Skip to main content

The self-proclaimed mastermind of the 1972 Munich Olympic massacre reportedly died in Syria last night.

Abu Daoud, the man who claimed to be the mastermind behind the massacre that marked the 1972 Munich Olympics, has died, according to the official news agency of the Palestinian Authority.

Source

Abu Daoud took credit for the attack in 1999 memoir Palestine:  From Jerusalem to Munich.  Among the provocative claims in the book was that current Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas was responsible for arranging financing of the attack (though he wasn't aware of the purpose for the money).

When Stephen Spielberg's Munich was released in 2005, the terrorist mastermind complained that the film was biased and defended the massacre.

Daoud, 68, who used the nom de guerre Abu Daoud, said that he had yet to see the film, but believed that Spielberg’s storyline pandered to the Jewish state. He complained that two widows of the dead Israeli athletes had been given a private screening of the film in Tel Aviv. "Spielberg showed the movie to widows of the Israeli victims, but he neglected the families of Palestinian victims," said Daoud. "How many Palestinian civilians were killed before and after Munich?"

Daoud offered no apology for the Munich attack and sought to justify the bloody outcome. "We did not target Israeli civilians. Some of them [the Israeli athletes] had taken part in wars and killed many Palestinians," he said. "Whether a pianist or an athlete, any Israeli is a soldier."

Source

The man who instigated the only first act of terror in the history of the Olympics not only remained unrepentant about the slaughter of the Israeli athletes in Munich, but shortly before his death, he pledged that his descendants would follow in his footsteps.

"Today, I cannot fight you anymore, but my grandson will and his grandsons, too."

Source

The response from Palestinian authorities was predictable.  Representatives of Hamas and Fatah attended Daoud's funeral, and PA President Abbas wrote a letter of condolence to the terrorist's family that read,

He is missed. He was one of the leading figures of Fatah and spent his life in resistance [against the occupation] and sincere work as well as physical sacrifice for his people's just causes.

Source

I would imagine that the families of the eleven Israeli athletes killed by Black September would feel differently.

Photobucket

The Israeli government recently indicted two IDF soldiers for war crimes in Gaza.  The Palestinian Authority honors their war criminals.  This is the mentality of the people with whom Israel must make peace.

There is no evidence that the movement to boycott Israeli products is having any impact at all on the Israeli economy.  However, if you are interested in making a symbolic gesture of support for the Israeli people--that is, supporting the BUYcott (h/t Mets102)--visit this website or this website for information about where you can find Israeli imports.

Originally posted to Just PsycoBabble on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 02:41 PM PDT.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

    •  some problems with your diary... (14+ / 0-)

      The man who instigated the only act of terror in the history of the Olympics...

      Eric Rudoph, Atlanta 1996.

      There is no evidence that the movement to boycott Israeli products is having any impact at all on the Israeli economy.

      Cite some evidence then.

      Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

      by borkitekt on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:29:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Knock it of (4+ / 0-)

      with the punitive HRs, people. Thanks.

      Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

      by MBNYC on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:10:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You forgot to mention these. (8+ / 0-)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/... (a partial list)

      As well as the assassination of Ghassan Kanafani.  Who was assassinated simply because he was in a photo with members of the Japanese Red Army.  He was just 36 years old when he was executed by the Mossad.  This assassination also killed his neice.  

      Literary production

      Ghassan Kanafani began writing short stories when he was working in the refugee camps. Often told as seen through the eyes of children, the stories manifested out of his political views and belief that his students' education had to relate to their immediate surroundings. While in Kuwait, he spent much time reading Russian literature and socialist theory, refining many of the short stories he wrote, winning a Kuwaiti prize.[3]

      Kanafani published his first novel, Men in the Sun in Beirut in 1962. He also wrote a number of scholarly works on literature and politics. His thesis, Race and Religion in Zionist Literature, formed the basis for his 1967 study On Zionist Literature.

      Considered a major modernizing influence on Arab literature and still a major figure in Palestinian literature today, Kanafani was an early proponent of complex narrative structures, using flashback effects and a chorus of narrator voices for effect. His writings focused mainly on the themes of Palestinian liberation and struggle, and often touched upon his own experiences as a refugee. He was, as was the PFLP, a Marxist, and believed that the class struggle within Palestinian and Arab society was intrinsically linked to the struggle against Zionism and for a Palestinian state.

      Also an active literary critic, Kanafani's seminal work, Palestinian Literature Under Occupation, 1948-1968, introduced Palestinian writers and poets to the Arab world. He also wrote a major critical work on Zionist and Israeli literature. In the spirit of Jean-Paul Sartre, he called for an engaged literature which would be committed to change.

      Influence

      Kanafani is credited with having coined the term "resistance poetry" to refer to Palestinian poetry written in Occupied Palestine, a now recognized genre within the Arabic literary sphere. Mahmoud Darwish, who dedicated one of his own works, The Palestinian Wedding, to Kanafani, writes in an introduction to a volume of Kanafani's literary critical studies that, "It was Ghassan Kanafani who directed Arab public opinion to the literature of the occupied land [...] the term 'resistance' was not associated with the poetry until Ghassan applied it, thereby giving the term its special significance."[4]

      That one man was 36 when Israel implemented a version of "price tag" with regards to assassinations.  Imagine the works he would have created if he wasn't assassinated.  Imagine all that both people lost because Israel always tends to assassinate or imprison the political and academic elite of Palestine.

      Please revise your diary to acknowledge the use of Israeli death squads rampant killing spree of unrelated Palestinians that occurred before and after Munich.  Otherwise you are just whitewashing history.

      I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

      by General Choomin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:38:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  this is incorrect (12+ / 0-)

      The Israeli government recently indicted two IDF soldiers for war crimes in Gaza.

      they were indicted for 'misconduct', not war crimes.

      "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

      by zannie on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 06:26:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  why the hell is there a HR in your tip jar? (3+ / 0-)

      uprated - and i hope mb does something about this abuse.

      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

      by canadian gal on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 06:32:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I HR'd a comment that the diarist uprated. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valadon, unspeakable, Mets102

        Perhaps you could weigh in on THAT ratings abuse as well?

        It's this one.

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

        by Celtic Merlin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:16:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Didn't make his TipJar HR-worthy (4+ / 0-)

          In fact, I've both recommended this diary and tipped him.  However, his uprating, and the other 2 that have uprated with him, is entirely inappropriate.  MB has already weighed in on this, and said that the comment is HR-worthy.

          As someone pro-Israel, I'm ashamed that there are those on my side that would uprate such a comment.

          •  There is hope for you yet, Mets! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            :0)

            My comment was not an opinion of the Tip Jar.  I was trying to point out CG's decision to decry the HR of the TJ while seeming to ignore the ratings abuse of the diarist which occurred in the comment to which I linked.

            As I was typing this reply to you, CG expressed (in a reply to me) the opinion that uprating that very wrong comment was not abuse, though the moderator seems to thoroughly disagree with that opinion.

            Uprating this diarist is a mistake.  The diary is intended to cause flames to erupt, not enlighten anybody.

            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

            by Celtic Merlin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:33:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I apologize for confusing the two (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Celtic Merlin

              While we have our disagreements on the issues, I believe we can agree that being civil is a good thing, and I did my part in policing my own side of the issue.  See here.

            •  I also draw a distinction between (0+ / 0-)

              the individual and the comment.  I think there's something very much legitimate about what's being said in this diary, and therefore it's deserving of tipping and recommendation.

              Both sides have done some really bad stuff.  Israel has it's support for fascists in the Lebanese Civil War and Deir Yassin, along with the overreaction of the Samu raid in 1966.  The Arabs have their attacking Israel in 1948, the Kfar Etzion massacre, suicide bombings, and the Yom Kippur War.

              I'm sure we can fill way too many diaries with all the undisputed bad stuff both sides have done.  Unfortunately, I think all of us would too quickly get caught up in the "But they did it too!" to defend our positions, and we really won't be able to help it because we're being driven by our emotions here and we're only human.

