Today was an interesting day. An old friend of mine (not so sure after this exchange) posted the following comment on Facebook this morning:
I responded by pointing out that the President wasn't exactly shooting pool or lounging at a beach, but was in fact at another VA cemetery in Illinois to honor our fallen soldiers there.
Below the fold is the entire exchange, with names changed to nicknames that I thought were appropriate to the participants. No, the old buddy is not the real Jesse Ventura, but he's a lot like Jesse in attitude. Then there's Jesse's wife, and an old classmate I will call Church Lady.
Swampfoot: He's honoring the fallen at Abraham Lincoln National Cemetery in Illinois. Were you as annoyed about it when Reagan failed to visit Arlington on Memorial Day twice, and when Dubya failed to visit Arlington on Memorial Day 4 times?
Swampfoot: As usual, Snopes has the facts (http://bit.ly/9ZSGLn). Don't be taken in by Beck, Limbaugh, email smears, etc. Do your own research and thinking on this stuff. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!
Some Bystander #1: it was as irritating then since they werent destroying our country and freedoms
Some Bystander #2: Jesse, thank you for the posting. Please take a gander at my profile photo. The only one standing is a person in a wheel chair!!!
Jesse’s Wife: I read on yahoo that his schedule WAS to go to Hawaii but now has changed since there was so much hype about it.... our pres needs those ratings to go up! I think no matter what ya do.... do it thinking about our soldiers!
Church Lady: Thank you Jesse. It is sad our supposed Leader does not think he has to conform to tradition & respectfulness-he's above all that. We need to unite as a country in spite of him & carry on. This too shall pass, & hopefully we will overcome his deficiencies in the years to come. But for today, may God Bless & watch over America!
Swampfoot: Mrs. Ventura, I think everyone thinks about and appreciates our soldiers for doing the job they do. So was Dubya being disrespectful in 2007 when he lounged in Texas on Veteran's Day? When Reagan chose an economic summit in 1983 instead of our soldiers? When Bush Sr. stayed in Kennebunkport and played a round of golf in 1992?
And as much as a buffoon as Clinton was at times, he never missed visiting Arlington on Memorial Day in all his 8 years in office.
This whole issue is a farce and a distraction form honoring our fallen, as can be shown by the above examples.
Jesse Ventura: Just for the record, I don't watch Limbaugh or Beck....or any thing else for that matter. In fact, there is no TV at all in this home....its a waste. My research is not hearsay or bloated press. Regan's absence was for health and was never brought up until Obama followers started srceaming "see, he did it too"...on the internet. As for baby Bush, he left us with many dissappointments. Our right to complain about those and other disappointments was given to us by American soldiers. I wish we served our soldiers as well as they serve us. Supporting Obama cuz' it was the "trendy" thing to do was not a step in the direction of serving and honoring our servicemen. A vaca in Hawaii was not serving them well either.
Church Lady: It would be different, Swampy, if this was the only incident this president has refused to conform to. He is making a spectacle of our nation-no, I'm not going to cite my sources or list specific examples, all I have to do is poll my fellow American. He is not only spitting in our soldiers faces, but in America's as a whole. This has been a collasial error in America's judgement, but, for those of us who did NOT vote for him, all we can say is "told ya so". I just hope & PRAY God truly does bless us & watch over us & get us safely through this tumultous time.
Swampfoot: Church Lady, if you're not going to cite specific examples, then why should anyone listen to a thing you say on this matter, because all that translates into is an unwillingness to defend your assertion, and a tacit admission that you know it's nothing but hot air.
And hey, whatever happened to the "don't post such serious stuff on Facebook" movement? :-)
Some Bystander #3: As I said before----
One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America
Some Bystander #4: We know who voted for douchebama now !!!!!!!!
Swampfoot: Jesse, it's simple logic-
If you lay down the assertion that:
- Any president who fails to attend Memorial Day Services in Washington at Arlington National Cemetery is unpatriotic, America-hating, indifferent, distracted or just malicious...
- Then, you must apply this criticism equally, or you open yourself up to being criticized as a hypocrite.
It's a matter of public record that other Presidents have done the same thing you criticize the current President for (Reagan's 1983 absence was not for illness, by the way), and no one is saying you can't make that criticism, but there can be rhetorical consequences for that position if you don't apply it equally.
