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This diary is mostly about the smear campaign aimed at Helen Thomas and how right wing propaganda easily mixes with Israeli propaganda.  It is a story that people would label me as crazy if I didn't have the facts to back it up.  How could such a good natured woman have so many people denounce her without even knowing the effort that went into it?  How could so many people turn their backs on her even though she served her country in a way that most civilians never could?

This diary is about the demonetization of Helen Thomas.  It is also about the sickening diary I read earlier today calling me an "anti-semite" for defending her.  This diary, in the end, is about debunking the lies of this phony controversy.  It is about setting things straight to the reactionary mob that is a part of this blog that does nothing but tear things down.

Outrage: Part 1
The story starts on May 27th when Helen Thomas was at the white house.  She was interviewed for less then two minutes by a Rabbi David Nessenoff.  The video was then sent to YidWithLId which forwarded it to Breitbart.tv .  After that there was no stopping the right wing noise machine from painting a Hitler mustache on Helen Thomas.  The shocking video that Rabbi David Nessenoff revealed was this.

In which Helen Thompson says nothing out of the ordinary in regards what most democrats believe.  That the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land should end and that the settlers should get the hell out of the occupied territories and return to Poland, Germany, America, Or where ever they are from.  

A very reactionary group of individuals immediately took up these right wing talking points.  They did not ask for clarifications or context.  They just assumed what she meant was that she wanted to destroy Israel and it's people.  They twisted words that clearly showed her intention that she just wanted Israel out of Palestine, like most reality based people do, and conflated it with pure antisemitism because she mentioned Poland and Germany.  

These knee jerk reactionaries didn't even question the source, Rabbi David Nessenoff, who is a complete right winger who made racist videos.  So racist that he pulled most of them after his site started receiving traffic.  Luckily, one survived his almost face saving purge so you could all see who this man is.

The reactionaries at this site immediately denounced Helen Thomas even though the source was less then a minute in length and came from a bigot.  A bigot who distributed it liberally and rapidly to right wing sites. Soon it was on drudge and all the reactionaries where in a frenzy in denouncing her.  With such ridiculous claims that what she meant was antisemitic because Poland and Germany was some sort of Jew hating slur.  Which, when looked at rationally, is as ridiculous as Israelis and right wing liars claiming that Obama was Antisemitic because he took a phone call from BiBi with his shoes up. ( 1 )( 2 )  Now let's see what the "outrage" about Poland and Germany is before I head back to my main point.

Poland

Now let's get something straight about the evil that is Poland first.  Poland has around 20,000 to 100,000 Jewish citizens( 3 ).  Poland also protected many culturally important parts of Jewish history.  Some of the Jewish Synagogues and Jewish cemeteries where maintained or restored when they where under the direct control of a Polish government.  Since the main destroyers of Jewish culture in Poland was the Russian Empire, the Nazi Empire, and finally the USSR.( 4 )  The ties between Poland and Israel are very deep in such that Holocaust Museums are visited every year across Poland in the March of the living.( 5 )  Poland is also recognized by Yad Vashem as having the most righteous amongst the nations with nearly 27% being Polish.( 6 )  I don't understand the faux hatred against a nation that is one of the most historically and culturally rich Jewish nations of all time.  A nation in which many Jews still travel to , in my opinion, for deep spiritual and emotional reasons.

Germany

Now the second nation that was mentioned was Germany.  Yeah, they where pretty much antisemitic for a good long time.  Which culminated in one of the worst wars and multiple genocides in the history of man.  After the war the state was split in two.  While Western Germany was rebuilt, the eastern portion was forced to pay reparations to the soviets that crippled them.  The western state received a constitution that was far more superior.  While the eastern state received a nod and a wink by the USSR to continue low level antisemitism.( 7 )( 8 )  

Things, however, changed for the better once reunification was set into place.  Since the constitution and it's strict laws against antisemitism/racism were then used as the constitution for the reunified German nation.  The remaining Jews in the area where still few in numbers but things would change dramatically as reunification transformed German immigration policy.

The collapse of the Soviet Union sent a new Jewish migration to find better life chances outside of the failed state that was Russia at that moment.  Israel had supposedly taken in 1,000,000 new citizens from 1991 to 2001 and Sharon was looking to recruit more in the former USSR.( 9 )  But the way Sharon got elected backfired on his demographic plans.  People really didn't want to be in a country at constant war.

Between 2000-2003 around 220,000 Israelis joined the 550,000 Israeli diaspora around the world to live peacefully in more stable countries.( 10 )  It was so much a disaster that Sharon "leaked" a speech in 2004 to influence 600,000 French Jews to immigrate to Israel.  He said that French Jews faced the "wildest antisemitism" ever.( 11 )  The French Jewish community got pissed as well as the government so his plan failed.  During the same year, Sharon almost had a stroke when he learned that Germany had more Jewish immigrants that year then Israel.( 12 )  It was shocking to him that Israel, under his moderate Kadima, was second to the new and improved Germany.  So he did what he had to do and pressured the Germans into limiting their intake of former-Soviet Jews.( 13 )  

Poland and Germany are such terrible insults though.  Because... they seem to have a stronger historical and cultural bond to Poland and actually want to move to Germany these days.  What an insult...


Outrage: Part 2

Helen Thomas never mentioned Jew, Jewish, Judaism, ect.  The question, as you can see in the top of the page, was a bait and switch.  Here is the video and the full dialog.  

Rabi: Any comments on Israel?
Helen: Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.
Rabi: ohhhh, any better comments then that?
Helen: ha.. ha
Helen: Remember, these people are occupied, and it's their land.
Helen: And it's not German and it's not Poland.
Rabi: So where should they go?  What should they do?
Helen: They go home.
Rabi: Where's the home?
Helen: Poland.
Rabi: So the Jews...
Helen: Germany.
Rabi: You say Jews go back to Poland and Germany.
Helen: And - and America and everywhere else.

She has nothing to apologize for.  She first commented on Israel to stay out of Palestine.  Something many people who think the two state solution agree.  She also makes a comment related to the settlements and how they should go elsewhere.  Such as Poland, Germany, America, and other states like Israel itself.  

I also can't believe any person with a brain would believe the ending part regarding the holocaust.  Since the creation of Israel was in 1948.  There was no modern state of Israel before the Holocaust.

Which brings me along to the next part of the diary.

The Cowards, The Brave, and the Nuts.

A Canadian blog perfectly illustrates what happened next.( 14 )

Ari Fleischer, President George W. Bush's press secretary, led the call in an e-mail Friday to the Huffington Post saying Thomas' comments amount to "religious cleansing."

"She should lose her job over this," Fleischer wrote. "As someone who is Jewish, and as someone who worked with her and used to like her, I find this appalling."

But Lanny Davis, former special counsel to and White House spokesman for President Bill Clinton, went even further than Fleischer. He issued a statement on Sunday saying Thomas, "has showed herself to be an anti-Semitic bigot."

.....

Davis went on, "Her `Thomas` statement that Jews in Israel should leave Israel and go back to Poland or Germany is an ancient and well-known anti-Semitic stereotype of the Alien Jew not belonging in the 'land of Israel' -- one that began 2,600 years with the first tragic and violent diaspora of the Jews at the hands of the Romans," said Davis.

That Lanny Davis will just say any old lie.  But there is one more lie to add that is quite revealing.  Lanny Davis also said this.

Lanny Davis statement continued, "If she had asked all blacks to go back to Africa, what would White House Correspondents Association position be as to whether she deserved White House press room credentials -- much less a privileged honorary seat?"

Now I have seen that Lanny Davis bullshit talking point used quite frequently here.  I wondered where that came from.  Well, I got a digging to see where that talking point came from.  Low and behold I found it!


Wow, it's like they are using the same handbook or something.  So I got a digging again and I found the handbook.  It was The Israel Project 2009 dictionary by Frank Luntz! ( 15 )

   

"The single toughest issue" to defend among Americans generally and American Jews in particular is settlements, says the manual, and "hostility towards them and towards Israeli policy that appears to encourage settlement activity." [...]

   Similarly, TIP says the "best argument" for settlements is this: Since Arabs citizens of Israel "enjoy equal rights," telling Jews they can’t live in the Palestinian state "is a racist idea."

The only person in the MSM to stick up for Helen Thomas as well as show people that this was just a piece of propaganda meant to distract us was Laura Flanders.  What she did is something that is truly brave.  She called it like it was.

Now where is the coward in all of this?  Oh here he is.( 16 )

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama says he considers veteran White House correspondent Helen Thomas' remarks about Israel "offensive."

Asked during an interview with NBC about Thomas' comments urging Israel to get "out of Palestine," Obama said he believes those statements were "out of line." At the same time, he said he recognized Thomas' long service covering presidents dating back to John F. Kennedy.

He said it was a "shame" that her career has ended in controversy, but called Thomas' retirement announcement "the right decision."

There is your coward.

Originally posted to General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 08:57 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Well, this is liable to get interesting. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Knarfc
  •  I appreciate your posting this (15+ / 0-)

    Thanks for your work with it.

