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UC Berkeley’s student senate voted 16 to 4 on March 18 in favor of divesting from companies that profit from the Israeli occupation.  One week later, in a move that was predicted by Jonathan Kessler of AIPAC at AIPAC’s recent policy conference, the 16-4 vote was vetoed by the student senate president.

Said Kessler of the UC Berkeley pro-divest initiative:

"We’re going to make sure that pro-Israel students take over the student government and reverse the vote. . . .  This is how AIPAC operates in our nation’s capital.  This is how AIPAC must operate on our nation’s campuses."

See Kessler at 3:58 in the video.

UC Berkley students are hopeful the Student Senate will overturn the veto next week.

We’ll see.

Originally posted to catlover9 on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:03 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  If AIPAC (5+ / 0-)

    encourages student leaders at Berkeley to become more politically active and run for office, how exactly is that a bad thing?

    Shouldn't we want more active young people supporting liberal causes like Israel?

    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

    by oldskooldem on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:08:39 AM PDT

    •  LOL (21+ / 0-)

      "Israel" is not a liberal cause. It's not a cause at all. It's a country.

      Ending a 40-year occupation is a liberal cause. And unless you define Israel by its occupation, being against the occupation is not anti-Israel.

      Geology is the study of pressure and time. That's all it takes really, pressure, and time.

      by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:28:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And, unsurprisingly, (17+ / 0-)

        a majority of Democrats oppose settlement building and opposed Israel's invasion of Gaza last year. oldskooldem likes to pretend his positions on this issue are Democratic, but the polls are very clear on this: support for the Israeli occupation and Israeli settlements is largely confined to the Republican right.

        •  I doubt that. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zemblan

          Polling both short- and long-term indicates American support for Israel far more substantial than the republican rightwing.

          CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. March 19-21, 2010. N=1,030 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

          "Do you consider Israel an ally of the United States, friendly but not an ally, unfriendly towards the U.S., or an enemy of the United States?"

          ally 39%, friendly 41%, unfriendly 12%, enemy 5%, unsure 4%

          Ibid.:

          Gallup Poll. Feb. 1-3, 2010. N=1,025 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4.

          "In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?"

          Israel 63%, Palestinians 15%, neither 12%, both 3%, unsure 8%

          So if we start from the baseline that the republican right encompasses about 25% - 30% of Americans, generic support for Israel outperforms that by a statistically significant margin.

          It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

          by MBNYC on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 03:18:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Or, since heathlander was talking about democrats (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            heathlander, simone daud

            A partisan gap in public’s views of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict had been evident since the 1990s, but those differences widened considerably in 2006. Since then, about two-thirds of Republicans – including 68% in the current survey – have said they sympathize more with Israel, compared with slightly less than half of independents (49% currently) and a smaller share of Democrats (43% currently).

            Support for Israel is especially strong among conservative Republicans. More than seven-in-ten (72%) say they sympathize more with the Israelis, while 58% of moderate and liberal Republicans share that view. There also are differences among Democrats: 49% of moderate and conservative Democrats sympathize more with Israel compared with 35% of liberal Democrats.

            Pew Research, December 2009:

            Geology is the study of pressure and time. That's all it takes really, pressure, and time.

            by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 10:51:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Those are pretty meaningless (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, Flyswatterbanjo, simone daud

            questions, though - "support for Israel" means entirely different things to different people. I deliberately didn't refer to "support for Israel", I referred to "support for the Israeli occupation and Israeli settlements".

            For instance, a recent Zogby poll reportedly found that 63% of Democrats agreed with the statement: "Israeli settlements are built on land confiscated from Palestinians and should be torn down and the land returned to Palestinian owners." Conversely 62% of Republicans thought that "The settlements are necessary for the security of Israel and Israel citizens have the right to build on land on the Palestinian West Bank."

            A recent Resmussen survey highlighted a similar divide:

            "Sixty-two percent (62%) of Democrats and a plurality (48%) of voters not affiliated with either party favor an end to the Israeli settlements as part of a deal. Republicans are almost evenly divided on the question. "

            A 2009 poll found similar results:

            "Opposition to settlements is found among majorities of Republicans (65%), Democrats (83%) and independents (74%). However, more Republicans show more sympathy for Israel (50%) than sympathize with both equally (41%), while Democrats overwhelmingly express equal levels of sympathy (55%) as do independents (64%)."

