Skip to main content

JNEREBEL has a diary reporting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's (known in Israel and to people familiar with with him as Bibi) clownish behavior... So I mean this diary to be in conjunction with his found Here (JNEREBEL'S Diary)

Anyway because I contribute to Americans for Peace Now (APN) I was looking at their website and came across something that I thought was very interesting. I have been getting more and more disappointed with Israel regarding what is happening in the West Bank as part of the Israeli Occupation and the fact of the matter is that I am now convinced the Israeli Right is gambling away the existence of the State of Israel.

Needless to say - follow me over the fold to see the latest suggestion from Americans for Peace Now and their sister organization Shalom Achshav in Israel.

Following today's story here (again cross posted at JNEREBEL's diary) is this gem from Bibi -

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Wednesday that Israel must have a presence in the West Bank to stop rockets from being imported even after a peace agreement is achieved, the first time he has spelled out such a demand.

He said the experience of rocket attacks from the Lebanese and Gaza borders means Israel must be able to prevent such weapons from being brought into any future Palestinian entity in the West Bank.

"We cannot afford to have that across from the center of our country," he told foreign reporters Wednesday in Jerusalem.

"In the case of a future settlement with the Palestinians, this will require an Israeli presence on the eastern side of a prospective Palestinian state," he said, without elaborating.

http://www.jpost.com/...

So in effect, Israel still has to have a military presence in or surrounding a country that it has a peace treaty with... Yeah - right. That is so mind numbingly stupid to think anyone would agree to that it boggles the mind.

It is obvious that Netanyahu now is pushing the Lieberman, and right wing agenda of permanent occupation or unilateral disengagement (based on the model that has worked so well in Gaza).

I had been disparing what to do and then I read from Americans for Peace Now (see link above):

As President Obama embarks on his second year in office, he and his team continue to reiterate their commitment to achieving Israeli-Palestinian peace. Indeed, President Obama's peace team remains actively engaged and for the first time in months there are encouraging signs of progress toward renewing peace talks.  

An important lesson from 2009, however, is that it will take more than patience and polite words to make peace.  In his first year in office, President Obama articulated a clear vision for Middle East peace, worked tirelessly to make progress toward that goal, and in tangible terms achieved something significant, in the form of Israel's decision to adopt a partial settlement moratorium.  His efforts to make further progress, however, were stymied by intransigence on the part of both Israel and the Palestinians, by lack of clear buy-in and support from the Arab world, and by his own resolve to be unfailingly patient and polite, regardless of the behavior of others.

http://peacenow.org/...

I got a laugh out of that last sentence since this seems to be haunting us Democrats and the President in terms of HCR

APN and Shalom Achshav suggest the following:

  1. Clarify Expectations: Make it clear to both sides to stop screwing around (my terms) and talk. They say here:

This means making clear that the US expects Israel: to return to negotiations without any preconditions and to negotiate seriously and in good faith; to lift the Gaza closure and permit the movement of goods and people, with appropriate international supervision; to stop playing games on settlement freeze - to stop giving new exceptions to allow more building, to clamp down on illegal construction, and to stop efforts to legalize outposts; and to clamp down on provocative actions in East Jerusalem that prejudge the negotiations and threaten to foment violence that might jeopardize them.

It means making clear that the US expects the Palestinians: to return to negotiations without any preconditions and to negotiate seriously and in good faith; to vigorously fight anti-Israeli violence and incitement; to start real internal Fatah/PLO reform to rebuild credibility; and to work sincerely to address the schism in the Palestinian polity so that a single Palestinian government with the legitimacy and capacity to make peace is established.  

  1. Stand Firm - If we say it than back it up. Simple as that.

The US does Israel no favors by going along with Israeli foot-dragging and actions that create obstacles to peace - whether on settlements, Jerusalem, Gaza, or the terms of reference for negotiations.  As Israel's closest ally, the US must not sit by while Israel continues further down a self-destructive path. The frequency and severity of challenges to Israel's legitimacy are on the rise. Credible progress towards a two-state solution is necessary to demonstrate that Israel's existence does not mean the denial of Palestinian rights. Moreover, the status quo - whereby Israel controls the lives of millions of Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza - jeopardizes Israel's viability as a Jewish and democratic state.

The US does President Abbas and his Fatah allies no favors by yielding to their internal political maneuvering, whether with respect to negotiations, Gaza, national unity, or belligerent rhetoric.  President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad are credible partners for peace, but the US does not help their domestic credibility or enhance their ability to deliver the Palestinian side of a peace agreement by getting caught up in the Palestinian internal political struggle.

  1. Change the Tone -

It is time for the US to adopt a tough tone and to use tough language, in public and private, with all parties.  This means stating unambiguously that the achievement of a viable Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement is vital to US national security and that actions by any party that undermine the achievement of this goal threaten those interests.

Make U.S. Leverage an issue - reiterate our power to use that -

This is not a call for the US to threaten aid to Israel or the PA.  Playing hardball should not and must not mean taking steps that threaten Israel's security or further hurt the Palestinian humanitarian situation.  To the contrary: the US must assure both sides that as they move toward peace, America and the international community would work tirelessly to enhance their security, international legitimacy and well-being.

At the same time, the US has other forms of leverage which it can to bring to bear.  This includes diplomatic signals of displeasure and shifts in tone on sensitive policy areas.  The Obama Administration also has the ability to impose real costs on the parties, without cutting US assistance, both with and without Congressional approval.  The Obama Administration should make a comprehensive assessment of its leverage options vis-à-vis all parties, and it should make clear to the parties that it is ready to use this leverage, if required.

The payoff: APN puts it better than I could:

Conversely, if President Obama plays hardball in 2010, he has the chance to launch a process that could do what no other president has succeeded in doing: end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  And when Israeli right-wingers and their US allies try to accuse him of being too tough on Israel (which they inevitably will do) President Obama can look them and the world in the eye and proudly stand by a Middle East peace policy that is credible, serious and has a real chance of success.

With Bibi's changing positions faster than Glenn Beck on the subject of President Obama's racism and the Right Wing imposing a whole new internal order on Israel - Unfortunately it is up to the U.S. and Israel's true friends to create a situation where Israel can survive in the long run as the homeland of the Jewish People and the Palestinians can acheive a national homeland to end their 60+ years diaspora.

   

Originally posted to volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 02:42 PM PST.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Great diary! (9+ / 0-)

    I am now convinced the Israeli Right is gambling away the existence of the State of Israel.

