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In todays Haaretz (a liberal Israeli paper) columnist Carlo Strenger comes up with a brilliant sarcastic analysis of what seems to be happening with regards to the Peace Talks and the overall Government of Israel.

In a funny and ironic piece titled: Political learnings for make benefit of understanding glorious nation of Israel Strenger manages to show just how dysfunctional right now the Right wing is making the Israeli Polity. Now, anyone who knows anything about Israel knows that there is a certain amount of dysfunction already there - yet with the coalition voted in during the 2009 elections the mechanisms of Government have clearly mis-fired and the time of the "Government by Chaos" is at hand

So now both sides in the Peace negotiations have seemingly similar qualities of "Government by Chaos". Yesterday, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman of the Yisrael Beitanu Party former Nightclub Bouncer and now Foreign Minister of Israel went before the UN and presented a plan that while having been discussed in private meetings, had never been put forth and had no official sanction. His trip to the "far side" (a place where random ministers go off without official sanction and address the U.N.) was captured in this article: Aluf Benn / Lieberman is making a liar out of Netanyahu. Amongst other things Lieberman proposed population swaps in a Two-State solution that would create a chaotic mass of enclaves based on ethnicity (a solution no one who is not certifiably insane supports).

Predictably, the Americans who are orchestrating these talks reacted negatively. It seems to have been made clear through back channels that these kinds of shenanigans were not viewed favorably (to say the least). Further, the Americans have already been disappointed in the lapse of the "settlement freeze" (construction in and of new settlements) that expired on Sept. 26th and have put the American sponsored Peace talks in jeopardy.

To save the talks, off to the Middle East goes George Mitchell. Here is where the double speak of the "Govenment of Chaos" is on full display: Netanyahu: If we don't try, we won't achieve peace: All one can say is "Huh? What do you mean if we don't try Mr. Prime Minister??? Holy Moly - it is your government that did not extend the Settlement Freeze when you knew that was going to cause an end to the talks. I mean come on"... At least that is what I said when I read this. According to the article the Americans made a very generous offer to keep things going:

...Mitchell said that U.S. President Barack Obama and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton asked him to convey a message to Israelis, Palestinians and their leaders that the U.S. remains committed to achieving regional Middle East peace, between all peoples of the area.

Mitchell said that he knows that the road to peace will have many potholes but that the U.S. is more determined than ever to achieving the common goal of peace and security in the Middle East.

Clinton spoke with Netanyahu twice on Tuesday about the American proposal. Under the proposal, the U.S. would give Israel guarantees on the issues of security arrangements, refugees and recognition of Israel a Jewish state. In exchange, Israel would extend the settlement freeze for several months.

According to one Israeli source familiar with the contents of the conversation, Netanyahu was not enthusiastic about the proposal and did not respond positively.

A European diplomat said that Netanyahu told the Americans that he could not agree to extending the settlement freeze in the main settlement blocs and 2,000 residential units that have already received approval.

A freeze that applied only to settlement construction outside the main blocs, however, would be unacceptable to Abbas, who has demanded the extension of the full settlement freeze as a condition to continue peace talks.

In effect, Mr. Netanyahu was called on this promise by the Americans who went out of their way to make things happen... and instead of working with them, Mr. Netanyahu basically said "tough".

Now, there are some in Israel calling for a change in the coalition that currently is in power. Israel's Labor Party supposedly stands for Peace and could leave the coalition causing problems for PM Netanyahu - however, they hold the Defense Ministry and a few other ministries and in a seeming move to do anything to hold power, won't do the principled thing and leave. Opposition party (and actual largest holder of seats in Knesset) Kadima has told the Prime Minister they would back him up in government if and only if he went against the craziness of his Foreign Minister, and actually took good faith steps to get back to the negotiating table.

The Prime Minister has the backing of his opposition as well as #1 Ally the United States, yet he has decided that this is not enough.

Further, E.U. Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton is going to Israel in a "surprise visit":

The European Union's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton will make an unannounced visit to Israel and the Palestinian Authority on Thursday, in what seems like another last ditch attempt to put the recently stalled direct Mideast peace talks back on track.

The EU's High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy will be arriving in Israel directly following a consultation with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Washington scheduled for later Wednesday, and will be meeting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu this Friday.

http://www.haaretz.com/...

So where do we go from here? I only have my opinion as an American and supporter of our alliance with Israel. It seems to me that PM Netanyahu has decided that our regional concerns (because this effects our relationships and ability to counter Iran's hegemonistic dreams), as well as the concerns of a majority of his own population that supports peace and a Two-State solution take a second place to the ambitions of the Right Wing in Israel and their Settler "base". So what do we do? Since we are the prime benefactor for Israel I don't think it is unreasonable for us to now flex some muscle to try to coerce the Israelis out of their intransigence and back to the negotiating table. How do we flex our muscle? At home we elect those candidates that support a Two State peaceful solution to the issue. In our foreign policy a possible solution is that we start with cuts in aid to the tune of for every dollar spent on settlements that is one less dollar in U.S. aid. We say we oppose the settlements - Ok.. let's live up to that.

Personally, I want Israel around for a long, long time. I support the existence of the State and their strong alliance with America. What I do not support is their continued objections to a real and lasting attempt at Peace. They are free to do what they want but it doesn't have to be with my help if I disagree with their actions.

And I am not the only frustrated one: Thanks for reading. This from the great Israeli columnist Bradley Burston sums up frustration better than I ever could

I realize this diary won't affect much of anything but it feels good to say something and hopefully someone reading it somewhere will take notice.

Originally posted to volleyboy1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 10:33 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tips for calling out the "Government by Chaos" (19+ / 0-)

    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

    by volleyboy1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 10:19:41 AM PDT

  •  meanwhile in a minor sideshow (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    psychodrew, RedPencil, volleyboy1, Mets102

    there is a diary about the little boat headed for Gaza getting interdicted -- with the usual complaints from the Israel bashers about the treatment of the passengers aboard. As if a 33 foot catamaran with many passengers would carry enough to help anyone in Gaza. It would have just been a big propaganda victory for Hamas, which is clearly on the wrong side.

