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 title=RKBA is a DKos group of second amendment supporters who also have progressive and liberal values. We don't think that being a liberal means one has to be anti-gun. Some of us are extreme in our second amendment views (no licensing, no restrictions on small arms) and some of us are more moderate (licensing, restrictions on small arms.) Moderate or extreme, we hold one common belief: more gun control equals lost elections. We don't want a repeat of 1994. We are an inclusive group: if you see the Second Amendment as safeguarding our right to keep and bear arms individually, then come join us in our conversation. If you are against the right to keep and bear arms, come join our conversation. We look forward to seeing you, as long as you engage in a civil discussion. RKBA stands for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Jay from PA:

Hi folks, Jay from PA here.

Toward the goal of not forgetting that the home of one of our own kossacks was invaded recently, with the perpetrator assaulting her and battering her before she could call for help, I'm going to share with you a number of other home invasion stories that have crossed my computer screen lately.

This may seem like a lot, but it's just a fraction of the total, and only covers two weeks of late august and early september. I'd like you to be sure to read through each link...

**********

HUGHSONVILLE – State Police in Dutchess County are looking for a man who entered a woman’s home through the back door early Thursday morning and sexually assaulted her.
link

*****

"A female victim advised that she was startled by a white male wearing a ski mask and armed with a knife in the hallway of her residence. The suspect then physically battered her but she was not struck or harmed by the knife.
link

*****

Elmwood home invasion
link

*****

Why do people not check their doors?

Monticello home invasion under investigation
link

*****

Herrin Homeowner wrestles with would-be burglar
link

*****

Do you really think banning guns, just like the most gun-banningest state there is (New Jersey), is going to end murder?

Trial Ordered for Kensington Man In Girlfriend’s Brutal Murder
link

*****

The news has been touching on the Petit case for days. That's the one where the home invaders demanded a ransom, the mom was very sure paying the ransom would free her family, and only the dad survived.

link

*****

Resident bound with duct tape during Lake Villa home invasion
link

*****

"He took me and slammed me into this door frame. That's where I almost lost consciousness and from there he just body slammed me into the rug, just picked me up and boom," said Hilgendorf.
link

*****

Police found that two male suspects entered the home in the first 100 block of Filkow Bay and sprayed three people with pepper spray.
link

*****

Are you in a nice area? Low crime? Does this make you a soft target?

The neighborhood, located on the outskirts of Huntersville, is a low-crime area, according to CMPD. Between Jan. 1 and Aug. 29, only six incidents were reported to police within a half-mile radius of the Autumncrest Road home invasion.
link

*****

Do you know when and where you are most vulnerable?

According to Miami-Dade Police spokesman Detective Alvaro Zabaleta, 74-year-old Antonio Alvarez was parking his car inside his garage in the 14-thousand block of SW 80th Street Sunday night around 9:30 p.m. when three men wearing ski masks and dark clothing approached him.
link

*****

Police said the woman, 55, was on the phone when a man entered her home about 10.45pm, put his hands over her eyes and told her to hang up.
link

*****

The Wilkes Sheriff’s Department report says that Melissa Leann Higgins answered a knock at her door at about 4:30 Sunday morning, finding a white male there who asked to use her phone.
link

*****

The man, wearing a red hooded sweatshirt and a white cloth over his face, knocked on the door of the woman's mobile home on Costa Drive shortly after 3 p.m., said Kevin Doll, spokesman for the Pasco County Sheriff's Office.
link

*****

The intruder kept a 63-year-old man, 49-year-old woman and a 14-year-old girl in the home for more than three hours while he searched the residence, police said. He stole several undisclosed items, then drove away in the Nissan.
link

*****

Two teens, accused in the rape of a 90-year-old woman on Detroit’s west side and ransacking of her home last month, have been bound over to Wayne County Circuit Court on all charges
link

*****

Here's one local to me.

Two men are charged with a home invasion robbery in Palmer Township and police said the men broke into the disabled woman's home Thursday because they needed money for beer, according to court records.
link

*****

Here's another one local to me. There's been a string of home invasions, 9 total last I knew, no leads for the cops. The people at home had their air conditioners running, so never heard a damn thing. Cash and electronics stolen while they slept, and all those people are damn lucky the invader was only after material objects.

Then an attempt was made and broken off. Watch this guy they think is cracking houses...

It's a good thing that neighbor randomly spooked him by coming out onto their back porch, and he neglected to move the garbage can back to the window. But it's a lesson to LOCK YOUR WINDOWS AND DOORS!
*****

MIAMI, Okla. — Four defendants, who were charged with murder when an accomplice in a Miami home invasion was stabbed to death by an occupant, pleaded guilty to amended charges Friday and received prison sentences.
link

*****

Home invader fatally shot by armed homeowner
link

*****

World War II veteran fights off suspect in Cape Cod home invasion
link

*****

The woman said she put down the baby and yelled for her husband. The man tried to shock the couple with the Taser, but they chased him into the garage, where the husband held the man down while his wife beat him with a leaf blower and a tennis racket, the husband said.
link

*****

Gabbard was compliant with the intruders’ demands, but "felt imminent danger coming his way," according to Chief Deputy Anthony Dwyer. That’s when Gabbard went to another room and returned with a 7.62 mm caliber semiautomatic rifle
link

*****

He pushed her face into the mattress so hard she could barely breathe, and told her not to move or yell. But she fought back.
link

*****

The new neighborhood status symbol was a laser sight (for a gun). But "He" continued breaking in, each home invasion becoming more violent. The police were here in full force, in uniform and undercover, for months. The Sheriff's Department sent men and dogs. "He" kept breaking in, playing his crazy version of catch me if you can.
link

*****

Most home invasions happen in broad day light, when the family is feeling secure and the doors are unlocked.
link

*****

"...but number one about the gun: I could barely get this drunk to let me go, it was positively the scariest thing that ever happened to me EVER. I could not get away...it I'd had a gun, he would have gotten it away from me, no doubt about it."
link

There's no reason the next time has to be like the first time. No reason at all. And remember that the cops can't come until after 911 is dialed on the phone. And then you add a bit of time for the dispatch officer to send the info to a rolling unit. Finally, you have to sit tight waiting for some cops to make their way from wherever they happen to be to you. How's the response time of the cops lately? Is the budget crunches removing officers and equipment, making responses longer? Is the overwork causing your crime to be given less attention then it merits, because there just aren't enough hours in the remaining cops' day?

If you aren't going to let the next time be like the last time, what are YOU going to do to make it different?

KV warning: some viewers/listeners might find the youtube video below disturbing.

OMwordTHRUdaFOG:

It's not easy to have to shoot someone, especially if you're a police officer in a liberal city like Austin. Officer Leonardo Quintana shoots an armed perp who it turns out is out on bail for armed robbery. He appears to be suffering from PTSD & is fired and the kids family whom he shot sues the city.... The Texas CC class stresses the probable legal & financial costs associated w/ a justifiable shooting

link

Former Austin officer Leonardo Quintana, who is also named in the suit filed today, fatally shot Sanders in May 2009 in an apartment complex parking lot after officials said they struggled for a gun.

Quintana was suspended for 15 days for not activating his patrol car camera, but Police Chief Art Acevedo found that his use of deadly force did not violate departmental policy. Quintana has since been fired after a drunken driving arrest in January, but is appealing the termination.

The wrongful death suit said that Quintana violated Sanders’ civil rights, among other allegations. The city this year was dropped from the suit, which also named Quintana, but the city is still responsible for any damages against him.

and

link

The shooting "is something I don't think anybody, police officer or not, wants to do in a lifetime," Quintana said. "It is something extremely difficult to have to live with and deal with."