    "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

    by MsGrin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:05:02 PM PDT

  •  Your self-description is an apt one. (5+ / 0-)

    people would label me as crazy

  •  Classic Italian Lasagna (13+ / 0-)

    Ingredients
    Bechamel Sauce:
    5 tablespoons unsalted butter, plus 2 tablespoons for the lasagna
    1/2 cup all-purpose flour
    4 cups whole milk at room temperature
    Pinch freshly grated nutmeg
    1 1/2 cups tomato sauce, recipe follows
    Salt and white pepper
    1/4 cup extra-virgin olive oil
    1 pound ground chuck beef
    Salt and pepper
    1 1/2 pounds ricotta cheese
    3 large eggs
    1 pound lasagna sheets, cooked al dente
    2 packages (10 ounces each) frozen chopped spinach, thawed and squeezed dry
    3 cups shredded mozzarella
    1/4 cup freshly grated Parmesan
    Directions
    Preheat oven to 375 degrees F.

    Bechamel sauce:
    In a 2-quart pot, melt 5 tablespoons of butter over medium heat. When butter has completely melted, add the flour and whisk until smooth, about 2 minutes. Gradually add the milk, whisking constantly to prevent any lumps from forming. Continue to simmer and whisk over medium heat until the sauce is thick, smooth and creamy, about 10 minutes. The sauce should be thick enough to coat the back of wooden spoon. Remove from heat and add the nutmeg and tomato sauce. Stir until well combined and check for seasoning. Set aside and allow to cool completely.

    In a saute pan, heat extra-virgin olive oil. When almost smoking, add the ground beef and season with salt and pepper. Brown meat, breaking any large lumps, until it is no longer pink. Remove from heat and drain any excess fat. Set aside and allow to cool completely.

    In a medium sized bowl, thoroughly mix the ricotta and eggs. Season with salt and pepper. Set aside.

    Into the bottom of a 13 by 9-inch baking dish, spread 1/3 of the bechamel sauce. Arrange the pasta sheets side by side, covering the bottom of the baking dish. Evenly spread a layer of all the ricotta mixture and then a layer of all the spinach. Arrange another layer of pasta sheets and spread all the ground beef on top. Sprinkle 1/2 the mozzarella cheese on top of the beef. Spread another 1/3 of the bechamel sauce. Arrange the final layer of pasta sheets and top with remaining bechamel, mozzarella and Parmesan cheeses. Cut the remaining 2 tablespoons of butter into 1/4-inch cubes and top lasagna.

    Line a large baking sheet with aluminum foil. Place lasagna dish on top, cover and put on the middle rack of the oven and bake until top is bubbling, about 30 minutes. Remove cover and continue to bake for about 15 minutes.

    Simple Tomato Sauce:
    1/2 cup extra-virgin olive oil
    1 small onion, chopped
    2 cloves garlic, chopped
    1 stalk celery, chopped
    1 carrot, chopped
    Sea salt and freshly ground black pepper
    2 (32-ounce) cans crushed tomatoes
    2 dried bay leaves
    4 tablespoons unsalted butter, optional
    In a large casserole pot or Dutch over, heat oil over medium high heat. Add onion and garlic and saute until soft and translucent, about 5 to 10 minutes. Add celery and carrots and season with salt and pepper. Saute until all the vegetables are soft, about 5 to 10 minutes. Add tomatoes and bay leaves and simmer uncovered on low heat for 1 hour or until thick. Remove bay leaves and check for seasoning. If sauce still tastes acidic, add unsalted butter, 1 tablespoon at a time to round out the flavors.

    Add 1/2 the tomato sauce into the bowl of a food processor. Process until smooth. Continue with remaining tomato sauce.

    If not using all the sauce, allow it to cool completely and pour 1 to 2 cup portions into freezer plastic bags. This will freeze up to 6 months.

    •  18 citations and 5 videos (0+ / 0-)

      And you say that they are my facts?  Maybe you should go to each of those citations and complain to them that they are liars.

      I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

      by General Choomin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:00:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What she said was wrong, the specific (7+ / 0-)

    references to Poland and Germany were wrong, stupid, and so much more.  But this woman is 90, and this interview was done by Fox, with only selective bits released yesterday.  I don't know where this gets me, other than it feels wrong to all pile on  her.

    "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

    by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:11:27 PM PDT

  •  I have to say this changed my mind. (16+ / 0-)

    when I first heard the clip I immediately jumped to the conclusion that she was speaking of Israel, using Palestine the way a provocateur might to refer to the whole area.

    In context it seems clear she was talking of the settlements and the occupied territory (what would you say to Israel? get out of Palestine). And saying get the hell out...which makes a lot of sense.

    Thanks GC.

    "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:19:26 PM PDT

    •  I got accused of being an antisemite and 11 HRs (10+ / 0-)

      in fizziks' "You are an Antisemite" diary.  It was the reason I wrote this even if it is a bit mangled by diary standards.  But all those HRs and accusations are worth it if it helped you, or anyone else, see the issue clearer.

      I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

      by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:03:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well to be honest (5+ / 0-)

        you might have taken a deep breath before you wrote this. It's just as angry as his diary was, but I thought it was important to point out the facts of this quasi Rabbi and that was most important to me.

        We don't have to make excuses for what she said in pointing that out. She did say something hurtful, but she certainly won't be the last to do that.

        One think I do agree with: there were a number of cowards in the media.

        Can you explain your website to me?

        Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

        by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:12:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  SP: thing (0+ / 0-)

          Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

          by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:13:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Look at her reaction when he switches (6+ / 0-)

          from Israel to Jew.  Just look at it and say she wasn't humiliated and tricked into being pigeon holed.  She knew the camera person's intentions at that very second.  Both the video taper and his son where wearing yarmulkes at the time she met them.

          This was her speaking her mind on Israel in a civil discussion with self identified Jews who for their own reasons, decided to character assassinate a great American woman and patriot.

          Just look at the video at her reaction when he injects "Jews" into the conversation.  Just look how she reacts.

          I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

          by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:23:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I happy to think that Rabbi is a fraud (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, kafkananda, Christy1947

            and I'm sure he took advantage of her. Who the heck just walks up to someone and asks: :so, what do you think of Israel?"

            I mean c'mon this is like Acorn...I think the guy is a RW shill.

            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

            by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:27:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Keep digging (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thebluecrayon, canadian gal

            Both the video taper and his son where wearing yarmulkes at the time she met them.

            What the fuck is that supposed to have to do with anything?

            "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

            by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:40:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The rabbi said elsewhere he had two sons (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Knarfc

              with him, so garbed. I wondered immediately if a form of intimidation was involved, despite the location and it was an attack video in the Fox producer style O'Reilly had made famous. She's not a big lady and very old and the location of the camera was almost illogically close to her face.  

            •  It was a Jewish event at the whitehouse (0+ / 0-)

              The interviewer asked about Israel.  Why would Helen Thomas, a person who has been a speaker of truth to power over all these years, blurt out an antisemitic statement at a Jewish event at the whitehouse to Jews?

              It has to do with it because she wasn't talking about Jews.  She was talking about Israelis living in occupied territories need to go back to their home.  Irregardless if it is Germany, Poland, America, or anywhere else including Israel proper.

              Even her Apology acknowledges that she wasn't talking about Jews.  It was specifically talking about Israel and Palestine.

              I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

              by General Choomin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:09:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not following you here, (0+ / 0-)

            in these parts.

            Just look at the video at her reaction when he injects "Jews" into the conversation.  Just look how she reacts.

            She knew the camera person's intentions at that very second.  

            I think many, many people conflat or confuse Israel with the Jews, and Israel with Palestine. Or, to put it a different way and more to the point, some people think Israel = the Jews, some don't. Some people think Israel = Palestine, some don't.

            So, for me at least, conversations like in this interview are essentially meaningless unless during their course it is explained how these terms are understood by the various parties to it. And for that reason (the meaninglessness of it), I don't come out with an opinion to the intent of the parties involved, although the manner in which the (obviously controversial) topic is discussed is clearly offensive.

            The destination and the effects, intentional or not, of these types of conversations is not understanding, it is conflict.

          •  She didn't say (0+ / 0-)

            settlers go back to Tel Aviv.  She said "they" should go back to Poland and Germany.  Whether she meant "Jews" or "Israelis", settlers or habitants of undisputed-internationally-recognized Israeli territory, the message was racist, anti-semitic and hurtful.

      •  in the future I would (7+ / 0-)

        avoid the dissertation on Poland and Germany...not helpful and IMO misrepresents the situation.  She was an idiot to say what she said, at the very least it was impolitic even if she is not guilty of the larger evil.

        "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

        by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:18:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, of course. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SteveP

          And many are playing word association here. The real question is why did Poland and Germany pop into Helen's mind?

          One ought not assume. One ought ask Helen to explain.

          If Helen is an idiot, she's an 89 year old idiot. And she's somehow lost her village.

          •  yeah (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Knarfc

            and I think it would have been a stronger diary had it acknowledged that and instead focused on why the witch hunt before those questions were asked/answered. But as Dick Cheney said...or was it Rumsfeld?  We have to work with the "scandal" we have, not the one we wish we had.

            "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

            by SteveP on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:07:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I thought it would provide extra dept (0+ / 0-)

              I was wrong and it was just used as an excuse to attack me.  As well as to troll me.  I just didn't understand why modern Germany and modern Poland, which the video author used to insinuate are antisemitic slurs in themselves, was accurate.  

              You are right though.  Adding in those two countries left me open to frivolous attacks from the reactionaries on this site.  No matter that I including citations to those specific portions.