            The clear partisan divide over support for certain Israeli policies was also clear during the Gaza massacre. A Rasmussen poll conducted at the time found that:

            "Americans generally "are closely divided over whether the Jewish state should be taking military action against militants in the Gaza Strip" (44-41%, with 15% undecided), but Democratic voters overwhelmingly oppose the Israeli offensive -- by a 24-point margin (31-55%).  By stark constrast, Republicans, as one would expect (in light of their history of supporting virtually any proposed attack on Arabs and Muslims), overwhelmingly support the Israeli bombing campaign (62-27%)."

            etc. etc. The point is that it's simply incorrect to claim that support for the Israeli occupation, the Israeli assault on Gaza and Israeli settlements is a "liberal" cause. In fact, as the polls clearly show, the more liberal you are, the less likely you are to support Israeli policies. And we shouldn't be surprised by that: torture, land theft, dispossession, massacres, house demolitions and institutionalised racism are policies that fundamentally conflict with basic liberal values, so of course liberals are going to find it more difficult to support them.

            •  I suppose I should have expected (0+ / 0-)

              that you wouldn't know that some pollsters have better reputations than others. Zogby and Rasmussen are considered the worst, because the former uses a discredited model based on self-selected internet panels, while the latter skews heavily partisan.

              A poll from Pew in the field 7-11/09 found the following, data here:

              Q: "In the dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, which side do you sympathize with more: Israel or the Palestinians?"

              Israel 49%, Palestinians 11%, Neither (vol.) 5%, Both 15%, Unsure 20%

              "Over the past few weeks, there has been a significant military conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip. All things considered, who do you think is most responsible for the outbreak of the recent violence?" Open-ended. Up to three responses accepted.

              Hamas 41%, Israel 12%, Both Sides 5%, Other 7%, Unsure 37%

              So while Democrats and I myself personally don't find West Bank settlements acceptable, Israel's attack on Hamas in Gaza finds a plurality of Americans in favor.

              It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

              by MBNYC on Sat Apr 10, 2010 at 07:21:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you have evidence that (0+ / 0-)

                Rasmussen "skews heavily partisan" in a way that would affect the result I cited, you're more than welcome to present it.

                "So while Democrats and I myself personally don't find West Bank settlements acceptable"

                Yeah, that was my point. And polls also show that a substantial minority to a majority of the American population as a whole favour US "pressure" on Israel to cease constructing them. Yay.

                "Israel's attack on Hamas in Gaza finds a plurality of Americans in favor"

                True, but it doesn't break down those results by party (at any rate not in your blockquote), so it's not particularly relevant to my argument.

                •  Oh, whatever. (0+ / 0-)

                  Rasmussen is the pollster you can thank for driving up the cross-poll average for the republicans, which casts material doubt on their accuracy.

                  And if you review the numbers I cite and link and compare them with the national numbers, you'll find that support for the Gaza action exceeds the percentage of Democrats of the whole, ergo your argument is suspect.

                  But then again, I'm actually in this country and know a few things about it.

                  It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

                  by MBNYC on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:05:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Pretty close to a self-refuting claim (0+ / 0-)

                    "I'm actually in this country and know a few things about it."

                    If it were true, you wouldn't need to resort to such idiotic arguments to demonstrate it.

                    "Rasmussen is the pollster you can thank for driving up the cross-poll average for the republicans, which casts material doubt on their accuracy."

                    Ah - so, no actual evidence, then. Thanks.

                    "And if you review the numbers I cite and link and compare them with the national numbers, you'll find that support for the Gaza action exceeds the percentage of Democrats of the whole"

                    Let's review. According to the Pew poll you cited, the percentage of Americans who "approve[d]" of Israel's military attack on Gaza was 40%, as against 33% who disapproved and 27% who didn't know.

                    According to the link you cite in your most recent comment, the percentage of voters of identified as Democrats was around 33%-39%.

                    So in other words, the number of people who approved of the Gaza attack was only slightly above the number of Democrats.

                    All of which is entirely consistent with my argument here, namely that the more liberal you are and the more Democratic you are, the less likely you are to support Israeli policies, while the more conservative and the more Republican you are, the more likely you are to support them. That's what the polls show.

                    And that's a wrap.

