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If Democrats fail to pass healthcare health insurance reform, they--every last one of them--owns the greatest moral catastrophe of our generation.  

But we've been told politics is a blood sport, so why in the world should we think politicians are motivated by anything other than the next election. They're not, and take it to the bank folks, if Democrats fail to pass "something", they will take the whooping of their lives in November, and the defeat will be richly deserved.

I have an idea, how about all 535 members of Congress (House and Senate) lose their coverage, for themselves and their families, if they fail again on healthcare? You think if these cowards couldn't access healthcare, we'd get something?

This Reconciliation petition hit a nerve. We collected a huge number of signatures over the last couple of day, if you haven't yet signed it, could you take a minute to do so.

PLEASE HELP US FIGHT FOR RECONCILIATION BY SIGNING THIS PETITION!

If the final answer of this president is to come to the rescue of Wall Street, but not American families, we'll all have to decide, whether or not to hold him personally responsible when he comes asking for our money and our vote in 2012.

Here's reality. The Republican Party hasn't had 60 seats since 1911, but somehow it managed to pass the entirety of the "Reagan Revolution" and all the outrages of  George W. Bush without a super majority. In fact, the biggest Senate majority that Mr. Bush ever had was 55 seats. Yet George Bush never wavered on key elements of his agenda to gain bipartisan support.

I'm hearing things from base Democrats that should make the political class tremble. Where I live, people are walking around in shock over the out-of-touch carnival in Washington. Ask them about Obama and the Democrats, they laugh, roll their eyes, and say "not another penny"!

Many are far angrier now, than during the days of Bush. Imagine this. How in the world could Democrats be more outraged now than during the dismal Bush years? Here's how. Maybe we feel just a little bit (oh how can I say this with great diplomacy, conned had.) We did everything and more that was asked of us. And what was promised, healthcare. And where is healthcare today, the most urgent crisis facing this nation?  Dead or on life support?  And who's in charge? Okay, you get it.  

We contributed until we had nothing left, we voted and got out the vote, like robots we repeated silly mantras as if they meant something, "we are the hope we can believe in...fired up, ready to go".  Now? Just walk away from healthcare because a nude model won Ted Kennedy's seat? I keep asking myself, what will historians write?

So what will many base Democrats do--the worker bees of the party?  Oh little things, like work until our fingers are bleeding and support progressives like Arkansas Lieutenant Governor Bill Halter (who I had the pleasure of meeting) over the Neanderthal Blanche Lincoln.  You lose the base workers and the base $$$, and I guess all you have left are the lobbyists and the corporations.

It doesn't have to be this way. The House can pass the Senate bill, with what is being called an immediate fix or patch via a reconciliation process which would ameliorate many of the myriad shortcomings of the Senate bill.

But the news is not encouraging. Some are reporting that any legislation is mortally wounded.

Some people are Paul Krugman supporters, others detractors, but I think there's one thing we might agree on, when Krugman bails, it's basically as significant as when Scotty Brown wins. And for better or worse, Krugman has just about given up on Mr. Obama.

Even more shocking. Are you hearing what I'm hearing? I'm hearing over and over that Congresspeople and Senators are fearing for their own jobs, therefore they may decide to stand down take a pass on healthcare.

Do you get that?  These amoral corrupt politicians are worried about their own jobs, not about the greatest moral collapse of our generation. Ezra Klein seems as outraged about the ongoing lack of leadership from all Democrats, not just Mr. Obama, as I've ever seen him. He had an excellent post on political courage. Ezra calls the notion that Democrats would consider voting against healthcare because it could impact them adversely from an electoral standpoint, "morally shocking". Why?   Here's what Ezra says. He's spot on.

To make a related point, what's particularly appalling about Democrats who voted for the health-care bill abandoning it in the face of electoral danger is that they know, or at least have acted as if they know, the stakes, and that makes their decision morally shocking.

Sen. Jon Kyl believes this to be a bad bill that will do more harm than good. We disagree on that point. But most of the Democrats who voted for this bill do not believe it to be a bad bill. They believes that it is a good, if imperfect, bill that will do basically what it says: Cover more than 30 million people at an acceptable cost, preventing the attendant unnecessary deaths, infirmity, chronic pain, medical bankruptcies and so forth. Which makes abandoning it because it might -- or might not -- slightly reduce their chances of reelection a terrible act.

I always wonder how honest members of Congress are in this internal calculus. Exactly how many lives would a bill need to save, over how many years, and at what cost, for a given senator or representative to judge it worth losing their seat in order to pass it?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/...

We've been sucker punched by a president. And tragically, we have a political system which has proven to lack even a semblance of a moral compass. Crocodile tears for the 45,000 Americans who die every year simply because they don't have access to healthcare, but when it comes to the courage to take difficult votes, they run for the hills.  Shame on this government.

I've tried to be the voice for Americans who are dying before our eyes simply because healthcare in the United States remains a privilege not a right. It's inconceivable to me that Barack Obama can go back to the people waiting on line for healthcare in Kansas City and Little Rock and blame the Republican minority and Scott Brown for his failure to lead, twist arms, do whatever was necessary, to get a decent healthcare bill passed. But I'm not a pollster, just a very outraged American base voter.

And for Democrats who have shown themselves incapable of governing or leading this nation, the 2010 midterm will be the wake up call they refuse to heed now.

PLEASE HELP US FIGHT FOR RECONCILIATION BY SIGNING THIS PETITION!

Originally posted to nyceve on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:21 AM PST.

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  •  Why is the HCR bill so toxic to House Dems? (9+ / 0-)

    That is a rhetorical question of course.

    Politics is like playing Asteroids - You go far enough to the left and you end up on the right. Or vice-versa.

    by Jonze on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:24:41 AM PST

  •  Oh sure we've got problems (10+ / 0-)

    But at least ours are fixable, and perhaps temporary.

    Republicans are riding high in the wake of Scott Brown’s win, talking up an authentic resurgence for their party and a real chance for reclaiming power.

    Don’t bet on it.

    (...)

    Voters "have fallen out of love with the Democrats," said Rep. Adam Putnam (R-Fla.). "They haven’t yet fallen back in love with us."

    •  you are more optimistic than I (5+ / 0-)

      if dems don't pass some semblance of HCR, and the $ floodgates are open to corporate influence, 2010 belongs to the GOP, who ensure that the govt does nothing to improve the economy, which stays non-job producing, and Obama is out come 2012. No one has to fall in love with the GOP for that to happen.

    •  Well, for my money, the best (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elwior, HPrefugee

      boost for Scott Brown came out of Obama's mouth when he said

      "He parked his truck on Wall Street"

      It's probably not what Obama meant, but the idea of a guy who drives a truck taking up a parking space on Wall Street is attractive on many levels--certainly more attractive than Harold helicoptering around.

      Besides, the suggestion that Brown was funded by Wall Street bankers was not quite accurate.  If his support from the club for growth was as reported, he was getting support from the same people in Arkansas who bankrolled the Bushes and Bill Clinton.

      How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

      by hannah on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:53:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I take comfort in Beck's attack on Brown and (0+ / 0-)

      teabaggers going after moderate conservatives. That's not complacency, just a shot of hope.

      He who distinguishes the true savor of food can never be a glutton, he who does not cannot be otherwise. - Thoreau

      by the fan man on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:57:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  And even if it's passed... (15+ / 0-)

    It will be seen as passing a bad bill.  Democrats have been caught in a no win situation.  If they pass it it will be seen as they were pushed and prodded and passed a bill they didn't like and had openly trashed.  

    I don't think this could have been botched any worse.  

    Politics is like playing Asteroids - You go far enough to the left and you end up on the right. Or vice-versa.

    by Jonze on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:27:00 AM PST

  •  when you demoralize your base (34+ / 0-)

    dont be upset when no one votes for you. Thats all I got to say.

    "Corporate America decides which speech is free, and which isn't" Mike Malloy

    by rexymeteorite on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:28:54 AM PST

  •  U know wat, (7+ / 0-)
    Dengre is right.

    Time to walk out now.

    Y'all are just too depressing.

    Chin up for crying out loud.

    Wasn't it last year we were saying that the repubs were a dying breed? U know what they did?

    They fought, and fought.

    They may have won this battle but we better win the war.
    But with these soldiers,...UH !

  •  They Should Just Pass The Damn Biill (5+ / 0-)

    Pelosis Should offer the dems who are not going to vote something they can't refuse.  She should play tough just like the repugs do.  Threaten, whatever.  I don't think it is right, but this is one time this should be done.  The house needs our help.  Democrats need to send a message that if HCR fails they are done.  All the democrats who think the senate billis bad, wait until there is no bill at all.  

    •  Count votes (5+ / 0-)

      Stupak and his closest lacky won't support the Senate bill because there aren't enough coathangers in it.  And Weiner resigned from Congress.  That's 217 votes.  That's one vote short.  Deduct Joseph Cao, who is also kind of Stupak-y when it comes to coathangers, and we're at 216.  That's before you consider any other votes that might peel off.

      Now, where do you backfill the other votes?  Blue Dogs and Kucinich, presumably.  Good luck.

      Sure they should just pass it.  But when a bill is this close, all it takes is a few votes for coathangers and a few votes for Aetna, and here you are.

      •  You are forgetting the UNIONS (4+ / 0-)

        They will NOT be getting their exemption from paying the 'cadillac tax' and that is one reason why it won't pass.
        The final straw for the American people was three pronged:

        1. The Nebraska deal.
        1. The Louisiana deal.
        1. The Union deal.

        You can't pass a healthcare bill that forces young people to purchase something they don't want and dont want to pay for and then exempt ENTIRE states and the Unions and not expect people to see this as "business as usual".
        Besides being grossly unfair!

        A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The USA for an amount of "up to and including my life." - unknown

        by AJsMom on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:38:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Union omission deliberate (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timothy J, jamesia, Onomastic

          Their patrons in Congress have played pretty fair in this process for the most part and they don't belong in a post with coathangers and insurance companies.  

          PS. The only way the excise tax works like it's supposed to in the economists' little models is if there's a refundable income tax offset for lower and middle income workers (i.e., shifting money from a benefit that has to go on health care to general expenditure that you can choose what you want it to go on) and without that I can fully understand why pro-labor members of Congress will have extreme difficulty voting for the legislation.  Me, I'd probably pinch my nose and vote for it, just to take that first step that we seem to have so much difficulty taking in this country, and then amend at every opportunity.

          •  Please name an insurance company (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            that is against this bill.
            As for the "coathangers", people who are morally against abortions and don't want their tax dollars going to pay for it have a right to that point of view.
            Name calling, instead of trying to find common ground, is another reason why this bill will not pass.

            Unions DID get a special deal from the White House via exemption....THAT is what looks fishy to the American people.

            When certain factions or states get special deals....it appears to be BUSINESS AS USUAL...something Obama specifically said he would change.

            A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The USA for an amount of "up to and including my life." - unknown

            by AJsMom on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:51:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  All of them. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cedwyn, AJsMom

              from AHIP, the American Health Insurance Plans, the organization that represents the health insurance industry nationwide:

              Providing all Americans with health care coverage is crucial for the country. Health plans support legislative changes that would provide guaranteed access to all Americans, with no pre-existing condition limitations and no health-status-based premiums. These reforms are essential to giving all Americans greater peace of mind and health security.

              “At the same time, specific provisions in this legislation will increase, rather than decrease, health care costs; reduce coverage options; and disrupt existing coverage for families, seniors and small businesses – particularly between now and when the legislation is fully implemented in 2014.

              “These issues can and should be addressed if health care reform is going to fulfill the promise of providing all Americans with guaranteed access to affordable, portable health care coverage.”

              The Cake is a Lie.

              by rebus on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:24:16 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  $1.4M a DAY (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rebus, AJsMom

              spent by the healthcare industry for a while there in early 2009 -- that's insurance companies, et. alia, lobbying AGAINST HCR not FOR -- a jump in spending of 41% in the first half of 2009 over the previous year's spending.

              Notice: that's against health care reform.  They lobbied for the boon to the insurance industry that is in the present version of the bill -- forcing people to purchase insurance.

              From private companies.

              America's healthcare industry has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to block the introduction of public medical insurance and stall other reforms promised by Barack Obama. The campaign against the president has been waged in part through substantial donations to key politicians.
              (snip)
              The industry and interest groups have spent $380m (£238m) in recent months influencing healthcare legislation through lobbying, advertising and in direct political contributions to members of Congress. The largest contribution, totalling close to $1.5m, has gone to the chairman of the senate committee drafting the new law.

              Baucus took in $1.5M alone, plus

              At Baucus's side, drafting much of the wording of the reform, was Liz Fowler, a senate committee counsel whose last position was vice-president of the country's largest health insurer, Wellpoint, which stands to be a principal beneficiary of the new law.

              Health companies and their lobby firms also recruit heavily among congressional staffers as a means of maintaining influence. Guardian

              "Give me but one firm spot to stand, and I will move the earth." -- Archimedes

              by Limelite on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:51:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  It's Democracy. (0+ / 0-)

              Taxes are collected and spent according the the majority, not a minority's morality.

        •  What you call the "Union deal" (12+ / 0-)

          ...was a general exemption of people with Cadillac plans and incomes under $200,000.

          The Lousiana deal was money for Katrina relief

          The Nebraska deal was the federalization of Nebraska's Medicaid costs, a good policy that should extend to all states.

          The biggest problem with the Senate bill was it's individual mandates without meaningful cost control.

          And yes, in both Houses of Congress, it was "business as usual".  But not all members of the House or Senators are equally complicit in this "business as usual".  Key awards for craveness go to:

          Mike Ross (D-AR)
          Bart Stupak (D-MI)
          Kent Conrad (D-ND)
          Ben Nelson (D-NE)
          Max Baucus (D-MT)
          Evan Bayh (D-IN)

          and of course the queen of craveness himself:

          Joe Liberman (I-CT)

          ...and there were a significant number in the supporting cast.

          50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

          by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:49:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It was a general exemption for (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            people in unions ONLY.
            It doesn't apply to everyone else.

            Regardless of why the deals were made with Louisiana and Nebraska...it APPEARS to the American people that those votes were bought.

            Doesn't matter what it actually is, what matters is what people THINK it is.
            And no one has explained this.

            A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The USA for an amount of "up to and including my life." - unknown

            by AJsMom on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:54:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The votes that were bought (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cedwyn, jamesia, Onomastic

              ...weren't the ones paid for with these deals.

              The votes that were bought were for obstruction and those are paid for with campaign cash.

              The American people better look at the Republican campaign cash coffers to see how much obstruction cost the insurance and healthcare industries.

              And contrary to your impression, it does apply to everyone else who has a high-premium plan.  There are just fewer of them outside unions because they've not had the equivalent power of unions negotiating them with their employers.  And union members often had to give wage cuts in order to get those better health care plans.

              If it passes, it very much depends on what it is.  Passing a good bill (and the Senate bill is crap and I am not advocating passing it) will do more to clarify the debate than not passing anything.  When people actually see what they are getting it removes the doubt about who has been lying to them.

              50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

              by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:13:45 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Wish I could rec this more than once. n/t (0+ / 0-)

            Grab a mop or shut up, dammit!

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:00:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Weiner did not resign... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timothy J, elwior, farbuska, Onomastic

        although a different Democratic Representative did.  That error was corrected on the Open Left blog where it was originally stated.

        "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

        by candleglow on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:51:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What do you mean, Weiner resigned from Congress? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timothy J, farbuska

        My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me. Benjamin Disraeli

        by pvmuse on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:52:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wexler, not weiner (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        proud2Bliberal, farbuska
    •  There aren't votes in the House for the Senate (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rick, 0wn, elwior, farbuska

      bill. It has to be passed with a reconciliation bill to fix the Senate bill.

      Dude, you can follow me on Twitter! You can also join my Facebook group, PublicOptionNow

      by slinkerwink on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:01:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  umm . . . (6+ / 0-)

    if many our politicians are amoral and corrupt, as you say, what makes you think that a bunch of petitioners will convince them to drastically improve the Senate bill via reconciliation?  We should just as soon expect them to make the Senate bill even worse.

    Unless, of course, that petition is associated with huge sums of money.

    •  Many does not equal all (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      farbuska

      ...and even the corrupt ones need votes to get re-elected.

      People power trumps money power every time as long as the people don't let the money blind them to the power they have to change things.

      50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

      by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:51:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, no, the corrupt ones (4+ / 0-)

        don't need to get reelected.

        And they know it.  That's why they don't care all that much.

        It's precisely the corrupt ones who plan to use their Washington connections to land lucrative lobbyist gigs at the first available opportunity.

        •  And they are going to use those connections... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cedwyn, farbuska, Onomastic

          ...with folks sent to clean up Congress.  That only works if Democrats continue to forget Jesse Unruh's opinion:

          If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics.

          When people let their cynicism become an excuse for not holding politicians accountable, politicians will not be accountable.  And it is the target of lobbying, not the lobbyist who decides how powerful lobbyists are.  And the people can replace those targets every two years if need be.  And don't think that two years in Congress gets you the big bucks on K Street.  Being kicked out in two years poisons your resume.

          50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

          by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:20:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Possibly still true (0+ / 0-)

        but we need to rethink that in light of recent Supreme Court decision.

        We will have to change our game in order to continue to win.

        Grab a mop or shut up, dammit!

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:02:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  the catastrophe is that we no longer believe (8+ / 0-)

    a great number of us summoned everything we had left to try to push back against the turn rightward, against the rise of corporate interests and the consolidation of political power in the hands only of the rich and richest.

    We took our best shot, elected the smartest, most decent, most eloquent person offered.

    It wasn't enough. Maybe, even, it wasn't anything. Maybe it was all just part of the shell game that the freaks on public access TV talk about (dear Lord, I'm about to start thinking the Trilateral Commission amounts to...nah).

    I don't know if the HCR bill is worth a tinker's dam. I'm pretty sure it won't change anything for me, nor for anybody I know. I'm pretty sure it won't make any substantive difference in the way health care is delivered, that it will only shift in relatively small ways who gets paid, and how much.

    I'm pretty sure that government is no longer about governance, if ever it was; I'm pretty sure that government is simply about the exercise of raw power, and about enriching associates.

    And yet, like teacherken writes today, I can't give up. Not quite. Not yet.

    "Good Lord, how can the rich bear to die?" -- Nikos Kazantzakis

    by Shocko from Seattle on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:31:32 AM PST

    •  At this moment... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TampaCPA, Timothy J, farbuska, HPrefugee

      At this moment, I honestly feel this strong need to work to remove all of the Blue Dog and DLC members of the House and Senate.  Even if it means that the seat is lost to the Democratic Party.  I guess I understand why the Republicans have been doing what they have.

      When Lieberman and Nelson played their little stunts on HCR, I just felt that that was one step too far.  Was the last straw.  Kind of hoping that this feeling goes away with a little time.

      •  Not all of the Blue Dogs and New Democrats... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timothy J, Onomastic

        ...acted corruptly or voted the wrong way on health care reform.  A strong progressive showing at the polls might make some come out of their Blue Dog or New Democrat camouflage.  Which they have adopted for locally tactical reasons.

        You have to examine clearly who the sell-outs are.

        50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

        by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:54:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Smart, decent and eloquent (0+ / 0-)

      were not enough  without experience.     Obama   needed to be a senator  for a few more years then maybe a governor  for a while.   Then he might have been ready for this job.

    •  er... (0+ / 0-)

      We took our best shot, elected the smartest, most decent, most eloquent person offered.

      You forgot to add "according to a narrow purity test people like me applied in the spring of 2008."

      There was all kinds of penny wise, pound foolish thinking going in the Obama selection.  It was very much in accord with the political atmosphere of 2007 and 2008.

      But it's 2010 now.

    •  Still unaffordable (2+ / 0-)

      The combination of premiums + deductables + copays is unaffordable even with the bill.  The bill is helpful for people at the Medicaid level or for the upper middle class business owners, but for workers in the age 50 range, the lack of community rating makes things impossible.  People will choose a high deductible plan to get a lower premium, but then will not have the money for the deductible, and hence no health care.

  •  Are you in favor of the HCR w/o a public option? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    amk for obama, Onomastic
  •  Just signed the petition. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timothy J, leonard145b

    Thanks for all the work you do on this.  Even if it's paid, you're doing it to help people, and I thank you for it.

  •  From the land of Ooops (20+ / 0-)

    Insurance companies are now concerned that there will be no legislation and things are only going to get worse. For them and the public. They are not sure where future growth is going to come from and where the cost containment is going to come from without government assistance and regulations. Their biggest fear is that when this come back, and it will,  Washington is gong to be more Draconian or come closer to implementing single payer.

    NYTimes.com

    For insurers, the largest risk may be that without a government-led overhaul, their industry faces an even bleaker future should medical costs and premiums continue to soar, perhaps eventually prompting draconian changes from the government.

    By the time Congress dares to try again to overhaul health care, some analysts predict, the problems with the system might be so acute that Washington might regulate the insurers more heavily than has been considered for the current legislation — or flirt even more with the idea of the federal government becoming directly involved in providing insurance.

