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Could this be why so many hate the US?

Because there is a Grand Canyon between oft-repeated words of "freedom" from US leaders and the real-life policies so many (but so few Americans) see on the ground in the Middle East (and actually around the world).

Sarah Palin and crew think it's all about "hating our freedoms". Instead, we need to deal with reality and start changing US policy. Quickly. We are not safe when the US continues to support attacks against civilians in their homes, who have done us no harm. How can we expect to be safe when US policy makes others unsafe?

We need to stop supporting a foreign military that has chosen to wage war on civilians to achieve its political ends.

Israeli authorities on Tuesday reportedly handed demolition orders to four Palestinian residents in the West Bank city of Halhul, notifying them that their homes and water reservoir were to be bulldozed.

Halhul Mayor Ziyad Abu Yousif told Ma'an that Israeli forces stormed the Rumouz neighborhood of the city, where they distributed the notices to Ahmad Awad, Muhammad Zamara, and Dirar Zamara, informing them of plans to demolish their homes.- Maan

What reason is given by the Occupation Army, generously funded by US taxpayers?

The mayor added that forces further handed a warrant to Muhammad Abu Yousif, notifying him that his water reservoir would be demolished because of its close proximity to Area C, which is under full Israeli control.

West Bank Home
This is what US Policy Looks Like

The Oslo Accords created three temporary distinct administrative divisions in the West Bank. Area "A", less than 3% of the West Bank, was supposed to be under the full control of the Palestine Authority (has not worked out like that). Area B was under joint control. Area C, is under full control of the Israeli Occupation forces, and this is about 60% of the West Bank. by full control, it means that the Israeli government decides what is built, what is not built, and what is demolished to smithereens.

Area C covers 60% of the West Bank, home to around 70,000 Palestinians. It is also the area in which most Jewish settlements, all illegal under international law, are built. Compelling statistical evidence shows that while it is extremely hard for Palestinians to obtain building permits, settlements continue to grow rapidly.

Research by the Israeli group Peace Now found that 94% of Palestinian permit applications for Area C building were refused between 2000 and September 2007. Only 91 permits were granted to Palestinians, but 18,472 housing units were built in Jewish settlements. As a result of demolition orders 1,663 Palestinian buildings were demolished, against only 199 in the settlements. "The denial of permits for Palestinians on such a large scale raises the fear that there is a specific policy by the authorities to encourage a 'silent transfer' of the Palestinian population from area C," Peace Now said. - The Guardian

This did not start with the Netanyahu government.

This is a clear example of apartheid, a crime under international law. Systematic denial of basic human rights and democratic freedoms based on race or ethnicity. The Palestinians have no say in the government that makes decisions on their land. Nothing. The Palestine Authority has no say about these things. Yet Jewish residents in the same area are granted full democratic rights, which they use very well. (of course, they also resort to attacks against Palestinians, and even in some cases attacks against the Israeli military to achieve their goals).  

We owe an explanation to Muhammad Abu Yousif. Is his home, his water tank, a threat to the United States? Is that why the US continues to fund the military that wants to demolish it? I don't think so.

Perhaps it is Israel that owes us an explanation. Do they not know, or not care, that such actions is a threat to US security (and, it goes without saying, Israeli security)?  It is as if, i think for many Israeli leaders, believing that if there is some blowback from this support of Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians, it is actually a good thing, as it helps create more hate, a greater willingness to support military solutions.

Most importantly, of course, we do not oppose these demolitions simply because it hurts the US image, or even because it might at some future date bring more terror attacks against US citizens. WE oppose these demolitions because they are wrong. We know the fate of Muhammad Abu Yousif's home is somehow part of our fate. That is why thousands of internationals and more than a few Israelis insist on the right to go to the West Bank to stand against the home demolitions.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.
-Martin Luther King, Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

Originally posted to Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 08:48 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This diary is a follow -up from yesterdays (19+ / 0-)

    diary. In that one i told the story of the demolition of the home of Ali Salim Mousa, whose home was demolished last week.

    A few took exception to the telling of that story, preferring that it is not discussed. Instead, attacking the messenger, in Im Tirtzu fashion.  

    this diary is dedicated to them.

    Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

    by Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 08:53:28 AM PDT

  •  One day soon (23+ / 0-)

    when apartheid in Israel ends, the Wall falls and Palestinians are free, the world will rejoice.  However, I am quite sure the U.S. Congress and many of Israel's cheerleaders in this country will be the last to face the reality of what Palestinians have endured.  

    We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

    by soysauce on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 08:57:44 AM PDT

  •  i say (5+ / 0-)

    tear down the wall, fence or whatever you call it..

    combine the countries and re name it the united whatever

    scots and brits were at war for hundreds of years then united finally and now live in peace

    i realize its far fetched considering these guys have different religions and languages but so hell what.

    •  Um . . . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1

      . . . saying the Brits and Scots are at "peace" might be stretching it.  Just ask the Society of the Devil's Elbow, and other Scottish nationalist groups.  

      Let's face it, a two-state solution is the only viable one.  If it isn't too late.

    •  More and more Palestinians believe (15+ / 0-)

      that a binational solution is the way forward since Israel seems unmovable on the issue of a sovereign, viable Palestinian state.  They are demanding equal rights in the de facto one state situation they live in today.  

      Support for a one-state solution is the highest it has ever been, a new poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communication Centre released on Wednesday indicated.

      The poll covered support for the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and the Hamas-led government in Gaza, as well as gauging trust in Palestinian politicians. It has a margin of error of three percentage points, the JMCC said.

      Nearly 34 percent of respondents favored a binational state in all of historic Palestine over the two-state solution, which only 43.9 percent supported, the JMCC poll found.

      We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

      by soysauce on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 09:39:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i do think it is up to people there to decide, (11+ / 0-)

        but however it is done, it must be based on international law and recognition of human rights for all.

        It should not be based simply on which side has the most guns.

        Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

        by Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 09:46:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If I may correct you a little, Tom . . . (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MrJayTee

          It should not be based simply on which side has the most guns.

          That should read, ". . . which side has the most US Taxpayer-supplied guns, fighter jets, tanks, artillery pieces, helicopter gunships, missiles, bulldozers, and ammunition."

          Minor point, but it needed to be made.

          :0)

          Celtic Merlin
          Carlinist

          Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

          by Celtic Merlin on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 02:13:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  So what do you think of Salam Fayyad's (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, Captain C, hikerbiker

        decision to declare a State in August of 2011? He continues to develop this and given that Two States still have a 9.9% lead in polling if this goes forward don't you see Two-States gaining ground again.

        Further - how are you going to get the Israelis to go along with a One State Solution? What makes you think after 62 years they are just going to give up, sit down and toss their country? I really am curious about this. I don't ask it in a hostile manner. I just would like to know how you think this will realistically happen?

        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

        by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 09:57:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How popular is Fayyad? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, borkitekt

          Will his support of a two state solution translate into greater support for him, or will it translate into less support for the two state solution? You might want to think carefully about who has credibility here.

          As far as your second point, I think most people realize that it will be a struggle.  

          Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

          by Alec82 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:12:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what Israel will allow is not (7+ / 0-)

            even a two-state resolution. they will not be equal states with equal rights. It would be a statelet for Palestine, ever-dependent on the goodwill of the Israeli state, crowded into their little bantustans.

