I'm not someone who often writes diaries on Daily Kos, and this diary itself was hard to write. This diary is one that gets a little too personal for my liking to post on a public forum, but I think that it is something that must be said.
This is a rather long diary with basically a "conversation" I had on facebook. It's a bit unorthodox for a diary here on kos, but I think there are some important lessons to be learned from the "debate."
Minutes after healthcare was passed, I was celebrating with many of you here on Kos and I was also celebrating on Facebook the passage of this historic legislations. The comments were overwhelmingly in favor of healthcare. This includes my very Christian, staunchly pro-life friends (interesting moment of the night: when Stupak came to speak against the motion to recommit both sides of the abortion debate were deeply moved when he ripped Republicans for not actually being pro-life). As a young person with a lot of friends around the same age, I didn't find what I saw particularly surprising. This is MY GENERATION after all, the generation that got the first African-American elected. The generation who won't allow the injustice against our GLBT brothers and sisters to stand. This is the generation that is tolerant, diverse, compassionate, well-educated, and well-cultured (hey the internet lets you meet and interact with people all over the world), etc. This is a generation that is very different from all the rest, in my opinion because we are the first generation born fully after the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s and 1970s. But all of that is not the point of this diary.
Right now I'm in college. This diary is why happened when I stumbled upon my friend's status. He's a staunch Democrat and visits this site occasionally. But he's also from rural Ohio...and let's just say his Representative isn't exactly Dennis Kuccinch.
Naturally a lot of his friends were against this bill and not particularly taken with his gloating on its passage. I don't begrudge people who don't support this bill. They are fully within their rights to oppose the bill, be it for policy or ideology. I had couple of civil debate with my friends about the bill on my own statuses about the effectiveness of the bill, cost control and the long-term effects. I will fully admit that this bill does not go far enough on cost-control, there are deals for pharmaceutical companies, and I don't particularly like the individual mandates (from a "being forced to buy private insurance point of view. It is there for a good reason, though). It's okay to have a civil debate on the pros and cons of a certain legislation as long as all points of debate are based in fact and based in reality.
Hopefully, you have gotten the gist of my forshadowing...what followed on his status was not civil debate on policy, but merely devolved in racism, bigotry and pure ignorance when they couldn't find an argument against me.
It all started out innocently (or how innocent politics can get on facebook):
My friend posts his status and comments immediately on it.
Wait ten years and see how much people hate "socialism." You're welcome, by the way, everyone who opposed the legislation and is therefore wrong and doesn't know it yet.
I comment on right afterwards stating how that's exactly what happened with Social Security and Medicare and today even the teabaggers scream "Get your government hands off my Medicare."
Of course party was soon crashed by "Conservative 1" (I'm going to preserve everyone's privacy in this diary).
Look me up in China in 10 years when America is no longer a country.
I'm in a good mood, so I just comment if that similar to:
Ha is that like Rush Limbaugh saying that he is going to go to Costa Rica if this passes, without knowing that Costa Rica has socialized medicine just like every other country in the world?
And this is when the talking points kick in: "Conservative 2" joins the party and decides to talk about the debt. Specifically:
this is a poor time to pass legislation that will just increase the national debt, if anything we need to make cuts instead of increasing spending, big government is not a good thing
and Conservative 1 follows with:
You guys are all gonna be really happy about this in a few months when your in he hostpital for 6 months waiting to get a prescription of liquid childrens tylenol for a migrane headache that leads to a brain anneurism
Palm-to-head moment, right? It's clear at this point to fight ignorance with facts. So I naively try it:
This bill will decrease our debt by 1.3 Trillion dollars over the next 20 years according to the CBO.
It's been endorsed by hundreds of organizations including the top 10 biggest physician groups, AARP, hospital organizations, et al.
The response?
the cbo can kiss my american ass
Where's the logic? Where's the fact? Where's the argument? I like the "american" part. It may not be clear to all of you, but as someone of Indian descent (clear from my name/profile picture) I could see what he was trying to do...
And Conservative #2 thinks he's a hotshot who knows who to score bills better than the CBO:
what do u think it will cost to insure every american? more than wat the tax payers are giving to the government now, all we rele do with the national debt is pay the "minimal" payments (the interest) hence its constance rising
who ever thinks spending more money=less debt needs to retake a couple of math classes
The irony of course is that I'm an Economics/BME major and going to go into medicine. (Not that good at writing, so sorry for grammatical errors in advance).
Have you read the bill or even know what's in it? By the way, there are tax increases and huge savings coming from medicare due to a deal to fix the unfunded Medicare Part D that cost 1 Trillion dollars by the Bush administration with the pharmaceutical companies.