  •  signing off for Jewish holiday (6+ / 0-)

    nothing of importance will happen until Saturday night. Chag sameach!

  •  Tipped and Rec'd... (5+ / 0-)

    I understand perfectly what you're saying.  I feel the same exact frustration right now at the current Israeli government.

    Lieberman is now complaining that Barak and Avodah are turning the government into "Shalom Achshav" and calling for Kadima to replace Avodah in the coalition.

    I think it's starting to become clear that the coalition is no longer feasible and something has to give.  It was pretty much self-evident from the time that you had Yisrael Beiteinu and Avodah sharing a coalition where both were of relatively equal size and either leaving would push the government near or below the necessary number of MKs to survive.

    Hopefully, this ends with Lieberman being fired and YB being kicked out of the government, although I'm inclined to think that's unlikely, unfortunately.

    Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

    by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 10:56:02 AM PDT

  •  It's really easy (6+ / 0-)

    to get back on track.  Israel needs to stop supporting religious settlers financially.  

    If Netanyahu loses the religious parties and Yisrael Beitenu in the pursuit of peace, don't you think Kadima would come in?  He really has nothing to lose.  A coalition of Labor, Likkud, and Kadima could deliver.

    I think he is still ambivalent about peace.  Frankly, I think the refusal to extend the settlement not-quite-freeze is a direct insult to Abbas and Obama, and I would not blame Abbas for leaving.  I am also concerned that Abbas does not represent enough of the Palestinian people to be able to deliver on his end.

    When shit happens, you get fertilized.

    by ramara on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:02:27 AM PDT

    •  I agree... but it is not easy (4+ / 0-)

      It takes courage. This is not pulling out of Gaza - It will take some military action to pull some of these settlements out.

      Netanyahu right now has no inclination to even begin to take on what he needs to do. He has power in Israel, and he is trying to and succeeding at turning things into "Fortress Israel".

      I don't blame Abbas for leaving and as an American I am pissed off. We have regional concerns. Israel is our ally - they need to help here.

      Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:07:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The big question here about Obama... (5+ / 0-)

        is whether he's willing to knock the heads together and convince Netanyahu that it would be in his best political interest to dump Lieberman, bring on Livni, and move forward with peace.

        I agree with those that think Lieberman is making a play right now for the leadership of the National Camp; and I think that Lieberman is likely to win that fight.  He's to the right of Netanyahu and elements on the settler-right don't trust Netanyahu because of Wye River and his Bar-Ilan speech.

        Netanyahu would be better served doing what Arik Sharon did.  The difference, this time, is that Netanyahu has more support internally in Likud than Sharon did, so instead of leaving the Likud to form a new party, Netanyahu could potentially force the Greater Israel crowd to split, if he was so inclined.  That could save Israel from the mess of having new elections yet again.  However, if he does not do this, then the opposition must continue trying to defeat the government in the Knesset and bring about new elections.

        Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

        by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:26:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good analysis (3+ / 0-)

          Unfortunately I don't think Obama either wants to (due to election concerns) or is willing to (because if he won't do it here why would he do it there). I mean he can't up the juice to go after the insane Tea Partiers - he is not going to do anything here, not with elections a month away.

          It's too bad because there are a million practical reasons why nothing will happen, but, great leaders are the ones who make things happen against the odds. Apparently we are short some "great leaders".

          Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:33:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  With elections only a month away... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Paul in Berkeley, volleyboy1

            He might have enough behind-the-scenes pull to keep things going until at least then.  I've seen it reported that Abbas won't leave before the mid-terms because he doesn't want to cause Obama political damage.

            Personally, I think that this year's mid-terms are not going to be as bad as all the doom and gloom prognosticators are making it out to be, and while there will be some Democratic losses in the House, Democrats will retain control of both the House and the Senate.

            Once the mid-term is out of the way, Obama will then have a freer hand to apply pressure on Netanyahu to get Lieberman out and Livni or Mofaz in.  I Livni would be hard-pressed to refuse an appeal by Obama to join the coalition, particularly if Kadima was essentially getting what it wanted.  If she did, I think she would probably be replaced with Mofaz in short order, particularly since he is looking to do so already.

            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

            by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:37:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But she will only join the coalition (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Paul in Berkeley, Mets102

              on terms that Netanyahu stops settlement and gets serious about peace... That is basically what she said.

              I think November is going to be a blood bath, I think we lose both the house and Senate. What makes it worse is that we are losing to a bunch of certifiable morons so what does that say about us... but, I am voting anyway because if I don't, who do I have to blame but, myself.

              Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:42:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think as more Americans realize... (3+ / 0-)

                just how crazy the teabaggers are, the less and less they are supporting them.  That's what's going to save the House and the Senate.

                As for Israel, I think after the mid-term Obama will have a freer hand to apply pressure on Bibi and take advantage of the fact that Bibi wants to stay in power.  If that means freezing the settlements and bringing Livni into the government, then I have no doubt Bibi will do so, and do so with great rapidity.

                Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:52:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  If settlers legally own the land... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eiron, issy98

      should they be able to stay if they so choose?

      Also, since Abbas cannot deliver as you say, does this not mean that there is nothing Israel could do anyway?

      Personally, if the settlements were not there, I don't think much would change.  The issues are far more complex and involve too many parties.

      So long as Abbas must get approval from the Arab League, there needs to be an Arab-Israeli solution.  This is what, I believe, Obama and the others should call for.  That is where there could be transformation, one way or the other.

      Insults do not change minds. I likely will choose not to reply. And my view does not invariably depend on your interpretation or projection, just my own.

      by citizen53 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:36:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would expect so (0+ / 0-)

        they just need to comply with Palestinian law, and pay their taxes to the Palestinian State authorities.  The Palestinian declaration of Independence is very clear on this.