            Muhammad Abu Yousif and others like him knows about Israel's goodwill. Certainly the Oslo Accords are not working for him.

            Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

            by Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:17:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, dancewater

              What's being proposed is more a prop than a state.  But I'm trying to figure out why Volley believes that Fayyad will be able to grow support for the proposal.  

              Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

              by Alec82 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:22:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Stop trying to figure out what I believe and (3+ / 0-)

                read what I am asking. You spend so much time interpreting what I think that you presuppose things. I answered your question in the post below.

                Now Tom (to answer you here) I am not talking about Israel's goodwill. I asked you a serious question that no one here seems to want to answer. What is the nature of the struggle you see?

                How are you going to convince the Israelis to end the occupation?

                I agree with you that it needs to end. BUT how are you as someone who doesn't particularly believe in Israeli legitimacy or that Israel should be a National Homeland for the Jewish people going to convince Israelis that you have their interests in mind.

                We on the Progressive Wing of Zionism have enough trouble with that issue  - what are you going to solve this? I am really curious as to your answer.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:38:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  that is incorrect, (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  weasel, dancewater, heathlander, Peacenick

                  Israel as a homeland of the Jewish people is fine, as long as it remains a homeland for Palestinians as well. Even in a two-state solution, many Palestinians will remain there.

                  I don't know exactly how we are going to convince Israelis. The 100 Billion plus the US has sent so far seems to have little influence.

                  What is ironic is that you propose decreasing US aid, and that happens to be much beyond what J Street and anything more than maybe a handful of US congresspeople will support at this point. 75% of congress is on record of any public US pressure on Israel at all. (though, to be positive, that aipac did not get 95% like they usually do is a small, but real  breakthrough).

                  I want to know how we are going to make it US policy to work for change.

                  Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

                  by Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:54:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well how we are going to change (3+ / 0-)

                    U.S. policy? It is certainly not going to come from advocating a radical break for past policy. It is not going to come from advocating that Israel be gone or that U.S. "Running Dog Imperialism and it's Capitalistic Systems be dismantled". It is just not going to happen.

                    It is going to have to come in alliance with Jewish progressives like J Street. JVP and other groups just are not representative enough to take on AIPAC. J Street however is making strides.

                    One other thing is that I only propose decreasing aid in relation to the Occupation. The second Two-States is decided upon or is found with an accepted Palestinian / International consensus - I want that and would advocate for that aid to be fully restored.

                    Yesterday Alec asked me what my "endgame" was - Two States is it.

                    You say you are not sure how you will convince the Israelis to quit the Occupation. Well Tom, and this is not a criticsm specific to you... That is sort of an important component to leave out of a strategy, wouldn't you agree?

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 11:11:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Two States" IS the optimal solution. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      MrJayTee

                      The obstacles to that are many and powerful.  The current Israeli government being the biggest.  Right behind them is the highly-influential AIPAC and their positions on the major issues.  The MSM doing nothing to report the facts about the Occupation to Americans helps the status-quo remain intact.

                      Finally, I don't feel that most Israelis are willing to give up the water, the land, and the resources of the West Bank when they have relative peace without having to give any of this up.

                      Celtic Merlin
                      Carlinist

                      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                      by Celtic Merlin on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 02:00:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Captain C

            answers to those first questions.... I know that polls show him as not popular but from what I recall it is not out of hatred - it is more out of his reputation for being a "technocrat" more so than a charasmatic leader. However he has strong backing from the people that can make this happen - the E.U., Quartet, and the U.S..... So, I don't know.

            As for this:

            As far as your second point, I think most people realize that it will be a struggle.

            What kind of struggle? This is an important question btw. I realize that BDS and demonstrations are non-violent. However did you see today's Ha'aretz? There is a new poll out showing 30% support for Armed Struggle.

            Again, I am not making suppositions here - I am asking real questions.

            As far as this pertains to the diary topic: The Occupation sucks and has to be ended. Can it be ended in an atmosphere of Armed hostility? Can it be ended if the Israelis have their backs to the wall economically? Personally, I feel that PM Fayyad's plan is a best hope. I think if things stay peaceful - he can pull this off. I think Bradley Burston put it well yesterday:

            Declare Independence and End the Occupation

            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

            by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:26:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK he has strong backing... (5+ / 0-)

              ...from the EU, the Quartet and the United States...and you don't realize why he has a credibility problem? Putting aside for a moment the (I think insurmountable) problems with his plan to build up the infrastructure for a Palestinian state, his source of support is primarily the donor community; he doesn't have any support among Palestinians.  

              See, you like to talk about how the binational solution doesn't have any support among Israelis, but you prop up Fayyad as an attractive alternative to Hamas and Fatah.  He's not an alternative.  In the 2006 elections he picked up what, two percent of the vote?

              He was educated abroad and he isn't perceived as having taken any risks or made any sacrifices in the struggle against the occupation.  He does not have any meaningful support among the Palestinians.  Little wonder that he's praised by the Washington elite and New York Times columnists.  

              Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

              by Alec82 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:48:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  See? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              weasel, heathlander, Alec82, simone daud

              This is what I was talking about yesterday. All that matters is that Fayyad is supported by the foreign powers-that-be. The fact that Palestinians are unsure of his plans and his goals and that he's made no effort to reach out to Palestinians doesn't matter at all.

              I know that polls show him as not popular but from what I recall it is not out of hatred - it is more out of his reputation for being a "technocrat" more so than a charasmatic leader.

              And this is completely wrong. From the JMCC poll just released:
              reasons for voting

              It has nothing to do with the fact that he's a technocrat, and everything to do with the fact that he's not a democrat. He, like his benefactors, doesn't care that the Palestinian population has no confidence in him because his authority doesn't come from them.

              As for what methods Palestinians support, from the same poll:
              how to end occupation

              At some point what Palestinians think and care about will come into play, and when it does, everyone will have a nice wakeup call. And I for one will enjoy it immensely.

              •  Great I am completely wrong on Fayyad (0+ / 0-)

                that is why I posted things with the caveat I don't know but I understand. So with your glee I will freely admit I seem to be wrong about Fayyad.

                As far as non-violence see my answer to weasel and what has changed my mind. I see what the poll results show. It is what is moving me to the left.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 12:36:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't see the need for (8+ / 0-)

                  diverting from the substance with sentences like this:

                  So with your glee I will freely admit I seem to be wrong about Fayyad.

                  I'm trying to make a point about how Palestinians and their welfare are not really a priority in anyone's thinking. Not even with Fayyad, who is ostensibly supposed to represent them but can't be bothered to try to rally them around his ideas. I would like some acknowledgement of my argument and, if there is disagreement, I'd like to know why.

                  But if you think I'm attacking you personally by pointing to information that contradicts what you're saying, you are certainly free to do so.

                  •  I feel that your tone is an attack (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    hikerbiker

                    but then it seems that you think mine is as well - and I think personally we are both being defensive (I admit that).

                    I asked specific questions above that now you are answering. So... I do acknowledge your argument regarding the Palestinian people and their centrality to an agreement from their side. But they are just one side of the peace agreement that hopefully will come someday.

                    Funny but, I feel the same frustration here regarding what I am saying just in reverse.