              I guess I should of just exposed the Rabbi and the rightwing pile up instead.  But I guess I felt I needed to address the video in it's entirety.

              I learned my lesson.  It's best to do a targeted piece of writing on a specific aspect of the video then to try to address it all.  Since addressing it all leaves ones argument spread too thin so that reactionaries can attack it.

              Thanks for the advice.

              I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

              by General Choomin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 07:21:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I knew a guy named Thomas Helen. (14+ / 0-)

    He said he thought all the Irish in America should go back to Ireland.

    I told him to fuck off.

    I hope we don't get a few dozen diaries on here supporting that numbnutz, Thomas Helen.

    He was an idiot.

  •  so Obama's the coward?? are people reading (8+ / 0-)

    the concluding paragraph, I gotta wonder! anyhoo, why don't these genre of diaries ever blame her employer? too easy, I guess.

    "We're Screwed!" (me)

    by PhillyGal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:21:42 PM PDT

    •  maybe because they fired her? (0+ / 0-)

      just sayin'

      "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

      by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:22:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She worked for the WH? (5+ / 0-)

        Who knew?

        John Boehner thinks of himself as Ceasar. How about we change his name to Orange Julius?

        by second gen on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:24:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you said bosses, perhaps I misunderstood n/t (0+ / 0-)

          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:28:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't say anything, PhillyGal did. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MKSinSA

            And PhillyGal didn't say bosses, she said "her employer", who happened to be Hearst Publications, NOT the WH.

            John Boehner thinks of himself as Ceasar. How about we change his name to Orange Julius?

            by second gen on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:32:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  right, and Hearst fired her (0+ / 0-)

              thus no rush to condemn Hearst.  Sorry for the confusion as to Philly Gal's authorship.

              why don't these genre of diaries ever blame her employer?

              maybe because they fired her?

              Right, am I being denser than usual, this seems clear. No one is blasting Hearst, because Hearst fired her, post haste.

              "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

              by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:44:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think you're misreading PhillyGal's point. (0+ / 0-)

                I think PhillyGal's point is that these diaries that DEFEND Helen Thomas never seem to blame her employer (Hearst) for firing her. They only blame the people who are trashing Helen over her comments.

                You're contending, or so it seems, that no one is blaming Hearst for her comments, because they fired her immediately.

                Two different thoughts.

                John Boehner thinks of himself as Ceasar. How about we change his name to Orange Julius?

                by second gen on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:17:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Didn't she resign? (0+ / 0-)

                  She probably would have been fired, but she either resigned on her own or was convinced to...who knows?

                  Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                  by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:20:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yes, she 'retired' (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    valadon

                    Hearst said this after the comments and before the retirement:

                    We deeply regret Helen Thomas' remarks, which in no way reflect the views of Hearst Newspapers or its employees. Helen has expressed her own profound regret over the incident.

                    Asked again whether Hearst would keep her, Luthringer refused to go beyond this statement.

                    I was interpolating...I imagine she was given the opportunity to fall on her sword.

                    "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                    by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:23:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  OK, I guess (0+ / 0-)

                  I didn't read it that way. That makes sense.

                  "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                  by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:21:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  You are full of shit (13+ / 1-)

    She also makes a comment related to the settlements and how they should go elsewhere.  Such as Poland, Germany, America, and other states like Israel itself.

    She did not say that. The "FACT" you are searching for just does not exist.

    You, sir, are a liar.

    Enough with diarists trying to untwist her hateful words into something she did not say. Her words, and meaning were clear. The Right Wing did not put the words into her mouth or make her say them.

    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

    by dhonig on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:28:07 PM PDT

    •  so what is your interpretation of (15+ / 0-)

      Q: Any comments on Israel?
      A: Get the hell out of Palestine

      The fact is she didn't tell Jews to get out of Israel. She didn't tell Israel to get out of the Middle East.  She told Israel to get out of Palestine.

      Remember, these people are occupied, and it's their land.

      If you want to say it is ambiguous, I can't object. If you want to say it is impolitic I am right with you (regardless of the interpretation).  But It seems to say, literally, what the diarist says.

      "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

      by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:41:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She said they should go back to Germany (4+ / 0-)

        That's pretty up there on the offensive scale.

        "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

        by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:45:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No she said they should go "home" (6+ / 0-)

          and I believe clearly in reference to the settlers.

          I am perfectly willing to admit the ambiguity of it. Also the impolitic nature of the statement and on top of that the "go home" bit is the language and tool of bigots. But I don't think it is a fair characterization to say that Israel as an entity should go back and face the ovens as some people seem to portray this.  

          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:49:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  She did say "home". (0+ / 0-)

            I have no idea in reference to which people. It's just not clear what she meant. Other than some people were not at their "home".

            She also said, "Remember, these people are 'occupied' ". I think that means the people who were not at "home" were in a place where other people were "occupied". Helen could be talking about settlers, or soldiers (they normally do occupations), or settler-soldiers. Occupations are normally temporary, but in any case it's all semantics.

      •  Bullshit (10+ / 0-)

        Her use of "Palestine" was not the West Bank and Gaza, it was the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. It was clear in her usage. There was nothing ambiguous about it, not when you add in the "Germany and Poland" to it. Today's settlers aren't coming from Germany and Poland. The influx of Jews from Germany and Poland came post WWII, as Holocaust survivors.

        It quite clearly does NOT say, "literally," what the diarist says. The diarist is a full of shit apologist for hate, and you seem, for reasons I simply cannot fathom, to fully support it.

        Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

        by dhonig on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:49:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't fully support it (8+ / 0-)

          But where you see "the Mediterranean to the Jordan River" (where?) I do not see it and the following sentence about "occupied" seems, to a person in her position, to be pretty unequivocally the occupied territories.

          It's perfectly possible that's what she meant I suppose, but literally, that is not what she said.

          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:53:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Again, bullshit (8+ / 0-)

            Based upon her "go home to Germany and Poland," there is no doubt for anybody being intellectually honest that she was referring to the whole enchilada. Otherwise, she would be telling people to go home to Israel.

            Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

            by dhonig on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:57:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  that's your opinion (6+ / 0-)

              and not an objective fact.  Many of the illegal settlements are made by recent emigres to Israel herself from all kinds of places (admittedly not many from Germany and Poland), but I can't speak to her knowledge of that, nor I suspect can you.  You are interpolating and then trying to claim it as objective fact.

              I am perfectly willing to say that my revised opinion is, although based on the literal remarks and not some "implication" a subjective one.

              "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

              by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:01:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You want literal interpretation? (9+ / 0-)

                she wasn't asked about the West Bank or Gaza, she was asked about "Israel," and it was to that question that she responded "they should go home."

                Sorry, twist the words as hard as you want, but she said what she said.

                Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

                by dhonig on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:03:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  re-read it, jeez (11+ / 0-)

                  get out of Palestine..not get out of Israel.

                  Do you not understand plain English? And do you really not recognize how you are injecting your own opinion on top of the literal meaning? Really?  I'm not twisting the words, she said "get out of Palestine" They are occupied, the land is theirs" the only land that is occupied is WB and Gaza (more or less). You have the Mediterranean, the Jordan River and God only knows what else injected into that.

                  "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                  by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:09:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The land was called Palestine before 1948 (6+ / 0-)

                    I have to assume you're a bit younger than Helen Thomas. But all of the land where Israel now exists was called Palestine before Israel was established. So I could easily see that she was referring to Israel itself as occupying Palestinian land. If she was talking only about the recent occupation, she would have said go back to Israel. But to say go back to Germany, Poland, US, it seems pretty clear that she's talking about the original establishment of Israel.

                    "I was actually born on Krypton and sent here by my father Jor-El to save the Planet Earth."

                    by lesliet on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:23:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Dear Leslie (4+ / 0-)

                      thank you, I am fully aware of the history there all the way back to theories of "Sea People" and the Philistines.

                      You "could easily see" sure, I could easily see that too. or the other way around. It's ambiguous. Thomas surely knows as perhpas you are too young to know ;-) that UN181 which is the primary document that established the legal rationale for Israel's right to exist in International Law, specifically mandates an Arab state in many of the same places that constitute the occupied territories now.  So when someone say, what do you have to say About Israel, they should get out of Palestine would mean..well..what it means which  she says in the very next sentence and that is, they are occupied, get of their land. Their land, as you may or may not know but Helen Thomas probably knows is the occupied territories or if you prefer the borders specified in UN 181, UN 194 and so on.

                      I'm not saying you couldn't reasonably come to the conclusion you prefer, what I am saying is literally, that's not what she said. And absent some other evidence here I am not going to condemn a person for a statement no matter how impolitic because some people choose to put a whole superstructure of a belief system over it to change the literal meaning, no matter how reasonable that might seem.

                      I am uncomfortable with the Poland and Germany thing as well, but in an off the cuff remark to someone she clearly thought to be someone not serious, I can see people using shorthand or not talking about, well there's a big population of Russian emigres who make up a certain portion of the WB squatters and they came directly to the WB based on these land grab programs (subsidized by the Israeli Govt). and maybe they out to be sent back to wherever they came from.

                      I have made unserious responses to people that I have thought weren't serious myself much as, perhaps, you did when you stated that I wasn't old enough to know that:

                      But all of the land where Israel now exists was called Palestine before Israel was established.