    In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof.

    by jsfox on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:34:19 AM PST

  •  If this POS doesn't pass, then at least show (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jahbeez in MI, bvig, Onomastic, peregrinus

    a willingness to come back next year and get parts of it using other means.  And the next year, and the next year...

    Show a generational commitment to change.  Incrementalism makes some sense in that context, and the political ramifications of a bad "now or never - all or nothing" bill can be faded with a sustained and believable long-term commitment.  

    We started this and we need to get it right.  The "this will not come up for another 20 years" (not saying you're saying this) rationale for doing "something, anything, even if it's wrong" is opting for single point failure.

    I guess I don't see the generational commitment true HCR.  There seems to be a generalized "be done with it and move on" approach to this among our ruling class.  I hope I'm wrong.

    "I'm mean in the East, mean in the West. Mean to the people that I like best. ... I push folks down, and I cause train wrecks." Woody Guthrie

    by Terra Mystica on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:37:20 AM PST

  •  It Is Truly Pathetic - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink

    But not accidental.

  •  Hi Eve...I know we don't often agree but, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NearlyNormal, SpecialKinFlag

    I think that congress and most of my friends here in Massachusetts are on the wrong side of history with this bill. I am not sure what version of this legislation needs to be past but if HCR is ababdoned now it will be a very long time before it comes up again!

    •  You know what? That's bullshit! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      smkngman, Jiminy Cricket, notrouble

      if HCR is ababdoned now it will be a very long time before it comes up again!

      My Representative in the House, Jim McDermott (WA-07), has introduced HCR bills in every single session that he has been there, and he will introduce one again next session whether this bill passes or not.

      I have had it up to here with this big lie. We're not going away, and we're not giving up. I don't want to keep hearing this "definition of insanity" bullshit, either. This is not some rhetorical exercise. This is life and death for many of us.

      "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

      by Ivan on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:35:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Massconfusion

        My Representative in the House, Jim McDermott

        This explains a lot.

        I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and in all places...arousing and persuading and reproaching you.-Socrates

        by The Navigator on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:16:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Care to explain that remark? (0+ / 0-)

          Am I supposed to apologize for having an outstanding, long-serving, persistent advocate for health care reform as my Representative? If the rest of them were like Jim we could have had it by now.

          "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

          by Ivan on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:55:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, some public servant (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Massconfusion

            Taking trips to pre-war Iraq paid for by Hussein's intelligence agency.  Accepting campaign contribution from Hussein's allies.

            Ethics violations for leaking illegally recorded telephone calls.

            Yeah, that's a real winner you've got there.

            I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and in all places...arousing and persuading and reproaching you.-Socrates

            by The Navigator on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:12:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Let's talk a year from now... (0+ / 0-)

        If we are both happy then I will agree that my remark is bullshit...

  •  Great post, Eve. (14+ / 0-)

    We keep fighting.  Reconciliation is the only way.

    They could pass the senate bill, fix it with reconcilation and a House bill doing the same, and present both bill to Obama.  He must pledge to veto the senate bill if no reconciliation bill passed.    

    A real deal.

    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

    by TomP on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:39:33 AM PST

    •  Hi Tom, do you think Obama . . . (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, mdgarcia, TomP

      would do anything bold and decisive like pledge to veto the Senate bill if there is no simultaneous fix.

      I wish, but his track record is not where it should be on decisive leadership on healthcare.

      •  I believe in the possibility (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rick, mdgarcia, Predictor

        of change.

        Yes, it's a long  shot, but reconciliation is the pragmatic argument now.  I just was talking with elise about that.  It's the only way to 218 in the House.  The Senate bill will not pass the House without a real deal on reconciliation.

        The "pragmatists" now must choose.  Do they want a bill?  Then they must be pragmatic and accept the improvements made in reconciliation.

        "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

        by TomP on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:46:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Why veto? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic

      Can't President Obama just pledge to not sign the Senate bill until a second bill reaches his desk?  And then sign them both at the same time.  I'm not sure he has to take the step of actually vetoing the bill.

      •  Actually, the Congress has the power to submit (0+ / 0-)

        the bills to the President's desk in whatever order they choose.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:59:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Really? (6+ / 0-)

    If Democrats fail to pass healthcare health insurance reform, they--every last one of them--owns the greatest moral catastrophe of our generation.  

    So standing by during, what, Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda, the slaughter of the Kurds....just to name a few....was, what?  Politics?

    This kind of hyperbole is not helpful, and clearly no one is buying it.  Yes, pass HCR.  But having a doomsday scenario for every issue we care about has caused the American people to tune us out.

    I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and in all places...arousing and persuading and reproaching you.-Socrates

    by The Navigator on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:39:46 AM PST

  •  Such A Relief To See This (6+ / 0-)

    It is such a relief to see this after some of the shameful, head in the sand stuff that's on the rec today.   Great Post!  Thank you.

  •  BTW NycEve (5+ / 0-)

    I don't always agree with you but I ALWAYS enjoy reading your diaries.
    They are well thought out, to the point and they make me think.
    Thanks for posting this one in particular!

    A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The USA for an amount of "up to and including my life." - unknown

    by AJsMom on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:42:27 AM PST

  •  A Double bind (7+ / 0-)

    if Democrats fail to pass "something", they will take the whooping of their lives in November, and the defeat will be richly deserved.

    I have to say, based on my anecdotal experience of talking to people and some of PPP's numbers out of Massachusetts that:

    if Democrats pass "either of these proposed HCR packages they will take the whooping of their lives in November, and the defeat will be richly deserved."

    I think DKos writers underestimate how the present HCR proposals -- specifically mandatory insurance -- is distrusted and hated by the general public.

    These bills are disasters.

    "With all the wit of a stunned trout, prodigal stumbled clumsily into the midst of a discussion . . . " -- droogie6655321

    by prodigal on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:43:44 AM PST

    •  Hi prodigal, well who's fault . . . (6+ / 0-)

      are these disasterous bills?

      Obama?

      Dems control everything, or so I thought.

      Oh stupid me, 41 is bigger than 59.

      •  I dont think blame matters at this point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        prodigal, Onomastic, James Robinson

        all I know is I wont be getting healthcare until I start schilling out 1000 dollars a month for it.

        "Corporate America decides which speech is free, and which isn't" Mike Malloy

        by rexymeteorite on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:48:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Heh. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Onomastic

        I'm torn.
        (Not about assigning blame, there's so much to go around that it's probably a futile exercise but I wouldn't leave corporate money out of the mix regardless of who's getting it)

        Basically, I think that if we really have to pass "something" it probably needs to be "something" that is not in either of these bills in a more pure form:
        insurance regulation, tax supported free clinics in under served communities, state insurance consortia, etc.

        Certainly you'd know better than I would what really needs to be done.

        But I don't think either party looks beyond the next election or thinks outside of their campaign dollars, so I have little hope of them doing anything that doesn't benefit Wellmark, etc.

        "With all the wit of a stunned trout, prodigal stumbled clumsily into the midst of a discussion . . . " -- droogie6655321

        by prodigal on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:54:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sick of Healthcare battles? (4+ / 0-)

    Why not take a break and help someone in Haiti get healthcare NOW?

    visit here

    If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am not for others, what am I? And if not now, when? Rabbi Hillel

    by AndyT on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:45:41 AM PST

  •  great diary thx n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, veracityus

    It may be a First Amendment problem that corporations aren't permitted to vote, given that voting is, among other things, a form of speech. - Justice Stevens

    by anyname on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:46:46 AM PST

  •  "out-of-touch carnival in Washington". Rec'd, and (6+ / 0-)

    nice turn of phrase.

    You know, I gave BO $1000 and my sister $2300. You think I have that kind of money for this kind of gov't?

    "No people can be great who have ceased to be virtuous." Samuel Johnson, An Introduction To The Political State of Great Britain

    by Mark B on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:49:07 AM PST

    •  thanks for the rec! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Midwesterners

      Dude, you can follow me on Twitter! You can also join my Facebook group, PublicOptionNow

      by slinkerwink on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:04:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Executives (0+ / 0-)

      From NBC to Wall Street, it is the Executive class/dynasty/mutation that is out of touch in this country and the majority of legistlators are from this group.  They are today's aristocracy and the public is the great unwashed.  I have encountered their attitude which can be summed up by,

        "The people need us since they are not well educated and are too lazy to take care of things themselves."

      The irony is that it is they that are out of touch with the needs of the people and by extension the country.  (apologies to those execs who are the exception to the rule, we need more of you)

      The Cake is a Lie.

      by rebus on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:40:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's Time (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, nyceve

    for our representatives in Washington to stop acting like a lump of clump.

    Get the job done now.

  •  This debacle is going to be studied (4+ / 0-)

    for years.  So many miscalculations and mistakes along the way.  It makes me sad to think back on all that has transpired.

    Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

    by lighttheway on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:50:10 AM PST

  •  I started to make a comment about (4+ / 0-)

    how Obama kept saying during the campaign that it wasn't about him, it was about us.  Now that he is no longer the champion of the people and has relinquished that role to the Republicans, it is all about him.  The onus is on Obama.  His failure to lead - and I hold him largely responsible for the failure in Congress on healthcare reform - is astounding.

    But, I just can't say anymore about this. 40+ years of disappointment with weak liberal Democrats made me reticent about embracing Obama.  Well, here we go again and I may just do what he's doing on health care reform:  walk away.  No more money, no more work, no more enthusiasm, and possibly no more voting.

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:51:04 AM PST

    •  What is wrong with Obama? (0+ / 0-)

      Is he just a smooth talking egotist who wanted to be President of the United States so badly that he over-sold  to the desperate Democrats who worked, voted and gave him money?  Was it an intentional shell game on his and his corporate masters part?  Is he simply too weak to govern the country, and leaves the direction of the country it to his corporatist advisors?  What is going on?

      This is a serious question.  How could we have ended up with this???

      All politics is class-warfare.

      by dhfsfc on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 03:10:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Can you FEEL the raw LEADERSHIP? (6+ / 0-)

    I would advise that we try to move quickly to coalesce around those elements of the package that people agree on.

    Whoa! That's telling them where the bear shits!

    Can you possibly put together a more mealy-mouthed, spineless, capitulating sentence? It roughly translates to:

    "It looks like we will have to take whatever scraps the corporate-controlled politicians and my meek non-leadership have led to....so suck it up people! Oh yeah,don't forget to vote Democratic!"

    These are not the reforms you are looking for - Obama-Wan

    by Wamsutta on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:51:33 AM PST

  •  Why don't Republicans own part of it? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, wmtriallawyer, Fury, Onomastic

    They are supposed to represent the people too and they shouldn't be left off the hook.

    I disagree with your take on Krugman as well, who has been anti-Obama since January of 2007.  

    I do agree that Obama should not let the dust settle and simply work on other things.  Finish this-- with the House voting for the Senate bill, which passed before Scott Brown was elected.

    But perhaps these Democrats fear for their jobs because many on the left-wing have so constantly assailed this bill (which now must pass?) that even idiots who voted for Brown think the bill should do more.

    Those who said this was a lousy bill already did their part getting their message through.

    Caring, thoughtful, well-researched diary, as always.

  •  I don't agree (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marabout40, Onomastic

    Some people are Paul Krugman supporters, others detractors, but I think there's one thing we might agree on, when Krugman bails, it's basically as significant as when Scotty Brown wins. And for better or worse, Krugman has just about given up on Mr. Obama.

    A lot of his articles have implied similar sentiments.  Perhaps he's an oracle and new all along but this isn't a change in position for him and thus doesn't really signify anything different.

    Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

    by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:51:46 AM PST

  •  Financing HCR on the backs of the middle class (7+ / 0-)

    rather than on the wealthy's, is a moral catastrophe.  And a political one.

    Big tent leads to big fail.

    by Paleo on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:51:48 AM PST

  •  I believe that President Obama (5+ / 0-)

    made a strategic error.  He tried to get too much done and in the wrong order.  The Massachusetts senatorial spoke tomes.  Democrats are angry and they sacrificed a seat (as stupid as that might have been) in order to prove a point.

    Obama shouldn't have tackled health care without establishing himself as a guy who gets jobs for the people and puts reigns on banks FIRST.  This would have established his credibility.  Now, no Republican in Congress is afraid NOT to play ball.  No Republican (or conservative DINO) is afraid of losing their seat.  Massachusetts proved it to them.

    We had an uphill battle before but now it's going to be even harder.  We need a concrete strategy to move this forward.  I am, unfortunately, at a loss as to what that strategy might be.  

    I'm afraid I've soured on petitions.  Taking it to the street, in support of reform and, yes, we have to be in support of our President, too, might be the answer.  

    Anyone?

    •  I agree, there's been some tactical errors (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic

      but I also see how it's been hard to get jobs in the first six months with where our economy was.  However, at this point it would be more hopeful to have seen more of a pick up.  

      Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

      by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:55:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Part of the problem (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bvig, erush1345

        is that Obama said if we passed the stimulus then unemployment would not go over 8%. It is now at 10%.
        He said that he would close Guantonimo (sp?)Bay in a year and hasn't.
        Then the whole "saved or created" fiasco.

        It would help if he didn't put definite time frames on things because the MSM just trumpets a missed deadline as a "failure".

        A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The USA for an amount of "up to and including my life." - unknown

        by AJsMom on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:04:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I love Obama but (7+ / 0-)

      letting the whole HCR evolve out of Max Baucus and his staff wasn't a mistake, it was a blunder.  If you are buying a car you don't start with the numbers the salesman wants.  Team O treated it as if it were an organic process.  It is not.  Baucus is a shallow, dim, corrupt tool of the very problems HCR was supposed to address.  Team O treated him like he was a real, fair, farsighted arbiter of what could be done to benefit the greatest number of Americans.  Max B was not so concerned.  It was evident from the start.  The Party and it's Leadership (including and especially WH) failed to influence the outcome.  And we are all paying for it dearly and will probably continue to for quite some time unless there is a dramatic, bold, fearless shift.  What can we do to make this happen?

  •  Far angrier? (9+ / 0-)

    Many are far angrier now, than during the days of Bush. Imagine this. How in the world could Democrats be more outraged now than during the dismal Bush years? Here's how. Maybe we feel just a little bit (oh how can I say this with great diplomacy, conned had.) We did everything and more that was asked of us.  

    Getting screwed by your friends hurts a lot more than getting screwed by your enemies.

    Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

    by lighttheway on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:54:06 AM PST

  •  I do like how you IGNORE that both... (5+ / 0-)

    ... Ezra and Krugman are pushing for the House to pass the Senate bill. But, of course, that is not a "pure" solution.

    •  An Ezra and Krugman matter how? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, 0wn

      Opinions are opinions.

      50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

      by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:05:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Onomastic

        Make your case without appealing to their authority only when that validate your narrow policy views. Its the same deceptive b.s. from the Kill-the-Bill crowd. Tell everyone want they want to hear.

        •  Offering their opinions (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          veracityus

          ...as part of your argument is not appealing to their authority.  Krugman is a good economist, but health care is far from his forte.  And Ezra Klein's opinions drift about.

          And your characterization of the "kill the bill" crowd shows a poor understanding of how to apply pressure in Congress.  The bill that needed to be killed was the Senate bill as it stood at the end of December -- the one with excise taxes on union-negotiated and other high-premium health plans, the one with an individual mandate and no cost controls, the one with the Nelson version of the Stupak amendment, the one with the pork put in for Mary Landrieu and Ben Nelson.  The one that has been touted for six months as the only plan you'll get.  Yes, that monstrosity needed to be killed because it was not the only possible plan we could get.  And the House has said so independently of the Tuesday election.  And not just House progressives.  Bart Stupak was going to take his folk's votes out over the Nelson compromise on abortion.

          BTW, you need to change your sig to:

          War: Destroying all social legislation since 1965.

          Because it is the bloated Defense department and the cost of two wars that caused Obama to put a cap of $90 billion a year average expenditure over 10 years on the healthcare plan.  It was Blue Dogs who opposed Obama's plan to cover the costs with a progressive rate structure on incomes over $250,000 and roll back the Bush tax cuts.  It was the attempt to make the bill bipartisan that dragged out the Senate Finance Committee markup.  The blame goes on a dysfunctional Congress, not on bloggers who get substantially less than 200,000 signatures on a petition.

          50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

          by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:35:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Methinks.... (0+ / 0-)

            Offering their opinions as part of your argument is not appealing to their authority.  Krugman is a good economist, but health care is far from his forte.  And Ezra Klein's opinions drift about.

            ... you don't undrstand what "appealing to an authority mans." What communications purpose does quoting their opinions (well out of the context of their beliefs) serve?

            •  I quoted Jesse Unruh today (0+ / 0-)

              If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics.

              ...totally out of context, not because I think he's an authority on whiskey, money, women, or politics but because it was a clever framing of a point of view I agree with.

              Sometimes the style or the information is more important than the authority.

              And I have no idea what Jesse Unruh's beliefs were.

              50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

              by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:07:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Only if you completely ignore... (0+ / 0-)

                ... the context in which Krugman and Klein were quoted, you're right!!!!

                They were quoted for one reason. To reinforce the point that HCR should pass.

                Clever bit with Jesse Unruch though.

                •  Health care reform should definitely pass (0+ / 0-)

                  It is debatable whether the Senate bill as it stands should pass.  And that is the debate going on in the Democratic caucus in the House.

                  There's a strange conflation going on between healthcare reform and the Senate's healthcare reform bill.

                  You can oppose the current bill and still say that dropping healthcare reform is immoral.  And Ezra makes the case for the immorality of dropping healthcare reform.

                  That is not the same thing as dropping the Senate bill, unless you believe that it is the Senate bill or nothing.  No one knows whether that is true or not, even within the Congress.  It is as it ever has been what the Democratic caucus in the Congress is willing to slam through.  I don't think the decision about what that is has been made yet.

                  50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

                  by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:13:58 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  HCR is dead (0+ / 0-)

            After whatever happens in the next couple days, Dems/Obama aren't going to touch it with a ten foot poll.  It is that unpopular among independents.

            If the Senate had gone your way, there would be zero chance now of anything meaningful getting passed.  The House needs to realize that this is the best we can get, and fixes can be made through reconciliation.

            Would you rather have no bill than one that actually gives coverage to nearly all Americans?  Would you choose the lives of people over your progressive "principles"?

            •  It hasn't to do with progressive principles (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Geary

              It has to do with the practical effects of the Senate bill on lots of people.  They will be paying higher premiums for health care insurance that they now have to buy either through their employer or on a poorly regulated state exchange.  If they already have high-premium (not necessarily high quality) insurance through the generosity of or hard negotiations with their employer, they will have to pay an excise tax on it --- regardless of their income.  

              The bill will prohibit women in some states from having abortions even if the private policy they are carrying has abortions as coverable benefits. This will affect women with late-term complications in pregnancy in ways that could threaten their lives.

              The reason that premiums will be higher for all policies is that insurance companies will raise premiums to cover those now covered with pre-existing conditions, those with a history of chronic medical problems, and no one's coverage can be dropped for any reason other than failure to pay or fraud.

              It is not only progressives in the House who have difficulty with the Senate bill.  Stupak's anti-abortion caucus is not happy with the Nelson amendment on abortion.

              And there are no real limits on deductions and co-pays.

              People will still be postponing care even though they now are paying insurance premiums.

              I'm OK with passing the Senate bill now and fixing it before July 2010.  Passing it now will clarify for voters what's in it and the screams will tell you what needs to be fixed.

              But it's not my principles on trial.  I don't control what my member of the House or Senators do.  They don't listen to me.  It is the principles of the members of Congress that are on trial, and they have failed to serve the people.

              50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

              by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:22:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  I'm getting pretty sick of discovering I've (8+ / 0-)

    been working my ass off for a lost cause.

    Month by month. (Hope to see you on Twitter)

    by Muskegon Critic on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:56:26 AM PST

    •  Last year did you give him a year deadline (0+ / 0-)

      to fix healthcare?  

      Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

      by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:01:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I did! And so did Obama. He wanted (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AJsMom, Wolf Of Aquarius

        a bill in August. I fear they've blown it.

        Month by month. (Hope to see you on Twitter)

        by Muskegon Critic on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:03:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hmmmm....guess that timeline didn't seem (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          practical to me from the get-go.  As before his election I definitely didn't put it getting a done deal in the first year.

          Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

          by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:06:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It was a practical timeline (0+ / 0-)

            He just took the wrong, hands-off, no leadership approach to get there.

            •  the healthcare fight has been a much longer one (0+ / 0-)

              than just this year.  It's a hard system to break out of and people seem to forget all the past fights, each time it needs to be reinvented.  But a year with a new president never seemed practical.  But just getting to a point where there is some consensus is a tremendous feat.  Next step, getting a good bill.

              Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

              by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:05:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Between getting health care reform passed, (0+ / 0-)

        Great Lakes trying to shut down the Chicago canal to keep the Asian carp out of the lakes, fighting against the people who are trying to kill a 1000 MW wind farm near Muskegon, or trying to get good regulations on banks...