    •  israel is a liberal cause? (5+ / 0-)

      "I ain't scared of Al Quaeda, I'm scared of Al-Cracker"....Chris Rock

      by vmm918 on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 12:03:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is this yet another thinly veiled anti-Semitic (9+ / 0-)

    Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

    by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:09:47 AM PDT

  •  RECIPE: Mushrooms Berkeley (6+ / 0-)

    SERVES 4 -6 (change servings and units)

    Change to:  Servings  US  Metric  
    1 2 3 4 5 clear stars

    Write a Review! (optional)
     
    SubmitCancel
    Ingredients
    1 lb fresh mushrooms
    2 medium bell peppers
    1 onion
    1/2 cup butter
    Sauce
    2 tablespoons Dijon mustard
    2 tablespoons Worcestershire sauce
    1/2 cup brown sugar
    3/4 cup mellow red table wine
    seasoning salt
    pepper
    Directions
    1Clean the mushrooms, cut in half unless quite small. Cut bell pepper into approximately 1-inch pieces. Dice the onion.
    2Melt the butter in a large saucepan and sauté the onion until translucent.
    3Prepare the sauce: Mix together mustard, brown sugar and Worcestershire cause until you have a smooth paste. Whisk in the wine, season with lots of freshly ground pepper and seasoned salt to taste.
    4When the onion is ready, add the mushrooms and peppers and sauté 5-10 minutes, stirring often. As the mushrooms begin to brown and reduce in size, add the wine sauce.
    5Simmer the mixture over medium heat for about 45 minutes or until the sauce is much reduced and thickened.
    6See the quote above

    http://www.recipezaar.com/...

  •  Dude (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Treg, blueyedace2, fizziks, jethrock, aoeu

    Again? Seriously?
    Don't you have anything interesting to talk about!

    I am the typo queen. Sorry in advance.

    by sadpanda on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:16:39 AM PDT

  •  catlover9's Jew-bashing has been well-documented (8+ / 0-)

    Video replete with selective editing, a la O'Keefe

  •  Let me guess. (18+ / 0-)

    This stupid non-diary is going to get 200 or so comments, 98% of which are pointless bickering over nothing. Meanwhile, real people are suffering from a real blockade and a real occupation.

    But, hey, it's much more interesting to fight about this silliness.

  •  i missed the anti-semetic part fo this diary.. (6+ / 0-)

    please help me see.

  •  Ummm... (7+ / 0-)

    We’re going to make sure that pro-Israel students take over the student government and reverse the vote

    That sounds an awful lot like democracy to me.

    If AIPAC can turn out its votes on Berkeley's campus, and a majority of Berkeley's students agree with them, then they have every right to "take over the student government" - as does any party whose candidates get the most votes.

    Something tells me that AIPAC isn't going to be as popular on Berkeley's campus as it might be in other places, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to try to "take over the student government" by getting their people voted into it.

    Call Congress and demand 2 Senators, 1 VOTING Rep, and full home rule for DC citizens. Anything less is un-American.

    by mistersite on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:31:47 AM PDT

  •  Damn! I came here looking for a good pie recipe! (8+ / 0-)

    And all I got was a contrived zionist plot...

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

    by Boisepoet on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:45:30 AM PDT

  •  Umm... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fizziks, jethrock, thebluecrayon

    The lesson of that history is that you must not despair, that if you are right, and you persist, things will change. -Howard Zinn

    by blueyedace2 on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:59:57 AM PDT

  •  This diarist reminds me of "jeihesser" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kalmoth, blueyedace2, fizziks

    a user that used to write the same type of diaries... posing as Progressive while spreading Right-Wing Talking points before they got banned.

    I really wonder if catlover9 is the same person.

    Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

    by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 12:11:39 PM PDT

  •  aipac sounds desperate. Do NOT take them (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hannibal, fizziks, Basho

    so seriously. of course, they should be challenged and confronted just like any other organization that promotes war and occupation.

    The student elections @ UC Berkeley have just ended... and while the results will not be known until Tuesday... my hunch is that AIPAC did not "take over".

    Next Wednesday night, the Student Council will likely over-ride the veto of the divestment resolution. yet another defeat for aipac.

    Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

    by Tom J on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 12:32:08 PM PDT

  •  Mechanism (5+ / 0-)

    How can they "take it over"?

    Unless you can absolutely prove how it can be done, this is technically a conspiracy theory.

    You see dear fool, just because somebody says something hearsay, doesn't make it a fact.

  •  You know what I love? Sports. (7+ / 0-)

    Here's a video of Omri Casspi, an Israeli who plays for the Sacremento Kings.

    It combines your two favorite things: sports and Jews!

    "I know this defies the law of gravity, but you see, I never studied law." -Bugs Bunny

    by KroneckerD on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 12:40:29 PM PDT

  •  I still have some leftover pareve tortillas (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueyedace2, canadian gal

    For those of you, who like myself, can't stand matzoh (must be the Hebrew word for cardboard).

    "Hope will spring eternal, when I've got you on your knees" - Gomez

    by jhecht on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 12:53:09 PM PDT

  •  i've just examined all of catlover's diaries; ex- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eiron

    cellent snark. Use of the word "shylock" in one to describe Wall Streeters (for shame, Cat). But ZERO history of anti-Israel, let alone anti-semitic diaries. Just a lefty snarkily trying to get through to people here at an increasingly right-wing Dem site, from what I can see.