              •  I'd certainly be interested (0+ / 0-)

                in knowing what you find "legitimate" or valuable in this diary.

                Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                by valadon on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 02:20:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That there is no accountability (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  valadon, RedPencil

                  Say whatever you want about the actions of the various Israeli politicians or the legitimacy of Israeli military actions, there are at least credible arguments to be made both ways.  I stated in one of the threads here that there are certain inexcusable Israeli actions, and I'm sure that you'd agree there have been inexcusable Arab and Palestinian actions here as well.

                  That Abbas would offer official condolences on the death is inexcusable.  He should be treated like the terrorist he was and if Abbas is trying to take a step forward ignoring the death or even using the opportunity to highlight exactly what was wrong with the attack would have been the best thing.  For there to be peace everyone's behavior is going to have to change, both Israeli and Palestinian.  Here, Abbas missed that opportunity.

                  •  Well, you probably said more (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    letsgetreal

                    just now than the diarist did in his whole diary about accountability.

                    My problem with the diary was its accusative tone. I think  there could have been more of a chance for us to talk about the deaths of these Israeli athletes  and even agree that we did not agree with Abbas' statement. This could have been an opportunity to join together. Instead it became hostile.

                    I think it must be painful to hear someone remark about a person who was responsible for the deaths of innocent people, and I can certainly understand that. I think what happened was horrendous, no matter the rationale.

                    As far as Mr. Abbas is concerned, Mr. Daoud was his friend, and I would expect that he'd have to say something as his friend, and as head of the PLO. That doesn't make it any more palatable, but it is  reality.

                    The thing that concerns me is that while I obviously don't condone such acts of brutality, I am also amazed that this same concern is not readily reciprocated for the inhumane treatment of Palestinians by those who give more support to the narrative of the Israeli government.

                    Not one person commented on the posts in this diary about Sabra and Shatila, where about 3500 people lost their lives in probably one of the most brutally inhumane tragedies I have ever heard about.

                    I didn't raise that in the diary, but since we are speaking now, I think it's important to put the other person's shoes on for awhile so we don't feel so distant from each other as human beings.

                    thnx Mets

                    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                    by valadon on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:25:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  hhmmm... (0+ / 0-)

          i expect this kind of litmus tests from the troll beneath you - but you not so much. since you asked though (and i assume you mean the upraters are abusing rather than the hiders) since the person in question has already died it is kind of a moot point whether someone wishes it was painful. i wouldn't have uprated the comment personally, and it is certainly crass, but not ratings abuse to have uprated in my opinion although similarly uncouth.

          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:26:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You are one of the biggest abusers in IP (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo

        BTW.  I guess you support the diarist.  Since, you know, this comment.

         Uprate = support. (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
           leftynyc, fizziks, hikerbiker, canadian gal

        Just stop.

        by thebluecrayon on Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 03:12:51 AM EDT

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Wow I didn't know you supported psychodrew and his terribly written diary.  I guess you truly support psychodrew because uprate = support.  What, in your opinion, where the best and most informative parts of this diary canadian gal?  

        I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

        by General Choomin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:17:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Stop with the ad hominem attacks (5+ / 0-)

          They do nothing but inflame and add nothing to the discussion.  You want to make a point that you disagree.  Fine.  Do so in a respectful way.

          •  Do you know what "ad hominem attack" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            means?  See my post wasn't an attack.  It mighta been rude but it wasn't a logical fallacy.  Yours, on the other hand, is a complete logical fallacy.

            BTW I was being respectful to the extent I can towards canadian gal.  I wasn't making a point that I disagree.  I was asking her what part of the diary that she liked the most.  I just wanted to know why she supports the diary since uprate = support.  I guess in your irrational world just asking simple questions is an "ad hominem attack".  

            Carry on.

            I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

            by General Choomin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:28:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You went well beyond rude (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Bouwerie Boy, hikerbiker

              The type of attacks you make bring down the discussion.  Keep your comments to the points made, and not the people making them.  Like I said, be respectful.  If you're being respectful to the point that you can be, then try harder.  Think about what you're saying.

              And yes, it was an attack on the person.  You called CG, "one of the biggest abusers in IP".  That qualifies as an attack.

              •  But you just proved me right (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo

                With your "HOS" comment.  In which she replied "agreed".  Thanks for validating that I wasn't attacking her.  

                It's funny you don't say the same thing about her when she accuses me of stalking.  Thanks for the double standards and the tons of logical fallacies.  But no thanks.  I am just gonna leave this diary since it's so full of utter failure from the idiot wing of the I side.

                Bye bye and happy fourth of July!

                I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                by General Choomin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 08:00:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  he's already... (4+ / 0-)

            followed me around for months posting the same crap from a dispute from may - totally unrelated to the topic at any given time. since i stopped responding to his trollishness he has now taken to posting this off-topic unrelated thread from a different diary about a comment i didn't even write. i guess the freedom to post without this someone following you from thread to thread posting unsubstantiated bs isn't a right at dkos it seems.

            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

            by canadian gal on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:34:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then he should definitely be HOS (3+ / 0-)

              Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough donuts between all of us to trigger the algorithms.  I'd drop a donut on him for that attack, but I decided to respond, so I'm following site rules and not giving him one.

              •  agreed. n/t (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hikerbiker, Mets102

                "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                by canadian gal on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:39:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  heads up (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rusty Pipes, valadon, capelza, JesseCW, Mets102

                you may be new here, i don't know..but the claims of 'stalking' by this poster in i/p diaries isn't uncommon. most of the i/pers are regulars unless a diary lands on the rec list (relatively rare). iow, we're all in the same diaries anyway..we don't follow eachother here, we follow i/p. it's a false charge unless backed up by some unusual links. you can't just post on an i/p thread and then claim others who show up are 'stalking' you.
                unless you have a strong personal experience and reason to hr on site, i would definitely abstain from that activity.

                "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                by zannie on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 12:25:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I can't vouch for the stalking (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hikerbiker

                  I was simply saying that if she's correct, then it should be HOS.  I had an HR on General Choomin before because he launched into several personal attacks and it got to the point that enough was enough.  However, I deferred to MB's judgment, who said that because I had engaged him in conversation at other points in the diary I should remove the HR.

                  Going forward, if we're going to make this new community policing effort, I'm more than happy to say that we all have fresh starts with all of us leaving our stupid comments (by stupid I mean the attacking comments, and not simply politely writing well-thought comments stating our ideas) behind.  In my book, everything is a clean slate and there will be no HOS until someone is either stalking or just launching personal attack after personal attack or any other ban-worthy offenses.

                  •  bs. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Bouwerie Boy, hikerbiker

                    i have proof - and provided it in both cases. whether or not something was done about - and clearly it hasn't been is something else entirely.

                    btw - i applaud your attempts to make the discussion here more balanced - you're barking up the wrong tree though.

                    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                    by canadian gal on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:31:18 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  If you have proof please present it (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Fire bad tree pretty

                      to the community or to MB.

                      Otherwise, stow the stalking accusation.

                      "Israel does not any longer occupy the West Bank or Gaza. They left." Rep. Weiner

                      by JesseCW on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:52:53 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i've provided proof. (4+ / 0-)

                        here.

                        about the poster in question in this threads... i don't think i made the allegation - but there is definitely evidence of the same.

                        like here, here, and here.

                        there's also a new tact of posting my uprate of a comment - here and here.

                        besides the fact that the poster in question has made a unsubstaniated, slanderous and unfounded allegation about me being a sockpuppet with no consequence - hitting the ignore function hasn't really worked with either of them. while i am pretty sure that the proof contained will be dismissed, yet again in a partisan manner - no matter what your opinions are jesse - i support your right to post them without being intimidated and bullied to shut you up.

                        "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                        by canadian gal on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 08:37:16 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  "Partisan" has nothing to do with it. (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          zannie, capelza, Fire bad tree pretty

                          It's all contact in I/P threads.  People are in the same threads.