                      Which by the way it was not, you're probably too young to remember the 1967 war ;-) and it's also inaccurate to equate Israel with what was Palestine because that implies that even the borders under 181are void and it is all Israel.

                      "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                      by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:39:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You seem to think I have an agenda (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        SteveP

                        I don't. I would much rather believe in your interpretation. But that just isn't the way I hear it.

                        "I was actually born on Krypton and sent here by my father Jor-El to save the Planet Earth."

                        by lesliet on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:15:40 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  absolutely, but this is key... (0+ / 0-)

                          But that just isn't the way I hear it.

                          Is it just to deride an individual based on something that devolves to "the way I hear it?" as opposed to literally what was said?

                          I don't think you have an agenda (some others here pretty obviously do), I think the question here is largely the way the media has portrayed this has put the other interpretation into people's minds and thus they see it that way, particularly if they are disposed to be defensive about possible anti-Semitism. I certainly did when I first heard the clip.

                          She's being made a whipping boy and there's just not enough there, I submit, to justify that. Impolitic? Of course.  Opprobrious? Probably either way. Drummed out of a job, reputation ruined and made a poster girl for the "liberal" "anti-semitism?" Seems pretty thin gruel for that meal.

                          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                          by SteveP on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 11:53:22 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  In many countries of the world, (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    CTPatriot, Rabbithead, SteveP

                    including Europe, Israel is also referred to as Palestine.  I think she was saying what she was saying.  I also don't think she meant anything by the reference to Germany or Poland, even though it sounded really, really bad.  So I guess I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and taking it away as well.  At the end of the day, big picture, this woman has given a great deal to this country, she is old, she had a Fox camera stuck in her face, and we should cut her some slack and remember her career for its many successes, methinks.

                    "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

                    by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:31:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  perhaps... (6+ / 0-)

                      its worth considering why it 'sounded really, really bad' a bit longer : )

                      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                      by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:35:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Because she is 90 and had a Fox camera (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        valadon, kafkananda, SteveP

                        stuck in her face, and she has a problem with people being forcibly removed from their homes so that other people can be given those homes because completely other people who have nothing to do with that part of the world feel bad about what they allowed to happen, and she was clumsy in how she stated it, and got pwned by the Fox people on the, "where should they go?" comment.

                        Consider it considered.

                        "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

                        by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:39:39 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  ah clumsy... (0+ / 0-)

                          i get it now.

                          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                          by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:44:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Nothing wrong with her opinion, (0+ / 0-)

                            it is her opinion, and she reports the news, she doesn't make it.  And she has done a great job at reporting it for decades.

                            If there is something more that you have to say, then please, say it, especially if you would like to accuse me of something.  I had family in camps, and you suck.

                            "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

                            by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:49:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

                            who said anything about you?

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:51:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

                            The "ah clumsy" comment could be seen as having been directed at me for describing what she said as clumsy.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it was, because what else, really, could be the point of that comment?  But whatever.  Canadians, eh?

                            Anyway, now that I have established myself as a child of survivors, like that should even be necessary, yes, I think that what she said was clumsy.  I get her point, it was clumsily made, and she was manipulated in I think a very Foxian way so that they could get their quote.

                            "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

                            by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:59:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i am sorry... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DrJeremy, louisprandtl, thebluecrayon

                            both that your family had to endure what it did and that you felt somehow that my characterization of your comment was anything other than it was.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:03:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you. I appreciate that comment. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            canadian gal

                            "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

                            by DrJeremy on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 09:18:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Jeremy she coulda just said back to Israel (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          thebluecrayon, canadian gal

                          she probably would still have a job today if she had.  

                          "persona non grata" yet again

                          by KnotIookin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:53:45 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  "had a Fox camera stuck in her face" (0+ / 0-)

                          Regardless of whether it was a Fox camera, the whole interview was rude based on the camera being so close to her face (if in fact it was as we seem to think).

                          That by it's very nature should invalidate the interview. There was a certain amount of intimidation involved, I believe. Was this an interview or an interrogation?

                •  I have two videos (0+ / 0-)

                  and A freaking transcript of the conversation up.  Why don't you watch them or read it instead of jerking your knee around my diary.

                  I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                  by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:16:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, she also told them to go (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              valadon, Brecht, CTPatriot, Rabbithead, SteveP

              home to America, or where ever else they came from.  So, although some of your points are spot on, this particular one is not.  Also, her whole point is that very few Israelis are actually "from" Israel, in the sense that their families have lived there for generations.  So how could they go home to there?

              "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

              by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:36:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the final ironic bit (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CTPatriot

                Israel only turned politically right when the Jews descended from middle-eastern countries became the majority.

                I bet not many people here are aware that the children of the Sephardem are the larger of Israeli population.

                fact does not require fiction for balance

                by mollyd on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:28:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  This comment is worthy of elaboration. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  canadian gal

                  If only for clarification.

                  •  elaboration Conservative Sephardic influence (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mas Gaviota, Knarfc

                    By the early 1970s, Jews of Sephardic origin (popularly referred to in Israel as Oriental Jews) outnumbered their Ashkenazic counterparts as a demographic group. The older Sephardim were, in general, from politically authoritarian and religiously traditional North African and Middle Eastern societies that regarded the Central European and West European secular and social democratic political value spectrum as too modern and far-reaching as compared to their own. They were accustomed to strong authoritarian leaders rather than ideals emphasizing social democratic collectivism and popular sovereignty. Nonetheless, a sizable proportion of Sephardim joined Labor's ranks both as leaders and rank-and-file party members.

                    Oriental Jews came to be referred to in the 1960s as "the Second Israel"--the numerically larger but socially, culturally, economically, and politically disadvantaged half of the nation. Not all Orientals were economically deprived, but nearly all of those who were relatively poor belonged to Sephardic communities. The communal gap and attendant tensions between Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have naturally engaged the remedial efforts of successive governments, but results have fallen far short of Oriental expectations. The problem was partly rooted in the country's political institutions and processes. Ashkenazic dominance of sociopolitical and economic life had been firmly institutionalized before independence. Over the years, however, Sephardic representation substantially increased in the country's major political parties, and as of the 1980s, Sephardic Jews occupied leadership positions in many municipalities.

                    Not surprisingly, beginning in the 1950s, most Sephardim tended to vote against Mapai and its successor, Labor. Both were perceived as representing the Ashkenazic establishment, even though Sephardim were always represented among the ranks of party leaders. In the 1950s and early 1960s, while many Sephardim were impressed with Ben-Gurion's charismatic and authoritative leadership, they nevertheless tended to support Herut, the major opposition party led by Menachem Begin, whose right-wing populism and ultranationalist, anti-Arab national security posture appealed to them. Paradoxically, the socialist-inspired social welfare system, a system built by Mapai and sustained by Labor and the Labor-dominated Histadrut, benefited the Sephardim particularly. In general, the Sephardim tended to support the right-wing Gahal/Likud blocs that for years had advocated a substantial modification of the welfare system so as to decrease its socialist emphasis. In terms of long-range electoral trends, the Sephardic position did not augur well for the Labor Zionist elite of the Labor Party. http://countrystudies.us/...

                    fact does not require fiction for balance

                    by mollyd on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 09:09:54 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Or America and elsewhere. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CTPatriot

              You forgot that part because you don't care to tell the whole truth.  I guess, to you, Israel isn't elsewhere when talking about occupied Palestine .

              I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

              by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:14:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Why didnt she just say they should go home to (2+ / 0-)

          Israel?  

          that she said they should go home to Germany and Poland and America kinda sounded like she doesnt believe Jews should be in the middle east..and that is the offensive part.  

          Some are offended, some arent.  I guess it depends on what you personally believe.

          Me, I believe everyone involved should get their F'in act together and put this centuries old semetic hatfield and McCoy fued to rest already but I do not agree with the belief that Jews should leave the Middle East and go back to Eastern Europe and America.. I kinda find that a bit offensive.

          "persona non grata" yet again

          by KnotIookin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:51:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hate to say it, but I don't think she (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valadon, fizziks, SteveP, Alec82

        was talking about settlements, I think she was talking about Israel when she said Palestine.  Her point was that land was taken from people who had lived there for generations by people who hadn't.  If she had just not mentioned Poland and Germany, it's not clear that anyone would have paid that much attention.

        "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

        by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:26:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It could be (0+ / 0-)

          but I don;t think it is clear enough either way to condemn her for it.

          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:41:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not clear enough to condemn her for it? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thebluecrayon

            We can argue whether she meant the Occupied Territories or the entire state of Israel (I'll state here I took her statement as referencing the entire state), but the  entire statement... go back home, to Germany, to Poland..  all of that, certainly was a statement worthy of condemnation, and certainly was a statement that should have pulled her off the front row in the press room.

        •  Just watch the video. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CTPatriot

          See how she reacts when the interviewer turns Israeli around to Jew.  She shakes her head and is sorta caught off guard at what the interviewer is insinuating what she meant.  It is a look of controlled terror that her words will be used against her.  But that is just my opinion.  

          The interviewer did use her words against her with that holocaust message at the end.  Even though it is factually incorrect in it's time line of events in regards to the creation/existence of Israel.

          I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

          by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:27:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Palestinian ethnic cleansing (12+ / 0-)
    No one took exception when Armey called for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/...