In fact, the reason for my pointing out the other presidents' actions was not to criticize them for it (no one in their right mind would think that George Bush Senior was unpatriotic), but to show that the whole argument is bullshit and a lot of right-wing masturbation that does nothing but feed your own prejudices. This subtlety seems to be lost on the lot of you.
Swampfoot: Plus, it's fairly unpatriotic and un-american to use a day like today for political attacks. This day should be focused on respect for our men and women in uniform, and those who have sacrificed everything to protect and defend us.
Church Lady: I don't have to cite examples or go to Snopes.com, or anything like that, for one, like I said, all I have to do is ask my fellow American what they THINK of our current administration. Second, I'm a Christian, & this administration scares me for biblical reasons. Third & foremost, my opinion is granted me by the constitution of the United States of AMERICA, whose freedom was won by the soldiers lying in Arlington. Thank you Kyle R., that about sums it up:)
Church Lady: And why do you have to call us names, Swampy? I dont see any other name calling on here.
Swampfoot: Please quote any name-calling I have done towards any of the participants, Church Lady.
Also, you're entitled to your own opinions, certainly, but not your own facts. I think you probably realize that if you try to operate on a factual basis in this discussion, you won't have much of a case, especially if both sides are brought in for examination.
Some Bystander #4: Come on fellow americans,lets remember our past, present hero"s that let us have this day off to be with loved one's and remember freedom is not free !!!!!!argue on another day today today is for hero's standing and fallen !!!!!!
Church Lady: The use of the words toward our opinions such as "hot air", "hypocrite", & "right wing masturbation". Was I surprised? No. And did I say or even imply that anyone has to listen to me? Nope. But I LIVE in this country, & I see on a daily basis how we are being torn apart due to the action & non-actions by this administration. There's my facts. Now excuse me while I retire from this meaningless thread as it has come to be (sorry Jesse, your inital post was well taken but has been taken over by meaningless point arguing. Sorry.)
Jesse’s Wife: I don't think I was attacking anyone Swampy..... hmmmm.... "I think no matter what ya do.... do it thinking about our soldiers" plus I think its great we can say what we want to say on any day... any holiday! We all have our opinions... God Bless you Swampy! Have an awesome day! :)
Swampfoot: Church Lady: those are what we call "words" and not name-calling by any definition of which I am aware. They're strong words, sure, but they are not calling anyone names. As for hypocrite, it was clear that I was showing a way that Jesse might be interpreted; I was not calling Jesse a hypocrite - because I know he's not.
Swampfoot: Thanks, Mrs. Ventura, it's certainly true and a great thing that we have the freedom to discuss vigorously without censorship of anyone's views. I hope you have a great day too!
Jesse Ventura: Swampy--Thank you for proving many of my points. Info from the net and snopes is useless, for all we know these experts you are posting links to could be a dude in a garage. Plus the info is always relayed with a spin. You've been quite the spin doc yourself this morning....never once did I say Obama was any of the things your last post referred to....that was your "spin". In fact, I thought Clinton was far from a bafoon. I thought he was a great President. I am neither left or right wing...I believe the wings shouldn't exist at all. Church Lady is right....no ammount of passion excuses name calling. As far as seriousness of posts on FB ....again, nice spin ya put on it. I said "don't take FB posts so serious" and you spun that into "don't put anything serious on Fb"....Don't sweat it though , its very natural for people to spin what others say to give their own babblings more credibility. This subtlety....has been lost on you. .
Church Lady: Also wanted to say Jesse, that is so cool that you have chosen to do without tv in your home. I greatly respect & admire that. Kinda wish my parents would have done that. Whatever your reason is for it, just wanted to give you & Mrs. Ventura thumbs up:)
Swampfoot: Jesse, only a worldview victimized by and immersed in propaganda would consider stating simple facts to be "spin."
Swampfoot: Also, "The absence of our president in Arlington Cemetery today is a slap our soldiers don't need." - you're saying, with a straight face, THAT'S not spin? Okay. Gotcha. Right.
Jesse Ventura: Again Swampy....thanks for proving my point. I am by far the least "emmersed" person in this thread and the only one that quotes myself instead of others. I don't stare at a TV or a computer for info....I listen and talk with fellow Americans. My posts and statements have been quite simple. Yet, the "fact" a spin was put on them is proven right in this thread. Imagine how this passion between parties unfolds in the bigger picture of politics. WE THE PEOPLE has turned into we the domocrats, we the republcans, we this and we that. All these "WE's" has created a whole lot of "THEY's" I'm sorry....but the facts are facts and your refernces to my particular posts were "spun". This is very common for Obama supporters(what few he has left) to spin simple statements into attacks so that they can attack and feel justified.