                          "Don't talk to me" doesn't cut it.  You don't get to just decide that others can't disagree with you or refute your points, even if you don't get along with them.

                          I agree that it's complete bullshit to accuse you of being a sock.

                          Don't assume that no warning was given, though.  MB does things his own way and seems to prefer not being overly public about a lot of his disciplinary steps.

                          "Israel does not any longer occupy the West Bank or Gaza. They left." Rep. Weiner

                          by JesseCW on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 08:46:53 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  jesse (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fire bad tree pretty

                            just sayin'..i have never been warned by MB wrt her allegations. it's helpful to follow the parents of this 'evidence' presented and discern if it appropriate in the context of the threads along w/all the other comments. context matters. stalking is a serious charge. i have not been following her allegations wrt the general i can only speak for my own contributions. i'm assuming they were not ignored but reviewed and passed over.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 12:20:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I never accused her of being a sock (0+ / 0-)

                            After she linked to one of her one year old posts to explain how I was wrong.  Well it turned out her one year old post was something terrible.  So I checked out her earlier post history.  Which happened to coincided with the drama that was that particular former poster.  Even posting in the thread in which the former poster got banned.

                            Now I know she isn't that poster because MB said she wasn't in that very diary.  It's just that the candian gal that I once discussed things with has incorporated some of some tactics I disapprove of.  Which is to link to instances of previous diaries to discredit other users instead of addressing the argument that user presents.  Which, to me, is a form of character assassination.

                            Now if using the search function is a crime.  Then I'm guilty.  But I didn't say that canadian gal was a sock puppet.  Perhaps I should have used another example of a user who uses comment linking.  Which, as I said, only serves the purpose to create a narrative to support the character assassination of other users.  

                            I apologize to anyone who may think I thought candian gal was a sock.  That was not my goal.  Next time I will be much more explicit.  As far as charges of "stalking".  Well she is just making up stuff because she is an utter phony who can't even admit that a UN document is part of the UN.  I consider that trolling in my book.  I also consider such attempts at character assassination of labeling me as a "stalker" as trollish as well.  

                            I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                            by General Choomin on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 12:44:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  somehow... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            i manage to not have interactions with a myriad of posters without it being a problem really. and indeed you are right that one doesn't:

                            get to just decide that others can't disagree with you or refute your points, even if you don't get along with them

                            i don't think i ever made that claim though. what i do take issue with is the personal attacks and incessant hounding that goes along with it. since you have been around longer than i, is that just too bad for me? meaning that one isn't entitled to post without others posting old and off-topic threads, calling me a liar and myriad of other names and generally being subjected to asshole behaviour?

                            with regard to mb - indeed i do not know what actions (if any) have been taken, i just know that it hasn't stopped which leads me to believe nothing has.

                            either way we have all spent too much time on this (perhaps that was their point after all).

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 01:19:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You've been at this for a while now (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Rusty Pipes, zannie

                            I would really appreciate it if you would submit your evidence to MB re: the stalking charges you have going on. I've seen your evidence several times and don't agree with you but you probably won't take my word for it. Therefore, submit it to MB, get a ruling and let's just end this thing once and for all.

                            I think that you are just having clashes with zannie and General Choomin, none of which rise to the level of behavior that would get anyone banned. I'm not sure what started it with zannie but I witnessed your disagreement with General Choomin and it's probably one of the silliest ones on this site. He did link to a UN website. End of story. Now everyone please move on.

                            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                            by Fire bad tree pretty on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:20:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  thanks for you input. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker

                            seriously - this is exactly what i needed right now - a person with absolutely nothing productive to add - to weigh in and tell me to move on. i say i am tired the fuck of being chased around these threads with a troll posting months old crap and being attacked personally with calls of being a liar, phony, hypocrite. and you tell me to piss off... perhaps i shall. that is the goal anyway.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:36:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh spare me the hyperbole (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Rusty Pipes, zannie, unspeakable

                            I did not tell you to piss off. I very specifically tried to make the point that it might be better if you got this thing resolved once and for all by asking MB for a judgement on your allegations so that everyone can move on.

                            And for the record, I wasn't telling you to go away. Just admit to GC that it was a UN website and hopefully he'll stop having to bring this up. Yes, he has been hr'd and he's been punished for his behavior but that does not mean that he can't call you to account for your comments to him.

                            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                            by Fire bad tree pretty on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 08:56:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see you've been judged. ;) (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fire bad tree pretty

                            sortalikenathan and I have been called "lost causes." And now you're someone who has "absolutely nothing productive to add."

                            How obnoxious.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon Jul 05, 2010 at 09:06:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I missed that exchange (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable

                            I was actually thinking that perhaps I was being too harsh on her. Thanks for the info. I'm pretty sure that I can graduate to 'lost cause' soon.

                            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                            by Fire bad tree pretty on Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 04:05:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  massive double yawn (0+ / 0-)

                          i'm in complete support of anyone following your links to their finality starting w/the example in the very first.

                          "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                          by zannie on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 11:46:15 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You too? (0+ / 0-)

                            canadian gal seems to be a person who cries wolf.  How can she even use you as proof of her claim against me?  It's beyond stupidity and just proves that I was correct in describing her abusive ways.  

                            All her comments that accuse me of "stalking" seem to occur in three threads.  In which each reply back to her is a case of "stalking".  Just sad and pathetic.  I am done with her because she doesn't have it in her for civil discourse.  But if she tries to do such stupid things like comment linking in diaries I read. Well, I will naturally speak up and condemn her for creating such false narratives.  People don't deserve that sort of harassment that canadian gal contributes.

                            I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                            by General Choomin on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 01:00:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  it's like a dysfunctional family (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            around here. everybody's got their quirks. it's not only the ideological bent of a poster it's their dispositions too. whaddeva!

                            ;)

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 01:33:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL! (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie, borkitekt

                            If we ever print up I-P t-shirts, your comment should be in bold on the front.

                            it's like a dysfunctional family
                            around here. everybody's got their quirks. it's not only the ideological bent of a poster it's their dispositions too. whaddeva!

                            ;)

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 03:37:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i've grown accustomed to your face too (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            ;)

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 09:12:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Make up more stuff troll (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              mojada
              Hidden by:
              hikerbiker

              I find this ironic really.

              followed me around for months posting the same crap from a dispute from may - totally unrelated to the topic at any given time. since i stopped responding to his trollishness he has now taken to posting this off-topic unrelated thread from a different diary about a comment i didn't even write. i guess the freedom to post without this someone following you from thread to thread posting unsubstantiated bs isn't a right at dkos it seems.

              You are an utter phony and a fake.  All you do is intimidate people with such unsubstantiated BS.   You are an abuser and a liar who slimes people with false accusations.  This isn't the first time you called me a stalker when I hardly ever comment on your worthless "aggregatescience" like posts.

              This isn't off topic.  This is on topic.  You uprated a comment which says "uprate = support".  Thus you agree with blue that uprate = support.  I ask you what portion of this diary you like and this is your phony fake answer.  An accusation of me being a "stalker".  Now when you do the same fucking thing and link back to other users previous comments to make your asinine points its all good and dandy.  For some reason you don't even think of yourself as a hypocrite in those situations.

              I guess It's only bad when people do that to expose what type of person you are.  A hypocrite and liar who constantly abuses her/his TU status.  A person who has no substance and uses crap like this to dodge questions.

              Now are you going to answer my question on what part of the diary you liked the best or not?  Or do you want to dodge questions forever because you are an utter phony.

              I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

              by General Choomin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:53:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  HRed for this: (10+ / 0-)

      The Palestinian Authority honors their war criminals.  This is the mentality of the people with whom Israel must make peace.

      Unfortunately, the honoring of war criminals is not the exclusive terrain of one side of this conflict.  Your use of the term "mentality" reeks of Bernard Lewis.

      We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

      by soysauce on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 08:51:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  THAT is the part of the diary that I thought (6+ / 0-)

        was wrong.  Broad-brushing an entire people after making a really nasty claim.