    Rep. ARMEY: "I happened to believe that the Palestinians should leave."

    •  Well no of course not (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Terra Mystica

      What difference could it possibly make if an elected official held such views, as opposed to a journalist? A legislator can only influence legislation; a journalist can question foreign policy and might give us an even handed view of US policy in the Middle East, Israel included.  Clearly the latter is far more dangerous and an existential threat.  

      Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

      by Alec82 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 05:50:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Congratualtions! (6+ / 0-)

    You've written the stupidest diary ever.

  •  Um...it's not a fact that she's nice. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, RedPencil

    Even Bill Press, who is the closest to supporting her of anyone in the media, says she's a grouchy old lady. He didn't think she should resign, and he said he'd miss her, but she's not a candidate for charmer of the year by any stretch of the imagination.

    On Sara Palin: "That woman...is an Idiot." -- Keith Olbermann

    by allergywoman on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:35:51 PM PDT

  •  the troll is strong in this one. (9+ / 0-)

    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

    by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:38:15 PM PDT

    •  I think you ought to look up "troll" (11+ / 0-)

      I do not think it means what you think it does...which seems to be, I disagree.

      "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

      by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:46:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You should see a website this diarist (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fizziks, louisprandtl, canadian gal

        promotes on their profile.  It's extremely racist.  The diarist claims it's a joke, but follows it like it's manual, especially when it comes to antisemitism.  This diarist is an antisemitic troll.

        "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

        by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:53:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll take a look, care to tell me which site? (0+ / 0-)

          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 09:54:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Click on their name. (6+ / 0-)

            http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

            The site could be humorous, if I hadn't found it after this diarist went through every offensive thing it listed it was possible to say to a member of a minority group.  The diarist uses the site like a manual on how to offend Jews.

            "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

            by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:02:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  please, of course it is a humourous site (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kafkananda, simone daud

              maybe it is not your brand of humour or mine, but still.

              "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

              by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:04:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I wouldn't mind, and I'd find it funny (6+ / 0-)

                Hell I think I did find it funny, but when that's promoted by someone who claims there's no such thing as antisemitism in America, and anyone who's offended by antisemitism (including people painting swastikas on synagogues) is oversensitive, I doubt it was meant in good humor.

                "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:11:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I can't speak to that. (0+ / 0-)

                  don't know this person well enough to look into his heart. And I am willing to give people quite a bit of leeway on their remarks in these threads because things get heated.

                  "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                  by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:42:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Cite the comment I said in which I said (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CTPatriot, kafkananda

                  No antisemitism exists.  In which I declare to the world that absolutely no type of antisemitism exists in the USA.  QUOTE IT AND LINK IT.

                  I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                  by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:30:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  hey remember that time... (4+ / 0-)

              when he diminished hate crimes against jews?!?!

              "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

              by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:05:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  All too well (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Red Sox, louisprandtl, canadian gal

                That's what I'm referring to.

                "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:07:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I see we have history here? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CTPatriot, simone daud

                  but so far, in this diary it seems like the only thing you have is disagreement. I am sorry, but that's what it seems like.

                  "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                  by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:11:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  If you are a true progressive, and somebody (0+ / 0-)

                    you thought was on your side fighting for you, and you admired for that, all of a sudden does or says something really awful and lets you down, wouldn't you feel disappointed about it? Wouldn't you be a little sad?

                    Do you see any note of disappointment or regret in the language of those you are arguing with? I don't. I detect a sort of glee in those posts - like this awful incident is what they were hoping for all along.

                    The well-known phenomena of psychological projection and confirmation bias account for 198% of conservative so-called 'ideas'

                    by power2truth on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:05:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Missed that. (3+ / 0-)

                If you can find it, post a link.

                I think it would be helpful to look at the diarist's history in light of this trainwreck tonight.

                •  blech... (5+ / 0-)

                  "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                  by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:24:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Revolting. Hope the upraters are happy (4+ / 0-)

                    defending the person who wrote those comments and that Poland has been some Jew-friendly paradise.

                  •  but seriously (0+ / 0-)

                    he's not denying anti-semitism there right?  that 40 or even 1000 events doesn't meet his definition of "rampant." I don't know that I agree with that, but you go to places like Germany or France and Poland and these things happen all the time - it's beastly. I think gentile America has a problem with how it feels about the Jewish community, but it wouldn't be invalid to say that in comparison with most European communities, active anti-semitism is not as "rampant."

                    "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                    by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:49:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's hate crimes reported to the FBI (4+ / 0-)

                      There are defiantly more antisemitic incidents in the US, that aren't reported to police, or can't be verified as hate crimes.  Next he didn't say "compared to Europe, that's not rampant" he said talking about hate crimes against Jews was...

                      "Making a mountain out of a molehill to benefit your own causes."
                      comment

                      Truly despicable.

                      "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                      by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:10:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I truly understand what you are saying (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        CTPatriot, simone daud

                        And I fully realize you aren't going to hear what I am saying now.

                        You were baiting each other. He wasn't referring to Jews making a mountain out of a molehill, he was, immoderately, saying you were.

                        I think there's a responsibility of both sides in a discussion (or argument if you prefer), the person writing a comment has to take positives steps to make himself or herself understood, and I think also the listener has a positive obligation to try to understand what is being said even if they disagree with it.

                        If Choobin is saying "Hey look at these statistics, they say that there are 350 people in these complaints and that's not a hill of beans in country the size of the United States," I think he's trivializing the problem, but it's not really a factually incorrect thing to say - even if you make allowance for 8unreported crimes. I brought up Europe just by contrast to illustrate that it would be a reasonable position for someone to say, hey this is really not so much considering how poorly other countries do. That doesn't mean I agree with it, but it's not egregiously wrong or being a troll.  

                        And I think you as a reader have to look at what the guy is saying and try to understand what he is trying to get across. Disagree with him all you want, but he wasn;t denying the existence of anti-semitism nor was he saying the construction you imply above "he said talking about hate crimes against Jews was...."  No, he said you were like the fucked up ADLers and were making a mountain out of a molehill of what he considers to be small FBI number for your purposes.

                        Convict him for that and I am right behind you. But at least step back and say, hey he wasn't trying to deny anti-semitism, he's just talking about degrees and then blast him for trivializing it.

                        "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                        by SteveP on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:57:20 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  In light of the humor site on their profile (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          thebluecrayon, canadian gal

                          I think they know exactly how offensive saying something like "making a mountain out of mole hill" is when referring to discrimination.

                          "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                          by Futuristic Dreamer on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:41:15 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  They are not talking about discrimination (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            simone daud

                            they are rebutting someone who just called them a moron.  You don't have to accept that, but it is transparently obvious to me that you are trying to make your own personal pissing match into something it is not.  You demean yourself and your argument by making it, just as Choomin demeans his argument by saying ridiculous things about Poland.

                            "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

                            by SteveP on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:19:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Anti-semitism in Russia is an ongoing problem (0+ / 0-)

                      The nationalist fascists publicly attack Jews and even kill them.  That is what disturbs me.  It disturbs me a great deal.  In Poland they at least have the March of the Living as well as many other Israeli-Polish cultural exchanges.  In Russia, some random fascist with a knife will try to murder Jews in a synagogue every week.

                      I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                      by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:45:05 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                Which specific crimes and which specific times?  Be specific.  Or are you gonna dodge this lil question to?  You dodge all of my questions for some reason.  Like your reason for an organ of the UN not being a part of the UN.  

                Anyways, got anymore racist copy paste from last year you wanna share with us?

                Anyways, I already won.  My diary has been read and my 18 sources and 5 videos have been viewed by those who are interested in intelligent and civil discourse.  This diary wasn't for you or your troll friends.  It was for people who wish to learn and understand the corrupt world we live in.

                Now go and troll some more.  I reported to the admins already that you and various others have repeatedly trolled in my diary.  Have fun further incriminating yourselves.

                Feel free to answer the question on my specific times and crimes with links and quotes.  I won't, and I'm pretty sure the admins won't, consider it trolling if you back your assertions up.

                I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                by General Choomin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:38:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  In the other thread people are citing (0+ / 0-)

                  Did you read the rest of it?  The parts where I said I was there when skinheads tried to paint swastikas on the Jewish community center? That's not the only example of antisemitism I've witnessed.  You really are a piece of shit for defending that kind of crap.

                  "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                  by Futuristic Dreamer on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 10:30:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Then explain all the people who agree with this (3+ / 0-)

          Because that makes me feel ill.

  •  Actually this is beyond laughable (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CN, leftynyc, blueness, canadian gal

    Forget the situation in the Middle East

    Anyone who thinks Poland and Germany should br lauded for their treatment of the Jews is an imbecile.

  •  Didn't you see them running around with (0+ / 0-)

    nails and hammers trying to crucify her and nail her to the wall while she's still alive? Oh come on, open your eyes a bit

    Don't give a damn a/t each & every politician currently alive in the US. Last time i voted for the top part of the ballot was 1972. Never missed SB election

    by Mutual Assured Destruction on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:07:27 PM PDT

  •  Major FAIL. Troll (4+ / 0-)

     title=

    "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

    by Futuristic Dreamer on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:08:07 PM PDT

  •  She had her 60 years of fame (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soros

    Most people only get 15 minutes. Now go back to anonimity PLEASE!

