The byline date on this is a week old, but it was just forwarded to my by my son.  Last week Bruce Bartlett, longtime conservative Republican, wrote an article in Forbes  wherein he reviewed the beliefs (certainly can't call it knowledge) that Teabaggers have about Federal Taxes.  The astounding results (and correct answers) below.

Obigatory Thank-you update .... I really did step away for my A.M. Latte break to come back and find a very nice discussion going on.  I tried to tip pretty much everybody but feel a bit overwhelmed in terms of responding to each post. * sigh *  Personally - I find that the kinds of facts that Barlett presented very helpful - especially when dealing with my saner Republican friends...

Questions #1: "How much does the Government get in taxes as a percentage of GDP?

Teabagger Answer #1:  (Caveat - first you have to assume they know what a percentage is, and then you have to assume they know - even vaguely - what GDP stands for and is) ..... drum roll ... average of 42%, and median of 40%

Max in history (WWII) was around 20%.  Right now, ALL Federal Taxes(including personal, corp, payroll, etc.) = 14.8%

Question #2:  How much does a typical family making \$50,000 pay in federal income taxes?

Teabagger Answer #2: (Again, this is a bit tricky - is that w-2 50K, gross income 50K? Is it taxable 50K? - so room for some multiple correct answers.)  Their average response was \$12,700, and median response was \$10,000 (just as an aside, I wonder how many could explain the difference between average and median, and then give a mathematical example of how the two numbers could be different?)

OK - several ways to slice this.  According to IRS tax tables, a single person with \$50,000 in taxable income last year would owe \$8,694 in federal income taxes, and a married couple filing jointly would owe \$6,669.

As Bartlett points out

But these numbers are high because to have a taxable income of \$50,000, one's gross income would be higher by at least the personal exemption, which is \$3,650, and the standard deduction, which is \$5,700 for single people and \$11,400 for married couples. Owning a home or having children would reduce one's tax burden further.

So ... Bartlett notes ...

According to calculations  by the Joint Committee on Taxation, a congressional committee, tax filers with adjusted gross incomes between \$40,000 and \$50,000 have an average federal income tax burden of just 1.7%. Those with adjusted gross incomes between \$50,000 and \$75,000 have an average burden of 4.2%.

Now, if you include FICA and Medicare taxes, then "those earning between \$40,000 and \$50,000 have an average tax rate of 12.3%, and those earning between \$50,000 and \$75,000 pay a rate of 14.5%." [one of the things that this demonstrates is the regressive nature of FICA, something all those flat taxers should really think about.]

And finally Question #3 (the reality based answer to which should be on billboards across the country)

Question #3:  Have personal taxes gone up or down under President Obama?

Teabagger Answer #3:  No brainer - two thirds thought they had gone up.

Reality Answer #3:  To quote Bartlett:

As noted earlier, federal taxes are very considerably lower by every measure since Obama became president. And given the economic circumstances, it's hard to imagine that a tax increase would have been enacted last year. In fact, 40% of Obama's stimulus package involved tax cuts. These include the Making Work Pay Credit, which reduces federal taxes for all taxpayers with incomes below \$75,000 by between \$400 and \$800.

According to the JCT, last year's \$787 billion stimulus bill, enacted with no Republican support, reduced federal taxes by almost \$100 billion in 2009 and another \$222 billion this year. The Tax Policy Center, a private research group, estimates that close to 90% of all taxpayers got a tax cut last year and almost 100% of those in the \$50,000 income range. For those making between \$40,000 and \$50,000, the average tax cut was \$472; for those making between \$50,000 and \$75,000, the tax cut averaged \$522. No taxpayer anywhere in the country had his or her taxes increased as a consequence of Obama's policies.

Bartlell (being an economist) then spends a number of paragraphs exploring why all these misconceptions might be out there, and even references an economic theory or two.  But in the end, this is what he concludes with.

Whatever the future of the Tea Party movement in American politics, it's a bad idea for so many participants to operate on the basis of false notions about the burden of federal taxation. It only takes a little bit of time to look at one's tax return to see what one is actually paying the Treasury, calculate the percentage of one's income that goes to taxes, and compare it with what was paid last year and the year before. People may then discover that their anger is misplaced and channel it into areas where it is more likely to bring about positive change.

So my conclusions:  The ignorance (willful or otherwise) is deep.  The anger (justified or otherwise) is high.  Teabagger solutions are silly at best and dangerous at worst.  But what bothers me more is that our side has been so woefully inadequate at laying out these facts.  These are not sophisticated concepts and the words can be small.

1.  Taxes are a small part of our nation's economy
1.  For all but the top 5% or 10%, your federal income taxes are low.
1.  And they just went lower!!!  -  Check your refund!!

I have heard Obama say this in town hall meetings, but for whatever reason, I have not seen it be a drumbeat message from others.

Final personal note.  It does my heart good that this article was forwarded to me by my son.  Shows he is out there reading and absorbing fact and not fantasy.

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#### Comment Preferences

• ##### And that's the way the Republic Party likes them(51+ / 0-)

Who needs a coherent policy when you can just mainline  disinformation directly from Fox news into the brains of the teabaggers. Home Scholers for freedom!! (sign seen at a teabagger rally)

Real conservatives are conservative. They like rules governing everything. American conservatives only like rules governing other people's pleasure. Digby

[ Parent ]

• ##### And with the MSM owned by corporatist(12+ / 0-)

Republicans, it's up to US to educate our fellow citizens, the Teabaggers.

LTEs and one-to-one conversations are really important. It's not always fun or easy -- some are totally closed minded -- but some are truly just misinformed. I have had ongoing conversations about Obama's policies during the election, and about health care reform with several people I work with or play music with. In some cases, it seemed like the information got through.

• ##### Let's distribute fact sheets at teabagger rallies(8+ / 0-)

Reality is the best counter to the RW propaganda.

Two columns:  Lies about taxes versus reality.
(Similarly for health reform law)

Peaceful, personal, one-on-one interactions with teabaggers at their local rallies might be an effective way to block out the GOP's  noise machine.

• ##### They would use them for toilet paper(6+ / 0-)

I'm not saying you can't reach them, but I think it has to be on a one on one level.  The herd mentality at the Tea Parties is just too strong. I live in a red area of a red state, and I do my best to correct misinformation, but it is a constant battle, and you have to tread carefully when the ignorance and anger is so widespread.

Real conservatives are conservative. They like rules governing everything. American conservatives only like rules governing other people's pleasure. Digby

[ Parent ]

• ##### You assume(12+ / 0-)

That they have reading comprehension and that they can read.  Closed minds don't care about facts.  They will continue to shout "you lie."

JMO

*the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

[ Parent ]

• ##### Oh silly liberal - not incapable of hearing facts(4+ / 0-)

They have a different reality than us.  A different world view.  Same type of folks who think the world is 6,000 years old.

This isn't really directed at you personally by the way, just that we liberals tend to think that facts are useful, when they are not when it comes to ideologues.

Lakoff list of traps:

http://www.commondreams.org/...

• ##### it is worth a try, seriously.(4+ / 0-)

and long as their are multiple links as proof.

Even though they will still be teabaggers, they will think twice before repeating their bullshit scared someone else will counter them with "facts".

Facts.  OODGEDY BOOGEDY!!!

~What Would Grayson Do?~

[ Parent ]

• ##### You're talking about the 23% of flat earthers(0+ / 0-)

who still thought W. was doing a heckuva job at the end of his second term here. They're willfully ignorant.

The Repug base makes the Flintstones look like a Reality TV Show.

"I feel stupid and contagious. Here we are now, entertain us" - Kurt Cobain

[ Parent ]

• ##### see the Parkinsons Dollar Tosser(0+ / 0-)

sometimes when you put the spotlight on their behavior, let them know they are being watched, it will shut them the fuck up.

Some have just enough sense not to want to advertise any humiliation.

~What Would Grayson Do?~

[ Parent ]

• ##### My son-in-law is spoon fed fnc talking(6+ / 0-)

point by his grandfather, and argues with my daughter daily about what the HCR bill means to Americans.  I keep my daughter well armed with FACTS so she can refute the talking points, however sometimes he thinks he can win the argument by yelling louder.

The sandcastle virtues are all swept away, in the tidal destruction, the moral melee....

[ Parent ]

• ##### same as namecalling(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:

once my Dad starts calling me a liberal idiot I know I won the argument.

Same with volume.

~What Would Grayson Do?~

[ Parent ]

• ##### A prejudice that has become a cult(13+ / 0-)

Teabaggerism has its roots in the 1960s with the rest of the conservative "movement" from the strains of anti-Communist Bircherism and reaction to the Civil Rights laws fused with latent racism.  And it fulfills a long tradition in American politics, especially redneck politics, of fear and loathing of "the other."

It has morphed into a cult, and I particularly blame Fox News, Grover Norquist and William Kristol but there are many others involved.  At least the forerunners of teabaggers responded to a certain extent to what they actually saw.  Today's lot are programmed to believe that Republicans always lower taxes and lower spending and Democrats always raise taxes and spending.  And they refuse to believe otherwise.  There have been diaries here in the past week or two where we've seen people pointing out to, say, teabag small business owners that give their employees health coverage, how much the new legislation is going to save them in tax credits, and their reaction is to tense up, smile insincerely and walk away with a look of "Yeah, right, and see those pigs flying out the window?"

Deprogramming will take years of intensive marketing and in practice it can never reach all of them.

• ##### Reagan and Proposition 13 in California(0+ / 0-)

also had a lot to do with it.  Without them, there would be no Ralph Reed, Grover Norquist, or Jack Abramoff--- friends from their days in the College Republicans.

"Just because I'm skinny doesn't mean I'm not tough" --Barack Obama, Oct. 26, 2009

[ Parent ]

• ##### We should not insult their passion(8+ / 0-)

To us they may seem ignorant, but to them they  believe in their cause. Calling them ignorant defeats our own purposes of changing their mind.

These folks are populists. They think they  understand history, etc., but the majority of them have been misled.

The precious constitution that they keep invoking was written on hemp paper folks. Let's go back to the founding and legalize hemp.

• ##### LIkewise people who believe ...(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
missliberties, BachFan, Pinecone, svboston

... in a healthier, more prosperous and more just America. Their passion should be respected as well.

Also, there are more of us than of them, we are the ones the American people voted for in waves - twice - and we have plenty to fight for if push comes to shove...

..and there are plenty on the left who are past histrionics and well en route to quiet resolve to protect their values and their vision of a better America - even for those who send our elected leaders death threats.

Because we're American like that.

And there are more of us.

And we are perfectly willing to fight to defend our values, liberties and country too.

"Love thy neighbor" is easy. It's next-door neighbors that are a challenge. :)

[ Parent ]

• ##### The fight is winning the battle of ideas(5+ / 0-)

Tea Baggers hate government and equate govt with taxes.

The anti-tax dogma has been beat into their heads for decades. Here comes the govt grab your wallet, etc. Little do they realize that that dogma gave tax cuts to the rich and the \$\$\$ did not trickle down it trickled out. See AIG and their overseas investment scams that bankrupted our country.

• ##### Don't even get me started on AIG(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, Pinecone

In the past their divisions cannibalized each other, because there was no compensation incentive to take enterprise-wide profitability into account.

It was not a case of left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. They damn well knew..and competed to do the same, only more ruthlessly.

"Love thy neighbor" is easy. It's next-door neighbors that are a challenge. :)

[ Parent ]

• ##### AIG is the conservatives dream business(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore

Their free market version of the UN, sort of. Using money as leverage to build business and influence abroad.

