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As soysauce detailed in her diary yesterday, the village of Silwan, near East Jerusalem, saw riots as a result of a settler guard shooting and killing a Palestinian man named Samer Sarhan. There were reports that another Palestinian had been injured as well. According to Maan, he, too, has died.

I thought about writing a little memorial diary to him and other Palestinians whose deaths often go unmourned and unnoticed. But a memorial diary on this website is usually apolitical, and Palestinian lives are a political controversy. So are their deaths. An apolitical diary is not possible when discussing someone who lived and died in Silwan.

So this very political diary is written in honor of the people in Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah and all the other villages of East Jerusalem who are being ethnically cleansed from their homes, while their history and culture is being erased with all deliberate speed. Their story deserves to be told. A diary is not the most convenient medium to convey that, but I will do what I can to explain their reality and what they must deal with day in and day out.

It would be a mistake to take this most recent incident, the death of Samer, in isolation.

Silwan is one of 28 independent Palestinian villages, which in 1967 were annexed into East Jerusalem, which in turn was itself annexed, by Israel. These villages, which before then, were considered separate from the city suddenly found themselves against their will a part of a state, where they were second-class residents.

Silwan's particular tensions were outlined in an article by Joel Beinin, a professor of Middle East history at Stanford, and according to him they go back to 1991. In 1991, a group known as To the City of David (ELAD by its Hebrew acronym) began seizing Palestinian homes and settling them with Jewish citizens of Israel. The reason that ELAD focuses on Silwan is that it claims the village is the biblical City of David, and indeed has redubbed it Ir David.

There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that Silwan ever had hosted the presence of King David, his son King Solomon, or any Temple of any sort. Indeed, even the chairman of the Israel Antiquities Authority has stated that ELAD "has declared ideological agenda, which presents the history of the City of David [i.e., Silwan]  in a biased way." Nevertheless, by 1994, it had begun sponsoring archeological digs, which are destroying evidence of the village's non-Jewish history. ELAD currently controls over a quarter of all homes in Silwan.

The most recent tensions, I submit, are a result of an incident on August 26. On that day, for the third time, Jewish settlers attempted to break down the iron door of a mosque near the Pool of Siloam. After police arrived, they began shooting live ammunition and rubber bullets directly at the Palestinian protestors.

On September 1, ELAD held a conference touting its "Gan HaMelech" park, slated to be constructed on the ruins of 22 demolished Palestinian homes. This conference was met with protest from Palestinians and Israeli Jews. Apparently, CBS's Leslie Stahl and her team were able to capture the brutal beating of protestor Daniel Dukarevich, an immigrant to Israel from the former Soviet Union, on film. They have not aired the footage yet.

Here is video of the beating posted by the Jerusalem branch of the Israeli NGO Ta'ayush:

This is the context of the shooting from yesterday. This is the reality of the Palestinian residents of Silwan and the other annexed villages. The settlers can come into their homes, kick them out onto the streets, and the municipal authorities, when they don't support these actions, won't lift a finger to help them.

We don't know who initiated the confrontation that led to Samer Sarhan's murder yesterday. Witnesses claim that the settler guard chased after Sarhan and some other Palestinians. The Israeli police claim that the settler guard was acting in self-defense. But what we do know is that in the aftermath, Israeli police have allowed the murderer out on bail, and instead of controlling the Jewish settlers, have decided to direct their power and authority at the Palestinians.

silwan 2

Image from yesterday. Notice that the soldier is pointing his tear gas launcher straight ahead rather than at an arc. This is supposedly against Israeli SOP.

silwan 1

Image from today. Both pictures are courtesy of Israeli activist Joseph Dana, who also blogs at +972.

Dana is reporting that there is a complete strike ongoing in Silwan in protest of Sarhan's killing.

From the same Maan article cited above, the occupation authority has set up checkpoints all across East Jerusalem, in Silwan and other places aimed at Palestinians, while dozens of young men continue to be detained for being involved in clashes yesterday. Meanwhile another Jewish settler in Silwan opened fire on a Palestinian. Thankfully, no one was hurt this time around.

Sarhan was buried today, and his funeral turned violent. Ynet quotes one Palestinian:

We intend to continue to show that the killing of our sons will not be ignored without exacting a price. It can't be that we're shot and our blood is spilled, while life in Jerusalem runs normally.

All I can say, "Amen." Palestinians are not lesser beings. They deserve justice just as much as anyone else, including their Israeli rulers. But there is no justice, when the state allows the murderer to freely return to his home, while detaining Palestinians who protested his crime. There is no justice when Palestinians are placed under lockdown, while the settlers are free to roam the streets shooting at Palestinians.

The PA is too busy to defend the people its supposed to represent. So those people have taken it into their own hands to defend themselves. This is the only logical course of action given the sorry state that which they've been forced into.

Originally posted to unspeakable on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:45 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  My heart breaks (12+ / 0-)

      and every time I hear defend-Israel-at-any-cost mother fuckers say that it is wrong to direct any criticism at Israel, I want to scream.

      Why the hell do we (the american tax payer) support obscene murders; and never, never denounce what amounts to ethnic cleansing that ALWAYS goes unpunished? From this to the Flotilla in INTERNATIONAL waters being illegally attacked?

      I am a Dearborn man of Arabic descent, with many friends in West Bloomfield's Jewish community - an amazingly enough? My friends there and here and I all HATE the violent assholes on both sides of this... and even they concede their assholes hold all the cards compared to my assholes.

      It is David and Goliath; a shared root-story we all understand.

      I got harassed on the street today by a "good american tea bag type" for being slightly brown, though I carry no accent. She told me that end times are coming, and all us Arabs and Jews would burn.

      We may, not for the reason she envisions, but for the fact we treat one another like vermin.... and one side holds all the cards.

      I worry for my girls.

  •  Do we know the name of the second victim? (13+ / 0-)

    These are the demands and sayings of Lee!

    by Red Sox on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:54:06 PM PDT

  •  It should be noted that (20+ / 0-)

    while Palestinians were being shot at by settlers, Fayyad was meeting with American Jewish groups at an event hosted by The Israel Project, a hasbara organization with well-publicized right-wing views.

    To date, I have not been able to find a condemnation of Sarhan's or the other victim's deaths from the PA.

    Meanwhile, Maan is reporting in Arabic that there are a lot of injuries being reported in Silwan as a result of Israel's use of tear gas. Apparently, its troops also fired them at the house that mourners were gathered for Sarhan.

    At least, 35 Palestinians have also been injured in al-Isawiyya.

    Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

    by unspeakable on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:01:03 PM PDT

    •  Disgusting. (15+ / 0-)

      Apparently, its troops also fired them at the house that mourners were gathered for Sarhan.

      •  What is happening in Silwan is disgusting (12+ / 0-)

        Did you see the video of settlers singing the praises of Baruch Goldstein. These are the extreme of the extreme. It saddens me that the Israeli Government is protecting this.

        Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:27:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They should issue the following steps: (9+ / 0-)

          Give them, say, two weeks to pack their bags.

          After that, pull their IDF "protection."

          Give them, say, another two weeks then -

          Pull their welfare checks since a vast majority of them are on the dole.

          Give them another two weeks and then -

          Pull their residency status, making them officially "ex pats."

          The money saved from maintaining IDF protection and sending welfare checks can be used for a low and moderate income housing for those who pack up and move.

          A similar construction/jobs program can be started for Palestinians.

          The rest of them should no longer be Israel's concern since what they are doing is neither in the interests of the state nor in keeping with any part of the Jewish faith.

          •  Well what they really should do is go in (7+ / 0-)

            and give the house back to it's Palestinian owners. Give them two weeks? No, give them 72 hours, and go in and evict. If you pull their protection people will die. Not just in the house but their security will kill people.

            They need to just get them out of there period, and do a deal to create Two States. But... Israel is going to shoot this deal with continued construction. Unfreakin' believable.

            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:55:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  These idiots shoot at the IDF when they try to (6+ / 0-)

              evict them.  Just pull their support, 99% of them will go back to Israel within a month.  Some of the morons won't go back to Israel and may get hurt, but let them win themselves a Darwin award. If they commit crimes, let them be arrested and tried by the government of the area, which is the PA. If they start organizing terrorist cells, put a stop to it, by any means necessary.