        ...over and over and over again it's the Money that wins. Our politicians just lay down for whoever has the money no matter how it affects the rest of us.

        Month by month. (Hope to see you on Twitter)

        by Muskegon Critic on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:06:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Between morals and money (0+ / 0-)

          money comes out on top.  But I would argue that this was far more accentuated in the Bush presidency than it is now.

          Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

          by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:12:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Are you joking? (0+ / 0-)

        It was his deadline. His. And we are right on the precipice. If he lets it go away, all is lost to me.

        "This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected." - Barack Obama (3.18.08)

        by lapis on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:39:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  really? all is loss to me? how is this not (0+ / 0-)

          melodramatic?  yes everything's a waste because of a delay.  Get a grip.

          No, I'm not joking, deadlines are rarely met

          Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

          by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:41:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, there will be a delay all right (0+ / 0-)

            If it doesn't happen now, pencil it into your calendar for 2025.

            "This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected." - Barack Obama (3.18.08)

            by lapis on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:10:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  WH knows we're feeling "had";what will they do (0+ / 0-)

      about it?

      I believe this will be Obama's waterloo but will extend even farther than racist DeMint proclaimed.

      This will be the entire Democratic Party's "waterloo" if they produce nothing.

      When the tsunami of populist anger takes away their majority in 2010, it will be too late for them to realize this handwriting on the wall.

      Wake up, Democrats!  Wake up, White House!

      "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

      by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:06:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  With the Afghan war alone.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...with what's transpired or not in the past year, if I didn't know there'd been an election, I'd swear that it was just more normal stuff from Bush.

    Don't do vibrato. There'll be plenty of that naturally later when you're old and shaky. (Miles Davis, quoting his music instructor)

    by dov12348 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:56:50 AM PST

    •  Why weren't you aware of that issue before (6+ / 0-)

      the election.

      It's not like he hid it.  If that's what disappointed you than it's only because you were uninformed.

      Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

      by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:00:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  i'd be fine with afghanistan (0+ / 0-)

        if he was also ending the iraq war which he promised to do.

      •  I was aware of it. (0+ / 0-)

        I accepted it because I had no practical choice; I figured he was at least anti-Iraq war. That doesn't mean it's right; and that doesn't mean he's any different than Bush here.

        Don't do vibrato. There'll be plenty of that naturally later when you're old and shaky. (Miles Davis, quoting his music instructor)

        by dov12348 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:36:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bush went to Iraq (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bvig

          rather than finish Afghanistan. Obama realized that Afghanistan unfinished was a problem so went back. My guess is he will realize that little can be done there and leave. Bush, on the other hand, made a mess in Afghanistan and then left the Taliban to get stronger. I think there is a HUGE difference, if you want to see it.

          My personal feelings on this are not a lot different from yours but I can understand why the decision was made to go back to Afghanistan.

          •  There may be a huge difference... (0+ / 0-)

            ...in philosophy for all we know, but if true, that hasn't yet been reflected in action.

            Don't do vibrato. There'll be plenty of that naturally later when you're old and shaky. (Miles Davis, quoting his music instructor)

            by dov12348 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:17:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I signed the petition (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, NearlyNormal, veracityus

    Hope you do, too.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:57:05 AM PST

  •  The progressive movement is in terrible (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, NearlyNormal, veracityus

    disarray after this last week, and that is not due to our failings, but to the failings of our elected officials and leaders. It's time for them to step up to the plate and govern. I think that's why Obama is forcing them to own their bill. Of course, there is plenty for him to own as well, but at least there appears to be a course correction occurring in the area of financial reform. I will not believe it, however, until I see real action and real courage.

    Thanks for posting the link to the petition. I signed it and passed it on to friends.

    --Free thinkers shouldn't go around thinking just anything. (Terry Pratchett)

    by HPrefugee on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:59:13 AM PST

  •  Pared down bill age limit on pre-existing denials (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gratis4, bvig

    There's been a lot of talk about passing a pared down version of health reform. The NY Times had an article on what the provisions of such a bill would be and one of those provisions is to limit denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions to those under age 19.

    I understand the concerns about adverse selection if we don't mandate coverage but it's getting to the point where if they take that route I wonder if it's worth it.

    •  Funny how under ERISA (3+ / 0-)

      if you have an employer-based policy, insurers cannot deny you coverage for a pre-existing condition.  The most they can do is not cover the condition for 12 months, if you have not had insurance for the previous 12 months.

      That law has been in effect for YEARS.  And it covers most policies.  And when it passed, there was no talk of needing mandates.

      Why do we suddenly need mandates when we are  talking about non-employer-based policies?

      •  Once again (0+ / 0-)

        the self employed get the shaft.

        I am beginning the think there is a conspiracy against independence in this country.

        The Cake is a Lie.

        by rebus on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:47:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not ERISA - it's HIPAA (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        smkngman, Crazy like a fox, gratis4

        The waiting period can be as long as 18 months. But it can be eliminated or reduced if you haven't had a significant break in coverage (defined as 63 days).

        Getting pre-existing conditions covered and not being denied coverage is one of the reasons why it's some important to have coverage through a group plan with an employer.

        But what happens if I work for an employer who doesn't provide health insurance and I have to get private insurance but I have a pre-existing condition? Or what if I lost my job and was unable to continue coverage through COBRA or even if I did go through COBRA I have a break in coverage and have to go to a private plan?

        Do you know you can also be denied coverage based on you activities? For example, you will be denied private insurance if you are a volunteer firefighter.

        Here's some HIPAA Q&A's

        •  It is under ERISA as well (0+ / 0-)

          but that doesn't negate your arguments.

          I am really well versed in the discrimination involved between large employer groups, small emplyer groups and individuals.  I don't think many people here on employer plans really appreciate the problems.

          It has long been my argument that insurance companies need to sell the same policy at the same price to all comers.

          But my statement stands.  If you have had no break in coverage, your pre-existing conditions are covered no matter what if you get on an employer plan.

          If the insurance companies can support this without mandates, why are mandates neccesary to support the same thing for individual plans?

  •  Iraq is the greatest Moral Catastrophe (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing, marabout40
    •  It is hard to keep track of just how many moral (0+ / 0-)

      catastrophes we've had for the past 30 or so years. IKE warned us about the MIC and where did that get us? We were warned over and over again about the Great Heist of 2008 and the economic terrorist who now own our government, and then the Supreme Court hands what is left of our tattered Democracy over the the Corporations yesterday.  We are so totally fucked and it is certainly time for a National Strike lasting upwards of several weeks, to STOP THE CORRUPTION NOW....because that is what it really is: Payoffs, legalized bribery, kickbacks, raping and pillaging, war profiteering, I could go on and on and on.

      We've been sucker punched by a president and a political system which has proven to lack even a semblance of a moral compass.

      I guess the American citizens will one day finally march on Washington by the millions to STOP THE CORRUPTION, but right now our leaders are officially nothing more than a group of Whores who should all be fired as of yesterday.

      America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization.

      by Badabing on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:47:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nyceve- I think you need to be clearer. (13+ / 0-)

    The only path for the House is to pass the Senate bill, period.  Nothing else.  They can talk about reconciliation later, but if they don't pass this bill soon (and I mean within a week) this thing is over and we are failures.

    I am nearing the point of voting like an independent (something I have never done).  If the President can't demand passage of the bill that he said over and over again was vital for this country, then I'm sorry but he does not deserve our support except to the extent it keeps the Sarah Palin's of the world out of power. If the House Dems run from this vote like scared children (which is an insult to children) then they must all be thrown out.

    This is shameful weakness that no Republican government would ever display in the face of such mild adversity.  We lost 1 fucking Senate seat. Big fucking deal.  We won a seat in Alaska by fluke and now we've given one back by fluke.  That's how politics works sometimes.  But when you have the opportunity to do the right thing to help 30 million people (and millions more who cannot afford to pay their insurance bills) you have to do it or you have failed a critical moral choice.

    It's not about liberal v. conservative when liberals fail at this stage.  This is about whether the politicians we elected have any moral compass whatsoever.  

    Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

    by khyber900 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:02:15 AM PST

    •  The Senate bill cannot pass. They don't (7+ / 0-)

      have the votes for it. It's why they're talking about sidecar reconciliation where a separate bill is passed via reconciliation to fix the Senate bill.

      Dude, you can follow me on Twitter! You can also join my Facebook group, PublicOptionNow

      by slinkerwink on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:07:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is just bullshit, sorry. (6+ / 0-)

        The Senate bill can pass today, tomorrow or Saturday.  There are enough votes for it.  When these folks are proposing half-measures that are actually worse than the Senate bill's coverage provisions, then you know that the House is simply not being genuine or honest.  They don't really hate the Senate bill.  They are just looking for a way to pass the buck.  Don't buy into the House's holier than thou garbage.  They are full of it.

        Fanciful liberals like Weiner and Grijalva should draw the most scorn from this site.  Just because MSNBC gives them air time, they think it adds inches to their dicks and votes in the caucus.  It doesn't.  Their intransigence and deliberate trashing of the Senate bill, which socialist Bernie Sanders thinks is great is infuriating.  They have undermined the President and the course of progress at every turn.  Wimpy liberals like Barney Frank and the Mass delegation deserve even more scorn.  They see potential Scott Brown clones everywhere and now they run scared. I'll bet moderate Dems chortled with laughter when they saw that.

        Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

        by khyber900 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:16:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's exactly right (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cedwyn, gratis4, Karl Rover, kfd313

          They don't really hate the Senate bill.

          And IMO they want to leverage promises for improvements, which I hope they get.

          But no one hates this:

          Ends discrimination based on pre-existing condition. Insurance companies will have to take all comers.  They can’t deny you coverage or jack up your premiums based on your health status.

          Ends gender discrimination. Insurance companies will no longer be able to charge higher premiums based on gender.

          Caps out-of-pocket expenses. Insurance companies will have to abide by limits on what they can charge you for out-of-pocket expenses like deductibles and co-pays.

          Prevents dropping of coverage for seriously ill.  Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping, watering down, or refusing to renew your coverage when you get sick and need it most.

          Prohibits caps on total coverage. Insurance companies will no longer be able to limit the total amount of coverage you can receive.

          Allows children to stay on their parents insurance until age 26.

          Limits premium differences based on age. Currently insurance companies can charge older Americans up to 5 or 6 times as much as younger Americans.  The bill will limit that ratio to 3-1.

          Provides seniors with relief from prescription drug prices.  Seniors in the so-called "donut hole" will immediately receive a 50 percent discount on prescription drugs, and the size of the donut hole will be reduced by $500 in 2010.

          Tax credits for individuals, families, and small businesses.  The bill provides tax credits for small businesses, as well as middle- and low-income Americans, to help them afford health insurance.

          Makes preventive care completely free. Insurance companies will be forced to fully cover – with no co-pays – preventive care like colonoscopies or mammograms.

          Significantly reduces the federal deficit. The Congressional Budget Office reports that the bill will reduce our deficit by $132 billion over the first decade, and by as much as $1.3 trillion by the end of the second decade.

          Creates new health insurance Exchanges. The bill creates new health insurance Exchanges where individuals, families, and small businesses can compare plans and choose the one that works best for them.  These Exchanges will lower premiums by increasing competition and reducing administrative costs.  They will also provide consumers with unprecedented information.

          Extends the life of the Medicare Trust Fund. The bill roots out waste, fraud, and abuse in Medicare and adds 9 years to the life of the Medicare trust fund.

          Controls skyrocketing health care costs. The bill contains a wide range of cost-control measures, such as rewarding quality of care, and encouraging health care providers to work together.

          Protects patients’ choice of doctors. Individuals will be allowed to choose any participating  primary care provider, prohibiting insurers from requiring prior authorization before a woman sees an ob-gyn, and ensuring access to emergency care.

          Ensures Americans get value for their premium payments. Insurers won’t be allowed to gouge consumers or funnel dollars that should be spent on health care to line their executives’ pockets.  They will be required to spend 80 percent of small group and individual premiums and 85 percent of large group premiums dollars on health benefits or provide customers a rebate.

          Expands community health centers. An immediate and substantial investment in community health centers will expand access to health care in communities where it is needed most.

          Lowers premiums for retirees and employers. The bill creates access to re-insurance for employer health plans providing coverage for early retirees.  This re-insurance will help protect coverage while reducing premiums for employers and retirees.

          http://democrats.senate.gov/...

          Insurance companies are now public utilities.  I'd have greatly preferred a public option but if this passes I'm about to party.

          •  It's the 40% co-pay (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GN1927

            on Senate 60% subsidized actuarial value coverage that bugs people.

            On $100 billion of medical bills, sick people will have to pay $40 billion under Senate 60% subsidized actuarial value coverage.

            And don't forget to send in the premiums.

            Going to 70% of the House means $30 billion out of $100 billion.

            If people had a choice of Medicare rate public option and House level subsidies, then they could buy coverage for about $85 billion of that $100 billion for the same premium amount.

            And we could cut that $15 billion down some more with drug pricing control.

            Want to leave sick people's bills at $40 billion out of $100 billion at Senate 60% style, or go to $10 billion out of $100 billion for the same premium amount?

            •  Right now it's 100% (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GN1927

              that's the choice--40% or 100%. I don't like it, but I think 40% is better than 100%. Also, it's probably 100% of a higher amount, because you always get charged more if you have no insurance but aren't totally broke (yet).

              "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

              by Alice in Florida on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:43:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  No there are NOT enough votes for it without (0+ / 0-)

          improvement.

          The Senate bill can't pass the house, and the house bill can't pass the Senate.

          BOTH FREAKING SIDES NEED TO COMPROMISE.

          THEY ARE EQUAL BRANCHES.

          AND THE PRESIDENT AS WELL CAN VETO AND KILL ANYTHING, AND HE HAS NOT USED HIS POWER.

          Sorry for the yelling.

          Rick
          -9.63 -6.92
          Fox News - We Distort, You Deride

          by rick on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:28:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not if the House Progressives won't pass it. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          efraker

          If the Senate gets to say "no votes", then the House does too, leaving us with an impasse.

          Seems to me, the House did the work to pass a bill people can live with.

          The Senate didn't, so this is their problem, not the House, nor House Progressives.

          IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

          by potatohead on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 06:35:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The House does NOT have the votes to (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, DeepLooker, Onomastic

      pass the Senate Bill.  You have the Stupak group sitting out because they don't like the abortion language.  You have the progressive caucus sitting out as well.

      Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

      by lighttheway on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:07:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ...and that's why they had better get their (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bumblebums, GN1927, Onomastic

        act together or this government will fail.  The President needs to force a vote on his bill and demand passage.  If either the Stupakrats or the liberals vote no, then we'll know who to blame.

        Alternative rock with something to say: http://www.myspace.com/globalshakedown

        by khyber900 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:17:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Speaker and Whip: (0+ / 0-)

        Who's sitting what out in terms of the most significant legislative achievement in 40 years?

        Someone needs to start handing out hot glasses of STFU in that chamber; they need to pass this bill IMO.

  •  The problem with Dems in Congress (5+ / 0-)

    ...is they no longer no what the public will congratulate them on doing.  And the Beltway conventional wisdom and the rotten advice of "Democratic consultants" will lead them astray.

    It is possible to through budget reconciliation open up Medicare to everyone, appropriate the funds to do it, and pay for it with an end to the Bush tax cuts, plus making the tax rates more progressive from $200,000 income up.  And you better index those income levels to inflation or it will come creeping back on the middle class.

    It is possible legislatively with nothing but Democrats to do this, but somebody is going to have the crack the whip over these cats heads to herd them.

    And someone is going to have to sit down with them and tell them plainly that if they don't go along, they won't be re-elected.  Because one way or the other that will be the truth.

    Nobody is putting it out there an polling the American people.

    50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

    by TarheelDem on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:03:13 AM PST

  •  The fascist media has blurred this message (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, rebus

    and it's time for the people to fight back.

    The Public Option IS popular and every time I hear one of the MSM pimps stating otherwise makes my skin crawl.  The overt lying in our faces MUST stop.

    If the Dems come up with "nothing" now, the entire party will be considered lameducks and will shrivel on the vine.

    If they come up empty-handed, the american people will again "throw out the bums" - this time it will be "all of the bums".

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:04:18 AM PST

  •  They will manage to get some kind of health (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, GN1927, Onomastic

    care bill to the President.  I don't know what it will look like, but they will not pass on some type of bill.

    I think this "breathing room" break is a good thing.  WE have been plowing through for over a year, with no real plan.  Its time to take a good look at where the votes are and clearly assess what they can achieve, and then just do it.  

    In the mean time a jobs and financial reform focus is what is needed.  IF we continue to generate headlines on HCR, we will further decline in the polls.  People have not tired of the HCR debate, they have tired of the failures of the process.  

    Therefore, they need to put something on the front burner that is popular, and in the back round get HCR done.  Enough of the shenanigans.  

    Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

    by lighttheway on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:05:48 AM PST

  •  We all want Health Care Reform (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AJsMom

    but not this one, to make as if Obama and the Democrats have the only health care reform bill is ludicrous. The notion that the Republicans didn’t want to work with them is also miss information. All the ideas that they brought to the table was rejected and they were locked out of any further discussions. If you say "see it my way only" and want to call it bipartisan you won’t get any cooperation from the Republicans. The fact of the matter is the Obama administration wanted to create a health care system that would make millions of people dependant on the government and in doing so use it as another way to distribute wealth and keep the power in one party. They lost the real reason for health care reform and that is to cut cost for all and to help lower income people to be able to afford health care. Medicaid is still there and will always be there for those who have nothing. The sooner they all get back to the drawing board and start over the better for all of us. If the democrats push through with reconciliation they will be committing political suicide. The people who voted for change are showing this is not the kind of change they voted for.is

    Socialism succeeds until you have used up all the other people's money.

    by aDoseofReality on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:06:00 AM PST

    •  What Republican ideas were rejected? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SpecialKinFlag

      Seriously. Please make a cogent case that the Republicans were willing to work on healthcare reform.  And don't just give me tort reform, unless you can prove that tort reform would have a significant effect on healthcare costs.  The Republicans had nothing else.

      And what makes you think that the Obama administration wanted to make millions dependent upon government, to the benefit of only one party?  The NHS in the UK has not benefitted the Labor Party exclusively - the Conservatives support it too.  

      "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

      by ivorybill on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:04:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You know tort reform (2+ / 4-)
        Recommended by:
        miriam, rian90
        Hidden by:
        liberte, NearlyNormal, alba, Karl Rover

        will save money if we can eliminate frivolous law suits and curb defensive medicine. What about buying health insurance over state lines that will create competition and lower premiums? How about collective bargaining for health insurance for small business? How about Tax incentives to buy health insurance? I can go on and on. I have conservative family living in England and they would love to have our current medical system but since the NHS is so entrenched in the English system they can't change back because so many people has lost their ability to take care of them self over the years. We don't want to follow in their steps. The Obama administration with all his socialist advisors know that one step at a time they can achieve their goal to become a socialist state by creating this massive state run health care system. The more people dependant on the state for their survival the easier it is to manipulate the population. Chavez is a good example. Having conservative philosophies doesn’t make one less companionate for the less fortunate, we just don't like the way the Obama administration wants to do it.  

        Socialism succeeds until you have used up all the other people's money.

        by aDoseofReality on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:31:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Frivolous lawsuits lead to sanctions of the (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpecialKinFlag, Karl Rover, bvig

          Attorneys.  This is the biggest bunch of crap around.

          Have an h/r for the talk of "socialist advisors".

          They've got Charles Darwin trapped out there on highway 5" Bob Dylan

          by NearlyNormal on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:16:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Lay out your plan in an understandable way (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpecialKinFlag, Karl Rover

          Frivolous law suits while maybe needing addressed are really a sideshow not making much of a dent in health care costs.  

          I don't think this bill is great but it does have collective bargaining on health insurance for small business - perhaps you should be more informed about the bill.  

          Over state lines also might make some of a dent but as a republican you should be all about state rights, and many states have consumer protections in place so this would erode some of their rights.  

          I'm really not seeing where you have any sort of plan or argument.  I've seen lots of arguments against health care but this is not one of them.

          Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

          by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:50:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  HR for lies and RW talking points (0+ / 0-)

          which are pretty much the same thing.

        •  I want proof. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NearlyNormal, Karl Rover

          I want to talk to your

          conservative family living in England and they would love to have our current medical system

          and find out if this is true.

          I want proof that tort reform will

          save money if we can eliminate frivolous law suits and curb defensive medicine.

          Links please.

          I want proof that

          buying health insurance over state lines that will create competition and lower premiums

          rather than forcing my state, Oregon, to accept the lowest standards that an insurance company can shop for.

          I want proof.

          Oh, and by the way, I troll rated you for this:

          The Obama administration with all his socialist advisors know that one step at a time they can achieve their goal to become a socialist state

          •  Second that troll rating (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            liberte, alba, Karl Rover, Plox

            The notion that [bleep]ing Larry Summers or Timothy Geithner is a [bleep]ing socialist is so far from being "a dose of reality" that I hardly know where to begin.
            But I'll suggest this, Dose. Start by reading a [bleep]ing dictionary to find out what "socialism" actually means.