A decision by hearing examiner Louise Wolitz is not expected for at least a month.

Assistant City Attorney Michael Cronig said that according to a recent Texas Supreme Court ruling, Wolitz can reinstate Quintana with no discipline, issue a suspension of up to 15 days or uphold the termination. Hearing examiners have traditionally had the option of issuing a suspension between 16 and 90 days.

Police officials have said that Quintana fatally shot Sanders in May 2009 outside the Walnut Creek Apartments on Springdale Road after the two struggled for a weapon.

(And something not DGU related follows. I'd like to point out that we're not advocating being crazy and shooting at police. I'd think that's common sense, but people have accused us of worse. -KV)

An 'Insurgency' of one holds of 100-150 LEO's

link

Victor White, 55, of Odessa, surrendered as SWAT team members in an armored vehicle closed in on him outside his trailer in Odessa,  Earlier, White got inside a sheriff's vehicle and used the radio to urge snipers to make him a martyr. The two Ector County deputies were hospitalized in fair condition Saturday, and the other man, who went to trailer in some kind of property dispute, was treated and released, authorities and hospital officials said. Throughout the standoff, White sporadically opened fire on a DPS helicopter and on officers from a large dirt mound that contained trenches, bunkers and fighting positions, Barton said. The barricade, which had a white cross and flagpole on top, was built near the trailer where White lived with no utility connections on property that covers several acres. "It was a service call for some kind of dispute, something to do with vehicles or a water well," Barton said. Barton said White began firing and struck all three men. When they retreated for cover, White got into a sheriff's department truck and began making threats on the radio, Barton said. "He got on the radio and basically was spouting off things about the deputies and law enforcement, making political and religious statements and making comments urging the snipers to make him a martyr," Barton said. Barton said White has connections to white supremacist organizations and longtime links to the Republic of Texas, There were between 100 and 150 officers at the scene, "From the FBI all the way down to the dog catcher," he said.

Originally posted to R K B A on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 09:36 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Stripper Clips [TJ] (17+ / 0-)

    For guns like the Nagant.

    What were YOU thinking?

    Interested in joining the RKBA email list? Shoot an email to dkos.rkba at gmail.com with your DKos username.

    by R K B A on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 09:36:01 AM PDT

  •  Another DGU: (14+ / 0-)

    (h/t: Virginia Citizens Defense League)

    WADSWORTH, Ohio - Wadsworth police say a gun-carrying couple helped them catch a man who was allegedly beating his girlfriend in a parking lot in front of her two small children.

    Officers said the couple pulled into the Wadsworth McDonald's on High Street Sunday and saw a man hitting a woman in another vehicle.

    Video on the link.

    If you want to fight and die for my right to sit here and bitch, sleep with whomever you want.

    by kestrel9000 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 09:44:44 AM PDT

  •  Here's a thought... (11+ / 0-)

    ...for those who will posit that a "home invasion" is only a burglary, and that there is no need to use force in such a situation - if someone has broken into your home, can you really trust that they will only take things and leave?

    I'm not bloodthirsty. In my 50+ years I have never sought to use a gun on someone, and I pray that I will be able to see that same trend to the end of my life. But if someone breaks into my house, I have to assume that they are willing to inflict injury or death on me and mine. And I will use force to prevent that.

    This is why states have a "castle doctrine" - and I'm glad mine does.

    Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

    by Shadan7 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 09:50:59 AM PDT

    •  for those who would posit that, (10+ / 0-)

      http://azstarnet.com/...

      Junior, the Father and 9yo Brisenia died, the mother Gina was able to return fire and wound one of the suspects. In doing so she gave the police physical blood evidence they were able to use to nail the scumbag minimen wannabes  

    •  wanta be ninja's make the rounds around here (7+ / 0-)

      probably harmless kids... One came in one night... b/4 I had dogs.. or locks on the doors... IMAGINE

      Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

      by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:02:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  anybody that can posit that has never been the (9+ / 0-)

      victim of such a heinous crime.

      Your home is your sanctuary, in both the legal and spiritual sense.  Short of rape or kidnapping I'm hard pressed to think of a bigger violation of the person than a home invasion.

      Anybody who is willing to break into an occupied residence is so fucked up in the head as to give the occupants a legitimate reason to fear for their lives.  Even the bluest of the blue states typically codify this into law.  New York State (ya know, that bastion of right wing ideology) says that deadly force is justified against someone committing burglary or arson against the home.

      There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

      by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:23:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your home is your sanctuary (5+ / 0-)

        An Apt or condo is virtual communal property, often zero control over repair persons visits.

        Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

        by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:12:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  whose fault is that? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Into The Woods, theatre goon

          I've never signed a lease that didn't give me say over when the Landlord or his people visited.  They always had to give me advance notice and barring emergencies (floods/fires and the like) were not allowed into the apartment if I was not home.  I thought this was pretty much boilerplate but I guess not?

          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

          by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:05:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Unfortunately... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound, Dickie, buddabelly, Crookshanks

            ...at least, where I am, it is the landlord who gets to determine just what is or is not an emergency.

            And, all too often, the advance warning they're supposed to give you is a call where if it rings twice without answer, they hang up.

            At least, that's my personal unfortunate experience as a renter, at least in one apartment complex I lived in for a time.  The law was very much not on the side of the renter, at that time -- may still be, actually, but I no longer rent.

            •  as with anything you have to be willing to stand (4+ / 0-)

              up for your rights or lose them.

              I fought this battle with my current Landlord because he's trying to sell the place.  Realtor just showed up one morning with a bunch of people who wanted to see the place and no prior notice.  I turned her away.  The Landlord was REALLY ticked off about that and went so far as to threaten to sue me but backed down when I responded in kind and told him that all future correspondence would have to go through my attorney since he threatened a lawsuit.

              As an aside, I would NEVER rent from a complex or management company.  Been there, done that.  I've had much better luck renting from individuals, where handshakes are worth more than credit scores.  The nameless faceless bureaucracy of a complex is not for me.

              There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

              by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:18:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm with you... (3+ / 0-)

                At the time, though, the apartment complex was the only option.  Plus, it was in a poor part of town, the owners knew nobody could afford to fight 'em.

                A big part of why I am no longer a renter.

                :-)

                •  I'd love to get out of renting.... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buddabelly, theatre goon

                  .... unfortunately I live in the state with the highest property tax rates in the nation and can not afford a mortgage + the tax bill + the maintenance bill.

                  Such is life in the Empire State :(

                  There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                  by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:31:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Had I not moved to Arizona from Ca. I'd be in the (3+ / 0-)

                    same if not worse position.

                    I know that even though I took a major pay cut when I moved here, I still did much better financially here than I would have there due to the col......I would not have my home, humble as she is, she's mine.....

                    That was 25 years ago though

                    It's not the same now unfortunately though maybe in a few years after the housing market really finishes the shakeout and is at bottom, Az will be very good again.

                    •  I'm not sure where I'd move to if I left NYS.... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      buddabelly, theatre goon

                      PA usually tops my list but their economy is nearly as bad as ours is.  I liked what I saw of UT but I'd imagine that (beside from the gun laws) I'd grow weary of their politics after awhile.

                      I also have the "misfortune" of having a job that's pretty hard to walk away from.  4 weeks of vacation, great benefits, relaxed atmosphere, etc.

                      I'm close enough to the state line that I could move over the border to PA but if I did that I'd have to give up my NYS pistol license.  Since the neighboring county in PA is rural I'd be doing most of my shopping and social activities on this side of the border and I'm not willing to give up the concealed carry license that I had to work so hard to get.