              "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

              by Futuristic Dreamer on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:00:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (11+ / 0-)

            At the end of the day, no matter how much I hate the settlers and how little sympathy I have for them, I would never wish statelessness on them. That is a special brand of hell that I've seen my some of my relatives go through, and no one deserves that.

            But there is an essential truth in your comment. Israel has the ability to end the circumstances that lead to these deaths in East Jerusalem and elsewhere in the West Bank. Even less drastic measures than you propose are possible. Yet not only is there no movement, there's actually a shoring up of the settlers.

            That speaks volumes, not only about the intentions of those Israeli leaders who go on about peace while continuing to fund this behavior, but also about the prospects for a Palestinian state.

            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

            by unspeakable on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:42:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ex-pats aren't stateless, they're just living (8+ / 0-)

              outside their country of citizenship.  They typically get some protection from their government, and a passport, etc, but are expected to obey the laws of the country they're a resident of.  If Israel did this, it would give the PA the authority to deport them to Israel, or arrest them and try them if they've committed a crime, but would save Israel the trouble of dragging them kicking and screaming.

              "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

              by Futuristic Dreamer on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 09:51:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, (6+ / 0-)

                to me losing residency and having their passports withdrawn and all that, sounds very different from simply becoming ex-pats. But that's probably because I was thinking about what that would mean to a Palestinian in the same situation, and that would most definitely be statelessness for her.

                But the idea that Israel would give the PA the authority to deal directly with the settlers... there are no words for how preposterous that seems. I can't get over how far away from reality any of proposal along those lines is.

                Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                by unspeakable on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 09:20:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If this were to happen... (3+ / 0-)

                  I think the more logical approach would be the typical approach in such situations:

                  They lose their Israeli citizenship and acquire Palestinian citizenship.  Thus they would go from being Jewish Israelis to Jewish Palestinians.  If they wanted to keep their Israeli citizenship they would have to move back across the border into Israel.

                  Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                  by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:34:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There is no such thing as Palestinian citizenship (7+ / 0-)

                    If you pull a settler's citizenship, he can't acquire Palestinian citizenship because it doesn't exist. He becomes stateless, just like all those Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza, and elsewhere.

                    But that's why I misread why arielle was saying about giving them two weeks or face consequences. I assumed she meant "citizenship" when she said "residency."

                    Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                    by unspeakable on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:03:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm referring to what happens... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      hikerbiker, volleyboy1

                      in a final agreement.  I guess I should have been clearer as well.  If it's agreed by both sides that the settlers or some of the settlers can stay, then they to understand they are no longer Israeli citizens of Jewish ethnicity, but rather Palestinian citizens of Jewish ethnicity.

                      Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                      by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:13:32 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  "then they have to..." n/t (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1

                        Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                        by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:15:14 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I understand the concept, but shouldn't it go (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        unspeakable

                        both ways?  If Palestinians are going to be expected to absorb the settler population into their state, wouldn't a fair trade for that be accepting Palestinian right to return to Israel?

                        Allowing them to live there as Israel citizens, and apply for citizenship to a Palestine state if they so chose (not that such applications would necessarily be accepted), makes a lot more sense.  

                        "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                        by Futuristic Dreamer on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 12:35:30 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  My broader point... (0+ / 0-)

                          is that it's officially to be left to negotiation.  However, I don't think that's what should happen.  I think there should be some sort of land swap, as is already being discussed, with land of equal size and quality being traded for the main settlement blocks near the Green Line, and that all other settlements should be evacuated.

                          Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                          by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 12:37:15 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The settlements should be dissimilated (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            arielle, unspeakable, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            But I think forcible evacuation isn't the best way to that.  It hasn't worked well before, and doesn't make the concessions Israel needs to make to create a viable peace politically palatable.  Voluntary evacuations combined with withdrawing all support over a short period of time, and giving people a way to leave safely at their discretion will work much better.  A couple people will still dig in their heals and stay, and let them.  They can choose to live in peace with their new neighbors, and follow the law of the Palestine state, or they can be prosecuted for any crime they commit under Palestinian law, and suffer the consequences of their actions, or go back to Israel.  I don't think many settlers would chose to stay under those conditions.

                            I recall when Sharon evacuated settlers in Gaza a bunch of the settlers fought the evacuation tooth and nail, injuring IDF solders in the process. How many would rather be Gaza now?  How long would they have stayed if Israel had just pulled out?  If Israelis are going to shoot at the IDF because they'd rather live under Hamas than their own government, let them stay; they deserve each other.  I would hope a future Palestine government will be far more reasonable than Hamas. If a future Palestinian government needs help dealing with non-law abiding settlers Israel should be quick to offer assistance.  If staying is so important to them - let them be upstanding members of their now Palestinian communities.

                            "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                            by Futuristic Dreamer on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:17:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well said... (3+ / 0-)

                            that being said, I don't think the Palestinian side is likely to accept such a resolution to the situation, and if forcible evacuations like in Gaza are the cost of implementing a peace agreement, then that is a cost that not only should be paid, but needs to be paid.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:26:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The difference between grating citizenship and (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            letting them stay if they refuse to return is that, if they're allowed to stay, the Palestinian government will have the right to deport them to Israel, their country of citizenship, for just about any reason, and they won't have the right to vote in a Palestinian state.  Exchanging some settlers staying for giving Palestinians the right of passage through Israel, to work in Israel, etc, seems pretty reasonable, and such an agreement would affect Israel's character as a Jewish state, because they wouldn't be citizens, just like the former settlers wouldn't be citizens of a Palestinian state.

                            "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

                            by Futuristic Dreamer on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:38:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I love this comment: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Futuristic Dreamer, Mets102

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:32:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  hit enter too soon (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            arielle, Futuristic Dreamer, Mets102

                            I was going to say, I love this comment particularly this:

                            If Israelis are going to shoot at the IDF because they'd rather live under Hamas than their own government, let them stay; they deserve each other

                            Amen.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:34:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Unspeakable, you have a rare & extraordinary gift (6+ / 0-)

              in your ability to feel compassion all parties in this conflict, despite your involvement. That comes from an inner strength that very few people ever achieve, and is a characteristic of the greatest of human leaders and prophets. Most people in this conflict are so blinded by anger, fear, and hate, that don't consider the other side's perspective, or humanity. Your genuine compassion for both sides is a testament to the strength of your character. Have you ever considered that you may have a destiny in helping resolve this conflict peacefully, once in for all?

              "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

              by Futuristic Dreamer on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 12:46:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  "Shoring up" (5+ / 0-)

              It defies all logic, doesn't it?

              And it's not that I'm wishing statelessness upon them.  I think it is the only way for them who insist on staying to have a legitimate state.

              Of Palestine.

          •  i'd be afraid (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rusty Pipes

            for the price tag attacks w/all these 2 week 'grace' periods. they won't go quietly.

            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

            by zannie on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:17:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So what does one do (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, Mets102

              in regards to housing needs, etc.?

              And I only threw the two week time periods in there as an example.

              •  wow i wish i knew (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                arielle

                we've discussed this here before and i've gotten very little agreement on this but i think some kind of joint military operation might be the most effective and cause the least amount of violence. the government of israel would have to be solidly behind any action, ideally.

                as i'm sure you know there are some very influential rabbis advising people to not support the idf in any action to curb the settlers. i don't believe most settlers would turn violent at all. but i've heard figures of 30,000 of the most radical and their mostly affiliated w/certain settlements/yeshivas (i know a little about which ones) my instinct would be to identify the most extreme, solidify a few battilons of seculars in the idf possibly assisted by other special forces, surround them and evacuate them first. seal off the area to prevent them from re entering and then approach the others in the way you suggest.

                i haven't thought about stuff like housing needs but i suppose it would be hypocritcal to suggest the israeli way which amounts to letting them set up tents. set them up in synagogues and make camps for them. i have no idea. for temporary measure put them in that camp area they are setting up for bedouins in the negev. some posters here seem to think it is a special place. if it's good enough for palestinians it's good enough for settlers.

                go in. isolate the extremists and remove them. the less warning the better. the government needs to show these people who's boss. they are vigilantes who use the idf in their service. the idf is mostly kids, they're no match for these died in the wool settlers fanatics. this is going to take professionals or it could amount to a bloodbath.

                the alternative is to sit back and do nothing and let these people run the expansion process which seems to be israle's MO at the time (the housing ministry, shas, is the one funding these private militias to begin with). israel will become a fundie state in no time. these people are a growing faction and they're violent. no serious state would acquiesce to this, it would be tantamount to having armed tea partiers/james dobsenites deciding to take over indian land casinos and the whole kitten kaboodle and the government sitting by and doing nothing or funding them for heaven's sake. they have to be slapped down with the least amount of force necessary but enough to get the job done. they're hooligans and thugs and some worse than that.