    Much as the American right is doing with our country.....

    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

    by JNEREBEL on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 02:53:56 PM PST

    •  Yep - This sux - (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      livosh1, JNEREBEL, Tonedevil, Gatordiet

      I am friends on Facebook with a lot of folks from the town in NY that I grew up in. It is a small town and very conservative. I posted this today:

      People of Massachusetts.... thanks for nothing - Dems. of Mass. - Screw you for nominating the worst candidate since Michael Dukakis.... Next time try get less than 30% of the vote - you can do it. GRRRR pissed off doesn't even begin to describe.....

      And all of these people are just cheering for last night and giving me the proverbial "finger" although in a friendly way.

      Stupid Right Wingers. They suck everywhere whether it be Likud, Hamas, or the Republican Party. They just suck as human beings.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 02:59:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The difference is that. (0+ / 0-)

      The American right will only ruin the nation financially and set it back twenty years.  The Israeli right will destroy Israel and all the people who live in Israel/Palestine with their final war.

      It is like Haiti in some aspects.  Where if the international community cared beforehand then a lot of the death and destruction could have been avoided.  If they only provided for sensible infrastructure and support.  

      Now a catastrophe could occur in Israel at any moment.  Where hundreds of thousands to millions will die if only the international community cared enough to stop the political insanity that has consumed Israel.  If they can only provide guidance and support right now.  Otherwise it will be to late.

      And all that will happen will be token pledges to rebuild the charred and destroyed remains of a nation that was.  As well as the lament of what we could have done to prevent it all.

      •  I believe you neglected (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, volleyboy1

        to think of the war with Iraq and the thousands of people whom have died needlessly.

        Any more right wing gems like that is too, too much.

        "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

        by JNEREBEL on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:31:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That didn't destroy the USA (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eiron, Terra Mystica

          It destroyed Iraq.  The right wing government of Israel is calling for national suicide.  

          I deplore the geopolitical wars of the USA.  Especially the Neoconservative wars that tried to force democracy at gunpoint onto nations.  But that does not preclude me from being a realist.  

          The Iraq war was hideous and there are still many consequences left over from it.  But there is one positive side to it.  Which is that the sanctions on Iraq are finally over.  The Iraqis do not need to watch their children die from malnutrition now.

          The sanctions could have been lifted and 1.7 million Iraqis could have lived good lives.  But that is not how American politics work.  Liberals have to run with cold hearts to beat conservatives who run with no hearts.  That is our reality.

          It is the burden of any democratic religious nation.  To lose it's sight and soul in the political pursuit of an eye for an eye.

  •  Volley, hate to nitpick, but (6+ / 0-)

    there shouldn't be an apostrophe in "Americans for Peace Now." It's one of those things that always gets me...

    "You can be a real prick, Red Sox, and this time you have been a real prick." - Celtic Merlin Carlinist

    by Red Sox on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:00:56 PM PST

    •  Fixed - thanks (0+ / 0-)

      But what do you think of the diary?

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:17:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I like it, and agree with (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1, sofia, volleyboy1

        most of what APN/SA has to say. That said, the idea of the POTUS playing hardball with Israel while his political stock is on a steep decline is something of a fantasy.

        "You can be a real prick, Red Sox, and this time you have been a real prick." - Celtic Merlin Carlinist

        by Red Sox on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:19:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe not (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          General Choomin

          He has to change up something. Honestly most Americans could give a shit about this one way or the other. President Obama can play hardball but if he explains it the right way he will be fine.

          I would love to see AIPAC try to defend a Jewish non-democracy - they can't. And it doesn't matter - they are not that relevant.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:25:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  CAMERA (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie

            is relevant.  They are very very good at what they do.  Even if they aren't a "part" of AIPAC.

            •  They are good at what they do (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              General Choomin

              but they have no say in our government. Oh they may brag about affecting policy but honestly they are just not that big of a factor. AIPAC won't make or break you unless you are in a place with a strong Jewish vote and honestly with 6 million Jews out of 300 million Americans we are a "fart in a windstorm" when it comes to influence despite what anyone tells you.

              Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:05:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  if camera only influenced (0+ / 0-)

                the jewish vote you would be right. the arm of their hasbara is a tad farther than the jewish vote.

              •  They have pretty big influence. (0+ / 0-)

                For example, there coordinated op-ed letters to the editor flood newspapers around the country.  They also have set up "curriculum" that is sent to synagogues to brainwash young kids.  Hell, they even have members posting on the dailyshow forums out in the open.

                It might be a relatively small( maybe 1,000- 5,000 members) organization, but it is a powerful one with a lot of extremely dedicated members.  Right now they are currently on a holy war against C-span of all things.

                Shalom CAMERA E-Mail Team:

                Washington Journal, C-SPAN's daily public affairs interview program, has become a megaphone for anti-Jewish, anti-Israel conspiracy theorists. Its January 4 segment with former CIA staffer and anti-Israel obsessive Michael Scheuer, epitomizes the problem. Phone-in portions frequently feature anti-Semitic rants - often from repeat callers in violation of C-SPAN's ostensible 30-days-between-calls rule. Washington Journal's rotating hosts "catatonically," as one critic put it, ignore the vitriol.

                CAMERA has documented for more than a year C-SPAN's de facto collaboration in disseminating this social poison in our Web site feature C-SPAN Watch. Scheuer's latest "blame Israel and its supporters" performance, abetted by Washington Journal host Bill Scanlan, seemed to especially incite the network's lunatic fringe.

                Except for American Jews, Washington Journal allows no religious or ethnic group to be repeatedly vilified. Except for Israel, it permits no country to be demonized. Only in the case of Jews and Israel do C-SPAN hosts permit such slander. It's long past time for this to stop.

                Network executives have refused to respond to CAMERA requests to end the hijacking of the program by anti-Jewish, anti-Israel bigots. Now the Board Members of C-SPAN, most of whom are also executives in the cable television world, must hear from you. C-SPAN is supported by fees from cable companies that include the network's programming in their basic cable package.

                The scary thing is.  I think they will pull it off.

                •  Where did you get that email (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Terra Mystica

                  I would like to see the source of that.

                  Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                  by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:45:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  heh im on the action alert mailing list lol (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Terra Mystica, volleyboy1

                    It is from alert@camera.org .  Here is the other half of the email.

                    Please use the information in the alert as background for your own letter. Do not copy and paste directly from the alert and do not forward it to the media.

                    • Contact C-SPAN's senior executives once more to firmly but politely demand a halt to the spread of hatred by the network.

