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Someone suggested yesterday that we need stories, not charts.

Good point; however, stories AND charts are even better.

The next time you are talking to a corporate apologist, ask them to explain this type of behavior.  

As Johnson & Johnson (JNJ) CEO William Weldon planned up to 8,100 layoffs at his company (announced today), he was also buying an $8.45 million, palm-fringed waterfront lot in North Palm Beach, Fla., from former General Electric CEO Jack Welch. The sale was noted by the Palm Beach Daily News on Oct. 27.

http://industry.bnet.com/...

How many of those laid off workers salaries could have been paid with $8.5 million dollars?  At $40,000/yr., 212 could have kept their jobs.  Perhaps some, who have lost their homes, can pitch a tent on Weldon's empty lots.  

Weldon't $8.5 Million Lots

Corporations are sitting on over a trillion dollars of cash-on-hand.  Chart #1 below shows this.  And how are they spending it instead of hiring?

And the shareholders?  In May, 2010

J & J's dividend increase:

J & J last week boosted its dividend payout by 10.2% and the stock currently yields 3.32%.


http://www.dailymarkets.com/...

Well, the above story demonstrates whose hands that cash-on-hand are being enriched.

And what is really blood boiling, is the apparent fact that this cash-on-hand appeared at the same time millions of Americans' jobs were being axed.

So, corporate apologists, meet us on camera 5:

Can you see how at least a little bit of tweeking to this system might make some sense?  Are you unconcerned about the job prospects for your children and/or grandchildren today and down the road?

Corporate cash-on-hand has risen to its highest increased levels since 1952, from 2007-Present at the same time long-term employment has done the same and the CURVE IS ALMOST IDENTICAL.  Shareholders' dividends/stock values benefit while long-term employment rises.

Is this contributing to long-term unemployment?  The charts seem to indicate it does:

Follow the Money

Long-Term Unemployed Chart

The curves in the two charts are practically identical.  More cash-on-hand, more long-term unemployment.  At what point will these corporations have to hire?  And will they hire the people they laid off?  And, really, should Congress give them financial incentives to do so?

For a few more stories like the one above, you can visit here:
http://www.dailykos.com/...

And this thought had me giggling out loud.  Who, in their right mind, would buy shore front property these days anyway?  Dah!  Of course corporate CEOs are global warming deniers.  Or was he just helping Jack unload his property?

3+ Meter Sea Rise Level

So CEO Welch, smart move!

CEO Weldon, really?  $8.5 million for beach front?  Really?  unless......?

Oh wait!  

This isn't funny.  

212 family breadwinners might still be employed if this rich man's dream of shore front property didn't trump their jobs!

Then again, maybe Congress will subsidize Weldon's relocation when his lots become seabed.  A concession to get a Clean Energy Bill passed, maybe.  Nothing would surprise me anymore.

Originally posted to War on Error on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:01 AM PDT.

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  •  Tip Jar (142+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JekyllnHyde, Joe Bob, LeislerNYC, slinkerwink, krwada, LynChi, eeff, concernedamerican, bronte17, juniper, djMikulec, otto, fumie, wader, grannyhelen, BoxerDave, crackpot, cosette, GN1927, Sychotic1, Catte Nappe, zerelda, ybruti, Kitsap River, vacantlook, boran2, Josiah Bartlett, murrayewv, 3goldens, Tinfoil Hat, UncleCharlie, CTPatriot, PBen, PsychoSavannah, BCO gal, dewtx, drewfromct, Brooke In Seattle, ratzo, LNK, where4art, cassidy3, skyounkin, Ginny in CO, sodalis, dazed in pa, Snud, Clytemnestra, seefleur, Hear Our Voices, Magnifico, ginja, blueoasis, A Siegel, bleeding heart, Preston S, Pilgrim X, profh, emsprater, kurt, zedaker, PhilW, CharlieHipHop, Thinking Fella, tegrat, One Pissed Off Liberal, dov12348, dotsright, merrylib, uncomfortably numb, Dartagnan, ColoTim, chigh, greenchiledem, ezdidit, Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle, jayden, vbdietz, millwood, GeorgeXVIII, ImpeachKingBushII, Empower Ink, VA Breeze, JDWolverton, MKinTN, OleHippieChick, Youffraita, Involuntary Exile, lineatus, Lujane, MrJayTee, happymisanthropy, petulans, Karl Rover, papicek, csaw, litoralis, greengemini, divineorder, An Affirming Flame, Methinks They Lie, Nailbanger, tr GW, DClark4129, kevinpdx, DreamyAJ, DaNang65, mahakali overdrive, ozarkspark, grassrootsnm, miss SPED, estreya, on board 47, Garfnobl, Eddie L, melpomene1, juturna, ThisIsMyTime, JasperJohns, JRandomPoster, Betty Pinson, roystah, elengul, Floande, Actbriniel, poorbuster, Mistral Wind, mikejay611, princesspat, BarackStarObama, LSmith, rexymeteorite, corvaire, Anthony Page aka SecondComing, Sunspots, Regina in a Sears Kit House, PrometheusUnbound, Azazello, jacey, James Robinson, DM4, Deep Texan

    It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

    by War on Error on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:01:27 AM PDT

  •  Welfare recipients continue to collect checks (0+ / 0-)

    despite record state and federal budget issues.

    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

    by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:04:18 AM PDT

    •  Yep, Corporate Welfare is out of control. (38+ / 0-)

      Especially Defense.

      Cut it now, use  funds to help transition out of work folks through the disaster left by BushCo and Republican/Dem voters over the last to Pres terms.

      www.yesweSTILLcan.org

      by divineorder on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:06:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are right corporate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        merrylib

        welfare is out of control as well as non corporate welfare.  

        So a whole bunch of business and poor people are taking money from the government, knowing full well we are in a tight spot.  Shame on the both of them.  

        I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

        by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:09:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  That is a harsh recommendation (0+ / 0-)

            that you have offered.  I have more confidence in the poor who are absolutely not immune from being greedy(I assume that you are not claiming they are immune from greed.) and there ability to be resourceful and continue fighting for survival.  

            The rich guy spending his money while laying off the listed number and the poor people who are doing their best to survive off of government subsidies and other resources they develop themselves along with community providers are all taking money from the same place......the person in the middle.

            So as it is powerful and popular to single out the rich person who is spending his/her money and running his/her business as they see fit, it is not as powerful or impactful to point out how the poor can durt the middle class as well.  

            Being poor doesn't mean you are virtuous, neither does being rich.

            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:18:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ahh yes, the grasping rapacity of the (38+ / 0-)

              ... pampered poor, wanting more, more, ever more of the rich bounty of a $400 month welfare check.

              ... and we have seen the black suns | pouring forth the night. -- Clark Ashton Smith

              by bustacap on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:25:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  So, just so I'm clear on what you're saying ... (53+ / 0-)

              ...since federal and state budgets are a mess, poor people (many of whom were middle class three years ago) should be willing to accept, say, a 20% cut in their Food Stamps and unemployment benefits and send back part of what they got from the earned income tax credit?

              I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

              by Meteor Blades on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:25:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They should send back (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ScienceMom, sargoth

                what they get as much as the rich guy should not buy a house.  

                I'm taking the cuts, I'm paying more, I've worked with my fair share of people that refused good jobs because they get less than what they make in benefits.  It is just a reality of life, some are projecting this disturbing level of morality on a group of people which they would find unacceptable depending on the group.  

                If I am working harder for less and paying more for less, I don't see the harm in pointing out that I am getting it from both sides.  

                I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:32:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  How many people did the Americans who... (50+ / 0-)

                  ...are collecting tax-paid benefits lay off so that they could get those benefits?

                  This comparison of a wealthy guy who makes a bigger bonus by cutting corporate costs via layoffs with people who are turning down "good jobs" is, frankly, what I find a "disturbing level of morality." In Kentucky, for example, maximum unemployment benefits are below the poverty level. A position that doesn't provide better benefits than that isn't a "good job." While I am sure that some people find a way to enjoy living off their paltry benefits, how is what you're saying different than what Republicans like Sharron Angle are saying?

                  I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

                  by Meteor Blades on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:44:57 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It's like arguing with a creationist. (15+ / 0-)

                    The statements by mim5677 are oversimplistic moral rules that are like the arguments put forth by creationists - wrong at so many levels - that one is left having to wrestle with a squishy balloon.

                    Put simply, the arguments presented demonstrate a selfish, distasteful, ideologucal certitude that is more about justifying personal greed than building and maintaining a nation.

                    Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

                    by Fossil on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:40:12 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  how is it that I am selfish (0+ / 0-)

                      the rich guy is selfish but the poor guy isn't.

                      My money is gone no matter what.  I can't get that money back.  No poor person has ever given me any money from their check(not that I would ask or expect them to do so)

                      Poor people can't be greedy?
                      Poor people can't be lazy?
                      You can't maintain a nation by giving people enough just to get by.  You also can't maintain a nation by squeezing those who barely have enough from both sides.  

                      I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                      by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:08:42 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  QED (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        shpilk

                        Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

                        by Fossil on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:24:26 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  OOOMMMMGGG (11+ / 0-)

                        Look, mim, we all feel your pain.  Imagine that you lost your job.  How "squeezed" would you be then?  I suppose that being the morally upright person you are, you would gladly starve rather than take money from the government since that money is coming from people who are being "squeezed."

                        Stop defending (indirectly) the goddamn CEO class and realize that you're just one pink slip away from joining the greedy, lazy moochers on the welfare line.  

                        Workers of the world, unite!  You're being robbed blind and brainwashed into loving every minute of it.

                        •  I ususally hear the arguments in terms of ER usag (6+ / 0-)

                          ...you know, those selfish, selfish people with no health insurance who have the audacity to go try to wait for hours on end to get treated when their life is in peril...

                          "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

                          by MsGrin on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:39:44 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  mim is a throwback to another time (6+ / 0-)

                          a time in our history before FDR, when people were thrown hopelessly into prison for debt, when children were forced to work for scant wages, when people were supposed to starve or freeze to death if they were poor. mim's a freak, an abhorrent little mind that we should pity for its inhumanity and incivility.

                          Of course, she's right if you want to believe that the poor, the disabled, their minor age offspring, the elderly and infirm are bringing down our whole economy...as if it weren't perpetual warfare that has done so along with forty years of heinous Republican policies and privatization of public tax revenues that have benefited chiefly the wealthy investor class and continues to do so.

                          Yes, mim. it is class war, and the citizens are losing out to the patricians. They have no right to resort to primeval argument against the social contract and the "safety net." Revolutions were fought for this.

                          Wanna come to D.C. on August 28th and see what I mean?

                          I'm a Democrat. That's why!

                          by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:01:42 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm a he(no big deal) (0+ / 0-)

                            You tell me how me acknowledging that I am giving my money to rich and poor people alike and neither are giving me shit is a bad thing.  

                            I already know I didn't address policy, you just flipped and began making all these assumptions about various things including my gender.  This won't cost you any credebility but it should.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:32:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Whats on August 28 (0+ / 0-)

                            I want to be there maybe.

                        •  fuck that shit (0+ / 0-)

                          I'm one pink slip away from working at Mcdonald's.

                          I don't think I questioned the morality of people taking checks either, maybe I did in a sarcastic manner, only to point out that everyone is getting a chunk of my money.  

                          I'd go to McDonalds, then Wendy's and work 16 hours a day to make up the difference.  I already work two jobs so that is just me.  I would be less likely to take a check in times like these but that is just me.  Not better or worse just different.