                "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                by zannie on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 05:43:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think the (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zannie, psychodrew, Mets102

                  little notice, brute force approach would end well.  'Tis a puzzlement.

                  I feel that Israel has a duty to house people it is telling to pack up and move after promoting their living in the territories in the first place.

                  Those who fled Muslim nations started in tents.  May not be as bad as some of the other current potentialities.

                  •  hmm (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    arielle

                    I don't think the little notice, brute force approach would end well.  'Tis a puzzlement.

                    i'm only referencing the most radical here. do you think they are open to negotiation? let's recall that bedouin community (not radical). the government had no issue with coming in during the middle of the night and ousting them. no negotiation. no one died. we're talking about people who have vowed to attack palestinians if the government disrupts their agenda. under these circumstances a few weeks notice could cause untold pain and suffering. whole neighborhoods could go up in flames. it could kickstart an intifada that could last years. frankly i can't think of anyway evicting them that could 'end well' but as far as the least damage i still think isolating the most extreme elements first prior to the majority is the best option. it's irrelevant tho because it's unlikely large scale evacuations supported by the government will take place. the situation in hebron is horrendous, they would cause massive damage before they would leave. i'd evict them in the middle of the night w/a large dominating force.

                    "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                    by zannie on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 09:16:22 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't think they should be engaged at all. (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zannie, psychodrew, volleyboy1, Mets102

                      Tell the settlers, "Here is choice 'A'", "Here is choice 'B'" and then take care of those who take choice 'A'.

                      Maybe a weapons sweep and handing over of any surveillance files to the Palestinians.

                      I see your point about isolation and it's not a bad one.  But I'm wondering about things like the woman who wants to go back across the green line with her children and the patriarch refusing to budge, etc.

                      The IDF would be better used, perhaps, to provide protection and logistical support to those leaving and the Palestinians who live there.

                      •  perhaps i'm not fully understanding you (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't think they should be engaged at all

                        the ones i am referencing? the most extreme elements? isn't that the status quo, not engaging them? what are those 2 choices you are referencing? do you mean take care of those willing to leave or those unwilling?

                        Maybe a weapons sweep and handing over of any surveillance files to the Palestinians.

                        what do you mean? surveillance files of palestinians or settlers? do you mean engaging the palestinians to deal w/the settlers?

                        as far as 'the woman who wants to go back across the green line with her children' do you mean back across into israel? i don't see that as being a problem. if you mean returning back to the settlements i think the idf have lots of experience w/those checkpoints when they want to prevent people from entering an area. wrt/the patriarch refusing to budge, i think the idf have lots of experience w/them. what about the bedouin patriarch who refused to budge? it took them no time at all. they came in the middle of the night and evicted them, end of story.

                        do you mean old jewish men are harder to shove around than old palestinian men?

                        but what of the young militant men and women willing to fight to the death? they are the problem. evicting them w/no casualties. how are you going to do that by not engaging them? the people who came by the hundreds into hebron the morning after the attack and set up a new outpost? these people are very experienced at setting up an outpost in one night. take them to the negev and let them settle there. why are these people settling in palestinian territory when there are miles and miles of unsettled land inside israel? because the government funds them that's why. likely there will be no evictions. there will be 'talks' whereby palestininas are encouraged to agree to more building into areas deemed 'likely to be part of israel' w/the promise of a state down the road. then the government will build in these areas of palestinian land while their rebels will burrow further and further into illegal palestinian territory, just like before..

                        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                        by zannie on Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 09:18:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You were doing so well there for a minute. (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          psychodrew, volleyboy1, Mets102

                          There are antecedents in the thread.  My points should be quite obvious.

                          the ones i am referencing? the most extreme elements? isn't that the status quo, not engaging them? what are those 2 choices you are referencing? do you mean take care of those willing to leave or those unwilling?

                          The extremists should not be engaged by Israeli troops in any way that will cause further belligerence, hostility, and violence by right wing elements against Palestinians.

                          The "status quo" for the settlers is providing welfare assistance, IDF protection, subsidies, and government related services which include, but are not limited to, water, electricity, telephone, education, health clinics and services, and mail.  That would all end.

                          The settlers should be given the choice of packing up their shit and peaceably moving "back across the green line" (which, quite obviously, means Israel) or remaining in what would then be a de facto, if not hopefully de jure, Palestinian state.

                          Why would I suggest the government of Israel "take care of" settlers who refuse to leave the territories?  WTF?  It's obvious their duty should be to the ones moving back since they subsidized their living arrangements in the territories.

                          what do you mean? surveillance files of palestinians or settlers? do you mean engaging the palestinians to deal w/the settlers?

                          What have I ever said, let alone say in that post, that would even allow you to speculate on to whom I was referring?  Really.

                          If they have any files or information showing illegal and/or terrorist activity of those who choose to remain in Palestine, that information should be provided to the Palestinian police/government agencies that are formed as part of any peace agreement.

                          This

                          as far as 'the woman who wants to go back across the green line with her children' do you mean back across into israel? i don't see that as being a problem. if you mean returning back to the settlements i think the idf have lots of experience w/those checkpoints when they want to prevent people from entering an area. wrt/the patriarch refusing to budge, i think the idf have lots of experience w/them. what about the bedouin patriarch who refused to budge? it took them no time at all. they came in the middle of the night and evicted them, end of story.

                          do you mean old jewish men are harder to shove around than old palestinian men?

                          defies credulity.

                          Women and children who are in a precarious physical or emotional situation are going to need the Israeli government's assistance in getting safely out and provided for during what is no doubt going to be a rudimentary upheaval.

                          I have to quote this again because the vapidity is staggering.

                          do you mean old jewish men are harder to shove around than old palestinian men?

                          but what of the young militant men and women willing to fight to the death?

                          I think you will find that when the choice is made clear and inflexible, when the backing of the government of Israel is no longer behind their reckless stance, and when IDF uniforms are no longer in a position to succor bravado, most will return to Israel so they can be "Israeli Jews."

                          For areas that do become overly contentious, the IDF and potentially any international forces that are agreed to in any peace settlement, should provide assistance and aid to the Palestinian government and let the perpetrators know their duty is to uphold that peace settlement and assist the fledgling Palestinian state.

                          •  oh my (0+ / 0-)

                            your rude rhetoric aside i think perhaps we've been talking about completely different things. this is the parent of the comment or yours i engaged

                            What is happening in Silwan is disgusting (12+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                               livosh1, mattman, arielle, zannie, capelza, borkitekt, Red Sox, RedPencil, Futuristic Dreamer, hikerbiker, Mets102, InAntalya

                            Did you see the video of settlers singing the praises of Baruch Goldstein. These are the extreme of the extreme. It saddens me that the Israeli Government is protecting this.

                            your comment, the one i rec'd, the one who's subject line said: 'They should issue the following steps: (9+ / 0-)".

                            i guess i wrongly interpreted it to mean NOW, wrt silwan and the violence occurring and hotbed regions like silwan. centers of radicals. i wasn't talking about any final deal down the road a few years once the agreements took hold that pertained to 500,000 settlers. i thought you were stating the extreme of the extreme, the one volley said saddened him the Israeli Government is protecting..i thought you meant they should not be engaged now and guess that is what you meant for i can hardly think you would mean NOW their files should be left to the PA and for the PA to have authority over silwan. obviously that would very much cause further belligerence, hostility, and violence by right wing elements against palestinians.