            "Think of something to make the ridiculous look ridiculous." -- Molly Ivins

            by dumpster on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 03:28:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Funny how the word socialist (0+ / 0-)

              gets you liberals in a tail spin. Maybe I am hitting to close to home. Calling someone names and cursing him when he has a different point of view is a sign of defeat and a lack of argument. We all know what socialism in our context means, I don’t need a dictionary explanation. It means wealth distribution until everyone is poor. When we are all so poor (except the elite) that we have to depend on the Government for our livelihood they (Government/elite) can play cat and mouse with us for their own enrichment. I did not name any person to be a socialist but since you want one, how about Andy Stern from SEIU, the most frequent visitor to the WH. I will tell him in his face he displays all the motives of a true socialist. (Workers of the world unite)
              If you want to see what the NHS in England is doing, take a look at this: You asked for links, "As a result a national wave of discontent is building up, as family and friends witness the denial of fluids and food to patients."The warning comes just a week after a report by the Patients Association estimated that up to one million patients had received poor or cruel care on the NHS.
              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...
              You ask for proof that Tort reform and buying health insurance over state lines will lower medical cost, what proof do you have that doing nothing about tort reform and state lines won’t lower cost? This is a mute argument. If you call me any name again I will not respond to your argument, grow up.

              Socialism succeeds until you have used up all the other people's money.

              by aDoseofReality on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 04:26:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Were you talking to dumpster? Or to me? (0+ / 0-)

                You are the one that is making a claim that tort reform and over the line insurance will lower costs and then you ask for proof when I question that?

                Fail.

                And you are quoting Murdoch's Telegraph to prove a small part of you point?

                Fail.

                As I said give me proof.

                Or go away.

                •  Your attitude is the same one (0+ / 0-)

                  that got the democratic congress in the mess they find them self in. If I don’t agree with you and see it your way you tell me to go away.  If I see it your way you will call it Bipartisan. This is a democracy and if you exclude a major portion of your opponents in decision making you are committing political suicide like the democrats are doing. Fortunately it seems like there are a few democrats coming to their senses.

                  Back to our argument: Regarding The Telegraph, you probably didn’t even read the report when you saw where it came from since you seem to very bias towards your point of view.  If you read the article you will find there is also positives to your point of view. The point here is there are no clear cut solutions for this problem and taking the hard line attitude you express will solve nothing.

                  I agree with you that tort reform and insurance over the state lines isn’t the silver bullet to curb health care costs and that was never my assumption, only some of the examples of other means to curb cost. I am sure making some changes in this regard will not increase cost and every bit will help.

                  If you can get over your "I know better than you" attitude you are welcome to respond and have a decent discussion and no one liners, I won’t take the bait.

                  Socialism succeeds until you have used up all the other people's money.

                  by aDoseofReality on Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 08:08:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  the point of socialism is to make everyone poor? (0+ / 0-)

                We all know what socialism in our context means ... It means wealth distribution until everyone is poor.

                If your point of view requires that hundreds of millions of people be either insane or developmentally disabled, as no rationale/sane person would hold their views...

                ...you're over-simplifying.

                "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

                by efraker on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:34:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  I'll try to give you real responses (0+ / 0-)

          and I disagree with people who HR'd you, even though it's pretty clear you are a Republican.  The "socialist advisors" statement is just silly. Obama is so far from being a socialist that your comment is unworthy of a response.

          Collective bargaining for small businesses - no objection there.  Personally, I favor repealing anti-trust immunity for HMOs and prosecuting them for anti-trust violations.  The problem that Republicans don't seem to understand is that health care is not like buying and selling any old commodity in which a colonoscopy for example can be priced at different locations.  Often only one major hospital serves a region, and often one has no choice in which HMO to use.  A federal medicaid system addresses this far more effectively.

          Tax incentives to buy insurance?  You know, really poor people don't often take advantage of tax incentives.  And if there's no truly competitive market for health care, then tax incentives are not much good because health insurance remains unaffordable.

          "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

          by ivorybill on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 03:51:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ivorybill,thanks for (0+ / 0-)

            a constructive response. I do agree with your take on improving health care. I am a registered independent and there are many aspects of what the Bush administration done I do not agree with, I like to think of myself as an independent thinker who doesn't follow blindly and no alliance with any party. Anyway, I never said Obama is a socialist, I said his administration has socialist advisors. I do believe he has noble ideas to help the under privileged but that he surrounded him with socialist who want to promote their agenda. The problem for him now is he is caught between a rock and a hard place.

            Socialism succeeds until you have used up all the other people's money.

            by aDoseofReality on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 04:51:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Who are you people... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Red Bean, alba

      and why are you on this site? There is no basis in fact or reality for your assertions, especially that Republikan ideas were rejected and why are you championing Republikan ideas on a Democratic site? You'll get a "dose of reality" if the Republikans regain power, one you won't like very much as you watch the middle class transformed into "wage slaves" unable to organize, be safe in the work place or live in prosperity or peace. This diary and your comment are a waste of time and horribly out of touch with reality.

      "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

      by KJG52 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 05:12:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The problem now is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dartagnan, nervousnellie

    that every Dem is afraid of losing their job come November and is running around screaming like a little girl!

    A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to The USA for an amount of "up to and including my life." - unknown

    by AJsMom on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:06:35 AM PST

  •  through reconciliation they can extend medicare (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, SpecialKinFlag

    RIGHT HERE....RIGHT NOW.

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:06:55 AM PST

  •  They will lose their job if they do nothing (4+ / 0-)

    that is a given.

    The blurring of the reality by the Blue Dogs that they will lose their seat if they DO pass healthcare is the biggest bogus piece of bullshit I've ever heard.

    Clearly, this means that these Blue Dogs are totally out of touch with the reality of americans.

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:08:10 AM PST

  •  Moratorium on Congressional healthcare?? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, nyceve, Escamillo

    How can the people place a moratorium on the healthcare of our legislators immediately??

    This is an avenue worth exploring right now...

    Any lawyers here to figure out the methodology of taking this statement to our congressmen next week?

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:09:10 AM PST

  •  PASS THE SENATE BILL NOW!!!!!!!!!! (3+ / 0-)

    (sorry for the all caps) tipped and rec'd.

    I ♥ President Barack Obama

    by ericlewis0 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:10:36 AM PST

  •  My thoughts. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GN1927, gratis4, artmartin, Onomastic

    It is a grave disservice to conflate healthcare/health insurance reform as an imperative and say it is so because the President bailed out the banks.  These are two separate items.  In my view, at the time it occurred, the bank bailouts were absolutely necessary.  The banking system - deeply flawed, highly corrupt - was literally teetering on the edge.  The fact that it was teetering as a result of its own greed winds up being somewhat beside the point at that time - because the impending collapse was creating such a panic among regular people (rightly or wrongly, emotion IS a market driver) that it threatened to be its own self-fullfilling prophecy if it wasn't forcefully, publicly addressed and some measure of calm restored.  So I do wish people would STOP conflating these issues.  The bank bailout was the best decision that could be made at that time and with the contextual circumstances that were present.

    If you want to focus on something that NEEDS to be addressed with respect to the banks, focus on the lack of meaningful re-regulation.  THAT is something that must occur if we are to learn from our mistakes and prevent future in the moment instances where a bailout would be necessary.

    To use "he's bailing out the banks and not regular people" turns a blind eye to history - albeit recent - and context.  And it annoys the hell out of me.

    So moving on.  On the substance of pusing for reconciliation, I agree.  But reconciliation, its necessity, and the necessity to continue to push for meaningful healthCARE reform has nothing to do with the bank bailout.  If you continue to push that line, you further weaken whatever chance it is you might reasonably have because you foment an over-arching feeling of "it's hopeless" and DISincentivize the potential of grassroots action.

    •  Thank you n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RenaRF

      We must accept finite disappointment but never lose infinite hope. - Dr. Martin Luther King

      by Onomastic on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:04:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I conflate the issues (0+ / 0-)

      because I think that's the way most voters see it, and I think their anger over the bailouts, along with the lack of help for ordinary people, is something the Democrats could really capitalize on. It IS us against them; Goldman Sachs DOES seem to own the Treasury Dept; we DO hand out gobs of money to big business and leave individuals to fend for themselves. Anger at the banks should have been the best thing that could have happened to Democrats. Why aren't we fanning it and using it?

      It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man. --H.L. Mencken

      by denise b on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:08:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Better Late than Never (0+ / 0-)

    on using Reconcilliation to get this done. Some
    RESULTS will go a long way to getting folks motivated.
    If the Democrats can't actually DELIVER, then I don't even
    want to think about November.

    On Giving Advice: Smart People Don't Need It and Stupid People Don't Listen

    by Brian76239 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:11:09 AM PST

  •  We were emotionally invested (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alice in Florida

    I think the anger and the disillusion is because we were so emotionally invested in this President. We did invest our hopes and even our love and now we see that we aren't going to see the change we expected. It can't all be excused with "look what Obama inherited."

    •  Here we go again (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boredwitnuts

      EVERY time we come out of a period of being royally screwed by Repukes, we expect far too much of the incoming Democratic President. He's supposed to clean up the mess AND move the country in a better direction, at the same time.

      Only one such President has ever been fully up to the job: FDR. And there was only one of him, and he overreached in some cases, and made serious mistakes in others. Nobody's perfect.

      The last President in such an unenviable position was Bill Clinton - and the public turned on him as soon as it was clear that he wasn't going to be able to deliver everything they wanted.

      So, here we go again.

      If it's
      Not your body
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      AND it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:25:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary, BTW & how to stop their healthcare? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, nyceve, ridemybike

    Any ideas on how we can place a temporary moratorium on the healthcare benefits which taxpayers are funding for our legislators so that they can more clearly begin to empathize with average middle class americans and permit them to have "first hand experience" of what it's like out here?

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:11:39 AM PST

  •  Ditto, Eve. Thanks again. nt (0+ / 0-)
  •  any chance we could ratchet down these (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GN1927, Triscula, marabout40

    'moral catastophes' approaches and try and see what can be done? NO?  ah well, yawn.

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    I think I'll just go look for solutions instead of screaming still, DO IT MY WAY!!!  

    Thank god for choices. I don't have to listen.  I'm going to see what I can do to help those who have to make it work.  This approach has already done enough damage.

  •  sidebar: CA don't get sick - if do die faster (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NearlyNormal, gratis4

    http://www.newyorkinjurynews.com/...

    EXCERPT

    Legal news for California health care attorneys. Families of autistic children are in an uproar after a state-funded therapy was cut.

    California health care attorneys alerts- A class-action lawsuit was filed after state-funded autism therapy was cut.

    Los Angeles, CA—Families in eastern Los Angeles County have filed a class-action lawsuit after state-funded services for autistic children were discontinued. The lawsuit was filed on Thursday, January 14, 2010 on behalf of the affected families in the Los Angles County Superior Court, as reported by the Los Angeles Times.

    It may be a First Amendment problem that corporations aren't permitted to vote, given that voting is, among other things, a form of speech. - Justice Stevens

    by anyname on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:15:21 AM PST

  •  So do you support the HOUSE voting for the Senate (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bumblebums, GN1927, marabout40

    bill without any changes, and sending that to Obama to sign? That is the ONLY way we're going to get anything close to reform.

    You are spouting contradictory goals. Now you're for reform as it is currently congealed?

    Otherwise, it will be broken up into pieces.

    •  Reconciliation could include medicare expansion (0+ / 0-)

      and that could be done immediately since the program already exists.

      "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

      by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:26:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How are you going to pay for it? And some things (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marabout40

        likely couldn't get through reconciliation.

        I think that at this point that is a dead strategy.

        Pass the Senate bill as is, have the Prez sign it, and try to fix it later (GET that promise in blood).

      •  If there were 50 Senate votes for it (0+ / 0-)

        which doesn't seem likely. Medical providers (doctors, hospitals) have succeeded in batting down any attempts to extend Medicare, which pays them less than private insurers.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:00:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Lack of leadership from Obama, Wimp President (3+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    rpj2004, Wolf Of Aquarius, caduceus4
    Hidden by:
    brillo

    He turned tail and ran--all the way to Ohio to talk about jobs-- and shouted over his shoulder, hey congress let me know when you sort it out.

    •  I don't fault him for that from a (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn, Wolf Of Aquarius

      strategic standpoint.  WE are going to further sink in the polls if we keep talking HCR in Washington.  It is clearly time to put something together in the back rooms of Capital Hill.  They really just need to do this now, without anymore talk.  WE are now less than 10 months away from the election, and they REALLY need to put jobs and financial reform in the spot light.

      That's not the same thing as dropping HCR.  HCR needs to get done FAST, but no more "talking".

      Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

      by lighttheway on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:18:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  He got the message and is growing a pair (0+ / 0-)

      as we type.

      What he's needed is a reality check from those who believed in him and elected him into office.

      He's heard it - loud and clear.  We will see a more forceful Obama in the days to come.

      If not, he threatens to take down the entire Democratic Party with him if he continues business as usual.

      "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

      by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:28:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hasn't he already taken down the party? (0+ / 0-)

        Look at DKos since the Massachusetts election.

        He is actively running away from leadership in a time of party crisis.  Look at Gibbs comments about dust settling down.  

    •  A) quit attacking the personality (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn

      B) We desperately need jobs here in Ohio.

      You want to say you feel there's a lack of leadership, fine, but 'wimp' is a totally unnecessary insult.

      Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:31:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  As frustrating as this loss in Massachusetts (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    miriam

    is, I think that in the end it is now possible to get a better end result.  A strong bill in reconciliation (HCR reform), and then INSURANCE reform passed piece meal accomplishes two things:  ends the stalling and shenanigans, and results in better legislation.  We should have went this route 12 months ago.

    Expose the lies. Fight for the truth. Push progressive politics. Save our planet. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

    by lighttheway on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:15:50 AM PST

  •  Eve, You need to be more Specific. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, caduceus4

    Simply saying that "Democrats" own this disaster is far too broad.  

    Nancy Pelosi and the Progressive Caucus, for example, put together a much better bill than the Senate has.  But there are Democratic House members who have ignored the moral imperatives here, as well.  Who, specifically, are they?  

    If we are going to pressure people, we need to know the right people to pressure.  

    I'm not criticizing you; I'm trying to suggest that it is time to focus this outrage on those responsible.  

    I've argued for quite a while now that the biggest obstacle to the Democratic agenda (aside from Republicans) is Harry Reid.  He's all carrot and no stick; he refuses to force the Republicans to actually hold the floor and filibuster, which makes it far easier for them to threaten to filibuster everything, and hold the entire agenda hostage.  He can't even hold his own caucus together.  His response to Scott Brown's win was to declare that "It is mathematically impossible for us to pass legislation [without Republican support]."  Can you imagine LBJ saying something like that?  

    He's already facing a tough re-election challenge. We need to make it clear to him that this is a total failure on his part, and that we will fight against his re-nomination in the primary, and will not support him in the election in November, if that's what it takes to get rid of him, on the chance that we might get someone with more guts in the position.  

    WE've elected more Democrats.  It's time to start electing better Democrats.  

    Quitcherbitchin, put on your thinking caps and boxing gloves, and start swinging!

    by Jbearlaw on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:18:42 AM PST

    •  "better dems" - the operative word here (0+ / 0-)

      We've realized that having a majority means zippo when you have turncoats like the Blue Dogs.  

      Blue Dogs simply means 'damn near Repukes'.

      "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

      by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:29:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I feel sucker punched by you actually (5+ / 0-)

    Agreed however that we need to pass HCR and we need to do it now.

  •  But they always get the wrong (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, SycamoreRich

    message.  If Democrats lose big in 2010, they will say it is because they weren't centrist enough.

    •  Exactly! How About Doing Something Positive? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SingleVoter, denise b

      Instead of passing a bill that forces people to buy crappy private insurance, just pass a Medicare expansion down to 50 or 55.  Give the voters a reason to get out and vote for you.

      No, it doesn't cover everybody right away, but it is a huge expansion, and it puts us on the right path.  It would be extremely popular.

      Let's get the mojo back!

  •  The petition is DEAD WRONG (6+ / 0-)

    The petition you are encouraging contradicts what you are saying, to pass the Senate Bill.

    Passing the Senate bill is a recipe for disaster--it's not a bill the Senate should be proud of.

    There's an alternative, it's called RECONCILIATION.

    Reconciliation is not an alternative to the Damn Senate Bill.  If we have any chance of giving House Democrats a clue, it means getting everyone on board with the obvious solution: Pass the Damn Senate Bill AND fix it with reconciliation.  Your petition undermines that.

    You have the power to change America. Yes. We. Can.

    by CA Pol Junkie on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:20:47 AM PST

    •  this is what I got from the diary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      We Won

      Pass the Senate Bill and then extend Medicare and do whatever else they can accomplish via reconciliation.

      "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

      by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:30:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  petition contradicts diary (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glynis

        I agree with you on what should be done, but the petition and diary disagree with each other.  The petition should not be promoted because it is destructive to enacting health care reform.

        You have the power to change America. Yes. We. Can.

        by CA Pol Junkie on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:44:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It says that on the petition. (0+ / 0-)

      I read it and did not sign it. I disagree with it, but I would not say it is wrong. It is at least half right. We do need reconciliation. I want the Senate bill because unlike reconciliation it can eliminate preconditions, caps, and place other limitations on insurance companies. Reconciliation is needed to fix the excise tax.

      The real enemies are the people who do not want either the Senate bill or reconciliation.

    •  I have not seen anybody say they were fooled. (0+ / 0-)
      If anybody did, I'd guess based on the people involved they would be happy to remove the name.

      From reading the thread it looks like it's the same people taking the same positions they usually take. It is really a debate between two groups who both want HCR, but have different ideas about how to do it.

      I want the Senate bill to be pass and be fixed at the same time. Others think they should just do reconciliation, maybe they even want to use it to Medicare for all. If I thought that would pass I would be for it too.

      We disagree, that does not make us enemies.

  •  I usually stay out (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, royce

    but its the same moral catastrophe thats happened several times in my lifetime, I doubt its the greatest.  George W. Bush is probably the greatest, but Watergate/coverup comes close.

    And its been kill the bill and start over for weeks, why is it any different now?  I've been saying for weeks a very imperfect  bill with many good thing is a better to place to start than starting over.  Now its reconciliation or nothing.   So its still pretty much nothing that's being advocated for.

  •  Totally unclear post (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glynis, marabout40, boredwitnuts

    So are you saying pass the Senate bill (which you have been fighting for months, and months and months)?  If so, that is good advice, but the post would make more sense if you said I was wrong or I've changed my mind?

    I'm all for passing the Senate bill, but you've been telling "Progressives" to fight it.

    •  Historian, at this point . . . (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, NearlyNormal, TomP

      I gather the most effective and practical solution is to pass the Senate bill with the simultaneous passage of a reconciliation package of fixes to the Senate bill.

      Today is today, and this is where the fight resides.

    •  You fight the fights you have to at the time. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nyceve, TomP, caduceus4

      And fighting for the better option for months, then not fighting against the worse option when it's the only one left is not incongruous - especially if you can tie it to fixes for the things you fought against it for in the first place.

      Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:30:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's really come to this.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HPrefugee

        There's considerable consensus among progressives of every stripe that this healthcare attempt was 'botched' from the outset.

        Obama is to blame for remaining out of the process (the lesson learned from Clinton's botched attempt for which he over-reacted?).  Rahm is to be blamed for encouraging the Blue Dogs to "eff" (his words) the base who got them elected (looking a gift horse in the mouth much, Rahm?)

        The Democrats in the House botched it by permitting Stupid Stupak to gum up the works with his anti-abortion lingo at the final bell.

        The Democrats in the Senate botched it when they permitted "Snake in the Grass Grassley" to run the show...

        And then we had the freak show from Ben Nelson and his windfall profit from Medicare in Perpetuity for his state...The sideshow resident "freak" showed up and played President Lieberman...after President-ess Snowjob did her stint...what a cavalcade of assclowns have their fingerprint on this bill!
        It finally resulted in the worst bill we could ever have imagined...

        And lest we forget:  For every so-called "reform" in this bill, the insurance cons already have figured out their loophole....which will come to bear down the road.

        But, politically speaking, if they pass nothing, they're doomed, finished, finito, put the fork in them right now so....yes, with serious qualification, they MUST pass something and we're left holding the bag of tricks with a bill that's potentially the worst bill anyone could have imagined.

        "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

        by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:39:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Were we really serious about the 45,000 people (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, Cedwyn, bigmikek7

    dieing every year w/o health care?  Was that a joke?

    We were rightfully outraged when George Bush's "mistake" killed 4500 of our kids (and XXX Iraqis) on a fruitless search for nonexistent WMD.

    Now, if Democrats really believe their talk that 45,000 people die every year w/o health care...now the Democrats are in the same position.  How many people will your vote (or refusal to vote) kill?  How many people will go bankrupt?  How many lives will be disrupted?  Because you wanted to hold your job.