Ari Fleisher being Tiger Woods manager should come as no surprise. The Republican free market capital of the world, where no taxes are charged, the playground for the uber wealthy, Tiger Woods Dubai is neocon paradise. No taxes, cheap imported labor, and a playground for the wealthy. It is not a coincidence that the place is going bankrupt, because these conservative ideals of the anti-tax crowd are bankrupt as well.

• ##### They're idiots.(10+ / 0-)

And calling idiots idiots is exactly what we should be doing.

You're not going to change their minds... you're simply evil, and are to be ignored, attacked, and ultimately killed. And who's going to listen to evil?

When you admit to yourself that these people actually hate you because you're a liberal, then you'll begin to see what can be done with them that has a snowball's chance in Hell of actually working.

And changing their minds isn't on that list.

--Shannon

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
"Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

[ Parent ]

• ##### No....(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
hannah, mmacdDE

As I mentioned, I work in Home Health Care and some of my clients are 'these idiots' as you say. They are misguided, in some cases badly misguided, but they are often good down to earth folks.

The folks who we should detest are the folks that are intentionally using  misleading information and out and out lies, to deceive these people by inflaming their fears and working them into an irrational populist frenzy.

• ##### Make it personal. (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
BYw

My Dad is a union nurse working class teabagger.  He once decided to have the liberal policies are the reason "niggers" don't work and all these minorities are on welfare, we enable them blah blah blah conversation.  So I told him I felt sorry for the black and hispanic veterans he cares for at the VA because he must surely provide them substandard care with that attitude.

He got pissed.  Almost kicked me out of his house if my stepmother hadn't been there (fine by me).  I stood my ground.  Said I can't imagine he provides them decent care if they have no value to him as human beings.  He asserted that he was a good nurse and his personal opinions had no effect on the care he provides. riiiight.  This was all in front of my children.

At no time, regardless of relationship, is it right to let racism stand unchallenged.

So make it personal if you can.

~What Would Grayson Do?~

[ Parent ]

• ##### The KKK and civil rights foes had passion(12+ / 0-)

and felt that they were populists, too.

These people are their successors and I will mock their passion for pissing on people, their racism and homophobia and their sheer general nastiness.

Why yes, I am Catholic.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Well one of them haters was(0+ / 0-)

Robert Byrd.

Just like there were Reagan Democrats, shouldn't we want Obama Republicans.

I realize that a few on the fringe are beyond reach, but that is the fringe.

• ##### They're not ignorant, but their ability(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
CWalter

to connect cause and effect is lacking.  There's a disconnect and it may even be physical, a response to some subtle insult to the brain while it was developing.

[ Parent ]

• ##### They do not "seem" ignorant. They ARE ignorant.(0+ / 0-)

If stating that simple truth is an "insult to their passion," so be it.

At least I am not condescending enough to suggest that these schmucks are "misled." They are grownups -- it is their responsibility not to be misled.  Personally, I think anyone who goes around saying Obama was born in Kenya and health reform is akin to Dachau WANTS to be misled.

And finally -- if these clowns are populists, my farts are Chanel No. 5.

• ##### That is funny. I hope you don't mind but(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, wonderful world

I'm going to make that my comment on my facebook page when I share the Barlett article.

Unapologetically pro-citizen. Not anti-corporation just very pro-citizen.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Its not about "taxes".(44+ / 0-)

The whole "Dont tread on me" patriotism is a smoke screen.  The movement is about the scary "others" supposedly taking over the country.  They all want to live in the 1950s.

You want to "take your country back"?  Well tough shit, you cant have it.

Also, I can kill you with my brain.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Especially since "Their Country"(18+ / 0-)

only exists in their nostalgia clouded minds.

Lemon curry?

[ Parent ]

• ##### Oh, really?(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Anjana

How come I can watch "Leave it to Beaver" on the TV machine then?

"I'm tired of pretending that 'stupid' is a virtue." - Leonard Pitts, Jr.

[ Parent ]

• ##### 'Take my country back' from WHOM?(14+ / 0-)

Tea baggers don't understand the first thing about a democracy:  whoever gets the most votes WINS! They lost and simply cannot accept that fact.

• ##### It really is about taxes(12+ / 0-)

Dig down and that is the heart of the argument that the business community is  making. Don't tax me, because taxes equals government and like Reagan said, govt is bad.

The conservative elites have carefully crafted this message for decades. We know Bush was the frosting on their cake. They cut taxes and regulation and we had an economic meltdown.

• ##### or even more to the point(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

the tea baggers stand for lassie faire.

• ##### To clarify a little bit(10+ / 0-)

They're totally laissez-faire except for massive corporate subsidies in the form of straight cash payments and/or massive tax cuts, farm subsidies (private and big ag), Wall Street handouts like the private student loan industry, and any government entitlements like Social Security, disability, or Medicare they personally may collect.

But other than that, yeah.  Teabaggers are all about laissez-faire economics.  Except for the fact that it's a French word and therefore anti-American, of course.

• ##### Exactly!(9+ / 0-)

The prime example is the guy who called for bricks to be thrown through Dem office windows and turns out to live on SS disability checks! This is not about goverment handouts, it really is about "the other" taking charge.

Just another socialist fuckstick homosinner!

[ Parent ]

• ##### The sad irony(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
L Boom

is that they have no clue, that they are protesting for the status quo or to keep the rich richer. No clue.

It enrages me that very smart operatives in the GOP study psychological behavior just to play on peoples lowest most intolerant instincts....!

• ##### Yep(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, missliberties, Matt Z

"Keep the government out of my Medicare!"

The mind boggles.

• ##### It is not all about taxes, because taxes(8+ / 0-)

are fine when the taxes are going to pay for their Medicare, their VA benefits, their farm subsidies, etc.  Let's be real this Tea Party outrage is about who is calling the shots in Washington, i.e., the current POTUS.  Otherwise, these same people would have been in the streets when GWB was in the Whitehouse.

• ##### The fear(0+ / 0-)

that Obama will 'favor' his people. Health Care is seen as welfare for the blacks by this crowd.

• ##### Isn't(0+ / 0-)

Limbaugh pushing the line that HCR is "reparations" for slavery

"I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."--Will Rogers

[ Parent ]

• ##### It is all about taxes for the puppeteers(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
majii

Taxes and regulations, anything that hinders profit.

The racist puppets have a mishmash of concerns, including brown people, guns, and keeping government out of medicare.  They are best represented by that crying "I want my country back!" lady.

• ##### I don't agree.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Puffin

You are correct that the Republican elites have been pushing for lower taxes and smaller government for decades, but the tea-bagger rage is new.  The tea-baggers are not the Republican elite, and indeed, the tea-baggers are, by and large, disdainful of the Republican elite, since they have used the rhetoric of economic responsibility while completely ignoring it in practice.

Myself, I think the tea-baggers are attempting to mount a cultural revolution, of which tax policy is only a minor part, and the policy is just standard conservative boilerplate.  But unlike the Republican elite, the tea-baggers actually believe it.

-5.13,-5.64; EVERYTHING is an approximation! -Hans A. Bethe

[ Parent ]

• ##### The tea baggers are a new(0+ / 0-)

and improved version of the John Birch Society, where all things government are seen as a communist conspiracy.

Twisted sister, Glenn Beck is on the far far right fringe of the Birch Society.

• ##### Im talking about the Teabaggers...(0+ / 0-)

Also, I can kill you with my brain.

[ Parent ]

• ##### tea baggers are the(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
grytpype

disenchanted conservative base of the Republican party.

• ##### From todays Frank Rich:(0+ / 0-)

In fact, the current surge of anger — and the accompanying rise in right-wing extremism — predates the entire health care debate. The first signs were the shrieks of "traitor" and "off with his head" at Palin rallies as Obama’s election became more likely in October 2008. Those passions have spiraled ever since — from Gov. Rick Perry’s kowtowing to secessionists at a Tea Party rally in Texas to the gratuitous brandishing  of assault weapons at Obama health care rallies last summer to "You lie!" piercing the president’s address to Congress last fall like an ominous shot.

If Obama’s first legislative priority had been immigration or financial reform or climate change, we would have seen the same trajectory. The conjunction of a black president and a female speaker of the House — topped off by a wise Latina on the Supreme Court and a powerful gay Congressional committee chairman — would sow fears of disenfranchisement among a dwindling and threatened minority in the country no matter what policies were in play. It’s not happenstance that Frank, Lewis and Cleaver — none of them major Democratic players in the health care push — received a major share of last weekend’s abuse. When you hear demonstrators chant the slogan "Take our country back!," these are the people they want to take the country back from.

Also, I can kill you with my brain.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Hmmmm....(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
grytpype, Matt Z, Pinecone, Puffin

They all want to live in the 1950s.

NAH....more like the good ol' 1850's, before the Civil War.

I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't ask!/don't tell!

[ Parent ]

• ##### the 50s?(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

Weren't the scary people coming in the Germans and Koreans and Japanese and other assorted Eastern Europeans?

Best to go back to the 40s.

• ##### The 1950s?(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, Cali Techie

When the top tax rate (for the wealthiest Americans) was 90%. But I suspect they don't know that...

• ##### Thanks for this bit of reality(31+ / 0-)

I worked in the accounting field including payroll and pretty much know when people are pulling numbers out their ass.  Most people do not have a good grasp of numbers, even though they think they do.

Keep in  mind, these teabaggers think that all of their money is going to welfare programs, to programs for people even less educated than they are.  They think their money is going to, you know, dark folks.  They are incorrect in their thinking but to them, they are fighting those "types" that used to go to ACORN.

Reality is, more white people are on welfare than dark skinned people.

Unfortunately, family let me know how they feel and that's why I point this out.

Teabaggers have absolutely no compassion, they are all very, very selfish and yet they look at others as being selfish.

Truth is, they are ignorant, racist and basically, gullible people.

-6.13 -4.4 Where are you? Take the Test!!!

[ Parent ]

• ##### Gullible(7+ / 0-)

A lot of folks on disability (I do home health care) are the rough biker types who lived fast and had strokes young.

The reality is that there are a lot of poor folks in this country, and they got even poorer when they voted for the anti-tax, anti-government conservatives.

• ##### gullible and scared.(5+ / 0-)

the world has changed in ways they don't understand and they are very fearful of change.  Fear can lead to irrational behavior.  I'm sure many of these people are perfectly nice individuals who have been led like lemmings off the cliff by fear-mongers like Beck.  I have hope, however small, that one on one and through experience they can edge back from the abyss they seem headed towards. You're right, they are ignorant and racist.  Ignorant is curable. (stupid goes straight to the bone, but ignorant is curable.)   It is sad to see these people being misled and taken advantage of, even as they become more and more dangerous.

"I will sing you a song no one sang to me...you can be anybody that you want to be

[ Parent ]

• ##### Thank You So Much(8+ / 0-)

This is the point we should keep bringing up over and over and over.

The Tea Party as we know is not a truly grassroots movement. The folks that fomented the anger are the elite rich anti-tax crowd. The ones that have been around forever.

The extremists in this group hate Abe Lincoln for creating a stronger federal union. The anti-tax crowd has been around forever. It's the Grover Norquists, and the Jack Abramoff's the Ralph Reeds, and the John McCains.

• ##### Tipped for "the folks that fomented the anger(6+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Lilyvt, Hirodog, Cali Techie, Matt Z, Pinecone, Olon

are the elite rich anti-tax crowd."