                            thanks so much for reminding me what a rude insulting person you can be. i won't bother to try engaging you again. we can all go back to reality where NOTHING will be done now except more suffering for palestinians and once a deal is all wrapped up in a few years i'm sure your plan will run swimmingly.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 01:23:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm talking about the whole thing. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, psychodrew, Mets102

                            All of 'em.  All at once.

                            The only settlers left should be any settlements that are mutually agreed to on a land swap basis between the two governments and those who decide to be Palestinian citizens.

                            And I do mean now.

                            Fuck that.  I mean yesterday.

                            The "final deal" can start right now with Israel taking the steps I talked about.  Call it a "good faith" measure.  Call it whatever the fuck you want.

                            The "policing" actions of this situation are a separate matter from the decisive course altering that needs to take place to stop it from ever happening again or just growing worse.

                            I'm sorry that the consistency of my approach to IP has confused you into thinking I may believe they shouldn't be doing anything right now or that I would think the government should help settlers get back to the settlements or that Jewish terrorists shouldn't be arrested or whatever the fuck it is you seem to think.

                            Your aforementioned "vapidity" is in regards to your inability to comprehend what I say or how I view the situation, not your political views vis a vis the Israeli government.

                            It's too taxing to have to keep parsing out and explaining my thoughts repeatedly so have a good weekend.

                          •  i didn't ask questions (0+ / 0-)

                            to blow your mind, i asked them because i didn't understand what you meant.

                            i suppose it's perfectly logical to you how you'd never consider advocating the idf engage extremists yet you would suggest handing over settler surveillance files to palestinians presumably so they could deal w/their intransigence because presumably that would not be massively disruptive. (as a matter of fact it makes so much sense i can't figure out why the PA was even formed because everyone knows people don't like to be policed by their own people, except for the women and children of course) defies credulity!

                            and what pray tell would ever allow me to speculate regarding your logic because it defies credulity that professional soldiers, instead of dealing with extemists, would be assisting women and children.

                            of course arielle. because once you take their check away the elements in the US who've been shoveling money into those extremists strongholds will just cease their funding (no more private security i'm so sure) and the people there will turn around and return to israel on their own. they won't cause anymore problems (at least nothing the PA can't handle just because the idf shouldn't) and their mandate from god to settle the entire west bank will dissipate. why didn't i think of that.

                            My points should be quite obvious

                            well, they are now.

                            other than those tiny details everything else you said made all the sense in the world. next time i'll remember to not ask questions, certainly not politely.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sun Sep 26, 2010 at 05:24:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ps (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            defies credulity.

                            Women and children who are in a precarious physical or emotional situation are going to need the Israeli government's assistance in getting safely out and provided for during what is no doubt going to be a rudimentary upheaval.

                            I have to quote this again because the vapidity is staggering.

                            do you mean old jewish men are harder to shove around than old palestinian men?

                            maybe we're talking about different israeli governments. the israeli government i'm talking about invades homes at 3 am and evicts people when they want them evicted. they don't worry about patriarchs who refused to budge, they don't give a crap about women and children who are in a precarious physical or emotional situation. when they want them evicted they evict them.

                            you think my vapidity is staggering? this is the same government who evicts people by showing up one day and bulldozing their homes. they hardly need the idf to hold women and children hands they could use social services for that or volunteer kids from those summer camps they use to evicted the palestinians and provide a little extra education for the kids.. let's hope another intifada doesn't break out thru the provocation of these religious fanatics living in the middle of palestinians neighborhoods. resettling women and children will be the least of our worries.

                            the double standard is what defies credulity. the standards of these settlers in to move right into others homes and throw them onto the street from houses they've lived in for 60 years.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 01:43:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  beinart on engagement (0+ / 0-)

                        Many will have to be violently confronted, a terrifying prospect given that militant settlers comprise a larger and larger share of the Israeli officer corps. (Yitzhak Rabin, remember, was assassinated for merely contemplating the removal of West Bank settlements). And even if all this can be done without civil war, any land Israel keeps in the West Bank will likely have to be traded for land within pre-1967 Israel, and there’s not much land to trade.

                        frankly, the fantasy these extremists should not be confronted (or engaged as you call it), or should be dealt with merely by turning over their files to the PA, is unfathomable if any working resolution is to be forged.

                        delusional in fact. defies logic.

                        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                        by zannie on Tue Sep 28, 2010 at 09:05:03 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm afraid to ask... (6+ / 0-)

          but where is this video?

          Baruch Goldstein was a terrorist and those singing his praises are despicable.

          Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

          by Mets102 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:44:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Here is the English language version (7+ / 0-)

      of the article I mentioned in the parent comment.

      Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

      by unspeakable on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:56:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I tipped and rec,'d your diary (10+ / 0-)

    frankly what is happening in Silwan is ridiculous. I may be Pro-I but I have absolutely zero support for the settlers trying to displace the people of Silwan.

    This is the future of the West Bank unless the Peace Talks and the two State solution have any success. If Israel cannot or will not stop the settlement process this is what they reap.

    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

    by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:03:51 PM PDT

    •  To add: (8+ / 0-)

      This is a well-written diary. You did not resort to hyperbole to make your point. Just straight forward, honest writing. It is much appreciated and well done.

      Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:06:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nonsense. (21+ / 0-)

      This is the future of the West Bank unless the Peace Talks and the two State solution have any success.

      Official Israel can stop the settler violence right now if it wanted to.

      If Palestinians are routinely required to cease terrorist acts committed on their side before Israel will deign to talk to them, then certainly Israel, with its vastly superior infrastructure and security forces, can do the same with its settlers.

      •  Yep, but do they want to? (15+ / 0-)

        This article appeared this week. Justice is in most societies a core value, but when one side rightfully believes they do not get it from the other, questions of legitimacy are raised against the side denying justice. How do you complain that Palestinians are not law abiding when what happened to the Palestinian folk in the article, where the only place they can file a complaint is in a town they are barred from and the police will not admit them for that purpose, or to the people of Silwan this week, such as this attack on a mosque  , are allowed to continue without remedy for the victims so that the Law itself is called into disrepute.

      •  Instead of rushing to judgement (4+ / 0-)

        learn to read.

        It is not nonsense you idiot. It is the truth.

        Official Israel can stop the settler violence right now if it wanted to.

        Of course they can stop the violence. They obviously won't - that is my point, you peanuthead.

        If Palestinians are routinely required to cease terrorist acts committed on their side before Israel will deign to talk to them, then certainly Israel, with its vastly superior infrastructure and security forces, can do the same with its settlers.

        Again, you have a keen eye for the obvious.

        You are so ready to jump on the "Volleyboy hates the Palestinians" bandwagon that you don't realize when I fucking agree with you. Jeebus.

        The fact of the matter is - what is happening in Silwan today is what will happen if the Right Wing elements of the Government get the power (or shift the Israeli polity) to annex the West Bank in a One State solution. What people should or shouldn't do is irrelevant to the discussion, it is what people will do.

        Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:22:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  wrong again! (6+ / 0-)

          The fact of the matter is - what is happening in Silwan today is what will happen if the Right Wing elements of the Government get the power (or shift the Israeli polity) to annex the West Bank in a One State solution.

          Since this has always been what happens regardless of who runs the Israeli Government, there's no reason not to believe that this is what will happen no matter who runs the Israeli Government.

          Unless, of course, the Palestinians do whatever Israel wants at the negotiating table. :-)

          •  You know what forget it..... (4+ / 0-)

            fine.... whatever you say.... Sorry I don't really know why I bother talking with you. It's pointless. Even when I agree with you - for some reason you feel you have to be an ass. Thanks.

            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:32:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm sorry when this happens...I/P is (9+ / 0-)

              difficult enough on its own. When dialog here is impossible, how can we expect it to be otherwise elsewhere?

              •  Well yeah.... (7+ / 0-)

                basically I agreed with what he said and he still attacked. It is unbelievable. I mean I made the point in my original post:

                frankly what is happening in Silwan is ridiculous. I may be Pro-I but I have absolutely zero support for the settlers trying to displace the people of Silwan. (vb1 emphasis)

                This is the future of the West Bank unless the Peace Talks and the two State solution have any success. If Israel cannot or will not stop the settlement process this is what they reap.

                basically blaming Israel for this and what happens... the idiot says "nonsense!". And then people uprate his stupidity.