                    Which if you come to think of it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 12:56:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  "the people that can make this happen" (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  weasel, capelza

                  That's what I find troubling about your parent comment.  You seem to believe that the donors can "make this happen," along with the Israeli government.  They can't.  A negotiated settlement will only come about with the Palestinians, and only if they are represented by a legitimate party.  

                  Here is what the donors can do: They can provide Israel with financial assistance to remove the settlers, the PA with financial assistance to prevent a total collapse of the West Bank economy, they can bring on mediators to facilitate negotiations (if you've ever participated in a mediation or settlement conference you might have some idea what I have in mind here), etcetera.  

                  Let me tell you, though, that these people, the people that you want to help Israel and the Palestinians reach a settlement, they can't make political decisions.  They are not in a position to do much more than make recommendations.  Go read the position and research papers that they write, whether it is the World Bank, the IMF, the EU or the US (through USAID or the State Department).  They're in the business of providing technical assistance.  Everything that they write is littered with euphemisms.  So there are "political questions" and "policy obstacles" and "security concerns" that limit the reach of their recommendations.  They are not even representatives of the donor governments.

                  BDS, however, is designed to have an impact on the political process.   Which is why I really don't understand your opposition to it, particularly something so limited, as was the case with Berkeley.  AIPAC's bizarre threats to take over the student government I understand at least, they're accustomed to getting what they want.  Your own threat to boycott the UCs, and the response of J Street, is a little more troubling, because it is unclear how you plan to actually oppose the occupation.  It seems like you're moving the ball.

                  Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                  by Alec82 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 12:54:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  First of all forget (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, Captain C

                    AIPAC - they have nothing to contribute that will is good for any of us to this debate.

                    Here is that frustration that I am talking about. I have spent a week discussing specifics of my issues with BDS, the ASUC, what I suggest to do to change the occupation and what I am doing. And in return I hear this:

                    Your own threat to boycott the UCs, and the response of J Street, is a little more troubling, because it is unclear how you plan to actually oppose the occupation.  It seems like you're moving the ball.

                    Now Alec, honestly I feel like I am shouting at the wall here - I say things but they just don't get heard. Read your diary and my exchange with Heathlander. Read the comments around Tom's diary about the ASUC vote. I am clear. J Street is clear. Look at Paul in Berkeley's response to fizziks from my diary yesterday.

                    Look man,I am not blowing off Palestinian voices but their concerns have to match mine to support them. As long as BDS supports the Palestinian Right of Return to pre 1967 Israel I can't support it. As long as I think the Israelis can change the situation I won't support it. I have been clear about this from the beginning.

                    Alec, I am not moving the ball. I don't and won't support One State unless it is the Israelis who change things. See my response to weasel. I want the occupation ended tomorrow - but I want it ended on terms that I know leave Israel as the National Homeland of the Jews intact. AND NO ONE on my side whether they admit it or not (out of politeness here) believes different.

                    That is why I call for honesty here and why I am not surprised that some on your side of this won't give an answer to my questions above. weasel was the only one to address that. I can respect his comment though I don't agree with it. At least he had the courage to openly discuss this.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:07:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Wow (6+ / 0-)

                "Non-violent resistance" is actually much less hopeful in the West Bank (where it is practiced) than in Gaza.  That suggests that the Israeli repression of non-violent protesters is working.  I'm not sure Palestinians can keep it up for the couple of decades needed to empower the liberal Zionists and boost their confidence enough to make some concessions before Palestinians resort to a little violence and immediately loose all liberal Zionist support.
                 
                Sorry, Volley, but this poll (and discussion overall) highlights the critical issue for me.  Even with "Palestinians peaceful" and "the Israeli left in power", we might see nothing happen for a decade, then when Palestinians explode in frustration, you'd denounce them as a people who can't be peaceful.  I don't see what new is provided by "your way."

                •  I don't know that (6+ / 0-)

                  we can talk about trends here just yet. I don't remember this question being asked before in any of the JMCC polls.

                  But certainly the fact that support for nonviolent resistance is higher in Gaza is quite relevant.

                  •  See now let me ask you both something (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Captain C

                    Rather than what weasel says:

                    That suggests that the Israeli repression of non-violent protesters is working.

                    could it be that the people in Gaza see what Hamas is bringing upon them and see developments in the West Bank as positive in terms of world / Israeli Leftist support. Could that be what this is?

                    There is no agenda to my question I am asking it as just that a question.

                    The Israeli Left is under complete assault btw by the current coalition. It's a joke that Tom compares us to the folks at Im Tirzu. Those guys hate us more than you all.... But that is another mistake currently being made.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:13:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Firstly, (8+ / 0-)

                      let me fix a misconception:

                      Those guys hate us more than you all

                      I do not have strong enough feelings about anyone in this diary to hate them. If I hated you, you would know it.

                      Now to answer your question, I think it presupposes that Gazans view their plight as primarily the fault of Hamas. I think it's quite clear that Israel is the reason the blockade continues, and they are under no delusions about that.

                      What they do blame Hamas for is stuff like the new taxes that it has started to impose, its constant attempts to assert its authority over the tunnels, the Hamas security forces being rowdy, stuff like that.

                      In other words, they're blaming Israel for what Israel does to them and Hamas for what Hamas does to them.

                      I would say that Gazan support for nonviolent methods being so high is a mixture of three things:

                      1. At this time, the costs of armed resistance clearly outweigh the benefits for most people. So for the people taking the poll, there's pretty much a split down the middle as to whether negotiations or nonviolent resistance is the better strategy.
                      1. The fact is, Hamas has not been engaging in armed conflict with Israel. It has, in fact, prevented others from attacking Israel as well. I think the fact that the rulers of the Gaza are not tolerating armed resistance at this point is significant.
                      1. Gazans are aware of the huge level of support they're are receiving from the outside world. It's possible that the substantial number of them believe that this sort of pressure campaign would work. So to the extent that people in the West Bank and Israel are protesting their plight, I would say, yes, that could explain why this number is as high as it is.
                    •  I gotta agree with unspeakable on this one, VB. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      capelza, Terra Mystica, unspeakable

                      Your statement:

                      Those guys hate us more than you all....

                      Is inflammatory and offensive.  Who hates you, VB?  For that matter, who is the "us" in that sentence - Israelis?  Americans? - that "we all" are a-hatin' on?

                      Tom compares those who attempt diary hijacks and execute personal attacks on the diarist (instead of discussing the diary topic) to Im Tirzu - whoever they are.  If you wish to include yourself in either of those categories, that's up to you.  I don't feel that you belong there, but it's not my place to exclude you from a group of which you wish to be a part.

                      In the meanwhile, homes and a reservoir are going to be demolished by the IDF - for no damn good reason.

                      Celtic Merlin
                      Carlinist

                      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                      by Celtic Merlin on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:52:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I was just about to rec your comment (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, canadian gal

                and then I read "everyone will have a nice wakeup call" and hesistated.

                What is this wake up call that you will enjoy so immensely?

                Of course, what Palestinians think and care about is crucially important, as is what Israelis think and care about.  

                Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                by hikerbiker on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 09:20:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's happening as we speak. (3+ / 0-)

                  The more Israel stalls about allowing a Palestinian state to come into existence, the less Palestinians will support a two-state solution. The poll that was just released shows the highest levels of support for one-state ever.