    There sure is a nice little group who get out and kill anything that criticizes Isreal here, though, isn't there? Isn't THAT the kind of cliquish thing that M. Blades have been trying to put a stop to?

    It really is okay to be angry at Israel and anti-Zionist. My socialist Jewish uncle Jack who grew up in the Workmens' Circle, my biggest political influence, certainly was.

    Let's let the pols do the selling out, you and I keep fighting for what's right.

    by Matthew Detroit on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 01:17:50 PM PDT

    •  Listen. I am no fan of AIPAC (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueyedace2, fizziks, Mas Gaviota

      most of my Jewish friends here in New York aren't either and want Israel and AIPAC to start seriously recognizing the human rights violations that Israel is responsible for.

      Just because most of us here were against the Iraq war... didn't mean we were Anti-American.  

      This is not just about Israel/Palestine or AIPAC.

      I don't know what you looked at... but catlover9's history is one of spreading right-wing talking points while claiming  they are a Communist, Socialist, Progressive. And yes much of that has been racist.

      It's Glenn Beck's stereotype of Democrats.

      catlover9 has fooled quite a few people here. Don't get sucked in.

      Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

      by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 01:29:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  jethrock, you can LOOK AT his diaries and de- (0+ / 0-)

        cide for yourself. So can everyone. You do it by clicking on his name.

        Let's let the pols do the selling out, you and I keep fighting for what's right.

        by Matthew Detroit on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 01:33:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh gee. I didn't know that. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aoeu

          Maybe you can look upthread where I already linked to some of catlover9's diatribes.

          Maybe you should LOOK AT his/her hidden comments.

          Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

          by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 01:36:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  pretend I'm not a PhD and link me to the of- (0+ / 0-)

            fending diaries and posts, please. Because all I see is the one snarky diary on the Jewish roots of Karl Marx (a person I happen to admire, having just finished Francis Wheen's celebrated A Life, and against whom I do not hold responsibility for Stalin). Otherwise, among catlover's diaries I see dedicated snark on a wide variety of topics, and a writerly sensibility that makes most diarists and posters here look. . . decidedly unsubtle. Sometimes, I would aver, the diarist himself doesn't really know what political line he is plying,  evidence--perhaps--of a political sensibility as yet not fully formed.  

            Again, maybe there is evidence I am overlooking. So far you have not "adduced" it. All best.  

            Let's let the pols do the selling out, you and I keep fighting for what's right.

            by Matthew Detroit on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 02:42:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK Mr. Not a PhD (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fizziks, Mas Gaviota

              The diary you consider "snarky" Meteor Blades issued a warning to the diarist for racism.

              Since we are not going to get in PhD level reading... I suggest you start to learn about Jewish Bolshevism here.

              Which will direct further reading at the bottom of the page.

              Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

              by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 02:52:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  way ahead of you on that; but (0+ / 0-)

                you don't have any other diaries or posts to show me, do you? I think that, at very least, the jury is out.

                P.S. As a guy from a family full of Jews and Gentiles who IS a socialist, I am impervious to that Jewish Bolshi crap! :) In fact, Jews CAN be proud!!!

                Let's let the pols do the selling out, you and I keep fighting for what's right.

                by Matthew Detroit on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 03:06:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't get it. This numbskull you are (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fizziks, Mas Gaviota

                  defending is pushing the Glenn Beck stereotype of Democrats.

                  Today, I Was Called a N***** Lover.

                  I thought a minute; it seemed much longer, then I calmly responded.

                  “Go watch your fucking Glen Beck, you goddamn Republican.  And oh, by the way, that 'socialist’ Obama is the only thing standing between you and the fucking street, you fuckwad blue collar shithead.”

                  I replied.  “Oh, you gonna shoot me, you fucking stupid redneck?”

                  This one isn't racist... it's just idiotic: Dylan Ratigan Rocks!  Crushes Woolsey.

                  I'll let the rest speak for themselves.

                  The fact that you want to defend this speaks volumes. Actually I could write one word on piece of toilet paper that would sum it up nicely.

                  And that word isn't intelligent.

                  Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

                  by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 03:25:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  jethrock: you have wandered far, far from our to- (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie

                    pic, which is anti-semitism. It's okay, it's Friday night, and I, personally, am tossing down my second glass of wine and enjoying my daughter and wife, listening to what happened to them today, letting waves of love and fellow-feeling twd them and all of humanity wash over me.