                      There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                      by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:47:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I can't imagine living anywhere that snow sticks (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        theatre goon

                        to the ground more than a couple hours.

                        I don't mind being hot but being cold sucks.....

                        That leaves me the Deserts or the Swamps and I prefer the desert.....Take a look at the Sonoran Desert Museum site when you get time.....I think the borderlands here are some of the most beautiful yet most desolate and dangerous I've ever seen.  I fell in love the minute I saw Tucson and really never looked back....

                        Having a good job is a hell of an incentive though,  I remember those days......

                        •  see, I look at it the other way.... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          buddabelly, theatre goon

                          ... I can always ADD more clothes to keep warm.  There's a limit to how many I can take off without being arrested, at least in public :D

                          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                          by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 04:43:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

        •  That varies by State. (5+ / 0-)

          California law recognizes an apartment as one's domicile, in terms of your legal rights while within its walls.

          Your landlord cannot, in this State, enter your apartment without permission. And, as forced entry, in California, is justification for the use of deadly force, (you are presumed to be in danger of death or serious bodily harm,) if he ignores this, you are legally entitled to shoot him.

          Granted, that'd be an over reaction, and as California does not have a law precluding civil suit if a shooting is ruled to be self-defense, you will be sued, and you will lose. Hell, people have been successfully sued here for running over armed carjackers!

          But the point is, your landlord's entry rights are controlled not only by your lease, but by State and local statutes. Look it up, and know your rights, and insist on them, if you rent. Renting property is a business arrangement, don't be nice. Don't be an asshole, either... have no personal feelings whatsoever.

          Most Castle Doctrine laws recognize rented and temporary dwellings as one's residence for the purposes of legal self-defense... but make sure you know the laws where you live!!

          --Shannon

          "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
          "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

          by Leftie Gunner on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 04:52:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  "Only a burglary"... (8+ / 0-)

      Anyone saying that doesn't know what the word burglary means.  Specifically, it is the act of breaking into a home to commit a felony.  Not (just) theft, but any felony.  

      If your home is being invaded/broken into then you have no idea what the invaders are going to do with you.  Maybe they'll just disable you and steal your jewelry, or maybe they're looking to sexually assault someone...either way it is burglary.

      •  New York State defines it as breaking into a (7+ / 0-)

        structure with the intent to commit a crime therein.  It does not limit the crime to felonies or require that it actually be committed, only that the intent be there.

        If your drunk next door neighbor breaks into your house and passes out on the couch he hasn't committed burglary.  If he picks up the TV or assaults one of your family members (or has the intent to do either) then he has.

        There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

        by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:31:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Intent should have been in my original (7+ / 0-)

          post.  It is generally that way across the country, so far as I know' I believe the term comes from old common law.

        •  Isn't the act of breaking into someone else's (5+ / 0-)

          home, a crime in itself?  Or is that excluded from the "intent" requirement?

          If someone is in the act of breaking a door or window to enter someone else's home it would seem to create a fairly strong presumption that they intended to commit a crime and are not there to either deliver Girl Scout cookies or to take a nap.  

          If, however, I wake up or come home to find someone sleeping in a drunken stupor on my couch, the presumption might change (as would the level of threat they posed and my ability to take other actions to protect myself and my family).  

          Each situation is unique, but you won't have to worry about defending yourself in court if you couldn't defend yourself from fatal home invasion.  

          Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

          by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:22:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  NYS Penal Law Section 140.20: (5+ / 0-)

            A person is guilty of burglary in the third degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building with intent to commit a crime therein.

            Emphasis mine.  

            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

            by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:25:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wouldn't... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Shadan7, buddabelly, oldpunk

              ...trespassing count as the crime therein?

              I mean, that might mean the drunk passing out on your couch wasn't committing burglary, as he didn't actually have intent, but it seems too fine a distinction to really make much difference.

              But, I'm not a lawyer, I only sometimes play one on stage.

              •  But that's already included in the first (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shadan7, buddabelly, oldpunk, theatre goon

                threshold of "enters or remains unlawfully", I would guess.

                It might make sense, because if I tell my brother-in-law to go the hell home, and he doesn't, he's probably "remaining unlawfully".

                That doesn't mean I could shoot him, legally.  

                Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

                by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:16:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  fine distinctions matter in the legal system.... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shadan7, buddabelly, oldpunk, theatre goon

                ... if you shot the drunk passed out on your couch in this state you are almost certainly going to jail.  Now if you discover him passed out in your six year old daughters bed.....

                Besides, from a moral standpoint I wouldn't shoot someone who wasn't a threat to me even if it was legal to do so.  There's a special place in hell for people that shoot someone just because they can, IMHO anyway.

                There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 04:46:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, sure... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Shadan7, buddabelly, oldpunk, Crookshanks

                  ...but I was actually not considering whether or not to shoot in that situation, just exactly which law our hypothetical Otis was breaking.

                  Otis was the regular drunk on the Andy Griffith Show, right?  Not trying to pick on any real person with that name.  :-)

                  •  he'd be committing trespass..... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    oldpunk, theatre goon

                    .... in NYS you can use physical force against such a person to the extent necessary to remove them from your property.  You can not use deadly physical force though.

                    I am not a lawyer either but I believe that it only becomes burglary if they commit (or intend to commit) a crime separate from their action of being unlawfully present on the premises.

                    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                    by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 06:52:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  our doors are always locked (7+ / 0-)

    We keep all our doors locked 24/7, except when we're actually stepping through one of them. The doors with windows have double-cylinder deadbolts... and no, there isn't a key permanently left in the indoor cylinder.

    We live in a "soft target" neighborhood, but we're only a few miles from Meth City.

    "She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed." -1995 Michael Moore documentary Canadian Bacon

    by Tom Seaview on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:09:13 AM PDT

    •  a friend just recommended this book (8+ / 0-)

      Methland: The Death and Life of an American Small Town

      Using what he calls a "live-in reporting strategy," Reding's chronicle of a small-town crystal meth epidemic-about "the death of a way of life as much as... about the birth of a drug"-revolves around tiny Oelwein, Iowa, a 6,000-resident farming town nearly destroyed by the one-two punch of Big Agriculture modernization and skyrocketing meth production. Reding's wide cast of characters includes a family doctor, the man "in the best possible position from which to observe the meth phenomenon"; an addict who blew up his mother's house while cooking the stuff; and Lori Arnold (sister of actor Tom Arnold) who, as a teenager, built an extensive and wildly profitable crank empire in Ottumwa, Iowa (not once, but twice).

      I used to snicker at elderly clients who facetiously locked the doors b/h me.... now Im getting elderly & always keep even the back doors locked.  

      Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

      by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:33:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I''m still not in the habit of locking the house (7+ / 0-)

    unless no one is home. Never bother to lock up at night, haven't locked my car at home in 15 years.

    I rely on the dogs as an alarm and good ones they are.  Plus I have Guinea hens who watch one side, the yote's got my geese, the other alarm system.

    The roosters raise hell if disturbed at night and with 5 terriers + a couple others, they could wake the dead.

    Hell, sometimes, the door is open let alone locked.

    Never locked up when I left until a neighbor came home to find a migrant asleep in their house.....and now residential burglary is picking up in my area so the locks and safes actually get some use.

    However, I do have a locked outer gate and an inner ring fence and with the cacophony my critters create, I guarantee that no one gets in without being seen and challenged if needed.

    Plus the area is so quiet, any car can be heard as it clears the corner......

    Now in the city, it's a different story and unfortunately here for a while, home invasion type robberies were frequent.  Lately, it has slowed down again....