                    Brian Lamb, Chairman and CEO
                    Tel: 202-626-7958

                    Steven Scully, Political Editor and Washington Journal anchor
                    sscully@c-span.org
                    Tel: 202-626-7956

                    Craig Caplan, Executive Producer, Washington Journal
                    ccaplan@c-span.org
                    Tel: 202-626-4848
                    • Contact one or more members of C-SPAN's board of directors listed below. Insist, courteously but firmly, that they take action in the face of the dereliction of C-SPAN senior staff.

                    • Note that the network, which is intended as a public service for Americans supposedly bringing an unfiltered view of Washington political activity and thereby enhancing the democratic process, has instead become a channel for spreading hatred.

                    • Note that the failure of C-SPAN anchors to cut off anti-Semitic callers is continuously sending a signal such vile attacks on Jews and Israel are normal and acceptable discourse.

                    • Demand the network introduce new policies to end the exploitation of its programs to spread hatred. This should include training the anchors to intervene actively to cut off bigoted anti-Jewish calls – signaling to viewers C-SPAN does not condone such expressions of ethnic/religious hatred.

                    • If C-SPAN staff members do not understand the parameters of anti-Semitic invective, the network must provide training by those who do.

                    • A five or 10 second delay, like those used in radio, should be implemented to enable bigoted callers to be screened and disallowed.

                    C-SPAN staff has refused to discuss any of this or to end the abuses. It's now up to C-SPAN board members. Here is their contact info:

                    Robert Miron, Chairman of the Board, President
                    Advance/Newhouse Communications
                    robert.miron@mybrighthouse.com
                    Tel: 315-463-7675

                    Stephen B. Burke
                    President, Comcast Cable Communications
                    steve_burke@cable.comcast.com
                    215-665-1700

                    Allan J. Block
                    Chairman, Block Communications Inc
                    ablock@blockcommunications.com
                    Tel: 419-724-6212

                    Rocco B. Commisso
                    Chairman and CEO, Mediacom LLC
                    rcommisso@mediacomcc.com
                    Tel: 845-695-2634

                    David J. Keefe
                    CEO Atlantic Broadband
                    dkeefe@atlanticbb.com
                    Tel: 617-786-8800

                    Jerry Kent
                    Chairman and CEO, Suddenlink Communications
                    jerry.kent@suddenlink.com
                    Tel: 314-315-9314

                    Thomas O. Might
                    President and CEO, Cable One

                    Send email to assistant Sherry Harms
                    sherry.harms@cableone.biz
                    Tel: 602-364-6000

                    Tom Rutledge
                    CEO, Cablevision Systems Corporation
                    trutledge@cablevision.com
                    Tel: 516-803-1110

                    Neil Smit
                    President and CEO, Charter Communications
                    neil.smit@chartercom.com
                    Tel: 314-543-2305

                    Amy Tykeson
                    President & CEO, BendBroadband
                    atykeson@bendbroadband.com
                    Tel: 541-388-5820

                    Landel C. Hobbs, COO
                    Time Warner Cable
                    60 Columbus Circle
                    New York, NY 10023
                    212-364-8200

                    • Please send blind copies (bcc) to letters@camera.org

                    •  Ugh those idiots..... (0+ / 0-)

                      it probably won't add up to much though. They are doing what any other group does. This is no different.

                      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:03:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  CAMERA is very good at propaganda (0+ / 0-)

                        They have been doing this since 82.  Do I have to post the gloating email I received about the 50 op-ed pieces CAMERA members published during castlead?

                        As a person who appreciates propaganda.  I can say that CAMERA is one of the most effective grass roots propaganda outlets in the country.  

                        •  They are good at what they do (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          General Choomin

                          but so are a lot of people. I guess I just don't think they are all that important. I mean Shalom Achshav gloats how they are a factor in Israel but really they are not too much of one. Everyone self-promotes it is seeing through the B.S.

                          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:30:05 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  If a moderator finds the content i published (0+ / 0-)

                      such as the numbers or names.  Please edit them out.  I do not wish to break the rules by producing the entirety of the CAMERA email to the general public.

                •  one of their (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  General Choomin

                  offshoots, FLAME has almost singlehandidly shut down a little local paper here, and bludgoned the daily planet in berkeley. whem their advertisers/owners didn't capitulate it landed on in the nyt. they are connected. the article pulled on of these'maybe she learned on her fathers knee' anti semite insinuation slanders. and most of this was a result of publishing letters to the editor.

  •  "But then they start to fucking mitigate..." (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sofia, volleyboy1

    Israeli politics, like our own, continue to convince me that "Deadwood" was the best examination of society and government of my lifetime.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:11:01 PM PST

  •  Israel has quite legitimate security concerns (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anaxiamander

    How can those be addressed, without infringing on the sovereignty of the new Palestinians State?

    There is so little trust on either side.  

    Aside from Netanyahu's posturing for continuing the occupation on the basis of security concerns, underlying that is a real security issue.  

    What is the fix?

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:17:42 PM PST

    •  Agreed but (3+ / 0-)

      now Israel has to work a deal and trust. The thing is that if that trust is betrayed they have the military to enforce a solution and the Palestinians know this. But they are going to have to take the chance - it's that or a possible internal disaster. Something has to give.

      I think in the end they would be able to make Peace. I believe - if the occupation ends (and I mean truly ends) the Palestinians will not jeopardize their existence. If they do they will be shit out of luck - but I am betting they will do the smart thing.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:23:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well ... (0+ / 0-)

        I believe - if the occupation ends (and I mean truly ends) the Palestinians will not jeopardize their existence. If they do they will be shit out of luck - but I am betting they will do the smart thing.

        You mean, if Israel would just lift any blockade of Gaza and leave Gaza alone, then Gaza would leave Israel alone? Are you absolutely sure about that, or only quite sure?

        Enlightenment and Responsibility ...

        by anaxiamander on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:54:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually about Gaza I am not sure at all (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica, anaxiamander

          but they should lift the blockade on humanitarian goods. I don't agree with totally lifting the blockade on Gaza - I wouldn't as long as Hamas is there - but they need to lift the blockade on humanitarian goods and students and subject that international inspections.