                          I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                          by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:35:29 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  mim-it's called a "safety net" (5+ / 0-)

                        Social benefits were never a living wage; they are society's humanitarian attempt to keep people from dying on the streets or in the woods. To keep children from freezing to death or starving - though they still do so in numbers that are staggering.

                        And for you to deny the equal human value (capital/potential) of a person earning +$100 million and one who has lost a $50,000/yr factory job through no fault of their own is just the beginning of the perversity and amorality you impart in your argument for profligate wealth and spending.

                        Libertarians unite! You have nothing to lose but your morality and your very souls.

                        This bit of magical thinking is so false as to be creationist. We have moved on far past a cold, cruel world you extol. The question is how do we bring uncivilized people like yourself you on board.

                        Do you also deny that Obama is a citizen? Are you one of those?

                        I'm a Democrat. That's why!

                        by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:50:24 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  living to you and (0+ / 0-)

                          living to people in poverty can be very different.  People learn how to survive with what they have, we all do it, that is life.  

                          Many people have learned to live off of that safety net.  

                          Sometimes the meaning of the safety net can change based on who is using it.  In some cases the safety net is protecting people from having to go to work.  

                          You are ignoring reality if you deny that.  

                          I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                          by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:30:00 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not saying the rich guy is better (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm also not saying he is any worse.  The reality is that those of us in the middle pay for it on both ends.  

                    If I am going to choose sides I will choose mine.  Like I said I see it everyday.  Some examples. A person who hasn't worked in five years, wants to get into a field they have never worked in at the same rate they were earning.  They want $15 per hour and up for a job that would only pay that amount to its top level employees.  I get the I can't take it unless it pays me this much otherwise it doesn't make sense.  I go through this all the time, everyday and whether you like it or not.  Whether you think this lines up with what you think is going on out there or not, it happens a lot.  

                    It is just a reality.  They may not have laid anyone off, but I can't see how anyone would suggest that there is no negative impact coming from that side.  

                    Rich guy lays me off, poor guy takes a chunk of my paycheck, I'm not really in a winning position.

                    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                    by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:04:33 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The rich guy takes a much bigger chunk... (7+ / 0-)

                      ... of your paycheck than the poor guy does.

                      Only 1 percent or so of you tax monies go to helping the poor.  A much bigger piece goes to greedy defense contractors.

                      Not to mention the fact that the CEO is not all that much more valuable to the business than any given worker.  In fact, most businesses would be just fine without a CEO.  They're just figureheads who play golf.  They literally work about two hours a week, and that's primarily conducting meetings with other C-level execs where lunch is served on the company dime.  It's a damn nice lunch, too.

                      •  I doubt that. (0+ / 0-)

                        I bet they probably take about the same amount.  

                        I mean defense contractors....really?  That's a little too big of a picture.  

                        I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                        by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:44:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You're complaining about taxes, right? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          satanicpanic

                          You don't want the little guy taking a chunk of your paycheck.  Well, I'm telling you right now that the big guys take a much bigger chunk.  That's the fact, Jack.

                          And there are far fewer rich guys than poor guys so even if it were split 50-50 (which it's not) the rich guys would still be taking, per capita, a much bigger chunk.

                    •  Wow, $15/hour is "top level" to you? (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      shpilk, zedaker, Cassandra Waites

                      That's less than $30K annually, working a 40-hour week.

                      What kind of work is it that pays so handsomely?

                      "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

                      by Brooke In Seattle on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:44:39 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well lets see (0+ / 0-)

                        custodians
                        a boatload of non-profit jobs,
                        program coordinators of all sorts
                        case managers
                        sometimes psycho therapists,
                        grocery store

                        I could go on as I find people jobs for a living and look over hundreds of job leads a day, shall I update you on the multitude of jobs that pay people $15 per hour.

                        I know you wanted to make a smartass comment, but if you really wanted to know I can give you the info.

                        I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                        by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:58:35 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Let me ask you this: If a family is already strug (27+ / 0-)

                  to make ends meet on unemployment, how can they possibly survive on a "good job" making less? I am 50 years old and was laid off almost a year ago from my $60K a year job. I have trimmed everything non-essential from my budget and we barely scrape by, I even have to make payment arrangements at times. I was just turned down for a job making 35% less than my previous job because my credit it bad. Try living this way. You may change your views.

                •  So... you are "working harder for less" yet (22+ / 0-)

                  you blame the "greedy shiftless" poor for that.

                  Some have maxed out all their credit cards
                  Some are working two jobs and living in cars
                  Minimum wage won't pay for a roof, won't pay for a drink
                  If you gotta have proof just try it yourself Mr. CEO
                  See how far 5.15 an hour will go
                  Take a part time job at one of your stores
                  Bet you can't make it here anymore

                  So let 'em eat jelly beans, let 'em eat cake, let 'em eat shit, whatever it takes...

                  James MrMurtry's We Can't Make It Here Anymore

                  You're a real piece of work.  Let me help enlighten you a little. You must have missed War of Error's diary yesterday Proof: Trickle Down Didn't Help, It Harmed 90% of Americans.

                  Check out the charts. They are very user friendly.

                  You can see the decimation of the middle class beginning with the Reagan years. Under shrub's administration, 70% of the growth in income in this nation was captured by only 1% of the population.

                  <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                  by bronte17 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:09:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  was I blaming them (0+ / 0-)

                    or was a simply pointing out a reality?

                    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                    by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:13:49 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You seem to harbor a lot of blame (5+ / 0-)

                      I realize you are having rough times and I hope you get to a place which is easier very soon, but damn, dude, you're sure holding this against folks who have been on the receiving end rather than the causitive end of this nation-wide calamity.

                      "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

                      by MsGrin on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:45:27 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well that is the thing (0+ / 0-)

                        many of the people here miss points.  I don't begrudge you for doing that because this environment doesn't support understanding all the time.  

                        I am going to pull a Rumsfeld(answering questions I ask)
                        Am I going through a tough time?....you could say that.  
                        Do I think I am going through a tough time because of poor people?....not at all.
                        Do I think that I am paying for poor and rich people to maintain their lifestyles?....you better believe it.

                        I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                        by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:50:56 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Eating/shelter are not lifestyle issues for many (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          zedaker, Purple Priestess

                          For a lot of both the employed and unemployed poor in this country, that's the goal.  Clothing and healthcare come second to that.  Some people would consider food and housing to be matters of  necessity rather than lifestyle.

                          When one can't afford continuity, food and lodging can become a lot more expensive, making it easier to disparage their wastefulness.

                          I realize you are struggling, but it sounds like there are other levels of hell you haven't yet bounced to yet - I hope you don't bounce, but so many are down there by circumstances way out of their control.  Whom will you blame if things get worse for you?  Those who have fallen through the cracks and died?

                          "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

                          by MsGrin on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:05:38 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The same people I blame now (0+ / 0-)

                            nobody.  

                            Is it not a reality that middle class people pay for it both ways?

                            Tell me if that is not true if it isn't I'll shut up, but if it is, someone is going to have to acknowledge that I am paying Peter and Paul and the only person getting robbed is me.  

                            I deal with these people you are talking about all day everyday 8 hours a day for the past 6 years.  You are not giving me new information about poverty.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:08:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  let me ask you, man... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Purple Priestess

                            and i don't mean to be dismissive with this, but why are you here? why do you consider yourself a dem or a liberal or a progressive? i'm actually assuming you do and that you aren't a troll, but you sound an awful lot like a bagger in that particular attitude. it's an attitude that seems very Alger like. so that you end up blaming the wrong people.  

                            "Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear." Gladstone, Me -8.88/-7.08

                            by zedaker on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:23:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good question (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't consider myself a liberal or a progressive.  I only vote for democrats though, if not I just sit it out.  

                            I don't really know what made me sound like a teabagger.  It is reality that I pay out both ways.  I am in the lower middle to be honest but I have things, not many(I'm talking XBOX360) type of things.  

                            My point being is that, when we choose to point out how evil it is that someone lays off 8,100 people and buys a house, we don't make a whole lot of sense.  
                            Doing the Rumsfeld, going to answer my own questions.

                            Is that something many would frown upon? Of course.
                            Do I think the person could have made a better choice? yes I do.
                            Do I think that $9 million is their money to spend how they see fit? absolutely
                            Do I think that $9 million would have prevented those lay offs? No I don't
                            Do I think the owner has a moral obligation to divide that money up among the people they are laying off? No I don't
                            Do I think it is sad that those people lost their jobs because of a businesses bad planning or other factors all out of their control?  Oh yeah I do.

                            Often times when someone brings up an opposite opinion, assumptions are made.  Way too many here but it happens.  

                            I brought up the fact that poor people still accept checks knowing that the country and states are facing serious budget issues.  Which is 100% true, it just is.  I also brought up the fact that as a member of the middle class I kick money up and down, pay more for less, and work more for less.  All true.

                            Does acknowledging this make me less of a Democrat?  Too some it makes me less of a person.  I am not as concerned for people who game the system(mostly rich) as I am for people who wade in the system(mostly poor).

                            The system we have set up is not there to help people get ahead, just by navigating it.  It is there to help people stay afloat.  We can catch the people gaming the system and it usually makes for a good story, it affects lots of people very quickly and with great impact.  The people wading in the system have a different effect.  Not seen by the media, happens over long periods of time, affect just as many people, but not in a way that is newsworthy.  This is just what we have to deal with, it is reality.

                            I don't hear anyone saying welfare and unemployment are perfect systems.  I also don't hear anyone mentioning that they along with corrupt rich people are also a drain on our financial health.  

                            I work in it, I know it, all I am doing is acknowledging it.  I'm a worker bee just like most people but I want to work for something.  I don't want to work so that someone else can learn to survive off of what they get and that is what our system is set up to do.  People navigate it as they see fit, some make the leap some just wallow and others fall off.  I just recognize that reality.  

                            So in this case my acknowledgment of reality appears to be blame to some.  What can I do about that?  Lazy poor people, greedy rich people, greedy poor people, lazy rich people they all exist, even positive versions of both, both drain our system, through gaming apathy and a thousand other ways, it is just what we are faced with.

                            I could see leaning one way or the other if the people in the middle didn't get the shaft so often.  As in politics too much attention is being paid to the fringes.  It is time to start paying more attention to the middle.  I can't help anyone if I don't have and if everyone on both sides of me is trying to get everything I have, I am forced to start putting things into perspective.  

                            Among those three groups who looks out for whom?
                            Rich = themselves.
                            poor = themselves.
                            middle = all three.

                            That bothers me and I don't feel bad about it.  

                            Better democrats will do more for the middle class.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:53:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  hmmm... you really do seem to be operating (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Purple Priestess, Caractacus

                            under some fundamental misconceptions, one of which (and this may be a misconception on my part, since i'm extrapolating from what you've said about yourself) is that you're in the middle (assuming you mean middle class) when you're actually in the working poor category by your descriptions. basically, upper lower class.

                            the reason you're sounding baggerish is that a good bit of that movement seems to arise from a horatio alger type of attitude that dehumanizes people who are poor as undeserving because they didn't work hard enough or whatever, as well as sounding like ANY taxation is bad because by god i earned that money and no one has the right to spend it but me!

                            i seriously doubt that anyone here takes issue with you acknowledging that your taxes benefit people in both directions. the issue is that you seem to feel that the poor should be shamed for being poor and needing help, or that they should refuse needed help because we have budgetary pains. that's where your observations and criticisms fail, because you are misdirecting them at the wrong people. the only shame is the welfare dollars going to those who do NOT need it, i.e. the wealthy.