                  Just as you cannot force a one-state solution on Israelis, you cannot force a two-state solution on Palestinians. What I'm going to enjoy is the rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth among the people who refused to act when they had the chance. The Germans call it Schadenfreude, I believe.

                  In any case, this:

                  Of course, what Palestinians think and care about is crucially important, as is what Israelis think and care about.

                  is demonstrably untrue. In the halls of power, only Israeli concerns are given any sort of primacy. Palestinians are expected to work around Israel's needs and wants.

                  •  I understand your frustration, and more. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JNEREBEL, canadian gal

                    But the idea that you would actually enjoy a missed opportunity for peace makes me shudder.

                    To make sure I understood your intended meaning, I looked it up:

                    Schadenfreude (pronounced /ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/ About this sound Audio (US) (help·info), German pronunciation: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁɔʏ̯də]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

                    What. The. Fuck???

                    Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                    by hikerbiker on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 09:47:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not going (6+ / 0-)

                      to apologize for looking forward to the day when the idiots, who continue to make life a literal hell for Palestinians, suffer the blame and ostracization that they deserve. When Netanyahu, Liberman, Barak, and their vile ilk go down in history as the butchers of peace, I will not be weeping.

                      If that makes me a bad person, then I'm a bad person.

                    •  Honestly, what do you expect? (7+ / 0-)

                      This is what the Occupation will bring.   This is what happens when you deprive a people of their self-determination, their basic rights, for generations.  It's humiliating, degrading, and you don't expect them to rejoice in the comeuppance?

                      Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                      by Alec82 on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 11:33:27 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  my goodness. (0+ / 0-)

                        seriously? you're saying that in a forum where people are advocating for peace, human rights, etc that someone would welcome failure of that is to be expected?

                        WTF is right.

                        "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                        by canadian gal on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 11:38:14 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yes, seriously (6+ / 0-)

                          Just as you cannot force a one-state solution on Israelis, you cannot force a two-state solution on Palestinians. What I'm going to enjoy is the rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth among the people who refused to act when they had the chance.

                          What, do you think that the Palestinians are chess pieces for the Israeli government? They're human beings that have been deprived of their basic dignity.  I watched on this site as people cheered and defended Cast Lead while parents held their dying children in their arms.  People here, progressives, Americans, cheered that, justified it.  

                          The occupation is a sick one way street to death and suffering, and the Israeli government is largely to blame for continuing it.  They could end it tomorrow if they wanted to, but they will not.  So when the architects of this mass of human suffering find themselves at a loss to explain how "the Arabs" won't accept their "generous" offer, yes, I do understand why they might rejoice in that moment.  And I also understand why it will make most of the citizens of Israel, and the Jews in the diaspora, tremble.  

                          Cause and effect, action and reaction.  But then, we knew this.  This is why I'm not a nationalist.

                          Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                          by Alec82 on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 11:45:40 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Yes, I welcome the failure (7+ / 0-)

                          of this charade that we call the "peace process." I hope it fails miserably and spectacularly and that it takes down as many of its proponents as possible with it.

                          This charade, this farce has facilitated the strengthening of the Israeli iron grip on the Palestinian lives and will only lead to more suppression. While we sit here and talk about how to the butchers in power can get the "peace process" (what a grating and pretentious term that is!) back on track, Israel treats Palestinians like untrained dogs. It has already begun deporting "illegal" Palestinians to Gaza.

                          I want Oslo, and everything that is based on its principles, to be so completely discredited that the only references to it are about how spectacularly stupid it and its proponents truly are.

                          I want the idea that Palestinian rights are expendable and negotiable to be so taboo that only the most racist of pigs would dare espouse such an odious view in public.

                          Right now that is not the case. Well, this idea that Palestinians are not pawns, that their welfare and basic human rights are not negotiable might not be considered mainstream, but mainstream and your moralizing at me can piss off to hell.

                          •  Have I told you lately (6+ / 0-)

                            that I love you?

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 12:48:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I just want to make (6+ / 0-)

                            to something clear because I've been accused in the past of saying things just to get the approval of people on my side.

                            I fully believe every word that I said. This "peace process" is toxic to the Palestinian people. There are many here who want Palestinians to simply return to the negotiating table, but they refuse to understand just how damaging it is to give legitimacy to this vehicle of Palestinian surrender.

                            I mean, just look at the CNAS report that was just issued the other day. CNAS is populated by people who are very close to the Obama admin, and a lot of the current Obama foreign policy and national security teams came from that think tank. They're talking about introducing a foreign "peacekeeping" presence that could potentially be involved in counterinsurgency efforts against Hamas.

                            Is this the "peace" that Palestinians have to look forward to? Where they trade one foreign army for a combined force of multiple foreign armies? All in the name of Israeli security?

                            There are people on here who want to talk about alienation because of what I and others say. These very same people are blissfully (and perhaps willfully) unaware of the alienation that we feel, not at the words of some random people on a random website, but by the actions of the powerful actors who are deciding what the end result will look like.

                          •  ultimately (5+ / 0-)

                            no matter how much you reach out and try to establish some kind of dialogue, in the end you will be portrayed as unreasonable, alienating, and volleyball's newest favorite inaccuracy (he has so damn many), "right wing", because you think your people should have the same rights as theirs, and right now, not in some forever postponed agreement which grants Palestinians a dependent pseudo state without real sovereignty.

                            It's a sick game they've played for years; wring their hands about peace, declare how much they want it, profess their desire for dialogue and tell you how much they've done (I wrote a letter!), but when it comes down to it, the reality is that the human rights of your people are subservient to their very narrowly defined ethnic nationalism, which will never ever include you, or the Palestinians within Israel. It is designed to exclude you, and they fundamentally accept this as a necessary evil for their own well-being. So, fuck the refugees. Fuck the embargoed Gazans (as Alec wrote, pretty much all of them made excuses for Cast Lead). Fuck the people who live under occupation year in and year out and have their fields burned and trees uprooted and lands stolen. All of that is a price worth paying for now (because they are not paying it, of course) as long as the two-state fantasy is shoved down your throat eventually. And who said it will be 22% of historic Palestine? Try 15%, maybe 10%.

                            But let's be fair, at least they are honest about it. They are celebrating the ethnic cleansers Rabin and Ben Gurion. Those were serious criminals, and they are held up as heroes.

                          •  You're absolutely right (6+ / 0-)

                            I've been trying for quite a while to put forward the Palestinian and Arab perspective on this and just keep meeting wall that I cannot even crack let alone breach. A few days ago I posted what I thought was an innocuous comment saying that whatever political configuration we get in the future, equal rights for all in Israel and Palestine is possible now. The response I got was beyond logic, where the commenter wrote (among other things) that 'equal rights for Palestinians means Jews get shit on'.

                            It just boggles the mind. If people are starting from that that type of viewpoint, how on earth can one reach them with the Palestinian perspective?

                            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                            by Fire bad tree pretty on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 07:55:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  Only surprising here (7+ / 0-)

        This news is only surprising to the folks at DKos who have screamed for years that NO ONE in the Middle East wants a binational state.  