                    An idiotic post does not constitute anti-Semitism (trust me if you cannot figure that out!). And Democrats often ARE idiots! It's really true. In fact, anyone who takes OFFENSE at anyone else insulting Democrats needs to take a LONG step back. We are not talking Green Bay

                    Sit back, take a deep breath. Brian Emo was B+ inspired in the 1980s. He is most definitely NOT today. Get a new sig line, and good luck.

                    Let's let the pols do the selling out, you and I keep fighting for what's right.

                    by Matthew Detroit on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 03:50:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's my point Matt, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      fizziks

                      May I call you Matt?

                      This is not just about Anti-Semitism. catlover9 is all over the place and quite frankly has contradicted himself plenty of times. He doesn't believe his own BS.  

                      He has been posting a diary a day since signing up in late March. Most of which have received severe Troll ratings.

                      You my friend have been sold. He's got you hook line and sinker. You have been defending a Troll.

                      p.s. That Brian Eno Tag line was from 1974. When Eno was doing more Glam. Which I proudly listen to even though Eno was way ahead of my time.

                      p.s.s. Have a good night

                      Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

                      by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 04:09:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  hmmm what happened to the Bay Packers. . . I (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie, jethrock

                        know I had them here on me someplace. Okay, I think you sort of win. But to tell you the truth, I think I LIKE this kind of artfully satirical trollery/drollery. Explain to me why pulling everyone's leg in this way isn't sort of neat?

                        Yes, yes. My brother went to Russia and failed to adopt a daughter, but came back with ALL of Eno on one (really kinda beautiful) bootleg CD. I'm hoping that turns up here eventually, too, so I can finish my BEST OF (it's kind of a mess in here).

                        It's more A- than B+, I will admit. I've just always been wierdly jealous of Brian Eno ever since my old girlfriend's father met him somewhere and came back with a set of those playing cards he used to throw to write his music.

                        Let's let the pols do the selling out, you and I keep fighting for what's right.

                        by Matthew Detroit on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 07:12:26 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  not everybody is down w/hr on sight (0+ / 0-)

                        it isn't up to me to make this kind of judgment call. if site admins want to ban this poster they should. it ain't my job. i think it is a worthy diary and i like to be consistent. i don't hr on sight.

                        •  It should be rare. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          fizziks

                          Which I have tried to use with much caution.

                          However, as I am someone that typically gives people the benefit of the doubt... I am sure that I am correct.

                          Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

                          by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 07:27:34 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Matt, you need to get ahold of yourself (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jethrock, thebluecrayon

                  Just please do me a favor and click on the diarist big orange name and you will see his/her recent diaries.  There is the anti-Semetic rant.  There are the two diaries about Tiger Woods and "gold diggers".  And so on.  This person has an MO of stirring up shit here that gets HRd to oblivion, then writing a popular diary that gets enough mojo to avoid the autoban.

                  You are doing your cause a disservice with your defense of this person.

  •  libs critical of Israel should check out jstreet (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie

    and get on their mailing list:

    http://www.jstreet.org/...

    They are Jews working to counter AIPAC's influence and bring peace in the Mideast. Good stuff.  

    Let's let the pols do the selling out, you and I keep fighting for what's right.

    by Matthew Detroit on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 01:34:53 PM PDT

  •  oh noez! (5+ / 0-)

    god-kills-kitten-troll

    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

    by canadian gal on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 01:41:26 PM PDT

  •  Any progressive should be willing to acknowledge (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie

    that there are things to criticize about Israeli policy and AIPAC. HRing and making wild accusations of antisemitism against someone for raising these issues is an attempt to suppress discussion. Engage the diarist, don't resort to that.

  •  uprated for hr abuse /nt (0+ / 0-)
    •  Did you you look at their history (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fizziks, thebluecrayon

      before making the decision to come to their defense?

      I strongly suggest you do.

      Baby's on fire And all the laughing boys are bitching, Waiting for photos, Oh the plot is so bewitching-- Brian Eno

      by jethrock on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 07:54:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  sigh (0+ / 0-)

      Did you look at the diarist's history from the past 2 days?

      If you did, and yet still uprated this tip jar, you are a racist, plain and simple.

      If you didn't and yet still uprated this tip jar, then you are not being a good member of the community.

        •  p.s. I love how richiedoc's comments got HRed (0+ / 0-)

          and this diarist got uprated and didn't even make hiddens.  Super.