          I am referring to the West Bank in the comment above.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:00:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's my hope also (3+ / 0-)

        Any new Palestinian state has more to gain by economic and security cooperation with Israel than any other alternative

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:58:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Sometimes you have to just suck it up (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sofia, Terra Mystica, volleyboy1

      And take the risk.  The truth of the matter is, state of the art rockets and artillery are capable of reaching Israeli territory, even Tel Aviv, from east of the Jordan River. The first Gulf War proved that, with even the fairly crude scud missiles Iraq fired hitting Tel Aviv.  So essentially, you have to just take the risk, and work towards making a peace agreement durable.  

      It's not like Israel doesn't have the capability to retaliate in force.

      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:51:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  important issues, thanks for the diary (7+ / 0-)

    It is time for the US to adopt a tough tone and to use tough language, in public and private, with all parties

    the problem i have with this is, what if it doesn't work? no pain no gain?

    the US has other forms of leverage which it can to bring to bear.  This includes diplomatic signals of displeasure and shifts in tone on sensitive policy areas.  The Obama Administration also has the ability to impose real costs on the parties, without cutting US assistance, both with and without Congressional approval. The Obama Administration should make a comprehensive assessment of its leverage options vis-à-vis all parties, and it should make clear to the parties that it is ready to use this leverage, if required.

    what are the real costs on the parties, without cutting US assistance....without Congressional approval? any ideas?

    because i have serious doubt about congressional approval for any pressure towards israel. this is going to take more than tone or diplomatic signals of displeasure.

    Moreover, the status quo - whereby Israel controls the lives of millions of Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza - jeopardizes Israel's viability as a Jewish and democratic state.

    reminds me of gaza mathematics from the new blog promised land.  the more we know the worse it looks.

    Let’s take the best day of the month, according to the IDF. That was Jan 13, in which 171 trucks crossed the border into Gaza. That’s 171 trucks for 1.5 million people, or one truck for 9,075 people (1,551,859 divided by 171). Now imagine having to feed, give clothing and supply heating and power to 9,075 people – like the population of a not so small US town – with a single truck.

    •  Relieving the Gaza humanitarian crisis (4+ / 0-)

      must be a priority.  There is no meaningful strategic objective that argues for its continuation

      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

      by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:20:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ususally (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eiron

        when i think about gaza it is wrt the effects of what the humanitarian disatster means for gazans. but for israel it is the PR nightmare d'jour..more than any one thing about this occupation. it boggles my mind, the current investment towards making it even more secure, tightening the noose. not speaking only of the new rafah electronic monitoring wall and prevention of much needed relief thru those tunnels, but also new regulations re clamping down of cash flow into gaza. 80% unemployment and they are clamping down even more.

        Itamar Eichner, Yediot, January 20 2010

        Israeli officials suspect that representatives of international organizations used their cars to bring millions of dollars into the Gaza Strip, taking advantage of their immunity. As a result, a decision has been made to intensify law enforcement regarding money laundering at the Erez border crossing in order to prevent the massive transfer of large amounts of cash to Gaza.

        Recently, the Customs Authority instituted an obligation to report any sum of money greater than NIS 90,000 that is brought into the Gaza Strip in order to prevent a situation in which some of the money aids terrorism. Because most of the people who enter Gaza by car through the Erez border crossing are diplomats and employees of international organizations, a multi-party discussion was held at the Foreign Ministry several days ago about how to minimize the chances of confrontations and diplomatic incidents.

        the foreign ministry's job is never done.

        •  My biggest concern (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zannie

          is how it affects our (the US) security posture

          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

          by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 03:59:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  your biggest concern for what? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eiron

            not the gaza humanitarian crisis? you mean israels PR nightmare or the blockade? you mean the possibility of reprecussions ending up on our shores? terror attacks? my biggest concern re gaza  is the suffering  gazans. right now it is pouring out here in marin and i can't help thinking of the people living in tents and ruins cold and shivering and hungry. i'm not really thinking about US security when i think of gaza.

            •  That's where we differ (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zannie, Celtic Merlin

              My biggest concern, professionally,  is US national interests and national security.  I'll leave the moral dimensions of the matter to other experts.

              Personally, in my view, the suffering in Gaza is an abomination for people of conscience.  It is preventable, it is futile, and it is wrong.

              But, in my view,  it is the national security considerations that should prompt US national security apparatus action to relieve the suffering in Gaza, or at least not be complicit in it. They are clear and unambiguous.  Moraity is subjective and can be argued, but not the US interests issue

              Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

              by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:38:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Man, not a lot of I/P commentary today (4+ / 0-)

    I wonder what happened - two diaries and 43 comments between them.... we must be losing our edge.

    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:13:42 PM PST

  •  Maybe we could prevail (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Terra Mystica

    on Israel to accept our aid denominated in dollars, not Euro's?

    Yeesh, how did that pass?

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:25:19 PM PST

  •  Netanyahu outbids himself (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie

    This gem falls from his lips to coincide with the arrival of the American envoy whose job it is to try to get negotiations restarted.  It can only be intended to sabotage this mission, because the Palestinians are not about to negotiate with the thieves of their land conditions under which they might remain. And in light of Netanyahu's earlier statements that substantive relief for the Palestinians must await the termination of Iran's nuclear program and the frustration of its rising regional influence, this statement says, "The West Bank will be ours forever."

    No on will help the Palestinians, who now have to decide whether they will live like serfs under the boots of the settlers or make the political and economic cost of occupation unbearable.

    Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car, and his hat is made in China. © 2009 All Rights Reserved

    by oblomov on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:30:17 PM PST

    •  You better hope the U.S. does (0+ / 0-)

      because if the Palestinians go back to a "military solution" (bombs and terror) they will get crushed and the West Bank occupation will not be an issue.

      Then we are all screwed - because the bombs will start falling if that happens.

      But yes Bibi outbid himself here and probably screwed the pooch. He is now going to fully risk American Jewish support if the Palestinians keep this peaceful (as they have done in the West Bank). If that stays (though some would be frustrated) it would pretty much destroy American support for Israel's occupation.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:36:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  West Bank occupation is slated for permanency (0+ / 0-)

        by the Israelis-  that is the only sense in which the occupation is not an issue.

        The Palestinians need to help themselves because nobody else will.

        American Jews are not about to make a difference. Only scenes reminiscent of Ghandi or MLK, where the Palestinians are being attacked by dogs, beaten, fire-hosed, and shot dead will get the people's attention here in the US, and even then there may not be the political will, or even the ability, to do anything about it.

        Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car, and his hat is made in China. © 2009 All Rights Reserved

        by oblomov on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:46:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  When you say Palestinians have to help (0+ / 0-)

          themselves? What do you suggest?