Many of the teabaggers are being used. They just don't realize it.

• ##### Yup....(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, Cali Techie, Matt Z, Pinecone

Many of the teabaggers are being used. They just don't realize it.

But, ya know, they have every right to their own willful ignorance.
It's just such a shame that they're defeating their own best interests with their ignorance.
They're the ones who'll lose big time in the end, not the fat cats who are fanning their fears.

I think, therefore I am........................... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose AKA Engine Nighthawk - don't ask!/don't tell!

[ Parent ]

• ##### This may be a bit off topic but I am currently(15+ / 0-)

writing at a coffee shop across from a table of elderly men who are either having a tea party meeting or Ayn Rand book club meeting.  Did I mention I happen to be wearing my Obama shirt this morning?

• ##### Maybe you should move to a different table(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
merrinc, Pinecone

You don't want to send their blood pressure up. Having the EMTs come in could ruin your concentration.

"No, it's all right," said the prospective diner. "The slugs have formed a defensive ring." -- Moving Pictures. Terry Pratchett.

[ Parent ]

• ##### We are all coexisting splededly at the moment(4+ / 0-)

They can't expect to hold a meeting at a Starbucks and not run into a liberal, right?

• ##### Did you read Doonesbury this week?(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone

All about the gun-carrying at Starbucks.

"No, it's all right," said the prospective diner. "The slugs have formed a defensive ring." -- Moving Pictures. Terry Pratchett.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Go-Bama!!!(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
skohayes

Hope you don't curdle his cream ...   ;-)

• ##### Ha Ha. No cream for me, though(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, BYw, two moms in Az

I like my coffee the way I like my presidents; strong and black.

• ##### But he really is ....(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
evilstorm, ecologist

Cafe au lait ...

• ##### lol (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z

we breakfasted at a Mimi's next to a couple who were looking over catalogs of guns and ammo, discussing what they should stock up on to "protect themselves" from the progressives.  (not exact words, but pretty close)  Way to ruin a perfectly good breakfast.  They looked so yuppy harmless, but spilling such vitriol.  I have no objection in the abstract to people having guns for protection.  But I'm not the one they ought to be worrying about!

"I will sing you a song no one sang to me...you can be anybody that you want to be

[ Parent ]

• ##### About the rich people(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, BYw, degreesofgray

For all but the top 5% or 10%, your federal income taxes are low

Their taxes are historically low and the main beneficiary of all the tax cuts implemented by republicans since Reagan.

"Reagan proved deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney

[ Parent ]

• ##### The top 1%(5+ / 0-)

pay an average of 16% in Federal taxes. Now since most of their money is investments or stock options they pay that low rate as a capital gains tax. For those not familiar with how that works, you only pay that tax when you take the gain, not when you earn it and it can be offset by losses from past 3 yrs. The FICA tax is not paid by anyone earning over \$90,000.  Now if they really pay 16% they are mostly stupid since there are a variety of ways to dodge it. They are not paying 16% on all of their money, just the portion that they choose to spend. The group that pays the highest income tax rate are the middle income earners. Those between \$90,000 and \$350,000.  They pay (if memory serves) about 25% to 30%.

What is really shameful is that Teabaggers are being charged more in taxes than they used to be because state and local governments mostly refuse to raise or collect taxes (property or income)because it is a political hot potato. They are left with increased fees and sales tax. Even in the case of privatization, double taxation, which is a whole 'nuther story. Those who are hit the hardest by fees and sales tax are the low income and middle class because it is a greater portion of their dollars, therefore a higher tax rate.

The real culprit in all this are Corporations. They pay little or no tax. Why do you think they give out such large bonuses to Execs. A bonus is an expense and so it reduces the after tax income of the business. The Execs get the bonus in stock options which of course they can hold, and not pay tax on, then sell off only what they need when capital gains tax is to their advantage.

If the Tea Baggers would only understand how they have been screwed and protest against those who are screwing them, well then maybe I would cut them some slack.

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

[ Parent ]

• ##### Where do those numbers come from? (0+ / 0-)

As I have been saying, the numbers I have been seeing show that, pre-Reagan, the top 1% paid about 21.8% effective federal income tax rates pre-Reagan tax cuts, about 24% effective federal income tax rate under Clinton, and about 19% under Bush.  That's effective federal income tax rates -- i.e., the marginal rates applied against income, after taking into account deductions and exemptions.

I agree with you, though, that the cuts in corporate tax rates (which accounts in large part for the first chart on that page, which the second chart is federal income tax effective rates) have been more signficant that the cuts in federal income tax rates.  The Reagan cuts in federal income tax marginal rates were accompanied by a re-writing of AGI rules so that more income was subject to federal income tax.

• ##### Yes(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Sherri in TX

but income and capital gains are where the numbers get confusing. Most of the top earners take their salary in deferred compensation. So they are paying the majority of taxes on investments, not income. Capital Gains for long term are 15% so the 16% is probably a blended number. As for the link, I think it was a diary or comment here on Kos and I will have to dig it up from a few weeks ago.

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

[ Parent ]

• ##### one quibble(0+ / 0-)

The FICA tax is not paid by anyone earning over \$90,000

Small correction on FICA.  There is no limit on the Meicare portion of FICA which is a flat rate of 2.9%. Social Security is a rate of 6.2% and capped at \$6200, as of 2009.

For those who are self employed the rate for Social Security doubles to 12.4% until you hit the cap at \$12400.

In other words, Social Security taxes are extremely regressive and an actual tax on employement.

• ##### The rich are paying about 2% less(0+ / 0-)

in effective federal income tax rates today -- or as of 2006, before the Bush Tax cuts are repealed -- than they did in 1979, before the Reagan Tax Cuts.  See my other posts.

• ##### Nice diary. I'm afraid teabaggers use the words(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
kenlac, Matt Z, Pinecone, ahumbleopinion

"taxes", "guns", "gay marriage", "abortion", "bible" as little other than code words among themselves to show to each other that they all belong to the same group. It's not about what any of those words actually mean in the sense of reality and actual facts, but only about how often the word is used and if you can use one to feign being upset in the presence of others.

If the public option leads the US to Communism, then maybe we should spread Democracy by sending our for profit insurers to Iraq, Af., NK, China and Cuba.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Facts mean nothing to these folks(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, Matt Z, Pinecone

They can only repeat the FoxNews-RNC truthisms that are spewed 24/7. These folks still believe that Saddam had WMD for goodness sake. The GOP and Dick Armey and his corporate masters have whipped up this slice of the American electorate--20%--and all of the sudden we (the American people) are a divided electorate.

There is only one reason for this: the corporate powers that be are playing the race card to thwart the Obama Agenda that 53% of Americans voted for. And folks, He has not gone back on his word.

HCR, Student loans, withdrawal from Iraq. Folks, he has done more in 15 months than any of us had the right to expect. If he gets climate change by the end of 4 years, he will go down in history as the president who saved America. Mark my words.

Never underestimate the ability of the Right to over reach.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Great catch here, even if it is a week old.(16+ / 0-)

However, I have been finding that even with the recent spate of Republicans speaking out against the Tea Partiers, these loonies simply don't care what the facts are.  They don't f**king care.

But, it always helps to have more facts at our fingertips to forward to them.  I hope in spite of my experience with the loonies.

"And God separated the light from the dark, and did two loads of laundry"

[ Parent ]

• ##### Steam your milk or alternate beverage(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

using a figure 8 motion. When you make the coffee, be sure to have the pressure right.

Why yes, I am Catholic.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Thanks!!!(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
ems97007

I have a superauto espresso machine, but tend to grind the beans fresh and then use an "aeropress" for the espresso part and the machine frother for the soy milk.  the Aeropress really does give a nice taste, esp. if you follow instructions and don't use water over 170 degrees or so.

• ##### Right- don't scorch it!(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

I love the velvety texture and flavor that a good gentle steam gives to soy milk. I have made the mistake of overheating and yuck, scorching!

Why yes, I am Catholic.

[ Parent ]

• ##### It is not just FED tax(6+ / 0-)

You must add all the taxes and fees we have to pay today.

Fed, SSN, Medicare, state, county, city, water, sewage, gas, food, telecommunication, park fees, garbage fees, lic plate fees, school sports fees, etc,etc,etc

• ##### Taxes are how we get things done(21+ / 0-)

Behind all the mechanisms of U.S. government, there is one theoretical basis, that our government is one "of the people, by the people, and for the people" (and, yes, I know that's Lincoln's "Gettysburg Address").  We are the government.  Right?  Or wrong?  Let's decide.

When we are taxed by our government, aren't we really taxing ourselves, voluntarily, to pay for those things that we want to do and build collectively?  We have every right to insist that our taxes be used properly, but taxes are not "unnecessary" and they are not always onerous.  When you think about it, taxation is really the way we Americans get things done, collectively, without public ownership of the "means of production" (true socialism).  Taxation is really our best defense against socialism.  The attitude that we should all just take care of our own interests and forget about collectivism through government and taxation, is ludicrous.

How many miles of asphalt do you think you can afford to lay in your lifetime, how many miles of electrical line, how many dams and bridges you manage to build before you die, and how big do you think your national defense force can grow?

Taxes are America's way of getting things done.

• ##### taxes stop us from getting things done(0+ / 0-)

I could do a lot more if I didn't pay so much money for taxes.

• ##### really? like what?(12+ / 0-)

And it's no, nay, never...no nay never no more!

[ Parent ]

• ##### No, You'd Be Busy Doing A Shipload of THings(23+ / 0-)

for yourself that society does for you.

You're way way out to lunch on how civilization functions. Look how the people of Somalia live, where the taxes and government are about zero. Survival, because no advanced economy can operate without government.

We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

[ Parent ]

• ##### Please. How would you pay for the (4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
majcmb1, Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

war in Iraq?

BTW - if no taxes are so great, why are people in Somiali, Haiti doing so badly?

• ##### so none of this gets done?(27+ / 0-)

Social Security Medicare/Medicaid

State Children’s Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)

Police, Fire, and Emergency Services

US Postal Service

Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)

The US Railway System

Public Subways and Metro Systems

Public Bus and Lightrail Systems

Rest Areas on Highways

Sidewalks

All Government-Funded Local/State Projects

Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!)

Public and State Universities and Colleges

Public Primary and Secondary Schools

Sesame Street

Publicly Funded Anti-Drug Use Education for Children

Public Museums

Libraries

Public Parks and Beaches

State and National Parks

Public Zoos

Unemployment Insurance

Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services

Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, State or Federal Government (pretty much all of them)

Medical Services and Medications That Were Created or Derived From Any Government Grant or Research Funding (again, pretty much all of them)

Socialist Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro (Nazi-NASA Inventions)

Use of the Internets, email, and networked computers, as the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for subsequent computer networking

Foodstuffs, Meats, Produce and Crops That Were Grown With, Fed With, Raised With or That Contain Inputs From Crops Grown With Government Subsidies

Clothing Made from Crops (e.g. cotton) That Were Grown With or That Contain Inputs From Government Subsidies

If a veteran of the government-run socialist US military, VA benefits ? Smithsonian Museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History

The socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments

The government-operated Statue of Liberty

The Grand Canyon

The socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorials

The government-run socialist-propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery

NO FEAR. EVER.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Sweet list (21+ / 0-)

A list more complete than the one I was preparing :-)

Several years ago (it would have been late 2003 or in 2004), I went to a meeting of the Libertarian party in Guntersville Alabama, thinking that I might get involved in helping the Libertarian Party elect local candidates to office.