    I learned French because I like the language. I'm learning Spanish because I like the people who speak it.

    by Vengeur on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:14:34 PM PDT

  •  HR-ed for apologia of Poland's shameful (7+ / 0-)

    history.  You need to pick up a history book.

    And that gets uprates.  Seriously, some posters need to fucking get a grip.

    I've erased the rest of my post because I'm just too angry.  You want people to understand your upset but you're clearly not too keen on understanding others' pain.

  •  I was really too tired to read this. (6+ / 0-)

    But I did anyway. And it sounded like something from the onion. I have to take it as an attempt at humor of some kind. And read it again after I get up in the morning.

    Moderation in most things. Except Reactors. IFR forever!

    by billmosby on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:24:17 PM PDT

  •  This is what Helen Thomas wrote in her website (7+ / 0-)

    Helen Thomas issued the following statement today:   "I deeply regret my comments I made last week regarding the Israelis and the Palestinians. They do not reflect my heart-felt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognize the need for mutual respect and tolerance. May that day come soon." (June 4, 2010)

    http://www.helenthomas.org/

    Your diary is simply amazing. It demands a lot from a human being to re-write the history of Jews in 20th Century Poland and Germany.

    Now I need to go and take a shower. This is disgustingly nauseating!

  •  Wait. "demonetization?" (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CN, valadon, Brecht, blueness, SteveP

    Depriving her of her status as money?

    "I can't go to sleep. Someone on the internet is wrong!"

    by DrJeremy on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:32:56 PM PDT

  •  shame on recommenders. (9+ / 0-)

    Poland

    Now let's get something straight about the evil that is Poland first.  Poland has around 20,000 to 100,000 Jewish citizens( 3 ).  Poland also protected many culturally important parts of Jewish history.  Some of the Jewish Synagogues and Jewish cemeteries where maintained or restored when they where under the direct control of a Polish government.  Since the main destroyers of Jewish culture in Poland was the Russian Empire, the Nazi Empire, and finally the USSR.( 4 )  The ties between Poland and Israel are very deep in such that Holocaust Museums are visited every year across Poland in the March of the living.( 5 )  Poland is also recognized by Yad Vashem as having the most righteous amongst the nations with nearly 27% being Polish.( 6 )  I don't understand the faux hatred against a nation that is one of the most historically and culturally rich Jewish nations of all time.  A nation in which many Jews still travel to , in my opinion, for deep spiritual and emotional reasons.

    jewish population poland - pre WWII - 3,000,000
    jewish population poland - post WWII - 45,000

    source.

    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

    by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:49:27 PM PDT

  •  Choomin (11+ / 0-)

    We've got a problem here.  This diary is ridiculous, and here is why:

    You have gone to great lengths to extoll the virtues of Poland and Germany.  I agree those two are great countries.  In my field we have a lot of Germans, and obviously they are doing something right over there because they are turning out legions of extremely smart people who take the science world by storm and in between doing that they are waking up at 4 AM to climb mountains.

    But you are intentionally (and transparently) ignoring the true (and obvious) reason that the comment is so deeply hurtful.  Why it is so deeply tragic.  And why it is so deeply unacceptable.

    The comment was that Jews should go "home" to Germany and Poland.  It is pretty obvious that she meant Israelis, but even if she didn't, even if she meant Jews anywhere, it doesn't really change it that much.  

    Do you understand that in my grandparents' lifetime, and I am a young person, 90% of the Jewish people, 6 million of them, were burned in ovens in those countries?  Do you understand that?

    It was a crime unprecedented in human history.  A (nearly successful) attempt to remove an entire ethnic group from the face of the Earth.  That was only 65 years ago.  It is too soon.

    It is too soon, and you know that. These words are unacceptable, and you know that.  No amount of attempting to sidetrack with how great Germany is today can take away the fact that 6 million Jews were burned in the ovens there 65 years ago, and only someone with a heart of stone or ice could listen to those words and defend them.

    I HR'd your diary for trivializing the Holocaust.  For pretending that telling Jews to go back to two countries where 6 million of them were burned in ovens within my grandparents' lifetime is an innocuous statement because Germany is a helluva place today.

    I think you need step back for a bit and consider this.  Maybe stay up all night smoking weed like you said you do here, and clear your head some.  

    Those comments are so hurtful, and any defense of them is hateful.  Hateful of Jewish people whatever their nationality or politics.  Obviously Helen Thomas feels so because she apologized and moved on.  You are doing her no service by keeping this alive.

    •  not unprecedented. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      louisprandtl, thebluecrayon

      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

      by canadian gal on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 10:55:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You make a strong argument. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades

      But I sympathize with the diarist's wish to defend Helen, a woman I admire. I think he may have been mistaken, as you may have, in analyzing her words as if they were carefully chosen for her column.

      I believe she first mentioned Germany and Poland to contrast them with the occupied territories in Palestine, implying that the Palestinians did not deserve such treatment because they were not responsible for the atrocities of the Nazis. After she said that Israel should get the hell out of Palestine, she was pressed as to where they should go, and again where their home is. I think she just repeated the two countries she mentioned previously, along with a few seconds later the US and everywhere else. I don't think she thought about it. Her age played a role. That doesn't mean age plays a role in her columns, where she knows the routine and probably spends a good amount of time preparing.

      You said that Helen moved on but it is quite a sad ending. She lost her job. Everyone from the White House to fellow journalists roundly condemned her. Her co-author won't work with her. A high schools canceled her speech. A university is discussing whether to remove her name from an award. And more of this will happen to her in the future. It is too much punishment for a few hurtful seconds off the job caught on videotape. If not for all these consequences, I would not have defended her remarks, which I found offensive when I first heard them. I suspect the diarist would not have either.

      •  thank you for a reasoned reply (4+ / 0-)

        Why don't we just agree that Helen Thomas is a fine person who is not an anti-Semite.  It is good that she apologized and she should have been able to keep her job.  But maybe she just wanted to retire.  It also is too bad that she is missing out on speeches and awards, but on the other hand the people and institutions who feel offended have that right too.  

        In short, I think we agree about Helen Thomas.

        To me, the real issue here is the anti-Semitism of this diary, and of others who post here.  As you have read in my comment, and on which I think you may agree, for the diarist to so cavalierly speak of Germany and Poland as a perfectly acceptable place to tell Jews to go "back" to is despicable.  It is intentionally provocative.  

        •  We do agree about Helen (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          canadian gal

          And it would be unacceptable to tell Israelis to go back to Germany and Poland.

          As you say private groups have a right to retract invitations to those who offend them. But it is so hard to believe that the same people that were probably excited to have what they considered to be an icon come to their schools suddenly become unforgiving and view her as harboring Ahmadinejad-like ideas because of a few seconds of tape. I better stop now. I am probably not being articulate due to the late hour. But thanks for your reply.

        •  What about Russia? (0+ / 0-)

          A million Jews have emigrated from Russia to Israel in the last 20 years. Is it acceptable for them to go back there? What about the 300,000 from the United States?

          I think what Helen was inelegantly saying is that the massive immigration in recent years is driving the territorial expansion of the Jewish population in Israel. That immigration and expansion, much like Hispanic immigration in the United States, is a source of tension and exacerbates the existing problems.

          A tax cut for the wealthy is the opiate of the rightwing masses.

          by edg on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 02:04:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I didn't trivialize the holocaust. (0+ / 0-)

      Jews died.  So did ethnic Polish, gypsies, homosexuals, communists, any russian.  The Nazi genocide is much greater then 6 million.  

      What you are doing though is worse.  You are accusing me of trivializing and denying the holocaust or any other massive Nazi genocides.  

      I specifically state in my diary

      Which culminated in one of the worst wars and multiple genocides in the history of man.

      How can I trivialize it when I describe the Nazis as one of the worst perpetrators of wars and genocides in the history of man?  

      Even when I say a thing you put words in my mouth.  You use it as an attack.  I put up my citations for that tiny part of my diary but you attack me on stuff I never said.  On words you attache to me that are extremely offensive.  That is neither fair nor right.

      You do to me what you falsely claim I did to you.

      I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

      by General Choomin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:02:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you just refuse to get it (8+ / 0-)

        I am out of energy.

        One last attempt:

        Let's say you see someone who immigrated to your town from Darfur, sitting on a park bench.  Everyone knows the person is from Darfur.  Then you see another person walk up and tell that person "Hey buddy, why don't you try living in Sudan?  Actually, it is  a great place to live.  They have whirling Dervishes and lots of oil wealth, and it almost never rains. Check it out."

        Do you find anything offensive about that?  Do you see how the person is minimizing the genocide?  That's what you did.

        •  So your advice is that I should have put (0+ / 0-)

          A section on Jewish treatment in America and "elsewhere" which includes Israel.

          It's as if you think that I didn't address that the history of both nations didn't contain horrific examples of institutionalized antisemitism in the past.

          But you will continue to put words in my mouth and say what you will like always.  I am done with this diary.  You can call berate me, HR me for specious reasons, and marginalize me next week when I make another diary.

          I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

          by General Choomin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:25:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If Darfur achieves peace ... (0+ / 0-)

          and remains peaceful for 65 years as has Germany, would you still think to wrong to consider Sudan? After all, Jews weren't present in Israel for about 1,900 years after the Romans kicked them out, yet some still thought of it as their home.