        Guess that the diarist missed the awards ceremonies for the murders on the Gaza Flotilla and during Cast Lead.

        I found those statements to be wrong, inflammatory, and an unnecessary attack.  I just didn't think it wrong enough to warrant an HR.  Glad that you and Valadon did, though.

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

        by Celtic Merlin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 09:07:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Or the postage stamps honoring Lehi (5+ / 0-)

          terrorists....

          Or the memorial service for Shamir....

          Or the "Lehi Ribbon"...

          "Israel does not any longer occupy the West Bank or Gaza. They left." Rep. Weiner

          by JesseCW on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 07:54:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Holy SHIT, Batman! (0+ / 0-)

            I just Googled "Lehi Ribbon" and learned alot more about this "Lehi" group than I wanted to know.  They were terrorists - purely terrorists and nothing else.

            That there's a military decoration honoring them is offensive.  Stamps, too?  Shameful.  I'm serious - that's shameful.

            How embarrassing that must be to the pro-I folks who are Liberal/Progressive.  I honestly feel bad for them.

            Celtic Merlin
            Carlinist

            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

            by Celtic Merlin on Mon Jul 05, 2010 at 01:39:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  hred: (5+ / 0-)

      This is a prime example of how not to write a diary that concerns either Israel or Palestine because this is the type of inflammatory rhetoric that prevents honest discussion.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

      by simone daud on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 09:12:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  uprated (3+ / 0-)

      for diary and to counter-act team-oriented HR abuse.

      Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

      by dhonig on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 10:39:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wave the bloody shirt one more time (0+ / 0-)

      I'm sure you can whip up some hatred.

      "These old Wall Street boys are putting up an awful fight to keep the government from putting a cop on their corner." - Will Rogers

      by Lefty Coaster on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 02:04:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is this an attempt to (7+ / 0-)

    generate light or heat?

    The Teabaggers are the GOP base

    by stevej on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 02:46:04 PM PDT

    •  it's usually the latter (5+ / 0-)

      with this particular diarist.

      Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

      by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 02:50:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Could be an attempt... (6+ / 0-)

      ...getting "antisemitic" people like me, who would dare to mention the Palestinians being massacred by Israel, to expose themselves. It worked :(

      No, I don't have convenient I.D. photos of those dead Palestinian men, women and children. I wish I did.

    •  The former. (6+ / 0-)

      But anybody who makes an argument sympathetic to Israel at Daily Kos is accused of attempting to generate the latter.

      The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

      by psychodrew on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:08:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  au contraire (12+ / 0-)

        This is a prime example of how not to write a diary that concerns either Israel or Palestine because this is the type of inflammatory rhetoric that prevents honest discussion.

        I did not condone the unfortunate death of these athletes , who had nothing to do with politics.

        I do not support the statement of Abbas, but there is very little of what Abbas says that I would support because he is a US puppet.

        Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

        by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:29:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bull (11+ / 0-)

        What we get upset about is a one-sided article that takes quotes out of context and completely pander to a false reality about Munich and the aftermath.

        Did Abu Daoud plot to kidnap Israeli Olympic atheletes? Yes. Was this an idiotic, illegal, stupid, etc. thing to do? Yes. But his goal, which you don't mention, was to grab the athletes and exchange them for Palestinians....not just blindly killing Israelis for no reason.

        Two Israelis were killed in the initial siege. The rest were killed in a botched West German police raid. Then Mossad went around killing a bunch of people, many that had nothing to do with the Munich debacle.

        The great Mossad killed innocent people after Munich and the mastermind lived to the ripe old age of 72.

        Then after ignoring what the goal of the Munich debacle was, and how many idiots were involved on all sides, you leap to the statement that we on the West are all good and we are better than THEM because we will contemplate (not actually do it, but contemplate) talking to THEM. We don't kidnap people. We don't kill people.

        Ignore Gitmo...ignore the UAVs over Gaza/Pakistan/Irag killing people who look like they might be 'terrorists'....arbitrary arrests of Hamas politicians....Israelis kidnapping a Lebanese shephard (isn't that an act of war? I kind of remember when Hizballah grabbed some people across the border, it justified leveling entire neighborhoods.)

        •  In the US that's known as Felony Murder (6+ / 0-)

          And the perpetrators of such crimes are considered murderers and punished as such.

          It was Black September that violated the sanctity of the olympics and put those athletes at risk. It was emminently foreseeable that there would be a rescue attempt and the potential consequences of that rescue attempt. The blood is on the hands of Black September and no one else.

          •  "felony murder" wtf is that? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            And the perpetrators of such crimes are considered murderers and punished as such.

            think check, please.

            Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

            by borkitekt on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:42:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you cause a death during the commission of (5+ / 0-)

              a felony then the homicide is treated as murder. Some states limit the doctrine to specific violent offenses, with kidnapping being covered as one of the specified offenses. The only limitation on the doctrine in terms of punishment is that those convicted of felony murder, as opposed to pre-meditated murder cannot be sentenced to death.

              •  perhaps this expression is new, (0+ / 0-)

                and I seem to recall that the concept is rather new as well, but they should give it a different name as it sounds pretty stupid- Both types of murder are considered felonies, obviously, and this is something different.

                Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

                by borkitekt on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:03:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's actually an old Common Law doctrine (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dhonig, psychodrew, AlexanderHamilton

                  We inherited the concept from the English and have applied it in our courts since before independence. The only change has been a narrowing in some states of the doctrine to include only specified felonies, but kidnapping is on the list of included felonies in such situations.

                  •  The name comes not because murder is a felony (4+ / 0-)

                    but because the murder charge is tied to the underlying felony. Therefore, if a defendant is acquitted of the underlying felony they by definition cannot be convicted of the murder charge predicated upon that felony. It would change the homicide to something less serious, like manslaughter, or perhaps even outright acquittal on that charge as well.

                    •  Felony murder can be tricky. If a person (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Mets102

                      in the midst of committing a felony encounters police resistance and if one of the policemen shoots another one and kills him in the course of the encounter, the one committing the felony is charged with the murder of the policeman even though the policeman was killed by 'friendly fire.'

                      •  My Crim Law class spent a few classes on it, (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        psychodrew, AlexanderHamilton

                        starting with the original doctrine and discussing its evolution. You're right that it can be tricky to understand and the example you use is excellent. It's because of the risk created by the felony that the perpetrator is subject to murder charges. The one traditional exception is for co-felons, as one cannot be charged in the death of a co-felon.

                  •  How does it apply in german? (0+ / 0-)

                    I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                    by General Choomin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:21:48 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not applying German law at all here (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      AlexanderHamilton

                      Just explaining why the terrorists are still responsible for the homicides and explaining how US law would categorize this.  That they thought they could negotiate is irrelevant.  It's easily foreseeable what the consequences of their actions could be.

                      •  Your a genious! (0+ / 0-)

                        with your mastery of hindsight and all.  Except the hindsight of not knowing propaganda from historical events.  

                        Now please tell me how the situation applied in German law and why those that survived where quickly released.  I hope it wasn't a request from the Israelis so that they could assassinate them without due process.  Which is, I would assume, a felony charge that would receive penalties of up to the death sentence in the USA.  Premeditated murder is a far worse crime here.

                        I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

                        by General Choomin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 07:34:15 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Not quite. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MBNYC, Mets102

          I never wrote this.

          you leap to the statement that we on the West are all good and we are better than THEM

          And just so I'm clear...

          Did Abu Daoud plot to kidnap Israeli Olympic atheletes? Yes. Was this an idiotic, illegal, stupid, etc. thing to do? Yes. But his goal, which you don't mention, was to grab the athletes and exchange them for Palestinians....not just blindly killing Israelis for no reason.

          Two Israelis were killed in the initial siege. The rest were killed in a botched West German police raid.

          you're downplaying Daoud's culpability because he only wanted to kidnap the Israelis, and you're blaming the Germans for death of the athletes at the airport?

          The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

          by psychodrew on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:40:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Umm Yes (8+ / 0-)

            The Germans botched the 'rescue' attempt.