    I agree.  This has vast moral dimensions.  The "political" part of the defeat (if that's what it is) pales in comparison.

    "You can never sink so low in life that you can't be a bad example for somebody." - My Dad

    by briefer on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:22:44 AM PST

    •  I don't think you can make it that simplistic. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, bvig

      The last I heard, this bill will save 15k a year of those 45k.

      1/3.  Rightly or wrongly, people on the Democratic side who reject the bill do so because of the 30k a year it still leaves to die.  Whether you're for this bill or against, it's because on the whole you believe more people will be saved by either A) passing this bill and fighting for more, or B) fighting for more immediately, and keep fighting until there's a bill that saves either all, or significantly more than this one.

      So neither passing nor fighting implies immorality on the side of people fighting for something, as Dems do, not simply against anything, as the Repubs are.

      Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:54:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  People don't want this health insurance bill (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    miriam, SycamoreRich

    Americans are smart enough to know that the individual mandate (which started out as a Republican proposal, BTW) is a terrible idea.  Far from a "government takeover of health care," it's a health insurance industry takeover of government.

    Polls show this bill is unpopular, and politicians know that you don't get re-elected by voting for a bill most people hate.

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

    by rmwarnick on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:23:44 AM PST

  •  I'm more optimistic about state level (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    88kathy, TomP

    passage of meaningful health-care reform. I expect California or maybe some east coast state to pioneer this. I hope we can make it happen here in Calif by the end of this year or the next.

    "be a loyal plastic robot boy in a world that doesn't care" - Frank Zappa

    by Unbozo on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:24:14 AM PST

  •  What did the 500K Obama voters... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marabout40

    who stayed home in MA think would happen when a Republican got elected in MA statewide...get more ballsy?

    Right.../we get what we deserve...

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:24:14 AM PST

  •  Tipped and recommended, Eve (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, TomP

    I signed the petition, and my two Senators and several House members from my state (WA) have heard from me.

    "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

    by Ivan on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:27:25 AM PST

  •  Icky sentence alert. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, TomP, marabout40, bvig

    We've been sucker punched by a president and a political system which has proven to lack even a semblance of a moral compass.

    I'm pretty sure you mean the system lacks a moral compass, not the president, but the structure of the sentence leads to the possibility of ambiguity.

    You might want to rewrite that so as not to get a ton of 'you're an Obama hater' comments.

    Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Ezekial 23 20 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:27:50 AM PST

  •  Stripping mandate essential in reconciliation (4+ / 0-)

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:31:14 AM PST

  •  Dems can save their seats and win more, by: (12+ / 0-)

    pushing a one page bill through reconciliation that provides an immediate Medicare buy-in for every American citizen.  

    Allowing every American to buy into Medicare for five years would be the kind of immediate shock and awe kind of assistance that struggling Americans will be so incredibly appreciative, they'll start putting pictures of Obama, Reid and Pelosi up in their homes, like people used to do for FDR, after he impacted their lives.  

    There won't be Senators from OK or VA, there will be Senators from Citibank and WalMart. Maybe they'll wear insignias on their $500 suits, like NASCAR.

    by PJ Jefferson on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:31:21 AM PST

    •  PJ Jefferson, what a breathtaking solution (3+ / 0-)

      Yes indeed.

      But this can't happen in our corrupt country.

      Imagine!

      •  I'm just pointing out Dems aren't defenseless if (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nyceve, churchylafemme

        they don't want to be.  There is a way to fix this thing, at this point.  I'm with you that it will never happen, but part of holding their accountable is calling them liars when they claim there is nothing they can do.

        There won't be Senators from OK or VA, there will be Senators from Citibank and WalMart. Maybe they'll wear insignias on their $500 suits, like NASCAR.

        by PJ Jefferson on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:44:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Although reconciliation lasts only 5 yrs, the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nyceve, churchylafemme

      popularity of it will enable Congress to make it permanent, unlike George W. Bush's tax cuts, which he constantly urged to be made permanent, but were not popular enough.

      There won't be Senators from OK or VA, there will be Senators from Citibank and WalMart. Maybe they'll wear insignias on their $500 suits, like NASCAR.

      by PJ Jefferson on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:43:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, but that would take Courage and Leadership (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nyceve, PJ Jefferson

      It would also piss off their corporate sponsors.

    •  ain't gonna happen (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PJ Jefferson

      Do you want to work in this reality or the one we want?  I prefer to work in this reality and make it better.

      You have the power to change America. Yes. We. Can.

      by CA Pol Junkie on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:52:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If this reality is blackmailing me & every other (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        churchylafemme

        taxpayer into "covering" 30 million poor people, with coverage that doesn't even cover them, while my family and I continue to pay more and more for coverage that covers less and less, then count me out.

        Almost every single time someone in my family gets sick, the cure is not covered by our health insurance, whether it be a brace for my hand, or braces for my toewalking son's feet, or a visit to a neurologist, etc.

        The bill is a bailout for the insurance industry, it is crony capitalism, George W. Bush style, and a failure, and when voters are hurt instead of helped by it, they'll blame Democrats.

        At what price should we "insure" 30 million people with junk insurance "coverage"?  Is there EVER a price that is too steep?  

        What if the bill provided one trillion dollars to Halliburton every year for the next 100 years, but it also covered 30 million new people? Would you vote for that?

        There won't be Senators from OK or VA, there will be Senators from Citibank and WalMart. Maybe they'll wear insignias on their $500 suits, like NASCAR.

        by PJ Jefferson on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:24:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  No PO/No Mandate...PO with Mandate (0+ / 0-)

    This is the ONLY way Dems heads will not be on the line.

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:32:02 AM PST

  •  Let's face it - we are done for. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lupin, nyceve, pkbarbiedoll, Steve15

    This is history repeating.  Every empire, eventually, destroys itself.  And that's what's happening here.  We thought we could stop it last November, and we were wrong.  The Democrats are a weak, hapless group, incapable of governing because they lack the strength of their convictions, and in doing so they have left the American people helpless against corporate power.

    The Supreme Court put the final nail in our coffin yesterday.  We are going to hit rock bottom pretty soon, and it will be painful.  

    But once we do, we can start to rebuild.  That also is history repeating.

    And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make. Lennon/McCartney

    by landrew on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:33:31 AM PST

  •  Tipped & Rec'd and called Congressman (7+ / 0-)

    Thanks. I also called my Congressman because I wanted to tell him to support the Senate bill and fix it with reconciliation at the same time.

    The Senate bill and Reconciliation are incomplete without each other.

    Reconciliation can't do the things that the Senate bill does like eliminate restrictions on preexisting conditions, eliminate lifetime and annual caps, stop recision, or have the 10 to 14 billion dollars for community health clinics all over the US.

    Reconciliation can expand Medicare and Medicare benefits in addition to the expansion these programs get under the Senate bill. Reconciliation can also fix the excise tax that is terrible and will harm almost all middle class people in the near future when prices rise. Both these are both very important benefits of Reconciliation, which must be passed along with the Senate bill.

  •  Alright - emailed Rep Tsongas (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    Will call on Monday...

    There is no planet B

    by Minerva on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:40:27 AM PST

  •  I was hoping this was about torture (0+ / 0-)

    Because Obama does own it now.

    OTH, the healthcare crisis was and is a bipartisan creation we the left does NOT own it.  

    Out of my cold dead hands

    by bluelaser2 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:41:48 AM PST

  •  Wasn't I supposed to KILL the BILL??? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glynis, Triscula, marabout40, caduceus4

    I'm so confused.

  •  nyceve's DISHONEST chickens coming home to roost? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brillo, edwardssl, Wildthumb, marabout40

    Of course she can live in the moral safe house where she her "advocacy" is not complicit in this debacle.

    I love how this diary appeals to the authority of Krugman and Ezra, quoting them to give the appearance that they support what nyceve does. No mention of the fact that BOTH of them are urging the House to pass the Senate bill.

    Then there's the whole "all-private insurance is junk, but the excise tax dilutes medical beneifts." For God's sake, pick one.

    Then there's the incessant railing against the mandate without EVER mentioning the exemptions. EVER. OR any qualification on why the mandate is in the bill. NOT ONCE. No, its not because Democrats love insurance companies. C'mon eve, just one I'd love to hear from you what the policy rationale is for the mandate (even though you disagree). Can you handle acknowledging an intellectually argument you disagree with?

    •  Let's not get derailed here..too much work to do (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, 2laneIA, potatohead

      this is neither the time for personal attacks and "get even" scores....

      "progressive temper tantrum" is pretty obviously what you're doing.

      We've all moved beyond that stage and are doing the best we can with the hand we've been dealt.

      The reckoning will come later...but don't derail the unity we're now finding here about fighting for the party we believe in, please.

      "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

      by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:51:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Shhh (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2laneIA, potatohead, churchylafemme

      For once we're in agreement on the way forward. Pass and reconcile. We can return to our normal infighting at a later date.

      •  it's actually a legitimate question (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brillo

        I've read comments in both slink's and Eve's diaries by people confused by this new tactic.  If it was a "piece-of-crap" before how can you push for passage now?  And these folks aren't getting an answer from them either.

        I've said the obvious.  It really wasn't as bad as they were lead to believe.

        Coalition does not equal unholy alliance--Deoliver47

        by glynis on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:48:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep, Very Obvious. (0+ / 0-)

          Faced with the reality of what their several month long quest to kill the bill actually means, I think they've realized just how fucking straight up stupid, wrong, dishonest, and yes, I'll say it- immoral their actions have been.

  •  Email: Senate bill + fix via reconciliation (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CA Pol Junkie, slinkerwink, Minerva

    Flood them with email and phone calls on this Friday so they hear us.

    "If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

    by caduceus4 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:45:03 AM PST

  •  can we send our sick to Haiti for surgery? (0+ / 0-)

    I mean, I know people who need surgery but for now they could help out some with clinics, handing out food and water, and WAIT THEIR TURN for medical care they can't get in the US.

    As for dramatic action, I think this would get some publicity, nyceve.

    No public option, no peace.

    by Chun Yang on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:46:24 AM PST

  •  Out of curiosity, who is this petition (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drache

    sponsored by.  In other words, who is the "we" in "we'll deliver your message"?  Just curious.

    "Put your big-girl panties on and deal with it." -- Stolen from homogenius, who in turn stole it from a coffee mug.

    by Mother of Zeus on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:48:10 AM PST

  •  By the way, would you be kind enough (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glynis, drache, bvig

    to provide some factual support for this:

    We've been sucker punched by a president.

    "Put your big-girl panties on and deal with it." -- Stolen from homogenius, who in turn stole it from a coffee mug.

    by Mother of Zeus on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:49:12 AM PST

  •  The President can act - but will he? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    They only call it class war when we fight back!

    by ezdidit on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:52:17 AM PST

  •  Greatest moral catastrophe of this generation? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edg, Christian Wright

    You know, I agree that they need to pass a bill and suspect that simply passing the senate bill in the house is probably the most realistic way to go forward as long as Stupak doesn't manage to kill it.  But is this situation the greatest moral catastrophe of this generation?  Not passing a bill will be a big political mistake. But somehow every doctrinal disagreement on health care has become an issue to make shrill pronouncements about moral failure.  I don't care much whether they pass sections piecemeal, or just pass the senate version, as long as they move forward and don't simply declare defeat and go home.

    I can't help thinking that we play into the Republican hands by some of the over-the-top rhetoric around here - failure on the healthcare front means it's all over in 2010. Or not passing a public option means that the Republic as we know it is coming to an end. It seems to me that Jim DeMint said that health care would be Obama's Waterloo.  Obama's helping to make that a reality by not being more engaged and by backing down.  But we're helping DeMint turn this into our Waterloo by inflating the importance of this legislation into the "greatest moral failing of a generation" and predicting the death of the entire progressive movement if it fails.  Frankly, the Bush Administration was the greatest moral failure of a generation or maybe a century. It would do us well to remember that.

    "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

    by ivorybill on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:58:16 AM PST

  •  NY Times comparison (0+ / 0-)

    Require insurance plans to offer a minimum package of health insurance benefits, to be defined by the federal government.

    House version
    The basic plan would cover 70 percent of the cost of the benefits
    and would limit out-of-pocket spending at $5,000 a year for individuals and $10,000 for families. Consumers would pay the remainder, in deductibles, co-payments and other charges. The out-of-pocket limits would be reduced for people with incomes below 400 percent of the federal poverty level ($88,200 for a family of four).

    The exchange would offer three other benefit plans, covering up to 95 percent of costs. The Congressional Budget Office says policies bought in the individual insurance market now average 55 percent to 60 percent.

    Senate version
    The basic plan would cover 60 percent of the cost of the benefits
    and would limit out-of-pocket spending at $5,950 a year for individuals and $11,900 for families. The out-of-pocket limits would be reduced for people with incomes below 400 percent of the poverty level.

    The exchanges would offer three other benefit plans, covering 70 percent to 90 percent of costs. A plan for catastrophic coverage would be available to people up to the age of 30 and those who are exempt from the requirement to obtain insurance.

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

  •  Where'd did the petition to KILL the BILL go? (6+ / 0-)

    Shouldn't we give them a heads' up that this one is coming, as this is going to be awfully confusing to them?

    Does anyone wonder how we got here?

    We could've thrown our full throated support behind this very same Senate bill before, gotten it passed, and then made substantial changes through the less laborious, less publicized Senate Budget Appropriations process to achieve the same (or likely much better) result as this petition asks for in half the time.

    This on the heels of:

    - a single payer or nothing petition - a P.O. or nothing petition - a KILL the BILL petition

    which all commanded our leaders to hear us and do nothing at all versus doing...well...I guess what we're commanding them to do now.

    All the while, many of us scratched our heads in awe of what appeared to be, to us novices, a collossal political miscalculation and a strategy doomed to end up...well...here. Despite warnings from Obama. From Dean. From Pelosi. From Reid. Of course, we labeled them all feckless and weak and unworthy of our ear.

    I'll say again -- I LOVE your passion and messages (usually) eve. I obviously want what you want. But all along the way, you pushed a rigid means to get somewhere that was politically risky, potential counterproductive, and you were warned. Focusing on primarying "bad Dems" BEFORE we push full-bore for electing MORE Dems is the same foolishness. I am now PLEADING with you to listen for once, and send the message to "your folks". There is no more appropriate time to offer you this than in a diary proclaiming that DEMS own this.

    You never did say - WHICH Dems exactly?? Are you in the mix?

  •  My great fear.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    ....is that the Democrats have abandoned all sense of electoral self-preservation and are actually trying to lose, hence the total fuck-ups. God only knows why.

  •  i can't remember such a bad week, losing the (0+ / 0-)

    fillibuster proff senate and the bush supreme court throwing out campaign fin reform. I can see the health insurance industry gearing up for 2010.

    •  I can...any week during the Bush presidency (0+ / 0-)

      Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. ~ Reinhold Niebuhr

      by bvig on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:16:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Try studying some history (0+ / 0-)

      It'll give you a better sense of perspective. (For instance, the Supreme Court has screwed up before, and will again. Sometimes a later Court fixes it, sometimes Congress does, sometimes we muddle along until the bottom falls out and it HAS to be fixed.)

      If it's
      Not your body
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      AND it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:39:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Where do we go from here? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    2laneIA, codairem

    Before we can move ahead we have to know where we are.  Watching what passes for Democratic leadership is embarrassing and maddening.  In 2008 we convinced ourselves we were electing a leader to be president, and we were delivering him the voting body in congress he needed to get things done.  Neither has been the case.  Obama’s hands-off, zen-like style does not work.  Our nation expects a leader.  Within Congress there should have been an absolute commitment that anyone in a leadership position would support the President’s agenda.  That did not happen.  Unless these two things change, as a party, democrats are going nowhere.

  •  They'll be fine. They'll become lobbyists! nt (0+ / 0-)

    No more money for non-progressive Democrats from me, ever.

    by iconoclastic cat on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:09:25 AM PST

  •  A small quibble (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, SpecialKinFlag

    I haven't agreed with everything nyceve writes -- but that's the point of a democracy. I think she's made some good points on this one, but I have one small quibble.

    I don't think she's using "Democrat" correctly. Or, rather, she's using it in two different ways. And she's not the only one.

    Just because you caucus with the Democrats doesn't make you a Democrat. It's like when articles say, "The government did X." No. A person did X. Someone, somewhere made a decision.

    In the same sort of way, there's a lot of "the Dems aren't working hard enough for health care reform."

    The Dems ARE working for health care reform. People pretending to be Democrats are the ones who aren't.

    The biggest problem the party faces now is not the "distraction" of conflicting interests. It's that the party has not established (or chooses to not focus on) goals first. "We're for X and Y and Z. And now that that's decided on, we can clearly and cleanly draw the line in the sand. Democrats are for X and Y and Z, even if they don't support Z because the party must remain united if it is to be effective."

    As it is, unless Obama really has an enormous October Surprise (and it would have to be gigantic) in the wings, nyceve is right: the Democratic Party is going to be wiped out in the 2010 elections.

    •  Thanks for your comment, adering (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, SpecialKinFlag

      here's the other point, if all the rhetoric is to be believed, we've been told (and I happen to agree with this) that without "reform" premiums will consume something like 40% of our income in a couple of years. so this is a true cataclysm, if the status quo remains.

      Before long, we'll have 60 million uninsured and the rest of us in medical bankruptcy, or worse.

      •  Phase II (0+ / 0-)

        I think that medicine is currently somewhere in the second of three phase. The three phases occur in a lot of things. I'll use computers as an example.

        Phase 1: Computers are massive, unwieldy, expensive and require a lot of training. Only a few people actually use them. Punch cards. Magnetic tape. Hours of programming for very simple tasks.

        Phase 2: A lot of people use computers. They're still expensive, but not as much as before. More people have exposure to them and understand how to use them enough that the systems no longer require geniuses to make them useful in many business settings. Smaller storage media. Programs are more interactive, prompting for a few pieces of information and extrapolating from those.

        Phase 3: The computer is ubiquitous and inexpensive. Improvements continue, requiring very talented people, but as the systems become more advanced, less talent is necessary to get a lot of things done on the individual-consumer level. Like going to a Home Depot where you can buy the carved wood ornamentals for the baseboards rather than having to learn how to use a lathe yourself and lose a finger.

        Medicine is now somewhere in Phase 2. It's still expensive, but that's now becoming a technological bottleneck, which can be resolved with technology (and when stem cells finally get going -- which will happen when some Republican Holier Than Thouer's kid breaks his spine).

        I don't think medical costs will continue to rise for much longer. Soon (say in 10 years, which is no comfort to people who have to file for bankruptcy in the next year or so), the economic pressure that will result when S. Korea or China or India or Monaco comes up with stem-cell generated replacement organs on a large scale (like with contact lenses or insulin, remember what those were like at the beginning) will cause medical costs to drop remarkably.

        Perhaps new therapies will come along that will cost a fortune, but I think that once we arrive at the point where diabetes can be fixed with a new pancreas, dialysis joins the iron lung because of new kidneys, etc., we'll see a massive drop.

  •  There's a way of rallying Kossacks to sign your (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, glynis, bvig, zapus

    petition without attacking the president. I used to like and defend this diarist, but I've given up on her.

    Take a cue from Alan Grayson and Howard Dean, who know how to fight for healthcare or other progressive issues
    without saying that Obama is our enemy or burning their bridges behind them.

  •  If they pass something shitty, like the Senate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, codairem

    bill as it is, they will also take a "wholloping".  So, opassing anything for the sake of passing it is not the solution.

    The outrage people feel now, greater than with Bush, is very simple.  The wolf at the door you can be fearful and angry at, but you are still whole and healthy within strategizing your resistance.  The cancer within, however, that is the real death sentence-- your resources, your own "body" cannot be count upon.  Rahm, DLC corpra-whore-dems, etc. are our cancer within and that is something to be really afraid of and angry at.  Couple that with the  "bipartisanship" tango which is paralyzing us while the Cancer eats us from within.  

    Until enough people feel enough pain in a short enough amount of time, things will not change in any significant way.  We cannot educate enough people fast enouigh in sufficient numbers to avoid the pain.  The pot of water is boiling and getting hotter!!  

    The Dems, Obama especially, seem to be good at turning down the heat just enough to stop us from jumping out of the boiling pot and get us ready for thre next rise in the flames.  I am done with that.  

    Obama and the Dems need to wake up, get the pot off the flames, or be cast into obscurity.  


    We the People in order to establish Justice, Defense, Welfare, Liberty do establish the US of A. That is what America is about!

    by FightTheFuture on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:16:58 AM PST

  •  Primaries are not just for (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    Representatives and Senators

    LBJ saw the writing on the wall

    There is a wall today also

  •  cracks me up (4+ / 0-)

    The policy ideas change in a snap, but it's always Obamas fault.

    The "kill the bill" people, having their fatal goal at hand, now blame the President for not "leading" Congress to vote for the bill.