Some Bystander #4 and Mrs. Ventura--this is not a day to remember our soldiers....EVERYDAY is the day to remember our soldiers"
Swampfoot: Jesse, you seem to keep avoiding the fact that you were the very first to "spin" with the comment that started this thread. Why can't you just admit that?
Church Lady: Again, a thumbs up to you Jesse.
Jesse Ventura: Don't think it was a spin......it is a slap for our current or any President to not attend. I said I wished we served our soldiers better and thank you. Where's the spin? You obviously aggree to some point or ya would not have mentioned every other President to do so....in the past. BTW....Obama is the only one to do so during a time of multiple wars our soldiers are fighting for us. You stand alone in this thread......I admire that. But most Obama supporters stand alone these days. He was one who campaigned on change but every time he or his dwindling supporters arn't praised....they quote or point out past presidential blunders screaming "he did it too" Where's the change in that?....you upheld this Obama standard with merrit in this thread today.
I stand by my original post-----Thank you soldiers past ,future and present. I wish we served you better. The actions of our President today is a slap you don't deserve....no spin there....I just don't see it.
Swampfoot: Of course you don't see the inherent spin in such a statement, because your ideology prevents you from seeing the subject objectively. Not that I don't have my beefs with the current Prez on a variety of subjects, but this is neither the time nor place and to state them now would just sound like I was pandering to gain favor. That's never been my bag, as you know so well.
I pointed out the other presidents' actions to show the absurdity of your initial statement, not to criticize their actions. I used a "rhetorical tool." If, when you apply a theoretical standard equally across the board, it shows your position to be absurd, then the point is that maybe one ought to re-think that standard.
Jesse Ventura: BTW>>>Shortly after my original post a friend and I drove 60 miles to reposition a promo truck. The truck is now adorned with U.S. and Support Our Troops flags. I'm responding by Blackberry ......can't wait to read this thread when I get home......I'm a talkative guy.....but my actions speak louder than my words. Our soldiers actions speak louder than words. Our sitting President had some pretty speeches....too bad his actions don't speak louder than those words.
Jesse Ventura: You can use all the big words ya want Swampy.......I don't think in an idealogical manner. There is no theory that should be applied accross the board. Was it a slap for Bush and Regan to do so....you bet. Had I been on Facebook in 1983 I probably would have made the same post....but I was 13 and playin on motorcycles with you. You can call it a rhetorical tool or whatever ya want but its still an Obama supporter screaming "he did it too" ....you then went on to call everyone else's "rhetorical tools" masturbation. Don't take everything on that little screen in front of ya so serious. And above all.....if you think you can pinpoint my (or any one else's) ideals from a Facebook post......maybe you should look into how absurd that simple staement was
Jesse Ventura: Back home now......got some riders at SMXP.....Hope everyone has a great day and doesn't forget who gave us the right to do the things we do.....Thanx soldiers.
Swampfoot: Big words? Who gives a shit about big words? It's all about clarity, and what's clear to me is that you seem to think that the President attending Memorial Day services at a National VA Cemetery in Illinois is somehow "disrespectful" of our servicemen and women. Seriously, help me process that statement. Because it's hard to grasp how attending a service at a military cemetery could in any way be "a slap" to the troops. Explain it.
Unless you don't believe he's actually attending, and that the images being broadcast are holograms put out by the gummint or something - in that case there's no helping you. Here's the address in case you want to drive over and verify that this cemetery isn't in some guy's garage: http://bit.ly/...
Clearly you're not grasping the central point, that the fact that the other presidents did the very same thing is what shows your statement about his visit to a different military cemetery being "a slap" to be a crock, to use a smaller word.