          Don't discount American Jews or Americans in general. But if you think a bombing here or there will help you are sorely mistaken. Because if that happens you will lose everything and everyone. My support for Peace Now and Meretz comes in total from the fact that in the West Bank the Palestinians have used peaceful resistance and even during Gaza the W.B. stayed calm. That to me tells me the Israelis can trust the Palestinians on their border. But if the attacks start again - my position changes. The thing is slowly but surely the Palestinians in the West Bank are proving their point. If they keep this up just watch what they can acheive.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:53:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "That to me tells me the Israelis can trust (0+ / 0-)

            the Palestinians on their [Western] border."

            Oh, I agree.  But if, by arrogating to itself a toxic negotiating position outrageous on its face ("Hey, boys, we get to keep as much of your land as we need to make sure you're not gonna be dangerous to us"), Israel prevents negotiations, then what?

            Do you expect the Palestinians to suffer thieves occupying their land forever? I guess you have that covered with "slowly but surely."  Well, "slowly but surely" the state of Israel is stealing their land, filling it with armed settler thugs who ruin much of the useful land in the West Bank that they do not physically occupy, while you wait for a bomb or a shooting-- I should specify a Palestinian bomb or shooting, since the Israeli settlers have free rein to do such things on the West Bank now.

            I once had hopes otherwise, but now American Jews will not put their collective weight behind the Palestinians.  If you think they will, you misjudge the politics of this country and of its Jewish citizens.

            BTW, this is the second time in as many posts that you have suggested I am contemplating violence by the Palestinians as a fruitful part of their strategy.  I have said nothing suggesting that, and in fact have expressly referred to nonviolent actions.  Why do you keep bringing that up?

            Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car, and his hat is made in China. © 2009 All Rights Reserved

            by oblomov on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:03:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well this: (0+ / 0-)

              Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:08:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Dammit I hit the enter button to soon. (0+ / 0-)

                This:

                I once had hopes otherwise, but now American Jews will not put their collective weight behind the Palestinians.  If you think they will, you misjudge the politics of this country and of its Jewish citizens.

                Being Jewish, a supporter of Israel, and a supporter of President Obama gives me a tad of insight into this. I think you might be wrong here.

                BTW, this is the second time in as many posts that you have suggested I am contemplating violence by the Palestinians as a fruitful part of their strategy.  I have said nothing suggesting that, and in fact have expressly referred to nonviolent actions.  Why do you keep bringing that up?

                I asked what you meant that was all.

                And I was making the point that violence won't help that was all - I asked point blank what you advocated as a course of action. I am curious as to what you think.

                Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:14:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Netanyahu's best bet, strategically. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, Celtic Merlin, volleyboy1

        is to trigger another Intifada.  It worked for Sharon, bought some time.....It seems he's moving that way.

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:51:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep you are right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza

          if he triggers another intifada it's all over. Hamas wants this too - they want clear battle lines.

          I agree with this assessment. But this is not a good thing for Israel in the long run. Unfortunately for Israel, Netanyahu and Leiberman are not thinking long term.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:58:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Sadly, he seems to be trying - tho halfheartedly. (0+ / 0-)

          Why else would he propose surrounding the West Bank with IDF?  That certainly wasn't meant to piss off the Gazans.

          Is it my imagination or do ALL right-wingers just suck out loud?

          Celtic Merlin
          Carlinist

          Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

          by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:31:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  NO they do...... they really do (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Celtic Merlin

            American or Israeli - they blow dogs. Sorry but that is really how I feel right now especially after last night in Mass.

            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:33:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They blow dogs? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1

              I wouldn't disagree with that.  But, I was thinking more along the lines of Army mules.  Then again, I can be a sick little fukker.  :0)

              And while I am disgusted with most of the population of Mass., I have to lay about half of the blame for that disaster at the feet of the Mass. Dem Machine.  They promoted a cheesy candidate to begin with, who wasn't supported well because of that, then sat by with bowls of popcorn and watched her fail miserably.  They ended up with a tea-bagger in Teddy's seat.  The shame of it.  That entire state is in need of some intense penance.  Perhaps we can convince them to flog themselves every weekend until they have the chance to correct their stupid error.

              Celtic Merlin
              Carlinist

              Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

              by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:59:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  In his mind (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, Celtic Merlin

            Gaza is not part of a future Palestinian state, it is a hostile enemy territory.  

            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

            by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:46:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, yes. Hence the siege. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, Eiron, Captain C

              Benny is a dick, but at least we can say that we didn't elect him.  Bush is in our past, fading away like a tumbleweed in the rearview mirror.  Israel has this prick, plus their own Lieberman (yep we got one of those assholes too), and a few others that they're stuck with until Zeus knows when.

              And while Hamas are assholes (Hamassholes?), I'm wondering how soft their support would become if Israel started treating the people in that prison camp the way they'd like to be treated.  You know, humanely.  Generously, even.  Let the people who elected Hamas know that they can change their minds instead of hardening their hearts against all things Israeli.  Just a silly thought.

              Celtic Merlin
              Carlinist

              Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

              by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 06:11:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That makes sense but actually if Israel (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Celtic Merlin

                did that (which they should because it is the right thing to do), Hamas would claim victory in their steadfast resistance and Israel would be screwed. The only for Israel to do it would be a massive airlift in with Israelis handing out supplies to people and Israeli trucks visibly helping carry supplies.

                That might do the trick.

                Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 06:21:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That was what I had in mind. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza, volleyboy1

                  Food, clothing, medical supplies, even (gasp!) cement flooding the place.  Dunno how safe the IDF would be handing out these things in person, though.  Perhaps having the UN distribute all of this stuff would be better.  Every box, bag, and container would have a Star of David on it to designate "country of origin" and dump this stuff on them in such quantity that Hamas couldn't even begin to stop it.  Drop crates by parachute.  Totally undermine Hamas position with kindness.  What a concept, huh?

                  Folks might begin to get the idea that maybe Israel isn't the evil bunch of jerks that Hamas claims they are.  The thing is that once it gets started, it can't stop until Gaza is back on its feet economically or the whole thing falls apart.  About a year or two.

                  Celtic Merlin
                  Carlinist

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 06:36:33 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yep that would be a great call (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Celtic Merlin

                    but.. everyone in the area from the rightwing to Hamas are too dumb to figure it out.

                    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 06:47:39 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  They're blind, the lot of them. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      volleyboy1

                      Blinded by hatred and fear.