          A tax cut for the wealthy is the opiate of the rightwing masses.

          by edg on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 02:07:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  not died, murdered. (5+ / 0-)

        Jews died.  So did ethnic Polish, gypsies, homosexuals, communists, any russian.

        all of those people were murdered, butchered, slaughtered, exterminated, wiped-out, destroyed, etc.  even using the verb "died" to refer to victims of a genocide is mistaken to questionable to offensive.

    •  A question regarding your statistic. (0+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      Hidden by:
      Futuristic Dreamer

      You state that 6 million, or 90%, of Jews wer burned in ovens. That means only 600,000 survived. Sixty-five years later the world's Jewish population is 13.3 million. That's a 2200% increase in 65 years.

      To what do you attribute this rapid recovery, considering that the Jewish population growth rate is only 0.3%, or about 1/5 of the population growth rate of the worldwide average for all peoples?

      A tax cut for the wealthy is the opiate of the rightwing masses.

      by edg on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:59:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No offense, but since most except... (0+ / 0-)

        deniers of the Holocaust know that 50% of the entire Jewish population were exterminated by the genocide, it's obvious that it was a typo.

        So what is the purpose of your comment to even address the mistake in typing as if that was what the comment was saying?  What is the value of your comment?  It makes no sense to me.

        When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

        by citizen53 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 03:21:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  are you effing serious? (2+ / 0-)

        i mean are you questioning that 6 million jews killed?

        "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

        by canadian gal on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 06:59:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is what HRs are for. n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          canadian gal

          "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

          by Futuristic Dreamer on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 10:40:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, this is not what HRs are for. (0+ / 0-)

            If you bother to read my comment instead of reacting in a kneejerk fashion, you will see that I did not question the well-known fact that 6 million were killed. I believe that number is about right, although do I think the 5 million gypsies, Poles, and others who were killed should be acknowledged also.

            What I asked is how the population recovered so quickly. The math used by fizziks does not add up.

            You, sir or madam, are a jerk to HR a comment when you don't even understand it.

            A tax cut for the wealthy is the opiate of the rightwing masses.

            by edg on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 12:56:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The total number of people murdered by Hitler is (0+ / 0-)

              more than 6 million.  6 million Jews were killed, as well as millions of others, people who objected, gypsies, poles, gays, etc.  Depending on who else you include the total number of people murdered by Hitler can be upwards of 20 million (including decenters, soviet POWs, etc). They all deserve to be remembered.

              "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

              by Futuristic Dreamer on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 06:36:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Are you effing serious? (0+ / 0-)

          WTF led you to think I was questioning 6 million killed? I said there were 6 million killed in my comment. The idea that I questioned the number originated in your head and kneejerk reaction, not in anything I wrote or believe.

          A tax cut for the wealthy is the opiate of the rightwing masses.

          by edg on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 12:52:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  your phrasing. (0+ / 0-)

            and jumpiness to repeated anti-semitism on these boards, like say for instance this diary. if i misunderstood - i apologize for asking.

            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

            by canadian gal on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 01:53:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The 90% (0+ / 0-)

        is either mistaken or out of context, only a mere third of the worldwide Jewish population was murdered in the holocaust.

        •  i think... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CN

          he meant 90% of polish jews - which i suppose is probably on the low side. its probably more like 99%.

          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 06:16:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Futuristic Dreamer

          A "mere third" is far too many. My uncle was in a unit that liberated one of the camps. He did not speak of it much but it was apparent that the magnitude of Nazi crimes is hard to comprehend and it affected him his whole life.

          A tax cut for the wealthy is the opiate of the rightwing masses.

          by edg on Thu Jun 10, 2010 at 12:59:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  perfect comment, fizziks (6+ / 0-)

      The only thing I have to add is that, for me, it happened within my parents' lifetimes, not just my grandparents';  my dad lost every single family member that lived in Poland, every single cousin, aunt, uncle, grandparent: gone.  Even the tiny babies were murdered.

      When I interviewed my grandmother on tape, many years ago, I had to suddenly turn the tape off and stop the whole interview because mention of her life in Poland caused her to gush tears, uncontrollably.  I had never seen my grandmother cry before that day, and I really can't even describe what it felt like to see her pain revealed and to be the cause of that terrible, long-oeverdue release.

      Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

      by hikerbiker on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 05:47:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you mean (0+ / 0-)

      90% of the Jewish people, 6 million of them

      90% of Polish Jews, 6 million Jews?  or 90% of European Jews?  worldwide the 6 million were a third of the total Jewish population.

  •  Can we be cavaliely racist towards anyone else? (6+ / 0-)

    I'm just curious.  See the level of animosity towards Israelis and Jews - though not high - is still very troubling.  I was wondering if it was okay to make bigoted comments about other groups.

    •  sure it happens all the time (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      keikekaze

      are you surprised? But I don't think anyone is making fun of Jews. But just out of curiosity is it alright tobe bigoted about "Arabs?" Because the Rabbi who brought Helen down just might be.

      Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

      by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:06:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Choomin is an antisemite. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fizziks, Futuristic Dreamer

      He might hate other non-Muslim groups as well, but mostly it just hates the Jews.

      •  And the people defending him? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Futuristic Dreamer
        •  Useful idiots. (0+ / 0-)

          Like the true well-meaning people on the flotilla.  They were used by the Jihadists to mask their antisemitic aims, with great success.

          But as we've seen, the antisemites cant hide their true feelings for long.

      •  I assume you can back that up? (0+ / 0-)

        that's a pretty strong charge and you'd better be sure...or do you just get pleasure from entertaining your friends?

        Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

        by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:28:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is a likely conclusion (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Futuristic Dreamer, canadian gal

          given the entirety of his/her comment and diary history, and of course the current piece of work.

          •  and I should believe someone (0+ / 0-)

            who is obviously biased against Muslims? Where is his/her credibility?

            And do you think that it's productive to call everyone an anti-Semite because you might be angry?

            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

            by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:45:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't really know what you are talking about (0+ / 0-)
              1. Who is 'obviously biased against Muslims'?  Certainly not me.  I don't think I've ever mentioned the word Muslims or the religion of Islam ever in my 5 years here.  I am the one you should believe when it comes to the diarist's attitudes.
              1. If you are referring to my diary from yesterday, it is very clear and specific the subset of people who I am accusing of anti-Semitism, and it isn't "everyone".  I suggest you actually read it before I waste more time trying to talk to you about it.  You may be surprised.
              •  did you read this person's (0+ / 0-)

                other comment at the bottom of the page?

                and secondly, yes, I was talking about your diary and I just happen to think that people better be damned sure who they are accusing of anti-semitism especially on a forum such as this where it is hard to know someone's background or history.

                Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                by valadon on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:56:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  indeed (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Futuristic Dreamer
                  1. yes, I did, and I HR'd it.  Don't worry about that person.  I am the person who is informing you of the anti-Semitism
                  1. I do not believe you (aka I think you are lying) when you say that you read my diary, for you made the claim that it accuses "everyone" of anti-Semitism (your words), when very clearly and explicitly it doesn't.  
                  •  how funny (0+ / 0-)

                    this is your first sentence:

                    You.  Yes, you.  The person who doesn't see the problem with what Helen Thomas said.

                    and above you said you knew she wasn't anti-Semitic, then you accuse those who supposedly don't see a "problem" with what Helen said as being anti-Semitic...

                    so which is it? Are YOU lying?

                    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                    by valadon on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:37:24 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  exactly (3+ / 0-)

                      Helen Thomas says something off the cuff in the heat of the moment, and then apologizes.  Problem solved.  Not anti-Semitic.

                      But people who, under sober analysis, refuse to acknowledge that her comments were offensive and wrong?  Anti-Semitic.

                      No contradiction there.  

                      Really, this isn't hard.  I am almost as disappointed in the number of people here who can't comprehend this simple logic as the number who are anti-Semitic.

                      •  faulty logic Fizziks , sorry (0+ / 0-)

                        the premise was not anti-semitism, but anti-Zionism. So even if you are willing to forgive Helen for apologizing, the worst you could say of others is that they might be anti-Zionist. There's no crime in that. Even some Orthodox Jews are anti-Zionist (for different reasons of course).

                        If she's essentially saying they should have never gone there because it was disruptive to other people, and that those people are now in a deplorable state because of them being there, and she flippantly says they should just go home, it is a mark of extreme exasperation and possibly desperation. She may have always felt that they should have never gone there in the first place.

                        That's not a terrible thought...I've heard others discuss whether historically and politically it had been a good idea to form the state in that region.

                        At any rate Helen knows full well that no one is going anywhere.

                        Now, how do we explain the fact that many top governmental officials in Israel have always talked about their "Arab problem" and how they would deal with expelling or displacing them?

                        Why is there no outrage about that? Because that is the most obvious thing that is happening in that land, and that is a fact that some are raising.

                        Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                        by valadon on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:17:55 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  user # 245696 (6+ / 0-)

        so intimately aware of the personalities of this site for such a new user...

      •  Pot,kettle? (0+ / 0-)

        You certainly look to be an anti-Islamist.

        Am I cynical? Yes I am! - Bob the Builder's lesser known brother Pete the Politician

        by Ezekial 23 20 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 04:22:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Geez, poor Helen (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, libnewsie

    You'd think she swooped down onto a boat and murdered a bunch of defenseless people or something.