  •  Interesting point . . . (8+ / 0-)

    . . . in the home-invasion/crazy neighbor story from dKos, as it has played out over Nobody's several diaries (which I tend to see long after they have been posted): a number of times people have stated categorically that shooting someone in that situation will still lead - absolutely - to your arrest.

    The point made is that a defensive shooting is still a positive response to a charge of murder/manslaughter. And that's a fair point. But increasingly, I've seen the castle doctrine used in many cases where the person shooting isn't even charged. It's happened here in mid-MO several times in recent memory. Basically, the police check with the local prosecutor and decide that it doesn't even make sense to file charges, the situation is so cut & dried.

    Has anyone else seen this happening?

    Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

    by Shadan7 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:23:58 AM PDT

  •  Oh, and I have to say . . . (8+ / 0-)

    . . . the recording of the woman being attacked, KV - fuck, that's chilling.

    As many here know, my dad was a cop. Many of my friends are cops to this day. Every one of them I've ever known has said that the most they can do is respond to a situation after the fact, and that before they can arrive you have to take care of yourself.

    This woman did everything right - and still, she would have been dead had she not had the possibility of defending herself, because of the time it took for the police to get to her.

    Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

    by Shadan7 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:50:00 AM PDT

    •  here's another 911 call from the Arivaca (7+ / 0-)

      Home invasion I mentioned earlier, you hear Gina asking for help then as they come back in she returns fire.

      Sorry for the fox link but it's all I found quickly.

      I can't listen to them myself but I don't need to be convinced.....

      http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/...

    •  Yes, hence the warning. (7+ / 0-)

      That sent shivers down my spine.

      (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

      by KVoimakas on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:12:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Spending an eternity in 2 minutes (5+ / 0-)

      Even listening to it, when the 911 dispatcher reminded the caller that "it's only been two minutes" it seemed like she'd been on the phone for at least 5.

      Can't imagine what it felt like actually being there.

      It's also a reminder that for folks with security systems, many don't even send a signal to the monitoring station until 30 seconds to 45 seconds after the sensor is tripped.  

      And once tripped, the system may take over your phone line, making a 911 call on your land line impossible.  

      And if you use your cell phone, they take longer to figure out where you are calling from even if you give them the address.  

      It also points out that reinforcing the locks with a decent deadbolt in a solid wood door is not just something you need to do on your outside doors - especially if you're having the kind of trouble this woman was facing from the guy who eventually attacted her.

      Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

      by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:31:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, look at the time on the recording. (5+ / 0-)

        At the point where the 911 operator said it was only two minutes, it had actually been 4 full minutes from the time 911 picked up the phone.

        So, what was the 2 minutes? Did it take 2 minutes from the start of their conversation for the 911 operator to manage to send the destination to the nearest cop car? I dunno. That's why I mentioned there is that possible delay in getting the cops to the house for help.

        •  Good catch. Probably right on significance (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shadan7, buddabelly, oldpunk, theatre goon

          To get the basic facts, location and connect with the nearest available LE unit, could have burned 2 minutes, which in hindsight may seem long, but starting from scratch for 911 operator would not.

          That also reminds us to train family to get the basics out first on such a 9-11 call.

          Your Name.
          Address.
          Nature of your emergency:  Someone trying to break the door down to get into my home.
          His name is ___ ____. (if you know - otherwise I don't know who it is.)
          I believe he may want to hurt me or kill me because ___________. (If he's yelling threats tell them.)
          I don't know (or know) if he is armed (he owns a gun, he's using a hammer to break in etc.)
          If there's a restraining order - tell them.
          If he's violated it before, tell them.  
          I'm alone in the house or I'm here with __ children etc.  

          This not only helps them more quickly get things rolling on their end, but also helps establish what the conditions were if you are forced to use your gun.

          It's not what happened that matters.
          What matters is what you can prove.  

          Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

          by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:27:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Unfortunately, (8+ / 0-)

    even the audio of the 911 call isn't going to persuade a good portion of the DKos community.  Far too many of our fellow kossacks simply do not believe that people are responsible for nor can be trusted with their own protection.  How often to we hear the meme that people can't be trusted with firearms because they might snap at any moment and go on a shooting rampage?

    No, many kossacks believe that it is the states responsibility to provide personal protection to the people in the form of the police even though it has been proven time and time again that the police don't have the capabilities to provide such protection nor do they have the legal obligation to do so.  They believe that if there weren't so many guns in American that there wouldn't be so many criminals.

    There is a problem here that goes beyond politics and personal preference and is steeped in the ideology that the general populace needs to be tended to, needs to be fed and burped, have its nappy changed and protected from itself.  Have we made inroads with our series?  I think we have.  But I also see the vehemence in many of the responses our diaries receive.  I see how our posters and commentors are disregarded as mouth pieces for the NRA, ring-wing gun nuts and loons.  Too many of our fellow kossacks are quick and willing to ignore the basic human right to defend oneself and would be more than happy to eliminate the portion of our Constitution that enables us to do so.  

    Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

    by oldpunk on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:00:01 AM PDT

    •  Well... (8+ / 0-)

      How often to we hear the meme that people can't be trusted with firearms because they might snap at any moment and go on a shooting rampage?

      I see that sort of thing here a lot less often than in the past.

      Now, it could be because we're changing minds.  It could also be because we're here and will fight back against the trolls and the mentality that will say that sort of thing, and might be thinning them out a bit.

      Either way, good for us!

      :-)

    •  It Goes Beyond Nanny State Dependency (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buddabelly, oldpunk, theatre goon

      There is a problem here that goes beyond politics and personal preference and is steeped in the ideology that the general populace needs to be tended to, needs to be fed and burped, have its nappy changed and protected from itself.  

      The thing is, that ideology is an essential fact of our entire culture, not just our government, and as such is very difficult to change - especially when it pertains to us and not to "others".

      Our personal resilience and our personal ability to fill our own needs has been buried beneath a mountain of interdependencies and "outsourcing" of our survival. And while we have received much in exhange for going in that direction, that tower of relative luxury is not as stable or secure as it is high.  And frankly, most of us cannot imagine a life or a world outside of that high tower.

      The same ideology concerning our private infrastructure that assumes the lights will always come on, the house will always be heated and the grocery shelves will always be full also extends to the assumption that our public infrastructure will meet our needs - or that we (as opposed to others) will never have to depend on it for our needs.  

      We assume that we will not be attacked.  We assume that if that turns out to be incorrect that the police will "do their job" and prevent us from coming to harm.  Most are unwilling to imagine that their world is one in which those assumptions may no longer be true or maybe never was true.

      We live in a highly technological society increasingly dependent on highly complex systems that are becoming both more vulnerable and less predictable.  We are also creating a society whose disparity in wealth and income is growing to levels that in other countries would be widely considered a breeding ground for both crime and civil unrest.

      And just as we have let that private infrastructure suffer from deferred maintenance and replacement (and watched our lights go out, levies fail, bridges fall and neighborhoods explode and burn because of it), we are also letting our public infrastructure weaken under the same short-sighted policies of cost cutting and profit-taking.  

      Right now, I'm guessing we would struggle to find a local government not faced with downsizing of their police and fire fighters because of both the direct impact of the recession and cuts in state and federal aid.

      And to acknoweledge that we live in that world, instead of the comfy, safe and secure (and democratic) world we imagine belongs to us, that we believe defines us, and that we assume is something akin to a perpetual motion machine is to admit something about both us and our country that is in fundamental conflict with who we like to think we are as a people and as a country.  

      And frankly, I don't know how we draw back that curtain.
       

      Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

      by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:19:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Advocating violence ? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oldpunk, KVoimakas, theatre goon

    I knew I shouldnt have... but I 'tipped' an apparently  ban-able comment in Nobodys 1st Diary,
    It started with... 'if it had happened to my sister...
    I was warned that Id be banned on 2nd strike.
      Made me think how Different we are from the "opposition" party.   If advocating violence is discouraged here, it seams almost Mandatory in repug blogs.

    Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

    by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:01:16 AM PDT

    •  you aren't any different than them as long as you (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      oldpunk, theatre goon

      keep using stupid words like "repug" to describe the people that you disagree with.  This goes for the people who insist on using "teabagger" as well.

      I wish the partisans of the Democratic Party would follow the advice of some of your more noble politicians.  Biden relayed a story about Senator Mansfield during his farewell address to the Senate.  This quote sticks out in my mind:

      He said, "Joe, never question another man's motive. Question his judgment but never his motive."

      There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

      by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:12:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why? (5+ / 0-)

        Working from self interest versus a sense of selflessness...motivation matters.

        (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:19:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not Nesc imo, just done giving respect when (6+ / 0-)

          none is received.

          We turn the other cheek, They spit on it.

          I'm done with polite in this situation and imo, people esp independents are much more likely to vote for a fighter than someone who always avoids the confrontation.

          Though I can see both sides and tend to use the same level of discourse I'm receiving.  If they're polite I am also....

        •  you regard it as selfishness because it's easier (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oldpunk

          to assume that than it is to consider the issue from their point of view.  Much of what you would probably regard as selfish I would regard as people wanting control over their own destiny.

          To pick one issue, I don't happen to think it's selfish to want the ability to decide for myself whether or not I need health insurance.  Perhaps I have a better use for those funds.  Perhaps I just can't afford it.  Perhaps I have a moral or religious objection to the way the insurance industry does business and do not wish to support them.  Either way, who are you to decide for me?

          Please don't respond with "the ER has to treat you anyway and that costs ME money".  For starters, I never asked for that charity.  Even if I did, so what?  Everyday actions impose costs on society.  Every single time someone defaults on a loan it raises the cost for the rest of us.  I don't see anybody in the mainstream suggesting a repeal of the bankruptcy code and return to debtor's prisons though.

          Put yourself in the shoes of the people you disagree with.  It's harder than dismissing them but you might just learn a thing or two.

          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

          by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:52:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't care for mandates either. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Crookshanks

            I think it would have been more honest and agreeable to the general public to have advocated for a single payer system.  With that said I am not a huge fan of that idea either.  The bottom line is that something must be done, what that is I don't know.  I think we can do better than emulating policies and programs that appear to be failing in the UK, Canada and Europe.  I think we can do something different, something better that will suit the needs of our populace.

            Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

            by oldpunk on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:06:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  we should have started by breaking the absurd (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OMwordTHRUdaFOG, oldpunk

              link between employment and insurance but the Democrats were not willing to touch that issue with a ten foot pole.  This linkage screws us in so many ways, both related to health care and not.  Imagine how much more productive our economy would be if people didn't need to worry about their health insurance before switching jobs?  Imagine your freedom of action to choose a policy that meets your needs rather than being compelled to buy the one that HR thinks meets your needs.

              We should have considered weaning people away from the notion that health insurance should pay for routine expenses.  Insurance is supposed to be protection against catastrophic risk, not routine and predictable expenses.

              There was a good article in The Atlantic about this, entitled How American Health Care Killed My Father.  This article should have been required reading during the HCR debate, IMHO.

              As far as I'm concerned both parties did us a disservice during the HCR battle.  The Republicans gave their bully pulpit over to idiots that were talking about non-existent death panels rather than focusing on the massively unpopular individual mandate and the various other non health care bits (the 1099 requirement comes to mind) stuffed into the legislation for the sole purpose of rigging the CBO score.  The Democrats were so desperate for a victory on this issue that they passed a bill that THEIR OWN MEMBERS admitted was hugely flawed.

              There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

              by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:16:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I keep hearing... (4+ / 0-)

              ...how the health system in the UK is breaking down -- but my mother-in-law is pretty seriously involved with them right now, and doesn't have any problems whatsoever with the system.

              Granted, that's anecdotal and therefore not worth a whole lot, but so are a lot of the claims that nationalized health is falling apart some place or another.

              Is such a system right for the US?  Maybe not -- but I've never seen any reason we should take the good parts of such systems and try to avoid the bad parts.

              Not taking a shot at you, by any means, just the meme that "the National Health is falling apart!"  Yeah, kinda like Social Security here is going to fail in three years.  Not so much...

              •  I should have been clearer. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                buddabelly, Crookshanks, theatre goon

                I refer to the apparent failure in the context of the UK, Canada's and Australia's recent interest in more privatization of health care services to help off set the growing burden their national health care systems are faced with.  With regards to Europe they are slowly bankrupting themselves with the cost of health care for an aging population and fewer people entering the work force to pay for it.  I would consider the level/quality of care received in these countries exemplary, so what I see as an apparent or potential failure of their systems is not related to quality of care but rather their ability to adequately deliver that care to their populations.

                Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

                by oldpunk on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:59:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We beat them in a few key areas.... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  oldpunk, theatre goon

                  ... cancer survival rates come to mind.  The US is no worse off than most European states and beats them handily for a couple of diseases (Prostate and Breast cancer) where pre-screening makes all the difference.

                  would consider the level/quality of care received in these countries exemplary

                  The two biggest problems with the American health care system are the lack of availability for the less well-off and the bureaucracy (both Governmental and private) that gets in the way of the Doctor-Patient relationship.  The actual product itself is fine and is in fact superior to what's available in most other countries.

                  There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                  by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:12:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Except for the fact that we pay twice as much (4+ / 0-)

                    and yet 20 years after all of the other western developed countries ensured health care for all their people, under our status quo system we could not come up with a system that both covered everyone and provided care even equal to the care provided elsewhere.

                    On specific diseases, we may be ahead and on others we lag behind, but on some very basic meansures of health such as length of life and infant mortality we are embarassingly behind - even while our costs per capita are twice what the next highest country's costs are.

                    What got passed is not perfect, but many of the imperfections were included as compromises to those that opposed the changes and were defending the status quo.

                    The continued exemption of health insurance companies from anti-trust laws comes to mind (only they and major league baseball have that exemption.)  More than 95% of the health care insurance markets in the US would fail tests for being so highly concentrated that they have negative impacts on both price and quality.  And 'unfettering' the giant insurance companies to gobble up more of their competitors and allowing them to sell sub-prime policies against the wishes of states who set minimum standards would do little to improve health while doing much to improve profits of those giants.

                    I don't think the individual mandate was one of my favorite ingredients of this particular legislative sausage, but the loss of individual liberty that is brought on by government mandate to buy health insurance is no worse than the loss of individual life brought on by continuing to allow insurance companies to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, apply life-time caps, terminate your policy when you become ill, or limit you to only internal routes to appeal their decisions.  All of these are changed or prohibited by the new law.  

                    Opponents can say the would have passed these without the rest, but if so, why haven't they done it till now?  

                    And based on that lack of progress for two decades, what gives us the idea that if this is repealed, that they will bring even the supposedly non-objectionable portions back?

                    Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

                    by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 02:43:04 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  yes, actually it is.... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Into The Woods, oldpunk

                      but the loss of individual liberty that is brought on by government mandate to buy health insurance is no worse than the loss of individual life brought on by continuing to allow insurance companies to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, apply life-time caps, terminate your policy when you become ill, or limit you to only internal routes to appeal their decisions.

                      As an aside, I hope you see the irony in complaining about the business practices of the insurance industry while simultaneously defending a law that compels every living adult American to do business with them.