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 01:08:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  However, what you surmise and Palestinian... (0+ / 0-)

          leaders decide may not be one and the same.  There is anything but clarity, perhaps intentionally so.

          Not very encouraging when selling land to Israelis is a capital offense.

          And quite frankly, the record of mistreatment does not inspire confidence.

          Jewish minorities often bear the brunt when things go wrong for the majority, in Islamic and Christian states.  Who better to blame?    

          Insults do not change minds. I likely will choose not to reply. And my view does not invariably depend on your interpretation or projection, just my own.

          by citizen53 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 01:31:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the record of mistreatment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie, capelza

            should not be an issue, once Israeli security forces no longer have jurisdiction, I agree

            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

            by Eiron on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 04:11:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The mistreatment goes back... (0+ / 0-)

              1300 years.  Of course it should be considered.  Why is that any less worthy than others' suffering?

              Insults do not change minds. I likely will choose not to reply. And my view does not invariably depend on your interpretation or projection, just my own.

              by citizen53 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 12:15:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Mistreatment of the Palestinians (0+ / 0-)

                has gone back 1300 years?  I thought you were referring to the msitreatment of the Palestinians by the modern government of Israel.  They would be right to have little confidence in any purely verbal assurances.

                And quite frankly, the record of mistreatment does not inspire confidence.

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 03:37:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I was talking about from a Jewish perspective (0+ / 0-)

                  Too few care about that.  Get over it.  That's the message.  

                  Too few understand why Israelis, many of whom come from Arab states, should have reason to be wary of the huge majorities around them that, historically, treated them as second class citizens without equal rights.  Why is such persistent racial discrimination tolerated, as if only Zionists are capable of apartheid?

                  Jews have ALWAYS been the minority that is easy to dump on because of their small numbers.  That is true in Muslim AND Christian states, and it continues.  Yet they are treated as if they were the dominant, tyrannical power over these other religious majorities that, in fact, abused and oppressed them at will.

                  As Castro said:

                  He said the Iranian government should understand the consequences of theological anti-Semitism. "This went on for maybe two thousand years," he said. "I don't think anyone has been slandered more than the Jews. I would say much more than the Muslims. They have been slandered much more than the Muslims because they are blamed and slandered for everything. No one blames the Muslims for anything." The Iranian government should understand that the Jews "were expelled from their land, persecuted and mistreated all over the world, as the ones who killed God. In my judgment here's what happened to them: Reverse selection. What's reverse selection? Over 2,000 years they were subjected to terrible persecution and then to the pogroms. One might have assumed that they would have disappeared; I think their culture and religion kept them together as a nation." He continued: "The Jews have lived an existence that is much harder than ours. There is nothing that compares to the Holocaust." I asked him if he would tell Ahmadinejad what he was telling me. "I am saying this so you can communicate it," he answered.

                  And more from Fidel:

                  But what's even stranger is that Fidel, this historic, iconic figure for global leftists, expresses nothing but sympathy for Jews, for the history of Jewish suffering, and even for the Jewish state. He doesn't have much love for its governments, but for the idea of Israel? Nothing but support.

                  I asked him, during the course of our first conversation: "Do you think the State of Israel, as a Jewish State, has a right to exist?"

                  Fidel Castro answered, "Si, sin ninguna duda" -- "Yes, without a doubt."

                  When I followed-up by asking if he -- or, more to the point, his brother's government -- would reestablish relations with Israel, he gave a simple procedural answer -- these things take time -- rather than a condemnation of the idea. He went on, as I detailed in an earlier post, to express great sympathy for persecuted Jews throughout history, but he also said -- and this is truly notable -- that he understands how such suffering could inform the decision-making of Israel's prime minister: "Now, lets imagine that I were Netanyahu," Castro said, "that I were there and I sat down to reason through (the issues facing Israel), I would remember that six million Jewish men and women, of all ages were exterminated in the concentration camps."

                   

                  Maybe Castro's words are applicable to the Palestinian leaders as well, and to others who gloss over Jewish identity and desire for self-determination.

                  When will Jews be allowed to live in peace and security, free from the hatred that is directed at them under the guise of anti-Zionism?  

                  And when will Palestinians have equal rights in ALL places they have habitual residence?

                  Looking at how Palestinians are treated by other Arabs provides a clear window as to what kind of human rights could be expected if Jews were again a minority in a Muslim state.  Thanks but no thanks.

                  Insults do not change minds. I likely will choose not to reply. And my view does not invariably depend on your interpretation or projection, just my own.

                  by citizen53 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 04:35:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think both sides (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    capelza

                    have legitimate, historically supported suspicions of any promises of security assurances.

                    However, Israel exists, proudly, a homeland for Jews who desire to live in a state in which Jewishness is welcomed and protected.  That has only existed for 60 of the last 1300 years.  

                    Let's see the Palestinians have the same opportunity.

                    People who object to the occupation and denial of Palestinian civil rights are not operating under the guise of anti-zionism, no matter how often you claim so.

                    It is essentially zionist to seek means and measures to assure security for the State of Israel, for which which the occupation project is utterly contrary

                    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                    by Eiron on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 06:05:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I differ strongly with your statement... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JNEREBEL

                      People who object to the occupation and denial of Palestinian civil rights are not operating under the guise of anti-zionism, no matter how often you claim so.

                      There are PLENTY who do, yet you seem to deny that reality.  I never said it was all of them, did I?

                      Yet your statement makes it seem as if there are none, when the examples are numerous, in the Middle East and elsewhere.

                      Sorry, but there are also PLENTY who do not support Israel's right to exists as a Jewish state or at all, and they DO use anti-Zionism as a screen for something much more sinister.

                      If it's only 1% of Muslims or Christians, how many is that compared to 100% of Jewish people on the planet?