Here's a challenge. Tell me what's in the bill that you think is destroying America. Name one provision that is remotely socialism. I'll give you a hint, there isn't even a public option.
His response:
listen i dont know anything about [misspelling of my first name] or [my last name], but i do know the cbo hasnt done a single study on how their gonna react to gettin their ass beaten by the american people
His friend's:
ok since u are all high and mighty feel free to look down upon me but tell me why you would want to pay higher taxes, wouldnt you want to bring home more money to your family to better your own life and well being?
And conservative #3:
Your telling me you have read every word of this 2,000 page bill? Cause if you have, there is no way you are a successful college student, because you would have to spend your time reading this, rather than doing school work.
Oh, and when you can't get government loans anymore, and scholarships get cutoff from the changes to student loans that will have to be made, you will rethink what you have been supporting.
Once again conservatives are wrong, since apparently you can either read a bill or be good at college - mutually exclusive choices? Too bad for him just devoted the better part of my last 2 years to politics at the expense of my sleep. At this point, I pretty much just had enough and "went all in."
Um because this way I'm not paying for the emergency room visits by the uninsured (which increases my insurance right now). Having insurance means that people will be able see primary care physicians lowering health care costs in general.
Health People are a positive disemobodied shock to the labor market. Healthy workers -> happy workers -> increased GDP/output.
It's also a positive externality for society in general lowering poverty rates. Poverty rates in seniors fell dramatically after passage of medicare.
Oh and as a future doctor, I'd like to treat all patients not just those who can afford it. Even if that means my taxes go up. Are you arguing against Medicare/Social Security? You pay taxes into that don't you?
This way my insurance is guaranteed to cover me when I get sick or if I get cancer. This way women aren't discriminated against and pay higher insurance. This way there will be more competition with the state regulated private insurance exchanges.
Yes and I have read the bill. It big double space text with huge margins. Took me a few hours.
They were government loans before, just through a middleman who charged additional interest. You can still get private loans, you know. Now government loans (that were being made already) will be made directly with the people saving a lot of money.
This is where they got angry. Apparently reading the bill is un-American(?). News to me in my 18 years of being an American.
well that is good for u im glad you have time to do that, im busy being an american, playing sports going to my wonderful highschool.
insurance companies arent there for your benifit they are there to make money, u have a problem with it start your own and lower the rates
social security wont b around for my parents so why would i want it?
and that great u want to be a doctor now that your salary will b regulated by the government
More illogical statements. Apparently getting insurance means that people go to the hospital with the common cold:
dude you better go to bed youve gotta be ready to treat all 7876578467 quadrillion americans that will be checking into teh hospital with the common cold tomorrow
And the guy who made the racist remarks before, comes for a repeat:
and you and harold are wanted at guantanamo bay to film "harold and kumar 3; amercians flee the country" o wait obama already closed that sum bitch down,, looks liek your outa work, not taht you would have recieved the pay anyway.... whammmmmmm
My response before I called it a night:
Social Security is solvent past 2075. This bill increases the solvency of Medicare for another 9 years (better than doing nothing right?).
You realize that Presidents like Regean et al. have dipped their hand it the funds for social security and medicare to pay for their budgets, right? That's why social security has financial problems.
Those baby boomers are retiring have already paid into it. How does it make sense that they can't get what they already paid into it? It doesn't make sense because there are other factors involved.
Insurance will be passed to 30 million more Americans. not whatever number you just said. And they won't be going to the hospital (that's the entire point), genius! They'll be going to primary care doctors. Why would they go for a common cold? They are still paying for private insurance just like everyone else.
You're busy being an American? Haha. That's a funny statement. How much time does that take you? Any more than the other 300 million Americans?
Right and my salary will be regulated by the government? Where are you getting that, dear. Is it in the bill? Have you read it?
You guys are a riot. Openly professing that you are ignorant about what's in the bill and then complaining that I waste my time reading the bill and yet still complaining about what's in the bill. Also you have some fascination with "being American," asses, kicking, and the CBO (in that order). Do you have any sense of historical perspective or any facts to back up any statements? No sources for anything that you say, disregard non-partisan scoring of the bill... In other words prototypical conservatives.
It may blow your mind that I'm an Economics major and believe in free markets and free trade. I also, however, have an understanding on economies of scale, perfect information and what the model market is supposed to be like and why it isn't in the real world.
I also have eyes and can see that a system is broken when we are paying twice per capita for each American (including the uninsured) compared to other countries and not getting better health care for that.
Night.
Here's the last response before my friend came back:
dear god ( you probably dont beleive in him),,, but how long did it take u to google that one, im growing a damn beard over here, my fuckin eyes are bleeding i guess ill be at your emergency room in the mornig,, i should get outa there sometime by next august...