It didn't take long for me to understand that they were trying to achieve a totally unrealistic goal ... almost no government. In our modern world, that would be essentially chaotic and unworkable.

For instance, they could never explain adequately who was gonna pave my street or collect garbage in Grassy, Alabama (Zip 35016) ... "you and your neighbors will do it yourselves.  Or you'll pool your resources and pay for it."  Huh?  Quite obviously, they didn't know my neighbors.  That was not going to happen.  And if city contractors, paid for partly with public tax revenue, didn't pick up trash in Grassy Alabama, it would be dumped off the side of the mountain on Thompson Falls road ... I saw the evidence left behind by those who refused to pay a nominal fee for garbage pickup.  That's what would happen if we just rely on the social conscience and the sense of personal responsibility that all of us feel.  And that would be a huge mistake.

Oh, I see what the plan is ... the plan is to force compliance with social norms and to force individual responsibility.  That would become the government's primary role if the Libertarians have their way. Can you think of another country or society where government doesn't assume responsibility for such things as public health and social welfare, or infrastructure maintenance, but devoted itself to making sure that people abide by all social and moral strictures?  A society where the government forced people to "do the right thing"?  What country came to your mind?  Honestly, as much as some of us might like to see men publicly humiliated or beaten in the streets for wearing white athletic socks with sandals, that's not a feasible way to run a modern society.

The Libertarian Party in Alabama wanted to do away will all government, but didn't seem to have figured out how we'd educate our kids, assure clean water to our homes, provide public health services, ensure the safety of our food supply, that sort of thing ... things that, all-in-all, governments do pretty well for most of us.  No, they do it damned well.

• ##### Only if the black socks with sandals brigade(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

gets thrown in jail too...then I am with you to the last barricade!

You should do a diary (if you haven't already).

"No, it's all right," said the prospective diner. "The slugs have formed a defensive ring." -- Moving Pictures. Terry Pratchett.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Great comment(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, Matt Z, Pinecone, RhodaA

Do you mind if I save it to counter all the Libertarians that come on our liberal blog and post long screeds about liberty and no taxes and no regulations?

• ##### "Pooling resources"(3+ / 0-)

and then administering them is the seed of government on a small scale.

• ##### Why you hippy!(0+ / 0-)

don'cha know that the Corporations can do it cheaper and faster than any stupid govt! (and charge you a healthy 30% extra for it too)

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

[ Parent ]

• ##### I don't know of anybody -- not even the right (2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, coffejoe

wingers -- who argue that we should not pay ANY taxes.

The right wingers are fine with paying taxes for things like national security, infrastructure, public parks (which they see as part of infrastructure), police protection.  The kinds of things that the private market cannot do.

They think, however, that the federal government should not do much more than that.  They do not think that the federal government should be in the business of providing services and subsidies to people who do not have as many resource themselves.  They think that private charities should do that.  That's do not want to pay taxes to provide those things.

• ##### Yes, because charities always make sure to do the(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
skohayes

one essential thing for the poor and downtrodden that the government safety net never does:

Remind the peons of their place.

Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

[ Parent ]

• ##### I didn't say that view was correct, of course(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

it's simply a different philosophical view over what government is for.

My point was that arguments that "right wingers don't want to pay taxes for infrastructure, police, national security and the defense" is just wrong.  They do want to pay taxes for that.  Just not for a whole lot more.

• ##### I haven't seen a single sign from their rallies(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, bushondrugs

claiming they are OK with paying taxes for ANYTHING.

As a matter of fact, I think these people think the war in Iraq was free.

• ##### There are, of course, fringe wackos in (0+ / 0-)

every movement.  But if you actually TALK to the rational conservatives or libertarians (and there are a lot of them out there -- they are doctors, lawyers, CPA's, engineers, small business owners, etc.) that is what they will tell you. I work with a lot of them in my law firm, and I have right wing Christian Conservative relatives in California -- who are part of a very large similar group (think Rick Warren).  That is exactly their mantra.  The federal government should be only involved in a small number of things that private individuals and entities cannot do, and it should leave charity to private inidividuals and organizations.

• ##### they only take care of the "worthy" people(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, Dar Nirron

for example, the Catholic Church has withdrawm donations to a homeless shelter in Maine because the organization supported the gay marriage bill.
And withdrew their donations to various orgs in DC because they legalized gay marriage.

Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all. -Emily Dickinson

[ Parent ]

• ##### That is true, to an extent(0+ / 0-)

they are much, much more likely to think that people who make bad choices in life should have to live with the consequences of those choices.  They are much more likely to be willing to help the disabled, because they see that as something beyond their control, than they are willing to help someone who dropped out of high school, because they see that as a personal choice.  (For those people, they are more willing to provide free schooling than a subsidy.)  That's what I hear from them.

Actually, the philosophical reason they think charity should be left to the individual is because, in their words, "It's my money.  I earned it. If it's charity, I ought to be able to decide who I give it to."

• ##### But what they fail to understand is the national (4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, skohayes, bushondrugs

security eats up a big portion of taxes. Heck, we pay as much for our national security as the rest of the world combined.

These people are OK with a big "socialistic" government as long as it spend on things THEY approve of.

With that in mind, how the heck are they ANY different than progressives. Just like the tea baggers we also want a big government. The only difference is how we spend it.

In other words, to spend for the excessive national security, they want high taxes just like the rest of us.

• ##### I'm sick of our socialized wars.(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone

I am looking forward to Obama getting us out of Iraq.

A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Actually, not really(0+ / 0-)

for FY 2009, Federal Defense Spending was about 23% of overall federal spending.  SS and Medicare combined was about 39%.

But I agree that people on the right and on the left do not want to pay taxes for things that they do not think the federal government should be doing.  It's just that those on the right have different notions of what the federal government should be doing than those on the left.

• ##### Two points.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
LeighAnn

First - you had to combine SS and Medicare to get a number bigger than defense.

Second - the actual claim was that we spent more on defense than the rest of the world combined.  I don't know if that is true or not, but that was the actual statement made.

• ##### My point is that (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

defense is less than a quarter of the budget.  So, if you reduced the federal government to only those things the right wingers or libertarians thought the federal government should be doing (like defense and infrastructure), then yes, we'd all pay a lot less in taxes.

• ##### TBU ....(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
be the change you seek

A phrase I learned from reading "Switch" - a book about successful change initiatives.

TBU = True But Useless

In this case, yes - you are right, but the odds of any elected federal government eliminating Social Security, Medicare, and refusing to pay interest is so unlikely that the conclusion is "True But Useless."  Except as it might help us understand how bizarre their thinking really is.

• ##### Well, it definitely depends on what type of (0+ / 0-)

culture/society you want to live in. For example, I imagine may ancient Indian tribes were happier with their lives living from the land than many of us in our high-tech society today (and of course didn't have to pay taxes).

Morevover, its sometimes hard to define what "paying taxes" is. Take, for example, people living in North Korea. It wouldn't surprise me if large portions of the population weren't required to pay taxes at all- they just get a voucher for bread once or twice a week. Still, they have streets, etc. Since everyone in this case works for the government, they still paid taxes "indirectly".

If the public option leads the US to Communism, then maybe we should spread Democracy by sending our for profit insurers to Iraq, Af., NK, China and Cuba.

[ Parent ]

• ##### You forgot Tang ®(0+ / 0-)

NASA created the fuel for thousands of kids in the 60's so they could go out and protest their govt now.

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

[ Parent ]

• ##### Everybody daydreams(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

about the things they could have if they didn't pay THEIR taxes. However, all that daydreaming is done in the context of everyone else having paid their taxes so that all the common goods and services are still available. If you had to, in actuality, pay for all your peripheral needs out of your own pocket, with no social cooperation, you would be well and truly screwed. As I said to your buddy above, Somalia ought to look pretty damned good to someone with your attitude.

Life isn't a battle between good and evil, it's a battle between signal and noise.

[ Parent ]

• ##### How is it that YOU pay so much in taxes(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
be the change you seek

when you were certain you lost your job for smoking pot?

http://www.dailykos.com/...

• ##### Like Joe the Plumber(24+ / 0-)

who would have been a lot richer under the Obama administration...or my father-in-law, who (on Social Security and a small pension) is now worried he'll have to pay that health care tax on his non-earned income above \$200,000.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

• ##### You mean Joe Not A Plumber!(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, bushondrugs

What a joke.

You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Republicans have been pushing misinformation(24+ / 0-)

On taxes for years.

Back when the top marginal tax rate was 80% they were trying to convince middle-class families (who would never pay anything close to that rate) that the government was taking 80% of their gross income in taxes.  It's the scam the Republicans have been pushing for the longest time -- probably since Woodrow Wilson was in office.

• ##### You would think people would realize(14+ / 0-)

"I make \$40,000. I get to keep \$35,000.  That's not 80% or 40% or even 20%"

I mean, do these people even do their own taxes? Can they do basic math? Do they not realize that when they subtract how much they pay in taxes from how much they make they're not friggen paying 40% in taxes?

[ Parent ]

• ##### Well, they all cheat on their taxes(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
wonderful world, gsenski

So they really have no idea how much they're legally obliged to pay, and they assume that it's some astronomical figure.

• ##### I wouldn't assume that all of them cheat.(7+ / 0-)

I'm okay with saying Tea Baggers are misinformed or ignorant, but I wouldn't accuse them all of cheating on their taxes.

My ex-husband's family are teabaggers, but they are scrupulously honest with calculating their taxes.  Based what I have heard during family banter, even inflating the value of donated clothing is absolute no-no.  They'll whine up a storm about paying taxes, but that doesn't mean they're all cheating.

A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

[ Parent ]

• ##### I don't assume they cheat(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
gsenski

Because they're teabaggers --- I assume they cheat because tax cheating is rampant in the United States.

The government experiences a revenue shortfall of about three hundred fifty billion dollars every year due to tax evasion.

This is in a country with just about 300 million people.  Over \$1100 per person!

Of course, not everyone cheats on his or her taxes. The IRS estimates that the voluntary compliance rate is about 84% -- i.e., 16% of the population are tax cheats.  That's almost one in six.

Who's going to be more likely to pay their taxes fairly: someone who agrees with the principle of income taxation and is happy to pay his or her fair share; or someone who believes that the tax system is an unfair, illegal, unconstitutional imposition?

• ##### I think you would be insulted if someone(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z

on the right painted all their political opposition with one broad sterotypical brush.  And you would be correct, because we shouldn't stereotype people like that.  We especially shouldn't assume that people with certain political beliefs are more likely to be criminals.

In other words, sterotypying right wingers or libertarians as more likely to be tax cheats is wrong.  And, given the tax problems with a couple of Obama's nominees, probably not a smart political move, either.

• ##### So, my right wing Christian Conseravtive (2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
WIds, Pinecone

relatives are automatically tax cheats?

And (since one couple are CPA's) they have no idea what they pay in taxes?

I assure you that neither is true.  They just don't think that the federal government should be doing a lot of the things the federal government is doing, and they don't want to pay taxes to support those things.  They are willing to pay taxes to support national security, infrastructure, and things like that.  But not much more.

• ##### A big part of the problem is that lots of people(0+ / 0-)

look at their pay stubs and regard ALL of the difference between gross pay and net pay as "federal taxes." But in addition to Federal income tax, FICA tax, and state income tax (if their state has one) that difference can also include employee's share of health insurance premiums, contributions to a 401K or similar plan, and charitable giving that they voluntarily signed up for. In other words, purely voluntary expenditures.