        •  a few thoughts. (4+ / 0-)

          a few thoughts:
          i wonder of those that said they support two-states, how many would actually prefer one-binational state?

          the survey was of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, it did not include Palestinian refugees. They are part of those who should decide the future of Palestine.

          But getting back to basics... at this point, Israel refuses to recognize any Palestinian sovereignty in most of the West Bank (much less a willingness to share what was a Palestinian homeland), to the point of placing thousands of settlers there, and refusing Palestinians their right to simply live in homes and farm the land. Never mind political rights for the moment. They are not even allowed to live in most of the West Bank.

          This must be our focus.

          Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

          by Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:14:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Many of us have made the case that (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          livosh1, JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Gatordiet

          the preference among both Israelis and Palestinians is for two states, which the data still bears out. And realistically, the only way you get Israel to go along with one state is violence. Now maybe that's how it goes down, but it certainly underscores the infeasibility of the single state solution.

          •  don't it though. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, Red Sox, volleyboy1, Gatordiet

            one state is a fantasy. It will only come about thru the massive military defeat of Israel.

            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

            by JNEREBEL on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 11:25:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Strange (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Celtic Merlin, unspeakable

              I've heard the same thing about getting Israel to give up East Jerusalem in a two state solution.  Or about getting the Palestinians to relinquish East Jerusalem in a two state solution.  So I guess it is all just fantasy, and peace is impossible.  

              •  So tell us "Oh wise one" (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                livosh1, Captain C, Gatordiet

                perhaps since you are so all knowing or do consistent in answering questions.

                HOW are you going to get the Israelis to accept the One State solution as you see it existing? What is the nature of the struggle you are going to advocate? Ok... you advocate BDS to pressure the Israelis. When you learn the uncomformtable reality that Israel is not South Africa and the Israelis are not going to do what you want them too.... then what?

                You talk a lot of smack here - what is your vision of an endgame when you ignore the Israelis and what they think? More than that - when you ignore the segment of the Israeli population that actually agrees with you in ending the occupation - exactly HOW are you going to make this happen?

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 11:40:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  ??? (6+ / 0-)

                  What makes you think I'm wise?  Or is your sarcasm purely a byproduct of your discomfort at not having easy answers to tough questions?

                  As for my easy answers, I've already told you I don't have them.  I told you it will be a very long process (I guessed around 30 years).  "HOW" will it be done?  How were southerns convinced to accept Black civil rights?  How did white Africans accept equality with Blacks?  How has any struggle for basic rights ever been won?

                  It'll happen slowly.  There will be violence, but it will be a small part of the campaign (on the part of the Palestinians, that is; on the part of the Israeli response it will be larger).  There will be a lot of non-violent campaigning.  There will be linkages built between Arabs in Palestine and in Israel, and there will be outreach to supporters (yes, like BDS) around the world.  There will be atrocities and Israeli frustration that F-16s can't seem to silence a basic demand to be treated as an equal.

                  And there will be you.  Eventually, the chorus of voices that will daily tell you that there is no practical difference between equality with Arabs and genocide of the Jewish people will start to sicken you.  As forces fight against equality with Arabs by increasing repression and demonization, you will find yourself disgusted by such tactics and wonder in a Jewish homeland really requires Jewish dominance.  You will think back and remember that Jews have always been a part of Palestine, and recognize that, one state or two, Jews and Jewish culture will always be there in the future.

                  You'll come around, and you'll eventually find a way to make it happen.  

                  •  Ok.... That is an interesting discussion (4+ / 0-)

                    point - not an answer... but a good start.

                    First things first... my sarcasm comes from people not hearing what I say. It is like this in real life as well. When people place suppositions on my points or ignore them - I get really frustrated. You should see conversations with my wife and boss everyday. You think doing Krav Maga at 47 6x a week is normal? It's not. It's a great tension release to beat the crap out of something (and not hurt anything) for an hour + a day.

                    Anyway that is not important.

                    This is one of those frustrating things:

                    How were southerns convinced to accept Black civil rights?  How did white Africans accept equality with Blacks?  How has any struggle for basic rights ever been won?

                    This is not comparable to anything else in the American experience or South African experience. My criticsm here is that if you didn't blow off things I say or you learned Jewish history you might actually understand just how different the situations are. BUT... as that doesn't seem to be a priority we will never move off of this.

                    Now here I am being brutally honest and this may make some folks upset (maybe they won't care) but I know I am not alone on this.

                    Your last paragraph is right until one thing. If a party like Beitanu became ascendent in Israel - and/or they annexed the West Bank AND (and this is a big and - the critical one in fact) Palestinian resistance remained basically non-violent... I and many others would probably be allies in a BDS campaign. However it would never be with the intention of a One State solution - never.

                    It would be to force change in a Right Wing government. HOWEVER if something like the second intifada happened again. I would never go that way. I will never be someone to go against the existence of Israel aa the National Homeland of the Jewish people unless after a peaceful Two State solution happens and demographics switch away from a Jewish majority happens - then I can't argue with that.

                    BUT..... I and others like me are not your hope for a One State solution. We won't give up on the concept of Israel, we may oppose the Right Wing with all our hearts and abilities - but we will not compromise on a Jewish National Homeland. And that is what you and others need to understand.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 12:18:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Items (4+ / 0-)

                      This is not comparable to anything else in the American experience or South African experience.

                      Is is not THE SAME as the American experience or the South African experience.  But then, no two situations ever are the same.  However, there are some very clear similarities (to Jim Crow for Palestinians in Israel, to Apartheid for Palestinians in the Occupied Territories).  And, of course, the model is the same: "convincing" the dominant group of people to change the power structure in a way that gives a disliked group equal (or greater) power and which the dominant group believes for historical reason is the equivalent of annihilation.  If you refuse to draw any lessons from any other cases in the world, it is just because you don't want to see any options or patterns.

                      My criticsm here is that if you didn't blow off things I say or you learned Jewish history you might actually understand just how different the situations are. BUT... as that doesn't seem to be a priority we will never move off of this.

                      That's interesting.  You didn't say "Israeli history," you said "Jewish history," which I take to include most pre-Israel history.  So then, that history is not useful in explaining the factual, on-the-ground differences between the Israeli occupation and Jim Crow or Apartheid; instead it would be history that offers justifications for why Israel acts the way it does.

                      That is a dangerous slope. If you read the words of the Afrikaaners, you would see that they believed they had historical reasons for acting the way they do, and real fears as to what would happen once blacks were in control.  

                      We've had this discussion before: I try to talk about the real-world similarities and differences, and you want to talk about justifications as to why things are the way the are.

                      As for this:

                      I and others like me are not your hope for a One State solution.... but we will not compromise on a Jewish National Homeland.

                      I disagree, in part based on what you've told me (that if Arabs were ever the majority in Israel, you would still support "democracy" over "Jewish rule"), but mostly based on the fact that as I said before, eventually you will recall that Jews have always been a part of Palestine, and that "a Jewish National Homeland" and the state of Israeli as currently conceived are not synonymous.  

              •  Peace is possible. (3+ / 0-)

                With the two-state solution.

                "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                by JNEREBEL on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:34:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  The idea that people would stop hating the (5+ / 0-)

    United States if we were to stop sending foreign aid to Israel is an interesting flight of fancy, but not one that is really backed up by any data.