                      There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                      by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 05:02:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I do see the irony of that, but also I see (0+ / 0-)

                        that without mandatory participation, the pool of insured (especially younger, healthier insured) would further increase the costs to everyone else of private insurance and continue to drain both government and health care institutions' budgets providing care to people who are uninsured.

                        I drive a car and there's the liberty to do so without auto insurance to protect others was a sacrifice I have no problem with.

                        It alievated much, but not all, of the unisured motorist issue.

                        And for a sizeable group of Americans this is not a hypothetical issue.  

                        It's hard to enjoy liberty if you're dead.

                        Over 40,000 a year lose that ultimate liberty every year because they can't afford insurance.

                        And before the law went into effect earlier this week, around 20,000 hit life-time caps every year.

                        If this is all we can get passed to start down the road to eventually fix that problem, I say take the step instead of waiting another decade for a bigger better step that may never come along.

                        Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

                        by Into The Woods on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:28:07 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  exactly, remember how Palin admitted to sneaking (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                OMwordTHRUdaFOG, theatre goon

                across the Canadian border for health care?

                Many countries systems work just fine and it shows in their outcomes.

                Lower infant mortality and longer life expectancy.....

                •  except for the fact that none of them have been (0+ / 0-)

                  particularly successful at controlling costs either.  I'm not convinced that ANY system (be it private insurance, single payer, a public option, etc.) that shields consumers from the true cost of care can be successful at controlling costs.

                  Many countries systems work just fine and it shows in their outcomes.

                  Regarding life expectancy, correlation does not prove causation.  It's just as likely that a lower life expectancy can be blamed on our love of fatty foods and lack of exercise as it is that it can be blamed on our health care system.

                  There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                  by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:00:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I regard it as selfishness because of the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buddabelly, theatre goon

            many conversations I've had with conservatives in my area who seem to be more the racist tea bagger type than anything else. No, I'm not kidding.

            When the people fit the stereotype, is it still a stereotype?

            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

            by KVoimakas on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:31:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You're right... (5+ / 0-)

        ...we should be better than they are.

        That said, though, surely you don't think that if we start being nice to them, they'll start being nice to us?  Hasn't happened yet.

        And the "teabagger" term they brought on themselves, with their "tea bag" parties and so on.  Kinda like referring to Bush as "Dubya" doesn't particularly bother me, because that was a common term used by his own people while he was Governor and afterwards.  It was generally considered a friendly nickname, not an insulting, dismissing term.

        •  ..we should be better than they are. (4+ / 0-)

          Should, is a word you ought not use.

          We ARE better than the republican party & platform.

          Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

          by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:55:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  who is this "they" you are speaking of? (0+ / 0-)

          When you use the term "repug" you are insulting every single registered Republican.  That's roughly 30-40% of the country.  Do you really think that every single one of those people is a Sarah Palin or Tom Delay?

          Ditto for "teabagging".  You realize that the Tea Party currently polls higher than both the GOP and Democrats for favorably among the American people, right?  If it was a standalone political party it would be at least as popular as the Independence parties that Ross Perot ran under.

          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

          by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:00:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When I use such terms... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound, buddabelly

            ...which is rarely, I am generally referring to those who choose to use similar terms against members of the Democratic party.

            When rank-and-file Republicans don't call out their self-appointed spokespeople for using insulting terms against their opponents, they are being pretty hypocritical for getting upset if someone returns the favor, don't you think?  Limbaugh has arguably become the defacto leader for the Republican party -- I can think of no one who is more insulting than he is.

            If Republicans want the discourse raised, then a large part of that onus is upon them.

            And, as stated earlier, "teabagger" is a term people within the "movement" often use for themselves, so I see no problem with using it to refer to them as well.

            •  no he hasn't..... (0+ / 0-)

              ... that's an absurd thing to say.  I know lots of Republicans that can't stand Limbaugh.  Jesus, I've grown more sympathetic to right-wing points of view as I've aged and I can't even stand to listen to that idiot rant and rave.

              I've never seen the word "teabagger" used by anyone in that movement and even if they have I still would not use it.  A good number of African-Americans refer to each other with a rather offensive six letter word.  If I started using it could I use that as my defense against the inevitable charges of racism that would follow?

              There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

              by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:23:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not so absurd... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                buddabelly, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

                ...if you consider how many Republican officials or candidates have said something dismissive about Limbaugh and then, often within the day, go scraping and bowing and explaining how they were taken out of context, what they really meant was...

                Like it or not, Limbaugh has a disturbing amount of influence within the Republican party -- which is why I used the qualifier "arguably."

                Any Republican who doesn't suck up to Limbaugh is done for.

                •  Limbaugh has influence with the GOP but so do (0+ / 0-)

                  certain groups with the Democrats (MoveOn comes to mind) that are not terribly popular with the rest of the country.  Those groups are not the "de-facto leaders" of the Democratic Party anymore than Limbaugh is the de-facto leader of the GOP.

                  In any case, we are wandering away from my original point, which was disappointment in the manner with which certain political partisans treat the opposition.  I've made this same point to my friends on the right and am now making it to my friends on the left.

                  I'm actually more disappointed with you guys than I am with the Republicans.  The leader of your party is the one that ran on a platform of a "new kind" of politics.  I guess I was foolish enough to believe that was possible.

                  There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                  by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:40:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'd agree a lot stronger with you... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    buddabelly, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

                    ...if we were talking about elected officials using such terms.  We, the Great Unwashed Masses, are generally not held to as high a standard.

                    Hell, if I were to run for office, I wouldn't even vote for me -- but I'm not.  My words aren't -- and shouldn't -- be held to the same standards as those I elect to speak for me.

                    And I have to respectfully disagree, on no uncertain terms, that MoveOn has a fraction of the influence on the Democratic Party that Limbaugh has on the GOP.

                    But we are getting way, way off-topic at this point, so probably best to let it drop.

                    Except for one more dig -- aimed at both parties -- when was the last time anyone ran for President and not used some variation on the theme of "a new kind of politics?"  Sadly, I think that's a requirement in contemporary history...

                    •  but elected officals do use such terms.... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      OMwordTHRUdaFOG

                      ... how many old timers have retired (or lost re-election) recently and bemoaned the state of affairs on Capitol Hill?  The people up there don't even SOCIALIZE with each other anymore, much less make an effort to understand where the other guy is coming from.

                      I'll grant you the point on the "unwashed masses" not being held to the same standard but I would point out that our leaders are influenced by our actions even if they are more tempered in their behavior than we are.  Change doesn't come from the top in a Democratic Republic, it comes from the bottom.

                      There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                      by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:53:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  and that started in 94 the atmosphere changed (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        OMwordTHRUdaFOG

                        for the worse and they have never looked back.

                        You can not honestly state that both parties engage to the same level in the low road. No way no how.

                        Remember the Clinton years? Both were called everything from drug dealers to murderers.

                        Yet when we respond in kind, we are the ones who should raise the discourse? When again we try to compromise or even just work together and the republics just flat refuse?

                        Remember all the time wasted on "Bi-Partisanship"

                        •  interesting that you mention 1994 and not 1987... (0+ / 0-)

                          ... when the Democrats savaged Robert Bork.  Many Republicans attribute that action to the current atmosphere.

                          You have your perspective and they have theirs.  Frankly I think there's enough blame to go around on both sides.

                          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                          by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:22:40 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  insulting every single registered Republican (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buddabelly, theatre goon

            in person, I try & mock only their 'sin', the fruits of their party's failures, rather than the sinner virtue of having a conservative perspective.