Facts are sweet, but some people are factose intolerant

[ Parent ]

• ##### Could have stopped the thought earlier:(9+ / 0-)

Teabaggers Totally Ignorant

• ##### I'm pretty sure they also think(7+ / 0-)

that we should just invade other countries for what we need instead taxing any 'Muricans.

This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

• ##### The was Cheney's idea(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Snud, Cali Techie, Matt Z

pillage Iraq of all the oil to pay for the war. Unfortunately, America was outbid.  Oops.

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

[ Parent ]

• ##### Why not? They're ignorant about everything else!!(13+ / 0-)

They wouldn't want to break their perfect record

Happy just to be alive

• ##### there's huge misunderstanding about...(19+ / 0-)

the progressive income tax -- he should have asked about that. A lot of people think that when you move to a higher bracket you pay that higher percentage on all your income.

And it's no, nay, never...no nay never no more!

• ##### There's also a huge misunderstanding on the left (11+ / 0-)

as well, of course.

Just by way of example, most people here think that, before Reagan repealed those very high top marginal rates on the rich, they paid a LOT more in federal income taxes.

The truth is that, because there were so many deductions, exemptions, and exclusions on the federal income tax side before the Reagan tax cuts, the effective tax rates on the rich was, yes, higher than it is now, but not by a huge amount.

See the numbers here.  (The second chart is federal income taxes.)  The effective rate on the top 1% in 1979 was 21.8%, and in 2006, it was about 19%.

If you look at that same chart at the bottom 40%, they actually did get a tax cut during the Bush years (the top did too, of course.)

Moral of the story:  tax policy is much, much more complicated than talking about marginal tax rates.  However, because of that, overly simplistic -- and misleading -- talking points often sway the massess.

• ##### acording to that chart...(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
wonderful world, bushondrugs

total effective rate on the top 1% was 37% in '79, 27% in '82, no?

And it's no, nay, never...no nay never no more!

[ Parent ]

• ##### Nope -- you're looking at the wrong chart(5+ / 0-)

that first chart is total effective tax rate -- includes social security, corporate taxes, excise taxes, etc.

I'm addressing the myth that, in the days of 70% top marginal rates, the myth paid a lot more in federal income taxes due to those 70% rates.  Those rates are federal income tax rates, so to see what those 70% rates actually meant in terms of how much of their income the rich actually paid in taxes pursuant to those 70% rates, you have to look at the second chart -- the effective federal income tax rates.

Those 70% top marginal federal income tax rates, taking into account deductions, exemptions, and exclusions, meant that the rich paid an effective federal income tax rate of 21.8%.  Under 2006's top marginal federal income tax rate of 35%, after considering the drastically diminished exemptions, deductions, and exclusions available to the rich, they pay an effective federal income tax rate of 19%.

• ##### Thanks - I remember this(3+ / 0-)

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

[ Parent ]

• ##### Agree .... that was the era (pre Reagan) of(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
wonderful world, bushondrugs

all those sham tax shelter deals....

• ##### And the left completely fails to realize that (2+ / 0-)

the effective federal income tax on the rich was HIGHER during the Clinton years than it was before the Reagan tax cuts.  At the end of the Clinton tax years, and before the Bush tax cuts took effect, it hovered at slightly above 24% on the top 1%.  That was HIGHER than the effective federal income tax rate during those "70% top marginal rate" years.  In other words, the rich paid MORE in federal income taxes under Clinton than they did before the Reagan tax cuts.

But, the next time somebody advocates "taxing the rich," we'll see a bunch of posters advocating for the "good old days of 70% top marginal rates."

Top marginal rates are only PART of the equation when you are talking about how much people pay in federal income taxes.

Again, effective federal income tax rates are in the SECOND chart on the page  here.

• ##### Thx for the info coffeetalk(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

Important nuance to bring to the debate.

You couldn't load a pistol with dormitive virtue and shoot it into a breakfast-roll - CS Pierce

[ Parent ]

• ##### Another thing people forget(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

is that prior to the Reagan tax rearrangement, interest on consumer debt was deductible. And, IIRC, you could offset capital losses against earned income as well as capital gains.

Our tendency to focus on top bracket rates is akin to the Right's tendency to focus on jury awards in product-liability cases. In neither case does the bandied-about amount bear any resemblance to what actually gets paid.

Facts are sweet, but some people are factose intolerant

[ Parent ]

• ##### In other news: Water is wet.(15+ / 0-)

Tea Partiers are ignorant on just about any topic you want to mention with the possible exception of gun cleaning.

~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

• ##### One thing that disturbs me.(6+ / 0-)

Where you say average you probably intend "mean", since median is also an average...or "measure of central tendency".

• ##### "average" is commonly understood to mean "mean"(4+ / 0-)

Even EXCEL uses the function "AVERAGE" to compute the mean.  So, unless it is clarified differently, when "average" is used, one usually assumes that it means "mean."

A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

[ Parent ]

• ##### As someone who sometimes teaches...(5+ / 0-)

...college level statistics, I do not make that assumption...nor allow my students to get away with such imprecision.

• ##### True at the college level,(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

but surely you recognize how the concepts are taught in the K-12 levels.

In other words, I agree with your understanding of the concepts, but I am also not about to criticize a person who uses "average" to mean "mean" because that's how most people were taught.

A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

[ Parent ]

• ##### It bothered me more...(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
kyril, bushondrugs

...that the following was included:

just as an aside, I wonder how many could explain the difference between average and median, and then give a mathematical example of how the two numbers could be different?

• ##### Yes, in that instance, "mean" should have been(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
rserven, Pinecone, kyril

used, especially since that statement was part of questioning the ignorance of others in the area of mathematics.

A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

[ Parent ]

• ##### See below. :-) n/t(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
rserven, kyril
• ##### Forgive me for using Barlett's language ;-)(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, rserven, Dar Nirron, kyril

But as I indicated elsewhere, my personal preference is "mean" and "median" (we won't worry about "mode" here, unless we are talking pie (a la mode)).  Having had to take stats in college, grad school, med school, and grad school (again), I appreciate the difference.  And that's why I also wondered whether the typical teabagger knew enough about numbers and stats to explain how measure of central tendency could vary, depending on which one you were referencing.

• ##### Yes ... "average" was Bartlett's word(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
wonderful world

I like "mean" and "median" much better myself...

• ##### Statistics should be taught to freshmen in (0+ / 0-)

high school, precisely for this reason.

Push back algebra and geometry--make statistics the required math course for high school freshmen. (I know, I know, you need algebra to do statistics--so teach algebra in the CONTEXT of statistics, so that when the whiny 14-year-olds ask, "When will I ever USE this?" you will have an answer!)

To say that my fate is not tied to your fate is like saying, "Your end of the boat is sinking."--Hugh Downs

[ Parent ]

• ##### As an algebraist...(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
kyril

...I have to disagree.

Push back algebra

• ##### Just push it back a year--not push it OUT. n/t(0+ / 0-)

To say that my fate is not tied to your fate is like saying, "Your end of the boat is sinking."--Hugh Downs

[ Parent ]

• ##### Algebra is where the beauty of mathematics...(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
kyril

...resides.  I do not believe delaying it would be beneficial.

• ##### People hear what they want to hear(16+ / 0-)

Obviously for the tea bagger crew, that's Fox...and they will simply never have a story that actually explains what Bartlett is saying.

Even the mainstream media fouls all this up.

When the bill passed, my mother called and was worried that she'd be paying more tax on her investment income.  She had heard this on NBC News.

I do her taxes.  I said, "Yes, you'll pay a 3.8% tax on that income.  But first you have to start making \$150,000 more a year."

I had to send her the clip of the reconciliation bill to put her at ease.

NBC had left out that the fact, that the tax on unearned income only affects those with an income over \$200K (singles) and \$250K (couples).

Whoops.

======

"Sick Around the World"

http://pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

Watch it, send it along to all you know.

• ##### Time to hold Fox responsible for the violence(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, oxfdblue, Kristina40

The people need to formulate a class action lawsuit against Fox & Friends (Beck, O'Reilly personally and Fox News Network generally) for aiding and abetting domestic terrorism and violence in our country.

THE TEA BAGGERS ARE RIGHT ON ONE COUNT:  WE NEED TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK.....

BACK FROM THE HANDS OF ANGRY, VIOLENT PEOPLE AND THOSE WHOM AID AND ABET.  RIGHT NOW THAT LOOKS LIKE THE GOP AND FOX NEWS.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

[ Parent ]

• ##### What Fox says is sometimes true for the anchors(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
bwren, Pinecone, wonderful world

but rarely true for their audience.

What we really have here, is the anchors, reporters, editorial and executive staff getting the viewers all fired up about issues that don't affect them but affect the people who give them their talking points.

"hey, Mr. \$50k/yr, go out and scream that my \$1.5m/yr is off limits to DC"

Schmucks.

"The Universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it." Marcus Aurelius

[ Parent ]

• ##### They send contradictory messages(7+ / 0-)

and don't even see the contradiction. The whole Tea thing is supposed to be taxed enough already but you also hear them spew the line about 50% of people not paying taxes. I've heard baggers insist that people with "no skin in the game" (not sure where that came from but an awful lot of them use the phrase) just want handouts because everyone else pays for it.....well you can't have it both ways. If 50% of people don't pay taxes how can a majority be taxed too much. They seriously want to increase taxes on the poor (themselves) while giving the rich another tax cut....staggeringly stupid.

These people just don't think anything through and I'm beginning to believe they are simply unreachable.

• ##### They lie! They know exactly what they're doing(5+ / 0-)

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

[ Parent ]

• ##### it's the "other people"(17+ / 0-)

who don't pay taxes.  And it's the "other people" who get all the benefits.

Now let me pick up my disability check and make sure grandma got her drugs paid for by Medicare.

[ Parent ]

• ##### They claim "liberals/Democrats don't pay taxes"(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
demnomore, Matt Z, Pinecone, Siri

The comment sections at the Post and other papers are full of this statement. I usually respond by asking them why, if this is true, I have to send checks to the IRS every year. If those aren't taxes, what the heck are they?

"No, it's all right," said the prospective diner. "The slugs have formed a defensive ring." -- Moving Pictures. Terry Pratchett.

[ Parent ]

• ##### They're talking about the(0+ / 0-)

"lucky duckies," that is to say the working poor who don't make enough to have taxable income (in other words, after applying deductions and exemptions (the same ones everybody gets to take), there's nothing left).

Facts are sweet, but some people are factose intolerant

[ Parent ]

• ##### Palin just destroyed Tbags Platform!(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

When the Chillbilly Quitter said it's "one big teaparty", she just destroyed the one credible platform of the teaparty movement:  Fiscal Conservatism.

Here's how:  She's pimping (and looked like one in her leather tit jacket) for McCain.

McCain is known to everyone as "Mr. Deregulator" and "Mr. National Debt" because he voted and supported the dereg of Wall Street (with his buddy Phil Gram) and voted to accrue THE LARGEST NATIONAL DEBT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.

How's that meme workin' for you now, wink wink?

By Palin suggesting that McCain was part of the Tbag movement, she just decimated the movement's credibility.

Linking McCain and his personal involvement in the accrual of the largest debt ever in our history - coupled with - his aiding and abetting Wall Street over the years as Mr. DeRegulator, I believe she just accomplished two major things  -

1. She's trivialized the TeaParty Movement into one single platform now:  RACISM
1.  She's outed McCain's unceasing liberalism toward the banks and Wall street....and his personal responsibility for the accrual of our national debt.