          Tip Jar (15+ / 9-)

          Recommended by: ecostar, BradMajors, Matthew Detroit, zannie, peacestpete, richiedoc, Iranaqamuk, shaharazade, State Department, Kickemout, dark daze, HartfordTycoon, sharonsz, Friendlystranger, Basho
          Hidden by: Treg, fizziks, MTmofo, simonsays, Dcoronata, zemblan, Its the Supreme Court Stupid, jethrock, thebluecrayon

          by catlover9 on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 02:03:16 PM EDT

          No place in Berkely for CAIRist Factions (0+ / 8-)

          Hidden by: mattman, Aunt Martha, Celtic Merlin, jethrock, thebluecrayon, soysauce, Fire bad tree pretty, canadian gal

          specifically: the anti-semitic Muslim extremists and agitators who are have infiltrated and disrupted many UC campuses including Berkeley and UC Irvine.  Time to throw these exchange students out of office and expose the funding source that has placed them strategically at campuses all over the country - for the express purpose of attacking teachers, lecturers, and students who are pro Israel - CAIR.

          by richiedoc on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 04:19:34 PM EDT

        •  why disagree with racist? (0+ / 0-)

          If someone has read catlover9's diaries and approves, that person must be racist, because those diaries are racist.

          •  Well, because those are the guidelines (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie

            set here.  I really don't know why zannie uprates half the stuff she (? I think she) does.  It boggles my mind.  But uprating this diary doesn't prove she's racist.  And we're not allowed to bring up past conflicts, which I have disagreed with just before those rules were posted because I think it is forced and unnatural.  But I'm willing to try what MB has clearly taken great pains to suggest to help make DKos a more pleasant place.  Hey, he's lived an interesting life, maybe he knows some stuff I don't.  

            I think if this were a troll who was targeting a different minority.  People wouldn't have the excuse of "it's just Israel" to hide behind.  And this type of diary would get an enormous amount of HRs.  The fact that it doesn't and instead gets uprates is usually infuriating, but I've used up my alloted stress quota for today in a different conversation, so there's none left over for zannie's uprates today.

            •  blue (0+ / 0-)

              i take my hiderates seriously. i didn't hiderate richie's racist comment because it was already hiderated and i don't do hiderate pileons unless there are enough uprates a comment i think deserves to be hidden appears to be possibly hauled out of hiddens. (tho i did uprate some posters who hr'd the post in support of their hrs)

              i haven't been privy to all the diaries that led up to MB's recent diary but i don't need to be to respect his rulings.

              the content in this diary is worthy and deserves exposure. the criticisms wrt to content of the diary, the allegations the video was 'highly edited' (i'm paraphrasing from memory of yesterday w/out a review) is irrelevant wrt to the specific quotes which were not taken out of context plus the criticism of the diary implying "take over" (w/quotes around "takeover") of aipac, is deceptive because the speaker specifically stated "take over" and i believe meant "take over" therefore it was not any implied meaning by the diarist that was untruthful.

              furthermore the reader was introduced to the complaints immediately when entering the comment thread. to me, there is a difference between a request not to uprate and an hr. i did not feel the diary deserved to be hidden on its own merits. i would not have uprated it had it not been hidden. i stated why i uprated (hr abuse).

              fizziks is neither a site admin or the one who makes rules around here. from MB's diary:

              (3) The commenter(s) engages in this conduct with the intent to harass, harm, humiliate, frighten or intimidate another poster. This intent may be inferred from the number of times that the commenter follows a community member into threads and/or the nature of the comments posted.

              get it? i will not be intimidated by accusations of racist for uprating what appears to me to be hr abuse.

              we all must navigate this site to the best of our abilities and comments like this: "If you did, and yet still uprated this tip jar, you are a racist, plain and simple." are clearly intended to intimidate. i do not have to follow fizziks standards. i am not required to read a bunch of the diarist history to judge whether i think the information in this diary should be hidden. i do not want this diary hidden i think the information is important. these are my standards. additionally i am not up on karl marx, socialism and communism wrt how it relates to jews or russian history or how many jews held government positions in the soviet union nor do i really care (tho maybe i would if i learned about it) nor do i think it is relevant to this diary.
              (i do recall we had a conversation once before about 'russian conspiracy theory' but you were not forthcoming in revealing this conspiracy as i recall)

              i think the diary would have been much more interesting had the comment section focused solely on the content of the diary which was largely ignored due to the efforts of a few posters which imho amounts to stalking and highjacking. it derailed away from the content into an ad hominem attack that tasked the reader to research the past of the diarist and as far as i know this is not any kind of standard or requirement on this site. i will not be intimidated by what some members of this community find grounds for hr's. i hold the same standards for all posters and i do not hr diaries of posters i don't like unless i find the contents hr worthy. period.

              that said thank you for coming to my defense wrt accusation of racism. i appreciate it.