  •  I was at a community gathering last night (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    iconoclastic cat, nyceve, oortdust

    that included some local politicians and Dem activists.  This is small-town rural Midwest and their eyes are rolling too.  The Democrats are being ridiculed by their own party for being so imcompetent they can't pass a health care bill with majorities in both houses and control of the White House.

    "We have met the enemy, and he is not us."

    by 2laneIA on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:23:56 AM PST

  •  Please shut up (0+ / 0-)

    "we have been sucker punched by the President" I mean, c' mon. You sound like a petulant teenager. Keep going, undermine the President more, and in a couple years we can have Bush II or whatever, at least I agreed with your whining in those days.

    Everything passes, everything changes, just do what you think you should do-B.D

    by defndr on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:25:46 AM PST

  •  I could say more. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, Wildthumb

    But I'll just say this on one small point which I think leads to a larger question about these kind of diaries: It is utterly, and completely, inane to compare one blog post, even by a Nobel Prize winning economist, to the loss of Ted Kennedy's seat, itself an important event that is being overblown. Also, may I remind the universe that Krugman was never actually in any way, shape or form entirely on board with this administration. I hardly need remind anyone of his withering criticism of Obama during the campaign. What he wrote saddened, and I very much respect him, but it is, after all, nothing more than one man's opinion and in no way a political earthquake.

    At least this diary is a call to action, but I don't see the doom and gloom as productive.

    Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

    by LABobsterofAnaheim on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:25:50 AM PST

  •  Drop Medicare Age to 55 (5+ / 0-)

    Putting in this key nonlegislative step into a reconciliation bill will provide a huge block of grateful voters -- not only people 55-64 who are unemployed or in jobs paying way less than they used to have, but will also ensure that people approaching 55 see a safety net that the GOP would deny them. This is a big political winner.

    Indian border guard, 1959: "May I ask, are you the Lord Buddha?" Dalai Lama: "I think that I am a reflection, like the moon on water."

    by easong on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:30:53 AM PST

  •  This is a morale contrastrophe and WE own it. (0+ / 0-)

    I really think some here are bi-polar.

    But we've been told politics is a blood sport, so why in the world should we think politicians are motivated by anything other than the next election. They're not, and take it to the bank folks, if Democrats fail to pass "something", they will take the whooping of their lives in November, and the defeat will be richly deserved.

    Yeah, some here knew that.  And this...

    We've been sucker punched by a president. And tragically, we have a political system which has proven to lack even a semblance of a moral compass. Crocodile tears for the 45,000 Americans who die every year simply because they don't have access to healthcare, but when it comes to the courage to take difficult votes, they run for the hills.  Shame on this government.

    I've tried to be the voice for Americans who are dying before

    Does anyone remember the multiple diaries of "kill the bill" that stood alone without any "forward" ideas to improve it like what's stated in this diary?  Amazing.

    Their wasn't a single idea here in the last two months to fix this bill.  It was all or nothing.  Now that desperation has set in, there's a plethora of ideas.  But "we've been sucker punched by the president?"  

    I've been sucker punched by this site.  You all have the wrong activists leading this movement.  Maybe there's no leader at all.  Maybe that's the problem.

    I'll do whatever it takes to pass this bill.  Though imperfect, its the right thing to do.  But if its too little to late, we can only blame ourselves.

    You flip-floppers better get it together because the base I speak to are embarrassed and some are laughing at you.

  •  Signed, Sealed, Sent. Eve, I like this: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, nyceve

    You think if these cowards couldn't access healthcare, we'd get something?

    Oh that we could do that to them.

    I really don't understand how bipartisanship is ever going to work when one of the parties is insane. - John Cole

    by Gorette on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:33:48 AM PST

  •  This is not the answer (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, efraker

    More pretty pictures and orders to shut up and let the "pragmatists" handle this provide the answer.

    OK.

    Deal, kids.

  •  I am fairly confused (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    I don't know what option I support by now.

    •  I can understand why (0+ / 0-)

      the truth is the Senate bill was never as bad as you were lead to believe.  

      The unions have never been as down as diarists here have been.  They've always pointed out the good parts of the bill and the parts they thought needed to be fixed.  

      The parts they want fixed can be fixed by reconciliation which is why unions are saying the House should pass the Senate bill and the Senate should take up reconciliation to fix those parts.

      Listen to the unions.

      Coalition does not equal unholy alliance--Deoliver47

      by glynis on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:33:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm in the Not Another Penny group (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    and Not Another Minute of my time. Not until they pass health care. I called Schakowsky (my Rep) and Durbin to let their offices know just that.

    "This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected." - Barack Obama (3.18.08)

    by lapis on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:37:47 AM PST

  •  Hey Eve! Correct the title! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    Correct it to:

    Democrats: this is a moral catastrophe and WE own it.

    That is, if you're a Democrat. I like you and agree with you 98% of the time, but I find this you bizness off-putting.

    We are in this together aren't we?  This is still a site to promote Democrats, I hope.

    It's the fascism, stupid!

    by lastman on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 09:40:49 AM PST

  •  We've been sucker punched by a president. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Themistoclea, boredwitnuts

    Bullshit!!!

    Healthcare reform is where Democratic politicians go to die for the past 60 years. It's never been close to being achieved and yet President Obama made it the signature piece of his agenda during his first year; an historically impossible legislative attempt that has buried Democratics for decades.

    He could've done the easy thing and put it off till later, say maybe till after the 2010 elections or after the 2012 elections, if he was re-elected.

    I don't know what people expect out of President Obama.

    He didn't want to take a top-down approach like President Clinton, which didn't even get HCR very far with a Democratically controlled House and Senate in 1994.

    HCR is further along than it has ever been. I don't know how that's being "sucker punched".

    •  Do you know (0+ / 0-)

      who you just gave you name, address, and email to?

      If so, let the rest of us know. Mabye then many more of us would sign that petition.

      "Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day" - Thomas Jefferson

      by sangemon on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:23:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What I meant to say was... (0+ / 0-)

      What we expect from our President is some leadership.

      He has been a big disappointment in that regard.

      "Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day" - Thomas Jefferson

      by sangemon on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:26:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  NYCEVE this is a tactical catastrophe you own (0+ / 0-)

    Here you are on Dec 19

    If you go to the AHIP web site, you'll notice that their last official news update came on November 19th. Go the AHIP achieve, also nothing since the 19th.

    There's no doubt, this miserable lobbyist, knows silence, not gloating or even a comment, is the way to react to the legislation giveaway.

    They've won--everything.

    Operational silence from AHIP.

    Since we're on the verge of passing a totally pro-industry bill, AHIP which represents the universally loathed for-profit insurance industry, is going to ground. This is the only way to greet their great victory, and our tremendous loss.

    OOPS! That was nonsense.
    But on  December 17

    If I say I feel deeply betrayed, I'll be met with a chorus of people making the legitimate claim that this depraved giveaway to the insurance corporations legislation is progress. Yeah, sure, just like the $300 check from George Bush.

    Sadly, if you keep an open mind and listen to people  like Howard Dean and Wendell Potter the bill is riddled with loopholes and curveballs against the American people and in favor of the insurance corporations.

    This is the bill you now say must be passed.
    And on Nov 24

    We must pass a healthcare reform bill with a robust public option, and it appears that we can only do that through the reconciliation process.

       We need you to sign this petition which will be delivered to Majority Leader Reid.  If I can be there to deliver it personally on behalf of all of you and the American people, I'll do it!

    Good God!

    •  hi citizen k, great nyceve research . . . (4+ / 0-)

      You're entitled of course, to your opinion.

      I'm not saying the Senate bill is good, I'm saying, this problems needs to be solved and if the House passes the Senate bill with the patches, which might even (per Howard Dean) include a Medicare buy in, at least, there will be something for us to build on.

      Is a public option essential? Yes.

      Is a mandate w/o a public option good politics? No.

      Do we need something in order to start the fight to improve it? Yes.

      Doing nothing is unacceptable. The Senate bill is bad. We are running out of options.  

      •  i agree it must be passed (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nyceve, glynis

        i wish that you folks had realized this a couple of months ago.

        •  that's right (0+ / 0-)

          because if it could be built on now it could have been built on then.

          I've come to the conclusion that there was no planning behind any of the positions.  Just lurch from one thing to another based on the crisis of the week.

          Very poor way to get anything meaningful done.

          And you end up in the bind of now trying to advocate for a position that you denigrated only a few weeks earlier.  Hurts your credibility.

          And even this newest tactic isn't well thought out.  The petition says something different than what the comments say.  People are asking why should they support this "piece-of-crap" bill now.  There is no unified message (which Congress is criticized for all the time) which leads to confusion and mixed messages.

          Coalition does not equal unholy alliance--Deoliver47

          by glynis on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:28:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  A reader comment in the NY Times (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DelRPCV, nyceve, vivens fons, Themistoclea

    Our current healthcare system will bankrupt 85% of our working citizens before they reach 65. If you're in your mid-50's, raise the issue of bankruptcy at your office to see what people think of it - and see how many folks have already filed for it. We had such a discussion in our office and 17 out of 20 people said they had filed at some point in their lives. The pauperization of the American workforce.

    http://community.nytimes.com/...

  •  I'm behind this diary and petition. But... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, keeplaughing

    ...the greatest moral collapse of our generation...

    ?

    Sorry that was the AUMF by the U.S. Congress of October 2002.

    That's moral collapse involving a barrage of cruise missiles and smart bombs raining on innocents.

  •  Honestly (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OLinda, nyceve

    I think they all just want it to go away.

  •  Obama is PETRIFIED of the Republicans (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    He is also PETRIFIED of the Republican Pentagon and the Republican CIA.

    He is also PETRIFIED of lunatic right-wingers bringing guns so close to his rallies.

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to fight the republicans and govern properly when you are PETRIFIED of the Republicans.

    Ed Schultz for President!!!

  •  Hair's all burnt off. Now what? (0+ / 0-)

    No shortage of hyperbole but sheesh this seems like the 73rd hair on fire barricade to man.

    As far as "every" Democrat owning the problem, nope. A majority of Democrats have pushed hard for real reform and quite a few have torpedoed reform so we need to reward the good guys and keep on the bad guys.

  •  reminds me of dealing w/ young technocrats (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, SpringtimeforHitler

    on many local issues. They have a good heart i think but they get into these bizarre complicated plans that turn into Rube Goldberg devices for reform that no one understands or supports. You have to keep it simple to get support and in this case the regulatory reforms and medicare extension is the simple way. Everyone understands medicare and all but the very worst wingnuts support it.

  •  Sigh.... We are all responsible. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not referring to our unparalleled ability to turn on the only partners we have in this struggle.  That particular progressive predilection is obvious for everyone to see, especially on dailykos.

    I'm referring to the greedy, comsumerist culture for which our country has been known throughout the world for half a century or more.

    Riches are our god.  Heated/cooled square footage, rather than character, is, in societal terms, how we measure the quality of our citizens. Number and cost of the cars we have, the trips we take, the gadgets we own are all part of our valuation system.  Even our supposed populist heroes have gigantic homes and even larger bank accounts.

    Until we change the way American society defines what is really important in life, the "American Dream" and will continue to be defined by how much money we have. And that, the desire for ever more money, is what drives the shareholders' market.  And shareholders, including those with small mutual funds, are the humans behind the corporate menace.

    Political musical chairs won't change a thing.  We need a serious cultural revolution.  Blaming the Democrats is immature and silly.

    See everything, overlook a great deal, improve a little. John XXIII

    by keeplaughing on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:05:03 AM PST

  •  Scott Brown = White Rabbit (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loose Fur, SpringtimeforHitler

    Watching the post election mayhem reminds me of this scene.

  •  Get a grip on yourself. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    codairem

    Health insurance is not a crisis and is certainly not THE biggest crisis facing us today. I'm self-employed and have no health insurance. When I need a doctor, I pay out of pocket. Sure, it would be nice to have insurance again, but there are far more pressing matters on my mind.

    For example, sales in our business dropped by 1/3 in 2009. Business credit is essentially unavailable. Inflation is running rampant, perhaps not in the phony government statistics but where it really counts: at the producer and wholesale leve. I pay 60% more to purchase products for resale than I did two years ago.

    In addition, unemployment is running rampant. My neighbors across the street lost their house to foreclosure after being laid off. My next door neighbor lost his house after being laid off. The people who bought his house, an nice young couple in their 30s, are preparing to take in the husband's parents because his father was laid off and they lost their house.

    So, it is really immature and idiotic of you and others to claim that no health insurance reform is the end of the world. Out here in the real world, it is item 101 on the list of top 100 problems.

    •  Bullshit. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cartwrightdale, MrJersey, Plox

      You have no grip on reality, you immature insurance company shill.

      The United States is the ONLY western nation without national health care. And you are one of the idiots that is actually proud of that pathetic fact.

      "I do not know what the Democratic Party spent on the 2004 election, but what they have gotten for it is Barack Obama. Let us savor."-Piggy Noonan

      by Loose Fur on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:37:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kiss off asshat. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        codairem

        I am deeply saddened that the US does not have Medicare For All as Ted Kennedy wanted and proposed. I think it is criminal that people must go without needed healthcare because we decided to turn our healthcare system into a for-profit industry under dear President Nixon.

        And I don't appreciate the fact that you jumped to conclusions and started calling me names without even knowing me or what I stand for. So please do us all a favor and crawl back under the rock you emerged from.

        •  Whoa hang on (0+ / 0-)

          Nixon's proposed health care bill was MILES better than anything Democrats have proposed in my lifetime.  The Nixon plan would have covered ALL Americans with costs shared between the employer and the government.  For anyone who didn't get health care coverage from their employer, they would be provided with a government plan based on their income level.  And preexisting conditions could never be used to deny coverage.

          Read this:  http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/...

          Seriously, take the time to read it all.  It is so staggeringly more "liberal" than anything proposed by modern progressives that it will make you cry.

          Ah, hell, looks like we won't be able to make the touchdown after all, so even though we're in field goal range, lets just give the ball to the other guys.

          by cartwrightdale on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:12:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Lack of health insurance is not a problem when (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MewZ, klamothe, SpecialKinFlag, kareylou

      just pay the physician out of pocket for a sore throat and pay for a few antibiotics to fix it.  What happens, however, should you be unlucky enough to develop a cancer that will require years of treatment with radiation therapy, or chemotherapy, or perhaps a bone marrow, or stem cell transplant, and you are uninsured, at that point uninsurable, and you do not have the money to pay for it.  At that point, a business reverse, or living with family members, as serious as that is, pales beside the comparison that without the means to medical treatment, you will wake up one morning dead.  So I would ask you to get a grip on yourself, lack of health insurance is a crisis if you are sick and have no way of accessing medical help.  I would say that it is short sighted, if no just as idiotic and immature to think that a business reverse is more serious that access to healthcare in a wealthy country such as ours.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:43:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wish I could rec more than once (6+ / 0-)

        I felt just the way the edg felt, a few years ago. healthy as a horse, didn't drink, didn't smoke, ran half-marathons, self-employed. Then I was diagnosed with cancer.
        Wisdom is knowing that time and chance happen to us all.
        Fools like edg and myself only figure that out when it hits us in the face.  

        To keep our faces turned toward change, and behave as free spirits in the presence of fate, that is strength undefeatable--Helen Keller

        by kareylou on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:54:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please don't stereotype. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          codairem

          I am not healthy as a horse. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis and we pay a fortune for her meds. I have heart problems and erosive esophagitis. We would gladly participate in a decent, reasonably priced health plan.

          BUT. The Senate plan is a piece of garbage and it's time to reboot.

      •  Good points, all. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        codairem

        But you fail to justify why the Senate's piece of crap should be supported when it does little or nothing to achieve what you say is needed.

        •  Isn't nyceve for reconciliation, not senate bill? (0+ / 0-)

          My problem is I don't know which way to go.

          Right now, there are compelling diaries to vote the senate bill in and there are compelling diaries (such as this one) to fight for reconciliation.  

          I'd prefer to fight, but no one has explained to me how they're going to get around the procedural votes in reconciliation that require 60 votes?  There's like 4 of them, right?  Seems impossible even with a few republican votes as weak, selfish dems fail.

          The Senate bill is a pice of crap but it could get actually be done now.  Then we could fight to fix it through new legislation or reconciliation for a few years before it actually kicks in.  The congress and the white house would be compelled to fix the major flaws, such as the excise tax or it will kill them in november.  I used to be against the senate bill all the way.  But now, I don't think we can get anything else because the SCOTUS decision is going to effect everything this november and dems are either scared or lining up corporate sponsorship right now.

          If we do nothing, there will be nothing. EVER. And the economy will never recover as health care overwhelms us.  And yes, jobs are a crisis, housing is a crisis, the economy is a crisis. Health care is a crisis as well, as so many have pointed out in response to your comment.

          The senate bill at least establishes that health care or at least insurance IS something the government should be involved in.  We can build on that.  Reconciliation has more potential, but may not make it.  So for now, I'm leaning towards supporting passing the senate bill.  I thinks that it does a lot more than nothing.

          •  I can't see either the Senate bill or ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dicentra

            reconciliation passing now. Do you truly think "Blue Dog" Democrats are going to support ANY health insurance bill after they saw what happened in a state where Dems outnumber Reps 3 to 1? They have an election coming up in 10 months and right now they're crapping their pants about their own re-election.

            •  That all depends on what their constituents want. (0+ / 0-)

              If they even know.  Or the effort going on in the house and senate described on the FP right now may find a way. What would really help is Obama getting his ass down there and pulling them together.  I think he can still do that.

              Just curious, did anything I wrote have any impact on your feelings about the either bill?

              •  Impact? (0+ / 0-)

                I'm an old guy (age 54) and have never seen a bill improved after it's initial passage. Any bill that benefits ordinary people gets weakened or repealed when Republicans are in charge. If you could assure me that we'll only have Democratic governance from now on, then I might buy into the "pass the crap, make it craptastic later" argument.

    •  And the Republicans will seek to block (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme

      any plan to remedy the situations you've outlined, just as they have health care.

      That's why this matters.  NYCEve is right on the money.  

    •  I'm self-employed too (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MewZ, Back In Blue, kareylou

      But I have a pre-existing condition called Type 1 (Juvenile) Diabetes.  It is a disease that cannot be caused, prevented, nor cured in any way.  

      My state doesn't require insurance companies cover those with pre-existing conditions, so none do.  My state doesn't allow sole prop business owners to buy into group plans, and doesn't allow "groups of one" policies.  

      So I spend nearly half of my income -- thousands and thousands of dollars each month -- just to stay alive, and I still have to constantly reuse needles (often dozens of times until the metal is ready to break off into my skin), postpone tests my doctor wants me to have, see my endocrinologist only once a year instead of the four times a year he recommends, etc.  

      In any other industrialized nation, I could live a healthy life and grow my business and contribute more into the economy.  In this one, nearly every penny I make has to go just to bare survival.  (Oh sure, you say, I could just go get another job with health care, right?  YEAH RIGHT.  In my state, with 25%+ unemployment?  HA.)

      So yay, good for you that you don't have anything wrong with you.  On my side, I'm not going to get to live long enough to see my little girl get married, and not be able to provide her with much of a life during the years I have.  

      By the way, what happens if you get hit by a bus, or get cancer, or come down with a horrible illness?  Do you seriously not understand that you will lose absolutely everything -- your house, car, accounts, every penny you have ever made?  YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING.  Your family will be RUINED COMPLETELY.  And you'll never ever ever ever ever be able to get insurance for the future.  

      You might think that gamble is worth it.  I can only assume (hope) that you do not have children.

      Ah, hell, looks like we won't be able to make the touchdown after all, so even though we're in field goal range, lets just give the ball to the other guys.

      by cartwrightdale on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:04:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Big assumptions on your part. (0+ / 0-)

        You seem good at tarring and feathering without knowing who you're doing the deed to. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis. She woke up one morning to find her left thumb joint had disappeared and her thumb just flops loosely on her hand.

        She uses Enbrel to keep the disease partially under control. It costs $18,000 per year. We have invested in our business in such a way as to keep our personal income down to a level where she got the drug through a foundation the past two years. We pay out of pocket for the other drugs she needs.

        I have a heart condition that remains untreated, plus bursitis in both shoulders, a bad knee, a bad back, and recently, neuropathy in both legs.

        Our state, Arizona, does have a group plan for small businesses but it does not cover pre-existing conditions like mine or my wife's.

        As for understanding my predicament, please don't insult me. I'm 54 and only pray that I can make it another 11 years until I qualify for Medicare. Or that Democrats grow a pair and pass Medicare for all.

        It's time to admit we (Dems, that is) made a mistake. We should have encouraged President Obama to spend his first two years in office fixing the economy and growing the Democratic majority in Congress, and only then try to pass a health insurance bill, preferably Ted Kennedy's 2007 "Medicare For All" act.

        But we f-ed up big time. We're going to reduce or lose the Democratic majority, and we've handed repubs an early ticket out of the political wilderness.

        There's no way any "Blue Dog" Dem in the House is gonna risk his/her seat by voting for the Senate bill, much less for reconciliation. They're crapping their pants after seeing what happened in Massachusetts. The election is only 10 months away!!!