            Was it right for the Palestinians to do what the did in this instance? No. I never said it was.

            Was it right for the Germans to go in guns blazing? No.

            You are the one that oversimplified the whole Munich debacle. I don't downplay his culpability. And had Mossad actually went after HIM, that would have been a positive.

            Instead, you falsely claim the Palestinians 'massacred' them without providing the proper background. And yes, there is a difference between felony murder and 'terrorism'. If you said what he did was felony murder you would be correct.

            But in the whole failed kidnapping attempt at what should be a sports event, the failed rescue attempt, and the botched Mossad revenge attack, I fail to see any heroes. And I fail to see anything to substantiate this:

            This is the mentality of the people with whom Israel must make peace.

            I see a mentality on both sides that ignores the killing their side does while highlighting the few on the other side that kill.

        •  mick... (6+ / 0-)

          with due respect... this is bs:

          What we get upset about is a one-sided article that takes quotes out of context and completely pander to a false reality about Munich and the aftermath.

          tom j does this regularily and gets a pass by the community. in this case it is strictly partisan.

          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 06:39:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the link to continuing Israeli forays (4+ / 0-)

          into Lebanon.  It's getting almost comical, the diametric contrast between what Israel says and what it does.  Comical, that is, if people weren't dying in groups as part of the process.

          I keep looking for some indication that Israel will abide by its agreements.  I thought the disengagement from Lebanon was kinda sorta that (i.e. they overfly and dropped cluster munitions which are still going off, but no ground incursions).  Turns out, not so much.

          "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

          by Terra Mystica on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 08:55:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Do you see any light? (8+ / 0-)

      From the What Would Barnside Do playbook lession 1:

      Israel is always the unquestionable innocent victim of irrational, savage Palestinian terror for which there is absolutely no explanation- que dog-whistles.

      Discussion must stay away from any attempt to discover why Palestinians might even be upset, including discussions regarding the history of Jewish mistreatement over the X amount of years, aka hypocrisy.

      Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

      by borkitekt on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:19:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Israel is not always the innocent victim (3+ / 0-)

        It overreacted with the Samu raid in 1966, which along with Egyptian and Syrian actions contributed to the atmosphere leading to the Six Day War.

        You should really read Six Days of War by Michael Oren. He does a pretty good job of remaining neutral in his presentation of the facts. Yes, there is some pro-Israel bias in there, but it's not nearly what would be expected from him.

        •  okaaaay, anything since 1966? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza

          Israel is not always the innocent victim
          It overreacted with the Samu raid in 1966,

          iow, you go back over 40 years to be able to admit israel isn't always innocent. oh my.

          "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

          by zannie on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 11:56:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That was what was in my head because (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RedPencil

            I've just finished reading Six Days of War.  I also agree that it was wrong to align with the falangists in Lebanon, both given the personal history of my people and because they simply proved themselves evil.

            I generally support Israel's military actions and think under the circumstances they conduct them as well as possible.  Israel has a right to defend herself.  She shouldn't have to take rocket attacks and suicide bombings and other attacks. When I was in Jerusalem, I passed by the Sbarro that was bombed out.  Any death is unfortunate, but please remember that there is a war of varying hotness ongoing.  Civilian casualties should be minimized.  It's that we disagree on whether Israel is doing its best to do so.

            •  iow (0+ / 0-)

              you supported the gaza massacre? for you this qualifies as 'defense'?

              i'm curious how you think an isolated population of jews might react if a severe economic embargo was placed on the population after an democratic election and then less than a month later their enemy broke a ceasefire by bombing a beach and killing civilians?? i presume you are aware israel broke the ceasefire in 06 AFTER the economic embargo was already in place, contrary to continued allegations that keep surfacing claiming the blockade began AFTER shalit was captured(which also occurred AFTER israel broke the 06 ceasefire).

              By Yuval Azoulay, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service, and Agencies
              6/17/2006

              Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas vowed to continue a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel and denied Hamas ever broke it, after meeting Saturday with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

              "Hamas did not break the truce, although some violations have happened, due to the killing of the family (on a Gaza beach on June 9)," he told reporters.

              The Palestinian leader vowed to uphold the cease-fire "in order to have people living in peace."

              After Palestinians blamed Israel for an explosion that killed seven members of a family eight days ago, Hamas' military wing declared an end to the cease-fire and took responsibility for dozens of subsequent Qassam rocket attacks on western Israel over the past week.

              maybe israel should stop breaking ceasefires if they don't want rocket attacks themselves. people have tired of this concept the militaristic state of israel is being continually victimized by those they imprison and attack.

              "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

              by zannie on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 12:40:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  So... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mll, AlexanderHamilton

        ...you don't really object to anything I've written in the diary?

        The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

        by psychodrew on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:28:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's awfully dark in here and (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, JesseCW

      one could easily fry steaks on the sidewalk.

      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

      by Celtic Merlin on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 06:33:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If the boycott is having little or no effect (4+ / 0-)

    then why do you need support?

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 02:55:22 PM PDT

  •  Just to comment (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mickT, capelza, corvo, unspeakable

    on the movie, I think it was pretty biased. The Israeli soldiers were portrayed as humans who doubted their mission and Palestinians were portrayed as monsters.

    The movie even tried to show that Israelis went out of their way to avoid any civilian deaths but Palestinians just went around killing everyone.

    Overall I liked the movie because it was more nuanced than I expected but that's not saying much.

    Help me, Professor Guyfucker! - dkos hatemail

    by indiemcemopants on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:11:44 PM PDT

  •  What made the Munich attack particularly (10+ / 0-)

    egregious is that they occurred at the olympics, which are supposed to be about peace and fraternity among nations. In ancient Greece wars would have temporary ceasefires to celebrate the olympics. The olympics are not supposed to be about politics. They're supposed to be about sport. Carter was wrong to boycott Moscow in 1980. The Soviets were wrong to boycott LA in 1984. Two American athletes were wrong to wear black gloves and raise their fists during the playing of the Star Spangled Banner in 1968.

    Munich, though is beyond the pale, violating every conceivable notion of what the olympics are about and murdering unarmed Israeli athletes there to compete and celebrate with the world.

    •  True about Munich. The problem with this diary... (8+ / 0-)

      ...is summarized by the diarist's sig line:

      The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

      If the diarist believed that those who condemn the Munich attack are pro-Israel, then the diarist would consider nearly all Kossacks to be pro-Israel.

      The fact that the diarist thinks that almost none of us are pro-Israel suggests the opposite view: that anyone who criticizes actions by Israel is in effect defending the Munich attack or other acts of terrorism. That's why a diary like this is more about heat than light.  

      The fact that the diarist can complain (correctly) about people who consider all Israelis to be soldiers (and therefore legitimate targets), while failing to note a similar attitude toward Palestinians among many on his own side, is another reason why such a diary is more about heat than light.

      I could go on (didn't one of Israel's founders bomb the King David Hotel?), but I hope my point is clear. Criticizing actions by Israel apparently makes me anti-Israel in the diarist's estimation. But I've been to Israel twice and recognize both the intense internal security and the need for it, and I remember the Munich massacre and am still outraged by it, all these years later. I just don't consider those facts to be a free pass for whatever Israel thinks it needs to do in its self defense.

      If that's being anti-Israel, then I guess I'm anti-USA as well (to the diarist), since I apply the same standards to criticizing my own country's actions. Or... maybe the diarist has entirely lost his sense of perspective and basic fairness, and he is the one who is ultimately being anti-Israel by failing to try to correct flaws that ultimately could destroy Israel, just as our reaction to 9/11 hurt my country far worse than any terrorist attack possibly could.

      •  I'm very staunchly pro-Israel (6+ / 0-)

        Any looking at my comments or diaries will demonstrate that, including my being center-left on our political spectrum making me center-right on Israel's.
        I agree with you that there is a difference between criticizing Israeli policy and being anti-Israel. However, that line is often blurred and overstepped by those believing Israel can do no right.