    •  ending all US imperialism will help also (5+ / 0-)

      i do think that ending the terrible hypocrisy of talking "freedom" and supporting oppression and militarism is an option worth trying.

      not to mention that such actions are worthy in and of themselves.

      Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

      by Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:31:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Negative proofs and such. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      weasel, dancewater

      I suspect that one could track down popular opinion polls in the Middle East, and see how they track things like the Eisenhower Administration declaring illegal England, France, and Israel's occupation of the Suez Canal Zone and the Sinai Peninsula in 1954; the Bush I Administration curtailing funding and loan guarantees to Israel over continued settlement expansion; etc.

      Maybe I'll have to go through the exercise in a diary.

    •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      unspeakable

      To believe that, you would actually have to believe them when they say that they are against US actions (of which the funding of Israel is a significant, though hardly the only action), not against US freedoms.  You would actually need to believe them when they denounce such US funding and use it as a rallying cry to raise funds, recruits, and publicity.

      Or, you could just watch the actual media in the Middle East and see how Israeli abuses are constantly covered, and note what affect this has on the viewer.

      •  Being (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1, volleyboy1

        "against US actions" doesn't in turn mean that A) they hate us for backing Israel, B) they would stop hating us if we stopped backing Israel, or C) we should necessarily alter our position on Israel because they hate us.

        Or, you could just watch the actual media in the Middle East and see how Israeli abuses are constantly covered, and note what affect this has on the viewer.

        Short of getting together a statistically representative sample of Arabic-language newscast viewers, gauging the level of coverage, and polling them on how said coverage affects their opinions of the United States, this is a relative impossibility. Moreover, it still wouldn't demonstrate that their reaction, in and of itself, justifies a shift in U.S. policy.

        •  Well (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica, unspeakable, Alec82

          C is obviously true, but is a separate point so I won't address it.

          A, well, again, just ask them.  They only hate us for backing Israel if you believe them when they say they hate us for backing Israel.

          B is the point.  Would us stopping the backing of Israel making them stop hating us.  This is a tricky business, of course.  It would certainly improve things to some extent.  I can not prove that of course, because it is a hypothetical future, but I base this on 30 years of human experience: if you are doing something I really hate, and then you stop doing it, I hate you less.

          If we only changed our support for Israel and did nothing else, would they (which I assume means those Arabs that now hate us) stop hating us?  Clearly no, since there are a lot of other things we do that they hate (occupying Iraq and propping up Mubarak and the Saudis are easy examples).  But it would certainly help.

          So in the end, you are at your fallback position: reducing hatred of the US isn't enough of a reason to change policy.  Fine, I won't argue your conclusion.  But I don't think it's tough for you to imagine that other people could see it as a reason to change policy.

          •  And I would argue (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, volleyboy1

            that C is far from obviously true, and is probably the most unconvincing argument. Whether you hate me for X or not has no bearing on whether I should do X. If X is the wrong thing to do, and you hate me for doing the wrong thing, then that is a different equation. If you want to make the argument that we deserve to be hated for supporting Israel and as such should change course, I find that far more respectable than "they hate us, so let's change."

            A, well, again, just ask them.  They only hate us for backing Israel if you believe them when they say they hate us for backing Israel.

            It's strange that we're not supposed to take Arab countries or entities at their word when they say they're going to destroy Israel, that they envision a Palestine from the river to the sea, or anything else that could conceivably be used as justification for military action by either the United States or Israel. Nor are we to do so when the families of the glorious martyrs wax poetically about the virgins that await their deceased shahid in the afterlife. But when they say, I hate the US for supporting Israel, then we're supposed to accept that on its face and alter our policy accordingly.

            B is the point.  Would us stopping the backing of Israel making them stop hating us.  This is a tricky business, of course.  It would certainly improve things to some extent.  I can not prove that of course, because it is a hypothetical future, but I base this on 30 years of human experience: if you are doing something I really hate, and then you stop doing it, I hate you less.

            And maybe they do hate us less as a result. Great. Let's say Israel hates us afterward (I don't know if they would or they wouldn't, but let's assume arguendo that they would). Do we then need to kind of support Israel but in a different way? I mean, since we're now in the business of appeasing whoever proclaims a hatred for us we must walk this delicate tightrope in some way, right?

            So in the end, you are at your fallback position: reducing hatred of the US isn't enough of a reason to change policy.  Fine, I won't argue your conclusion. But I don't think it's tough for you to imagine that other people could see it as a reason to change policy.

            People have myriad reasons for their policy preferences. I can certainly imagine this as a reason for some to change policy, but that doesn't mean I should find such a concept worthy of respect or serious consideration any more than I would a flat tax.

  •  Jesus Frakkin' Christ (10+ / 0-)

    The mayor added that forces further handed a warrant to Muhammad Abu Yousif, notifying him that his water reservoir would be demolished because of its close proximity to Area C, which is under full Israeli control.

    Water is a security threat?   Why tear down a water reserve..what useful purpose can there be?

    I mean really, WTF....

    •  i have a theory about that. (5+ / 0-)

      What if Palestinians decided to use these???

      water rocket

      Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

      by Tom J on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:35:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ha! (4+ / 0-)

        I was thinking of the squirt gun threat..or water balloons, a known security risk...

        Really, it is beyond ridiculous...and beyond shameful.

        So I take it that area C is now defacto Israel and anyone that is even near it will now be driven off...will there be a kind of empty zone...oh! and then will Israel move into that...what next...the next "too close" water reserves will have to be taken out, too...and on and on.

    •  What kind of security threat? (6+ / 0-)

      It's not! They are going for the whole thing. Water is a threat because people can live there. That is what they are doing.

      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:41:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well duh. :) (4+ / 0-)

        I was being snarky.

        So how to stop it now?  I mean NOW.

        •  Work with the Israelis trying to change things. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL, capelza

          Look, today news out of Israel - Labor is threatening to quit the coalition. Granted their credibility is in shambles but they would force a problem.... and without them the Government will go hard, hard right. Then it will come down to the opposition inside Israel.

          http://peacenow.org/ - click on the Shalom Achshav link by the peace flag.

          Here is the thing - no one will answer the questions I posed above but those are the "real" questions here. You want to end the occupation "NOW", unless there is regime change in Israel, or President Obama brings the hammer down - it won't happen. What you have to realize here is the Israelis are the ones who will end the Occupation. Now how are you going to get them to do that? That is the real question the rest is all rhetorical.

          "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 10:51:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Volley... (6+ / 0-)

            I know you are sincere, as you know I am...

            But the occupation was chugging along pretty much like this before this present Israeli government came into office.   It is an institutional issue in the country.

            Netanyahu and his admin have actually accelerated the process or at least been boneheaded enough to do things that get noticed more..but it has been going on for decades.

            Will getting rid of his government really halt this?

            I don't see the public outrage from the groups you mention..I mean the "for fuck's sake are you people out of your minds!!!" outrage that this kind of stuff deserves?

            You mentioned elsewhere that how can Israelis be expected to give up their country after 62 years?   How many more years will the Palestinians have to wait, seeing as that same 62 years has happened to them...how many more years, how much more loss of water and land can they take while "hearts and minds" action takes pace in committees and meetings and "action".

            I know you don't like it, but the correlation to what happened to American Indians is getting harder and harder to avoid.  I know you don't want to see it, but it is very. very much like this...

