags and other symbols out of museums?  Should we sandblast Confederate symbols off monuments to Confederate war dead?  That's not just refraining from praising the Confederacy; it's pretending that it never existed, which is just as bad.

    I think there's an appropriate middle ground that neither glorifies the CSA nor denies its existence.

    •  I agree with this reasoning (5+ / 0-)

      much in the same way as I agree with preserving Nazi artifacts from WWII.  However, there is a huge difference between flying the flag over the state capitol and placing it in spot that recognizes and discusses the state's history.

      The glorification of the Stars & Bars is more symbolic of the "Southern Pride" regionalism which would be OK with me if not for the Confederacy's historic legacy.  The fact that I have never once heard of a black southerner getting a tattoo or hanging a Confederate flag in their truck's rear window makes me pretty sure that there is a general acknowledgement by all that there are significant racial undertones attached to this...

      I am proud to live in a nation that hasn't practiced torture since 1/20/2009 - I just wish this alone didn't justify celebrating.

      by RethinkEverything on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:28:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't disagree with the (7+ / 0-)

      historical and cultural importance of symbols like the flags, but I cannot accept having them prominently displayed over a state legislature or any other governmental chamber.  That indicates an acceptance of the ideas behind the symbol.

      When in doubt, tweak the freeqs.

      by wozzle on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:30:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rebuttal (5+ / 0-)

      I understand your argument but as stated by myself and others, the Confederacy surrendered.  The Confederacy is dead.  Lee surrendered, Jefferson Davis was captured, and the Civil War was finished over 140 years ago.

      •  What are you rebutting? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grada3784, RethinkEverything

        I'm not saying that any of the Confederate flags should be flown over state capitals or prominently displayed in legislative chambers.

        But I am saying that barring, as you suggest, Confederate symbols from government property, is a drastic measure no less inflammatory than the flag itself.  Many Confederate cemeteries and monuments are going to be on government property.  Are you really suggesting that we should demand the defacing of monuments and tombstones of people who died, as you point out, over 140 years ago?

    •  Agreed. (6+ / 0-)

      Whitewashing the past isn't any better than glorifying it.

      I am a relatively recent transplant to the South, and I try to explain to my native Southern friends that it's virtually indistinguishable from the Nazi flag.

      "Heritage," they say?  Of course it's part of Southern heritage.  The Nazi flag is also part of German heritage.  The Third Reich is actually a much larger part of German history (1933-1945) than the CSA is of Southern history (1861-1865).  So why can't the Germans celebrate that large part of their "heritage" as well?

      Brave men fought under the Nazi flag, just as they did under the Confederate flag.  Family men.  Men who loved their children and loved their country.

      "But it isn't about slavery, it's about Southern pride."  Is that so?  Of all of the things uniquely Southern that you can use to celebrate Southern pride, you choose a symbol that was relevant for only four years out of more than 200, and was unique chiefly in its representation of a republic self-assuredly based upon the expansion and preservation of human bondage.  You don't choose to display Louisiana crawfish, or Florida marlin, or Tennessee mountains, or Georgia peaches, or kudzu.  No.  The symbol you have decided to celebrate is one whose only distinguishing feature is its association with a short-lived rebellion in favor of slavery.

      But you're not bigots.  Oh heavens no.

      "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression." -Thomas Paine

      by sierrak9s on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:37:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Stars & bars... (7+ / 0-)

    On a personal note.  I have lived all my life in the northern suburbs of NYC.  Specifically Yonkers and then Amawalk,(Somers). My family and I went to VA Beach for a Nat'l Cheerleading Comp.  My 6 year old son and I went to a store to buy beach towels and he saw one that was a confederate flag and thought it was really cool looking.  Wow.  How to explain to him just why he couldn't have that towel.  In a store-in a few seconds.
    I really had not seen this flag prominently displayed ALL over like I did there.It seems so crazy and so wrong to me.
    We have also gone to Daytona Beach for a Cheer comp.  One team was called the rebels!  Their uniforms were very closely styled after the confederate flag.  I was aghast.  Verklempt even!  BTW the team was interracial and one of the African-American mothers wore a tee that said in big letters REBELS!
    I guess they are just really different from us up here in the tri-state bubble.  

    Glenn - Who cuts your hair and why do they hate you? (Jon Stewart)

    by veruca60 on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:23:17 AM PST

  •  Southern Sympathy (12+ / 0-)

    is a sign of a failed mind.

    Those who think the South was fighting for a noble cause IMO are simply in denial. The Civil War was fought to extend and preserve slavery, period.

    The "State's Right" the Confederacy was fighting for was the "right" to extend slavery to the west. When Lincoln won the election of 1860 it was on a Free Soil platform which meant no expansion of slavery. That caused the the south to secede. The civil war would have been avoided if the Union had agree to allow the expansion of slavery into the west in spite of the election of 1860 or if the Confederacy had accepted the restriction of slavery to where it was currently practiced.

    Lincoln was willing to do almost anything to avoid the Civil War, but he would not agree to allow slavery into the west. Lincoln was willing to buy all the slaves and emancipate them. Lincoln was also willing to push for a constitutional amendment to guarantee the legality of slavery where it existed to the year of 1900. The South would have none of it.

    Southern plantations were as much ranches as they were farms. Slavery as a source of labor was not as efficient as wages. The advantage of slavery economically was that the children of slaves had value. So the profitability of slavery depended on the expansion the slavery, which the states that made up the Confederacy expected to be the Kansas, New Mexico, Arizona and other areas.

    The Confederacy was founded by slave holders for slave holders. That is a clear fact of history. Those who fought of the Confederacy fought for slavery no matter what their personal reservations to the institution of slavery may have been.

    Whatever glory which covers those who fought for the Confederacy comes strictly for how they fought, it certainly does not come from why they fought.

    We shall overcome, someday. Yes we can.

    by Sam Wise Gingy on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 11:37:39 AM PST

  •  People will argue it is simply about heritage (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Munchkn, Leroy the Roadie

    The problem with this and other arguments in the South is that it is a lie to cover up the real thinking.  

    There is a way to bust this proposition however.  If Southerners would publicly and strongly repudiate the Klan and racism, it would diminish the dark stain of what this flag has stood for since the Civil War.

    No Southern heritage proponents have been willing to stand up in public and repudiate this aspect of the heritage, however.

    Thus, you have to conclude that they don't see the issue, or they are unwilling to face it.  Not a lot of difference either way.

    Thus, removing it from association with public acceptability, especially anything supported by public tax dollars, is the only way.  

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 12:40:15 PM PST

  •  That flag needs to be burned (0+ / 0-)

    on government property.

    Is it not written "There's a lot goes on we don't get told."? (Lu Tze)

    by MakeChessNotWar on Fri Jan 15, 2010 at 12:54:17 PM PST

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