                So the new rule apparently is that even when you agree with someone and say so - they get to rip you for agreeing with them.

                Yeah, that makes sense.

                Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:59:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It is not a new rule...it is very, very old... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, Mets102

                  sadly.

                •  umm, hate to interrupt the festivities, but (3+ / 0-)

                  If Israel cannot or will not stop the settlement process this is what they reap

                  . . . what is the antecedent of "they"?

                  •  Israel.... If Israel cannot or willnot (8+ / 0-)

                    stop the settlement process this is what ISRAEL will reap. MEANING.... this is the going to happen over and over because of ISRAEL'S oppresive measures.

                    You know the saying "you reap what you sow". I blame Israel for this violence. The settlers are acting with impunity. What do they think will happen when behaving this way? Further, the settlers think they can because the government is refusing to do anything about it.

                    What did you think the antecedant of "they" was?

                    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 04:24:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Israel is reaping the West Bank. (7+ / 0-)

                      It's hardly hurting because of the ongoing colonization.

                      And

                      The settlers are acting with impunity. What do they think will happen when behaving this way?

                      The settlers think they'll get more land more quickly that way.  And they're right -- precisely because they can act with impunity.

                      Try again.

                      •  Ok again.... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        livosh1, hikerbiker, Mets102

                        seriously forget it.... You just want to be an asshole and pick a fight.

                        I agree with you once again. How is it for someone so bright (and you seem to be a smart person) sometimes you can be so fucking Stupid? How is this?

                        It's hardly hurting because of the ongoing colonization.

                        Maybe in the short run but it will face problems that down the road will destroy the State. I am thinking long term.

                        The settlers think they'll get more land more quickly that way.  And they're right -- precisely because they can act with impunity.

                        Try again.

                        Once again you have a keen sense of the obvious. And once again I agree with you, and once again despite the fact that I agree with you, you still act like a flaming asshole. UNBELIEVABLE. And what is even funnier is that the Amen brigade will be there to uprate you even though you basically are ripping me for agreeing with you. Can it get anymore absurd? Only in DKos I/P.....

                        Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 04:35:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  what a shame (5+ / 0-)

                          that you don't have a keen sense of the obvious.  For instance:

                          Maybe in the short run but it will face problems that down the road will destroy the State.

                          Hardly.  That's why a growing number of Israelis support some kind of "transfer."

                          •  Where you (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, Mets102

                            dropped on your head as a child?????

                            You think "transfer" won't destroy Israel????

                            That's why a growing number of Israelis support some kind of "transfer."

                            Yes that's true.

                            And it will destroy Israel because guess what, the Israelis are not thinking long term in this scenario. They think it will be just dandy that the U.S. and Europe will just sit by and that they can handle the fighting indefinitely in "Fortress Israel"... You seem to agree with them. I don't. I think they will push the envelope too far.

                            corvo, exactly what do you think I am saying here that you have to be this way? Maybe you just don't understand what is being said. That has to be it.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 04:50:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see no sign whatsoever (4+ / 0-)

                            that continued intransigence, or eventual transfer, would "destroy Israel."  Who's going to destroy it?

                          •  Ok.. forget it... you win (5+ / 0-)

                            the argument.

                            Sigh.........

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 05:04:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Eventual? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie

                            Make that "increased" transfer.  Israel has engaged in ongoing ethnic cleansing against Palestinians since before its Declaration of Independence.  Times of crisis have provided cover for stepped up expulsions and denials of re-entry, but systematic discrimination against Palestinians (Israeli Citizens, External Refugees and OPT residents) accomplishes disenfranchising Palestinians of their property and getting them to leave Israel/Palestine even in periods of relative calm.  The right-wing is confident that they will be able to complete the ethnic cleansing of Israel/Palestine (no matter how long it takes) because of the success they have had thusfar.  As long as the most they get from the US is empty words that even the most blatantly violent activity is "unhelpful," why should they worry?

                            "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

                            by Rusty Pipes on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 03:36:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  i think perhaps (0+ / 0-)

                  you might be just missing corvo's point. there was no accusation of "Volleyboy hates the Palestinians" and i think your heart was in a good place when you made your initial comment. but corvo has a point.

                  note in your blockquote? you've bolded everything except what corvo was referencing? i see your point, and i agree it is the sections you bolded. but let's face it volley. the talks might not produce a just solution, or they may (considering the lack of trust in palestinian representatives @ negotiations) present a solution untenable by one side. either way the point corvo was making is this settler violence can and should be stopped regardless of the talks success or not. settlers should be removed regardless of the results of the talks. it's not about 'right wing or left wing' governments in israel. it is a policy of placing and allowing fanatics on the front lines of the conflict. in the heart of the conflict.

                  israel needs to confront the fanatics in their midst now not just for the sake of the palestinians, but for the sake of israel itself. even without the palestinians or the issue of two states these people are a threat and now they've got their own militias funded by israel's tax dollars.

                  maybe it was you rushing to judgement and name calling (idiot/peanut head) and placing this hyperbole into the mix ("Volleyboy hates the Palestinians" ) doesn't help.

                  it seems like many of us are of the same mind wrt the sentiments in this diary (i appreciate) so it's a shame to have it blow up over this.

                  "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                  by zannie on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:45:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  hmm (0+ / 0-)

                  So the new rule apparently is that even when you agree with someone and say so - they get to rip you for agreeing with them.

                  Yeah, that makes sense.

                  it might help by initiating a positive response to points held in common instead of snarking them

                  Once again you have a keen sense of the obvious.

                  i appreciate the sections you bolded above. it seems both sides here hold the settlers in similar regard.

                  "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                  by zannie on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:50:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Knock It Off, VB (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zannie, valadon, capelza, corvo

          I was happpily going along reccing you when you start this crap.

          Knock it off.

          Thanx.

          You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

          by mattman on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:15:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Knock what off.... (3+ / 0-)

            I was agreeing with corvo... What the hell is happening here? I was frustrated that he can't seem to understand that. Ok, I am truly baffled.

            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 09:22:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  WTF Is This? Middle School? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes, zannie, valadon

              Knock off the NAME CALLING.  It's embarassing.

              This is a very serious and painful diary and you made some good comments THEN because of a perceived miscommunication, you go off the rails. And, frankly, I was startled by your responses.

              And, I think you really did a great disservice to this diary. And, yourself.

              You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

              by mattman on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:29:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh, please...Matt. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mattman, JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Mets102

                I was just thinking that it reminds me of an elementary school playground bullying scene, not middle school.

                Someone picks a fight, VB responds.  Big deal.

                Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                by hikerbiker on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:53:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My Very Dear Friend, Indeed VB (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tom J, Celtic Merlin, hikerbiker

                  responded - rather childishly.  At no time did corvo respond in kind or in a bullying manner.  Not his style. At all. He's one strong, smart tough dude.

                  Come on,  "peanut brain", "asshole" etc, etc. etc? VB threw ad homs like confetti.

                  Vollyboy is better than that.  At least, I HOPE he is and that this was an abberation. We all have our bad days and I am going to remove the HR.  Just wanted to get his attention and slow down what looked like a total meltdown.

                  BTW, how are you, sweet lady?  Missed you very much. You are fine moderating influence 'round these parts. And we sure could use some "moderation", eh?

                  You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

                  by mattman on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 12:41:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Hr'd for what exactly? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hikerbiker, Mets102

          So now I am HR'd for agreeing with corvo from one of Team P. Can this get any dumber?

          Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 09:21:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  NO! (0+ / 0-)

            You Got Hr'd For name - calling. Just wanted to get your attention.

            Now, just stop it, k?

            You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

            by mattman on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:21:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't know if you've seen all the abuse (4+ / 0-)

              that's been lobbed at vb over these past months...but I can't blame him for being a little prickly from time to time, including in this thread.  It is exasperating to be repeatedly and willfully misunderstood.  

              Here he was, making a reasonable statement that actually was not contradicted by corvo, and he's told that it's "nonsense".  

              While the use of that word may not generally be considered offensive or undermining around here, given the context, it clearly came across to vb as dismissive and disrespectful.

              And, in my opinion, vb is one of the most responsible and thoughtful contributors to the ongoing discussions we have here.  So, how about cutting him some slack?