                            "Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear." Gladstone, Me -8.88/-7.08

                            by zedaker on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 02:32:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Middle class, Upper lower. (0+ / 0-)

                            I think we do okay either way.
                            I don't think I went so far as to dehumanize poor people.  

                            I'm not the "lower my taxes" type.  I'm not the guy that thinks I need to know where every dollar is spent.  We didn't even get into taxes in the discussion really but I'm still not that guy.

                            The comment about shame was a response to a snappy comment.  Beyond the generalization there is some reality there.  

                            I haven't said anything about reducing benefits, lowering taxes, and the like.

                            We have to look under that rock as well.  No choice, we have no choice.  

                            How long is unemployment going to be where it is?  Another 3 or 4 years maybe? Could be longer either way the effects will be long lasting will they not?

                            I am barely suggesting we be more diligent in monitoring how some of these assistance programs are used in light what will end up being one of the biggest relief efforts in the history of this country.

                            I'm not picking on the poor.  I'm picking on the system in which they operate.(same system rich people operate in)

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 07:23:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You do realize that *if* you truly are (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Purple Priestess

                            middle class... that you live better than 70% of the people on this earth. That you live like a king.

                            You have air conditioning, you have a washer/dryer, a car or two, a roof over your head (one that may very well be the size of a small castle), healthcare (if you are lucky), quality food, clothes galore and recreational time because you only work 40-50 hours a week and have vacation time and sick time and jury time and family time... if necessary.

                            Most people on this earth don't have that.

                            So quit yer bitchin' about how hard it is on you.

                            If you aren't getting ahead... you damn well sure as hell don't blame the "lazy shiftless poor."  They aren't the ones shifting the tax burden around with the hidden income eaters. They aren't the ones who ate your 401k or made your pension go "poof."

                            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                            by bronte17 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 04:14:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Normally I perscribe to exactly what you are (0+ / 0-)

                            saying.  Still do to be honest, but for real though, I am really struggling with the idea that my "complaining" about how it is tough for people in the middle, is getting flack, when this place was to the brim with people talking about how the middle class is getting the shaft over the past 3 or 4 years.  

                            So it's okay to complain about the middle class getting shafted as long as it is in the context of people who have more than us, but not in the context of people who have less.  It's all the same.  

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:35:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The only person getting robbed is you? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MsGrin

                            Really?

                            Apathy: Our country's leading cause of ... whatever ...

                            by Caractacus on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 05:55:06 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what? (0+ / 0-)

                            Are you asking me a question about whether I literally think I am the only person in America getting robbed from above and below?  Or are you asking me to clarify a figurative statement?  

                            The government wastes a considerable amount of money on lower income people.

                            Why does this bother people so much?  Unemployment is at record highs and will be for the forseeable future.  We are going to have record numbers of people taking checks for long periods of time and it is not going to get any better any time soon.  That is the reality of what we face in this country today, right now, and for the next several years, maybe decade.  More and more people coming in to the country working for lower wages, failing schools, rising higher education costs, all this is reality isn't it?  It is reality.  

                            Like I said to someone else, I am barely suggesting we bother to take a look at programs like these as well considering what we are going through.  You would have to be an idiot not to do such a thing.  

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:41:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes, you are blaming the downtrodden (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Clues, Purple Priestess, Caractacus

                      And it is a big deal that there is a reality of the downtrodden and homeless veterans (that the Republicans BTW just vetoed aid for them) and working class poor living out of cars while working two jobs OR THREE.

                      "You work three jobs? ... Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that."
                      —President George W. Bush, to a divorced mother

                      [Edit by bronte17: said by the selected pResident who spent 1/3 of his tenancy on vacation]

                      You want to be a smart ass and note that you are only "asking questions..."  well it's time you wise up and demand answers.  And no, you don't get to come here and be a dick and think that smartaleckness is demanding answers. You have to diligently search and read and study to get answers. No one is going to lay it all out on a plate for you all nice and easy.

                      <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                      by bronte17 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 04:08:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Awesome song .. (0+ / 0-)

                    My comment at YouTube ..

                    This is the price you pay for Reagan's VooDoo economics.
                    30 years of BullShit.

                    Tax the rich.

                    James Carville emerges from the conflagration, riding a burning alligator.

                    by shpilk on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 09:01:35 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  McMurtry's song? Yeah... it's a keeper (0+ / 0-)

                      Have referenced it many times over the years.

                      Cuts to the bone and speaks volumes of truth.  

                      <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                      by bronte17 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 at 12:55:46 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  mims, you're arguments are inconsistent... (15+ / 0-)

                  you invent a new 2010 class of "welfarequeens" to justify extraordinary wage disparity, ...and then you condemn the poor for being "distrustful."

                  In the real world, working mothers also have to fund after-school care and infant daycare as well as babysitters for last minute demands from employers. Many times, the higher-than-benefit-rate wages you say are offered mean no health benefits without payroll dedux.

                  You're arguments are offensive in praise of survival of the fittest amorality. But maybe you also think the unemployed, the poor and the disabled are just bringing the economy crashing down, too...?

                  Blankfein just bought a high-rise duplex for $19 million, and another anonymous blogger attempts to justify his excess. You, mims, are looneytoonz.

                  I'm a Democrat. That's why!

                  by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:26:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I did none of those things (0+ / 0-)

                    just telling the truth.  

                    Point out one thing I said that was not true.  

                    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                    by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:15:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Your amorality is not "true." (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm a Democrat. That's why!

                      by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:06:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm waiting (0+ / 0-)

                        My morality is no concern of yours as there is no possible way you can know anything about me.  Just tell me if I was not telling the truth.  

                        I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                        by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:09:39 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Your "truth" betrays inhuman values. (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          zedaker, Purple Priestess, Caractacus

                          Not humane ones. Maybe you should consider a career change. You betray a lot of animosity. It's only your arrogant bias that I despise.

                          You insist on an an unreasonable way to confront the problem of 20% unemployment in our country. Unemployment benefits are stimulus itself, and you think that employment would actually rise if benefits were reduced and eventually cut out.

                          We've been there!!! All that such ideas produced was unnecessary privation, suffering and death! READ!

                          I'm a Democrat. That's why!

                          by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:20:26 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Why even bother talking to me? (0+ / 0-)

                            20% unemployment.  I gives no shits about the underemployed, so spare me with the "real unemployment" numbers.

                            Now why don't you tell or show me where I said anything that even barely resembles this dumb shit you said.

                            you think that employment would actually rise if benefits were reduced and eventually cut out.

                            It's one thing to disagree but so many of you people don't even bother putting in the effort.

                            Assumption, ridiculous claim, insult, fart noise.

                            You couldn't point out where I said anything about what would make unemployment rise with regard to benefits, if you tried all night.  

                            There are ideals and there is reality, I only deal in reality.  

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:26:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry if I was too complicated: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zedaker, Purple Priestess

                            I was offering a corollary to the argument you advance in your barbaric tirade against (welfare queens or) people who won't take jobs that pay $15 per hour. Your "reality" is barbaric, your arguments are inconsistent and your attitude on a Democratic blog is pitiable.

                            There is, however, a serious argument against the moral hazard of unemployment benefits that you don't even approach.

                            Can you guess it? Your move.

                            I'm a Democrat. That's why!

                            by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:41:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My move (0+ / 0-)

                            Are you kidding?  I didn't even start a moral discussion about benefits.  You're fucking crazy.

                            I said nothing about welfare queens, I gave an accurate description of one of the many scenarios I see all the time, where people are disincentivized to take jobs by the government, and it was hardly a tirade.

                            You make the fucking argument, all I did was point out that poor people take our money too.  And I don't have enough of it to give to either.  Call it barbaric, but you don't pay my bills and until you do, I don't give a fuck about what you think.  

                            That is not even a personal thing about you, do you understand.  You help my finances, you assist in my living my life, you bring me happiness in absolutely no way, shape, or form.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:03:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Let me try this your way. (0+ / 0-)

                            Are you calling me a barbarian and saying I am uncivilized because I am black.

                            You are saying I should be a slave because of the color of my skin and that I am a barbarian.  

                            Your way of thinking will lead to another slave trade.

                            That sounds more like something you would understand.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:04:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ....voila!... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Caractacus

                            wingnuttery personified.

                            Sorry if I upset you, but your suggestions do not comport well with the lessons of our history. And your arguments against unemployment insurance are wide of the mark. This is the price we all should pay for living in a civil society.

                            Irrespective of libertarianism, bear in mind that the 17 poorest rural states (which are overwhelmingly Red States) receive more money back from the government in Federal subsidies than their residents pay to the IRS, and they get this money from the 17 most urban and Blue States which have a higher wage & standard of living. That might suggest to you, according to your flawed and debunked logic, that we should disband the USA as it is presently comprised.

                            You fail to recognize this extremism that you have bought into. Don't be so bitter. Your animus misguides you.

                            I'm a Democrat. That's why!

                            by ezdidit on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 04:03:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It amazes me when I look at real numbers of (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ezdidit

                            growth and decline during conservative and more liberal presidential administrations, that the growth during more liberal ones eclipses the actual decline experienced during conservative ones. That this evidence isn't better employed and deployed by liberals confounds me. I have no immediate sources to prove my assertion here, other than that every time I've seen a "$10,000 investment in 1920, over time results in..." kind of analysis, it comes out way in favor of the real returns during Democratic administrations.

                            You seem to be making the same argument about liberal states and conservative states.

                            Consistency....hmm?

                            Apathy: Our country's leading cause of ... whatever ...

                            by Caractacus on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 06:02:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your full of shit (0+ / 0-)

                            seriously.  You know fuck all about me or what I think beyond what you read.  

                            Stupid fucking buzzwords you pompous jerk.  

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:31:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Are you fucking talking about welfare, (7+ / 0-)

                  or fucking unemployment?  Because if you don't know the difference, there's no reason to fucking listen to you.

                  The question is not whether the chickens needed replacing, the question is whether the fox should have been guarding them in the first place.

                  by happymisanthropy on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:39:03 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  just for reference (8+ / 0-)

                  If the bottom line on the welfare check is bigger than the one on the paycheck, then I probably wouldn’t characterize the job in question as a "good job."

                  But that’s just me.

                  Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

                  by Joe Bob on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:06:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  As one of those (5+ / 0-)

                  receiving assistance at this moment (not unemployment, but disability and food stamps (possible pending Medicaid but my 864.70 per month may be too much money )

                  Let me say with some vehemence,  mim5677. If I was physically/mentally cleared to work, I would take any job that was within my capabilities to do.  Any. Job. As I'm certain most able bodied person about to run out of unemployment benefits would.

                  There are people out there gaming the system, I suppose, but draconian cuts make the innocent suffer as well as those who abuse the system.  

                  It's hard to get into the system because they scrutinize your eligibility very carefully. t benefits. They make it hard.

                  On the 'rich' side however, there are many many more (a much higher percentage, IOW,) who play the game of capitalism in an anti-middle class, overindulgent way.

                  I find the broad brush analogy, and your implication that we are all a drag on the system highly offensive and if it costs me my TU status to say it out loud, I don't really give a good G*d d*mn.

                  "If you wanted to avoid trouble, you should never have sent for me." 'Angelique' "Dark Shadows."

                  by imfunnytoo on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:47:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's okay (0+ / 0-)

                    it is a drag on the system whether one thinks it is a good thing or not.