            I'd like to see Liberal Zionists screaming at the top of their lungs...fuck the right wing.  

            •  Thank you (5+ / 0-)

              That's the part I never understand in the Volleyplan.  Volley seems to endlessly demand that folks support the Israeli left wing (whatever you call it, liberal zionist, progressive zionist, whatever).  He never answers the question where that left wing has been for the last 40 years.  If the left has never had any influence, then why would that change now of all times, when any observer notes the left is fractured and decayed?  If the left has had influence in the past (which it certainly has) what came of those periods, and how come the Occupation and the expansion of settlements did not end then?

              Volley's plan of endlessly strengthening Israel (or the Israeli left) and making them more "confident" to give concessions has been tried for decades.  It is the standard American playbook.  But Volley never explains how doing the exact same thing is going to lead to a different result.

              I find it incredibly frustrating to see folks like Volley ignore all the history before this current Likud government.  It is as dishonest as people who scream about "Likudniks" no matter what government is actually in control of Israel at the time.  

              •  Here is the difference (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Captain C, Gatordiet

                Despite what you, or anyone else says the nature of Palestinian resistance is making the difference. I have explained this in the past. Foregoing violence has brought me around and I think it will bring others there.

                In the past despite the bullshit that passes here for history - now things have changed. Bi'lin, Ni'lin show that. The P.A. actually coming out and saying that Jews can live in their state in a Two-State solution. The marginalization of Hamas in polls. Salam Fayyad and his plan all make differences for us. The end of calls for the existential destruction of Israel - THAT is what is different.

                You don't understand or care to understand Israelis weasel so I expect you to blow this off in typical fashion. BUT I am telling you what I think would work. So of course to you we are "ignoring" history, but what you fail in is that you don't understand we are not ignoring history we are taking history - just a history that you don't accept into account.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 11:27:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Things have changed? (0+ / 0-)

                  What is your view of the period between the First Intifada and the Second?  Was the PA too violent in that period to allow a solution, was Hamas too dominant, or did we just fail to support the Israeli left enough?

                  •  Complicated there (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Captain C, Gatordiet

                    Rabin made strides as did the Palestinian side. I blame Ariel Sharon and the right wing for the change in the Israeli polity. The assasination of Rabin was a game changer because despite what people say here - he was changing and things were moving in a more positive direction.

                    I blame Israel for a fair amount of non-movement in the late 90's - though the suicide bombings in the mid 90's pretty much did their thing. The second intifada in my and many other opinions destroyed any good will that had built up.

                    The rise of Hizbollah and Hamas (helped in part by Israel in one of the more stunningly stupid moves of all time) had something to do with things.

                    But anyway, even if things didn't change (and I believe they have) - how do you propose to get what you want?

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 11:46:56 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What does that history suggest? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Terra Mystica

                      If the PA was non-violent, but nothing changed (except for an expansion of the settlements) over almost a decade when the left was usually in power, what does that say about your current plan of empowering the atrophied left?

                    •  I think it's safe to say... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      volleyboy1

                      I blame Israel for a fair amount of non-movement in the late 90's

                      ...that even before you take suicide bombings into account, the combination of Benny Net 1.0's deliberate foot-dragging, insincerity, and stalling with Arafat's corruption, double-talk, and inaction were large factors in things going to hell by 2001.

            •  capelza - you are a good person so.... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, Gatordiet

              I will say - I don't see correlations with the American Indians but that is because we see history differently - down to the actual occurance of events. But that is for a whole other diary.

              Yes, Getting rid of this government will help to get rid of this. At the same time, there has to be continued peaceful resistance from the Palestinians like Bi'lin and Ni'lin. HOWEVER.. this is only my opinion. I say this because I am sure I am about to be attacked by the usuals for suggesting strategy. Anyhow, that is my feeling.

              When Labor leaves the Gov't watch what happens because now they just set them up for the old parental trick - "If you threaten something, you better be able to back it up". They have little to no credibility left, if they threaten this and don't leave when their demands aren't met - they will have less voice than if Hamas ran in Israeli elections.

              "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 11:20:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think you are right about the politics... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Terra Mystica, unspeakable, Alec82

                However, my point is while all this politikin' and lobbying is going on at this glacial pace more and more water reserves and homes are being demolished... in the case I was screaming about, for the crime of being too close to Area C.  For these people losing everything, a bunch of people trying to change something from the top, it doesn't matter a hill of beans..they are still completely fucked over...how many more before some incremental change happens..they live and lose in the moment, not some grand plan that will take time.

                I think you all should work for change in the Israeli government, but why not at the same time shout to the rooftops that this kind of fucking bullshit must stop now...

                I am just not seeing it.   There should be outrage...not a playbook for top down change...and while this changes, one hopes, they are told to yet again behave and be patient.  It'll get fixed someday..maybe.

                •  Screaming from the rooftops is good (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Gatordiet

                  but when we are not screaming from the rooftops about the craziness on both sides then we are villanizing.

                  This bullshit has to stop right away - and those of us on the "Progressive Zionist" end are trying to end it but judging from the derision we are met with just here.....

                  Yesterday unspeakable and I were discussing Peace Now or Meretz in Alec's diary. He made the charge that those groups did not make a priority of Palestinian needs. I disagreed but he came back with "Well their No.1 priority is regarding Israeli security"... That got me thinking of a response (I figure he will see this here). Well, my response is: "OF COURSE THEY ARE" they are Israeli. Palestinian priorities are geared to Palestinians not Israelis, and that makes sense.

                  My focus is on Israeli well-being though I think the moral imperative of ending the occupation is critical in addition to the security imperative. Maybe that is why we all have an issue here? I don't know.

                  "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                  by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 11:59:51 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No.... (3+ / 0-)

                    It is not true that if one doesn't scream about the craziness of both sides one is villanising..

                    One side has the power to bulldoze water reserves, the other doesn't.    One side has the power to rip out thousands of olive trees, the other doesn't.   One side has the power to literally cut an old monastery/church complex in half, literally cutting through their walls to build the Wall, cutting the parishoners off from the church, as well as the church from part of it's own property...one side can "deport" a young Arab Christian university student from the West bank to Gaza...

                    What can the other side do?   Nothing, nada, zip...

                    The "side" that has the position of power needs to have it's supporters demand that this stuff is unacceptable.  And I am not talking about here at Kos, but the leaders and spokespeople of the Liberal Zionist groups need to do this...

                    Loudly.   It isn't villanising.  It's speaking from the position of the stronger speaking out for the weak that eat shit because of Israel.

                    •  Really (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Captain C, Gatordiet

                      you say this:

                      What can the other side do?   Nothing, nada, zip...

                      ummmm, actions made by the "weaker" parties in the past have led to a lot of this situation. NOT BLAMING THE VICTIMS - but at the same time blowing up Pizza places, buses, schools, Olympic teams, 8000 rockets into S'derot and the like have something to do with our feelings and actions. Though they don't justify the Occupation and the actions taken by government. So don't go there on this.

                      The Prog. Zionists aren't doing anything. Really? Didi Remez just got shot by rubber bullets. They demonstrate every week in Sheikh Jarrah and just got named as enemies by elements of the government. They risk jail and physical harm.

