Here's a bit of extra credit for those who want to get more Democrats elected in November.

So we all remember the schooling that Obama gave the House GOP at their "retreat" last week, right? One of the key talking points that the GOP kept trying to push, was that Obama had raised taxes on Americans. So I got curious about what would happen if I had to file my 2009 tax returns using the 2008 1040. Guess what I found out.

After doing my first draft of my 2009 tax returns, I plied my '09 W-2's and 1099's to an '08 trial run, and my tax return (refund) increased by 18.4% (from \$1731 for 2008 to \$2050 for 2009).

Anyone else interested in "checking their math", as Obama had put it, here's what you need.

2008 1040 form

2008 Instructions

1. Problem: You need to calculate percent % increase from 2 to 10
1. First Step: find the difference between two numbers, in this case, it's 10 - 2 = 8
1. Second: Take the difference, 8, and divide by the original number: 8/2 = 4
1. Lastly, multiply the number above by 100: 4*100 = 400%

If you feel up to the task, post your percentage increase, or decrease here. For your own security, I would like to keep it at just the percentage changes (+/-) and only include final \$ values if you feel comfortable. DO NOT POST FORMS HERE!

And, if anyone feels really industrious, maybe we could start a campaign, if this works out, to get more people to do this little excercise and post their results to a common webpage dedicated to "Checking the Math".

Let's see if the Republicans math really adds up.

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Comment Preferences

• Tip Jar(6+ / 0-)

Faith alone will not save you... Blind faith least of all.

• I don't think they are saying(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Lujane, nextstep

Obama HAD raised taxes.  (Well, maybe a few crazies are, but the vast majority are not.)  Instead, if you listen, they are saying that Obama WILL raise taxes as soon as the economy recovers.  And, because everybody recognizes that the level of deficits as projected over the next several years are unsustainable, it's a pretty sure bet that there will either be very painful spending cuts, very signficant tax increases across the board, or both.  Remember, those projections of unsustainable deficits already figure in repeal of the Bush tax cuts for those making over \$250,000, and already figure in growth to the tune of 4% a year starting in 2011 (which is pretty much a fantasy).

So, it is pretty clear that, unless Obama and Congress are willing to consider serious, serious spending cuts in defense and entitlements, there is almost certainly going to be a significant tax increase across the board.  Do the math there.  There aren't enough households over \$250,000 even if you wanted to raise income taxes at that level to 60% (instead of the increase already factored in), which, in and of itself, would be unprecedented.  (Remember, the Eisenhower rates were on incomes that in today's dollars would be like \$2.2 million.)

• The problem is...(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Lujane, Amber6541, ItsSimpleSimon, cwsmoke

that the republicans DO say that he IS raising taxes. They DID and DO say that the stim would increase taxes. Not just that he "will" but "has" is the inferred critique. Remember the "Boutique Tax Cut" quip from Mike Pence?

My point here is that individuals who don't know what the heck they are talking about when they accuse Obama of "taxing them to death", could see the light if they just took this little test.

Faith alone will not save you... Blind faith least of all.

[ Parent ]

• Kind of a weak argument(0+ / 0-)

it seems like you are acknowledging what I pointed out -- that clearly, clearly, he will have  to raise taxes signficiantly baseon his own projected deficits -- but simply saying that they can't complain because he hasn't done it yet?

Depending on what they mean by "taxing them to death," the people who talk about that can't be said to "not know what they are talking about."  If across-the-board income tax increases -- which pretty clearly are going to have to happen -- equals "taxing them to death," then they do have a point about raising taxes.  Tax increases on just about everybody will have to happen as soon as there is an upturn in the economy, and maybe before.

And, as another poster pointed out, the amount of a refund has nothing whatsover to do with how much you are taxed.  It has to do with how much you have withheld.

• Now your just talking circles around me.(0+ / 0-)

It's not that complicated. If you worked for the same  company in '08 and '09 that withholds the same percentage as per your request, if you still have the same dependents, no matter if your hours were cut, you were laid off, and got unemployment, got another job (filling out your W-2 form the same as last job), or what ever, you just do your '09 taxes using the '08 forms and instructions, then compare it to your real '09 tax return, you will have a decent barometer of what has been done with the tax code under Obama.