            Mandatory health ins might one day be seen as similar to the gas tax funding transportation infrastructure.
            Personally, most of my healthcare dollar goes to alt Drs that aren't likely to be reimbursed under any insurance plan, so yea, i relate to the independent decisions thing.

            Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

            by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:21:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I personally usually use republic as they feel (5+ / 0-)

        free to call us the democRat party.  If they can drop 2 letters so can I but I also don't mind worse as I am a Partisan and proud of it.

        I can't ever remember voting for a republic for anything as I grew up under Reagan and saw up close and personal the damage republics in power do to the poor.

        Now maybe in the 50's to early 60's or earlier, the Republicans had some elected officials who were head and shoulders above the Democrats on the basic social welfare/social justice things that inform and guide my vote and support.

        Since Nixon and esp raygun, this is no longer true.

        When a party is inherently antithetical to every thing I believe in and stand for, and actively works to hurt the lowest amongst us while padding the wallets of their rich cronies, I find it hard and essentially useless to attempt to bridge the gap.

        When they pull back from the cliff I'll consider it but until then republics and those who put them in office get nothing from me.

        Now I do know a couple decent Republican Voters, not many but a couple and we argue it out regularly.  I like them and they like me but I have no problem calling them baggers to their face and they call me a commie pinko faggot, then we laugh and go shooting...... ......

      •  I'd like to credit Molly Ivins 4my attemped Humor (5+ / 0-)

        She lived a few blocks away & for many years was about the only very public person harshly criticizing the failed policy's of the brutally mean spirited opposition.

        See my other comment about red state etc. constant tenor of violence... compared to a little sarcasm, not the same as hatemail-apalooza

        Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

        by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 11:41:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  some of your more noble politicians (0+ / 0-)

        Unfortunatly the Sara Palin & Mayberry Machiavelli faction of the grand-old-party has eclipsed the Bob Dole & John McCain as they hushed those booing the democratic victor & always insisted on calling democratic party members, the opposition, not my enemy.

        Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

        by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:05:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So your argument boils down to "they started it"? (0+ / 0-)

          Not very convincing I've got to say....

          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

          by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:05:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "they started it" (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound, buddabelly, theatre goon

            seams to be, in my lifetime anyway, its the only way they win elections, by demonizing a bogyman & blaming democrats for being its enabler, all the way laughing to the bank.
            Im just, like many others, tired of the looserman surrender monkey mentality.

            More Paul Wellstone, less Mitt Romney

            Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

            by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:29:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  todays (front page) example- (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              theatre goon

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Obama is just like Castro. That seems to be the message behind an advertisement from the Marco Rubio campaign. "As the son of exiles, I understand what it means to lose a country."

              So he understands what happens when communist revolutionaries take over a nation through an armed revolt and turn dissenters into political prisoners.

              Seams par for the course, How often do you see Democrats engaging in this kind of mean spiritedness?

              Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

              by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:34:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Look at it this way... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buddabelly, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

            Say we're having a friendly, verbal disagreement.

            If I suddenly throw a punch at you, are you going to keep relying only on words, or physically try to defend yourself?

            Would it be right to dismiss any self-defense on your part "because the other guy started it?"

            It's not an exact analogy, of course, but just used for illustrative purposes.  Sometimes it does come down to "because they started it."

            That said, I'm still not fond of terms such as "repug" personally, but I'm not going to hold it against others if they want to use them.  

            •  turning the other cheek against verbal (0+ / 0-)

              provocations is much easier and more desirable than turning the other cheek against physical provocations.

              BTW, I don't "hold it against" any of you, I'm just expressing my disappointment with the tone.  I regard most of the people that I've conversed with in these diaries as kindred spirits, even if I disagree with many of your non-RKBA positions.

              From where I sit it seems that many of you are completely disconnected from the rest of the electorate.  Most people aren't partisans for either party.  They may lean in one direction or the other but they have a much more open mind than most of our elected officials and nearly all partisans.

              There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

              by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 12:48:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not in my locality. (4+ / 0-)

                I'm actually a lot less partisan than most people I know, locally.

                Most people here are the same party their parents were and their parents before them -- would no more consider changing that party or voting for the other party than they'd consider cutting off a toe or two.

                I have, once, voted for a Republican (for sheriff).  That makes me a dangerously Independently-minded person to a lot of people.

                •  I guess I'm lucker then, because most of the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  theatre goon

                  voters around these parts split their tickets and my area is pretty damn close to a 50/50 split (actually 35/35/30 if you count the non-affiliated) between the parties.

                  I've been a poll worker since 2004 and could always peg the party line voters with our old lever machines.  They'd close the curtain and you'd hear a machine gun like "click, click, click, click" as they pulled down all the levers for one row without pausing to read the candidate name or office.

                  Such voters were the definite minority in my district and presumably remain so today.

                  There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                  by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:00:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  In my area... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    buddabelly, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

                    ...rural Texas, very few people would complain if there only two choices on the ballot: D and R.  

                    Most folks vote straight-ticket without a thought.

                    I exaggerate -- but only a little.

                    •  that's unfortunate.... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      theatre goon

                      ... but such people are the minority if you look at the nation as a whole.  If they were the majority then politicians wouldn't spend so much time pandering to the independent vote.  They'd just turn out the base and call it a day.

                      There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                      by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:05:24 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Swing voters are not majority (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        buddabelly

                        And turning out the base is exactly what serves as the foundation for both parties' GOTV.

                        The reason so much attention and money is directed towards the swing segment is that it is small and swings.  

                        And unless a guy or gal named "Generic" is running somewhere I haven't noticed, most of the anti-this or anti-that analysis I've seen on the major media is woefully misdirected.

                        They say x% oppose the health care bill, but can't be bothered to say how many wanted nothing, how many wanted something different and how many wanted much more.

                        They say x% don't trust the government now under Obama but can't be bothered to say that x% is actually higher than it was at the end of Bush's administration.

                        On an annual and continuous basis for at least the last decade a national polling company has found that well over 80% of Americans believe big business has too much influence on our federal government.

                        And yet efforts to require those big companies to disclose when they are spending money to influece federal elections cannot pass the US Senate because lockstep opposition to that very basic, free-marketplace of ideas-friendly concept by the Republican Party and a couple of scaredy cat DINOs stands in the way of what even the current corporate-friendly US Supreme Court has said is perfectly constitutional.

                        The GOP has successfully converted anger and frustration that the federal government (primarily but not exclusively through implementing Republican policies of deregulation and unfettered market philosophy) allowed the financial sector to both enrich itself and crash the entire economy.  

                        They have taken that anger and the anger that came from the necessity of bailing out that same greedy financial sector to prevent even greater economic and societal calamity and directed it towards symbolic legislation like the individual mandate for health insuance because that is something folks can actually understand.  

                        It is irresponsible and hypocritical.  But that's politics.  

                        As Clinton said yesterday, if this election is about anger and apathy and amnesia, the Dems are in trouble.

                        If this election is about who's done what to cause problems, solve problems and build towards the future for the entire American society (not just the few), then the Dems will do just fine.

                        I'm betting that Tea Party rage and simplistic generalities may energize the base and may even bring over some of the swing voters that went Dem in 2006, but the new voters who came out in 2008, especially the younger voters, will stay with the Dems if they can be convinced that citizenship is not a one-shot deal and requires regular and sustained attention.  

                        Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

                        by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 03:10:01 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  no, they aren't the majority, but they do swing (0+ / 0-)

                          elections.  That's why they are called swing voters.

                          If you have a room with 4 Democrats, 4 Republicans and 1 independent, who holds the balance of power?

                          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                          by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 06:55:02 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Big business has far too much influence (5+ / 0-)

                          on our federal government.