                    People gaming the system, I have worked with my fair share of people waiting for "medical clearance" and though I know nothing about your situation, there are more than enough that do not see it the way you do.  

                    Not even gaming the system but naturally predisposed to being lazy or not putting in the effort to get it done.  Have you not ever met a lazy person, just someone who couldn't motivate if they were on fire.

                    I haven't made any generalized statements about poor people except to acknowledge what reality is.  

                    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                    by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:55:20 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually, I have met quite a few of these lazy (4+ / 0-)

                      Individuals you speak of, Corporate and management most of them....IQ's of a bobble head doll and just as out of touch as you appear to be. With the same sense of entitlement and feigned outrage at the "poors" who are draining/gaming the system.

                      I haven't made any generalized statements about poor people except to acknowledge what reality is.  

                      the kind of reality people like you subscribe to lead to Holocaust/soylent Green solutions....

                      We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitrolic words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people-MLK

                      by digitalmuse on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:32:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So you get it. (0+ / 0-)

                        You have met lazy people too.  Somehow the ones you have met are all rich.  

                        Well at least we know both types exist.  

                        I'm not actually outraged that poor people are draining the system.  I recognize that they do contribute to the draining of the system but as I said earlier they are only a part.  That appears to be a problem for some of you to acknowledge.  

                        So if my thought process is going to lead to the holocaust, does that mean yours would lead to something like Haiti.  You may have the edge minus the mass killings and ovens that my ideas would automatically lead to, but a life of ever expanding poverty and little to no independence is nothing to celebrate either.

                        I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                        by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:40:04 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          zedaker, Purple Priestess

                          the ones that make the decisions that lead to the lay offs that ultimately affect the middle class who then,oftentimes

                          eventually wind up being the same poor class that you claim are gaming the system.

                          Explain how allowing 1% of the population to have more than 75% of the wealth ultimately creates an independent, working class ?

                          While you are at it what do you do with those who are "poor" ?? Taking away the subsidies that they get now would lead you to third world status a lot faster that way....with people just laying out on the street dying because they can't afford health care, and or food or a place to GO to die.

                          Oh wait maybe you could utilize the surplus created by cutting off all government subsidies to find a way to "dispose" of the poors....

                          One thing is for sure your responses are not by any  stretch of the imagination isolated, they are shared more often than not by the very same people that are making these decisions on a daily basis. The only difference is they don't have the BALLS to allow their views out for public consumption.

                          We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitrolic words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people-MLK

                          by digitalmuse on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:49:48 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Did I say something (0+ / 0-)

                            about taking away their subsidies?  Well, did I?  Did I say anything about disposing of the poor?

                            While you are doing all this whining about shit I didn't even say, try to talk about what I did say, before you start with the Nazi bullshit you fucking asshole.  

                            Talk about my balls....you're over here just making shit up cause your pissed, fucking whiny dick.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:56:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ideas and political positions have (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            NCrissieB, etbnc

                            consequences, mim.

                            The people responding to your positions and ideas here have thought through to the consequences of your positions and ideas, even if you have not stated them clearly yourself.

                            I suspect you have not stated them because you have not thought through them.

                            It makes for a very easy and disingenuous defense, that, "I never said that" argument when the person arguing against you has thought 3 moves ahead of your original statement, while you only defend your most recent move without looking ahead to where it leads.

                            What would be the consequences of actions taken based on your observations and claims to reality? What actions and policies are you implying with your statements and positions? That others have answered these questions in their replies to you can not be dismissed with a wave of your "I never said that" hand.

                            People who have created conditions for pogroms, lynchings, job discrimination, and the very middle class squeeze you lament have been using that trick for centuries. That you lament that squeeze while employing one of the same tricks that contributed to its creation disappoints me.

                            Apathy: Our country's leading cause of ... whatever ...

                            by Caractacus on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 06:14:05 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thinking three moves ahead (0+ / 0-)

                            doesn't mean you get it right.  In some cases things are just as they seem.  

                            It says a lot about the people responding also.  To assume that every word uttered comes with an agenda or is thought out to prove an argument, really does say less about me than it does about the person making the assumption.

                            Implied nothing except the truth.  People don't like to look at all types of truth and they react accordingly, make assumptions and attack, without a good reason.   Happens all the time.  What's worse is that you are defending what you know is happening and saying it is okay when you are only making an assumption about what you think I am implying.  

                            I think I have a more honest position.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:28:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  maybe over the top. (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't really know if you are a whiny dick or not.  That being said you are pinning some shit on me that is tough to do considering you know fuck all about me and my life.  

                            That is something you should look out for.  You could see that I said nothing about who you were as a person until you went all Nazi crazy but I don't expect much from this place.  

                            Not a lot of perspective on the internet.  I don't fault you for saying dumbshit you could never confirm.  I fault you for thinking it's okay to do something like that.

                            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:26:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  The system has drained them. (0+ / 0-)

                          You've got the dynamic right, but the directional arrows backwards.

                          Apathy: Our country's leading cause of ... whatever ...

                          by Caractacus on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 06:05:02 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  Good jobs? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Clues, Purple Priestess, Caractacus

                  I'm taking the cuts, I'm paying more, I've worked with my fair share of people that refused good jobs because they get less than what they make in benefits.

                  Are you fucking serious?

                  No, there aren't a whole lot of poor people turning down good jobs because they pay less than what they get from government aid.

                  Now, they may in fact be turning down jobs that pay less than government assistance, but my disagreement with you is in your absurd characterization of these as "good jobs".  Nobody is getting rich or living a luxurious life from government aid, and the notion that they are is a complete fallacy largely promoted by Ronald Reagan to stir up racial animosity ("Cadillac-driving welfare queens" was the phrase he used).  Finding the rare examples of people who have gamed the system is not proof of a systemic problem of poor people squandering the taxpayers' money.

                  If there is a job out there that pays less than government assistance, then it is not a "good job".  This sounds just idiotic the idea that undocumented workers are stealing good jobs from U.S. citizens.  A job that pays $2/hour or even the current minimum wage is not a "good job".

                  But you go ahead and believe what you want to believe, douche.

                  •  Serious as a heart attack (0+ / 0-)

                    and yes people are turning those jobs down, good jobs.  

                    We don't always have time to dig into details about stuff like this but I will tell you that wage isn't the only issue, security, benefits, type of job all these factors weigh in when people turn them down.  

                    For the purpose of arguing it can be simplified.  

                    It happens.  I don't know who said anything about getting rich off of welfare but it wasn't me.

                    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                    by mim5677 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 08:24:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  You said in an earlier comment (22+ / 0-)

              So a whole bunch of business and poor people are taking money from the government, knowing full well we are in a tight spot.  Shame on the both of them.

              What do you expect the jobless to do? Shame on them for using a safety net? Really?!

              "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

              by MsWings on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:26:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I disagree with you. (8+ / 0-)

              I'm just going to leave it at that because there is too much to say in response.

              "Don't knock football...it's just like chess but without the dice" - john07801

              by voracious on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:35:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Speaking as a member of that middle (34+ / 0-)

              I would far rather that my tax $$ went towards helping some poor families get a nutritious meal or decent housing than to some corporation or to pay for a war. One group actually needs the money, the other does not, and I'd rather that those who actually need the money get it.

              But then, I'm a bleeding-heart liberal and progressive, and I just want my taxes to support my values.

              Living kidney donor needed; type B, O, or incompatible (with paired donation). Drop me a note (see profile).

              by Kitsap River on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:36:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Helping those people helps us. (9+ / 0-)

                What happens to our cities, towns and neighborhoods when more and more people become homeless? When they are hopeless crime goes up. Who wants to  live in a neighborhood of empty foreclosed homes? Do we enjoy abandoned houses tempting squatters?

                If we can keep people fed, housed and surviving we will all be better off.

                I just don't see how keeping a few people in $8million homes helps anyone.

                "Don't knock football...it's just like chess but without the dice" - john07801

                by voracious on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:38:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Kitsap, Kitsap, Kitsap... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                texasmom, zedaker

                heart on your sleeve again.  ;-) It's almost as if you have had struggles which through which you understand the plight of others stuggling.  

                My hat is always off to you and your ability to get through tough times, my friend.  Oh, and for your compassion for others.

                "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

                by MsGrin on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:50:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I get that (0+ / 0-)

                but I would rather more of my taxes go to me and less of my taxes go to rich and poor people.  

                What you said makes sense but it doesn't offer enough choices.  I want to get more of what I worked to get.  The more I kick out to whoever, the less I am able to make the most out of what I have.  

                I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:01:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  mim, you're on the wrong website. (5+ / 0-)

              "...how is what you're saying different than what Republicans like Sharron Angle are saying?"

              I'm a Democrat. That's why!

              by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:01:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  warning: wingnut...assholery above (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Josiah Bartlett, drewfromct

              I'm a Democrat. That's why!

              by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:27:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Doesn't really work that way (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zedaker

              You know what. Places like Scandinavia and Germany and Japan and Israel that have much stronger social programs and safety nets for the poor and much higher taxes for the rich are really not bad places to live. They have their problems too, of course, but their economies are usually just as strong as ours if not stronger and most people are in the middle doing better than the middle here. They look at the quality of society as a whole and the programs that help the poor also help the middle. Seems that is the way to go.

              FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. Read the PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT Newsletter

              by mole333 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:00:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  "Why not bacon and eggs for breakfast?" ... (0+ / 0-)

              ... the Chicken asked of the Pig. "That way we both give up something."

          •  There's a problem with starving to death (27+ / 0-)

            It actually takes about a month. Meanwhile, you have to find that place no one can see you. With all the rules prohibiting homeless people from using parks, etc. it's hard to find an empty spot.

            Mim5, the difference between the rich guy and the poor folks is the rich guy will still have food, shelter, medical care, a job... While adding to the number of people who may eventually need help when they run out of unemployment insurance.

            As an RN who has worked a variety of public and private hospitals, as well as home care, you have a very idealistic and unrealistic view of people who need public assistance. Are there some welfare cheats?  Sure.

            They are greatly overwhelmed by the ones with physical, mental and emotional deficiencies.

            Too much sanity may be madness. The maddest of all is to see the world as it is and not as it should be. Don Quixote "Man of La Mancha"

            by Ginny in CO on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:25:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In your State, the more notorious (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GN1927

              welfare cheats were fundie LDS, hardly the usual picture of welfare queens.

              Excellence is to do a common thing in an uncommon way. Booker T. Washington

              by conlakappa on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:57:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Well those people are covered by (0+ / 0-)

              SSDI in a lot of cases aren't they.  That view is not as unrealistic as you think.  Whereas you work around medical issues I work with the same people you mentioned, plus general population, and the fraudulent cases are not even the big deal.

              What about the stagnant, job refusers, non-searchers, it isn't like there are just two categories, cheaters and non-cheaters, there are maybe a hundred ways to take advantage of the system and it doesn't require a majority to mess it up.  

              I can't tell you how many halfway houses there are that are charging $710 a month to the taxpayer for a shared room that shouldn't get more than $210.  

              The minute a person gets a job the halfway houses collect that money from the people, who are already poor.  So what do they do....often times they hold out for RN salaries.  And don't even get me fucking started on how hard it is to find a job much less have a poor or disabled person be considered for a job at a private hospital.  