        So please don't stereotype and demean me as you did in your comment without knowing who I am and where I'm coming from. You and I are what Democrats are fighting for with health insurance reform. We should NOT be fighting each other.

    •  Your neighbors that lost their house (0+ / 0-)

      and the father who lost his job more than likely had their problems compounded by losing their health insurance.  

  •  Do you feel that you beat any part of that? (0+ / 0-)

    We know that victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan?  So what would you have done differently, in hindsight to get the HC bill passed?

  •  petition (0+ / 0-)

    I like your first idea best. How 'bout a petition to take away the House and Senate members' health insurance?

  •  There comes a time... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, codairem

    ...when you simply run out of passion!  I rallied for Obama's ideas.  I took horrendous verbal abuse for standing with him, and others, who backed him.  And I STILL DO.  I donated money I honestly did not have to donate. And I wasn't naive.  I didn't expect the road to be easy.  I knew full well that the Republicans would play dirty, or not at all. But my God, I at least expected my own party to try.  

    Bottom line? I'm just tired.  Tired of "having" to continue to fight.  Tired of having to explain, or take up for the debacle that the Democrats have become.  I'm going to take a rest now.

  •  I don't own shit (0+ / 0-)

    I ain't got the money to buy politician's votes.

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, [...] Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
    President Lincoln, December 3, 1861

    by notrouble on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:42:32 AM PST

    •  Then it would appear that you are fucked because (0+ / 0-)

      in the current political environment, the strength of your ideas matter less than the strength of the politicians that you are able to purchase.

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:47:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  35,000 corporate lobbyists millions of $$$... (0+ / 0-)

    ...that's the problem. We have been sold a bill of goods and sold down the river! They have pissed down our backs and told us it's raining liquid gold! And if you think we've got it rough now, that democracy was on life support you ain't seen nothing yet! Thanks to the scotus decision yesterday, the Health Care-Industrialist Complex is going to open the floodgates. They will not just spend millions-now they will spend BILLIONS!! It's not any one party's fault. The problem is systemic. The problem is Corporate America has overthrown our government with the finality the way that no military coup d'etat could have done it, and they have done it without even firing a shot! But they still kill 45,000 Americans a year who have no or inadequate insurance.

    "Peace is the protector of genius. War is the mortal enemy of both peace and genius."

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:43:59 AM PST

  •  There is and only has been one idea, elect a (0+ / 0-)

    Democratic Senate. A true Democratic Senate. Not one with 5 or 10 of the Dems from red states. WE didn't do the job. You go to your job, have everybody stop everything you try to do and see how you are talked about. Remember, no blaming the obstructionists... it's all on you. It's your job. If you can't get it done because 10 people ruin everything you try to do, it's your fault.

    Oh, and don't forget to have a million people a day writing your boss to say what a rotten person you are and what a bad job you do.

    •  A Democratic Senate from red states will not be (3+ / 0-)

      possible.  Instead, our existing Democratic majority should have done their job and challenged the filibuster threat.  Make the Republicans actually use, rather than threaten the filibuster and let the American people see right there on CSPAN what a filibister in support of corporate interests looks like, sounds like, and smells like and force the Republicans to go on the air every night to explain their obstructionism night after night after night after night until the American public sees what is happening and a Collins or Snowe eventually folds and healthcare is passed.  That's what I thought I elected the Democrats that we have to do in the Senate.  

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:53:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A NY Times reader: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, dicentra

    Professor Krugman, you are an Ivy League professor with a media presence and a Nobel Prize, so perhaps you do not understand how awful this Senate bill is.

    It requires people to buy insurance, but it does not require the insurance companies to make it either affordable or useful. The "affordability" criteria do not account for regional differences in average income. High deductibles, unknown in most other countries, are still permitted, which means that people can pay thousands of dollars per year in premiums and still have to pay large sums (LARGE sums) out of pocket. The stated purposes of high deductibles are to prevent hypochondriacs from running to the doctor for every sniffle and to make people "wise consumers." I'll tell you what the real effect of high deductibles is: people avoid seeking medical attention, even when they need it, because they can't afford to spend four figures out of pocket.

    http://community.nytimes.com/...

  •  Progressives: this is a moral catastrophe and... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cartwrightdale, abulic, amk for obama

    YOU own it

    FTFY

    The blue dogs may bare the responsible for turning this into a watered down bill, but they ultimately don't really care about passing it. Now we get to see if the progressives are also more committed to being right, then they are to the american people.

    PASS THE DAMN BILL!

    by joseb on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:53:02 AM PST

    •  Which progressives (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, churchylafemme

      have ANY power in this process whatsoever?

      It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

      by Grassee on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:05:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The house progressives (0+ / 0-)

        could get off their high horse and pass the senate bill right now.

        PASS THE DAMN BILL!

        by joseb on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:20:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The two houses are EQUAL. (0+ / 0-)

          Just passing the Senate bill invalidates the work done in the House.

          The Senate is the one that passed a shit bill, expecting the House, who did the work to come up with a better bill, to pass.

          Now that is not happening, there is growing talk of how to get a bill through the rest of the process that everybody can live with.

          That was the point of standing firm in the first place.  That was the point of doing the work to build the movement to relevance.

          And now it's paying off because they can't just pass the Senate bill without the House, and so then people need to come to the table and deal, because the Progressives have earned that seat at the table and expect it to pay off.

          IF THEY ARE GOING TO SCREW THE PEOPLE, MAKE THEM OWN IT.

          by potatohead on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 06:44:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Haiti is a real crisis. This isn't. (0+ / 0-)

    Stop overreacting. It is not as though millions of Americans are about to LOSE health insurance that they had because of Dem screw ups. They don't have it now.

    That's bad -- but its the status quo, and has been for decades.

  •  not to take anything away from Haiti, but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Malvern

    I believe it is a real crisis. It is illogical to say, "well we were going to reform the health care system in the United States but then there was an earthquake in Haiti so we didn't". I am donating to Shelterboxes AND calling my representatives about health care reform.

    To keep our faces turned toward change, and behave as free spirits in the presence of fate, that is strength undefeatable--Helen Keller

    by kareylou on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:13:56 AM PST

  •  just signed the petition and left this message in (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink

    it, I hope nyceve you watch, maybe yo already did, the interview too.

    "If Democrats fail on this Democrats will loose the support of another generation of Americans. Governor Ed Rendell had some great suggestions the other night in Rachel Maddow's Show. You would be well served in watching the second half of that interview and in following his advice.

    Thank You."

    "You voted for George W. Bush twice, you fucked up our country, you can't have it back."

    by basquebob on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:18:33 AM PST

  •  sound like a good system? (0+ / 0-)

    Here is my take on how our system treats the self-employed who actually dare to get sick, if they are lucky/wise enough to have insurance:

    1. Insurance company is allowed to perform a procedure called wealth extraction on the patient, who now is a captive of whatever insurance they had when they got sick and must send the insurance company whatever they ask for.
    1. Once wealth is extracted, patient is then tossed to the government so the taxpayers can pick up the tab while the patient dies in poverty.
    1. Thanks to the Supreme Court, as of today, insurance company takes patient's life savings and uses it to elect politicians who will ensure that insurance company executives can continue to take advantage of illness and suffering to maximize their bonuses.
    1. AAARGH

    To keep our faces turned toward change, and behave as free spirits in the presence of fate, that is strength undefeatable--Helen Keller

    by kareylou on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:19:06 AM PST

  •  This could be the future.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SingleVoter, Back In Blue, kareylou

    The Senate now recognizes the Senator from Johnson & Johnson
    to be followed by the Senator from Aetna

  •  Support the candidate (0+ / 0-)

    & not the party. It's that simple.

    I did campaign on the public option, and I'm proud of it!

    by Jazzenterprises on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 11:31:01 AM PST

    •  Because Democrats don't have a party, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Back In Blue

      they have a coalition. And when the coalition breaks down, they can't pass anything. Republicans are amazingly effective despite their minority status because they are a party, not just a group of individuals.

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:08:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama should send out a few gifts (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    Sen. Lincoln - Little Rock phone book
    Sen. Nelson - Omaha phone book
    Sen. Landrieu - New Orleans phone book
    ...
    Sen. Lieberman - Hartford phone book

    It's filibuster time!

    I wonder if they'll be able to get to the Zimmermans' before the funding for the Afghan combat has to be renewed.

  •  What I'd like to see at this point (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme

    is Medicare for all or at least expanded Medicare brought to a vote. The majority of voters want it. Make them vote it down and make the nay-sayers face the consequences.

    It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man. --H.L. Mencken

    by denise b on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:00:15 PM PST

  •  You and your team should've (7+ / 0-)
    considered this scenario when you trashed healthcare day in and day out for 6 months. You had teabaggers trashing HCR from the right and you had lefty bloggers trashing it from the left. On one side you had conservative opinionmakers like Drudge and on the other you had liberal opinionmakers like Huffington Post. On Fox News it was socialist takeover of government. On MSNBC it was socialist takeover of the government AND the biggest corporate giveaway in the history of humankind. Yeah, Obama owns it.The congress own but the left also owns the debacle. Of course, the teabaggers own it but they'll wear the badge of "burying Obamacare with Ted Kennedy" with pride.
  •  Democrats is Congress are idiots (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    We Won

    as well as cowards. If they do not pass the Senate bill, with modifications under budget reconciliation if necessary, their position in November will be completely indefensible. Any member who behaves irresponsibly on this challenge, and there are many who are, should be cast adrift. They need to find another line of work. I think before this dies, the Senate bill should be brought up in the House for a vote so we can identify those who must go, on the left and right.

  •  Why is Democratic success "we" win and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    royce, amk for obama

    Democratic failure "they" lose?

    Why "Democrats... you own it."  Why not "Democrats... we own it."

    campaign finance SCOTUS decision... ya gotta be kidding

    by powderblue on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:26:33 PM PST

  •  The real catastrophe is in allowing (0+ / 0-)

    conservatives to continue to undermine our country with rhetoric aimed squarely at fantasy. The moral majority was nothing but red meat for social conservatives as well as neo-conservatives with both being warmongers in the highest degree.

    The term terrorism was beaten into our discourse and has infused the entire voting population with fear, but fear of what? Fear of those that hold religious beliefs seen as heresy. No dogma is as intolerant as the so called Christian nation we supposedly inhabit. The neo-cons on the other hand use fear to further both the industrial military complex as well as private corporations.

    This battle, health care, is now at the forefront of thought and the same bully tactics are being used by the rightwing that brought us the war on terrorism. Rhetoric veiled in religious morality is completely undermining our Constitutional process. What Congressman would dare push back against God/Yahweh,Allah,Ram, Isis, Zeus, Apollo, etc and expect to remain in the people's trust?

  •  it's 101,000 dead every year (0+ / 0-)

    This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

    by Thought Crime on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:37:58 PM PST

    •  Those are amenable mortality rates (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Diesel Kitty

      Not the same as the number of people who die every year due to lack of insurance.  The Senate and House bill both contain provisions to decrease amenable mortality rates in the USA, however.  I'd guesstimate that the true loss of lives due to health care reform not passing is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-60,000 a year.

      The kill bill movement was the most morally repugnant effort ever undertaken by so-called "progressives."

  •  Don't miss out! Act T0DAY !! (0+ / 0-)

    The first  propaganda technique my Junior High School Civics teacher tried to immunize us against were

    "Bandwagon" --  don't be left behind don't be left out get on board.  The commercial version being:"Get in on the ground floor. This offer may never be repeated."

    The second was called "Just Plain Folks" ... where the candidate assumes the speech and costuming of the electorate and speaking simply and forcefully as if he were one of them and had their best interests at heart.  Andrew Jackson and Hughie Long were offered as examples.

    See: The Senate version  IS a BAD BILL with a lot of below the radar mischief hidden in the fine print.  The House bill is, philosophically at least, a little LESS BAD ... but still serves the Insurance Cartel first, the Medical Industry second, and the "patients" and taxpayers dead last.

    True, not passing anything would look like a "loss" in the political win/lose scorecard.  But a team can strengthen their play, sharpen their focus and come back from a lost game to a season championship.

    But passing THIS "something" is just a boneheaded, rookie, chump play setting the groundwork for more weakness, softer focus -- an the BIG LOSE in 2012.

    Unless that's been the idea since the pre-Season.

  •  BIG QUESTION ON RECONCILIATION PROCESS (0+ / 0-)

    The other night on the KO show Lawrence O'Donnell said that going the reconciliation route requires 60 votes in some of its procedural motions.  Can anyone explain or refute his contention in light of David Waldman's description  ...

    The House can bargain for the right to try to adopt further amendments to the Senate version in a separate bill, in exchange for agreeing to pass and lock in the Senate bill as a baseline measure. The speculation there is that the second bill would have to be passed under the budget reconciliation process, or else risk being blocked by a filibuster. Reconciliation involves an awful lot of procedural risks, but in theory, this option at least offers House, Senate and even White House negotiators the opportunity to address some of the issues their talks were close to resolving, and which are considered by many to be necessary in order to win votes for passing the bill adopted by the Senate.

    No quarter. No surrender.

    by hegemony57 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 12:52:05 PM PST

    •  Medicare buy-in in reconciliation or the budget! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nyceve

      Up the age for SCHIP, lower the age for a Medicare buy-in. All perfectly suited for reconciliation in fact could conceivably be done in the budget alone! What a victory that would be.

    •  I can. (0+ / 0-)

      O'Donnell is talking about the fact that there's an array of points of order that could be made against provisions in a reconciliation bill that, if sustained by the chair, would require 60 votes to waive. If they're not waived, they would strike out those provisions of the bill.

      But points of order have to be raised affirmatively by a Senator, and have to be sustained as valid by the chair. You can't require 60 votes for a point of order if it's just bullshit and you're making it up.

      The idea going into this is that they'd be checking with the parliamentarian ahead of time to make sure they were crafting their language such that most or all of it would be safe from those points of order, and if they do it correctly, no, they won't require 60 votes for anything.

  •  If they fail to pass.... (0+ / 0-)

    ...."something" they'll take a beating in Nov....if they pass "anything" just to pass "something" they'll still take a beating in Nov

  •  And somehow the kill the bill, convince everyone (5+ / 0-)

    that Obama = Bush, demotivate everyone crowd gains absolution after getting what seems to be exactly the result they wanted from the base in Mass.?!  

    First neither Lieberman is at fault for Lieberman's vote nor are the people who elected him because it's the president's fault that he couldn't cast Lieberman's vote and the same somehow applies to Landrieu, and Nelson and now the base in Mass.  behaves just like they've been listening to Obama=Bush and is a sellout and loves to double cross us circular firing squad ODS crowd and they bare no responsibility for spreading that tripe?!

    This is just sad.

    I'll sign the petition, but I'm not buying the rationale behind the blame.

    I blame Lieberman for Lieberman. I blame Ben Nelson for Ben Nelson.  I know, what a crazy idea.

    Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

    by lockewasright on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:00:50 PM PST

  •  WHO IS 'US' ??? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    PLEASE HELP US FIGHT FOR RECONCILIATION BY SIGNING THIS

    For at least the third time.

  •  Better answer, but yes to reconciliation (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    Up the age for SCHIP, lower the age for Medicare buy-in, tweak Medicaid, all can be done through reconciliation and a couple of simple bills.

    This is a time for Lincoln/FDR-type courage from our leaders. This is the time when we find out if we really have a democracy or not. The Supreme Court laid down the gauntlet even more forcefully that it did in Bush v. Gore, and Congress and the President had better understand that this is the brink of the precipice. If they don't push back hard, we are done for as a free nation.

    I am 60+ years old and not since Watergate have I felt so scared for us. Then I was privileged to hear Barbara Jordan speak the words that pointed the way; and Elliot Richardson broke with his party and acted his moral values and showed us that wrong was wrong, Now, let's say, I am waiting to see that kind of language and courage again. The way forward is called reconciliation and IT CAN BE DONE.

    Madame Speaker, Mr. Majority Leader, Mr. President, the people wait.

    Hear it from Cornel West:
    Cornel West lays it on the line for the President

  •  I agree with most of your diary, (0+ / 0-)

    but I won't sign the petition because it doesn't say anything about who I am providing my information to.

    For all the web page says, this could be a petition coming from the Taliban.

    "Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day" - Thomas Jefferson

    by sangemon on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:16:48 PM PST

  •  Petition signed, and a note posted (5+ / 0-)

    Here's the note I sent in the petition to Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid:

    I am 50, disabled, and on Medicare. I would still be a productive member of society if I had not had to start dialysis two years ago. I would still have working kidneys (one, at least) if I had been able to get health care in 2004-2005, but instead, I went a year and a half without being able to see a doctor. I had hypertension (easily controlled by a generic medication), diabetes (also easily controlled with a generic medication), and a single working kidney. That year and a half without care made sure that a year and a half after I finally could see a doctor again, I got diagnosed with chronic kidney disease, and had to start dialysis less than a year later. Now I'm waiting for a kidney, which I may get from my sister. I would really rather still be able to work, never need dialysis, and for my sister to keep both her kidneys.

    Without health care - real health care, the kind provided by doctors and nurses, as differentiated from health insurance provided by health insurance corporations - there will be a lot more people like me who end up on Medicare with ESRD or are otherwise disabled by a lack of care. There will be a lot more people in emergency medical clinics provided by Remote Area Medical, a group that usually works in the third world and would like to go back to that. There will be a lot more people dying when they don't have to. But that takes health CARE reform, the kind you can pass via reconciliation, not health insurance reform that means all you're entitled to is to pay the money you'd pay a doctor to an insurance company instead.

    Time to get it done, or the Democrats are done. I've been a Democrat all my life. I'm the Kitsap Vice Chair of my local legislative district Democrats. I'm not going to quit the party, but I am going to tell you that we are going down in flames if we don't give real honest-to-goodness health C A R E  to the American people this year. Get it done, or give up and go home, because in November, a lot of good Democrats will be sent home by the voters if we don't accomplish health care - not health insurance, but health CARE - reform.

    The other thing we have got to pass this year, without fail, is EFCA. That was promised to Labor, and they expect this promise to be kept. (Health care reform was promised, too, and they also expect that promise to be kept.) In Washington state, the checks from Labor have already stopped flowing to the Democratic Party, and we have to re-elect Senator Patty Murray this year, along with a lot of Congressional Democrats. Don't mistake my state for a blue state; it is not. The big cities, Tacoma and Seattle, with a bit of help from Spokane, are blue, but much of the rest of the state is deep red and you will never get them to vote for a Democrat or a Democratic agenda. We are a lot closer to a genuine swing state than anybody in the national media seems to recognize. Well, you Congressional leaders had better recognize that, because it makes a big difference to how you need to operate in order to make sure that we do keep the Washington delegation blue. Would you rather govern with a lot more Jay Inslees or a lot more Doc Hastings, Speaker Pelosi? Would you rather run the Senate with our great Senator Patty Murray, the veterans' best friend, or would you like to see someone like Slade Gorton - or worse - come back, Leader Reid? It's your choice, and giving the Democrats credibility with the voters is going to make all the difference. To do that, you have to pass real health care reform, and you have to pass EFCA. Those two things will give us a win in November. Anything else - won't.

    Living kidney donor needed; type B, O, or incompatible (with paired donation). Drop me a note (see profile).

    by Kitsap River on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:38:09 PM PST

  •  This is what a failing empire looks like (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cylonbabe

    It's terribly painful even to watch let alone be a victim of. Foreign indebtedness, political paralysis, military adventurism, all are hallmarks of the failed empire. We have a huge unelected, uncontrolled state within the state, that represents the national security apparatus. I call it the NSS - and it eats up around a trillion dollars every year from the national budget. From the time Eisenhower warned us of it, it has never ceased to grow. The reason we cannot solve our domestic problems is simply that the NSS is eating the government. Incidentally, it kind of explains the difference between candidate Obama and President Obama. So I do not wonder at the kinds of political upheavals I see today. I don't think there is any active conspiracy at work. The fact is that there is no one at the controls. The NSS is like a tumor; it doesn't need to be conscious in order to be lethal. My feeling is that, like the USSR, the only thing that can fix the USA is the complete collapse of the political system and the rise of a new state or series of states. Unfortunately, we are compelled to try to minimize harm to people during this time, and it's going to be pretty difficult. Sounds nutty but so did the collapse of the USSR. Until it died, it seemed pretty robust; then it just seemed like it was inevitable.

  •  Catholic position on Health Care (0+ / 0-)

    Besides the obvious myopic posturing about "abortion funding" a point that seems to be left out of the discussion is this statement from the (Catholic) Office Of Social Justice -

    Catholic Social Teaching and Health Care
    In our Catholic tradition, health care is a basic human right. Access to health care should not depend on where a person works, how much a family earns, or where a person lives. Instead, every person,
    created in the image and likeness of God, has a right to life and to those things necessary to sustain life, including affordable, quality health care.