                          On an annual and continuous basis for at least the last decade a national polling company has found that well over 80% of Americans believe big business has too much influence on our federal government.

                          But is this due to the money they spend on political campaigns or because our government has become so big that there is too much room at the federal trough?  With a leaner more efficient government there wouldn't be as many places for the leeches to attach.

                          Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

                          by oldpunk on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:04:40 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Both. That's why "free market" is such a (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly, oldpunk

                            false flag argument when used by people like health insurance companies and fortune 500 global companies.

                            But "big government" is not just government contracts (like say no-bid Iraq reconstruction contracts) it is also the web of tax and trade policies that these same big company folk manipulate through their excessive influence to help them and screw everyone else.

                            If leaner means we enforce regulatory controls on these folks less, with less protection of the market itself, less protection and targeting of economic growth for the type of businesses that can't afford to spend a $1 million (to say nothing of $1 million a day) on lobbying the federal government, less protection of consumers and workers, and more shifting of real but long term costs away from these folks (like long term  Gulf cleanup costs to save short term risk prevention and mitigation costs) then leaner is not the same as 'more efficient'.  

                            To the extent government is captured by big industry, big government is a problem.  But if in response to "big government" we cut those parts of government that help not them but the ordiary folk, what good comes of that?

                            Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

                            by Into The Woods on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:57:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For me big government (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Into The Woods, Crookshanks

                            is directly related to the amount of money it spends.  To lessen the impact corporations have on our government it is necessary to limit the amount of federal funds they have access to.  No more corporate welfare.  No tax breaks or incentives.  I wouldn't mind seeing the corporate tax bracket a bit lower to help draw more business to the U.S. but we need to let the corporations assume all of the risk of their business endeavors instead of passing it on to the tax payer.  If they fail, oh well.  If they succeed then they reap the benefits without the help of or owing any political group for their success.  

                            Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

                            by oldpunk on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 08:47:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I wouldn't mind seeing corporate taxes income (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Into The Woods, oldpunk

                            eliminated altogether.

                            And before I get yelled at, consider these points:

                            1. Corporations can return their profits to shareholders in the form of dividends, which are already taxed.
                            1. Corporations can return their profits to employees in the form of paychecks, which are already taxed.

                            I see no reason why corporate income needs to be taxed twice, both when earned and when paid out to shareholders and/or employees.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 08:55:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  only if dividends and capital gains are taxed (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Into The Woods, oldpunk, Crookshanks

                            at regular income rates.....

                            And throw in removing the cap on payroll and SS/FICA taxes for good measure.

                            Once a fair level of progressive taxation is reached we could probably do without corporate income taxes....by fair I'm talking somewhere in the Clinton era range on all income.....With a raised floor to maybe 200% of poverty level.

                          •  I don't have a problem with that concept.... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Into The Woods, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            I don't understand the logic behind a separate cap gains tax rate.  It penalizes people with lower income who invest in the market by taxing them at a higher rate than they would be otherwise.

                            Taxing corporations is just a backdoor way to tax individuals.  Every penny you take from my employer is one less that's available for salary, benefits and dividends.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:21:43 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Lower Income Investors Already Have Oridinary (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            income tax rates applied, effectively, because almost all of their investment is in 401K-type investments which will be taxed as ordinary income as it is drawn out.

                            You have to get up pretty high in the income scale before taxable dividends and taxable capital gains become more than 5% of your income.  

                            And while the studies I've seen support some of what you are saying, they also show that a sizeable chunk of the profits that would be added from repealing corporate income tax would go not to salary or dividends, but to the same higher income folk who hold the vast majority of stock and take the vast majority of those dividends - even including the 401K-type ownership.

                            Discouraged? Disillusioned? Think about the roots of those words. Then take courage and resolve to avoid illusion.

                            by Into The Woods on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 11:18:45 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  then tax those individuals when the money is (0+ / 0-)

                            transferred to them.  Any dividends outside of a 401(k) or IRA are taxable.  401(k)s and IRAs have contribution limits to keep people from using them to shelter massive amounts of income from taxes.  What's what problem here?

                            they also show that a sizeable chunk of the profits that would be added from repealing corporate income tax would go not to salary or dividends, but to the same higher income folk who hold the vast majority of stock and take the vast majority of those dividends - even including the 401K-type ownership.

                            BTW, speak for yourself regarding how lower income people invest their money.  I make a whopping $25,000/yr and put a sizable amount of money into the markets as they were tanking.  I got a ROI of 60-70% on the money that I put into the market, which was then taxed at a HIGHER effective rate than my regular income by both the Feds and New York State.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Sat Sep 25, 2010 at 07:50:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  And, as an aside... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                buddabelly, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

                ...pointing out partisanship at a very specifically and admittedly partisan website...?

                It's like complaining about the appalling lack of choice of wines at "Billy Bob's Honkytonk."

                :-)

              •  'Most people aren't partisans' (3+ / 0-)

                DailyKos is know for being pretty partisan. Funny how 'partisan' is used as an insult for many R's.

                That said our RKBA group could very well get more attention from moderates & independents than the rest of the sight in general.

                Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

                by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 01:55:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Then you wish the Democrats to lose. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buddabelly, KVoimakas, theatre goon

        Because my memory tells me that we've been doing exactly that since 1968, and that the Republicans, who don't play nice, have been controlling the country for just about that long, even when they didn't have all of the levers in their hands.

        Losing clean is still losing, and in this game, (politics,) losing gets people killed.

        politics has always been, will always be, and must be played by poker rules:

        Either you are there to cut the other blokes heart out and eat it--or you’re a sucker. If you don’t like this choice--don’t gamble.

        --Lazarus Long

        Wishing it were different won't change it, and in fact has no power to make it be different. You fight to win, or you don't win.

        Politics is war by other means...

        --Shannon

        "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
        "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

        by Leftie Gunner on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 05:33:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Are you serious? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Into The Woods, Mandell

      Just what the heck do people think it means when you say you are your sister's keeper?

      Would I be banned for admitting if someone made a trauma victim of either of my kid sisters I would settle it? Even though they are in their 30's, married with children, they'll always be my kid sisters, heh. But I've stood up for them when they couldn't do it themselves before.

      Jeez, how the heck did such a fear of assertiveness get so acceptable? In the 60's, 50 THOUSAND folks who wanted an end to violence still had the backbone to confront the pentagon in person, face to face. But now, if you want no part of violence you have to take whatever violence someone else hands you and run away, hoping that wherever you stop running there won't be someone else ready to hand you a knuckle sandwich just for showing up.

      It's too bad tipping is over for that comment. Dems need spine. There are diaries galore pissing and moaning about Potus O and the Senators/Congress not standing up against the republican shenanigans, but then someone threatens you with banning for having a spine and tipping someone who dearly values their family.

      •  a serious question (0+ / 0-)

        I guess only MB or the FAQ section could fully answer.
        iirc the commenter stated he would set up an ambush situation if his sister experienced a neighbors threats/stalking. Clearly illegal.  I believe 'we' are 'allowed' to support violence if it complies w/ clearly lawful intent....self defense- ie- Catholic Church's- just war doctrine & support for our warS on drugs, Iraq & Afghanistan...I hope its OK to ask these questions...I'd hate to get kicked out...

        Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

        by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 07:55:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  no trolls in this story.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shadan7

    ... a full 24 hours after it was posted.  That has to be a record.

    I'm still arguing with one of them in an old diary.  He isn't even that original.  Apparently I keep moving the "goal posts" when I ask him to explain what "reasonable regulations" means.

    Think I'll get him to provide those "numerous studies" he mentioned a week ago?

    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

    by Crookshanks on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 10:31:05 AM PDT

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