                      Settlement watch fights the occupation in courts on a daily basis. Not good enough for you? Then I don't know what to tell you.  

                      Not doing anything? Really? Just because we don't do what you think is right - don't frakkin' tell us we do nothing.

                      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                      by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:19:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  do you want an honest answer? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          livosh1, capelza, volleyboy1

          or one that will appease the I/P clique sensibilities? because if its the former, i think many of us have been arguing this for some time. people aren't really listening though.

          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 12:31:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not talking about the walled garden of Kos I/P (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Terra Mystica, canadian gal

            I'm talking about the leadership of the progressive Zionist groups...

            •  honestly... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              livosh1, volleyboy1, Gatordiet

              here is where i depart ways with volley. sadly progressive zionist groups currently have little influence both in and out of israel. like most populaces, the gooey center is where the real power lies. and in both instances, these groups are likewise growing tired of this ongoing conflict and seemingly are veering rightwards in terms of their political stake in the peace process.

              and i have been saying this again and again here, but very few listen or care for the idea, but israelis, jews and other zionist groups see things quite differently than the way the group, particularly many 'pro-p' posters, here do. both throughout history and now.

              take for example a recent poll of american jewish opinion. i have seen this discussed here unsurprisingly quite superficially, "oh my god - have you seen this? unbelievable" types of commentary. but there seems to be a total disregard for understanding, or trying to understand where these views stem from or finding ways to align these views with the outcomes we seek. instead often its something else entirely which i'll simply say lends credence to the term anti-israel. it seems many here seem to think israeli views are unimportant or not needed for the occupation to end when in fact its the exact opposite.

              i discussed this phenomena this morning a bit with nathan.

              so i guess what i am saying here is... if you want to facilitate change, perhaps its important to listen to those who have the power to change things rather than impose your viewpoints onto them.

              "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

              by canadian gal on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:03:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I completely disagree that this is happening. (5+ / 0-)

                Here is a comment of mine from just yesterday in which I cite the same poll you do.

                I certainly don't use it in a "oh my god - have you this? unbelievable" sort of way.

                I think it's incorrect to assume that people on the Palestinian side are ignoring Israel opinion. Just because we disagree with it and think it needs to be changed, doesn't mean we ignore it.

              •  I really feel (7+ / 0-)

                that we must live on separate planets. Dominant Israeli views are mainstream; they are reflected in the media and in US government policy. And per our discussion, they produced the "two state solution". Who is not listening to Israelis? On what planet are Israeli fears not being addressed? The planet of Dkos? I mean, this little meaningless space of the world which has little relevance? Is it so upsetting that people articulate a perspective not based on an appeal to the powerful but to the powerless?

                I really find this all just kind of absurd, I'm sorry. As you say, "listening to those who have power" is precisely what we should not be doing, because all they will say is that it's necessary for their boot to be on the neck of the powerless.

                •  i agree. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, Gatordiet

                  its unjust.

                  but only because we have reduced the parties to basic concepts like 'victim and victimizer' or 'powerful and powerless.' and when one or both of the parties in this conflict is reduced to such simple terms it stops being relevant, at least to those who care for consensus. since as i have repeated ad nauseum, that israelis and jews see things quite differently than say... you.

                  and its not meaningless here at kos in the sense that as peace-seekers. we have the power to discuss methods to bring about change to take into our lives in the real-world.

                  "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                  by canadian gal on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:31:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  there is (4+ / 0-)

                    a difference between seeing oneself as simply an advocate for achieving consensus and attempting to change the terms of the debate. I'm not interested in achieving consensus if that means abandoning basic human rights. I think that's always been fairly clear with my posts.

                    As for "basic concepts" like victim and victimizer, this conflict is in fact much more basic than most people think. It is not so hopelessly complex that we must shy away from language which describes which population gets white phosphorus dropped on them and must live in ghettos surrounded by tanks and apaches, and which population lives rather normal lives, punctuated at times by terrorist attacks (which are more and more rare) which do nothing to alter the strategic balance of power.

                    Things are pretty clear for those willing to take an honest look at reality and not make excuses for the state committing the lion's share of human rights abuses.

                    •  undoubtedly... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      volleyboy1, Gatordiet

                      nothing will result from this discussion, much like it didn't this morning. this is about seeking change is it not?

                      likely you'll get multiple uprates as if your 'reality' somehow is accurate and what i am saying is not, and then probably tonight and moving forward the diaries and comments will remain unchanged and we'll reargue the same thing again.

                      but i am speaking here frankly here in the hopes that someone will listen and hear the results of what i am postulating.

                      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                      by canadian gal on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:50:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I cannot reach (4+ / 0-)

                        people who "freeze up and get defensive" when confronted with the facts of the occupation and the realities of Palestinian dispossession.

                        In fact, what is striking to me is the different paths people take; that is, many Jews who have experienced such tremendous loss, instead of becoming defensive or retreating, instinctively identify with what has happened to Palestinians and act according to the sense of justice that they were historically denied.

                        I don't presume that anything I say has the power to convince people of what they do not want to be convinced of. As I said, the reality is there for people to see. Those who use the excuse that Israel is demonized (or whatever is the talking point of the week) to avoid addressing the obvious facts on the ground in a substantive way are not people I think can be engaged with in any meaningful way, as I find that argument self-absorbed and reactionary.

                        If this place has any effect on anything, I hope it is to sway some people, perhaps those who don't ever post and quietly linger, to the side of human rights for all. And if that results in alienating partisans of Israel who are uncomfortable with strong critiques of Israel, then so be it. They were not reachable in the first place.

                        •  precisely. (0+ / 0-)

                          and the net effect is exactly what i have said. that the israelis and jews, and  host of others who see things quite differently than you aren't on side.  but that's ok, i have yet to find any realistic answers here of how this group of peace-activists, palestinian-rights activists, or human-rights activists intend to achieve their aims without one party in the conflict being heard.

                          your position, i suppose is no surprise seeing as we had this conversation this morning. what is a startling to me, is that capelza apparently doesn't like the 'how' either.

                          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                          by canadian gal on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 04:51:37 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  I want gloves off - honest answers (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, Captain C, canadian gal

            see the ones I gave to weasel above. I think we need to just put shit out there on what we believe, and then judge from that. When we don't get answers I assume the worst because people shouldn't be afraid to be honest about reasonable answers.

            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

            by volleyboy1 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 12:40:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  During the Second Intifada ... (8+ / 0-)

      ... you could find in a lot of news accounts of Israeli occupation military actions references to water resources being destroyed, whether water mains destroyed under tank tracks or hospital water tanks shot up. It became difficult to believe that there was not some policy underlying it.

  •  Thanks, Tom J! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tom J, Alec82, Peacenick

    I like your sig line.

    "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

    by Rusty Pipes on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 01:13:00 PM PDT

  •  Thanks again, Tom! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unspeakable, Alec82, Peacenick

    You keep puttin' these up and I'll keep Recommending and Tipping them.

    Tipped and Recommended for bringing the TRUTH about the Occupation to the minds of Americans.  

    Why doesn't everybody rec these - do they not treasure the Truth?

    Celtic Merlin
    Carlinist

    Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

    by Celtic Merlin on Wed Apr 21, 2010 at 03:22:41 PM PDT

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