              Haven't had a solid work history?  Been working hard to find work, training, things like that...."We are sorry to inform you that we have chosen someone else for the position.  Someone with a home, money, a husband/wife, and a dog.  We know you need it more and would stay longer, but you are poor and or disabled, so maybe next time"

              Idealistic and unrealistic...puh-lease...and by the way those of us in the industries don't call mental, emotional, or physical disabilities, "deficiencies".  That is my area of expertise so I don't want to hassle you about it, but unrealistic and idealistic are about as far from what I have going on as you can get.  

              I'm in the trenches with the rest of you and this is what I see.

              I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

              by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:41:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO GET SSDI?! (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Louise, zedaker

                if you're applying for physical issues, you gotta be pretty much dead to get in on the first application - if you need dialysis or have end-stage cancer or HIV, you're golden.  If NOT, you're gonna spend a couple years waiting to get qualified in most places, maybe more.  There are very, very, very few exceptions to that.

                Oh, and as far as hiring goes, Fortune 500 companies pretty much all are refusing to consider resumes from people who are not currently employed - saves 'em time and they think they're getting the cream of the crop that way.

                "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

                by MsGrin on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:55:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I do (0+ / 0-)

                  know how hard it is to get SSDI....as it should be.

                  I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                  by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:02:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  'hard' and 'fair' are not synonomous (0+ / 0-)

                    and often 'hard' is too much for people who are sick - a hell of a lot of people die before being granted benefits.  I don't think that's 'as it should be' for a safety net.

                    THAT kind of statement is why people have been jumping on you: you assert a lack of compassion for people who actually NEED assistance.

                    "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

                    by MsGrin on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 06:44:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Link for my comment below. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ImpeachKingBushII, conlakappa

          http://www.corporations.org/...

          Link for yours please. Sorry, but it sounds like Republican talking point to me.

          www.yesweSTILLcan.org

          by divineorder on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:13:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hope You're Not a Farmer (7+ / 0-)

          The most heavily government-supported segment of society.

          Where is your evidence that "welfare is out of control."  Welfare seems to be doing the best it can to keep people from rioting in the streets due to hunger and other blemishes of "laziness."

          I'd say the right wing of what used to be the Republican Party (one has no evidence that the Republican Party exists anymore -- no links required) is what's out of control.

          "ingratiation and access . . . are not corruption." -- Justice Kennedy (Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 2010)

          by Limelite on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:27:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How do you define "welfare"? (3+ / 0-)

          The traditional Aid to Families with Dependent Children? Or some other program(s)?

          Because it's impossible for me to tell if your assertion is correct without seeing your terms. (You could add statistics if you wanted to take the time, but I could google them for myself, if I knew what the categories were.)

          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

          by Louise on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:35:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Shame on people who without those (3+ / 0-)

          non-corporate welfare cheques would be on the streets?

          I will pray that your heart opens to those you now view as "other."

                  Sadly,
                  Heather

          Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it to whom.

          by Chacounne on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:59:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That would be horrible (0+ / 0-)

            indeed, but I don't think I suggested they not get the checks.  I just pointed out that I pay for subsidies for the rich and the poor and I don't feel better about either one.  

            On top of all the money that gets taken from me, I donate, money, time, and ideas to help rich and poor people.

            I have been getting a lot of shit over a true statement.  A lot of people have called me names and made all kinds of suggestions about what I want, but the reality is what I am saying is true.  

            Middle class people pay for it coming and going.  I don't see how anyone could take offense to that.  

            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:21:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Well We Can't Cut It Much, It's Too Powerful So-- (13+ / 0-)

        retask much of the military complex onto climate change and alt energy.

        These represent actual existential threats to the country, unlike some brown guys with some vest bombs. We can use the MIC's expertise making the problem seem bad enough to the public to keep and maintain support for the change in national policy we really do need to make.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:19:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Parts of the stimulus package (31+ / 0-)

      were indeed designed to dismantle some components of welfare reform.  This went relatively under the radar, but your assertion is correct.  What is incorrect is the underlying asssumption that increasing welfare and dismantling parts of welfare reform during a severe recession is somehow problematic.

      Don't look to welfare recipients as the problem in this country.  That is a distraction and strawman set up by the right.

      climate.gov---POTUS' New Science-Based Climate Change Agency

      by GN1927 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:13:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not the problem (0+ / 0-)

        but part of it and not a distraction at all.  That is real money and it is a good chunk.  Hardly the making of a strawman or a talking point.  

        I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

        by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:24:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A good chunk? (15+ / 0-)

          That is real money and it is a good chunk.

          You've never had to feed and house your family on unemployment, have you?

          "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

          by MsWings on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:29:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no but my mom did (0+ / 0-)

            but that good chunk I was talking about wasn't based on individual families I was talking in a bigger picture sense.  

            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:37:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Lots of people homeless and starving (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Josiah Bartlett, conlakappa

              does create a bigger picture than just a few.

              "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

              by MsWings on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:41:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  it does (0+ / 0-)

                lots of rich people are cutting jobs and buying stuff, lots of homeless people are hungry, lots of rich people are doing good and lots of poor people are eating well, lazy, and taking advantage of the system.

                I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:23:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hmmm (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MsWings

                  During the healthcare debate, Wendel Potter had his moment...watching people get medical treatment in a barn.  What will it take regarding this deficit reduction strategy...for those who characterize the poor, disabled, and unemployed as 'lazy'?

                  "If you wanted to avoid trouble, you should never have sent for me." 'Angelique' "Dark Shadows."

                  by imfunnytoo on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:30:34 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well if (0+ / 0-)

                    someone says a poor person is lazy does that automatically make it a characterization of all poor people.  

                    What is harder to believe that poor people never take advantage of the system or that they do.  One of those statements is pretty concrete and the other has wiggle room, which matches up with reality.

                    Poor people can be lazy, people with disabilities can be lazy, they can I have seen it, they would even admit it to you.

                    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                    by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:47:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sure - there are lazy people. (0+ / 0-)

                      But that's not the point. If there are 10 jobs available and 1,000 people unemployed, when the jobs are filled there will still be 990 people unemployed. What difference does it make if 100 of them are lazy - there aren't enough jobs for everyone who wants to work!

                      "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

                      by MsWings on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 11:01:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Quit flapping yer gums (9+ / 0-)

          and provide some specifics.

          How much is a "good chunk"?  How does that compare to the "good chunk" taken by large corporations in federal assistance and tax breaks?  How does it compare to the amount the moneied classes don't pay in capital gains taxes and the amount we've lost in revenue from the lapse of the estate tax?

          Who REALLY is robbing the middle and working classes?  Here's a clue -  watch the money and see where it goes.

          You want to fight over a penny in the dirt, while someone is really grabbing up all the wealth in the country and laughing at you for that.  If you really think that welfare recipients are the ones eating your lunch, you've been played for a patsy.

          Quit flapping your gums with repugnant talking points, and do the hard work of tracking down where the money in this country all went, before you embarrass yourself in public even further.

          •  fuck you (0+ / 0-)

            Welfare doesn't costs us anything, forget it.  That is just free money that nobody misses.  

            I remember a few years ago when I got a call from a woman whose husband got laid off by his construction company again for the season.  He just took unemployment till the summer came back around, no big deal, he is probably the exception and I doubt anyone else does that.  

            I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

            by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:27:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You first, I insist (0+ / 0-)

              First of all, you don't know the difference between welfare and unemployment insurance.  This makes you something akin to an idiot.

              Second, when you make repeated posts with moronic claims that the poor are killing the middle class, and someone asks you to provide any data showing that, and you answer "fuck you", you've just certified yourself as a troll.

              Congratulations on your accomplishments here today.  Normally one would have to peruse the literature at the walmart checkout counter for a great length of time to produce such astute analysis.

              •  Why don't I know the (0+ / 0-)

                difference between welfare and unemployment?  

                I don't think I said anything remotely close to the "poor are killing the middle class"

                Why would I give you stats if you would just ignore them anyway.  

                You show me where I said the poor are killing the middle class and I will give you whatever you want, just come close.  Doesnt' have to be exact, even a loose relation, and I will work with you.  

                I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:05:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What is the relationship (0+ / 0-)

                  between the first and second paragraphs here?  Why are you discussing unemployment if you mean to speak about welfare?

                  Welfare doesn't costs us anything, forget it.  That is just free money that nobody misses.  

                  I remember a few years ago when I got a call from a woman whose husband got laid off by his construction company again for the season.  He just took unemployment till the summer came back around, no big deal, he is probably the exception and I doubt anyone else does that.  

                  I'll amend my statement to say that you think the poor are helping to kill the middle class, and you must think they're contributing enough to that to keep mentioning it over and over and over.

                  If I am working harder for less and paying more for less, I don't see the harm in pointing out that I am getting it from both sides.  

                  I think you are engaging in "truthiness".  That you have absolutely no clue what part of your tax burden goes to maintain programs for the poor, and that you fail to realize that many of the nouveau poor are working class people who were slammed in The Great Economic Robbery of 2009.  I also think that given a choice whether to blame the rich (as this diary does), or the poor, you've chosen the poor.  Sure, you give lip service to the robbery when you say the rich do it too, but you've not made one comment supporting this diary in any way, and many in protest that the poor are hurting you.

                  If you did the research and found that for every 100.00 you pay in taxes, only 3.50 of it went for programs for the poor, would you still spend so much time here trying to make people believe the poor are sticking it to the middle class?

                  •  What I think is (0+ / 0-)

                    that I pay out both ways.  I do not begrudge a millionaire spending his money and firing 1,000 people anymore than I do a poor person getting a check when they know they will never contribute to earning that money, whether they do it intentionally or not.  

                    What I do have a problem with is people in similar financial situations to me acting like rich people are the bain of our existence when the poor are getting my money too.  

                    I don't see what is wrong with that.  

                    Yes if I found that 3.5 cents of every dollar was going to programs for the poor I would still acknowledge that I would much rather have it come to me first.  

                    I do think they are contributing enough.  That doesn't bother me, it isn't like I see a poor person and spit on them or assume they are lazy, it is less about the people than it is about the way the system lets people operate.  Do you get the difference.  

                    I'd give up 30 cents on the dollar if it went to people getting ahead, but it doesn't.  That's what the tax breaks are for with rich people.  It helps them get ahead, it doesn't work that way for the poor, they get just enough to get by and that is a waste of money to me.  

                    If you tell me I can give 30 cents on the dollar and it will eventually elminate poverty, I'd throw my money at you, but that just isn't reality.  They take 3.5 cents and poverty is getting worse at a ridiculous pace and they have no plans to change it.  

                    What would you have me do?  Tax the rich and give it to the poor?  I don't think so, that is still my money.  

                    The second paragraph was just an example of what I thought was someone gaming the system.  Taking unemployment for the winter instead of getting a job.

                    I wanted to find a place where people bashed Obama on a daily basis....so I joined the Daily Kos.

                    by mim5677 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 02:08:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Bush legacy "leave no child a dime"... (13+ / 0-)

        ...the repubs learned their lesson well: "Leave no safety net intact".

        "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:25:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No no, GN, The unemployed, disabled and poor (6+ / 0-)

        are bringing this country to its knees! Not to mention elders on Social Security

        wingnut assholes are shameless.

        I'm a Democrat. That's why!

        by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:30:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, they do and thankfully so. (0+ / 0-)

      I don't even want to imagine the increased suffering, despair and death that would wash over the poorest of the poor in our country if those checks stopped going out.

      Though I won't play dumb.  I know you see that fact as a problem.  I won't mince words: I find you vile and utterly disgusting.