              •  for the millionth time (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Meteor Blades, jethrock

                This is from the FAQ

                1. The exception to the normal troll rating golden rule of "rate the comment, not who makes it" is for people so disruptive to the community that they need to be quickly autobanned. This is a very difficult threshold to reach, and is reserved almost entirely for freepers or other trolls here only to disrupt. "Troll rate on sight" is not intended to be used against anyone but the most obvious and egregious of trolls -- if your definition of obvious and egregious is not the definition used by the rest of the community or by the site administrators, expect your rating ability to be suspended.

                I told you to go look at the diarist's history and you will see that he is a troll by any definition.  But you refused to do so.  It is not my fault that you wouldn't do that, but if you do refuse to look at the diarist's history, you are not in a position to dispute my assertion that the diarist is a known troll.

                So why wouldn't you even look?  Why wouldn't you go look at the shitstorm in a diary that even Meteor Blades said was anti-Semitic, and judge for yourself?  There are only two explainations as far as I can tell.

                As much as you apologists for this troll want to make it so, this rule from the FAQ has not been superceded my MB's latest diary.

              •  zannie (0+ / 0-)

                I'm too tired to get into a long convo right now.  

                Wiped out from a different longer convo. :(  My apologies.

                Have a good night okay.

            •  thebluecrayon.. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zannie, Noah in NY, thebluecrayon

              Well, because those are the guidelines...... And we're not allowed to bring up past conflicts, which I have disagreed with just before those rules were posted because I think it is forced and unnatural

              ..are you referring to the "clean slate" rule in MB's diary?   If you are the "clean slate" only applies to a very specific set of circumstances and factions revolving around the HCR debate (being vague here).    It's still OK to bring up poster's comment histories in these threads, although personally I try to avoid bringing old fights/grudges from thread to thread.  But if a user has a history of bigoted or trollish behavior it's still OK to bring that fact up.

              ps.  although I do think a couple of users maybe went overboard in trying to persuade people not to uprate the diaryist, especially calling one uprater "racist".

          •  And because (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie, fizziks

            I'd rather me tell you than someone use it as an excuse to rail on you.  I'd like to see you stick around to write more diaries, selfishly.  And not be dinged for violating the rules because you were justifiably angry.

              •  ps (0+ / 0-)

                i thought many of fizziks posts in this diary were hr worthy but i didn't hr them because i didn't want to stir the shit. i think it is one thing to state your position, it is another thing hanging out in a thread and continually harass posters all the way thru the comment section tasking them w/the choice between his way in violation of MB's recent request. rude rude rude and it reeks of obsession.

                the time stamp on my uprate of this diary is testament to the fact i thought about it long and hard, read the entire comment thread first and uprated after returning to the diary and assessing many factors. i certainly didn't derive any pleasure from uprating the dairy and under the circumstances wouldn't had it not been hr'd.

                •  bellshit (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jethrock, thebluecrayon

                  I stated my opinion ONCE, then was continually challenged on it by people (yourself included) who still refuse to check out the diarist's troll history.  

                  •  lol (0+ / 0-)

                    continually challenged? is this what you call a challenge?

                    glad you didn't miss it...

                    sounds more like a blowoff to me. but how could anyone miss such classics as

                    plus the claim that people voting is a "take over"

                    !!!! i believe 'takeover' was the exact words used by the aipac rep. this is your grand example of 'What about this specific diary is troll-worthy?' along w/your assertion the video was 'highly edited' which implies it is deceptive. do you really think the video was a misrepresentatio of events? as if another interpretation of 'takeover' should be applied. you've got around 40 comments in this diary so i think you made your point, along with accusations i am a racist.

                    i am not an apologist for the poster, i am defending the info in this one diary as being worthy of the site. i did check out one of your links to the diary about russia and you just have to excuse people who do not know enough russian history to ascertain what it is that is so glaringly obvious to you. i avoid diaries like that as i don't even know what many of the references are when they start talking about marx, jews and socialism/communism and russian history. there were socialist russian jews, so what? i'm not part of some pack who is going to jump on a tar and feathering campaign when i could no more defend my stance than fly to the moon.

                    and no, i am not requited to go on a witch hunt just because you spam a diary w/40 comments. given the fact MB just wrote a 'clean slate' diary (sans the instruction 'unless fizziks says otherwise) pardon me for using my own judgment. if this poster is as vile as you say there will be ample time to snag him/her and i'm sure others w/more awareness on this site than me will have him/her banned.