        My personal belief is that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

        Finally, the bombing of the King David was warned ahead of time and the British ignored the earning that their headquarters, including military headquarters, was being bombed. Also, Begin was of the founding generation, but he wasn't a founder of the state the same way Ben-Gurion or Meir were. Ben-Gurion famously said that he would welcome anyone into his coalition except the communists and Herut (Begin's party that was one of the forerunners of the Likud).

      •  You made quite a few assumptions (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lorri, RedPencil, Mets102

        based merely on my sig line.  I am a strong supporter of Israel and my views on the conflict are very much in line with AIPAC.  In the days after the flotilla incident multiple diaries accusing Israel of war crimes shot up to the top of the rec list, while my diaries making the case for Israel got lots of comments, some recs, and a handful of HRs.  Mine is the minority viewpoint here, hence my sig line.  It's not a "you're with us or with the terrorist" Bushism, but you're free to keep making that assumption.

        The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

        by psychodrew on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:40:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I made no assumptions (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza

          I used the diarist's sig line to illustrate attitudes that the diarist had made very clear in other diaries. To summarize briefly, in other diaries I asked very specific questions about very specific actions by Israelis. The diarist responded with all sorts of claims about things I had not asked about. When I made it clear exactly what I was asking, the diarist neither defended those particular actions by Israel nor was willing to admit that representatives of Israel had done the least thing wrong. The diarist simply bailed from the discussion each time that point was reached.

          But speaking of the sig line, a claim that few Kossaks are pro-Israel is very revealing. I haven't read a single comment or diary supporting actions that directly harm any Israeli, so I figure that such comments must be rare, if they exist at all. The thing that is common is criticism of actions by Israel. Therefore, I concluded that it is criticism of Israel that makes Kossaks anti-Israel in the diarist's estimation. QED. The diarist confirmed this above by making it clear that his minority viewpoint (defending all of Israel's actions) is what makes him pro-Israel, and others are anti-Israel because they rejected his arguments. By that logic, I am anti-US when I claim that US citizens have committed war crimes (in the diarist's estimation). Again, QED.

          By the way, it's funny that so many people defendrd the bombing of the King David Hotel instead of commenting on the substantive points that I raised. I appreciate the information, but if I had realized that people would pick up on an offhand question and mostly not respond to my main points, I wouldn't have mentioned it. Or if I knew more, I would have cited some less ambiguous event. But any event can be made ambiguous. Just look at how the Republicans in the US have created a double standard about torture -- it's only wrong (and it's only torture) when it is done to Americans -- never when we do it to someone else. Really, the diarist's way of viewing things seem quite familiar.

          •  Your conclusions are incorrect. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lorri

            Therefore, I concluded that it is criticism of Israel that makes Kossaks anti-Israel in the diarist's estimation. QED. The diarist confirmed this above by making it clear that his minority viewpoint (defending all of Israel's actions) is what makes him pro-Israel, and others are anti-Israel because they rejected his arguments. By that logic, I am anti-US when I claim that US citizens have committed war crimes (in the diarist's estimation). Again, QED.

            Somebody who doesn't agree with me isn't anti-Israel.  I think that those who would identify as pro-Israel Kossaks are in the minority.

            As for ignoring your comments, I don't go out of my way to do that.  Most of my I/P diaries get more than 200 comments--one recently had more than 500 comments--with the overwhelming majority of people criticizing me.  When I am outnumbered, I can't reply to every single comment.  The only people I ignore are those who have a history of calling me names like racist or questioning my intellect or motives.

            The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

            by psychodrew on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 11:04:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Evidence (0+ / 0-)

              Quite a few Kossacks (including me) explicitly self-identify as pro-Israel, as part of our explanation for why we are opposed to certain actions by Israel. The fact that you still claim that being pro-Israel is very rare (and haven't responded to my own comments on what I think it means to be pro-Israel) is strong evidence that you think that the critics (including those who think shooting a teenager twice in the head is a possible war crime) are anti-Israel. But if you will tell me that you think such people can be pro-Israel, I'll believe you.

              As for prior discussions, I'm referring to comment strings where you replied multiple times, right up to the point where all of the side issues were cleared away and you would have to either admit that Israelis did something wrong or defend the obviously indefensible. Then you disappeared. Funny coincidences.

              But, I'll grant that our interactions have been reasonably polite (I forget whether it was you or someone else who accused me of dishonesty for using the phrase "multiple shots to the head" to refer to 2 shots to head, but whatever). The weird hate mailer who leached onto this string provides a nice contrast. We have our disagreements, but you aren't like that guy.

              •  Once again, the diarist drops out... (0+ / 0-)

                ...when confronted with the choice of either admitting an error or defending the indefensible. In this case, the indefensible is his assertion (contrary to all empirical evidence) that someone can be pro-Israel and disagree with his view that everything Israel does in self-defense is justified, even things that are condemned when done to Israel by others.

                Again, I invite the diarist to explicity say that that someone who is pro-Israel can also criticize Israel's actions on the grounds of their being immoral, criminal, or otherwise opposed to Israel's long-term survival. If that's true, then the diarist will have to change his sig line, which asserts that hardly any Kossacks are pro-Israel.

      •  here's the diff (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lorri, MBNYC, psychodrew, RedPencil, Mets102

        in 1948, Israel Gov't declared the Irgun a Terrorist organization. The Irgun was responsible for Deir Yassin Massacre.

        "Critics of the Irgun have seen it as a terrorist organization. It was legally classified as such by the new State of Israel in 1948.[3]"  Footnote 3: ^ a  b  Dr. Yvonne Schmidt (in en). Foundations of Civil and Political Rights in Israel and the Occupied Territories. pp. 254. ISBN 9783638944502. http://books.google.com/... No 33 of 5708-1948 - 23 September 1948

        Think of them as the "kahane chai" of the day:

        The Irgun policy was based on what was then called Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. According to Howard Sachar, "The policy of the new organization was based squarely on Jabotinsky's teachings: every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[2]

        https://secure.wikimedia.org/...

        It is far too easy to tar the entire baby with the "blood libel" but, go right ahead. Then, tell me how the kidnapping of a soldier in 2006 is not an act of war, refuses to let the 9rc check on him. Be my guest and praise a coward who masterminded the death of athletes and innocents while he sat safe, sound, well-fed, clothed and protected in Syria, while his own people paid and continue to pay for his blunder.

        "My case is alter'd, I must work for my living." Moll Cut-Purse, The Roaring Girl - 1612, England's First Actress

        by theRoaringGirl on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:30:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Amusing email reply to my comment (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hikerbiker

        I just got the following email (identity of sender omitted -- I'm not sure whether it is appropriate to post his name and email address):

        On 7/4/2010 10:58:23 AM, "Mr. X" wrote:

        "If that's being anti-Israel, then I guess I'm anti-USA as well (to the
        diarist), since I apply the same standards to criticizing my own country's actions."

        I would agree. You, and the large majority of Daily Kos community are Jew hating bastards as well as anti-Americans. Fortunately for you, the founding fathers allows for pond scum like you to exist and feed off the real American producers.

        I replied as follows:

        You forgot to label your message as "snark". I view it as such since it is impossible to take such a statement seriously. The "feed off the real American producers" non sequitur adds that touch of insanity that marks all great comedy. I plan to post it to the diary to share the joke with others.

        I am very curious about the reactions of "pro-Israel" Kossaks (as defined by the diarist) to Mr. X's message. Do you share my amusement, or do you think he has a point?

        •  A less amusing message (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hikerbiker

          It sounds like a winger to me -- he wants to escalate verbal disagreement to violence, and cannot spell simple words.

          On 7/4/2010 5:12:55 PM, "Mr. X" wrote:

          I got a better idea.
          You're a geek who acts tough behind a computer.
          How about you come out from behind that computer one time and meet face to face. I travel quite a bit and would certainly enjoy meeting someone like you - even if it's
          in you trailor down by the river.

          "snark' - probably the buggest word a moron like you knows. You're living proof why public education has gone into the toilet.