Basically, this will reflect the tax decreases given to you by the Obama administration and a Democratic majority.

This is a tool to let people figure it out for them selves.

Don't over-complicate what this is about.

Faith alone will not save you... Blind faith least of all.

[ Parent ]

• When you say(5+ / 0-)

"my tax return increased by 18.4%," did you mean that your refund increased by 18.4% or that your "total tax obligation increased by 18.4%." I think you mean the former, but the diary should be edited to make this clear.

Also, if you are talking about changes in an individual's tax obligation - the total tax is what matters, not the refund amount as that is dependent on what withholding and additional payments a person made and does not reflect the tax burden on a person.

The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

• I was about to say the same thing(3+ / 0-)

The "tax return" is the form, not the refund.

It really does sound like your taxes went up.  Please edit the diary to say your refund went up (and therefore tax liability went down).

======

"Sick Around the World"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

Watch it, send it along to all you know.

[ Parent ]

• Updated to reflect "refund".(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
nextstep, oxfdblue

Faith alone will not save you... Blind faith least of all.

[ Parent ]

• Tax Return Increase. Not Tax Due, or Tax Total(0+ / 0-)

my tax return increased by 18.4% (from \$1731 for 2008 to \$2050 for 2009).

an increase of \$319 more in my return.

Faith alone will not save you... Blind faith least of all.

[ Parent ]

• The proper term is refund, not return n/t(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
nextstep, Amber6541

======

"Sick Around the World"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

Watch it, send it along to all you know.

[ Parent ]

• That has little to do with the (2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Lujane, nextstep

marginal tax rates that the government sets. It just means that they took \$319 more out of your regular paychecks than they needed to.   It means that the federal government held \$319 of your money over the last year, interest-free.  A big refund is not a good thing (well, at least it's not a good thing when you can earn interest on money that's in a bank).  It means you gave the government an interest-free loan of \$319 last year.

You can adjust your withholding -- you can have your employer withhold \$10 a week more, and then, at the end of the year, you'll get an additional \$520 in your refund (what you call your "return.") That doesn't mean you are taxed any less at all.

I think you don't understand how the income tax withholding system works.

• He's saying quite clearly(3+ / 0-)

that the amount he earned - and the amount taken as taxes would yield a lower refund under last years rules than it does under the code for this years return.

That has every thing to do with the effective tax rates and credits and other manipulations of the tax code since Obama took office. We know this because he is entering the same Gross Income and Tax Withheld from only one set of W-2s.

no remuneration was received by anyone for the writing of this message

[ Parent ]

• H/T(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
ItsSimpleSimon

Merci.

Faith alone will not save you... Blind faith least of all.

[ Parent ]

• Don't over-complicate what this is about.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
relentless

http://www.dailykos.com/...

Let's talk turkey.

Are you really going to bicker the finer points of tax code with someone offering you a political do-it-yourself take home test for the portion of the electorate that WE DON'T BELONG TO!!!!!!!!

You are taking the same numbers (gross wages, earnings, and losses) and pluging them into a diferent calculation (2009 numbers used under 2008 tax code).

Decreases in taxes become plain as day when yoou hold the two different formulations of the same numbers side by side.

If it helps, I will add:

Do not use '08 W-2's OR 1099's.

Faith alone will not save you... Blind faith least of all.

[ Parent ]

• Math Hair Kossacks(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
The Blue State Bandit

just love to squelch a diary with silly arithmetic.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/...

The End and the Beginning by Wislawa Szymborska

• Gee, seven RECOMMEND clicks.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
The Blue State Bandit

This info is the key to bashing the # 1 domestic GOPer-Lie for 2010 February-March-April.

BTW: how's about the title ???

"How Big Is Your I.R.S. Refund ???"

The subtitle can do the details. Lay out the GOPer lies vs. reality.

We know they are going to lie.

They're paid advocates for Big Business. There's no values, no principles over there. Nothing but lies.

Angry White Males + Personality Disorder delusionals + Pro-Life Christians

=EQ=

The GOPer Base