Jesse Ventura: Swampy......The guy was goin to Hawaii until people who aggreed it was a slap spoke in numbers he could not ignore. You fell for the Obama trend and youi'll probably always believe he was a good choice....that's fine .....I won't. Obama supporters are the ones that are emmersed in propaganda....he is a trend, a fad and will be remembered as such. I have been honored 3 times in my life to stand in Arlington at the tomb of the unknown soldier. It is truly a sacred place like no other. The Memorial wreath placed on that sacred tomb is a traditional thank you to those who wrote a blank check to our military and cashed it with their lives. That tomb exists in Arlington....not Illinois or anywhere else. It is a slap to take that focus off Arlington on Memorial day. You are one man living in Canada that believes the "snopes" are usually right and anyone who disaggrees is misinformed or listening to "political masturbation". Look down ...and once in a while you might find you've been spanking the monkey too. For this or any other President to not place that wreath, on that tomb, on Memorial day is a slap....and that's not a crock....;)
Swampfoot: Jesse, what evidence do you have that he canceled a Hawaii trip at the last minute due to this mythical uproar? Because I can't find any source that claims this. Where did you hear it? Because I'd truly like to track it down and find if there's any truth in it.
You are basing your entire fake outrage on this idea, an idea that you can't even show any proof of. The fact that you have been shown that he's going to another national military cemetery has not altered your view of this - that, I'm afraid, makes you as ideological as anyone else. Let's go down the list:
1 - Claim that some outrage has happened based on something you heard or read somewhere, without verifying it independently with some other alternate sources - because you were predisposed to believe it.
2 - When evidence is shown that the story is not as you claimed, or certainly not as bad (if you want sources let me know, but you seem to be unimpressed with information that does not fit your pre-determined narrative), you go on trying to prop up your initial thesis. This makes me question your honesty in claiming to be a straight shooter, because that ain't the behavior of a straight shooter. A serious person admits when he is wrong or has been misled about something.
My choices are irrelevant to this point and a rather obvious attempt at distraction on your part, but hey, if it makes you feel better to point at me instead of addressing your own attempt at peddling bullshit (which deserved to be called out) then have at it. Take your shots. It'll be entertaining, I'm sure, because I am a person with no shortage of personal faults to choose from.
But it still won't change the fact that you were spinning from the start.
Jesse Ventura: You're right Swampy....I am peddling bullshit.....I am a hypocrit....your snopes are right....and Obama is a great guy who fully respected the troops and is an exceptional President....everyone on this thread, especially me owes you an apology......your info and eveidence is superior and I cannot even begin to spend that much time on the internet or any more time on this.
BTW.....my post from a couple weeks ago saying "don't take FB and the internet so serious" You know...the one you some how read as "don't put anything serious on the internet"......gotcha. I still stand by everything and this entire thread, especially your rantings on me and everyone who dare posted in disaggreement with you, is all the proof I need. You see, I really don't care if you or anyone else aggrees with me. It was my post...I stand by it.
Thank you soldiers......you deserve better than Obama.....you certainly deserve better than Swampy and I gave you today.
I'm done with this
Swampfoot: I'll take that as a "no" - you've got nothing on this mythical canceled Hawaii trip.
Snopes has a pretty impeccable reputation if you'd bother looking into it. They've busted myths on both sides many times. But you're not curious enough to find out, I guess.
So, I guess I'll be done too, then.
Jesse Ventura: Like I said Swampy....you're right....the snopes (I would never believe anything called snopes) are the end all tell all truth and if Swampfoot can't find eveidence on the internet...then it can't be true.....you are the judge, with the snopes as your jury....and I am guilty
Thanks soldiers.....you're efforts deserve better!
Swampfoot: You're being deliberately obtuse now, and just plain childish, Jesse. It feels like arguing with a ten year old. The point is, as if one has to keep saying it, that you can find things out on your own - don't take my word for any of this. You don't even seem interested in finding out for yourself. There are many sources for information, and if you can't trust something that comes outta "the internets" then you should look at the history of all kinds of media and the ridicule they were subjected to during their early adoption. Do you recall, since you were a journalism major, how you judge the credibility of sources? Try looking at a multitude of sources for any claim, and weigh them based on common sense and experience, and ultimately, how the claim fits with the evidence.
I think you know in your heart the slap comment was uncalled for, and just don't have the guts to admit it now, that seems pretty clear. We can all be stubborn at times.
Also, it's interesting to know that you seem to be implying that you think every dead soldier who's not in Arlington is not as worthy of Presidential attention. Because that's the bottom line of your position on the Abraham Lincoln cemetery visit.
Are the families of those fallen men and women in Illinois of any less value than the ones of those buried at Arlington? Don't they hurt every bit as much?
Trying to appeal to your common sense here, because I do think you have some left.
And that's how it ended. Nothing since.
Sometimes after these things I feel bad, but today was one of those days where I got hardly any sleep the night before, was in a pretty bad mood, and I just could not let the bullshit slide. I don't regret any of it.