                      If the US could step on in there and send a carrier task force to break the blockade and inundate Gaza with good stuff - I'd have no problem with it.  We're already doing exactly that for Haiti.  Hell, we could rebuild the airport and get that shit flown in instead of shipped.  Either way, what's the downside?

                      I've heard that there's something on the order of 4.5 Billion in aid to Gaza already pledged by various countries.  We could simply facilitate the movement of that aid.  Nobody loses.  Except Hamas and their Israeli counterparts.

                      Celtic Merlin
                      Carlinist

                      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                      by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:04:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  heck (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, Celtic Merlin

                open the ports and break the black market, that would loosen Hamas influence.

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 06:33:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks volley.. (5+ / 0-)

    ..good diary.  I came across an interview with Sari Nusseibeh,  a Palestinain intellectual and long time supporter of the two state solution, and co-author of the The Ayalon-Nusseibeh Plan, i.e., The People's Choice.

    He's finally come to the conclusion that the two state solution has likely become impossible to acheive, and one state is inevitable, but he holds out one last hope that he articulated in a letter to Obama and Mitchell:

    The latest plan I have proposed is a letter I sent six months ago to Obama and George Mitchell. I suggested they should immediately stop the negotiations, which have become useless; all the issues have been more or less settled, only the unsolvable points remain. Instead, the United States should propose its own solution to the remaining problems. Each side would put forward this plan to its own people in a referendum. The vote would take place on the same day, and the result would be conditional upon the acceptance of the other party.

    I do think this is a good idea, not that I think the Obama admin will do it, or has the political capital to do it.  

    •  I agree with this as well. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      livosh1, Captain C

      I think though that the Two State solution in one way or another will exist - I just don't think the Israeli Likud coalition or to be honest the Hamas leadership have any desire to see it happen. But putting a referendum to all the people in the area will solve it one way or another. Then we can either get on with the war that would happen OR more likely - we can get on with the Peace that would benefit both sides.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:39:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1

        ..I don't agree that there has to be a war.   It could finally just come to Israel deciding somewhere down the road the apartheid situation can't be upheld, and it.s become impossible to implement a two state solution, so all it can do is formally annex the territories.  

        •  I can't see any other way (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          livosh1

          if they Annex the territories they will "cleanse" them. I believe what they will do is simply unilaterally withdraw and the Palestinians will get a shitty deal. Then they can decide how they want to roll this. I think something like Olmerts plan eventually will be what happens - which sucks for the Palestinians.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:55:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well.. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, volleyboy1

            ..I'm not so sure of that.  Also a unilateral withdrawal would only be partial; Israel would still control large swaths of the WB.  So the occupation and Apartheid conditions would continue; it wouldn't be any type of "deal".  Palestinians will just reject it.

            That said, I certainly don't have any type of crystal ball, none of  us do.

            •  Well no you misunderstand when I say unilateral (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              livosh1, sofia, Eiron

              the conditions won't exist because they will simply cut out the parts that have Palestinians in them proabably around the Olmert lines (although without the territory that Olmert would have swapped) and then you have Gaza Lite. The Palestinians would reject it but - what could they do about it?

              Of course this would make Israel and international pariah on standing with North Korea and Myanmar but that is the course they are heading for.

              I mean you are right in the sense that this would suck but if this isn't negotiated this is where it is heading.

              Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 05:41:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Hey btw - what happened to Moon (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    canadian gal

    I heard he got banned - is that true?

    Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:00:52 PM PST

    •  looks like it... (0+ / 0-)

      a shame really since i found his voice, at times, distinct, interesting and always amusing.

      seems he crossed a line that warranted it though.

      "I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

      by canadian gal on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:07:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, it appears that the moonie has set . . . (0+ / 0-)

      . . .for the final time.

      Beyond that, I have no comment.

      Celtic Merlin
      Carlinist

      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

      by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:11:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right I know that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        canadian gal

        but does anyone know what happened and why. I am curious.

        Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

        by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:15:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  here... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sofia, volleyboy1

          "I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:24:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  From what I could gather out of the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          . . . rather disjointed discussion/postmortem, moonie got bounced for sockpuppetry and the outing of the user "Bouwerie Boy".  It seems that taylormattd and some other folks aren't very happy with moonie either over his antics.

          Also, there was a reference to some rather nasty comments moonie made to Avila and sofia, but I have no details about any of it.

          I saw moonie challenge people to take their evidence against him to MB.  It seems that two folks did and he's outtahere.

          Celtic Merlin
          Carlinist

          Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

          by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:30:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks folks I missed the part about Bouwerie (0+ / 0-)

            Boy - let me look again... What does he mean he "outed BB"?

            Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 07:42:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I believe that it means (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, sofia, volleyboy1, canadian gal

              that he revealed real-life info about BB.  Things like real name, address, etc.  That, to me, is a very serious transgression.  It's one thing for you to tell me who you are.  It's something else for moonie to tell the planet who you are in a diary.

              That is what I believe an "outing" to be.

              Celtic Merlin
              Carlinist

              Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

              by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 08:32:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh yeah that is a "no-no" (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, sofia, Celtic Merlin

                That would be in the realm of being a complete ass not to mention well... just leave it at being a complete ass.

                Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 08:40:29 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Here. Straight from sofia - one of his targets. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza, sofia, volleyboy1

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 09:27:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah... (0+ / 0-)

                  We, as a community, really need to get together against 'outing'.  There are a few members of these posts who are very open about who they are.  A few post their real names.  A few others post videos of themselves with their names printed below them when they talk.  Others give details so specific (e.g. I run X organization) that its pretty obvious who they are.  For the vast majority of us, however, outing is mortifying.

                  There's almost nothing online I can't handle.  I know sofia's a woman, and might have greater sensitivity, but she's a big girl and can handle sexist and sexually explicit posts and still be able to sleep at night.  We can all handle sockpuppets and still sleep at night.  Hell, I can handle people calling Jews fascists who control the world and stuff and still sleep at night.  These are all words behind an anonymous screen and while some of this is bannable, there are no real world consequences.  Words can hurt--but they don't hurt that much.

                  Outing does have real world consequences.  It is the ultimate online 'sin'.  

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 06:17:00 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  2 state solution/your comrade? (0+ / 0-)

    I have a new mantra: Two State Solution Needed for U.S. and Israel. I’m going to keep repeating it till I’m blue-and-white in the face. (Get it?) Where do our borders stop? Where does our sovereignty blur away into Israelness? Who’s the loyal opposition, and where’s its loyalty? Haaretz: Obama’s lost Senate seat is a victory for Netanyahu

    source

    maybe it's worth joining forces w/some non zionists if imporatnt goals you share are aligned. that could included supporting non violent tactics that might actually work (bds).