              I'm glad that you removed your HR, and I don't disagree with your attempt to elevate the level of discourse.  This would be a much better discussion and we would all benefit if we saw more respect for others around here, with fewer ad homs and at the very least an assumption that most posters are well-meaning and intelligent.

              Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

              by hikerbiker on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 06:12:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  well (0+ / 0-)

                i read the nonsense comment strictly wrt the one little section corvo blockquoted. and frankly it is rather nonsense tying (virtually limiting) the corraling in of these fanatics to a 2 state solution. regardless of what comes out of these talks this activity needs to be reeled in immediately (not empowered w/private militias)

                people's nerves are on edge, that much is clear. but when someone challenges one sentence of your idea coming back with 'idiot' and getting all highly offended and not addressing the point w/out snark (a keen sense of the obvious)..

                since it seems we have a commonality wrt these settlers might it be helpful if we all joined in advocating for the same immediate response, to have the violence cease immediately and for the government of israel to do just that. it seems we agree so why fight about it.

                "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                by zannie on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:01:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, not to mention (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattman, Rusty Pipes

        there will likely be NO two-state solution...probably why we saw the Israelis suggesting that people make a "loyalty oath" to the "Jewish state." It means they may see the reality on the ground, but are afraid they'll be outnumbered.

        I can't even begin to say here what I think of this!!!

  •  Thanks, unspeakable. (19+ / 0-)

    On the subject of impunity, see this new B'Tselem report, which concludes that Israeli policy

    "effectively grants immunity to soldiers and officers, with the result that soldiers who kill Palestinians not taking part in hostilities are almost never held accountable for their misdeeds."

    •  This is pretty much what (19+ / 0-)

      the director of Shalom Achshav's Settlement Watch program had to say in her column on HuffPo:

      [A]n armed militia that the settlers hold, funded by the Israeli tax payers ... are operating independently, with no direct supervision of the police...

      This guard will probably go home after giving his testimony. The file against him will be closed with no charge, just like other similar cases, and everything will go back to "normal".

      Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

      by unspeakable on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:22:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that "armed militia" is considered (7+ / 4-)

        "Israeli civilians" here at Daily Kos... i learned the hard way.

        Free Bradley Manning!

        by Tom J on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 05:31:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  HR'd for lying and saying that (9+ / 0-)

          we consider Armed Settlers to be perfectly innocent Israeli civilians as your post implies. Please show me examples of where anyone said this militia was the same as regular Israeli citizens. Once again Tom you are lying - I wonder if your head would explode if you actually told the truth.

          Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 05:54:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  HR'ed... (8+ / 0-)

          What volley said.

          Here's some of your post-supsension comments for other users to peruse and ask the same question I do:

          Why are you still allowed to post here?

          1 (read the whole thread for a reiteration of the analogy, a defense of it, and a denial that it was even an analogy)
          2
          3

          And then there's this pre-suspension comment from Mr. Whatever. It. Takes.

          Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

          by Mets102 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 06:00:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good question. n/t (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, Mets102, issy98

            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

            by JNEREBEL on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 09:31:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Why are you still here Mr. "Misstep"? (8+ / 0-)

            Daily Kos isn't here to serve as your a voice for the extreme Israeli/Jewish voice of anything, much less one who could ever EVER refer to the massacre of people at Shatila and Shabra as a "misstep" by Israel.  

            Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

            by borkitekt on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 09:53:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It would do you a world of good... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

              to actually quote my comment, but then that kind of eviscerates any claim your making:

              There were massacres in those camps and they were war crimes, but we don't know what the Israelis knew.  Those Israelis that were knowledgeable and complicit should be held accountable, but all those knowledgeable and complicit in the deaths of innocent Israeli civilians should be standing right next to them in the dock.

              Also, despite what you might think, Kadima is hardly extremist.  I will be expecting your apology.

              Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

              by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:44:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  after it was pointed out to you? (5+ / 0-)

                Yeah, sure you got it then after MB commented, after a diary where you though you could tell who should be on dKos and who shouldn't.

                And Kadima not extremist? I could really care less how you label them, we all saw what they did to Gaza. We all saw how it was so perfectly timed to coincide with xmas and Obama's inauguration. We all saw how Kadima just couldn't figure out how to extend the ceasefire and what happened afterwards.

                Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

                by borkitekt on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:26:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Once again... (0+ / 0-)

                  it would eviscerate your point if you actually quoted what I said:

                  If you are such an extremist, if you oppose the creation of a Palestinian state or you deny Israel's legitimacy and her right to exist, I don't want you posting here.  That means that you're so blinded by ideology that you are unwilling to overlook the tremendous human costs of either of those options.  Similarly, if you propose only one state shared between Jews and Palestinians you are sufficiently naive so to as ignore the history of the region.  Remember, we're only human.  That means we're flawed creatures, and while it's nice to hope for world peace and everyone getting along, and certainly something worthwhile towards working for, we must be pragmatic...

                  If you have any other suggestions or furthering of these ideas feel free to comment.  If you seek to deny the creation of an independent Palestinian state or deny Israel's right to exist go elsewhere.

                  It was very clearly limited to that diary, and not beyond that.  My very last paragraph makes that abundantly clear.

                  And if you believe Kadima is extremist, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.  Somehow, I don't think a party that's called for borders based on the pre-Six-Day War lines and is willing to seriously consider the internationalization of the Holy Basin in Jerusalem qualifies as extremist.  If you want to see an extremist, go look at the National Union.

                  Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                  by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:49:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  not to mention that mets was (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes, zannie, borkitekt

              a confessed supporter of the extremist Likud party up until a few months ago.

              as if Likud just suddenly, in the last few weeks... out of nowhere!... went rightwing

              Free Bradley Manning!

              by Tom J on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:06:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you doubting that people (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                can change?

                You don't know Mets - who are you, G-d almighty that you know what is in a man's heart?

                Perhaps he was more exposed to what Likud is really doing and changed? Wouldn't you say that is the more likely possibility?

                Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:38:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  To volley: (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  arielle, volleyboy1

                  That is a great part of what happened.  If one looks at what I've actually said all along about the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has not changed.  I've been consistent in my support of a two-state solution based upon the 1949 Armistice lines with slight modifications in the form of equal land swaps.

                  Therefore, when presented with additional evidence, I incorporated that evidence into my determination of which party to support.  I have done nothing different than what many people who shift their support of political party have done.  I came to realize that the party I supported did not accurately reflect my beliefs, and accordingly I therefore shifted my support of parties.

                  Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                  by Mets102 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:50:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  HR removed on Tom - since I answered (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102

                    his question... I could not allow that comment to be left up unanswered and since he was out of hiddens for his despicable remark anyway, I figured I would remove the HR.

                    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:59:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Uprating... (11+ / 0-)

          I, too, noticed that the term "Israeli civilians" was used...

          Tom did not mean all of Kos, to think that is being just silly.

          I have said here ihese very I/P that I learned things right here (like I Native Americans are rolling in the casino dough and drink because we are just bored) at Daily Kos, and yet I was not HR'd for saying it that way.   Because people knew what I meant.

          Again, Tom is right, the people who were murdered by the Hamas branch were referred to  by many as "Israeli civilians", rather than the more correct term "Settler".   I noticed it then as well.   Thre is no excuse for their murders, but their status as illegal settlers in the West Bank is completely ignored by simply calling them "Israeli civilians"

          Will I get Hr'd, too?  

          •  and of course, i came out against those (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie

            actions, the killing of settlers on the highway. they were, in a real way, civilians. we don't know their ideology (and the people who opened fire on them did not know their ideology... important point) but even if they were militants... at the moment they were not engaged in militant action.

            on the other hand... when an armed group (and i can't imagine them being unarmed, because i doubt some of this militants go to the crapper without a semi-automatic...much less right into Palestinian olive grove) go into an Olive grove and steal a farmers yearly income (that was called "petty theft" by a few wise and wonderful kossacks... without any rebuke by the DK administration) these are NOT Israeli civilians. and we know they are supported by the Israeli regime... they are acting with impunity... when i suggest it understandable and noble that Palestinians respond with force to a campaign of racist terror...