                      Insults do not change minds. I likely will choose not to reply. And my view does not invariably depend on your interpretation or projection, just my own.

                      by citizen53 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 06:34:00 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RedPencil

          "I'm willing to agree to a third party that would supervise the agreement, such as NATO forces, but I would not agree to having Jews among the NATO forces, or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land," he was quoted by Wafa, the official Palestinian news agency.

          Abbas

          •  Oh please (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, Tom J

            Abbas rejects the idea of the presence of Israeli security forces in the supervisory forces on Palestinian territory.  

            Is Israel willing to accept the reverse?  PA forces patrolling Tel Aviv for compliance with the agreement?  Makes sense to me

            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

            by Eiron on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 04:33:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Read it all. Then stop apologizing for him (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psychodrew, RedPencil

              "or that there will live among us even a single Israeli on Palestinian land"

              •  That article.. (4+ / 0-)

                ..which appeared at Ynet's site was written by a researcher/fellow from the Jerusalem Center of Public Affairs, a right-wing hack site headed by another right-wing hack, Dore Gold, and sounds like a distortion, based on my knowledge of the PA's past stance on Jews living in a future Palestinian state.

                Please don't cite right-wing sources at this site;   this is not the first time I've seen you do it.

                •  What are you? The Kos Keystone police? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psychodrew

                  I don't appreciate the insinuation you make against a fellow Kossack. Please don't do it again.

                  •  It's not an.. (4+ / 0-)

                    ..insinuation; it's a fact.   The article you site is from a right-wing source, and I've noticed you quote from right-wing sources before user #255620.

                    This isn't a right-wing site.  I'll continue to point out when you link to right-wing sources and spout right wing talking points.   If you don't like it complain to admin.

                    •  Not at all a fact. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      issy98

                      Oh fuck that. People here quote anti-Israel NGOs and the Human Rights Council, an organization that even the former UN SecGen recognized was anti-Israel. Ynet is not the RNC. You can't go calling organizations right wing just because you don't like them.

                      Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

                      by psychodrew on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 08:27:03 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's a trick of the trade for many around here. (0+ / 0-)

                        It shows their desperation. The fallacy is poisoning the well but I suspect few who do it ever studied logic.

                      •  Is a fact (5+ / 0-)

                        The opinion piece from JCPA appeared in ynet; opinion pieces by Bill Kristol have appeared in the NY Times; doesn't mean a an opinion piece by Bill Kristol should be used a source here.    Here the user links to a pro Jonathon Pollard site.

                        It's perfectly fine here to quote from Human Right's NGO's; not so much from "left-leaning" or what-have-you sites that dabble in CT or antisemitism, such as Antiwar.com, Counterpunch and a few others.   I support that.

                    •  You might have a point if I was doing it (0+ / 0-)

                      most of the time but I don't; but then I'm not an ideological snob. Discussion takes more than one viewpoint to work. Even the dKos FAQ's recognize that.

                      Who posts here?

                      The quick answer is "anyone who wants to". There are a wide variety of people writing diaries and comments on dkos. They include elected politicians, candidates hoping to become elected politicians, experts in a range of fields, and active bloggers from around the net. The vast majority of writers, however, are ordinary citizens interested in talking about and participating in the political process. The majority of people posting here fall on the liberal side of the US political spectrum, however people of conservative views are welcome to come and debate.

                      So see, I'm a Liberal so I know that it is stupid to hide your head in the sand when other opinions than your favorites are posted. That's what causes most of the silly fighting around here and it's always because too many posters are at ideological extremes rather than taking the Liberal POV.

                      So like, be a tattletale all you want. It just makes you look juvenile.

  •  As Israel doesn't know it's borders (7+ / 5-)

    how can anyone recognize it as a state?

    Israel is not a state - it's more like an amoeba.

    Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

    by high5 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:19:56 AM PDT

    •  HR'ed for this: (7+ / 1-)

      Israel is not a state

      Last I checked, Israel is a member of the United Nations and has diplomatic relations with over 150 countries.

      No denying the statehood of a state that has relations with the overwhelming majority of countries.

      Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

      by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:33:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Soon (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        borkitekt

        that will be said about the Palestinian State, they will be a member of the UN, and have diplomatic relations with the overwhelming majority of nations, let's hope they have defined borders and soveriegn territory.

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 12:37:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I recommended (6+ / 0-)

        it because I think your HR is problematic.  The line you quote is a set up and then the dash leads to the punchline.  It's an attempt at a joke, not an antisemitic attack on the right of Israel to exist.

      •  Why exactly is this HR'd? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie, elliott, Celtic Merlin

        Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

        by borkitekt on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 01:43:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Best guess? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zannie, elliott, borkitekt

          Why exactly is this HR'd?

          For high5's sig.

          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

          by callmecassandra on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 02:28:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  pfft. (7+ / 0-)

            been through that with barnside's hissyness.

            Snarking about Israel's unwillingness to define its borders, or, rather, expand itself into Palestinian territory isn't HR-able.

            Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

            by borkitekt on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 02:39:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Just curious... (5+ / 0-)

            Did you read the comment where I explain the HR?

            HR'ed for this: (2+ / 0-)

            Israel is not a state

            Last I checked, Israel is a member of the United Nations and has diplomatic relations with over 150 countries.

            No denying the statehood of a state that has relations with the overwhelming majority of countries.

            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

            by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 02:33:16 PM EDT

            It has nothing to do with the sig line, which is evident if you actually read the comment.

            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

            by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 02:55:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  cassandra, I have a problem with that line. (4+ / 0-)

            As should we all.

            It's a blaring chunk of disrespect and I wouldn't tolerate it from CH2 if he was refusing to capitalize "Palestinian" or "Arab" or "Muslim".  Honestly, none of us should tolerate that.  And high5 has been asked several times by several people (including me) to correct that.