                    re the most obvious and egregious of trolls  who need to be quickly autobanned. write MB. maybe the reason this poster is still here is because whats clear to you isn't obvious to other people or it doesn't cross the line enough to warrant a banning. for example, i don't know why that is hr'd. it is over my head. furthermore while i am not a communist and condemn some examples of communism in history (chinas cultural revolution) i don't 'hate' communism. in fact i admire people who conceptualize inventive political theory regardless of their ethnicity as long as in theory it advocates equal rights. so this whole 'blame jews' for communism thing is a tad dependent in condemning communism, which i don't or can't or won't. iow your example wasn't good enough for me or would have required doing much more research. your behavior here on this thread has not been compelling enough to inspire me to dig further, because of you. especially i will not be kowtowed into plowing into this posters past comments or ratings because you say i am a racist if i don't.

                    you're being a bully. that's how you are coming across to me, here in this thread. the next time i  encounter you in another diary i will give you the benefit of the doubt and weigh your posts accordingly. i know it must frustrate you to some degree, so be it.

                    •  zannie.. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zannie, Noah in NY, thebluecrayon

                      and no, i am not requited to go on a witch hunt just because you spam a diary w/40 comments. given the fact MB just wrote a 'clean slate' diary (sans the instruction 'unless fizziks says otherwise..

                      ..right, you are not required to HR, nor refrain from uprating this diary due to the user's history, but as I pointed out here,  and just now, here, the "clean slate" policy ONLY applies to a certain set of narrowly defined incidents/users revolving around the HCR debate.   It's has nothing to do with the I/P threads.

                      •  oh (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sofia, Noah in NY

                        I confirmed this with MB via email.

                        oh, this wasn't clear to me. this is the first time i saw this comment this is a good example of how myself or others may misread things when we have no idea what the context is (meaning MB's inspiration). will review his diary none the less to glean it for the stalking and other info and see if my misunderstanding was more just a result of my laziness or lack of scrutiny. i did notice he didn't link to anything in his diary and i knew i missed most of the pie fight, whatever it was that took place.

                        i am trying to do a 'refresh' around here myself(on my state of mind). i tend to be more liberal w/my rec's in general and stingy w/my hr's. revenge is not my forte.

                      •  and thank you (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sofia, Noah in NY

                        i might have missed that 'I confirmed this with MB via email' had you not linked to it directly as i am no longer reading this thread in its entirety.

          •  By that standard.. (0+ / 0-)

            ..you're a racist for rec'ing a comment advocating Avigdor Lieberman's ethnic cleansing fantasies.  I'd be a little more circumspect throwing around the racist charge based on recs and uprates if I were you.  

            •  yeah whatever (0+ / 0-)

              That comment was a clarification to what Lieberman actually advocates.  The comment was not advocating what Lieberman advocates, simply providing information.

              Try again.

              •  Shows.. (0+ / 0-)

                yeah whatever

                ..how seriously you take anti-Arab racism.

                That comment was a clarification to what Lieberman actually advocates.

                 

                The comment was not advocating what Lieberman advocates, simply providing information.

                You recommended two comments in that thread that most read as supporting Avigdor Lieberman's ethic cleansing plans.  And you didn't bother to clarify your uprates, when objections were raised to the two comments you uprated.  That said, it just reinforces my point of being very sparing with the racist charge directed toward users based on recs and uprates.

                •  But this diarist's racism has been attested (0+ / 0-)

                  by the site admins.  That is quite a difference, IMHO.  And what I asked was that people review the history before uprating this diary, which they didn't.

                  •  You seem.. (0+ / 0-)

                    ..to be missing my comment yesteday in this thread.

                    Heh.. (3+ / 0-)

                    ..look at his tip jar history.   Looks like every one of his diaries have been substantially or overwhelmingly HR'ed.    And look which new user made a point of uprating h/she repeatedly in this diary.  ;)

                    Unadikum!

                    by sofia on Fri Apr 09, 2010 at 11:00:27 PM EDT

                    I agree that this diarist shouldn't have been uprated.   That doesn't mean you can force people to listen to you and when they don't call them racists.  

                    And for the record I went back and looked at that thread where you made those uprates and I don't see how you could have interpreted those comments especially the second one the way you did, especially since the second commenter came back and admitted he did support Lieberman's plan.  

                    Finally, this diarist should be banned already.   I doubt it will be much longer.  

  •  The Jooz are going to take over Lady Gaga (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jethrock, canadian gal

    too!

    Thanks for playing tonight's round of recycling old antisemitic memes.  AIPAC Threatens to takeover UC Berkely, the 2010 version of The Jews are threatening to takeover the government.  Yeah we get it.  No thank you.  

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