          And my last words to this yahoo:

          Do you know what "non sequitur" means? Do you know how to spell "trailer" or "biggest"? Do you have any idea how far off the mark your attempted insults are falling?

          Bye, Aranfell

          My own personal hate mailer. I've got to say, it puts some of the unpleasant comment strings at Daily Kos in perspective.

        •  Neither. (0+ / 0-)

          Not amusing and it's all creepy bs.

          I admire your ability to laugh off an email like that.  Your response was perfect.

          Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

          by hikerbiker on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 05:01:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks (and some reflection) (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hikerbiker

            It would be hard to laugh it off if any of his attacks on me had the slightest shred of reality. Or, for that matter, if I thought that his follow-up message inviting a physical confrontation was at all likely to happen. I now think I see how Markos can laugh off the hate mail he gets: he is incredibly confident of his positions and his physical safety, and the insults are so far off target that they produce more mystification than offense.

            I've now put that joker's email address on auto-delete. Let him think he got the last word.

            The meta-subject here is learning how others see us and how we are seen by others. I can only guess that this individual feels threatened by any criticism of things he believes, and responded by throwing at me the things that he would personally find most insulting -- hence the trailer-trash references.

            The diarist is more polite, but seems equally threatened by criticism of his apparent foundation belief that everything that Israel does in self-defense is justified for its survival -- and thus that those who criticize such actions are helping the terrorists win. Of course, that belief is true in some cases -- but not all!

            It is clear that such a belief cannot be usefully confronted head on. It can only be addressed a small step at a time, by focusing on an individual incident (like why a teenage American was shot in the head twice on the flotilla). Who knows, maybe the diarist harbors some doubts about that one now. Certainly he has stopped commenting three times now when a string I was involved in got down to that basic, simple question.

  •  This is good news. (5+ / 0-)

    The Israeli government recently indicted two IDF soldiers for war crimes in Gaza.

    I have flow [sic] thru Detriot in recent months and the number of TSA women in hijab is alarming... the foxes are overseeing the chicken coop -- A RW blogger.

    by Kimball Cross on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:40:14 PM PDT

  •  Ariel Sharon (10+ / 0-)

    I don't remember you expressing shock as Israelis praised Ariel Sharon, even though he killed far more innocents.  But I guess only one side is allowed to mourn their dead.

    "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

    by weasel on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:42:41 PM PDT

    •  yes, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soros, corvo, borkitekt, Terra Mystica

      On the 16th of September, 1982, a Lebanese Christian militia faction known as the Phalange entered two Palestinian refugee camps and massacred up to 3,500 of its inhabitants. The camps were named Sabra and Shatila (sometimes spelled ‘Chatila’), and were located close to one another.

      Taking place over a day and a half or so, it was a horrific act of violence that has reverberated to this day. To this day, no one has actually been prosecuted for these crimes – not the fascist Phalangists, nor their Israel Defense Forces backers, nor the then-Israel minister of defence and former prime minister, Ariel Sharon.

      http://pulsemedia.org/...

      Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

      by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 03:50:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ariel Sharon isn't dead (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geekesque, MBNYC, canadian gal

      Everyone is allowed to do whatever they want.  Praising the Munich attack, however, is a brilliant way to enable the people who want to perpetuate the conflict.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:10:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Look at the diarist's other Ip diaries and his (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valadon, corvo

        comments. 'Nuff said.

      •  I don't think it was praise of the attack (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, Terra Mystica, JesseCW, Aranfell

        it was official condolences. Abbas was his friend.
        But I've no doubt it will be seen as some sort of praise.

        It was a plan that back-fired badly and killed innocent people. They were attempting to get 200 Palestinians freed. However, they are still responsible for what did happen, and seemingly there is no remorse on the part of Daoud.

        No one takes responsibility, however, like Mr. Sharon, for their war crimes and the killing of innocents in the thousands.

        No one pursues the truth, no one is held accountable and I dare say that most of the public might remember Munich and those athletes, but they don't even know about Sabra and Shatila and other crimes against humanity.

        Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

        by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:23:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lots of people pursue the truth (0+ / 0-)

          There has hardly been a shortage of people who have looked into Ariel Sharon's conduct at Sabra and Shatilla.  No, no one is going to be held responsible for war crimes, but no one ever really is.  It isn't unique for Israel to get away with them.  And it is truly bizarre to use an event that happened a decade later as a rationale to excuse the events in Munich.

          Nor is the reductive explanation for Munich plausible in my eyes.  Do you really believe they thought the "plan" in Munich would work?  Beyond that, I dislike the implication - the reason that most of the public "remembers" Munich is because the entire event was staged by the perpetrators for them to see.  Hostage takings are deliberately public acts.

          The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

          by Jay Elias on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:54:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hostages in turn for relase of other prisoners (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            valadon, JesseCW

            a story as old as people.  

            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

            by Eiron on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:10:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I can only go by their explanation (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            Do you really believe they thought the "plan" in Munich would work?

            It's impossible to know if they really thought it would work...they might have and that's entirely different from whether we might look at the situation and say did they really think it would work.

            We could ask that of other criminals who usually do think their plans might work only to find themselves later in prison...the best laid plans etc.

            You can can take offense all you like, the reality is that what happened to those athletes in Munich was covered extensively by the media (and rightly so, I should add), but you would never see that same accounting of the deaths of innocent Palestinians. There is a media bias. It existed then and it exists now.

            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

            by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:13:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not denying there is a media bias (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              canadian gal

              I simply don't see how that is the issue.

              It is very possible to know whether or not the planners of the attack believed it would work.  I'd recommend the excellent book One Day in September as a place to begin (the movie - not as good by half).  Indeed, the people involved were just as committed to their plan if it didn't work.

              What I am taking offense to is the idea that events in 1972 are somehow mitigated by events in 1982.

              The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

              by Jay Elias on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:21:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well it's part and parcel (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo

                of the whole unevenness of the situation between Palestinians and Israelis, Jay. And I'm sure you'll agree that public perception is important when disputes arise.

                And I was not trying to mitigate anything, I think you misunderstood.

                Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:34:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Yes (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer, mll, valadon, MBNYC, psychodrew

      I'm not going to get into the Sharon thing as he's not dead, but of course Israelis said nice things when Shamir and Begin died and there is no question that they were in charge of some terrorist acts.  Saying the guy 'is missed' is really mild praise.  I find that a lot less of a problem than when they name buildings and streets after suicide bombers.

      "In his library at Simi Valley, dead Reagan waits dreaming"

      by greatdarkspot on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:51:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This guy deserves credit fot (5+ / 0-)

    branding his people as terrorists in the eyes of the Western world for a generation.

    Good job.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:15:32 PM PDT

  •  No bite? (5+ / 0-)

    Headline last week.

    Palestinian boycott of Israeli settlement goods starts to bite

    Campaign to clear supermarket shelves of West Bank settlement wares forces Israeli factories to cut production

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:50:46 PM PDT

  •  And Fatah and Abbas (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mickT, valadon, corvo, Terra Mystica

    are the "good guys" at the peace talks.

    I thought the problem was Hamas?  

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 04:57:33 PM PDT

    •  they can't keep their stories straight (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mickT, corvo, Terra Mystica

      ;)

      Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

      by valadon on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:04:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The argument is never about reality (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      valadon, corvo, Eiron, Terra Mystica, JesseCW

      or history. But the daily spin cycle.

      Walid Jumblatt says anti-Semitic bullshit....MEMRI quotes him.

      Walid Jumblatt sucks up to Eliott Abrams...all is forgiven. He is part of the March 14th group along with war criminals like Samir Geagea (see Sabra and Shatila)...we support him.

      Walid Jumblatt changes back to being an anti-Semite after the Eliott Abrams attempt to fund coups fails...Walid Jumblatt is again an anti-Semitic asshole (which he is).

      Few of the people arguing these things in the political realm have much moral background.

      •  With Arguments like this Diarist's (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mickT, valadon, corvo

        it highlights the injustice and illegitimacy of what he/she supports.  