    •  oh shit (0+ / 0-)

      i just realized i posted this twice..

    •  Honestly zannie - I can't see joining forces (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JNEREBEL

      with non-zionists over anything. Our goals are too different and in the end we would still have to fight it out. No, I don't see it happening for any of us. Sorry.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 09:00:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ???? (0+ / 0-)

        well phil is not a zionist and he's all for working towards a 2 state solution..i am not a zionist either. i am much more interested in finding an actual  workable solution than refusing to compromise over an ideology.

        it's kind of nuts to be insistant that everyone in the world is supposed to believe jews need their own homeland. what if every religious group started acting/thinking like that? like i have said before i can be down w/it if its workable, but not if it means the constant suppression of another people. phil has always been on the 2 state bandwagon as far as i know, like myself..probably  (i can't speak for him) not because he believes jews need their own country at any cost, but because it's possibly the fastest easiest way to peace and safety. but there is nothing wrong with believing in an ideal all people can live together in peace. this is completely natural and the idea you could not imagine ever joining forces w/people who believe in an ideology of a country of equal rights and freedom for all that doesn't split hairs over demographics seems absurd. it's not like all or most non zionists are intolerant of zionists, it just isn't our belief system.

        i mean look at finkelstien..he's not a zionist but at the same time he wasn't willing to require an implied commitment to the right of return for all participant of the gaza freedom march, which was his idea. he wanted it to be for an end to the blockade and perhaps he was more interested for to be inclusive of the global community who were supportive of ending the blockade than he was of endorsing the commitment of the civil society of palestine. whether this is acurate i don't know nor whether i agree with this is beside the point but it lends to the idea there are lots of people w/a range of ideas who want peace and i think when people divide themselves over ideology instead of finding ways to join forces for ideals held in common we loose strength.

        what if i thought like you did in this regard and refused to join forces w/any zionists because i am not a zionist??? even if both myself and zionists would break bread over a 2 state solution?? what if i said

        I can't see joining forces (1+ / 0-)
        with zionists over anything.

        helllo? this reminds me of the very first argument we had. after much back and forth you asked me point blank where i stood wrt a 2 state solution. i told you i would be totally down with it and you said we probably agreed w/more than we disagreed.

        so what i i think it is quite possible that window has closed. so what if i think we already have a defacto 1 apartheid state and there is a strong likelihood equality will eventually come to that state way before the forces on both sides agree over 2 states , and i would be supportive of that?

        when all zionists hear is 'that means i support the destruction of israel' its just like closing a door. i want a solution of peace and safety now more than i want any ideal. can you say that? don't reject potential allies because you don't always share the same ideological goals when the stakes are so high. not when the worst case scenario ( wwe total destruction) is not off the table.

        . Our goals are too different and in the end we would still have to fight it out

        that is not a certainty at all. if 2 states came about many and most non zionists would be quite happy and willing and supportive for zionists and israel to live peacefully in its confined borders next to a free palestinina state. when some zionist will never ever be satisfied within confined borders of israel if it doesn't include the west bank (and possibly beyond) or a permanent presence status (as bibi has mentioned) w/in the west bank..you may in fact have more in common w/many non zionists than you do w/the kind of zionist who will never give up on a greater israel. what threatens us more? us, meaning all of us? i probably have more in common with you than i do with an anti zionist who would never ever compromise and accept 2 states

        fyi, non zionism is not in itself a goal. just as being a non vegetarian is not a goal. it can be simply someone who doesn't believe in the imperative jews have a state where they remain the majority. it doesn't mean i would object to it if it could live peacefully with its neighbors.

        don't be so stubborn. find other people whose main objectives align w/yours and open the tent. ask yourself, 'is my main objective peace in the region' or is my main objective a jewish state  (even if that state has to maintain a pharia presence that includes the constant oppression of freedom for another people). there is a strong likelihood you might get to have a jewish state and peace in the region faster by joining with people who also share the objective of peace in the region who do not happen to be zionists. you ask me to be supportive of zionists who work for 2 states and balk at joining forces w/ non zionists who are supportive of 2 states. it just so happens the non zionists may very well have the best tool, bds. you don't have to join that movement, but if it brings you closer to shared objectives you might consider being more supportive of those who do.

        •  See zannie - I appreciate that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL

          there are a lot of implieds or what nots but, nope if you can't accept that there has to be a Jewish State I can't see us joining forces. Period.

          I can't support anyone who won't support the Jewish people's right to homeland in a state that has a Jewish majority. It just won't happen - you can argue that Norm Finkelstein or Phil Weiss might agree or imply that they agree. Wonderful. Until they DO agree I can't support what they are going for. Non-Zionists can't support two states it goes against the definition of who they are. Zionism simply demands a Jewish State. If you support two states - one a Jewish State and one Palestinian State then you are a Zionist. Period. End of story. If you support a Jewish State you are a Zionist. End of story. If you don't why in the world would I join forces with you.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 11:30:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's nuts (0+ / 0-)

            there are lots of things i am not that i can support others being. i am a non religious person but i can support others being religious as long as it doesn't impose on my life or others. supporting others doesn't imply you hold the same belief system. if that were the case i couldn't support most dem candidates, because we are not aligned on every issue...in the least sometimes you support something out of the reasoning it may be best possible option. besides it doesn't make sense to believe any one people of faith has a 'right' to their own homeland any more than it does to believe it is a right for any religious group. none of the religious people in america have 'rights' to a homeland more than any other.  i would be fine with 2 states, and i would be fine with one. i will choose 2 now because it has a better chance at present, and if that window closes i will support one state. i will not support any option that does not include accomodations for both palestinians and jews to live freely in the region of palestine. that would not be fair at all. anyone who cannot share should leave the region. there is no concievable reason jews  should have any more right to live there than palestinians. i do not recognize any justification whatsoever jews have any rights to any of that region more than palestinians. if jews, israeli and/or zionists expect the support of others who are not zionists they should start considering the rights of others because there are plenty of zionists whose ideology i simply cannot support, ever. i certainly cannot support the kind of racist oppressive zionist reality israel has become. the zionist experiment israel has become after 60 years, if this is the zionist reality we have to look forward to , this more of the same..no i absolutely cannot support that, and i dare say i am not alone. israel better figure out a way to make zionism a hella lot nicer or whatever support i offer will be no more. that would be those who concept of zionism includes the greater israel concept. this reminds me of Gadi Taub in Yediot: It’s the “Zionism of the State” vs. the “Zionism of the Land”.