      Between excessive citizen activism and excessive trust or passivity, the former is far preferable to the latter. - Glenn Greenwald

      by An Affirming Flame on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:56:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nice find, diarist! Another contras of the rich (9+ / 0-)

    strata and working folks.

    Naomi Klein sounds off on the rich strata here.

    www.yesweSTILLcan.org

    by divineorder on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:08:57 AM PDT

    •  wow sure glad she's on our side! (5+ / 0-)

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:32:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I heart Naomi Klein (10+ / 0-)

      What a brave, brave woman.

      If you haven't, you have to read The Shock Doctrine

      It's what's being done to us.

      And, it explains the sheer cruelty of what is being called

      Austerity Measures  really mean

      Kill Social Safety Nets, impoverish/enslave/weaken the population into submission.

      Or that's how I read Naomi's research.

      And I highly recommend you all get up to speed and research Peter G Peterson.  He is the Michael Moore of the IMF and the heartless neoliberals (Summers, Geithner, etc) that want NO social safety nets, and who destroy economies so multi-nationals can scoop up assets for ten cents on the dollar.

      And who will buy ours?  Well, there are bus loads of Chinese touring the country and buying up foreclosed properties.

      Keep your eyes open when you go to NNroots in Las Vegas.  The employees at the hotel I stayed at in LV last week had mostly Asian workers, not Latinos.

      So, I am assuming they were all legal immigrants.

      Geez, I ranted again.  I am boiling mad that so many are suffering these days.

      •  Glad she wrote Shock Doctrine, but I already (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, ImpeachKingBushII

        knew what was happening. Really, it is not rocket science.

        She does write well though, and makes the information more accessible to non academics.

        As for the busloads of Chinese property buyers, love to see a link on that. And hey, we "reap what we sow."

        Peace.

        www.yesweSTILLcan.org

        by divineorder on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:10:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  when you stop getting "boiling mad"... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, ezdidit

        ...then you have a problem. Anyone who isn't outraged isn't paying attention. Or they're one of the corporate welfare recipient elites. That makes them everybody's problem because crap rolls down hill, meaning the ones at the bottom always get hit the hardest in a 3rd depression.(I didn't say it Krugman did yesterday)!

        "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:11:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  That's his money, not J&J's. What was he (10+ / 0-)

    supposed to do, subsidize their jobs?  If they were needed, they would still have them.  This is demagoguery.

    There is plenty to criticize J&J for [like concealing the fact that they sold tainted children's medicine].  

    This is not one of them.  

    Strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings, but in maintaining one's balance in spite of them. - Clausewitz

    by SpamNunn on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:09:55 AM PDT

  •  Well of course (12+ / 0-)

    He'll be able to use the corporate tax refund he gets for the "expense" of the layoffs to make the purchase.  What part of "this is how capitalism is supposed to work" isn't clear?

    We who have been nothing shall be all. This is the final struggle. ~E. Pottier

    by ActivistGuy on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:10:17 AM PDT

  •  That graph of Florida (4+ / 0-)

    looks suspiciously like the anticipated route of the oil now flowing out of the Gulf.

  •  OMG. He doesn't have a fucking clue. (4+ / 0-)

    In about a month or two he couldn't give away that property for free.

    No one will believe it's the Blues if you wear a suit, `less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it.

    by dov12348 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:15:41 AM PDT

  •  "A Family Company" nt (0+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:16:54 AM PDT

  •  RE: Rising sea levels: (10+ / 0-)

    8.5 million is petty cash for most CEO's.  When the waters rise, or the oil and Corexit get brought inland by storms and poison his land, he'll just buy other property elsewhere.

    The inadequate is the enemy of the necessary.

    by JRandomPoster on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:19:56 AM PDT

  •  It'll trickle down (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1, kurt, happymisanthropy

    A few of those people will be offered jobs to maintain the compound. They might even get a room in the servants' quarter.

  •  I bet a lot of Weldon's fellow swells would (11+ / 0-)

    say privately that the layoffs make the purchase feel even more rewarding. Like Carly Fiorina. When asked how she felt about her massive H-P layoffs, the flinthearted Fiorina wished she'd done it sooner. These people get off on this stuff. Gives them a sense of immortality or something.

    As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever were to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it. --Bulwer-Lytton Contest entry

    by Wom Bat on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:33:00 AM PDT

  •  nice course of action (0+ / 0-)

    for someone who's running the company that is always touting itself as being "family run" and "trying to do the right thing."

    fuckers

  •  Big Big Money in Lost Tree (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1

    My husband works there from time to time...very exclusive.

  •  Treason (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kitsap River, Hear Our Voices

    When does this behavior edge over into treason?  Bringing down your own countrymen for your personal gain seems to me to be a form of it.  But that's my personal opinion.  

  •  I understand exactly what you are saying,. (8+ / 0-)

    Regardless of whether he is using personal assets or not, it sends a poor message.

    A few years ago I worked as a sales rep for a successful family owned construction business. They announced that money was tight and they were going to have to cut benefits to all field employees and reduce their pay by 5%. That Friday, instead of delivering the paychecks themselves they hired a courier to deliver them to the field. Why? Because they were taking their family on a 1 month vacation to Fiji. Although my financial circumstances were not affected I was thoroughly disgusted.

  •  His buying property has nothing to do with laying (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skrekk, MGross

    off workers. Trying to connect the two is silly.

    •  In 2 words...Bull Shit. (6+ / 0-)

      How do you think he's going to pay for it? Hmm, let me think. I know, the bonus he'll get for raising the stock price a dime because he laid off the workers.

      Are you lucid?

      F the right wing whiners. I don't care about them any more they can all F themselves for all I care.

      by UndercoverRxer on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:48:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you awake? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skrekk

        Do you know anything about how to run a business?  Laying off people when demand goes down is a normal process.  Doing anything else is a dereliction of duty to the company and stockholders.  Try ECON 101 it may help you understand better.

        •  Why yes, I do. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RustyCannon

          I ran an 80 person semi-independent department (responsible for profit and loss and $3 million budget) in a large medical establishment for 15 yrs before returning to get a PhD in Health Economics and Policy.

          Don't give me that bullshit about the fiduciary duty, that was a Milton Friedman invention, never a law. Or even a FASB rule.

          And I guess you're unaware of the recent studies showing that cutting work force also pretty much crushes your chances of success when business turns around.

          These bastards don't respond to anything other than the current quarters stock projections, and that's why American business is so screwed up.

          F the right wing whiners. I don't care about them any more they can all F themselves for all I care.

          by UndercoverRxer on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:39:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Do you seriously think that multinational (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clues, UndercoverRxer

          corporations only lay people off when business takes a downturn? They have been steadily cutting their workforces since Reagon declared war on the working class. They lay off people to make the short term balance sheet look a little better. Then they collect their bonus and move on. They can have record profits and be laying people off. Executives are compensated for the short term profits they show, not their contributions to the long term viability of the situation they leave behind. The executives don't hang around long and therefore have no loyalty to the long term picture.

          These corporations are so big, they can get away with this for a while. They are destroying the company, but the damage won't really be seen for 2-3 years down the road. They are also destroying the people who are left behind to try to continue producing and supporting the products the company turns out. When the executives realize the damage that has been done, they re-hire by outsourcing work to China and India. And once again, they get bonuses for doing that.

          These companies are so gigantic, the normal laws of supply and demand affect them far differently than medium and small businesses. When they see demand wane, they just throw a few more million at their advertising budget.

          Teabaggistan: Mythical place where down is up, black is white, and reality never intrudes

          by RustyCannon on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:14:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Either the diarist's calculations of (0+ / 0-)

        "number of jobs saved" are a bit off, or he's unaware that even rich people have mortgages - very few pay cash for their homes.  The real calculation would be the payment differential between the old mortgage and the new one, which is something we don't know.  To save just one $40K job, that monthly payment would have to increase by roughly $5K.

        I agree with the article that CEOs are grossly overpaid, and that bonuses during a recession are insane.

    •  You mean they're totally disconnected? (0+ / 0-)

      Scenario #1: JNJ pays Mr. Weldon $8.45million and lays off X number of workers. (Yes, it’s immaterial what Mr. Weldon does with his $8.45million. He could spend it on hookers and blow instead of beachfront property.)

      Scenario #2: JNJ pays Mr. Weldon $1million and lays off X minus 200 number of workers.

      If I’m a stockholder, is the end result I see not the same in either case? The corporation’s balance sheet is the same either way. I guess the only downside would be if Mr. Weldon weren’t "properly incentivized" by only $1million.

      Meanwhile, maybe my own employer doesn’t know how to run a business. In response to business conditions, they had the choice of laying off another 20 people or cutting salaries 10% across the board. They chose the latter and the company is better off for it.

      That employees should be laid off when revenues decline is not an immutable law of economics. It’s a choice employers make. Sometimes it’s the only rational choice and sometimes there are options. Paying Weldon multi-millions, rather than using that money to retain other staff, is a choice JNJ made. One that I think reflects poorly on their corporate values.

      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

      by Joe Bob on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:38:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not always when revenues decline (0+ / 0-)

        how about when the warehouse is full. If there are no sales due to the economy you just can't pay people to sit around and do nothing. Look what that did to the car companies. There can be no such thing as gaurenteed employment.

        If we all just stopped voting would they all just go away?

        by longislandny on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:55:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, what Joe Bob says plus (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joe Bob

        OK, a rant complete with facts

        Fortune 500 earnings soared this year, despite a feeble recovery, as companies cut costs fast and deeply. From Goldman Sachs to Google, here are the biggest winners

        .
        http://countusout.wordpress.com/...

        Record profits, highest increase in cash-on-hand since the 1950s and 60s.  And the worst unemployment/recession since the Great Depression.

        Something doesn't quite add up if the curtain is pulled back.

        But, hey, you decide.  

        Below is an overview of two economic factors.  The dramatic, even historic, rise in cash-on-hand percentage/quantity holdings by major corporations and the dramatic rise in unemployment.  The two charts above seem to indicate a relationship.

        In fact, US unemployment seems to boost the cash-on-hand health of the very corporations who have laid off American workers.

        If this is true, why would we expect to see the millions of unemployed ever restored to the jobs and salaries they once earned and enjoyed.

        Even more unsettling is this question:  If most corporate boards and officers benefit from profitability that seems to be bolstered by not hiring and paying living wages to American workers, and if the GOP is more corporate friendly, who are these wealthiest of the wealthy going to back in November.  Democrats or Republicans?

        I think we are doomed.  So, what can we do about it.  I don't know, I am asking you.

        What can we do about this apparent Wall Street driven travesty?

        Rather than pontificate, let's listen to the words of the experts:

        The Federal Reserve reported Thursday that nonfinancial companies had socked away $1.84 trillion in cash and other liquid assets as of the end of March, up 26% from a year earlier and the largest-ever increase in records going back to 1952. Cash made up about 7% of all company assets, including factories and financial investments, the highest level since 1963.

        "Stockholders don't want them to keep sitting on cash at a zero return," said Paul Kasriel, an economist at Northern Trust. "They're going to use it," either to increase hiring and investment or to make payouts to shareholders in the form of dividends or share buybacks, he said.

        Earlier this week, retailer Target Corp. raised its quarterly dividend to 25 cents a share from 17 cents, saying that the company's cash holdings were "well above the amount needed for optimal reinvestment in our core business."

        http://online.wsj.com/...