            Palestinians do not have the option of just calling 911 instead. and merely publicizing their plight .. that's probably the best option... but we can see clearly what kind of response they get from many (they are presumed to be raving anti-semites...by some Kossacks... again without rebuke from the administration) ... they get blamed (or at least partial blame) and Congress (most of them, at least) is wondering how much they can increase military aid to Israel, and the plight of the Palestinians who are victims on an illegal occupation is ignored.

            when the occupation ends and a just society emerge, many of even the most extreme settlers are likely to change, and start treating Palestinians as equals... or at least acting decently.

            so if one wants all the violence to end, against settler and against Palestinians.. we must come out unequivocally against the illegal, immoral, insane occupation. and against funding its continuation.

            don't blame Palestinian farmers defending their crops with stones. I blame Hoyer and Boehner for defending the indefensible with US weaponry.

            finally, while i think the dk admin was wrong to accuse me of favoring harm to "civilians", i do appreciate that we can talk about this at all. Talking about the rights of Palestinians is totally absent in Congress... that it is allowed to go on here at all is  a miracle.  

            PS I want to thank Jimmy Smits for sponsoring this comment.

            Free Bradley Manning!

            by Tom J on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 07:33:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Uprated for HR abuse (7+ / 0-)

          There is nothing wrong with what what said here and there was an adequate explanation.

          Daily Kos= administrative explanation not "pro-Israeli" people here..for crying out loud.

  •  Keep telling their story. (16+ / 0-)

    So this very political diary is written in honor of the people in Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah and all the other villages of East Jerusalem who are being ethnically cleansed from their homes, while their history and culture is being erased with all deliberate speed. Their story deserves to be told.

    Thank you for your eloquence and big heart.

    [H]uman history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. H. Zinn

    by soysauce on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:35:46 PM PDT

  •  American philanthropy (12+ / 0-)

    funds some of the settlement in Silwan.  

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:53:40 PM PDT

    •  I believe both Ateret Cohanim (17+ / 0-)

      and ELAD receive donations from Americans. This should, of course, be as illegal as donating to groups like Hamas, but there's a snowball's chance in the deepest pit of fiery Hell of that happening.

      Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

      by unspeakable on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:05:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Their main building (11+ / 0-)

        is named in honor of  Jon Pollard, the American convicted of espionage.  

        Yes, these are the "red heifer" people.

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:15:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  oy va voy (7+ / 0-)

          named in honor of  Jon Pollard

          shame, shame, shame.

          Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

          by hikerbiker on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:48:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Traitor Jonathan Pollard: (0+ / 0-)

          Pollard was sentenced to life in prison on one count of espionage on March 4, 1987.

          I hope he does the entire sentence and dies in prison many, many years from now.  He deserved the sentence he got and he should do it all.

          But who names buildings in honor of convicted felons and traitors to their country?  Seriously, who does that shit?

          Celtic Merlin
          Carlinist

          Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

          by Celtic Merlin on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:15:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with you about Jonathan Pollard (3+ / 0-)

            but I don't get this comment:

            But who names buildings in honor of convicted felons and traitors to their country?  Seriously, who does that shit?

            The guys who did this are Israelis. Pollard is not a traitor to Israel he is a traitor to the U.S.

            But you are right - Pollard is a traitor to our country (The United States) and should rot in prison. I have no problem with that at all.

            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

            by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:40:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The "their" in this: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Futuristic Dreamer

              But who names buildings in honor of convicted felons and traitors to their country?  Seriously, who does that shit?

              Refers to the person who is the traitor.  The traitor is a traitor to THEIR country.  As in "traitor to their own country".  Do you understand what I mean by that sentence now?  It would be impossible to be a traitor to a nation of which you are not a citizen.

              And don't start on Pollard's dual citizenship - he was an American citizen and ONLY an American citizen at the time of his conviction in 1987.  Pollard applied for Israeli citizenship 1995.

              Also, for thirteen years Israel publicly denied that Pollard was an Israeli spy.  Benny Net finally admitted in 1998 that Pollard was indeed working for the Israeli government.  Perhaps this is what makes Pollard such a hero to the people of Israel that buildings are named in his honor, huh?

              I've scraped dog shit from the sole of my shoe which was a higher life form than that waste of oxygen.  May he die behind prison walls as should all who act against the USA on behalf of foreign nations and governments.

              Celtic Merlin
              Carlinist

              Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

              by Celtic Merlin on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:57:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Huh... did you not read my post (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hikerbiker, Mets102

                at all?:

                What is this?

                And don't start on Pollard's dual citizenship - he was an American citizen and ONLY an American citizen at the time of his conviction in 1987.  Pollard applied for Israeli citizenship 1995.

                I wrote:

                But you are right - Pollard is a traitor to our country (The United States) and should rot in prison. I have no problem with that at all.

                As for my other comment I was pointing out that the people in Beit Yonatan did not name their building after a traitor to their country. Is Jonathan Pollard a traitor to Israel? If so, I didn't realize that.

                Anyway, I don't disagree with you in any way, shape, or form about Pollard. What's the problem here?

                Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:31:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You agree but intentionally misunderstand. (0+ / 0-)

                  Anyway, I don't disagree with you in any way, shape, or form about Pollard. What's the problem here?

                  On the man himself, we're cool brother.

                  On this, however:

                  As for my other comment I was pointing out that the people in Beit Yonatan did not name their building after a traitor to their country. Is Jonathan Pollard a traitor to Israel? If so, I didn't realize that.

                  Did you decide to IGNORE this in my previous comment which clarifies the "their" in my original comment?:

                  The "their" in this:

                  But who names buildings in honor of convicted felons and traitors to their country?  Seriously, who does that shit?

                  Refers to the person who is the traitor.  The traitor is a traitor to THEIR country.  As in "traitor to their own country".  Do you understand what I mean by that sentence now?  It would be impossible to be a traitor to a nation of which you are not a citizen.

                  NOWHERE do I even come within a lightyear's distance of saying or even implying that Pollard was a traitor to Israel.  In fact, I was VERY SPECIFIC (if you bother to read the blockquote above) about Pollard's traitorous status - against the USA.

                  And this question is NOT rhetorical:

                  Benny Net finally admitted in 1998 that Pollard was indeed working for the Israeli government.  Perhaps this is what makes Pollard such a hero to the people of Israel that buildings are named in his honor, huh?

                  Celtic Merlin
                  Carlinist

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 12:22:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ok... I am baffled so (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102

                    consider me dumb... I still don't get what you are trying to say unless is that it makes sense to you that people in Israel would name a building after Pollard. Is that what you are trying to say?

                    I would disagree with that only in that it doesn't make sense when you consider the U.S. is Israel's best buddy and helps them out.

                    Anyhow, now I am the one being a peanut head since I seem to be missing your point.

                    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:31:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He is saying (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      hikerbiker, volleyboy1, Mets102

                      no one from anywhere should name a building or bestow a similar honorific on anyone from anywhere who was a traitor to whatever nation they were a citizen of.

                      Like, who would name a park in, for instance, Wichita Falls, Pol Pot Park?

                      Get it now?  It was all a little convoluted (mechanically) but, weirdly, when my blood sugar just dropped to dangerous levels, I got it in a snap.

                      Go figure.  lol

                    •  Don't do that. Please. (0+ / 0-)

                      The "peanut head" (even upon yourself) and some of the other insults I've seen come from your keyboard under this diary are still inappropriate.

                      And, for the sake of peace in my world, what arielle said is close enough.

                      You can skip the question I asked (as you have twice already) since I believe I've seen the answer to that elsewhere.

                      C M
                      C

                      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                      by Celtic Merlin on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 05:36:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Tear gas launcher (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mattman, capelza, volleyboy1, Mets102

    I don't see the weapon being handled inappropriately.  It seems he is aiming along a sightline down an alley which slopes away.  I don't see it being aimed to strike a person.  Skipping a projectile along the ground is another way to get it to where it is intended, and is a legitimate technique.  (takes some skill, though)

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:31:09 PM PDT

  •  Thank you unspeakable.. (17+ / 0-)

    I'm so sorry about the killing of Samer Sarhan, and perhaps another person.   Apparently Israeli police is not being forthcoming about releasing info about the other wounded, as David from Sheik Jarrah Solitidarity notes in his piece this afternoon,
    Jerusalaem Syndrome. Excerpt:

    1. The backdrop: The Jewish settlers in Silwan have a set up a private armed militia for themselves, and we all foot the bill. 65 million New Israeli Shekels ($17.5 Million) are paid out every year by the Israeli Ministry of Housing to guard a couple of hundred Jewish settlers in the middle of Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem. The guards are regularly briefed by the settlers, and very often are hired by the heads of the right-wing organizations. The guards are armed only with live ammunition. This is how an armed militia that is operated by the settlers came to be.  These militiamen have opened with live fire at least seven times in the last three months. And those are just the occurrences that I am aware of, apparently there have been many more. This time it ended in disaster.