    I'm a Kennedy Catholic.

    by EquiStar on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 01:51:26 PM PST

  •  Are You Fucking Shitting Me? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    goblue72, Diesel Kitty, amk for obama

    Progressive obstruction in your quest for perfection, led here by you and slink and the rest of the FDL zombies, is responsible for dragging this out 8 months and not getting it passed last year.  Now you have the fucking chutzpah to write this diary demanding it be passed and blaming the president for not doing so?

    •  All hail the omnipotent Slink & Eve! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, nyceve, churchylafemme

      Progressive obstruction in your quest for perfection, led here by you and slink and the rest of the FDL zombies, is responsible for dragging this out 8 months and not getting it passed last year.

      Geez oh peez... if I honestly believed that Eve and Slink had led the progressive obstruction that is responsible for dragging this out for 8 months and not getting it passed last year, I wouldn't be talking to them like that. That'd mean they were more powerful than the President of the United States, who declared that this would be done by August - seriously, why would you start something with people who beat the President?!

      You're a brave, brave person.

      "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

      by efraker on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 03:20:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hmmmmm (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    amk for obama

    Well, the way I see it, the 10 billion dollars to 10,000 new health care clinics IS health care reform.

    I've seen a lot of people say that they wanted health care reform, not just health insurance reform, and, other than the above clinics, I really don't understand what would constitute health care reform.

                   Curious,
                   Heather

    Planning a March for Legal Accountability for Torture in Washington, DC, September 4th, 2010, the Saturday of Labour Day Weekend.

    by Chacounne on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 02:43:00 PM PST

  •  Will Scott Brown sucker punch the Republicans? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lungfish

    I wonder whether Brown can actually remain a Republican representing Massachusetts.  Once he knows what he has gotten himself into, he could become like Specter.  He will have his own culture shock coming from MA & having to deal with people like Sessions and Hatch.

  •  The senate won't budge at all on this because (0+ / 0-)

    it will be a lot easier for them to run statewide saying, "we passed a perfectly good senate bill even against Republican obstructionism but the "libruls" on our left balked. What can the house say if this bill fails? How many house members out of 435 can say, "I voted down the health care bill and Obama's agenda because it wasn't progressive enough", and get any political points from the voters in their district? 10? 15, at the most.

    In fact for Lincoln, Landrieu, and Nelson that's probably their optimum political scenario, bill fails because the left balks, and they get to run against Republican obstructionism AND "all or nothing" activist liberalism.

  •  The Democrats Own This Mess (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve
    The Republicans made damn sure of it by taking advantage of the Obama administration's desperation for bipartisanship. They made damn sure the bill in the Senate was loaded with crap then refused to vote for it even though it had pretty much everything they wanted. Now it passes with only Democrats voting for it and they're the ones left holding the bag.

    Enough of the bipartisanship! Enough kowtowing to Republicans and blue dogs. The gentle approach isn't working. Stop walking on egg shells and start working on that omelet! If you're a Democrat in the House or the Senate and you're not fully supporting the Democratic agenda, you should be stripped of your committee chairmanships and the DNC should be looking for someone to replace you. End of story.

    It's time to stop fearing the Republicans and conservadems. It's time to fight. I find it appalling Reagan and Bush were so successful without having the majorities in Congress we have and yet Obama can't seem to get all that much done even though his party owns two of the three branches of government. It's appalling.

    Democrats either need to start leading or get the hell out of the way.

    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

    by Cali Techie on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 02:58:15 PM PST

  •  We all own it (7+ / 0-)

    I have to say, this scolding coming from someone who was urging that the bill be killed sticks in my craw.  The reality is that the netroots, politicians and activists on the left decided to play a game of chicken with the senate and lost.  That's how 2008 was spent - poorly planned gamesmanship.  While it's great to have the bill killer crowd now getting on board with the urgency of passing this bill I'm sure not interested in any moralizing from them.  We all own this failure.  We wasted time and amused ourselves with flame wars and poorly wrought tactics.  Now we'll have to deal with the wreckage.  I'm not willing to give up on this issue myself and I'm hopeful that I'm not alone, but save the finger wagging.  It's lame.

    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

    by Triscula on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 03:06:24 PM PST

    •  Triscula, I was not fighting to kill the bill . . (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, churchylafemme, efraker

      I was fighting to get the public option included.

      •  Same frickin' thing. (4+ / 0-)

        I am so sick and tired of "progressives" here and everywhere else refusing to take a single goddamn ounce of responsibility over this mess.  

        "Oh, its not my fault...you see, I was fighting to make it BETTER.  They wouldn't even consider single payer so we HAD to fight for the public option."  Or "the health insurance companies were going to get everything they wanted from this."  Blah. Blah. Blah.

        You know what NOT having anyone in leadership in DC even giving single payer even so much as a first glance meant? It meant that single payer was politically so far off to the left of the radar screen given this country's political make-up that it was never part of the frickin' conversation.  In other words, the "left" didn't give up shit because it didn't have it to begin with.

        Which meant the public option was - from day one - a wish list item on the part of the left end of the political dial and not a core part of the health care reform agenda.  And fighting like hell over it just meant scorching earth over what should have been treated as a mere bargaining chip in exchange for other items, instead of the stupid hill to die on that the fools in the progressive community treated it as.  Obama got it.  He knew it was never going to pass and rightly treated it as a bargaining chip.

        Put the left wouldn't let go.  Never mind that Medicaid eligibility was being expanded so dramatically as to include 30 million poor people on the healthcare rolls that previously were Shit Outta Luck.

        Every time one of my "progressive" friends whines about the public option/reconciliation/healthcare insurance companies "getting what they wanted", I want to spit in their goddamn smug little faces knowing that 30 million WORKING POOR people are not going to get affordable healthcare because "progressives" were too busy masturbating each other over the public option.

        Liberals drive me crazy. Unfortunately, conservatives are even worse.

        by goblue72 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 06:59:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  public option just a bargaining chip? (0+ / 0-)

          the public option was - from day one - a wish list item on the part of the left end of the political dial and not a core part of the health care reform agenda ... Obama got it.  He knew it was never going to pass and rightly treated it as a bargaining chip.

          So, all of the talk from inside the administration (see my sig) and members of the Democratic party was just to manipulate us into a fervor so that we'd support the bill, allowing our party to be in a better negotiating position when dealing with right-leaning Democrats?

          It was never really on the table. That's what you're saying, right?

          "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

          by efraker on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:38:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  it had a chance (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gratis4

            for sure.  three fewer wastes of oxygen in the senate and we'd be there.  but the smart money, given who is in the senate, was on the public option is one hell of a bargaining chit.  this is especially true in light of just what a joke of a public option did make it into a final bill.

            The problem with people who need to follow leaders is that they need to follow leaders.

            by Cedwyn on Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 10:20:41 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Once it was clear that wasn't going to happen? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nyceve, Elise, gratis4, Diesel Kitty

        You were extremely negative about the Senate bill.  Even though the House version's public option had been watered down to the point that it was merely symbolic.  It would only cover a tiny sliver of the population.  Did you or anyone else on the left have anything positive to say about the Senate bill?  Nope.  Even when you finally accepted the reality of the situation and realized that failure to pass reform would be devastating to the country and to the Democratic party you STILL trashed the bill as "terrible".  

        I'm not suggesting that the bill is perfect but it did offer significant hope to a great number of uninsured people.  Let's face it.  The poor tactics on the left hurt the public's view of reform and of this bill in particular.  Either through outright attacking it or failing to advocate for its advantages and pointing out that there will be opportunities to build on it to improve it in the future.  As an ordinary tax paying citizen I feel like I'm caught in the middle of competing interest groups and none of them seem to really care about the actual human costs of their games.  The game itself became more important than real life gains in the quality of life for ordinary American people.
        So the scolding and finger wagging from someone on this site who was prominent in this message game burns me a bit.  I don't want to discourage you from advocating for passage of the bill (or any bill at this point) but you might want to consider a different tone.

        "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

        by Triscula on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:44:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Republicans are Filibustering, nuff said (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lungfish

    This isn't about the Democrats. It just isn't. Why the Democrats aren't shouting this message far and wide is beyond me. 0% of Republicans want health care. This is the only story in this debacle.

  •  Forget reconciliation; abolish the filibuster (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Unique Material

    Republicans are abusing the filibuster to paralyze government, and Democrats are getting the blame.  Time to go nuclear.

    "Mr. Smith Rewrites the Constitution."
    http://www.commondreams.org/...

  •  Best Idea (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    .... how about all 535 members of Congress (House and Senate) lose their coverage, for themselves and their families, if they fail again on healthcare? You think if these cowards couldn't access healthcare, we'd get something?

    I'm the person your mother warned you about.

    by Unique Material on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 04:20:27 PM PST

  •  I called my Congressman Jim Cooper (D) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, Soft Bulletin

    of Tennessee today and told him to get on board with passing the Senate HCR bill. I had my spouse do the same. I called my self-employed musician neighbors and left them a voice mail message to call Cooper as well. Let's flood the congressional offices with calls.

    As my politicl genius niece said on her Facebook page, "They've written their term paper. Now, it's time to turn it in!"

  •  You own it too Nyceve--sorry! (5+ / 0-)

    One day when you look back through your lens at the larger history of massive social reform, you will realize that it is done imperfectly at first.  You need to get the vote of those who have pockets bulging with the millions of dollars that  special insurance and banking industries provide.

    Later, when the air clears, and the senators either get voted out or get tired of bulging money and doing nothing for their constituents that will do good for the country and the people, there can be incremental improvements to AN IMPERFECT BILL.

    In my opinion, and I want you to print this out, you are doing a great disservice to this community by expecting the perfect at the expense of the good on major reform.  You, too, have the possibility of great guilt on your conscience.

    We need to sign the Senate Bill, with the deal with the House that it will be improved.  Don't pay too much attention to polls.  This needs to get done.  Most people don't know anything about how hard it is to get major reform in the face of millions of lobbying dollars.  I trained to be a historian.  I know reform is hard.  We need to get off our high, principled horses and get the Senate bill signed.  Get reconciliation and get on to the future.  Don't tag on those requirements that mean that it will die.  Let's get on with it.  Let's let change happen.

  •  Strange to see moralizing calls from people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dotalbon, Diesel Kitty

    who wanted to have bill their way or high way. A mea-culpa would have been better meme to support their calls instead of this finger wagging and passing the buck. As is their wont, the left has managed to shoot itself in their collective feet.

    Between birthers, deathers and mouth-breathers, the gop has got 'teh crazy' and 'teh stoopid' covered.

    by amk for obama on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 07:52:32 PM PST

  •  This can be summed up very easily (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, amk for obama

    Elected Democrats who run like scared rabbits from their party's platform are in power because -- guess what -- they won their primaries.  

    Why? Because the Democrats have no base.    

    By "base" I mean a bunch of voters affilated with one party and totally dedicated to that party's platform, who donate money reliably and turn out for every single election.

    While our base has become wimpier and more temperamental, the GOP's has firmed up.  They support issues much more than candidates -- if you toe the reactionary line, they'll support you regardless of your other shortcomings.

    That's why the GOP has run the country for the last forty years.  When they're in power, they know exactly what they want and go get it.  When they're not, they try to shut down the opposition, giving them power out of proportion to their numbers.

    I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. (John Cage)

    by dotalbon on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:00:00 PM PST

  •  Healtch care reform is dead (0+ / 0-)

    It was a non starter to begin with...

    For what ever reason Obama and his team decided they would out do CLinton and actually pass something...  right up until the point they didn't.

    I Do agree Healthcare reform is needed, I also just believe it was NOT doable with the DINO's we have in the Senate, not this year anyway.

    More importantly Obama should be focusing on the Banks and the Economy...

    Everything else INCLUDING Healthcare reform is simply cutting the throat of democrats in 2010..

    Healthcare is NOT the most important thing we as Democrats need to support, not unless you want to have one hell of a lot less seats in congress in 2010 than you do NOW...

    The most IMPORTANT thing is FIX Wallstreet so mainstreet is happy and CREAT MORE JOBS!!!!

    Otherwise the 30 and under crowd will say home or as some of them did just recently in MA, go out and vote for the other choice. And then you will say hello to President Romney or Palin in 2012.....

    Which would just suck WAY beyond what losing some possible health care PARTIAL reform could ever be.

    Celebrating FAIL every day! (Official GOP Slogan 2009)

    by Nebraskablue on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:00:28 PM PST

  •  Way WRONG assumption.. (0+ / 0-)

    Obama and his staff for what ever reason picked healthcare over mainstreet or fixing the banks problems and and the rape of the middle class.

    Mainstreet disagrees...

    and they are losing because of it.

    You diary is yet another of MANY that claims IF they don't pass something  - even a shitty bill then all will be lost...

    Bullshit...

    They NEVER had the votes nor the support ANYWAY and STILL they when off tilting at HC reform windwills for whatever reason.

    And here you are saying OMG - gotta support HCR...

    Seriously, FUCK healthcare reform....

    80 PERCENT OF AMERICA wants the BANKS to get hammered and JOBS to come BACK...AND most folks would like to stay in their homes, even IF they are worth less than they paid for it..

    And they really think HCR ought to be relagated to the back seat until the financial crisis is over and JOBS COME BACK!!!!!

    I disagree with everything you posted... and so do most of your fellow citizens..

    And THAT is what is going to either help or kill Democratic candidate chances in November. ANd again in 2012.

    Celebrating FAIL every day! (Official GOP Slogan 2009)

    by Nebraskablue on Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 08:16:31 PM PST

  •  Barack and his team have it bass ackwards: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pkbarbiedoll, Billdbq

    They should be making war on Wall Street (and Rs in general), and seeking bipartisanship in Afghanistan.

  •  A deficiency of the spine (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, Billdbq

    The debate on "healthcare reform" (I say that very "tongue-in-cheek") has been nothing short of painful to watch.

    Why has it been painful to watch? Not because this is a complex issue. Not because of the inevitable bickering with conservatives. Not even because of the polls and pundit-speak.

    Its been painful to watch because we've surrendered, compromised, waffled, and haggled away any substantive change. Then when we got done with that, we surrendered, compromised, waffled, and haggled some more.

    We did this so much that we ended up with a bill that is almost meaningless - Howard Dean was right about this.

    Then came the bad strategy - rather than go with reconciliation - where we could have passed a halfway decent bill 6 months ago - we let Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson hijack hold up the bill and turn it into a public relations stunt.

    So where are we now? We've got a POS Senate bill that probably won't muster 120 votes in the house, and probably only 59 votes in the Senate.

    The Dems fucked this up, and the Republicans were glad to assist. We gave the Dems a supermajority in both chambers and they still couldn't get their shit together. We wasted a year. Unbelievable.

    No more games. Reconciliation now!        

  •  The Invasion of Iraq (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    audiored

    was the biggest moral catastrophe of our generation. Let us not forget. Not passing universal health care has been The Way It Is since America was founded. This failure is no bigger or smaller than Bill Clinton's failure or Richard Nixon's failure or Lyndon Johnson's failure or Harry Truman's failure or Franklin Roosevelt's failure. Same shit, different century.

  •  This diary has all the logical attributes of a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fizziks

    Mexican firing squad.

    There are three, and three only, reasons why health care reform legislation has not passed:

    1. the Senate filibuster rules
    1. the lack of a sufficiently filibuster-proof Democratic majority in the Senate
    1. a cautious, young, distracted, and weak (albeit perhaps practical) President.

    ...to which I will add the understood yet inescapable fact of the power of the various entrenched, opposed interests.

    Fix any one of the three reasons listed and an acceptable health care reform bill will pass. But whatever you do, don't mistakenly attack (or massacre, if that't the plan) the vast majority of Democratic Congressmen who do support reform. Doing so would be more than dumb.

  •  "We did everything and more that was asked of us" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    Did we? Last time I checked (often) many of the people here were busy bickering at the keyboard with generally like-minded people. Meanwhile the tea-bees were out organizing and screaming their misguided protest into the wind and the airwaves.

    Maybe we all took a collective sigh of relief in November 2008, and then somehow forgot that governing may be at least as challenging as supporting campaigns, and winning elections, had been. We then may have gone on to conclude that turning on each other, and devoting our energy to that, might be even more important than continuing to do the hard work on the issues vital to our country, and winning elections. In fact this is the time we should have been redoubling our activism.

    So before we heap our blanket derision on every Democrat in congress (while there are definitely those worthy of all scorn), maybe we also need to take a long hard look at ourselves. the current state of progressive grassroots activism, and/or lack of.

    As far as the President, I maxed out my contributions in the campaign and have found myself in the last few days saying "not a penny more." I have been disgusted at some of the people he has surrounded himself with, and the corporatist vibe. Also deeply troubled by the lack of results on many issues deeply important to me. On the other hand, here's a man staring into the abyss. At least here, let's not downplay the level of damage and precariousness inherited from the previous administration, just because the PR machine does. And, probably, by most objective standards, one of the better administrations of most of our lifetimes. Just maybe, if he had more support on the street, he could summon the courage to fight for the big changes that the country needs to come back from the precipice.

    I believe we're at the beginning of a new political era, one in which mass movements again become increasingly central, and maybe the best hope of resisting unchecked corporate power. Groups that rely almost entirely on the internet, the din of which is increasingly drowning out focused messages, will be at a distinct disadvantage to those that also take to the streets, and political forums, to get their views heard. On this, while they have no answers, the other side is skunking us at the moment.

  •  moral catastrophes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    I always felt it was a moral catastrophe that progressives agreed to take Medicare For All off the table before the fight was even started.

    So yeah, welcome to the ongoing moral catastrophe that the incrementalists have forced upon us all, by not having the cojones to fight for simply expanding a widely popular program to everyone.

    An idea (Medicare For All) that enjoyed solid popular support in just about every poll.  
    Well, I guess popular support amongst voters isn't "realistic" politically.  Have fun getting bludgeoned by Republicans, as they steal independent voters for the next couple of cycles.  Bludgeoned with the very bill the "realists" and "incrementalists" pushed.

    Welcome to your moral catastrophe.

    And your political catastrophe as well.  Independent voters loathe people who don't stand up for their own beliefs.

    Yes We Can take the path of least resistance.

    by gila on Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 01:03:58 AM PST

  •  These guys will get million dollar consultin jobs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    with insurance and drug companies after their stint in Congress. So if they lose in 2010, what's the problem? It just means that they get a lot of money. So, no, they don't care about the blood-letting that will happen at the polls in November.

    (For the record, though, I will vote a straight Democratic ticket and I will vote for Obama.)

  •  Stick a fork in it... (0+ / 0-)

    it's done.
    Reconciliation was slated to begin on Oct. 15 2009.

    That train left the station empty.

    St. Ronnie was an asshole.

    by manwithnoname on Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 02:37:21 AM PST

  •  Eve, you say that 45,000 Americans a year are (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, forever blue

    dying for lack of Health Insurance and I believe that.

    But another 255,000 have Health Insurance and are dying because of either errors in the system or the out right refusal of the insurance companies to pay for procedures that people have paid premiums for.

    300,000 needless deaths every year dwarfs  anything that terrorists might do and as such constitutes a National Emergency and the President has unique powers for handling National Emergencies.

    And he doesn't need the Kongress or the Supreme Kourt to avail himself of these powers.

    He simply uses the upcoming State of the Union Address to declare to the country that because of these 300,000 deaths each year he is declaring Health Care in this country to constitute a National Emergency and he then uses his Emergency Powers as President to Nationalize the entire industry placing it under the Aegis  of the already existing Veterans Administration Health Care System.

    In one fell swoop all the evils of this monstrous system  are destroyed and those who protest too much including the Supremes can simply be whisked off to Gitmo to have their finger nails trimmed.

    As Ronald Raygun himself used to say

    "People tell me that ther are no simple answers but they are wrong.  There are simple answers. There just are no easy answers".

    It is a bold and simple solution and once it is in place no  one is going to run on the platform of returning us to the current situation.

  •  It's all about Medicare (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve
    Looking at Ezra's WaPo/Kaiser/Harvard poll, Dems and Repubs alike in Massachusetts had concerns that the current bill would negatively effect Medicare.  Just look at U.S. Demographics, the numbers of baby boomers in retirement or approaching it.  To most all voters the main concern with healthcare reform is strengthening Medicare and giving those who are not eligible for Medicare and can't afford private insurance a public option, preferably a way to buy into Medicare.

    Almost daily I hear at work of someone in their 50s, 60s, or just retired who has cancer, or heart disease.  They're scared.  They don't know how they will continue to work while getting treatment; what will happen to their family if they run through their savings to stay alive? Will they leave their family in debt? They spent their entire life working to make it to the age when they could retire with Medicare, enjoy life, spend time with families, travel and do what they didn't have time for while working to provide, and now they're dying.

    Start with the boomers (50+) -- make sure they are covered with Medicare or a Medicare buy in.  That's what voters want and, by the Massachusetts election, I'd say they don't care which party it comes from.

    Let's make it the Democrats who give them the healthcare they need and want.

  •  Sick to death of this (0+ / 0-)

    this whining doesn't help us one bit.

    Moral catastrophe?  We had 60 Senators sign this, and then the Democrats failed to show up at the polls in Mass.

    WE OWN