Notice how they completely ignore anything I say. It's because deep down they know that we are right when we presents the facts. Instead all they can do is retort in nonsensical arguments irrelevant from health care.
They could not list anything in the bill. They didn't understand at all what it was about. They asked if I had read the 2000+ page bill...and when I said yes, he responded by saying "well I am too busy being American, playing sports, and going to high school." Oh and they also had a fascination with kicking the ass of CBO. Apparently when reality isn't nice to them, they kick reality's ass. And when it was clear that I had facts to back up my opinion, and they didn't even know what was in the bill, their argument basically delved into subtle racial slurs against me (from the way this guy was talking it seemed like he didn't consider me an American...especially since I READ the bill gasp).
When my friend got back and saw the messages (he's a staunch Democrat) he was absolutely disgusted by the racism and stupidity of his friends. And commented that this was a school that hardly sends kids to good schools for being a "wonderful high school." It's kind of sad that our rural schools are failing a generation of students, isn't it? I'm not concerned with them being conservative...but they clearly don't have a logical thinking process. There is no critical thinking.
Same deal with my friend from the pan-handle area in Florida (aka the Alabama part of Florida). His facebook was filled with people saying things along the lines of "Obama...thanks for sending our country down the drain."
Me? My facebook was filled with people celebrating the bill. And I come from a wealthy, relatively Republican, suburban Illinois. A few people were against the bill, but the debate was civil and based in facts and policy.
Isn't it funny that these people who undoubtedly come from far less privilege than where I am from are the ones against the bill? And isn't it sad that they are proud of their own ignorance and attack people who actually read legislation as being un-American. They don't use arguments they argue based on beliefs and what they are told to say. They also attacked me for being an atheist/not Christian (though their only guess that I was my name as they have no access to my profile).
It is sad to say the least. I stopped commenting after after the 38th comment. At that my point I didn't want to hurt my friends relationship with them. In the end of all that, I would like to note that they could not argue against a single thing that I had said. They could not refute one point. Doesn't that just blow your mind? I mean come on. I'm an unabashed liberal and even I can come up with points in this bill that conservatives can legitimately dislike. Interestingly, they didn't even talk about the individual mandate (maybe they are already insured?).
What's the good news in all of this? The conversation carried on for 102 total comments in which people came in my defense and attacked these idiots for being racist, not knowing what they were talking about, and culturally and historically ignorant. And there was another thread with 67 comments. At the end of the day a girl that was reading the comments came to the same conclusion:
my eyeballs hurt from reading the extensive debate about health care on your page. owwww. but actually i agree with you and sulthernao, lets be honest [conservative1] and [conservative2] dont really know anything about the bill, and their comments were bordering racist and very ignorant. but shhhhhhh [conservative1] and [conservative2] might beat me up at school tmm for being on "your side" haha :)
I don't know this girl, and she was probably talking jokingly about the "beat me up at school [tomorrow] for being on 'your side,'" but to me this was still pretty chilling. This is why I'm writing this diary. People are intimidated by the hatred and vile nonsense coming out of the mouths of teabagging conservatives.
And in another argument on another one of my friend's statuses, I ended the argument in one post (I learned my lesson from the first argument I got into) [in italics are quotes from this guys postings]:
^So what exactly in the bill are you opposed.
The state run private insurance exchange? Subsidies to buy insurance? Requiring that insurances companies cover people with pre-existing conditions? Banning lifetime caps and rescissions of healthcare when you are sick? Fixing the medicare donut hole? That young adults can be on their parent's plan till 26? The small business tax credits to pay for health insurance for their employees? The lack of the employer mandate on such companies? The lack of the public option?
You realize that this bill is less liberal than Nixon's and just a bit more to the right than what Republicans proposed in the 1990s?
You realize that not only has the AMA endorsed this bill, but so have the next 9 biggest physician groups? So has the American Hospital Association. So has AARP. So have the pharmaceutical companies. So have over 300 organizations.
Who hasn't? The insurance companies. Which is actually kind of funny because since they are going to see a huge increase in enrollments due to this bill.
"if you think that the kind of healthcare Nancy Pelosi, Harry Ried, or Barack Obama are getting is what the average, socialized healthcare-covered American is gonna get, then you're stupider than I give most Democrats credit for. "
You realize that ALL federal employees get access to the same exchange, right?The exchange that is all private insurance companies that already complying to rules that this bill will enact for all other insurance. From the janitor to members of congress. While you are right the exchange in this bill is different - it's a state based exchange that will comply to the same standards as the federal exchange (the senate couldn't pass a federal exchange with 60 votes, even though the house did pass the same federal exchange that all federal employees get access to).