            While the HR's are a bunch of bullshit false indignity, I won't uprate it as his snark is poor.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't up it, just explaining why I won't.

            In the meanwhile, please don't blow off the tagline (sigline).  It isn't just "not nice", it is an unnecessary stick into the eye of every Jew here and should not be tolerated by anybody in I/P.

            Celtic Merlin
            Carlinist

            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

            by Celtic Merlin on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 08:33:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Respectfully... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brecht, borkitekt

              Such things aren't that important to me. The reason I bother to capitalize the "J" in Jew or the "A" in Arab or the "B" in Black is because I'm anal. The words simply don't look right without caps.

              I do hear the complaints and I'm respectful enough not to challenge or make a deal of it. But I see no disrespect.

              Some things are worth the risk of raising one's blood pressure. high5's sig just ain't it. However, that's just me and I don't expect anyone to agree with how I see it. Just trying to let you know where I'm coming from.

              But if so many people heave objections to high5's sig, then perhaps the matter should be delivered over to MB.

              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

              by callmecassandra on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 09:58:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  high5 had no problem capitalizing (4+ / 0-)

                Palestine in that very same line.

                Community moderation is supposed to work without having to call Meteor Blades all of the time.  He's one person on a very big blog.

                I'm not going to pursue the matter further in this diary, but people have brought this up to high5 before, with absolutely no response.  There's not much effort involved in editing two letters in a sigline.  With minimal effort, high5 could be respectful.

                Furthermore, it's not like the same type of criticismhasn't been said to people who haven't capitalized  the word, Palestinian.

                Basic respect goes a long way towards furthering civility.  But like I said, not going to pursue this any further right now.  

                •  He also capitalized Israel. (0+ / 0-)

                  Look, high5 hasn't changed his sig at your gentle suggestions nor your threats. This means it's time to take the complaint to an admin - if it bothers you this much. Risk being, you might not like the judgment handed down. But like I said, if it's really important, if it really bothers you, then this is your only option. Well, that or diaries that incinerate over a sig.

                  The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                  by callmecassandra on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 10:50:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  If you look at earlier comments... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza

              ...by high5, you'll see that he also does not capitalize "x-tians" or "muslims." Nobody called him on that at the time, although, of course, those usages didn't have the same impact as a sig line.

              Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 11:34:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So he's consistently disrespectful. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                I didn't call him out on Christian or Muslim because I either missed the comment entirely or missed the improper usage.

                Either way, I can easily see how the Jewish commenters in I/P might be offended by this.  I'd have just as much of a problem with the usages you mentioned and other usages such as Irish, Italian, and Russian.  These words are used as references to entire peoples, and deserve capitalization.  So does "Jew", "Jewish", and "Jews".  If he has no respect for religious concepts, then he can refrain from capitalizing "Judaism" - if he remains consistent regarding all religious concepts.

                Being consistent on this issue would mean never capitalizing much of anything.  The problem is that he knows how and when to capitalize - as is evident in most everything he's typed.  He's simply choosing to not capitalize Jew because it's an unnecessary irritation that he enjoys.

                You wanna take this up with the I/P Jewish community?  Their opinion about this might matter alot more than mine ever will.  I'm not even Jewish.  Hell, I'm an atheist and I don't even capitalize THAT word.  Go figure, huh?

                C M
                C

                Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                by Celtic Merlin on Fri Oct 01, 2010 at 02:56:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Umm you guys must've missed this explanation (4+ / 0-)

          HR'ed for this: (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by: JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

          Israel is not a state

          Last I checked, Israel is a member of the United Nations and has diplomatic relations with over 150 countries.

          No denying the statehood of a state that has relations with the overwhelming majority of countries.

          Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

          by Mets102 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:33:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent | Reply to This | Recommend

          Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 02:37:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You tell us (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1, Mets102

          why you hide-rated Mets' comment?  Is that some kind of bizarro retaliatory HR? Explain yourself, why doncha.

          In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

          by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 06:39:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Downed for silly ratings abuse. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zannie

        Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

        by borkitekt on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 03:11:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  high5 - I'm issuing a warning to you here and now (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      borkitekt, volleyboy1

      While I actually "get" the snarkiness of your state/amoeba statement and will not HR it (but neither will I rec it, for it is poor snark), I still have a huge problem with one aspect of your tagline.  That is, your uncorrected "typo" of not capitalizing the word "Jew" twice in it.  It deserves capitalization just as much as Israel and Palestine deserve it and more so than Dissolve.

      I and others have politely requested that you fix that problem.  Yet you have ignored all requests to do so.  You're no noob to DKos.  You've been told how insulting is that problem in that tagline.

      My warning to you is this:  I see that tagline in future diaries, I'll HR every comment in which it appears until I run out of HRs.  I will ask others from the Pro-P side to join me in this.  I will also take this up with the moderator.

      Please adjust the capitalization.  I shall not ask again.  You give all of us on the Pro-P side a black eye with that BULLSHIT.

      With Utmost Sincerity,
      Celtic Merlin
      Carlinist

      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

      by Celtic Merlin on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 08:23:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is a commendable move. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Mets102

        So kudos.  At the same time, just because you cannot relate or understand doesn't mean the HRs are:

        a bunch of bullshit false indignity

        Don't assume false motives.  People of different perspectives, see different things.

      •  We're in Europe. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brecht, capelza

        Both of us are in Sweden and normally 'jews' and 'palestinians' are not capitalized, though perhaps if we are one might if we think of palestinians as referring to Palestine, or Israelis to Israel. (Wife says no, not in Sweden.) But not jews.

        An article here in today's (jewish owned) paper cites:

        Israels utrikesminister: Låt Israels araber bli en del av det nya Palestina

        Lägg gränsen så att också israels arabiska befolkning kan bli en del av Palestina. Det var ett av de förslag som Israels utrikesminister, Avigdor Lieberman, framförde inför FN i går tisdag. Reaktionerna på talet var skarpa, både från palestinier, men också från amerikanska judar och från andra ministrar i Israels regering, som menade att Liebermans utspel saboterade fredsprocessen.