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:13:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Which argument are you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          canadian gal

          specifically referring to?

          The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

          by psychodrew on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:17:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Demoniztion, and generalization (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            isn't it clear?

            The man who instigated the only first act of terror in the history of the Olympics not only remained unrepentant about the slaughter of the Israeli athletes in Munich, but shortly before his death, he pledged that his descendants would follow in his footsteps.

            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

            by Eiron on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:22:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh please. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lorri, canadian gal

              You can do better than that.  I quoted Daoud word-for-word.  He defended the terrorist attack.

              Daoud offered no apology for the Munich attack and sought to justify the bloody outcome. "We did not target Israeli civilians. Some of them [the Israeli athletes] had taken part in wars and killed many Palestinians," he said. "Whether a pianist or an athlete, any Israeli is a soldier."

              Source

              And he swore that his family would continue the struggle.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they will continue his legacy of violence.  For that matter, they might think he was a nutjob and not do it at all.  But Daoud said it.

              "Today, I cannot fight you anymore, but my grandson will and his grandsons, too."

              Source

              Don't get mad at me because the facts are inconvenient.

              The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

              by psychodrew on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 05:29:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Me...this one (5+ / 0-)

            This is the mentality of the people with whom Israel must make peace.

            Yet Israel has no problem with dealing with cruel killers if it fits their geo-political strategy. So don't give me that crap.

            In the following days, the Israelis take the lead. Bar-Lev is in constant contact with Amin. Slater tells London that Bar-Lev has explained to him "in considerable detail [how] ... all potential foci of resistance, both up-country and in Kampala, had been eliminated." How does he know this? The Uganda military radio network had been provided by the Israelis. Soon afterwards, Amin made his first trip as president - to Israel.

            source

            I don't like being sold a bunch of bullshit. Don't tell me Israel is innocent as driven snow and is surrounded by evil killers.

  •  Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mickT, valadon, corvo, Terra Mystica

    I guess anybody that eulogizes them is a terrorist sympathizer.

  •  This diary should be HR'd (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, corvo

    It contributes nothing to the purpose of this blog.

  •  Maybe Abu Daoud was.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, corvo, Celtic Merlin

    ...a charming person to those who knew him well and the comment about him being missed had nothing to do with his political stance/history. If you expected Abbas to say, "Good! That asshole is finally dead!" I think you must be living on another planet. And again, as with most of these pearl-clutching "How Dare They!" diaries, who gives a rat's ass?

  •  The comments are interesting, to put it mildly. (0+ / 0-)

    A lot of people seem eager to position themselves in a weird gray area of rationalizing and relativizing a plainly terrorist operation like Munich, without just coming out and saying that terrorism is sometimes justifiable and a net good.  Personally, I think terrorism is sometimes justifiable and a net good, but if I routinely said that on Daily Kos I'd likely be shunned and perhaps banned.  But I'm not sure how I would be in any meaningful sense different from the myriad commenters below (above?) who find fault with the diary, except that I'm less confused.

  •  Maybe in a sign of changing times (9+ / 0-)

    Abbas gave the U.S. envoy, Mitchell, a list of concrete proposals today. Per Haaretz,

    Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has given U.S. special envoy George Mitchell a list of written proposals for reaching a peace agreement with Israel, which includes leaving the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem and Western Wall under Israeli control, Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat reported on Saturday. [...]

    Abbas is said to have proposed the creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but with a land swap encompassing 2.3 percent, which would leave larger settlement blocs such as Gush Etzion, Pisgat Ze'ev and Modi'in Ilit in Israel's hands, along with a swathe of land overlooking Ben-Gurion International Airport.

    In return, the Palestinians would get land bordering the southern West Bank in addition to land for a passageway between the West Bank and Gaza.

    The report also said Abbas presented a softened stance on East Jerusalem, which would become the future capital of the Palestinian state. Abbas reportedly proposed that Israel would retain control over the Old City's Jewish Quarter and Western Wall, while the rest of East Jerusalem would be open to worshippers of all religions.

    Which, if we assume it's a sincere and sustainable offer, seems like a major step.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 06:07:18 PM PDT

    •  Indeed. Thanks for sharing. n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MBNYC, Mets102, canadian gal
    •  Saw that article later, but missed it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      here in the threads.  I was going to share it later myself.  Wouldn't be happy about the division of Jerusalem (I think the city should remain entirely Israeli), but if that's the price of peace, then it's worth it.  Abbas is offering a very reasonable compromise here.  Like I said, not happy about seeing Jerusalem divided, but no one is ever going to be happy with every element of a compromise, given the nature of compromise.

      •  if (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1

        there is to be peace, both parties need equity in it. And if that requires division of the city, then so be it, as far as I'm concerned. Provided it doesn't turn into an East/West Berlin situation, that is.

        Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

        by MBNYC on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 04:15:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, a return to pre-1967 in that sense is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MBNYC

          completely unacceptable.  Perhaps the best solution if the Old City is to be divided like that is to say that the Jewish Quarter and Kotel are Israeli, the Muslim Quarter is Palestinian, and to let the residents of the Armenian and Christian Quarters vote on which state they'd like their sections of the Old City to be in.

    •  If he actually represented anyone and wasn't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fire bad tree pretty

      clinging to office two years past the expiration of his term, he might actually be in a position to offer proposals that carried some weight.

      "Israel does not any longer occupy the West Bank or Gaza. They left." Rep. Weiner

      by JesseCW on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 08:14:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  a much... (3+ / 0-)

    better film than munich is the documentary one day in september.

    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

    by canadian gal on Sat Jul 03, 2010 at 06:55:52 PM PDT

    •  I vividly remember (7+ / 0-)

      watching Jim McKay announce "They're all gone." I was in the kitchen with my mother, who was sobbing as she cooking.

      One of those memories that always stays with you . . .

      •  "Seldom is the news as good as we hope... (0+ / 0-)

        ...or as bad as we fear, but this is one of those times. They're all gone."

        Anyway, that's how I remember it (a quick Google search turned up only the last three words). A dark memory to last a lifetime.

        But who tells the stories of those who aren't famous but who died on both sides of the same conflict?

        To paraphrase something that SF author Lois McMaster Bujold had one of her characters say, the only justification for war is that it produce a better peace. So I feel free to condemn any war-like action that seems directed away from producing a better peace. Munich is high on that list, but such events are not all on one side. I'm not interested in talking with anyone who cannot acknowledge that.

  •  The Olei Hagardom (7+ / 0-)

    Memorialised by the Knesset in March of this year...in a special ceremony.

    I guess some terrorists are heroes and some are not.  Depends on who is doing the terrorising, and murdering and bombing and kidnapping and reprisaling and assassinating.

    Note:  I am not, repeat, not, supporting the actions of the killers of the Israeli Olympians by any means.    Just noting the irony.

  •  This was an important diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    psychodrew, rock the ground

    I've never trusted that Abbas was in any way a "moderate" or that he has any intention of negotiating a real peace with Israel.  

    When he honors murderers, he destroys all trust necessary for peace.

    •  Assassination has dominated Arab politics (0+ / 0-)
      for 100 years.

      The crazies are always willing to pay to have a sensible, reality-based leader destroyed. Since the Muslim Brotherhood relocated to Saudi Arabia, forced out of Egypt by Nasser, the whole area has suffered from their fanaticism.

      Its not like Abbas has much of a choice.

      Career criminals + Angry White Teabaggers and racists + Personality Disorder delusionals + Pro-Life Christians =EQ= The GOPer Base

      by vets74 on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 08:17:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Only 2 token indictments for a monsterous orgy (0+ / 0-)

    of gratuitous IDF destruction murder that left 900 civilians dead?

    Where's Barak's indictment?

    Where's Olmert's indictment?

    "These old Wall Street boys are putting up an awful fight to keep the government from putting a cop on their corner." - Will Rogers

    by Lefty Coaster on Sun Jul 04, 2010 at 02:18:41 PM PDT

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site