TeaParty will now be known as being aligned with white supremacy and racism.

Thanks to Sarah they've just lost their only shred of credibility and that was "against debt"...the only other legitimate thing they stood for.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### You Give Her Too Much Credit. She Was Being(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

tossed overboard until Rushbo forgave her for endorsing McCain.

The T-baggers have been outed by the http://www.quinnipiac.edu/... - 74% are angry R-voters longing for 'real conservatives' instead of 'RINOs like McCain.'

-8.38, -5.54

[ Parent ]

• ##### Tea Party Movement: Movement of Racism & Hatred(4+ / 0-)

GOP:  Today's purveyors of HATE

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### I know congressmen can't be sued while doing(4+ / 0-)

business; however, I do believe that according to the Patriot Act, they can be investigated (and perhaps sued) for endangering the public.

I believe that these congressmen are now "dangerous to themselves and others" and at the very least can be Baker Acted.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### Let's face it: Tbags counter-intuitive idiots(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, wonderful world, Siri

who are on the government dole while protesting that which they themselves receive.

The fact is that that they are greedy bastards who don't want anyone else to get what they get.

End of story.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### And most of them don't even pay taxes!(4+ / 0-)

Look around the movement closely today.  Do you see any blacks, hispanics, or young intelligent women?

No way!

The only folks you'll see are obese, caucasion, haters whose only axe to grind is that they're afraid that if someone else receives the benefits they receive, the system will go broke and they "won't get theirs".

This means that this movement has zero credibility whatsoever.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### Take a careful look around today and photos(7+ / 0-)

if you are in Nevada.  People are taking digital photos and turning them over to law enforcement (local, FBI, and DHS).  These morons who are acting violently are pegging themselves and will be watched if not put on a terror watch list.  But that's the caliber of the individual involved here....couldn't think themselves out of a paper bag with one way signs on it.

Take photos, folks.....tons of photos.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### What We Need is a Comparison Survey(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, wonderful world

of the same questions asked to likely midterm election voters.

And we need it damned soon.

We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

• ##### Ignorant because they don't pay any taxes(9+ / 0-)

Most of these puppets are on the government dole via social security & medicare and/or SSI.  Otherwise, what would they be doing out and about on a work day?  Do the math.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### Yes, that's the interesting thing(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, wonderful world

Where do these folks find the time on work days to go all the way to DC to protest? They obviously don't have jobs, which presumably means they are living off the government.

The same socialist government they claim they hate.

• ##### Like Mr. Millam Profiled in the WaPo(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

Let go from his factory job at Kraft, lives on his wife's salary, daughter just joining the military because they can't afford college, but, By God, the government mustn't guarantee his or her health care outside that service.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

"No, it's all right," said the prospective diner. "The slugs have formed a defensive ring." -- Moving Pictures. Terry Pratchett.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Publish your photos from these rallies!(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

Anyone attending today in Nevada needs to take photos and publish them.

If the mainstream media isn't telling us the truth about what's really going on at these hate rallies, then we will have to do their job for them.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### And bring a cam corder if possible, It would(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

be good to record the racist slurs.

• ##### TeaParty pledge to discontinue their social sec.?(7+ / 0-)

I think that every Tbagger who is on the government dole needs to take a pledge to no longer take their social security checks or Medicare and pay for private insurance.

Otherwise, these folks are lying shills.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### We need to draft a flyer(0+ / 0-)

and make it available on line to every Dem/liberal/progressive

basically the flyer would ask Tea baggers partiers (gotta be nice and "respectful" on the flier) to take the pledge to reounce their solcialist goverment social security checks, medicare, and all this "socialistic."

They pledge to no longer take government run socialist public transportation in DC when they come in for their events, or any where else in the country.  They pledge to stop driving on all street, highways and interstates because they are all socialist.  They pledge to disconnect from the city and town's sewer and water supply because they are socialist(ic).

They pledge to never call or use the fire department and police department, especially if someone they love has a heart attack or their house is in danger of burning to the ground.

hell this flier could become several pages long . . .

My senator, Scott Brown, is running against non-candidate Rachel Maddow, because his best friend, Harvey, told him to.

[ Parent ]

• ##### oh and we hand this flyer out to all Tea baggers(0+ / 0-)

we see

My senator, Scott Brown, is running against non-candidate Rachel Maddow, because his best friend, Harvey, told him to.

[ Parent ]

• ##### one of those exists(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Clytemnestra, Matt Z

I got it online somewhere.  the title is the Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge.  Nicely covers all this stuff in two printed pages.  Anyone remember where that came from? (probably here, somewhere!)

"I will sing you a song no one sang to me...you can be anybody that you want to be

[ Parent ]

• ##### Good .. can we print it out and do(0+ / 0-)

"Operation Dumbo Drop" to Searchlight, NV and do a flier drop for the teabaggers woodstock to educate the natives, like our government sometimes does.

My senator, Scott Brown, is running against non-candidate Rachel Maddow, because his best friend, Harvey, told him to.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Right here, (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
two moms in Az

And from an e-mail, but who knows who sent it..

"Teabagger Socialist-Free" Diary

• ##### thanks Losty!(0+ / 0-)

thats the one I was thinking of!

"I will sing you a song no one sang to me...you can be anybody that you want to be

[ Parent ]

• ##### TParty now associated with hatred(5+ / 0-)

and sane americans are distancing themselves from any of it.

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### Don't forget to sign Discovery petition(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
aliasalias, Pinecone, wonderful world

sorry to be OT but these petitions are growing rapidly.

Don't permit the Wasilla Chillbilly to pollute the minds of our children!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/...

3,000 and growing fast!

"If by a Liberal, they mean someone who cares about the welfare of the people, then I am proud to say I'm a Liberal". Ted Kennedy

• ##### too late - done deal on TLC(5+ / 0-)

It is a perfect fit, really. They already have that Breedin' Fundie Freakshow.

News Coverage

NO FEAR. EVER.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Ugh(0+ / 0-)

I blocked that fundie freak show not just to make a statement, but also because I couldn't stand to flip past it and see that idiot woman's face.

Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

[ Parent ]

• ##### racists(4+ / 0-)

On questions of true self interest (like taxes), teabaggers are

I missed the alternative "just a bunch of racists".

• ##### This needs to be recced up! (3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, wonderful world, Blueslide
• ##### But The Kool Aid Is So Inviting(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

The harm done by right wing talkers, pundits and writers is incalculable but is directly responsible for a segment of our society (teabaggers included) believing that their own bizarre fantasies are reality. Unless they truly believe that taxes should be zero which might be the case.

I live in New York City and don't just pay taxes through the nose but am also taxed indirectly through hikes in utility bills, transportation costs and food prices at the supermarket. Although keeping more of my take home pay might be nice, I would prefer that the services I pay for were not being cut in exchange for the higher price I'm asked to pay. These teabagging idiots have had their anger redirected by unscrupulous hucksters for far too long and are unable to see the big picture. The Becks, Limbaughs, Levins, O'Reillys of the world have successfully shifted the blame from the corporate entities that are at fault to the very notion of a government supplying services.

And as the song and dance begins/The children play at home with needles/Needles and pins

• ##### Their side needs to lay out the facts to them(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

Anything coming from Democrats is suspect.

"It strikes me as gruesome and comical that in our culture we have an expectation that a man can always solve his problems" - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

• ##### Yeah if only Jeff Davis had gotten the word out(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

before Fort Sumter was sacked.

"Love thy neighbor" is easy. It's next-door neighbors that are a challenge. :)

[ Parent ]

• ##### Being against taxes is easy(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Hirodog, Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

..it's like being against head lice. The problem is these people are so stupid, if you don't agree with them then you MUST be for higher taxes. AS if there is no other possible position to have.

I have tried explaining my thoughts to some of these folks. They just glaze over and mutter taxes suck. The baggers are simply followers and now they are falling into the mob mentality of violence, justifying it all the while with their ignorant belief set.

I have lost patience with these "morans". Trying to reason with them is simply not possible in most cases.

By the way, when will we discard this notion that lowering taxes inherently improves the economy? George W did it (2nd biggest cut pkge ever), Obama is still doing it, and the economy is sluggish at best. Why don't we look at our trade policy for answers to economic growth?

-7.5 -7.28, Sheesh, you call me a socialist like that's a bad thing.

• ##### How about being against services?(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone

That's the problem with libertarian thinking.  They won't acknowledge that one way or the other you'll pay for services.  You can pay private companies yes but then you will be preyed upon.  What's to limit private companies in their fees?  Competition?  That just doesn't work because there is way too much collusion - either implicit or explicit.

In short, economic libertarian doctrine is bullshit.

You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.

[ Parent ]

• ##### My Brother(11+ / 0-)

My brother is a card carrying teabagger.  A college graduate who chose to work in the building trades, but perceives himself as an intellectual.  He is against the Federal Government and wastefull spending, expecially since he did not pay any federal taxes and had his wages garnished to pay for all the back taxes.  He immediately quit his job and only works for cash, so he can show no income.  His ability to work is severely limited because he needs a back operation.  So he lives with two vets on government disability and opposes federal intervention in his life.

He opposed HCR even though he could have gotten his back operated on and could have health insurance.

The reality is that he does not want to work and does not want to pay his tax bills because it would be a drain on his income and he would have to work full time.  BTW, he did take unemployment until it expired.  That was managed by the state, not the feds.  He also pays no state taxes, except sales tax.

At my fathers funeral, he commended my fathers brave service in WWII and condemned the service of those in Iraq.  My father was the Captain of a crain ship in Long Beach harbor and at the time my son was deployed in Mosul, Iraq.  He himself dodged the draft.  My son's base was attacked over 500 times by mortar fire, had the largest truck bomb, had the mess hall tent exploded and lost and maimed many of those he served with.  To this day he says that my son and I are lying because there was no conflict in Mosul.

• ##### truly bizarre ....(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
wonderful world

All of our families tend to have one of these...

• ##### "No conflict in Mosul..."(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z, Pinecone, wonderful world

The good news is that the DNA you share with your brother (and his interesting views on politics and reality) clearly produces good results too...in yourself.

"Love thy neighbor" is easy. It's next-door neighbors that are a challenge. :)

[ Parent ]

• ##### I'm just speechless...(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
ebohlman, Matt Z
• ##### In the mode of concensus building(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
aliasalias, Pinecone

We can all agree that corruption and waste should be weeded out of government.

We can agree that rich folks shouldn't be allowed giant loopholes in the Caymen Islands or by hiding money in Swiss bank accounts.

We can agree that taxes should be fair.

We could agree to simplify regulations on small business.

And we could agree that since our founding fathers wrote the anti-tax crowds favorite document, the constitution on hemp paper, that we should legalize hemp.

• ##### When you systematically defund education(5+ / 0-)
for several generations, you get an electorate who will parrot whatever they are told, and push whatever button they are told to push in their cubicles.

There is a great line in the American President "in the absence of true leadership, people will listen to anyone who steps up to the mike".

This country has been devoid of true leadership for a long time, and so the teapartiers have listened to the likes of Glenn Beck & Rush Limbaugh.

They are too ignorant and uneducated to think for themselves, and cannot recognize that Obama is the first true leader that has come forward in at least a generation.

The last may have been Reagan, and he led the country further to the right, and down the defunding education path...