            Although this is not an enemy army, we are talking about a fundamental clash between two kinds of Zionism, which are incompatible, and therefore we should not make light of the magnitude of the shock that we will undergo before we succeed in dividing the land.  The Zionism of the settlers is a Zionism of the land, while the Zionism that most of us hold is a Zionism of the state.  It is easy to confuse them: The Zionism of Herzl, Ben-Gurion, Weizmann and Jabotinsky is also closely tied to the Land of Israel, whereas the Zionism of the settlers also holds the State of Israel in high regard and is willing to sacrifice a great deal for it.  It is not by chance that the religious settlers volunteer en masse for combat units, and that the spirit of sacrifice on behalf of the collective is a central part of their education.

            Despite this, the difference is central and important, and the rift has only been growing since the 1970s.  As Aviezer Ravitzky observed years ago, in his important book Messianism, Zionism and Jewish Religious Radicalism [originally entitled “The Revealed End and the Jewish State” in Hebrew], the disciples of Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Hacohen heap praises upon the ideal state, while withholding them from the actual government.

            my support is limited to zionists achieving their goals without a heavy burden being paid by others. there is no reason i should put the welfare or wellbeing of jews or israelis before others. no reason whatsoever. and no, i am definetly not a zionist, i just want this whole thing settled once and for all in an amicable way.

            •  Glad you think it is nuts (0+ / 0-)

              Doesn't really matter - though. I will work with what I support. Honestly zannie, you can support whatever you want - Kol Ha'Kvod. Just don't get worked up that I personally won't support any solution that doesn't include a Jewish state. Not sure what is complicated about this. I don't care what Rabbi "I'm an asshole" or anyone like him says - I don't support them either. I don't support the settler vision of Israel at all - but I do support the fact that there has to be a Jewish State.

              I am not sure what is hard for you to understand. You don't need to cut and paste anything or write page long responses. You are not going to convince me of a damn thing. The basic thing you agree there should be a Jewish State in some form or not. If not, we really have nothing to talk about. If so, cool.... then how do we make that happen in a way that is has the best POSSIBLE outcome for all people - It really is simple.

              Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 06:23:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  interesting (0+ / 0-)

                You are not going to convince me of a damn thing.

                it aint over till the fat lady sings. time will tell. bds is very likely the best possible way to get this thing moving. the results might convince you. if the politicians won't do it, who else is there?

                •  The only thing that will (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JNEREBEL

                  convince me is that if the Israelis continue along this path of annexation and occupation. But nothing ever will convince me that there should not be a Jewish Homeland. Nothing.

                  Fuck you (strike) Thank you and have a nice day! - Interceptor7 in one of the funniest diaries yet!

                  by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 10:18:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  I suspect that given (3+ / 0-)

    the Brown win, and the manner in which the Obama administration conducted itself with the Israeli government when it had more momentum and popularity, that none of APN's policy recommendations will not be carried out until after the 2010 elections at the very earliest.

    If the 2010 elections have bad results, then we probably won't see major action on P-I at all. Others have pointed it out and I think it's true, domestic political losses for Obama help Netanyahu.

    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

    by unspeakable on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 08:47:58 AM PST

    •  I think you are underestimating Jewish (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JNEREBEL, capelza

      political support for President Obama and overestimating Jewish effect on the National Political scene. If brings peace to the M.E. He will probably get even more of the Jewish vote than ever. If he can force Israel to the table that will be big. Now this is just an opinion and it is not based on any fact whatsoever - but, being a Jewish American, being an Obama supporter, and being a Zionist... this is what I would like to see. My friends who range from very few hard lefties to mostly moderate Dems. (Clintonistas) and some conservatives are pretty much ALL in the same place.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 09:05:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree, (0+ / 0-)

        but what are the chances that he would do anything that bold at this point or in the near future?

        Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

        by unspeakable on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 10:41:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If he is smart - soon. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL

          President Abbas asked the U.S. to negotiate with Israel on borders. That is an opening that let's him maintain his negotiating position. I think there is only upside with the American Jewish Vote if America can bring peace. And this is the shot.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 11:19:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  not alot (0+ / 0-)

          but there's still a chance.  after the '10 election, there is that next presidential election to consider. it wouldn't surprise me if lots of support dropped off by him not stepping up to the plate and actually making i/p nonprogress have real consequences. and it wouldn't surprise me if lots of support dropped off by him actually following thru and demanding real change. either way its a dangeous road ahead for his reelection, but not as dangerous as the cost to the future of palestine/israel if things keep going in the direction of settler terrorism..

  •  answer please (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes, capelza, Terra Mystica

    i asked this question in my first comment on this diary and got no response. i think it is worth asking it again..

    the US has other forms of leverage which it can to bring to bear.  This includes diplomatic signals of displeasure and shifts in tone on sensitive policy areas. The Obama Administration also has the ability to impose real costs on the parties, without cutting US assistance, both with and without Congressional approval. The Obama Administration should make a comprehensive assessment of its leverage options vis-à-vis all parties, and it should make clear to the parties that it is ready to use this leverage, if required.

    what are the real costs on the parties, without cutting US assistance....without Congressional approval? any ideas?

    i am very curious wrt what kind of hardball they are referencing and why they didn't spell this out?? change of tone is not hardball. how much leverage does the excetutive branch have without congressional approval? that may seem like an odd question to ask after the administration of king cheney but let's get real here.  i'm serious, what exactly does peace now think obama's hardball options are sans congress?

    •  Removal of UN cover in UNSC - not that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes, capelza, Terra Mystica

      this means a lot in real terms honestly but, it is symbolic is possible. But I can't answer for APN I am just a contributor like many others I have no say in policy. Why don't you email them and find out?

      Not being snarky - I would be curious as to what they say.

      Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 08:57:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  thanks (0+ / 0-)

        i wasn't expecting you to be responsible for answering to them, i was just genuinely curious as to what options these might be. Removal of UN cover is a good idea.

        maybe i will email them

        •  Well you did put "answer please" (0+ / 0-)

          so I figured you wanted an answer. Yeah, just email them - and then let us know what they say. I am curious as well.

          Some times you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 09:58:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting diary, VB! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie, Terra Mystica, volleyboy1

    Thanks for generating some substantial discussion on a relevant and timely topic.

    "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

    by Rusty Pipes on Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 02:42:48 PM PST

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site