        To demonstrate how layoffs can be good for share values:

        Target Corp., the popular discount retailer, is one of the latest chains to announce major layoffs.....

        Soon after the company released its press statement, Target shares closed up 19 cents at $33.34 per share on the New York Stock Exchange today.

        http://abcnews.go.com/...

        The gist of the above-cited WSJ article seems to indicate that the cash-on-hand will be used to better the companies standing via higher dividends paid to shareholders and/or acquisition, not necessarily to employ or better pay employees.

        Earnings for companies in S&P 500 surged 176% in the fourth quarter of 2009 and probably rose another 44% in the first quarter of this year, according to Bloomberg data. And that rise in earnings has been accompanied by a rise in cash holdings.

        A recent analysis by Standard & Poor’s Financial Services LLC found that companies in the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index have some $831.2 billion on hand - 36.3% more than they had in December 2007 when the recession officially began.

        Now investors are pressuring many of these corporate cash-hoarders to do something with the money they have on hand. Some of it will go towards the purchase of new equipment, the hiring of more staff, share repurchase programs, and acquiring rivals. But it’s also a safe bet that a large portion of that newfound wealth will be paid back directly to investors through dividends.

        “Dividends show what companies are really saying, how they feel about the economy and their prospects,” Tom Wirther, senior investment officer at Chemung Canal Trust Co., told Bloomberg.

        Over the past week alone, a record 22 companies announced they would reward investors with higher dividend payouts.

        http://www.dailymarkets.com/...

        A thorough reading of this DailyMarkets report will expose the companies flush with cash and paying higher dividends to its shareholders.  Below you will find the layoff history for two of these companies, Kellogg and Johnson & Johnson.

        Kellogg

        Kelloggs dividend increase:

        Consumer staple Kellogg Company (K: 52.68 0.18 0.34%) - founded in 1906 - has paid dividends since 1986. On April 23, the company increased its payout by 8% to $0.405 per share. Kellogg currently yields about 2.72%.

        ibid. DailyMarket

        The Kellogg history of layoffs beginning in 1996 to the present, in my opinion, is representative of how corporations seized the opportunities enabled by NAFTA:  Layoff American workers, eliminate benefits, lower wages, and/or offshore mfg.  Below is a link where you can review Kellogg's dismantling of American jobs.

        SATURDAY, MARCH 28, 2009

        Kellogg layoffs in Omaha

        Kellogg said it eliminated the jobs of some production workers at its cereal plant in Omaha, expanding layoffs that began earlier this month...

        The Battle Creek, Mich.-based company declined to disclose the number of workers who lost their jobs. But most of them were eligible for retirement, said Kellogg spokeswoman Kris Charles.

        http://layofftracker.blogspot.com/...

        Posted: November 19, 2009
        Kellogg plant in Cary begins layoffs

        http://www.wral.com/...

        For an insight of how jobs have been lost to American Kellogg workers, read Kelloggs layoff history beginning in 1996.  I think we can thank NAFTA SHAFTA for this:
        http://www.wsws.org/...

        Johnson & Johnson

        J&J's dividend increase:

        J&J last week boosted its dividend payout by 10.2% and the stock currently yields 3.32%.

        http://www.dailymarkets.com/...

        SATURDAY, APRIL 11, 2009

        Johnson & Johnson cuts 900 jobs
        Health-care giant Johnson & Johnson has eliminated about 900 positions from its U.S. pharmaceuticals unit, becoming the latest drug maker to slash costs amid generic competition and pricing pressures.

        The job cuts represented about 6% of the U.S. work force.

        HEALTH CARE November 3, 2009, 2:08PM EST text size: TT
        Johnson & Johnson to Overhaul Pharma, Cut 7,000 Jobs

        The huge health-care conglomerate has been hit hard by the recession, but it also needs to become more efficient.

        http://www.businessweek.com/...

        As an aggregious aside:

        J&J CEO Weldon Bought $8.45M Waterfront Lot as He Planned 8,100 Layoffs

        By Jim Edwards | Nov 3, 2009

        http://industry.bnet.com/...

        Of course, I can go on and on demonstrating this seemingly related trend for the companies boasting higher dividends paid to shareholders this year and their massive layoffs since 2007.

        Most telling and easy to see is a journey through a wonderful service provided by Forbes magazine.

        You can go to this link to view the month by month, year by year layoff histories of the Fortune 500 companies.
        http://search.forbes.com/...

        Also helpful, although a bit cumbersome, is this site begun in November, 2008:
        http://layofftracker.blogspot.com/...

        Is it possible that the gains on Wall Street and higher dividends paid reflect the benefits of massive layoffs?

        And, if so, how does this bode for well-paying re-employment?

        Where is the plan from either the Democrats or the Republicans to create something/anything to fully employ those about to lose their unemployment benefits, especially in areas of the country where there are NO JOBS.

        Will we be seeing trucks piled with families and possessions harkening back to the days of The Grapes of Wrath?

        Hasn't history proven time and again that mass unemployment/poverty creates unnecessary societal chaos?  increased crime?  suicides?  spousal/child abuse?  addictions?  theft?  and the tax burden of increased incarcerations?

    •  I'll do it in seven words: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RustyCannon

      Profit is theft from the working class.

      Between excessive citizen activism and excessive trust or passivity, the former is far preferable to the latter. - Glenn Greenwald

      by An Affirming Flame on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:52:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is really funny. I thought when you had (0+ / 0-)

        profits you expanded your business and hired more people.   Thanks for setting me straight.  

        •  It doesn't matter what you do with it, (0+ / 0-)

          profit is created by paying the workers less than the value that they produce.

          Between excessive citizen activism and excessive trust or passivity, the former is far preferable to the latter. - Glenn Greenwald

          by An Affirming Flame on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:13:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

            •  It's pretty basic math, nothing outrageous. (0+ / 0-)

              There's nothing magical about profit.  It comes from somewhere, you know.  You don't have to read Das Kapital in its entirety to understand that profit is the difference between the value of what a worker produces and what he or she is paid.

              Socialists, like me, argue that it is up to the workers, who create all value, to decide if there will be profits and, if so, what the workers will do with them.  Capitalists/owners, their sole function being to manage capital/profits, are no longer necessary and haven't been for centuries.

              Between excessive citizen activism and excessive trust or passivity, the former is far preferable to the latter. - Glenn Greenwald

              by An Affirming Flame on Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 10:18:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  He is buying beachfront property in FL? (4+ / 0-)

    well perhaps a higher power will correct the economic inequity that we cant....  could be that his brand new beachfront property in florida is soon going to be covered in lovely BP OIL....

    "The masses are asses" - Unknown

    by KnotIookin on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 09:48:23 AM PDT

  •  It is HIS money -- not the company's (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ScienceMom, MGross

    It may be tone deaf given the economic climate, but he can do whatever he wants with his money.

  •  it's the fault of the 8,100 Workers (8+ / 0-)

    really!  If they had been captains of their own future taken a risk and started their own businesses they wouldn't have been at the mercy of William Weldon.

    /snark

    unfortunately it's a right wing meme that you are going to hear .... because we all are supposed to own our own businesses and not work for anyone... and if those businesses fail OR if we are laid off by someone wanting property in FL it's our own fault.

    for them, unless you are a winner .. it is always your fault (that's why you need tort reform - how dare you take from the winners, just because you were injured by them - that too, is your own fault)

  •  Raise his taxes $8.5 million. There. Fixed. (6+ / 0-)
    •  How about 90% on anything over (0+ / 0-)

      $3 million for the year. That would allow him to still be stinking rich and would have kept a few more people employed (since no one in their right mind would actually design their pay to kick them into the 90% bracket), making the company stronger and more sustainable.

      Teabaggistan: Mythical place where down is up, black is white, and reality never intrudes

      by RustyCannon on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 01:00:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Rec list? (5+ / 0-)

    I must be the only one who clicks links. The story is dated November 3, 2009. The sale of the house was noted by the Palm Beach Daily News on October 27, 2009.

    In case you had not noticed, it is June 30, 2010. Interesting story, but hardly Rec list material. I am far more concerned about what is going on in the Gulf.

  •  Why aren't jobs guaranteed for life at J&J? (0+ / 0-)

    That's not fair what they do to workers.

  •  What a company values (8+ / 0-)

    is very easily seen by where it spends its money.

    Anyone pointing out that this is the CEO's money and he can do with it as he likes, is missing the larger point.

    Executive compensation, even in this downturn, is rising at a ridiculous rate.  The ratio between executive and workers' compensation is outlandish.  The issue is not that some rich guy is buying property, it's how this guy became so rich in the first place.

    The company, on the one hand, will cry about the poor economy and use it as an excuse to fire workers or offshore them.  At the same time, they will award the executives more and more money and benefits.

    This has been a major factor in turning American business from long-range planning and stability, to a view that only quarter-end numbers matter, and any action taken to raise those numbers is good for business.  When those numbers are high, executive compensation skyrockets.  The executives don't give a flip if it weakens the company, they've grabbed their millions and gone.

  •  But this is the new "American Dream"...Yes? (0+ / 0-)

    "Try not to become a man of success, but rather to become a man of value." ~ Albert Einstein

    by LamontCranston on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:06:33 AM PDT

  •  nice catch... (6+ / 0-)

    On CNBC just today, I heard this confirmed. Corporations are sitting on tons of cash, and another trader said the amount was 2 standard deviations above the norm for cash on hand.

    I've also heard one trader, Yuri Landesman, on CNBC say outright that he and other traders are waiting for a big republican in November, and then he expected a market bump.

    Call me out on a CT claim and ban me if you wish, but those aren't my words at all.

    What has a "political realist" done for you lately?

    by papicek on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:11:04 AM PDT

    •  Corporations have a stake ... (8+ / 0-)

      in helping the Republicans make America fail so that they can regain power.

      It's all about the power.

      Gone: other things to do.

      by emsprater on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:12:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's campaign cash (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      papicek

      They're still selecting marketing firms for the new ad campaigns they'll be running during election season. Now the the Supreme Court has said they can spend as much as they want to in order to engage in the "marketplace of ideas," they need to keep some ready money on hand.

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

      by Louise on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:46:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  not to worry I've seen that first-hand... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kurt, papicek

      ...one company I worked there for two years my boss's net worth was a cool $500 million in the bank and no telling how much he had in tax shelters. He came to work upset one day and laid-off 25% of the company across the board, without batting an eye. Lots of people were crying that day. I was only there two years, but there were people who had been there for 10, 15, 20, 25 years longer than me that got the axe too. At our Christams party we had a Vegas-style craps table (he loved playing craps)and he would throw hundred dollar bills around like a drunken sailor(no offense to drunken sailors or other drunks).

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:53:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let me get this straight (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MGross

    You think that corporations should employ as many people as they have the money to pay? Let me guess, you've never run a company.

    •  J & J owes its shareholders enhanced value (3+ / 0-)

      at any cost. Here's the cost-bebefit anal. in a nutshell: Higher unemployment and mortality of stakeholders (employees & customers) yields fewer, wealthier customers paying more for fewer goods. That's a nice way to rationalize failure...and genocide. Higher profits at lower costs ...at any cost to the stakeholders and society as a whole.

      Somebody else had it right: IT'S CLASS WAR!