        Israel's foreign minister: Let Israel's arabs be a part of the new Palestine

        Establish the boundaries so that israel's arabic population can be a part of the new Palestine. That was one of the proposals Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, presented in front of the UN yesterday tuesday. The reactions to the speech were sharp, both from palestinians, but also from american jews and from other ministers in Israel's government, who thought that Lieberman's (agressive/offending) speech sabotaged the peace process.

        Furthermore, there is another cultural difference at play- the Jante lagen, as they say- no one is better than the next person, equality, in other words. And that is very appropriate for this situation.

        Dissolve Israel? Sure, why not? I can't think of a better candidate for non-violent regime change. We don't have to believe in the paranoia that if jews don't have their own state a larger genocide may someday occur. Especially if that means Israel shall exist as an ethnocracy discriminating against 20% of it's population, and, as Lieberman and others want, to kick them out of their homes.

        Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

        by borkitekt on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 11:45:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You don't need tto defend me, bork. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          borkitekt

          This man/woman Celtic Merlin may hide rate me into oblivion if that's his/her wish. I'll just say this;

          I'm very sorry for people like Celtic Merlin. Seeing anti-semitism in everything around isn't a sign of health.

          Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

          by high5 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 04:11:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, you and CM are probably on the same side (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Celtic Merlin, volleyboy1

            of the issues, and I think CM is the last to see AS in anything.

            Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

            by borkitekt on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 04:16:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  He didn't read the entire comment. (0+ / 0-)

              He missed this:

              I will ask others from the Pro-P side to join me in this.

              .
              And he missed this:

              You give all of us on the Pro-P side a black eye with that BULLSHIT.

              .
              But, what should one expect of an uncooperative and insulting person - reading skills and comprehension?  LAFF!

              Celtic Merlin
              Carlinist

              Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

              by Celtic Merlin on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 08:23:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can read, I assure you that. (0+ / 0-)

                Your comments to me on my sig - even though you are on the Pro-P side as you say - clearly indicates you view my spelling habits as being anti-semitic.

                Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

                by high5 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 12:58:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wrong, wrong, wrong again. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  thebluecrayon, volleyboy1, Mets102

                  I don't view your "spelling habits" as antisemitic.  To somebody else they may be so, but not to me.  I view your "spelling habits" as insulting, disrespectful, and potentially inflammatory in a discussion area which is already quite flammable.

                  I don't care if you're from Europe, Africa, the West Bank, or anywhere else.  If you're going to capitalize Israel and Palestine and Dissolve, you should capitalize Jew.  Just like I did - see?  It isn't difficult.  Watch closely.  I'm going to do it again for you right now: Jew, Jew, Jew.  It is SO easy that even you can do it.

                  It's also proper use of the English language - which we use here on DKos.

                  So edit a couple of letters to show a basic level of respect for half the commenters here instead of conducting yourself in an inappropriate manner.

                  One needs to offer respect if one expects to earn any.  Especially around here.

                  Celtic Merlin
                  Carlinist

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 01:41:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Normally Jews and Palestinians... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, borkitekt, Mets102

          ...ARE capitalized in English. Since I don't speak Swedish, I have no idea why there is an inconsistency in the very article you cite about capitalizing "Israel."

          As for Europe, why not pick Germany if we're choosing non-English languages to bolster political choices via grammar in our discourse? Then we can capitalize ALL nouns.

          One thing is clear, however, high5 apparently does not discriminate in these matters, consistently lower-casing "x-tians" and "muslims" as well as "jews."

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 08:59:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  my point was only that we are expats here, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza

            and that in the process of going back and forth between languages I at least often forget what grammar rule or punctuation applies to what language.

            German- tried that. Well, it was 90% German and 10% Swedish at the time of mine Teachers head asploding.  

            Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

            by borkitekt on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 09:57:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  While I generally agree with what you state... (4+ / 0-)

            including the appropriate use of the English Language, the appropriate comparison here is not with Christians or Muslims.  Jew and Jewish refers not to the religion called Judaism, but rather to the Jewish ethnicity, with those having Jewish ethnicity being called Jews.  Therefore, the appropriate comparison would be to look at the treatment of other ethnicities, such as: Arab, English, French, German, Japanese, etc...

            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

            by Mets102 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 01:55:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I see your point, but "Jewish" and... (4+ / 0-)

              ..."Jew" do not exclusively refer to ethnicity, historically or now. An ethnic Jew can be a Christian, but do you call her Jewish? If I convert to Judaism, I certainly become a Jew, but I am not ethnically Jewish. All of this creates confusion just as does "Israeli," a label which encompasses, of course, a large percentage of people who aren't Jewish.

              All this linguistic arcaneness aside, the underlying point here is whether high5 - his opinions about Israel and Palestine aside - is, through his sig line, being purposely disrespectful by lower-casing "Jew" and "Jewish." I don't think so. But I don't see any reason why he should not change it given people's stated objections to it.

              Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 04:03:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ethnicity and Jewishness is a complicated issue (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                volleyboy1

                I do not deny that in the least.  If an ethnic Jew converted to Christianity, she would still be considered Jewish under Jewish Law, and her children (assuming, as here, that she is female), would be Jewish under Jewish Law, even if they were born many, many years after she converted.  In fact, you could have an infinite amount of generations in a direct maternal line stretching back hundreds or thousands of years, with no one knowing that they are Jewish, yet under Jewish Law they would be Jewish.

                If you converted to Judaism, then under Jewish Law you would effectively be considered ethnically Jewish because of how the law operates.  Conversion includes becoming a member of the Jewish People, and not merely being an adherent to the religion known as Judaism.  Additionally, it is considered improper and a violation of the law to ask one whether one was born Jewish or whether one has converted to Judaism.

                Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                by Mets102 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 04:13:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  But Jewish... (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza, blueyedace2, volleyboy1, Mets102

                  ...Law is a mixing of the religious and secular, isn't it?

                  I'm not trying to argue any point here - in a field where I am obviously not well versed - beyond the one about the intention behind the lower casing of "Jew" and "Jewish."

                  Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 04:35:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It is and it isn't... (3+ / 0-)

                    Jewish Law is about a way to live.  Certain elements do have to do with secular governance and much of it is the basis for traditional Western notions of morality, along with being similar of other secular and religious notions of morality regardless of origin (don't murder, don't steal, etc...)

                    I guess the problem in analyzing Jewishness in a contemporary context, is that Jewish ethnicity and the religion that goes along with it (Judaism), is an ancient religion that traces its roots back well over 3,000 years.  In many ways, how we identify, and mix ethnicity, and religion is a throwback to the ancient world that is not seen in comparatively new religions such as Christianity and Islam.

                    Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                    by Mets102 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 05:04:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Jewish is an ethno-religious group (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Mets102

                    but depending on one's stream of Judaism, you're going to get slightly different definitions of who's Jewish.  

                    One example of where these different definitions show themselves is under the law of return in Israel, some immigrants who are not Jewish under Jewish law were allowed to immigrate.  For purposes of immigration, the State of Israel has one definition, which includes Jewish ancestry.  The Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel has a different definition.  Reform Rabbis would have a definition that's closer to Israel's Immigration Law.  Similarly, different Jews would have different definitions of what they consider Jewish people who have renounced their faith for another one.  Unsure of the different official Rabbinate positions on renounced Judaism.

                    It does depend on whom you ask, but Jewish is more than just a religious designation.  This understanding is backed up by many studies that show common ancestry among Jews.  

                    And...thank you, for even trying to understand.  In a couple of words: It's messy.

                    •  Very well said... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JNEREBEL, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                      This part in particular just about sums it all up:

                      And...thank you, for even trying to understand.  In a couple of words: It's messy.

                      I'm not sure what the Reform position is, but Conservatism and Orthodoxy hold to the idea of once a Jew, always a Jew, meaning that even if one "renounces" Judaism, they are still Jewish and are still bound by Jewish Law.  It's the reason there could be an infinite number of generations since your last ancestor that was a practicing Jew, but if it's a direct maternal line you're Jewish and there's no need for conversion.

                      Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                      by Mets102 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 09:31:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You know, I was just talking to someone (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Mets102

                        about this very thing.  We were talking about how Orthodox Rabbis would consider a Jewish person (under the Orthodox definition) who had been practicing Christianity, still Jewish.  But we didn't talk about the other streams of Judaism.  I'd be curious to know, just to know.  On the other hand, Orthodox Rabbis would not consider someone who is of Jewish ancestry, but not through the mother, yet practicing Judaism, Jewish.  Reform and Reconstructionist Rabbis would consider those latter people, Jewish, from what I understand.

                        Sheesh, just typing that out was confusing. :)

                        •  Conservative/Masorti Judaism... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                          holds to the same rules as Orthodoxy when it comes to defining Jewishness, namely being solely through the maternal line and the idea of once a Jew, always a Jew and there's no converting out of being Jewish, although one can obviously cease practicing and/or adhere to another religion.  Doing so would only impact upon how one fits into the Jewish community and not their status of being Jewish as opposed to non-Jewish.

                          Of course, to add another mess, the problem comes with conversions, where if a woman converts Conservative, then Conservatism will obviously recognize the conversion and her children will be Jewish under Conservative Halacha.  However, Orthodoxy is unlikely to recognize the conversion, and therefore would not consider her children Jewish.

                          Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                          by Mets102 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 09:49:47 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Another wrinkle is (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            that Jews of any particular stream of Judaism may or may not agree with their Rabbis on the conversion issues.  

                            This may not be a difference in practice, but it probably confuses people who are trying to understand what exactly Jewish is.

                            I don't know if this applies to you or not, but some Conservative/Masorti Jews believe that Jews converted by Reform and Reconstructionist Rabbis should be considered Jews.  Not sure if some also believe that people with paternal ancestry should be considered Jews.  I haven't heard that latter one personally.  However, their Rabbis disagree.  

                            It's actually really understandable that this is confusing for people...and yet still frustrating at times.

                          •  With respect to conversion... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            I think that most people would accept conversions by rabbis in good standing of their particular branch of Judaism, along with conversions by rabbis from more religious branches.

                            As to my personal opinion surrounding to Reform and Reconstructionist conversions they're complicated.  When someone converts through those branches, they identify themselves as members of our People, with all the good and bad that comes with it.  However, at the same time, because of the theology of those branches they have not accepted the binding nature of Halacha.

                            While I do not strictly observe Halacha (as evidence by the fact that I'm writing this very comment at the current moment because it is yom tov in the Diaspora), as a Conservative I do accept its binding nature.  I therefore find issue with Reform and Reconstructionist conversions, because I consider acceptance of the binding nature of Halacha important.

                            On the ancestry issue, Reconstructionists determine as individual congregations whether to recognize both patrilineal and matrilineal descent (just read this on Wikipedia).  Reform accepts either patrilineal or matrilineal descent so long as one identifies as Jewish. Conservative/Masorti still adheres to the traditional rule of only matrilineal descent, along with the prohibition on intermarriage; Conservative/Masorti rabbis will not officiate at a marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew.

                            My position would therefore come down to this:  I support the Law of Return covering all conversions (Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative/Masorti, Orthodox), and at some base level I would consider Reform and Reconstructionist converts as fellow Jews.  However, I would not marry a woman that underwent only a Reform or Reconstructionist conversion, or the daughter of a woman that underwent such a conversion, and only such a conversion.

                            The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                            by Mets102 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 11:44:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Should read... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            "As to my personal opinion surround Reform and Reconstructionist conversions, it's complicated..."