    [..]

    1. Missing people: Up until now, 18 hours after the event, nobody knows exactly how many people were injured by the shooting. Early rumours contended that there was another casualty, and 18 year-old youth who was in the area. Jerusalem hospitals, the Institute for Forensic Medicine in Abu Kabir and the Israeli Magen David Adom refused to provide any information whatsoever regarding those injured or killed during the event, and what their condition was. Even the information that Samer was killed was given to his family only many hours later. According to reporters a blanket silence such as this, where no one is willing to provide information, many hours after the event, was exceptional to say the least. Although we’ve already seen situations where hospitals and Magen David Adom have been threatened by the Israeli security forces and prefer not to become embroiled, however, in general, after a couple of hours the information becomes public. Not in this case. (As opposed to the conspicuous prominence of hordes of Israeli hospital directors who are interviewed after every Palestinian terrorist attack).

    And for those interested here's an in depth pdf from Ir Imim on Israel's and settler plans/actions in Silwan; Shady Dealings in Silwan.

  •  Tipped and recc'd (10+ / 0-)

    Thanks for the well-written diary.

  •  TY so much! (6+ / 0-)

    I'm sharing tipping and rec'ng one of these days the truth will be accepted by more people.

    You know I started talking about this subject years ago, and at that time I was much more naive about what was really happening in Palestine. I thought, like a lot of people, that one needed to give equal consideration to the justified claims of each side and as well to the errors of both sides.

    Well, as I've become more enlightened about the actual circumstances affecting the lives of Palestinians under a harsh occupation and Apartheid and of the ethnic cleansing, I can no longer maintain an equivalence between the two...I've felt this way for quite some time now and perhaps that's why other's might have perceived that I have simply run out of patience with Israeli government apologists.

    I make no apologies for seeing the humanitarian need of fellow human beings.

    •  Also TY for the mention of Joseph Dana (5+ / 0-)

      http://josephdana.com/  and his superb photographs!

      Bio:

      Joseph Dana is a writer and filmmaker living in Jerusalem. He has two Master’s degrees in Jewish History, one from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and one from the Central European University in Budapest. Dana’s work focuses on the Palestinian unarmed resistence movements throughout the West Bank and the impact of Israel’s occupation on Palestinian life. He often draws on his knowledge of Jewish history to understand Israel’s current political/social situation and relationship to the Palestinians in the longue duree of the Jewish people. He is a contributing editor of the Israeli web magazine +972 and assists the Popular Struggle Coordination Committee. Dana is active in Israeli direct action groups such as Taayush and the Anarchists Against the Wall.

      People like Joseph will help to change things!

  •  unspeakable (12+ / 0-)

    You know my heart breaks when I see this, and I want to turn away.  

    But I keep reading and looking, just trying to wrap my head around the insanity.

    I spoke with a relative in Jerusalem today and asked about the situation in Silwan.  I was told that all their knowledge of this had been obtained via tv news, and that it was very far away (from home) and didn't really affect anyone (in my family).

    I think that many otherwise kind and decent Israelis are just in denial about this and other injustices carried out against Palestinians.  The tensions are so great all the time that I think that many Israelis just try to shut it out and go about their business of daily life, trying to pretend that these things aren't happening.

    A common phrase in Israel is "Ein braerah"/there's no choice, ie:  we're just stuck in this situation.  Another common expression is Cacha ze...Ma la'asot?/  That's how it is...what can you do?

    These defeatist phrases reflect the passive attitude which makes the status quo so hard to change.

    I think that your eloquent sharing what you know can have a positive impact and I would hope to see your writing published somewhere accessible to Israeli readers.

    Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

    by hikerbiker on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:25:46 PM PDT

    •  May All That Gods There Be (5+ / 0-)

      thank, protect and comfort you and yours. And all the Palestinians who suffer so terribly, as well. They are all my brothers and sisters, too.

      Please, oh, please, let this madness and suffering end!

      What pawns in what terrible game are we?

      You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

      by mattman on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 01:10:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm linking to you (7+ / 0-)

    on my blog--this was a great diary!

    Michele

    http://valadon.posterous.com/

  •  Allah Yerhamu. (10+ / 0-)

    wa kul al mowta.

    Thank you for bringing this to us. Tipped and rec'd.

    "I have a vision of our rights as indigenous people. We didn't migrate to Israel; it is Israel that migrated to us." Haneen Zoabi, interview in the New Stateman

    by Fire bad tree pretty on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:07:23 PM PDT

  •  From Joseph's pictures (8+ / 0-)


     title=

    http://twitpic.com/... Joseph Dana

    Legend:
    This is what the army is using here against kids and families in silwan


  •  thanks for your important diary (4+ / 0-)

    appreciate it.

    "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

    by zannie on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:02:25 AM PDT

  •  Tipped and Recommended, unspeakable. (5+ / 0-)

    Yet another incident in a very, very long list of incidents which tell the gruesome tale of Palestinian Life under the Sphere of Israeli Influence.

    Thanks for the diary, my friend.

    Celtic Merlin
    Carlinist

    Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

    by Celtic Merlin on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:05:40 AM PDT

  •  Update:: (5+ / 0-)

    Via Joseph Dana live from E. Jerusalem.

    UPDATE: "This just happened in Isawieh not in Silwan. 14 month old baby dies form tear gas in Isawieh in the last 30 minutes"

    Twitter

  •  Translated from Hebrew (5+ / 0-)

    by another Journalist:

    "Sheikh Jarrah - are fighting for Jerusalem shooting again Silwan. In the last hours a large force of police entered Silwan. Activists are instead reported heavy firing in the area. Abaswiah 14-month-old baby died of complications from tear gas inhalation."

     
    שוב ירי בסילואן. בשעות האחרונות כוח גדול של משטרה נכנס לסילואן. פעילים שנמצאים במקום מדווחים על ירי כבד באזור.... http://fb.me/...

    http://twitter.com/...

  •  Thank you, unspeakable! n/t (5+ / 0-)

    "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

    by Rusty Pipes on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 03:21:26 PM PDT

  •  Wonderful article (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie, soysauce, hikerbiker

    if you guys haven't read yet:

    Israel's Palestinian partner is ready and waiting
    Abdallah Abu Rahma, a Palestinian peace activist in the West Bank, and his story exemplifies the complexity of the current situation.

    By Libby Lenkinski Friedlander

    For most Israelis, who have had little or no interaction with Palestinians for at least the past decade, the "Palestinian partner" remains an abstract concept. As a result, we spend a lot of time seeking a clear definition of what that ideal partner for ending the occupation would be: Who would be acceptable? What is the ideal profile? As a civil society worker, I have a face for the Palestinian partner that I want to see, in the abstract and in flesh and blood. I have met him. But my Palestinian partner is now in jail as a "security prisoner" - convicted of illegal acts and facing a harsh sentence to be determined by a military judge in the coming weeks.

    I met Abdallah Abu Rahma in 2009 when I was handling media for Physicians for Human Rights-Israel. Among other activities, PHR provided first-aid training to Palestinian, Israeli and international activists after the death of Bassem Abu Rahma, who was killed in Bil'in that April after being shot in the chest with a tear-gas canister at one of the weekly protests that have been held in the village since February 2005. Abdallah, a 39-year-old high-school teacher and father of three, and a distant relative of Bassem's, was Bil'in's media coordinator, and thus my direct counterpart and partner in the project. We were in touch daily and met several times. Abdallah was always in his trademark suit and tie, an outfit that is a source of affectionate attention among the Israeli activist crowd.

    More:
    Haaretz

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