      I'm a Democrat. That's why!

      by ezdidit on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:38:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  For the last three decades, I have watched (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joe Bob, Clues, FishBiscuit

      large corporations cut employees when their only purpose was to enhance short term profits for the sake of stock analysts. They destroy their customer service departments first and foremost because they see them as pure cost. When they have them down to a skeleton crew that can barely function, they start cutting even more critical functions. And when the work doesn't get done, they threaten and extort free overtime out of the poor saps who are left.

      Large corporations do not play by the rules of supply and demand like small businesses do. The executives that make the decisions on how many people to cut have no idea what they are doing to the workloads of the people left in place and they don't care. They just want to show short term profits on paper, collect their bonus, and move on. They have no loyalty to the company, its business model, or its sustainability.

      Ever wonder why you can't get customer service on so many consumer products these days? This is the reason. Even though you bought an extra warranty on the product, the people who make good on that warranty are seen as pure cost and you'll be lucky to get someone to answer the phone.

      Teabaggistan: Mythical place where down is up, black is white, and reality never intrudes

      by RustyCannon on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:19:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "job prospects for your children"? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kurt, ezdidit, RustyCannon

    Surely you jest.

    Neither these CEOs' children nor their grandchildren will ever have to work. Their parents and grandparents have made such a massive "success" of their lives that the offspring can live off trust funds unto the fourth and fifth generation.

    Don't dare to talk about taxing these individuals to help the civil society in general! That is "class warfare"! That is "communism"!

    The marketing campaigns purchased by these corporations, at the behest of their CEOs and boards, will explain to Americans why anything other than a flat tax is grossly unAmerican.

    Until the precedent of "corporate personhood" is overturned, and until we can think of  our nation conceived for mutual benefit, expect to see us quickly slide into a Corporate-Feudal society.

    Do you see any one person on the Left who is willing to lead the call to action? Because Obama is not the one.

    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

    by Louise on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:32:42 AM PDT

  •  What is he supposed to do? (0+ / 0-)

    Give it all away?

    No one will believe it's the Blues if you wear a suit, `less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it.

    by dov12348 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:37:00 AM PDT

  •  Explain to my why someone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bleedingheartliberal218

    hasn't blown up that son-of-a-bitches limousine? These clueless CEO's are not going to understand when they start to be pulled from their limos and beaten to death by starving workers.

    F the right wing whiners. I don't care about them any more they can all F themselves for all I care.

    by UndercoverRxer on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 10:47:05 AM PDT

    •  So now we advocate violence against rich people? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      longislandny, MGross

      These absurdities are what we get when we resort to Fox News style class warfare.

      Sarah Palin would be proud.

      •  No, not advocate. (0+ / 0-)

        At best that was a way to show how clueless the CEO's are.
        And to think that this might not raise to a level of violence is not beyond the pale of imagination.

        F the right wing whiners. I don't care about them any more they can all F themselves for all I care.

        by UndercoverRxer on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:03:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why CEOs don't get beaten to death (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          J Brunner Fan

          I've worked with a lot of CEOs. They have professional Security.  

          The nut jobs who want to do violence to leaders are usually not only ignorant but also out-to-lunch when it comes to strategizing....  

          What puzzles me is how (justifiably) angry protesters wind up fighting amongst each other, damaging unrelated property, and burning down their own neighborhoods.

          The best intentioned, nonviolent protesters are failing to understand what it takes to be credible and effective.

          The most effective seems to be THE BALLOT and using the legal system...

          Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

          by LNK on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:15:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hmmm, tell that to the people in Greece (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            djMikulec

            and to the people in Latin America.  Direct action is, was and can be effective.  It needs to be organized and targeted.  People need to stay around - not just yell at a bunch of empty building on a Saturday.  It needs to be disruptive.  

            You haven't seen anything yet.  The sort of protests you seen to date are nothing.  It's bound to get quite bad if this trend continues.  Pacification via the media and mass entertainment doesn't work once people can afford neither.

            "There's no green there, they killed their mother" -- Avatar

            by noofsh on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:46:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Mass protests are counterproductive unless (0+ / 0-)

              they have:

              Morality on their side in the quest to right egregious wrongs.

              Organization and discipline.

              I wish you could give me citations from Latin American and Greece of what has worked because all I can think of are efforts that backfired.

              I was in Berkeley in the 1960s and Paris in 1968 (as a student) and saw how street protests lead to decades of reactionary clamp down.

              Nixon and Reagan were elected in reaction against the chaos in the streets, against the misguided violence.

              Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

              by LNK on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 06:55:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  That is what we want to avoid (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FishBiscuit

      But it's getting that bad.  The sort of resentment being created right now is dangerous.  The right wing have distracted it into resentment against government but you know that can't last.  Even the easily misled will eventually realize where the real problem lies.

      "There's no green there, they killed their mother" -- Avatar

      by noofsh on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:43:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Viiolence will justify a harsh response (0+ / 0-)

      Which is why it seems that some are being used as pawns, undercover so-called anarchists.

      Collectively, when enough suffer, they will organize and they will find non-violent ways to starve the beasts that impoverished them.

  •  An $8,450,000.00 Bonus for a Job Well Done! (0+ / 0-)

    Laying off 8100 workers is hard work worth about a $1000.00/worker at Johnson & Johnson for CEO William Weldon.

    The bonus would be larger if Weldon had outsourced the work of the 8100 to China.

  •  "Economic Royalists" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brian B

    Business leaders haven't been called "Robber  Barons" for nothing -- I will never forget having a historic baronial mansion in England pointed out to me...... because no aristocratic family lives there anymore...... it is the home of the CEO of a pharmaceutical company.

    Franklin Delano Roosevelt framed it perfectly:

    http://www.austincc.edu/...
    SNIPPET from
    Speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention

    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

    June 27, 1936

    A Rendezvous With Destiny

    President Roosevelt:

    Philadelphia is a good city in which to write American history. This is fitting ground on which to reaffirm the faith of our fathers; to pledge ourselves to restore to the people a wider freedom; to give to 1936 as the founders gave to 1776 - an American way of life.

    That very word freedom, in itself and of necessity, suggests freedom from some restraining power. In 1776 we sought freedom from the tyranny of a political autocracy - from the eighteenth-century royalists who held special privileges from the crown. It was to perpetuate their privilege that they governed without the consent of the governed; that they denied the right of free assembly and free speech; that they restricted the worship of God; that they put the average man's property and the average man's life in pawn to the mercenaries of dynastic power; that they regimented the people.

    And so it was to win freedom from the tyranny of political autocracy that the American Revolution was fought. That victory gave the business of governing into the hands of the average man, who won the right with his neighbors to make and order his own destiny through his own government. Political tyranny was wiped out at Philadelphia on July 4, 1776.

    Since that struggle, however, man's inventive genius released new forces in our land which reordered the lives of our people. The age of machinery, of railroads; of steam and electricity; the telegraph and the radio; mass production, mass distribution - all of these combined to bring forward a new civilization and with it a new problem for those who sought to remain free.

    For out of this modern civilization economic royalists carved new dynasties. New kingdoms were built upon concentration of control over material things. Through new uses of corporations, banks and securities, new machinery of industry and agriculture, of labor and capital - all undreamed of by the Fathers - the whole structure of modern life was impressed into this royal service.

    There was no place among this royalty for our many thousands of small-businessmen and merchants who sought to make a worthy use of the American system of initiative and profit. They were no more free than the worker or the farmer. Even honest and progressive-minded men of wealth, aware of their obligation to their generation, could never know just where they fitted into this dynastic scheme of things.

    It was natural and perhaps human that the privileged princes of these new economic dynasties, thirsting for power, reached out for control over government itself. They created a new despotism and wrapped it in the robes of legal sanction. In its service new mercenaries sought to regiment the people, their labor, and their property. And as a result the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man.

    The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor - these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small-businessmen, the investments set aside for old age - other people's money - these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.

    Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities.

    Throughout the nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.

    An old English judge once said: "Necessitous men are not free men." Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

    For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

    Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government. The collapse of 1929 showed up the despotism for what it was. The election of 1932 was the people's mandate to end it. Under that mandate it is being ended.

    The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

    Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

    These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike.

    Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

    by LNK on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:05:28 AM PDT

    •  Sounds oh so familar (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      War on Error

      FDR understood partnership.  If he had lived another term you would see a very different country.  If Truman was anything like him it would have been a very different country.  We were on the road to a partnership society but it got derailed first and foremost by the military industrial complex.  They led the way to corporate subversion of our government.  Now our government is the slave of corporations.

      "There's no green there, they killed their mother" -- Avatar

      by noofsh on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:49:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I was sure this was going to be about UC Berkeley (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LNK

    They are another one. They have a President (or the Provost, I always forget which) is making half a million a year while living in a multi-million dollar house, slashing entire programs at UC Berkeley while shuffling funds over to the Business-based programs. That one is ripe for exploration about how corporate monies get misappropriated, workers get furloughed or laid off, yet construction  continues.

    I could name a few other State Universities in California that have done similar things, although UC Berkeley has been the most affrontive in their actions.

    While some might think, why does it matter what one State University in California does when that doesn't impact me in the least, and besides, isn't that a really "elite" school, in fact, it sets a horrifying precedent about public education funds in a system designed specifically to cater well to a huge swathe of students in this State, and that message rings well into the atmosphere to other state colleges around this Nation. It is a true menace, in my view.

    "Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted." -- MLK Jr.

    by mahakali overdrive on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:07:04 AM PDT

  •  Laying off people is so stressful (0+ / 0-)

    Well, as CEO he obviously doesn't actually tell anyone directly that they're laid off, but its still stressful because he has to tell people to tell people that they're laid off.

    So he needs a place to chillax.  Super-classy.  

  •  tipped and rec'd (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VA Breeze

    for a good catch. Amazing work WoE...

    You're watching Fox News. OH MY GOD--LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU

    by rexymeteorite on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:24:07 AM PDT

  •  Had enough yet? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clues, War on Error

    We can continue this system of domination where the rich suffocate everyone that isn't rich.

    OR

    We can reject the system and build one based on partnership.  That doesn't mean there still won't be rich and not so rich but there doesn't need to be this sort of inequity, insecurity and outright pain.

    One good place to start is to reject the priorities of our government.  We should not spend another dime in Afghanistan until everyone has health care, education and unemployment is no worse than 4%.

    "There's no green there, they killed their mother" -- Avatar

    by noofsh on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:40:41 AM PDT

  •  That beachfront property will be covered in oil (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    War on Error

    long before the oceans rise 3m, the way things are going.

    Full-scale militarization of our society will have to proceed slowly so as not to disturb your consumer haze... -= Austin Cline

    by suburi on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:51:55 AM PDT

  •  It's entirely possible (0+ / 0-)

    that they were laid off because the company doesn't have any work for them.  Less demand for product, etc.

    I wonder if they got any kind of severance package?  Severance pay, retraining, help with job placement...  it's not as good as keeping your job, but it's better than nothing.

    Years ago, I worked for a company that had product lines that fluctuated with the economy.  In good years the "deluxe" line flourished, and during the recession the "refurbished" line flourished.  So we were able to migrate people from one area to the other to keep everyone employed.

    "Life is short - drink the good wine!" - OQ

    by OtterQueen on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 11:54:12 AM PDT

  •  Hey, anyone want to buy a Loire Valley chateau? (0+ / 0-)
    I have an extra one I need to unload as I try to downscale my lifestyle to just two mansions per continent. The castles in Scotland and Sardinia should suffice for now.

    Anyone interested, call 1-800-MOU-BSD-1

    "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

    by kovie on Wed Jun 30, 2010 at 12:31:23 PM PDT

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