                            The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                            by Mets102 on Fri Oct 01, 2010 at 12:27:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Complicated question... (0+ / 0-)

                Although people can debate about whether Judaism is a religion or Jews are an ethnicity, generally (not always), in America, the following applies.

                Being born Jewish
                Someone born to a Jewish mother is born Jewish.  Someone born to a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is not Jewish; however, in mainstream reform Judaism, that person may be considered born Jewish.  Alternately, if the father converts before the child is born, the child maybe be considered born Jewish.  An adopted child, by Jewish parents, who has a childhood conversation and goes in a mikveh is Jewish; however, the conversation is not necessarily needed in the more liberal streams of Judaism.

                Being Jewish after birth. - One may convert to Judaism.  Then, they are Jewish.  There is no common concept of "he's ethnically _, but Jewish by religion".  If a Mexican person converts to Judaism, they might self-identify as a Mexican Jew.  But they're still just Jewish. - If one takes another religion, they're no longer Jewish.  There's no such thing in mainstream Judaism as a Christian Jew or a Muslim Jew. - That said, if one drops out of religion, they're still Jewish.  While there aren't Christian Jews, there are athiest Jews and agnostic Jews and secular Jews.  So, while the previous point went along religious lines, this is more of an ethnic description. - Finally, there is an least some question among very liberal Jews about whether one can take a non-exclusive religion (typically an eastern religion) and still be Jewish.  For example, is a Jew-Budd a Jew?  I don't think there's a uniform answer to this question.

                "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                by oldskooldem on Fri Oct 01, 2010 at 07:52:05 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Sign of a Loco Government (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie, elliott, borkitekt

    I guess everyone heard about the ship "Irene" carrying Jewish peace activists that was intercepted.

    This is what the Israeli Foreign Ministry had to say:

    The official criticized former pilot Yonatan Shapira and the Holocaust survivor who took part in the flotilla.

    "This former pilot, who has joined the ranks of Hamas and sprays hateful graffiti on the walls of the Warsaw Ghetto, is not a pilot but an astronaut. A Holocaust survivor who sanctifies the name of the Jews' murderers and takes time to justify those who don't accept Israel's right for sovereignty has probably not learned anything from the terrible past."

    Oh and in case anyone is wondering what the "hateful graffiti" was he painted the words "Free Palestine" in an obvious case of hate speech.

    Non Violence is fine... so long as it works. - Malcolm X

    by Dr Marcos on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 12:35:40 PM PDT

  •  Bibi will not disavow his FM and will (4+ / 0-)

    ultimately cause the breakup of his coalition in his attempt to salvage his coalition.

    Vote of no confidence to follow and new elections to install a government that truly seeks peace.

    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

    by JNEREBEL on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 12:58:47 PM PDT

    •  And-while new government is forming (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      capelza, borkitekt

      guess what?  No progress possible on peace talks-obviously. Nobody is in charge.  Put on hold.

      But someone can sign building permits, and demolition orders.

      and the beat goes on.

      when Olmert was a lame duck and under indictment for corruption, no progress on peace talks could be made.  But he could launch "cast lead"

      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

      by Eiron on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 01:05:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If I could wish a different scenerio into (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, Mets102

        becoming reality I would.

        Peace has taken too long and will take too long still.

        But it will come.

        And two states living in peace side by side will be the new reality.

        "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

        by JNEREBEL on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 01:14:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Looks like BDS took just took (7+ / 0-)

    a hit and from South Africa no less....OOOPS..:

    South African academicians reject call to boycott Israeli university

    University of Johannesburg professors rejected calls to sever ties with an Israeli university Wednesday, but called on Ben-Gurion University to work with its Palestinian counterparts.

    Calls for similar academic boycotts to protest Israel's Palestinian policies also have failed in the West.

    The South African university's faculty senate met Wednesday to vote on the proposal, which had been endorsed by anti-apartheid icon Archbishop Desmond Tutu, but instead accepted a compromise without a vote. They asked Ben-Gurion University to work with Palestinian universities on research projects, and to start the collaborations within six months if it wants to maintain ties with the University of Johannesburg.

    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

    by volleyboy1 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 02:28:35 PM PDT

  •  Thx for the diary. (9+ / 0-)

    And I really loved Burston's piece. He expressed the frustrations many of us are feeling.

  •  OK, Volley (6+ / 0-)

    Now I understand why you love Brad Burston so much.  This is the first time I've read his work, and boy is he so. right. on.  And I love the way he distinguishes between hating settlers and hating settlements.  Everyone would do well to remember that distinction -- even though some of the settlers, the ideological and aggressive ones, are trouble-makers.

    And Strenger is hilarious!  The line that made me LOL was

    This is a truly wonderful system, in which most groups genuinely feel that they are running the country.

    Is there any synagogue or Jewish organization that doesn't have this quality?!  Machers, everywhere.

    I'm just waiting for our fellow kossak, Borat, to chime in with a spelling correction on the name.

    Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

    by hikerbiker on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 08:46:23 PM PDT

  •  Thoughtful analysis and context, volley. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arielle, volleyboy1, Mets102, canadian gal

    I've been wondering all day if the U.S. negotiators understand that this settlement freeze isn't just a settlement freeze to certain people in the Israeli government.  Also, that there have been longtime concerns that moving against the settlers could spark civil war.  Otherwise, attempts at negotiation are at the wrong starting point.  Negotiating the wrong thing doesn't get people anywhere.

    Btw, I'm also wondering who this recognition is by:

    Clinton spoke with Netanyahu twice on Tuesday about the American proposal. Under the proposal, the U.S. would give Israel guarantees on the issues of security arrangements, refugees and recognition of Israel a Jewish state. In exchange, Israel would extend the settlement freeze for several months.

    Is this recognition by the U.S. of Israel as a Jewish state or something else?  

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