Why is it that Republicans poison their own points with their arguments? It's clear that you don't know what is in the bill. From that statement.
"Do you think Obama would let his dear Sasha and Malia fall prey to the dangers of a system like Medicaid?"
The dangers? Any further explanation? Sources? And by the way the answer is yes, he would let his children to be on Medicaid (although they wouldn't qualify for Medicaid).
Do you realize that Obama lost his mother to a private insurance "death panel" that refused to cover her cancer treatment? I think that he would rather have is mother covered with Medicare, since they would not have refused treatment to his mother.
I realize that medicare and medicaid are very different programs. But Medicaid is mostly for the poor and children who otherwise wouldn't have an health insurance at all. I think people like something better than nothing.
Also do you realize that people on Medicare (which is essentially a single-payer system for the elderly) love it? Medicare given higher ratings than private insurance. Odd how socialized health insurance can be well run, huh? So well run that Republicans are attacking Democrats from making "cuts" to the program.
"Fuck no. They're gonna bleed the taxpayers for all they're worth to buy some nice private care, while we're all stuck with the shit they force down our throats and the point of a gun - with your glowing support."
Hmm...first of all I though it was conservatives who were 2nd amendment fans, but disregarding you hyperbolic and inane rant let's clear up stuff. There is no government run insurance in this plan. There is nothing in this plan that makes you buy a SPECIFIC plan. There is an individual mandate (in there to PROTECT health insurance companies from going bankrupt because they have to cover pre-existing conditions). There is a state-run private insurance exchange that is completely optional to join (it's only open to individual plans and small businesses).
If you like your insurance that you have now, nothing will be different except for a few things:
- You can be covered till age 26 by your parents plan. This is already Illinois law, but will make it a national law.
- Insurance will not be able to BREAK THEIR CONTRACT and drop you once you get sick and refuse to pay for your healthcare. I don't know about you, but I buy insurance so that they pay for my healthcare if I get sick. If they don't pay when I actually get sick, then I just lost all my money that I've spending in premiums.
- Small business tax credits to help fund their employees plans. There is no employer mandate on health insurance coverage.
- A state run, private insurance exchange that you may be eligible to access (as previously mentioned).
- Seniors will see the Medicare donut hole removed.
If you don't have insurance now.
- You will be required to buy insurance. This is to prevent a "free rider" problem, in which people will only buy an insurance policy while in a hospital bed. This is to make sure that fair contracts are be made on both sides of the contract.
- If you aren't insured, then you will be taxed/penalized. This tax will go to hospitals so that when they take care of the uninsured they will not lose money, like they are today.
Here is the language of the tax:
"Under the federal plan, starting in 2014, the annual penalty for not having insurance is $95, but rises after that. In 2016, for example, a person would pay the greater of two alternatives: either a flat annual fee of $695 or 2.5 percent of their annual income."
The tax is also capped at the cost of basic health insurance. I believe that it is at $88,000 of a family of four. Or something like that. This 2.5% is much lower than the cost of buying health insurance which is 8-10% of your income.
A lot of economists say that this tax is actually not enough to deter the "free rider" problem.
- You be able to get access to a state run private exchange.
- There is a Medicaid eligibility expansion that you can join if you wish.
Bottom line:
Doctors and Hospitals support this bill. This is not a radical bill. I don't think you know what is actually in this bill because you seem to decrying things that are not in the bill. And yes, before you ask I have read the entire "2000+" page Senate Bill (which by the way is double spaced with large font and large margins).
There are reasons to be legitimately opposed to the bill from a Conservative and Liberal point of few. The things you mentioned aren't legitimately policy or ideological reasons to oppose this bill.
The very next comment (by some person I don't know at all):
damn, treated
The original poster? Well he never came back to discuss it.
Look. The point is we have to fight hatred with facts. We can't win everyone, namely the teabaggers, but we can get everyone else using facts. And who really cares what teabaggers think anyway? The polling that came out today showed what happened to public opinion as soon as the media started to actually talk about what's in the bill. WE NEED TO KEEP THIS UP.
The facts are on our side. Don't allow yourself to be intimidated. Don't allow others to be intimidated.
This bill is a good one. I say that as a liberal and as an Economics major (though feel free to take Paul Krugman's word over mine, everytime)!
My friends initial comment was right:
Wait ten years and see how much people hate "socialism." You're welcome, by the way, everyone who opposed the legislation and is therefore wrong and doesn't know it yet.
Let's also just say that I have come to the conclusion that maybe my generation is a little less liberal than I initially thought, at least on fiscal matters. But there is hope! I still think we are still very socially liberal. While racism/bigotry isn't dead in our generation, we are getting there!