To have a leader from the people, instead of the corporatocracy, is a huge change, and many cannot recognize it nor appreciate it.

A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives ~ Jackie Robinson's epitaph

• ##### Thanks for finding this and bringing it here.(0+ / 0-)

There is lots of good information to use against the big-government meme.

Not that facts ever mattered to the teabaggers but some people outside the movement will respond to objective reality.

Unapologetically pro-citizen. Not anti-corporation just very pro-citizen.

• ##### Speaking of Ignorant,(12+ / 0-)

This story from Boston.com caught my eye.

Massachusetts man arrested for heckling lawmakers in House gallery

WASHINGTON -- William Gunn is angry about big government, the bailouts, and especially the big health care package President Obama signed earlier this week -- so much so, that the Western Massachusetts resident came all the way to Washington, DC and got himself arrested Sunday night after heckling lawmakers in the House gallery

And the kicker;

Gunn, by the way, works for the town of Palmer and administers federal grants for a living.

• ##### Dumb and dumber .... n/t(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Dar Nirron
• ##### So typical.(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Cali Techie, Matt Z, Dar Nirron

I know people who depend on grants for various community things that keep local property taxes low. Almost without exception, they hate Democrats because Democrats are all about tax and spend, dontchaknow? Democrats want to take your money and your freedom and enslave you to the state. The rhetoric is all backed up by CT that is promoted by the Limbaughs, Becks, Hannitys, and Malkins. And they are directing the congressional leaders of the Republican party.

Paul Krugman nailed it in concluding his op-ed yesterday:

In the short run, Republican extremism may be good for Democrats, to the extent that it prompts a voter backlash. But in the long run, it’s a very bad thing for America. We need to have two reasonable, rational parties in this country. And right now we don’t.

You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake. Jeannette Rankin

[ Parent ]

• ##### I got the "Cowboy Bud" email last night. (0+ / 0-)

Some of you may have seen this...it's been around for years....yuppie in BMW and Gucci shoes shows up at a cattle ranch, bets Cowboy Bud a calf that he can tell exactly how much cattle CB owns...pulls out GPS, Blackberry, contacts computers all over the world, satellite shots, etc. etc. (the technology gets more elaborate each year.) Gives exact number of cattle, puts the calf he has just won in trunk of BMW.

Cowboy Bud bets he can tell yuppie's line of work. "U.S. Congressman!"

Astonishment! "You're right! How'd you guess?"

And the Real American Everyman, Cowboy Bud, says:

"No guessing
required. You showed up
here even though nobody called you; you
want to get paid for an answer I
You used millions of dollars worth of
equipment trying to show me how much smarter
than me you are; and you don't know a thing
about how working people make a living -
or about cows, for that matter.  This
is a herd of sheep.
...

Now give
me back my
dog."

Yes, this is how Americans are being taught to regard their congressional representatives and others who work in government...who actually make a fraction of what their counterparts in the private sector make, rarely have the latest or best equipment, are expected to be on the job 24 hours a day, and in the case of Congressmen, sometimes have to sleep on cots in their Congressional offices because they can't afford a house or apartment in DC.

• ##### Rush's audiences never had capital gains.(7+ / 0-)

They don't have trusts, dividends, accountants, big inheritances.

So when he says that the rich are getting killed out there, they believe it.  He knows better; they don't.  It's incredible.

• ##### Also, it's all relative. (0+ / 0-)

When you can't afford the \$60 million yacht; when you can't buy a third vacation home; when you are chided for flying a private jet instead of taking first class....you're poor.

Saw a TV show a while back on mega-yachts....\$100 million plus, some of them very much plus.  Once shot was of a sun-tanned owner in white shorts who said, quite jauntily, "Well, you've got to spend your money on something!"

• ##### Teabaggers' Tax Concerns Aren't the Real Issue(7+ / 0-)

It's how those tax dollars are perceived by them to be used.

ACORN, "lazy people unwilling to work", degenerate liberal causes, abortions, convicts wanting to prove their innocence with DNA testing, medical care for the poor, etc., etc. are a waste of their tax dollars.

C Street, corporate welfare, massive fraud by military contractors, big oil subsidies, prisons warehousing large numbers of innocent people wrongfully convicted, pharmaceutical industry subsidies, etc., etc. are OK.

There's a racial element to their objections which a blind man can clearly see.
Q. Who are most of the welfare recipients in this country?
A.  White Children.
(They will call you a liar.  They "know" the "correct" answer is black folks.)

• ##### Thanks, enlightening. Question.(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Clytemnestra, bushondrugs

I'd been thinking the tax rate was much higher.

I don't understand this part:

According to calculations  by the Joint Committee on Taxation, a congressional committee, tax filers with adjusted gross incomes between \$40,000 and \$50,000 have an average federal income tax burden of just 1.7%. Those with adjusted gross incomes between \$50,000 and \$75,000 have an average burden of 4.2%.

I calculated the AGI from my tax schedule roughly, and for AGI from \$41K to \$49K the tax rate is 0.138 or 13.8% (not 1.7% which is obviously a mistake unless I'm misunderstanding something). Similarly from \$51K to \$74 K the tax rate is 16.4%.

• ##### Lots of people in that bracket get tax credits.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
annominous

AGIs between \$40,000 and \$50,000 include lots of people who are parents who get tax credits for childcare expenses, etc.

Still, the 1.7% seems low, and I wish I could find the first-hand reference it came from.

A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

[ Parent ]

• ##### This is the document Barlett referred to(0+ / 0-)

Joint Committee on Taxation

I think if you go to the very end of it, there are a series of tables that provide some back-up to the assertion.  I didn't do all the math, but there are some significant credits and deductions in the lower income ranges.  I think that is why the question of "what do you mean by income of \$50,000?" is legit.  Is that w-2? Is that Gross?  Is that Taxable (i.e., after all deductions addressed and credits taken)

• ##### I calculated AGI by(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, bushondrugs

Base earned income + \$3650 + \$5700 (standard deductions) by the tax table rate, but I didn't do any calculations for married filing jointly (if they file jointly they already get a big break, see the tax tables). I calculated only for filing single (lazy Saturday...).

If it is true that \$40K-\$50K people get that big of a break with tax credits, then people making \$20K-\$30K probably qualify for tax breaks too.

If this is true, the tax structure seem regressive against single people.

• ##### Taxes favor people with kids,(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, annominous

but then again, kids are expensive and don't usually add income to the family.

A Wall Street "bonus" should not be more than what my house is currently worth.

[ Parent ]

• ##### On(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, RustyCannon

the one hand this is surprising, but on the other, this is nothing new.  The GOP has been winning elections since 1980 lying to people convincing them that the dems rob them of their money through high federal taxes.

I take political action every day. I teach.

• ##### Even and old fart like me(6+ / 0-)

pays a what I feel is a reasonable amount in federal taxes.  It's just me and the wife and no dependents. I just completed my 2009 tax return and on a Gross income just under 100k my tax liability is about 11k or 11% and that's BEFORE we make our IRA contributions.  Once we do that I believe our rate would fall under 10%.

Very reasonable "membership fee" for the club we call the United States of America

• ##### lowest taxed industrial country in the world(4+ / 0-)

That's how ignorant these fucking teabaggers are when it comes to fed. taxes.  State taxes generally aren't that much of an issue.  Property tax can be a big issue though.

You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.

• ##### My choice wasn't in the poll(0+ / 0-)

Tea baggers are stupid, full of sh-- and f-----g  nuts.

(George Carlin liked to point out that Dan Quayle was all three.)

The Democratic Party has thrilled the biology community by creating a whole new class of invertebrates, utterly worthless in office. David Michael Green

• ##### you coulda gone with "Teabaggers Totally Ignorant(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone, RustyCannon

the title (and Bartlett) would have still been accurate.

My senator, Scott Brown, is running against non-candidate Rachel Maddow, because his best friend, Harvey, told him to.

• ##### The bigger problem(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Cali Techie, Pinecone

The bigger problem is that most folks have no clue about "number stuff", none whatsoever, which of course makes any rational discussion impossible.

And... it is not just teabaggers. A short while ago I asked a simple math question in a diary - "how many millions are in a trillion", and less than 60% of Kossacks that answered got the question right! That is pretty bad - and I am guessing would be astoundingly bad if you asked teabaggers.

I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong- Feynman

• ##### Did you account for Brits?(0+ / 0-)

Because they traditionally go million, thousand million, billion, thousand billion, trillion instead of thousand, million, billion, trillion. Their billion is our trillion.

That's changing a bit, but still.

Progressive -> Progress; Conservative -> Con

[ Parent ]

• ##### nazi socialism(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
RAST, Pinecone, bushondrugs

Even more hilarious, they actually think the nazis were socialists because it's in the party name.

They don't even know the difference between socialism and fascism.

Recommended by:
Phil S 33, Pinecone

I think may classify as a teabagger.  Let's see what he says about it.

I honestly think these people will never change their minds.

• ##### New idea for a daily diary series at DKos: "Fun (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

With Teabaggers" wherin people submit one question to a teabagger (don't want to overwhelm them and mess up their flow-thru nature) and report the answer. Understanding the mind of teabaggers (now there's an oxymoron) could be helpful, even if just for laughs...   :-)

"Prexisting" will soon no longer be existing...

• ##### \$250,000!!!(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Cali Techie, Matt Z, Pinecone

Remember back when Obama was campaigning and said only those earning over \$250,000 could expect to see their taxes go up? What happened next?

A bunch of right wingers bleating about how they were taking unpaid vacations so they wouldn't earn over the \$250K magic number and pay 35% in federal income tax. Lesson being, a lot of people don't understand what a marginal tax rate is.

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

• ##### Average and median. Taxes. (3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Loquatrix, Phil S 33, Pinecone

Average....add up all the numbers and then divide by the number of people.

A pays \$1. B pays \$19. C pays \$100.
\$120 divided by three equals an average tax of \$40 (which none of them actually pays.)

Median: Line up all the values and add the two in the middle, then divide by two.

Mime in Oklahoma makes \$500 a year. Writer in Azle, TX, makes \$15,000 a year. Rush Limbaugh makes \$1,000,000 a year. Glenn Beck makes \$2,000,00 a year.

Median income: \$507,500.

Which is why you should look at statistics very, very carefully.

• ##### :-) Nice illustration of the old saying(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Phil S 33

"lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Question though ... for median, do you really add the two in the middle?  I thought if you had 101 data points the median was the 51st (in rank order, up or down)

• ##### It depends. (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

Even numbers, take the two middle numbers. Or so I've read. I'm not claming to be a statistician.

• ##### if there is an even number in the sample(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Pinecone

the median is halfway between the one above 50% and the one below 50%. So for 4, it's between 2 and 3.  For odd numbered samples, there'll be an item in the middle.  For a sample of 3, it's 2; for a sample of 5, it's 3, and so on.

When will we ever learn that PROFIT cannot be a part of the equation when endangering people's lives adds to a company's bottom line?--Earicicle

[ Parent ]

• ##### "Tea baggers" = Fox News/GOP. They lie.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
bustacap

It's not that they are wrong on the facts but that Fox News/GOP/Tea baggers lie about the facts. One only need listen to McConnell, Cantor, Newt, Palin or any of the Fox News/GOP/tea bagger spokes people.

They lie in order to make money and gain power which to Fox News/GOP are the same thing. Political power is a means to make money for GOP and political propaganda to the weak minded is a way for Fox News to make money.