    Illegal Alien: Term used by the descendents of foreign colonizers to refer to the descendents of indigenous people

    by mojada on Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 11:22:03 PM PDT

  •  FWIW, this topic is getting ridiculous (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CN, fizziks

    Nothing better to do?  If only she did not say it, look at all the spite that would have been saved, especially here.  

    Does this matter?  Will it make a difference in what goes on from virtually any angle.  Mountains out of mole hills, a specialty here.

    I'm at the bottom here.  Who knows who will see this.  But let me point to one thing.  She did not even apologize to those who were offended.

    I finally decided to look.  Here is what she said at here site:

    “I deeply regret my comments I made last week regarding the Israelis and the Palestinians. They do not reflect my heart-felt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognize the need for mutual respect and tolerance. May that day come soon.”

    This was a written statement.  She chose the time and place.  What does she have?

    Regret for making the comments.  That's really it.  Nothing about that she should not have said it.  Nothing about the pain such insensitivity causes to others.

    I am actually surprised that confirmed that it seems to confirm the comment actually is what she believes.

    I could have cared if she came or went.  It's trivial these days.  The wolves come out, but so do the defenders, who act no better.

    If only SHE would not have wasted all this time over some words that were clearly offensive to most people.

    When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

    by citizen53 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:40:17 AM PDT

    •  I can honestly say I wish (0+ / 0-)

      I hadn't seen it.

      Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

      by valadon on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 12:42:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How many here do you think looked? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fizziks, Mas Gaviota

        I did not read this diary closely.  I see who wrote it.  Did he include it?

        I can honestly say I just read what she wrote for the first time.  To me, it's more bad than good.  Most want peace and harmony.

        There is stuff out there that many left-wing radical types don't know about with regard to the underbelly of many people they promote.  An NGO tells them, they follow along.  There were recent demonstrations in Turkey where signs were openly displayed calling for the spirit of Hitler to return.  That is not anti-Israel, it is anti-Jew.  It's rampant.  And many of the people egging it on claim to be leftists.

        I am a leftist and see one of the tenets of liberalism is fundamental fairness in the quest for human rights.  The world condemns Israel for the nasty things it does, but gives it no way out.  There are many reasons for this.  A large one is the the UN, the main place that most states operate in international matters, does not exhibit fairness towards Israel, and uses a selective, non-universal, double standard that pushes Israel away, when it should do the opposite.  That is, if human rights and international peace and security is the real purpose.  Or is it just power?

        In my view, we have to seriously look at who was the aggressor.  It should be a factor in all calculations.  It colors every action.  the fact is that one side historically took the route of peaceful resolution of dispute and the other aggression, in clear violation of Article 2.4 of the the UN Charter.  Jews are not innocents in the Middle East.  Israel has become much like its neighbors.  But I think if you look back, in fairness, the party that repeatedly initiated the aggression was not Israel, but the neighboring states.

        So the world hollers at Israel, now ignoring the role of aggression that created the situation, and paying lip service to the Article 51.  No other sovereign state is both threatened and limited.  No other UN member is subjected to similar calls for eradication, express or implied, from other states, also a violation of Article 2.4.

        The world does not help find a way to create the security needed so that Israel, when it lets does its defenses, does not get burned once again.  Because that is what has happened.  And it will continue, time and time again, when one side is not ready for peace.  

        Looking from the sidelines, that is what I believe is needed, fairness, and it is lacking.  It's time, in my opinion, for all issues to get a place in the sun, and for the international community to fairly step up.  Then I believe Israel would again be more willing to take a chance.

        When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

        by citizen53 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:19:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Turkish government gave Israel a way out (0+ / 0-)

          The Israeli government had their heads too far up their asses to take it. The Turkish government said it would normalize ties with Israel again after Israel apologized, and loosened the blockade. The second thing they should do anyway (would it really hurt them to allow chocolate and notebooks into Gaza?), and not apologizing, that's just arrogence.

          "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

          by Futuristic Dreamer on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 09:20:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I read it :) (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Futuristic Dreamer, canadian gal

      even though it was at the last line.

      I think you bring up some important questions.  But there is a charitable interpretation

      I deeply regret my comments...

      This could be interpreted as you did, that she regrets making the comments, as in she feels them but shouldn't have said them out loud.  But "I deeply regret my comments" could also mean that she regrets the comments themselves, ie the sentiment therein.

      I certainly don't know.  I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  As I've said, I am infinitely more bothered by the pathetic attempts to agree with and/or defend the comments than I am by the comments themselves.  

      •  That is the point. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fizziks

        It is her obligation to make it clear that she was apologizing for the content, not just because it was heard.

        When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

        by citizen53 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:22:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Did you see the Hitler worship in Turkey? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fizziks

        That is what see as most disturbing, the hatred for Jews.  Thomas's remarks were of the mildest type of what is a growing trend.  

        Around here, that is what will happen, defense of the comment by the very people who call others extremists.  It's the left-wing knee-jerk reaction, too blind to politics to see who they align themselves with.  They are being used and have virtually no capacity to maintain an open mind.  Oh well.

        When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

        by citizen53 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:33:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  whew, glad we can defend Helen Thomas (6+ / 0-)

    because if Don Imus had said what she did then all hell would break loose on DK.

    "To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." - Woody Allen

    by soros on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:00:43 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for this. I suspected, when I first heard (0+ / 0-)

    that the tape that was being circulated had cut off the "and America..." part that we were being set up for a smear campaign, and that she might have been talking about the Occupied Territories all along.

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 03:46:54 AM PDT

    •  I didn't 'suspect it all along', but (0+ / 0-)

      I m glad to actually see the real transcript showing how the reply was actually issued, piecemeal, and a bit more context.

      Now I don't know whether HT refers to the occupied territories as 'Palestine' or Israel and the occupied territories - I do find that vague - but taken in context, what she said is not necessarily nearly as nasty as it's being painted by much of the media and our usual crowd of 'x can do no wrong' posters.  (X can be Israel or Obama, your choice, since they overlap here.)

      Am I cynical? Yes I am! - Bob the Builder's lesser known brother Pete the Politician

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 04:18:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  bullshit (3+ / 0-)

      Why did she resign then?  If she was talking about the occupied territories she would have said so in defense of her own remarks.

  •  this diary blatantly gets Poland wrong. (7+ / 0-)

    here's what happened last time Jews tried to "go back" to Poland after WW2, anti-semitism and violence towards returning Jews ran rampant:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    in addition to prejudice, Helen Thomas displayed ignorance to the basic history involved, just as this diary here has.

  •  Ugh (9+ / 0-)

    This is just disgusting. Sorry, but much as I overall respect her, what she said was just plain wrong and, in anyone else, I would call it ignorant. Had she said they should go back to Israel, fine. I'd think she was right. But to say Poland and Germany is just plain stupid. Of course the vast majority of settlers currently on Palestinian territory were NOT born in Poland or Germany. They were born in Israel.

    Suggesting Jews move back to Germany and Poland is as a solution to the Mideast Conflict is one of the stupidest things anyone has ever said.

    FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. Read the PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT Newsletter

    by mole333 on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 04:57:22 AM PDT

  •  Wow, I think the admins here need (0+ / 0-)

    to look into the way some users are throwing around the word Anti-Semite.

  •  Hey, Germany's a fine place and (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mas Gaviota, hikerbiker, canadian gal

    yet, anyone who suggests that therefore there's nothing wrong with telling me to "go back to where I came from" can eat me.

    Is the video camera the only device that worked?

    by Inland on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:43:02 AM PDT

  •  The whole idea of Israel is that it is a place (0+ / 0-)

    for Jews to "go back to where they came from."

    "Es mejor morir de pie que vivir de rodilla." E. Zapata

    by Mas Gaviota on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:14:14 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for the Luntz, Fleisher and Davis links, (0+ / 0-)

    not to mention the timing.  A lot of overtime going into discrediting the discrediters.  Thomas has been targeted for Reporting While Arab for years, at 89, some right-wing rabbi was finally able not only to entrap her and end her career, but to turn the newscycle away from criticism of Israel's killing of an American citizen.

    "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

    by Rusty Pipes on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 05:04:46 PM PDT

    •  Well.... (0+ / 0-)

      I am going to take a break it seems.  The negative responses and attacks I got from my diary is to much.  I'm also on the verge of being banned because of all the HR abuse that has gone on.

      Comments that accuse me of being a holocaust denier and an antisemite are just to much.  I explained that my family faced antisemitism in the past and a reply that I got was this

      I'm part stupid (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
         Futuristic Dreamer, thebluecrayon, hikerbiker

      I had a stupid great-grandparent and I strongly identify with the stupid.  So in the future, any time I say something incredibly stupid, you should just go ahead and refrain from pointing that out, lest you offend my heritage.

      by CN on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 01:46:46 PM EDT

      This is a shame and a sham.  I'm tired of this.

      I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

      by General Choomin on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 08:10:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Daily Kos Mourns Anti-Semite Helen Thomas (0+ / 0-)

    NewsBusters: Daily Kos Mourns 'Such a Good-Natured Woman,' That Helen Thomas
    http://newsbusters.org/...

  •  You're such a smeghead. nt (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    borkitekt

    So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

    by skeptiq on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:50:58 PM PDT

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