You can't argue facts, logic or science with them as they simply reject reality to cling to their beliefs. Probably no group (older, high school educated, ex-urb whites) is more dependent upon Federal programs such Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment, Agricultural subsidies than the tea baggers but that does not stop them from screaming about "communism" and blacks and Latinos taking over the country.

• ##### They believe what they WANT to believe.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Cali Techie

Facts are irrelevant for them.

Give them a fact to rebut their fantasy and they'll just throw another fantasy at you.  Willful ignorance at its worst.

"Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight." - Albert Schweitzer

• ##### Re: Taxes going down for most....Wonder how many (0+ / 0-)

Teabaggers returned the almost 10% INCREASE in tax refunds this year????

Many are finding surprise in how their refunds are bigger than expected.

• ##### One of the problems is still the deficits(0+ / 0-)

Please don't take me as a republican concern troll. I have seen all too well the republican calls for "fiscal discipline" when they aren't in office, but then spending like a drunken sailor when in office.

The problem is that we spend more than we take in. We have had a huge drop in tax receipts, and unfortunately they are not coming back. States and Federal government have to come to that realization fast and balance their budgets with the new reality.

If they don't then we are just taxing our children and grandchildren to pay for our lives now.

• ##### Pedantic comment about "average":(0+ / 0-)

OK, folks, there are 3 commonly used types of averages, the mean, the median, and the mode.

"Mean" is what most people think about when they hear the word average.  It is calculated by adding up all of the scores in a distribution, and dividing by the number of scores.

"Median" is the score that is in the middle of the distribution, when all of the scores are lined up from least to greatest.  Half of the scores will be more than the median, half will be less.  Like the median of a highway, in which half of the lanes are going north, the other half south.

"Mode" is the score that occurs the most often in the distribution.

An example:  Average ages of a family with two parents and five children (all special needs and adopted, if you want):

Father, 38
Mother, 36
Son, 16
Daughter, 12
Twin daughters, 10 and 10
Son, 4

Mean:  (38 + 36 + 16 + 12 + 10 + 10 + 4)/7 = 18

Median (the one in the middle):  12

Mode (occurs most often):  10

So, the average age of the members of this family is 18, 12, or 10 years, depending on how you figure it.

To say that my fate is not tied to your fate is like saying, "Your end of the boat is sinking."--Hugh Downs

• ##### Teabaggers are totally ignorant(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z

about a lot of things and are too lazy to actually look to see if what they're being told on Faux Nooz is true. The GOP likes it that way.

Teabagger: I'm tired of paying Obama's high taxes!!!

Me: Um your tax burden is actually lower under Obama than it was under Bush.

Teabagger: Don't confuse me with facts! Obama has raised my taxes!!!

This isn't about taxes. It's racism. They know they can't come out and say they don't like him because he's not white, so they hide behind a convenient rationalization even if it's not true.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -6.0 -5.33

• ##### did good(0+ / 0-)

as bad as my math is, i did pretty good with those questions. I guessed \$8,000 for the taxes on \$50,000 income, and 12% for the GDP. the 3rd was easy. i knew taxes went down. but then, i am not a teabagger, and i don't watch faux news and listen to their "entrtainers."

Have A Great Day

• ##### Where the hell is the media?(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z

Isn't this worth a story or two?  Oh, wait, I forgot, "journalism" consists of letting someone from each side make a claim and then treating the claims as if they had equal value.  That flapping sound you hear is Walter Cronkite spinning in his grave.

• ##### actually they usually add all the taxes together(0+ / 0-)

tax protestors have no idea how much their federal taxes are, because they add in state taxes, local taxes, and even include FICA in their calculations.

next month I will have to write some very large checks to pay my taxes and I earn considerably less than \$50,000 a year.  My federal taxes, FICA (and I pay the whole 15% because I am technically self-employed) and state taxes together will be a five figure sum.  Paying taxes is definitely a hardship and I resent the fact that people who make more money than I do pay less in taxes than I do.

But I'm not upset enough about my tax bill to give any credence to the anti-tax ravings of teabaggers.

"Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
--Tom Harkin

• ##### My conclusion:(2+ / 0-)

Bring back the fairness doctrine.

Take away Rupert Murdoch's privileged podium.

When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it's a wonder I can think at all.

• ##### This is so true...(0+ / 0-)

and taxes for the top 5 - 10% are also extremely low, since most of the Reagan and Bush tax cuts went to these people.

"There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end they always fail. Always." -Gandhi

• ##### I keep a spreadsheet...(0+ / 0-)

of all my budgetary "stuff" and the tax percentages for me are very much in line with what Bartlett states in the article. AGI of slightly higher than 50K, single, Fed. tax percentage is 15.27% to be exact, and I'm including federal excise taxes on phones and other utilities, where they exist, as well as tax on gasoline.

• ##### BTW...(0+ / 0-)

that includes FICA and Medicare too.

• ##### One more BTW...(0+ / 0-)

that overall percentage is probably a bit high, since I'm now getting my pay reduced by .75 furlough days each month currently thanks to Gov. Sonny Perdue (heretofore referred to as dumbass) and his wrecking of the Georgia public infrastructure.

• ##### On Red State a guy was gonna pay his taxes late(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Matt Z

That will show them, he wrote.  Everyone should get an extension and the feds won't have any money, he proposed.  Then one of the more rational of them pointed out that if you file an extension you still have to pay what you owe; you just file the complete forms later.

So there was more huffing and puffing.  Some one was going to try to underpay, etc.  These people are so ignorant.  The only silver lining is that maybe they are learning a little tiny bit now they have revealed their ignorance.

"YES WE CAN!." Barack Obama

because I know Republicans in different camps. I know some who are ignorant but can learn. Some who are ignorant and would NEVER try to learn. And some who know better but willfully divert themselves and other from the facts.

Great diary! I heard about the article and forgot to read it. This motivates me again.

Jennifer

"I believe in an America in which we don't just look out for ourselves, that we don't just tell people you're on your own..." President Obama

• ##### But Teabaggers can't even do arithmetic, so ...(0+ / 0-)

Numbers don't mean anything more to than than words do.  Both meaningless to them.

They tortured people to get false confessions to justify invading Iraq.

• ##### you saying 1000 radio stations lie?(0+ / 0-)

as long as the left ignores those radio stations those are facts.

US social and political reality is largely determined by 1000 radio stations blasting coordinated UNCONTESTED repetition all day long.

• ##### I knew actor Craig T. Nelson(0+ / 0-)

was a Conservative but I ASSUMED (ass of me) the issues wouldn't come up on Jay Leno last night -- WRONG!!!

He says no one asked him about the bank bailouts so he thinks he shouldn't pay his taxes. He spouted the "TARP hasn't worked" and "government doesn't do anything right" blah blah blah. I had to turn the channel because it was so maddening. I really do tire of generalizations of TARP -- which has had some good and bad effects and results -- and blaming government as a whole. I really do. There are amazing members at the state and federal level of government who do their damnedest to get work done.

I think Mr. Nelson needs to be reminded that we are a representational Democracy and that we vote for people to make the bail-out types of decisions. We don't get asked because that's not our system. And he also needs to read this article.

Jennifer

"I believe in an America in which we don't just look out for ourselves, that we don't just tell people you're on your own..." President Obama

• ##### Well I see this alot(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
greengemini, jhw22

and just check the box, that some people just do not want to live in a democracy.

The San Francisco Bay Bridge, MADE IN CHINA

[ Parent ]

• ##### Made 8 billion fom Citi bailout(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
jhw22

Enough to pay for high risk insurance pool until exhanges open.

"We did not fear our future -- we shaped it. " President Barack Obama

Now, don't forget how you did it this March, Mr. President

[ Parent ]

• ##### 1000 uncontested radio stations make it so(0+ / 0-)

and fox and the rest of the MSM can go along as long as the limbaughs and hannitys keep getting a free speech free ride and our largest AM radio stations can keep blasting even the bluest communities all day long without a complaint or any threat of being corrected.

and maybe the only way to correct them or challenge the hate and threats and racism, because they have call screeners, is to put it on a sign and wave it in front of the station.

US social and political reality is largely determined by 1000 radio stations blasting coordinated UNCONTESTED repetition all day long.

• ##### Republican leaders are to blame for the mis-(0+ / 0-)

information, put out there on purpose. That's the only way, fear and misinformation, that the Republicans know how to govern and they are fundamentally against government. As we here all know.

I really don't understand how bipartisanship is ever going to work when one of the parties is insane. - John Cole

• ##### Teabaggers Totally Ignorant(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
east bay

Could've stopped right there.  Tells you everything you have to know.

• ##### to say the least(0+ / 0-)

And I am no longer differentiating between republicans and tea baggers.  they are one and the same to me.

The San Francisco Bay Bridge, MADE IN CHINA

[ Parent ]

• ##### two kinds of people support the T-bagger movement(0+ / 0-)
1. Multi-Millioniares who (after years of reckless GOPER tax cuts targeted specifically at them) are likely to see their taxes increase under OBama

2)IDIOTS who think they are in thre same tax bracketas multi-millionaires. (or maybe they are planning on winning the lottery)

• ##### It's all about race.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
ebohlman

To a teabagger, "taxes" means "taking the hard-working white man's money," and "spending" means "giving it to lazy n!ggers."

They don't know a fucking thing about taxes and the federal budget as the poll clearly shows.

• ##### It's useless to even argue(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
greengemini

with these people.  they are ignorant about everything.  I have a neighbor "friend"  who is a Berkeley cop.  Total racist and get this.  He's against big "government".  I told him, "You work for the gov't"  Says he doesn't, says he works for a "small town"   I say if your salary / benefits are paid for by the taxpayers then you work for the government.  Who is right?  I

The San Francisco Bay Bridge, MADE IN CHINA

• ##### I sure like Sam Cooke more than a teabagger(0+ / 0-)

/At least Sam knew that 1 and 1 is 2.

Slow thinkers - keep right

• ##### I see justification for a test before voting(0+ / 0-)

A few simple apolitical questions that no-one could object to, but which would disqualify any conservative who doesn't at least know the truth even as he ignores it.

This isn't about letting people with different ideas from ours have their say; this is about whether or not we let people vote who are completely disconnected from reality.

• ##### Bartlet is the lone Republican who argues(0+ / 0-)

that taxation levels in the US are actually too low, if Americans actually want to face the responsibility of dealing with their entitlement programs in the long run. He proposes the introduction of a VAT along European lines (in "The New American Economy", published last fall, which is actually an excellent read). As any fiscally responsible conservative at this point in history would. But the terms "conservative" and "fiscally responsible" have become mutually exclusive in the United States under the reign of George W. Bush.

John McCain: Life begins at inheritance

• ##### but it's that top 5-10% of Americans(0+ / 0-)

who own all the media in this country, and THEY'RE the ones lying the Teabaggers into protesting.  The morons are being used, and they don't even know it.  We have to show this up for what it is..........astroturfing.

'The great religions﻿ are the ships. The poets are the lifeboats. Every sane person I know has jumped overboard. - Hafiz'

• ##### He forgot to add federal taxes past on to(0+ / 0-)

consumers. Federal payroll withholding taxes direct costs and the cost of compliance increases the price of eavery product/service sold in America by at least 15%. This hidden federal tax is a very regressive tax which adds much more effective tax burden to those that live payday to payday. It's not true that the working poor pay little or no federal taxes because they spend everything they earn on these products/services. They're effictive federal tax rate is at least 15%, if not even higher.

Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull