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In just a matter of hours, notorious Islamophobe Daniel Pipes & Commentary Magazine writer Jennifer Rubin will headline a high-dollar fundraiser for the Tea-Party opponent of JStreetPAC endorsee, Illinois Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.

Yes, this is the same Jennifer Rubin who wrote that American Jews have a "sick addiction" to liberal values.

And yes, this is the same Daniel Pipes who said that a vibrant American Muslim community "presents true dangers to American Jews" and has opposed every peace process in the past two decades.

They'll be following the lead of Alan Dershowitz, who headlined his own anti-Jan fundraiser this past summer (In response, JStreetPAC supporters raised over $40,000 in a matter of hours).

I couldn't paint you a clearer picture of what we're up against. And you won't find a clearer picture of who we support than Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.

Jan is one of our movement's most important and influential allies. She's a powerhouse in Congress, and a true leader in the progressive and Jewish communities.

The battle lines couldn't be more starkly drawn.

Rep. Schakowsky's Tea Party-affiliated opponent has called on Jan to return our contributions and renounce our support.  He's tried to make JStreetPAC itself a campaign issue, preferring to attack us instead of providing a real vision for America's foreign policy.

But Rep. Schakowsky has rejected those calls and continues to speak with deep understanding and conviction on the role the US can play in securing Israel's future as a Jewish, democratic home:

I reject calls by my GOP opponent to return campaign contributions from JStreetPAC and his cynical attempt to turn Israel into a partisan wedge issue at this delicate and potentially historic moment. I stand behind President Obama's efforts to provide Israel with the lasting peace and security that only a two-state solution can achieve. And I commend JStreetPAC for its ongoing efforts to encourage debate and broaden the pro-Israel tent.    

As the peace talks hang on the precipice, and the window for achieving a two-state solution continues to close, let's make it clear that Rubin, Pipes and their ilk can't deter bold steps for peace by playing partisan politics over Israel.

Click here to thank Rep. Schakowsky for fighting back with a $25 contribution.
Alan Dershowitz headlined a fundraiser for Jan's opponent Joel Pollak this summer that raised $30,000 -- but JStreetPAC supporters topped that by a wide margin, raising $45,000 for Rep. Schakowsky while their fundraiser was going on.

The strength of our first response reminded the political world that the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement is a force to be reckoned with.

Now it's our time to do it again.

Jan will not stay silent with the possibility of peace in sight -- and neither will we.  

Click here to send a message that the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement can deliver for its leaders with a $25 contribution.  

Originally posted to Isaac Luria at J Street on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:21 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Why don't you just (5+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib, psychodrew, Scioto, soysauce, Carboloaded
      Hidden by:
      Mets102

      largest donor--a Hong Kong citizen--to make the donation instead?

      Seriously, Schakowsky has no chance of even a remotely competitive race.  Why would anyone donate dollars to her instead of to Democrats like Jack Conway (D-KY) running against anti-Israel Republicans.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:30:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  HR'ed for hijack attempt n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thebluecrayon

        The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

        by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:32:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How is a comment about Schakowsky (0+ / 0-)

          possibly a hijack attempt?   The diary is about Schakowsky.  Supporting her will NOT support the cause of more and better Democrats--there is not a single service out her that rates her seat anything but "Safe Democrat".

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:35:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, she has a safe seat. (0+ / 0-)
            And that is unfortunate, not because of her voting record on the issues, but because Schakowsky has has an ethics problem... her husband, Robert Creamer, a convicted felon for a check-kiting scam involving a political organization that he ran and Schakowsky was a key member of the Board of Directors.  

            For years, Schakowsky has put up the face as a top progressive reformer to the national crowd, even while she and her husband concocted a number of schemes to be defacto political bosses of their home town of north suburban Evanston, adjacent suburbs and the north lakefront of Chicago.  Eventually it all caught up to Creamer.  But he got lucky.  The federal case was heard by the late Federal Judge James Moran, who accepted a plea deal for Creamer and gave him in effect a 40 lashes with the wet noodle sentence... effectively just four months in prison.  

            But here is the kicker.  After sentencing, but before starting his prison sentence, Creamer was allowed to go to the Caribbean with his wife for a vacation.  I guess it helped that Creamer had had business dealings with Moran's son-in-law.

            I know Pollak won't win.  But if he slashes Schakowsky's plurality perhaps the Illinois General Assembly will draw a congressional district next year that will give a progressive Democrat without Schakowsky's baggage to run and beat her in the 2012 Democratic Primary.

            •  Not a chance... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Randall Sherman

              There's going to be a district that represents Evanston and the lakefront liberals, and she'll run for it.  There aren't enough Republican voters anywhere near there that they could even draw a PVI 0 district.  At most, they could potentially draw Seals and Schakowsky together, but she'd absolutely clean his clock.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:38:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Don't forget though... (0+ / 0-)

                ...Illinois has have some really creative-looking Congressional Districts recently (for example Cong. Gutierrez' IL-04 or Cong. Hare's IL-17).  It will be very interesting to see how the districts look after the next remap.

        •  Uprated for inappropriate HR (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, Scioto

          You know your HR just brings more attention to OSD.  It is not fair to the diarist to add fuel to the fire.  

          [H]uman history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. H. Zinn

          by soysauce on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:35:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  soy... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, science nerd, thebluecrayon

            this is part of his continuing attack on J Street.  I'm just wondering when he's going to start personally attacking the head of J Street.

            The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

            by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:36:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've already called for (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psychodrew

              Pinnochio Ben Ami to step down.  He blatantly lied to the Jewish press about Soros and lied again about Goldstone.  The organization would be much better run by someone like Robert Wexler or, if he loses, Alan Grayson.  I suspect if Wexler or Grayson ran it, I'd be able to get behind its agenda.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:38:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  He didn't attack J Street in this comment. (0+ / 0-)

              He asked a legitimate question about their strategy.

              You know your HRs are extreme if I'm uprating OSD.  The last diary on this topic went down the pipe will too many unjustified HRs.  We've already waited too many comments under the tip jar on this.  That will be my final word on this topic.

              [H]uman history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. H. Zinn

              by soysauce on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:38:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Take a look at... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, thebluecrayon

                this comment.  That's exactly what I was referring to.  Also, he posted this attack to the tip jar after I already commented.  It's a clear hijack attempt and you know that; and you also know that hijack attempts are donut-worthy.

                The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:41:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That still (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psychodrew

                  doesn't have anything to do with the comment you HR'ed, which was largely about the pointlessness of directing Democratic money to safe Dems instead of competitive Dems running against anti-Israel Republicans like Jack Conway in his race against Rand Paul.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:43:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And don't forget to mention your (0+ / 0-)

                    dismay at Dershowitz' protoge and teabagger Pollak as the target.

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:56:37 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm a Democrat... (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm not anti-Schakowsky by any means.  In fact, I'm saying that our dollars should be sent to competitive pro-Israel Democrats.  Here are 5 of them to choose from:

                      Jack Conway
                      Harry Reid
                      Joe Manchin
                      Patty Murray
                      Michael Bennet

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:00:18 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Don't forget Joe Sestak (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        science nerd, hikerbiker, Mets102

                        however.... The forces of Right Wing Pro-Israel are going hard after Schwakowsky and they need to be countered. You don't have to contribute but why shouldn't anyone else?

                        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:03:23 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Schakowsky (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          psychodrew

                          is a safe Democrat.  Cook rates her a safe Democrat.  Rothenberg rates her a safe Democrat.  Nate Silver rates her a safe Democrat.  Sabato rates her a safe Democrat.

                          A Republican has never won anything in that district--its one of the most liberal districts in the country.  And her opponent has raised a hair over $200k.  He has absolutely no chance of winning.

                          I left out Sestak on purpose, as I'm staying out of that one.  I only give my money to pro-Israel Democrats.

                          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                          by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:06:57 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Too bad then that you don't (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dexter, science nerd, Mets102

                            even know what a Pro-I Dem. is if that is your opinion. Sestak is a great friend to Israel, and you would know that if you didn't listen to Bill Kristol and his merry band of hacks.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:09:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He was one of the Gaza 54. (0+ / 0-)

                            Schakowsky wasn't.  Nor were any of the Senate candidates I named.  Of all the Dems running for Senate this year, the only one I wouldn't shed a tear for is Joe Sestak.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:12:43 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Interesting .... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            you would rather let a "Club for Growth Republican" win than let a real friend of Israel like Sestak win. Kind of interesting priorities you have. I mean Sestak has a Pro-I voting record up and down the line. Just because he does not toe the line in lockstep with AIPAC you would let a true progressive Senate candidate bite it.

                            Kind of telling.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:16:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  AIPAC (0+ / 0-)

                            doesn't rate or endorse candidates.  Lots of money from AIPAC donors is going to Joe Sestak.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:19:39 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's not what I said (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I didn't mention whether AIPAC endorsed him or not. I said that he didn't toe the line with issues that AIPAC supports. Don't try to change the subject.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:22:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Regardless, (0+ / 0-)

                            he'd immediately be the most anti-Israel Democratic Senator now that Robert Byrd is no longer alive.  With the addition of a few anti-Israel tea party candidates on the right (like Rand Paul), they might be able to form a 3 or 4 person anti-Israel caucus.  That's not a good thing.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:25:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah except for the fact that this (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            comment makes no sense whatsoever. Not to mention is an unjustified smear. Here are Sestak's positions and voting record on Israel

                            Yesiree Bob, that sure is one Anti-Israel record </snark>. Would you care to try again - or are you like to stick the other foot in your mouth.

                            Again, I find it interesting that you would sell out a strong progressive Dem, for a "Club for Growth" Republican because he does not toe the line 100% on Israel.

                            Forgive me(well actually I don't really care if you do or not), but this is why I feel your criticsm of J Street has nothing to do with this race and a lot more with your ridiculous assertions that J Street and the candidates it supports are anti-Israel.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:35:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Notice (0+ / 0-)

                            there is no mention on his "pro-Israel page" of the anti-Israel initiatives he's supported.  He's been in the extreme minority of the House on certain anti-Israel legislation, most notably, the Gaza 54 letter that Tom J so glowingly diaried about.

                            The Democratic party does not need anti-Israel candidates.  Sestak also has almost no chance of winning (Nate Silver puts it at about 8%).  That's fine--I'd much rather devote my resources to pro-Israel Dems in tough races.  That you would rather tilt at windmills supporting anti-Israel Dems is very telling too.

                            I don't at all say that Jan Schakowsky is anti-Israel and she's supported by J Street.  People in Chicago will tell you she's more pro-Israel than Rahm Emanuel is.  Russ Feingold isn't anti-Israel and he's supported by J Street. A  J Street endorsement doesn't make one de facto anti-Israel.  However, a J Street endorsement doesn't de facto make someone pro-Israel either, especially when they have an anti-Israel voting record.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:40:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So let me get this straight (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Randall Sherman, Mets102

                            Sestak votes for Israel 99.9% of the time but he votes to support a measure talking about ending the humanitarian blockade of Israel and because of that one issue you would toss him under the bus for a Republican. Very telling. Not only that, but you would say this:

                            The Democratic party does not need anti-Israel candidates.....That you would rather tilt at windmills supporting anti-Israel Dems is very telling too.

                            How is that other shoe tasting?

                            Here is a great article in the Jewish Journal

                            Those behind the smears have pointed to Mr. Sestak’s signature on a congressional letter earlier this year calling for an easing of Gaza’s blockade as evidence of his anti-Israel leanings. This too is nonsense.

                            The letter in question states: "We recognize that the Israeli government has imposed restrictions on Gaza out of a legitimate and keenly felt fear of continued terrorist action by Hamas and other militant groups. This concern must be addressed without resulting in the de facto collective punishment of the Palestinian residents of the Gaza Strip. Truly, fulfilling the needs of civilians in Israel and Gaza are mutually reinforcing goals."

                            This is exactly the message I heard repeatedly from high-level officials in numerous meetings in Israel earlier this month. In fact, many Israeli officials have been calling for adjusting the Gaza policy for months.

                            How is Bill Kristol doing these days btw?

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:52:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bill Kristol (0+ / 0-)

                            is not supporting every other Democratic Senatorial candidate.  I gave $1,000 to Jack Conway to help defeat Rand Paul.  Every Dem in a close race this year from Bennet to Reid to Manchin to Giannoulis is pro-Israel.  I have no quibbles with any of their support for Israel.  Do you support Bennet and Reid and Manchin and Giannoulis?

                            Plus, your smears of civil rights icon Alan Dershowitz are really sad.  He's one of the only notable names in the Jewish community to stand up to the Noam Chomsky and Norm Finkelsteins of the world.  Or do you support them too?

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:09:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Giving to Conway is a good thing (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            as is supporting other Democratic candidates.

                            As for this:

                            Plus, your smears of civil rights icon Alan Dershowitz are really sad.

                            Dershowitz has done some great things in his life but lately his hate and vitriol towards progressives threatens to destroy that. Further, I am not smearing Dershowitz at all he is doing it to himself. He is actively supporting Tea Party Candidate and Republican Joel Pollak. You must not be following this race very closely if you didn't know that. He raised $ 30,000.00 for Pollak.

                            As for this:

                            He's one of the only notable names in the Jewish community to stand up to the Noam Chomsky and Norm Finkelsteins of the world.  Or do you support them too?

                            Asking me stupid questions does your argument no good. Are you implying I would support Noam Chomsky or Norm Finkelstein? As I asked Tom J yesterday... Are you smoking crack? Of course I don't support either of them. But your position does seem to be supporting Kristol's Emergency Committee for Israel here and Im Tirtzu in Israel. Surely you don't support them, do you?

                            Is that why you are so upset with Jan getting money?

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:24:04 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Pollak was his student at Harvard Law (0+ / 0-)

                            If one of my prized students ran for Congress, I'd actively support them too.  Wouldn't you?  

                            I don't support Emergency Committee for Israel or ZOA or J Street or any other partisan advocacy group for Israel.  Support for Israel only works when it is a consensus position of the Jewish community.  That's why I support AIPAC.

                            As for what I'm implying you support, I just dont know.  Dershowitz has written book after book supporting a pro-peace 2 state solution.  Fuck, one of his books is entitled "Case for Peace".  If you oppose him, I don't know what the heck you support.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:31:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Answer: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            If one of my prized students ran for Congress, I'd actively support them too.  Wouldn't you?

                            Not if they were running as teabaggers, I would not. I have some very good friends who are conservative republicans. I would not vote for them for Dog Catcher but I would still be their friend.

                            As for this:

                            As for what I'm implying you support, I just dont know.

                            Sure you do, you just don't want to say it because you would mocked hard for it.

                            Dershowitz has written book after book supporting a pro-peace 2 state solution.  Fuck, one of his books is entitled "Case for Peace".  If you oppose him, I don't know what the heck you support.

                            Indeed in his past he has done some good things. But in the last year or so he has done this: Diary on Alan Dershowitz and Another diary on this race

                            He may have once been good but now he has turned.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:12:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dershowitz called out (0+ / 0-)

                            Jewish supporters of BDS.  Good for him.  If I had his kind of respect in the Jewish community, I would too.  As for supporting your student, we can agree to disagree on that, too.  In academics, you don't give good grades to the student you agree with.  You give good grades when you respect their thought process and analysis.  

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:31:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dershowitz went far beyond calling (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, Mets102

                            out supporters of BDS and you know this.

                            I call out supporters of BDS all the time, but, I am not the arbiter of what makes people Pro-Israel or not. Dershowitz called out the entire Israeli progressive movement.

                            Come on OSD be honest.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:44:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry for the double response... (0+ / 0-)

                            But I feel no need to support an anti-Israel Dem over a pro-Israel Republican just like I feel no need to support an anti-choice Dem over a pro-choice Republican.  Those are two issues I feel that strongly about.

                            Now, if there are two anti-Israel or two anti-choice people running, or two pro-Israel or two pro-choice people running, of course I support the Dem.  But the Democratic party is pro-Israel and pro-choice.  If a candidate departs from those two big pillars, I don't feel it is disloyal to depart from them.

                            To wit, I would have supported just about anyone over Marcy Winograd she had won her primary.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:14:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But Sestak isn't (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, Mets102

                            an Anti-Israel Dem so what's the point of that first paragraph relative to this conversation.

                            I tend to vote American issues first and Pro-Israel lower down the priority list. For President it is a big issue for me but for my local reps. not so much (BTW I happen to think Barak Obama is very pro-Israel). Today's Republican party has nothing that I could vote for and support.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:21:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We'll have to agree to disagree on that (0+ / 0-)

                            but Sestak's going to end up losing because he's not going to have the 90% Jewish support that Dems need when they want to win Pennsylvania.  And he's not going to get that for his opposition to Israel, whether you agree with it or not.

                            As for President Obama, his first year he was very shaky on Israel.  This year he's been much, much better.  It'll be interesting to see where he goes the next two years as he, in all likelihood, spends more time on foreign policy than he has the first two years.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:28:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't know (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            And he's not going to get that for his opposition to Israel, whether you agree with it or not.

                            What opposition to Israel does Joe Sestak have. I think I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is as Pro-Israel as they come. Voting for the Occupation in my mind is not Pro-Israel. It's not a matter of whether I agree with you or not, you haven't proven that Joe is Anti-Israel.

                            I am very Pro-Israel yet I also support that letter that Congressman Sestak agreed with. As Mets102 very correctly said: "One can be against Ha Memshalet Yisrael but can be very for Ha Medinat Yisrael". Given the fact that when I lived there I was active in politics as a delegate to the World Zionist Conference and as Foreign Student Representative to the Ma'arach. I would not question my caring for Israel.

                            You and I have very different views of how to keep Israel vibrant and true to the values it was founded upon.

                            And Pres. Obama in my opinion is great on Israel. The Cairo Speech was brilliant.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:40:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You have your view (0+ / 0-)

                            I respect it.  The mainstream Jewish community just doesn't agree with you.  And elections are where rubber meets the road.   Sestak is not going to get 90% Democratic support because of Israel.  That's because mainstream Jewish Dems don't agree with your definition of pro-Israel.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:43:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok I will tell you what (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            here is your platform...

                            What makes Joe Sestak anti-Israel. Just facts. Remember many in the Israeli political establishment support something along the lines of that letter. But one letter talking about continuing a military blockade and ending a humanitarian siege cannot make one Anti-Israel.

                            So what else has he done that is Anti-Israel?

                            Also:

                            That's because mainstream Jewish Dems don't agree with your definition of pro-Israel.

                            What do you think my definition of Pro-Israel is? Remember I have lots of Israeli friends and Jewish friends who maybe disagree with me but would never doubt that I am Pro-Israel. Can you expand on what you think my definition of Pro-Israel is?

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:50:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Facts (0+ / 0-)
                            1. He signed onto the Gaza 54 letter.
                            1. He rarely signs onto letters of broad support in Congress for Israel.
                            1. On the most important issue in the pro-Israel community, Iran sanctions, he was one of the minority of Democrats who refused to co-sponsor.  I note that Jan Schakowsky, Steve Cohen and Banney Frank (other J Street endorsed candidates and very liberal Democrats) all cosponsored this legislation.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:05:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok... those don't make him Anti-Israel. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            But on the following:

                            He signed onto the Gaza 54 letter.

                            I would have signed to as well. Apparently so would many the Government of Israel who promised to ease humanitarian restrictions and work towards ending the collective punishment of Gaza. Oh and before you even think about it. I am still for a blockade on military / military use items. I just see no reason why the average person must suffer.

                            He rarely signs onto letters of broad support in Congress for Israel.

                            Do you have numbers on this and reasons?

                            On the most important issue in the pro-Israel community, Iran sanctions, he was one of the minority of Democrats who refused to co-sponsor.  I note that Jan Schakowsky, Steve Cohen and Banney Frank (other J Street endorsed candidates and very liberal Democrats) all cosponsored this legislation.

                            That may be important to the Pro-Israel community but I am not sure how that helps Israel itself. Meanwhile for signing statements or co-sponsoring leg. he has done...

                            FOr the future he wants:

                            Continuing to provide robust military aid to Israel in the years to come;

                            Joe will monitor the conference for the FY 2010 foreign aid bill, the House version of which (that he voted for) contained $2.2 billion in security assistance to Israel. In addition to the 2009 emergency wartime supplemental bill, which provided $555 million in assistance and which Joe also supported, this fully funds the administration’s request of $2.775 billion for Israel to fulfill the second year of the 10-year US-Israeli Memorandum of Understanding signed in 2007.

                            Ensuring that Iran does not attain nuclear weapons (vb1 emphasis), as this poses a direct threat to Israel and would in all likelihood provoke a regional arms race

                            Given this it is pretty hard to see where he is Anti-Israel.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:17:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Its kind (0+ / 0-)

                            of sad that you look to his pro-Israel position paper instead of his years actually in Congress as evidence of his intentions.  Its irrelevant.  He's not going to win.  

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:20:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh really? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            Its kind of sad that you look to his pro-Israel position paper instead of his years actually in Congress as evidence of his intentions.

                            Why look here is his record:

                            http://joesestak.com/...

                            Whoops, I don't think you meant to have me bring this in now did you... Darnit, facts are such pesky things.

                            As for winning: Jack Conway while being a great candidate has not much chance of winning either. And yet you gave him $ 1000.00. If winning were the issue you just tossed that one. Still I haven given (not nearly as much as you have) to him and I feel it is money well spent.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:30:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Joe Sestak's actual Israel record (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, Mets102

                            http://joesestak.com/...

                            Sestak is Pro-Israel and Pro-Peace.

                          •  Say what you'd like (0+ / 0-)

                            he'd be, pretty instantly, the least pro-Israel Democrat in the Senate if he won.  He could be counted on to be the thorn in the side of the pro-Israel community when it gets 90+ Senators to sign broad pro-Israel letters.  Again, he's going down to defeat, its irrelevant.  But to reiterate, I will not shed a tear on this one.

                            By contrast, if Rand Paul beats Jack Conway I'll be pretty darn pissed.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:26:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            By contrast, if Rand Paul beats Jack Conway I'll be pretty darn pissed.

                            Be ready to be pissed. I like Conway and want him to win but, I don't see it happening. I will shed a tear (well not really but I would be sad) if BOTH Conway and Sestak lost. Republicans destroy our country. That is the most important thing to me.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:32:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have faith in Kentucky (0+ / 0-)

                            that the race will close.  Do I think Conway will win, in my heart of hearts?  Probably not... but could he get the race down to a couple of points and then get an election day miracle or two (rain in northern kentucky?).  Slim, but possible.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:40:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Joe Sestak knows the costs of war (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            and it just such a man who knows the value of peace.

                            That is who I want being a friend to Israel.

                            He has much more experience in foreign policy than  Wall St. Shill and Club for Growth President oppoenent, Pat Toomey.  Pat Toomey, is as far right as Santorum, if not more on some issues.  

                            So as hard as you might try in your quest to smear J-Street and its candidates, people are going to see through your attacks.  They'll do their own checking and see that Schakowsky and Sestak are good for America.  And that they also support Israel and the best path to insure its longterm survival and success.

                          •  I'm not smearing (0+ / 0-)

                            Schakowsky.  I just think there are better places to spend money, as she's got a slam dunk race in a year when there are very few slam dunks.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:46:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Go try the same tactics in other diaries (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, Mets102

                            diaries for Democratic candidates.  See how far you go without acquiring a bunch of HRs for repeatedly trolling.

                            You replied to the tip jar.  Your intent was clear.  You could've at least done the decent thing and posted just a reply comment.

                            I hope your antics today inspire people to donate to Schakowsky and Sestak.

                            Bonus, Kos has added Joe Sestak to its orange to Blue candidates.  Yesterday afternoon on, Kossacks raised a huge amount of money for Admiral Sestak.  Toomey would be a disaster for the Senate and for America.

                          •  I like this comment (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            You said:

                            So as hard as you might try in your quest to smear J-Street and its candidates, people are going to see through your attacks.  They'll do their own checking and see that Schakowsky and Sestak are good for America

                            OSD replied:

                            I'm not smearing Schakowsky.

                            So hmmmm I guess he is smearing Sestak - is that his point? The Admiral would be great for the U.S.A. As a side note he would be good for Israel as well but that is secondary as he is an American Representative.

                            Nice response though. Uprated.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 02:56:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't bring up (0+ / 0-)

                            Sestak.  You did.  I brought up 5 Democrats, 4 of which are in close races and 1 of which is my pet project.  I'm not contributing to Toomey or anything--I just have less than no love for Sestak and will not shed a tear when he loses.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:13:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Where did I say you brought up (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            Sestak? Can you provide me with that quote. I am full aware I brought up Sestak. All I said was that you are smearing Sestak and you seemed to admit it.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:22:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look (0+ / 0-)

                            Sestak isn't someone I'd actively campaign against.  That's saved for like the Jim Moran's of the Democratic party.  All I said was that I wouldn't shed a tear when he loses.  And that someone equates me with being Bill Kristol?  Give me a break.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:45:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree with you on that bigot Moran (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            But, you are being active in telling people not to support him or Jan. That is an issue I have.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:05:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the "him' I mean here is Joe Sestak. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:06:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Support Jan (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew

                            Her voting record is flawless.  I have nothing wrong with Jan.  But if you support Jan, do her more good by supporting any of the 75 or so Democrats running within 10 points of the Republican running.  That really shouldn't be a controversial proposition.

                            On election day, do you want to know that Jan won by 35 points instead of by 34 points?  Or do you want to know that Gabrielle Giffords won by .5% instead of lost by .5%?

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:08:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good to see you campaign against Dems (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            That pretty much tells me what I need to know.

                            And it should tell people to disregard both your opinion on the Schakowsky race and your opinon on Sestak.

                            Sestak supports the public option, voted to repeal DADT, strongly advocates for not cutting social security, has a thorough economic plan, one praised by President Bill Clinton and will work to keep jobs in America.  If you will not shed a tear over losing that, it is quite telling.

                            And like volley said, you basically now admitted you are smearing Sestak.  

                          •  Uprated (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            Sestak is good for America and as an added bonus he is strong on Israel. But, we live in the U.S. I would think we would vote for what is good for our country.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:40:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  me too (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Scioto, soysauce

                No need for a donut.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:54:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Soysauce.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                I do agree with Mets here, it was a diary hijack...and a coninutation of the OSD's "dicussion" of J street.    It was a deliberate ihijack.

                And they did jump the comment already here to do so.   They've been around quite long enough to know what would happen.  

                Sadly I am coninuing the threadjack by commenting.

            •  And if it is... (0+ / 0-)

              ...then so what?  Is J Street beyond reproach?

              The fact is they've been caught in multiple lies, some very troubling.  I thought J Street might have something valuable to contribute to how Israeli issues are discussed in Washington but their track record is hardly inspiring to date.

              If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

              by JPhurst on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:08:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Tipped if I could and (3+ / 0-)

      Rec'd... Apparently the Dershowitz/Pollak fans are a tad upset by this post. AIPAC must be bummed that you guys are doing so well.

      I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:49:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm glad to see J Street doing so well... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thebluecrayon

        I'm not completely J Street; still consider myself somewhere between AIPAC and J Street.  However, J Street has always had my heksher when it comes to being pro-Israel, and if J Street gives their heksher to someone as pro-Israel I accept it and consider that person pro-Israel on that alone.

        The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

        by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:53:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  As a Jewish American... (8+ / 0-)

    that is proud of my "sick addiction" to liberal values, I tip and rec this diary.  Sorry to burst Ms. Rubin's bubble, but I am liberal precisely because I am Jewish.  Jewish values such as tolerance, community, and helping those in need are liberal values.

    The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

    by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 09:27:37 AM PDT

    •  As a Jewish american (0+ / 0-)

      Or an American Jew, and one who remembers the day Harry Truman enabled the birth of a Jewish State of Israel, I TOTALLY support J-PAC! AIPAC was necessary, in its time, but it failed to be flexible enough to survive and that is why I embraced J-Pac when it began. Without a two-state solution AND - and that is the critical AND - the agreement of all Arab states to recognize a sovereign State of Israel - we are nowhere. AIPAC was incredibly invaluable at the beginning but they have failed to grow with the times.

      We must not let issues that can be resolved through negotiation be hijacked in the name of someone's notion of "purity" - there will be no Jewish State unless the two state solution is enabled.

      My proposal is a State of Israel recognized by ALL Arab countries living in economic cooperation with a Palestinian state on the west bank. Economic interdependence between the Palestinian state and Israel - along with recognition by ALL Arab countries is our best  hope of success.

      Just my 2 cents!

      •  Or while we're at it (0+ / 0-)

        the candidate Francine Shachter supports, Gabrielle Giffords.  She's in a VERY tough race, is great on Israel, and could use our support.

        "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

        by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:33:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Very well put, Mets. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      thebluecrayon, Mets102

      And that, from a Cubs fan!

      I'm in IL-09, where early voting is underway, and voted Tuesday for Jan.

      One cautionary note: I'm seeing a lot of Pollack signs up in places where I haven't seen R/AT (Republican/American Taliban) signs in previous Congressional elections, including heavily Democratic Evanston, and even one on my own block in Rogers Park! Such meshuggas!

      We can't let the bastards get away with that, so if you're in IL-09 get out and vote early: Cook County early voting info is here; Chicago early voting info by ward is here. (And don't forget to vote for Forrest Claypool for Cook County Assessor!)

      •  I wish I could rec. you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Railfan, Mets102

        but I don't have ratings for the next month. However, your point is well taken. We need to support Jan up and down the line. The crazy wingers are bringing the big guns (and the little ones as we see here) to either vote against Jan or have us not assure her of a win.

        Support for her is important. I am in CA and have already donated to her. Seeing the vitriol in her detractors and them trying to talk us out donating makes me want to donate.

        Go Jan!

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:01:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks, and here's some good news: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102

          According to the Always Indispensable Rich Miller, whose Capitol Fax Blog is a must-read for afficionados of Prairie State politics, Pollack is actually crowing about being down by 18 points!

          From Rich's post, I infer that Pollack released an internal poll showing Jan at 48 percent, himself at 30 percent. As Rich says,

          OK, so Schakowsky is under 50, but the guy is at 30 with less than three weeks to go. That’s a long way to move, baby.

          •  Thanks for the update (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            even more reason to support Jan in these last weeks.

            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:25:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes Chicagoans should all (0+ / 0-)

              donate to http://elections.nytimes.com/... this instead of Quinn or Giannoulis or any remotely competitive race.  Its a very good use of this community's power.

              What his really is, volley, is that J Street knows it is going to lose a ton of their endorsed candidates.  They endorsed a bunch of uber-safe seats like IL-9 so they could crow that their win/loss record isn't that bad.  The J Street lackey did a hit and run diary, but I suspect he'd even admit as such.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:34:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Not Jewish, never have been, (3+ / 0-)

    but Jan is one of the best representatives in IL, and if you're really committed to electing more and better Democrats, you're for fundraising so she can keep her seat.

    If you aren't, why not diary your candidate than bash J street or Jan? Better to get money for your candidate than take money away from her. Thanks. ---passional IL liberal

    On Sara Palin: "That woman...is an Idiot." -- Keith Olbermann

    by allergywoman on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:05:24 AM PDT

  •  From Nate Silver (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    psychodrew

    (he tweeted it 4 minutes ago):

    "fivethirtyeight
     
    It's just as stupid to spend time/money/energy on a candidate who has no chance of losing as one who has no chance at winning.
    4 minutes ago via web"

    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

    by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:26:56 AM PDT

    •  So what? .. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      thebluecrayon, Mets102

      is Nate Silver omnipotent?  Three months ago, it was assumed that Raúl Grijalva was a certain lock ... now .. not so much it seems

    •  This assumes that... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      psychodrew

      ...the purpose of giving the money is to effect the election.  I think J Street is trying to portray itself as nobly leading the charge to defend a congresswoman who is under attack from that nasty "Israel Lobby."  

      I get J Street's emails and I remember a while back they were fundraising for Donna Edwards, who is sort of an Exhibit A for who they support.  "Don't let them get our buddy Donna Edwards!  We got her back!"

      Yeah, as if Donna Edwards faces ANY credible opposition.  Real heavy lift there, J-Street.

      Same thing here.  It is less about needing the money to support Jan's re-election, and more about trying to juxtapose itself against Alan Dershowitz and AIPAC.

      If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

      by JPhurst on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:18:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Man, this must chap your hide. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, Mets102

        Pollak, Dersh, and the Emergency Committee are tossing everything at the wall to nail J Street, yet somehow they keep rolling along. They are relatively new they are going to make mistakes.

        Tell you what, you don't worry about Jan.. don't contribute. You are certainly free to do that. I however have and now as a result of what is being done here will again.

        The villification of J Street is getting fairly lame I would think you guys have better things to do with your time.

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:25:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have no doubt.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          psychodrew

          ...that J Street will continue to exist. The question is whether it will really be a "pro Israel - pro peace" organization or whether it will be an outlet to try to marginalize mainstream supporters of Israel within certain elements of the left.

          If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

          by JPhurst on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:46:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Or my preference, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            psychodrew

            option C, become a mainstream pro-Israel, pro-peace organization with someone credible like Robert Wexler or Alan Grayson at its head.

            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:50:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psychodrew

              ...my former option encompasses your Option C.

              The latest revelations, however, were very discouraging.  Precisely because they turn off mainstream pro-Israel supporters and turn on people who see J Street primarily as a vehicle to attack those same mainstream Israel supporters.

              If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

              by JPhurst on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:52:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is interesting, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, Mets102

                you said:

                Precisely because they turn off mainstream pro-Israel supporters and turn on people who see J Street primarily as a vehicle to attack those same mainstream Israel supporters.

                This is rubbish. I am a proud member of J Street. I don't want to attack you guys. I want to support Israel and Peace in the Middle East. It is you guys on the right that are on the attack. AIPAC does not represent my views, J Street does. Why shouldn't I support them.

                I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:56:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sorry to disappoint you.... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psychodrew

                  ...but I am not, and have never been, on the right.

                  Be a proud member if you want.  I see J Street as finding its way and, as a group in embryonic stage, susceptible to many directions and influences.  But there is no way you can justify them about lying that Soros did not give them money when you did.  Ditto for lying about whether they facilitated meetings with Goldstone.  

                  These episodes were both an embarassment from a substantive position as well as due to the fact that J Street was less than candid about itself.  And it is not just "the right" that has said this.  Plenty of pro Israel - pro peace writers said the exact same thing.

                  You can give them a mulligan if you want.  But at the very least recognize that it's a mulligan.

                  If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                  by JPhurst on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:19:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I am def. giving them (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    thebluecrayon, Mets102

                    a mulligan and I recognize that. They mishandled the Soros thing. They learned. This is how new organizations grow and learn.

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:26:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Fair enough n/t (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      psychodrew

                      If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                      by JPhurst on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:30:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  The flip-flop on Iran and the Goldstone thing (0+ / 0-)

                      were major fuck-ups too.  Until three major things happen, these fuck-ups will continue.  

                      One, they need to figure out where on the political spectrum they actually are.  As those who attended their convention said, the attendees, the presenters, and the organization, all seemed to have different agendas.  While I get that a new organization such wants to be 'anti-what's out there', they won't be an effective political organization.  

                      Two, they need a real leader.  Ben Ami is amateur hour.  They need a mainstream Jewish Democratic politician to run the organization.  No one--myself included--will have a quibble with the organization if Russ Feingold led it.  And Russ Feingold won't make the kinds of amateur mistakes they're making now.

                      Third, they need transparency re: their decision-making process.  I've read everything I can about J Street and I have absolutely no clue who decides what.  Is it their board?  If so, who appoints their board?  Is it Ben Ami acting by himself?  Is it the staffers?  I can tell you the process of who decides what for every mainstream Jewish organization and every mainstream political organization I've bothered to follow.  They can be opaque about their donors if we know who's running the show ideologically.

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:38:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  "...you guys on the right..." (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  thebluecrayon, Mets102

                  That's not fair. How many times have we tried to make the argument here that liberals can differing views on this issue.

                  Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

                  by psychodrew on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 02:46:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I have a feeling my definiton (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, Mets102

              of what constitutes "Pro-Israel", "Pro-Peace" differs from yours.

              I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:53:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Just want to point out the framing, too.. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                Both JPH and OSD have used the word "mainstream"...in an effort to frame J Street and you and those who agree with you as out of the mainstream and hence in error or lacking support.

                •  uprated... virtually (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mets102

                  Thanks capelza.

                  I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                  by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:03:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  And if you.... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psychodrew

                  ...ascertained the opinions of the Jewish community, from all political spectrums, you would find that this is generally the case.  I have colleagues who are holding out hope for J Street but know that it really is not there yet and is something of a disappointment.

                  I find your accusation of framing to be rather startling, since it is the other side that regularly pulls this trick.  They insist that groups like AIPAC and others, despite their broad based support from other organizations with similar broad based support, are actually some sort of cabal manipulating and distorting the playing field.

                  There is a hubris to this argument.  Basically "rational people would have to see things my way, it's just that the organizations and 'the lobby'  distort viewpoints."

                  If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

                  by JPhurst on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:25:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Its a term of art... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psychodrew

                  If you google "mainstream Jewish community" you get more hits than if you google "mainstream Christian community", "mainstream Muslim community", "mainstream Hindu community" or "mainstream agnostic community".

                  Given that there are a lot more Christians, Muslims, Hindus and agnostics than there are Jews, you should 'get' that the framing has greater significance and is not just a word that implies otherness.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 02:12:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  diary is totally (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thebluecrayon

    JACKED

    An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

    by mattie53 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 11:42:14 AM PDT

  •  Here's a good HuffPost (0+ / 0-)

    article on Jan's support of AIPAC and Israel.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

    by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:39:18 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for supporting Schakowsky. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hikerbiker, Mets102

    She's been a good Democrat and deserves our support.  

    Too bad the diary got highjacked  by one person who has been intent, in recent weeks, to throw any and every smear at J-Street.

    •  uprated. (4+ / 0-)

      Man I wish I could just click on the bubble and you could see the little plus. But in 29 days I can do that.

      I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 01:25:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've been reading this back (0+ / 0-)

      and forth and I don't get how this is a highjack. A representative of J-Street came here to urge Kossaks to donate to a candidate that oldskooldem argues is in no danger of losing her seat.

      Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

      by psychodrew on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 02:43:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I see it as a highjack for several reasons (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hikerbiker, Mets102
        1. OSD has posted his/her comment as a reply to the tip jar.  As you can see that comment devolved into fighting that took over most of the comments in the diary.  OSD should've just posted a regular comment.  Look at the comments and the proportion of comments.  If OSD just wanted to make the point, s/he could've posted a few comments (not to the tip jar) and left.  But instead it looks like trolling.  OSD wouldn't get away with this behavior if it weren't considered an Israel diary.
        1. OSD has a history of lying about J-Street and smearing the organization.  S/he has recently gotten several HRs for doing just that.  
        1. Every Democrat is in danger in an election year like this and Schakowsky is a good Democrat, whom we should support.  If the base doesn't reward congress critters for voting the right way, what incentive do they have to do just that?
        1. OSD has now go on to lie about one of our best and finest Democratic candidates, Joe Sestak.  OSD claims Sestak isn't pro-Israel, when that couldn't be further from the truth.  This is the position of groups on the right, like Republican Jewish Coalition and Bill Kristol's Emergency Committee for Israel.  These talking points OSD is using in this instance and in his/her attacks on J-Street are not Democratic ones, they can easily be found on the right.  OSD's attack on Sestak are shameful.
        •  Uprated... This virtual uprating (4+ / 0-)

          can be fun and is much more fulfilling than hitting a box.

          I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:41:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The way you're handling this (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            psychodrew, hikerbiker, Mets102

            speaks volumes of you.  

            I asked you this offline, but does this mean you can't see hiddens anymore?  Within a diary that is, not by going through "Hiddens Comments."  You should know bork has now uprated that "hasbarachicks" comment.

            •  That guy (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psychodrew

              Bork is ridiculous.  If you uprate volley enough, he can see hiddens, he just can't HR.  Its a weird quirk in the system that allows me to see hiddens but not do anything about them.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:56:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks OSD. At least we can agree on one thing. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                Please reconsider your stance on Sestak.  I really think he's one of the best Dems we have.  Look at his record.  There must be some other issues you support him on.  He is endorsed by votevets, Mayor Bloomberg as well as many unions.

                •  Oh (0+ / 0-)

                  I support him on many issues and oppose Toomey on many issues.  But since I can't donate to every candidate, and I don't live in Pennsylvania, I'm going to support those candidates I most agree with.

                  The other comment, on the fact that he's going to lose in part because he's not going to get 90% Jewish support, is that of a dispassionate observer, not the statement of an advocate for his defeat.  No, I won't be sad when he loses.  He will lose in part because of a lack of Jewish support at historical levels.  But I'm not advocating his defeat like I would Jim Moran, for instance.  On a scale of 1-10 on Israel, Reid and Murray and Giannoulis and Conway and Manchin are all, by word or deed, 8's, 9's or 10's.  Maybe Sestak is a 5 or so.  Jim Moran is a 2 (but an anti-semite).  Dennis Kucinich is a 1.  Cynthia McKinney was a 1.  Those are the type of candidates I'd actively work to defeat.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:19:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This is progress (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102

                    and I'm happy to hear that you do support him on other issues.  I agree on McKinney and Moran.  Moran has a blatantly antisemitic comment on his record.

                    I believe Sestak is much higher than a 5 on Israel.  And Mayor Bloomberg, a strong Israel supporter, agrees with me.  Senator Schumer has also endorsed Sestak.  Not sure if Dems ever get 90% support.   I know nationally, it's about 60-80%, depending on the election.  Not sure about PA.

                    •  Democrats (0+ / 0-)

                      haven't gotten 60% of Jews in any national election in a long, long time.

                      Obama got 78%
                      Kerry got 74%
                      Gore got 79%
                      Clinton got 78% (3 way race) and 80% (3 way race).
                      Dukakis got 64% (but Dukakis way underformed Dem averages)
                      Mondale got 67%
                      Carter got 45%

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:35:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  All true... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      thebluecrayon

                      And I think it's usually in the 75% range or so that we vote Democratic.  Of course, I live in the one city in America where Jews are considered an essential part of the GOP base in mayoral elections.  Jews usually vote 65%-70%+ for Republican mayoral candidates the past 20 years or so.

                      The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                      by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:36:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That's only (0+ / 0-)

                        because Dems nominate David Dinkins and similar type candidates and Republicans nominate relative moderates.  An Anthony Weiner type would get an overwhelming percentage of the non-Orthodox Jewish vote.

                        "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                        by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:40:17 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Of course he did (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psychodrew, thebluecrayon, Mets102

              and Team P was all up in arms supporting Simone. The river of crap is deep and wide.

              I don't know if I can still see hiddens, but that's ok, I hear the boom came down on Team P so... there seems to be justice.

              Meanwhile... uprated, of course.

              I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:02:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You want to add balance to the universe? (0+ / 0-)

                Get liberalcanuck to post on IP again.  Or bfskinner.  Or democratic luntz.  Or the list goes on and on... By a mixture of shouting louder than anyone else, a mob mentality, and HR abuse, they've managed to drive the fast majority of the pro-Israel side from the Israel diaries.  As a result, they're more one-sided than ever.

                "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:10:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I understand. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mets102

                  It is shameful how people try to and have succeeded in chasing people out of these diaries.  I think DL and BF have other things going on that contributed to those decisions.  But there is an even longer list of people who simply post less because of these attacks.  The same is now happening to myself, Mets and volley.  I was told this morning how I should leave because of what the person said was something indistinguishable from hasbara. It's not right.  

                  Now will you support Sestak? :)

                  •  LOL bc but (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    thebluecrayon, Mets102

                    I am not going anywhere and neither is Mets (or so he says).... I won't leave "the field" to them so they can run free to turn DKos into another site spouting propaganda. Someone has to stand up to it.

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:24:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  There are so many... (0+ / 0-)

                    who have left or post less frequently.

                    Hasbara just means p.r.  You can't tell me with a straight face that the indistriguishable legions of ISM-type folks on here aren't engaged every day in PR.  I mean what is a flotilla besides PR?  What is turning every stone thrower into a saint besides PR.  What is the faux indignation over a response to terrorism besides PR.  Or their incorrect recitation of history to justify their POV.

                    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                    by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:27:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I do know what hasbara means, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Mets102

                      literally, it means "explanation."  But the hasbara accusation is against community rules unless it's accompanied by significant proof.  There is no such proof in my case.  And yes, one of the known meanings of hasbara is a PR policy by Israel.  

                      The accusation though, implies a poster is either for pay or not for pay posting Israeli-government talking points.

                      I'm not going to comment on others' activities with regards to PR.  What I know is that I disagree with their opinions and positions on Israel and whether Israel should exist as a Jewish state.  Jews have a right of self-determination, one they excercised in 1948.

                  •  I'm not going anywhere... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    thebluecrayon, hikerbiker

                    This is the leading liberal Democratic blog.  I'm a proud liberal.  I'm a proud Democrat.  And I'm proud of the fact that our party is pro-Israel, something very clearly stated in our party's platform.

                    It can get offensive and disheartening at times, particularly when certain people remark that anyone who defends Israel is Hasbara, but despite that, it only makes me even more determined to remain here.

                    I've said it before and I'll say it again, I might not like what Memshelat Yisrael (the Israeli Government) is doing, but I love Medinat Yisrael (the State of Israel).  When I speak up, it is out of love for Israel, much the same way as when I spoke up against the Bush Administration it was out of love for our country.

                    And btw, if you're ever so inclined, drop me an email :-)

                    The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                    by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:35:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  DemocraticLuntz? (4+ / 0-)

                    The same DemocraticLuntz who called an Arab kossack "Abdou Lieberman" (abdou being a well-known Hebrew slur against Palestinians) or who tried to pass himself off as a Palestinian in order to mock us? That same DL? Am I supposed to feel bad that such racist filth isn't posted here anymore?

                    I'll let you in on a little secret, thebluecrayon. You're not the only ones being driven from this blog. The same people whining like little children about "Team P" and their tactics are the ones who call Palestinians on this blog Hamas supporters and are uprated/defended by others.

                    They're the same ones who continuously accuse us of being opposed to peace and of being anti-Semitic because we don't agree with them. Your side is doing as much of a good job driving people away as anyone else around here. My inability to handle the racist filth that comes from your side is a reason why I've been generally avoiding these threads.

                    And I'll let you on another secret. If you want to complain about how hostile comments and uprates are for you, it might make you look less like a hypocrite if you didn't go around uprating comments accusing "Team P" of doing bad things.

                    Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                    by unspeakable on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:40:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The guy blogs (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      psychodrew

                      still http://hatthief.blogspot.com/  He's very clearly a Democrat active in the United States.  I don't know that the same can be said of alot of the other posters here.

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:44:12 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  You know, (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      livosh1, Mets102

                      Yes things are hostile for myself and others and I'm going to say it.  And even though I've stuck up for you at certain times, you were absolutely nowhere to be found when I was accused of being a "hasbarachick."  I spoke up for you when I last saw an attack on you for not supporting two-states.  I spoke up because of you, when I saw that you were upset by an attack that Barghouti wasn't Palestinian.  I apologized to you after Yom Kippur, and you didn't even bother to respond.  I also spoke up against the person who accused soysauce of spewing venom.  When was the last time either of you did that for me?     This isn't supposed to be a one-way street.

                      I know we're not the only ones being driven from the conversation and I've even asked if you were okay when you weren't here because I saw what happened.  You can check with hiker on that.  I've never said otherwise and didn't in that above comment, but you took my comment on my experience that way.

                      Your uprates aren't always stellar either with regards to attacks.

                      I was pointing out to OSD that DL may have other reasons for not being here.  Whatever you read into that and my understanding that I've noticed how many pro-Israel posters are literally hounded off the site, be my guest.  I make no excuse for DL's racist comments.  That does not however excuse how he was hounded before he made those comments.  BF, on the other hand, was one of the fairest posters around.  He had to remove himself from these diaries because they probably weren't good for his health.  He isn't the only poster who has that particular set of circumstances.    

                      •  The thing about (5+ / 0-)

                        avoiding these diaries is that I'm not in them all the time. So I have no idea what comments you're talking about.

                        DL was "hounded" (whatever that means) because of his racist comments. I only posted one example of his bullshit. He regularly denied Palestinian suffering. He was an asshole through and through. If I did indeed play a role in driving that racist away from this site, then good!

                        Bottom line: I'm not asking you stick up for me. I don't care if you do. I care more about how the IDF is practicing how to create an ethnically pure Jewish state. I care more about how the Israeli army continues to subjugate and oppress Palestinians in occupied Palestine.

                        I'm just saying if you all feel it's worth your time to go on meta rants about how people are being mean to you, try to keep the hypocrisy in check by avoiding bullshit generalized statements like "Team P is doing this and that" and wishing that racists, who made this site uncomfortable for Palestinians and Arabs, would return.

                        Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                        by unspeakable on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 06:04:37 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And I'm saying if you feel the need (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          livosh1, Mets102

                          to comment on my rants, maybe you should be more careful of your uprates on Team I or whatever designation.

                          If you don't care.  I suppose it's not worth my time.  Good to know.  I thought it was the decent thing to do, but you can't even acknowledge that.  You complain about getting hounded off and yet, even when you have support from those with whom you disagree, you blow it off and treat it as if that's nothing.  Meanwhile, I'm asking for some support and you couldn't give a crap.  Did you bother to think that your attitude contributes in part too?

                          It would be nice to see some compassion from you since a similar thing is happening to you.  But I guess not.

                          As you like to say, whatever.

                          •  You know full well (3+ / 0-)

                            that I've uprated your comments when you've defended, and that's acknowledgement/thanks for doing that. Don't pretend that I haven't acknowledged your comments.

                            I didn't see the comments you're talking about so I don't know how I'm supposed to be responsible for not defending you.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 06:27:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My comment was not in general (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, Mets102

                            as I don't do those things for the thanks or recognition.  My comment was in reply to your comment above, specifically:

                            Bottom line: I'm not asking you stick up for me. I don't care if you do.

                            I will take you at your word that you did not see the "hasbarachick" comment nor the other one, which was a direct personal attack.  Both last night.  

                            I don't expect you to care more about these things than Palestinians being hurt and dying.  And as I've said before, I'm willing to listen and learn.  But that doesn't mean that none of my positions will be hurtful to you or to soysauce.    Sometimes people just disagree.  And sometimes, that disagreement is hurtful.  

                            At the same time, it's not nothing and I can multitask in my compassion.  Over the two years I've been here, I've seen so many people leave, go silent, post less, even stop identifying with Democrats.  The one person who posted s/he has moved right because of these diaries and I've barely seen him/her since.  That person spoke out in pain with a really honest family story and was met with some harassment and ridicule.  I saw it happening and tried to reach out.  Listen, that's not nothing.  Much as people want to make it out as that Jews here should ignore the online antisemitism and ignore feeling unwelcome, because it's selfish to care about those things in the midst of what's happening in I/P.  Some think that's just the cost of activism.  I strongly disagree.  If one's activism strategies cause another minority to feel unwelcome on a progressive blog, that's sad irony.  It can be very disillusioning.

                            You probably won't check in because you said that you won't respond further, but it's out there.  Think what you will.

                            You have complained, in your words, meta, of the negative effects this dialogue has had on you.  What if I had responded to you with the words you used to me?  Just think about it.  When I did respond to one such comment of yours, I wished you well.

                          •  For the last time, (4+ / 0-)

                            I have no idea what comments you're referring to. I've never seen the word "hasbarachick" before (I assume it means someone who engages in hasbara?), and I don't know what "the other one" refers to. You've chosen not to link to anything you've referenced, not the offending comments nor the apology you gave me (for what I don't know). So how am I supposed to know what you're talking about?

                            As for what I said, I meant that I don't care whether you defend me or not. I've said this to you multiple times. I don't expect you to defend me, and if you don't, I don't consider it a personal affront. It doesn't mean I'm not grateful when you do, it just means I don't think you owe me anything, just like I don't owe you anything, beyond simple respect/politeness.

                            In the big middle paragraph, you're clearly referring to alizarin and Karmafish. Karmafish engaged in a year-long campaign of anti-Arab and Islamophobic commentary, which was nicely summarized by blueness. He now blogs over at one of Horowitz's hate sites.

                            alizarin was a person who upon hearing that Sen. Schumer had said this:

                            ....Hamas in Gaza is being squeezed and people there are doing very badly. Not only because Israel has blocked off the border and not let anything into Gaza, and I support Israel in doing that, and it may be tough on the Palestinian people, but when they vote for Hamas they are going to have to suffer the consequences.

                            stated that she agreed, and thanked the Senator for expressing her opinions well.

                            Now, given that I've seen some of the most dehumanizing shit posted here about Palestinians, why is it that I've never supported crimes against innocent Israelis or Jews, why is it that I've never resorted to antisemitism? Why is it that you've never descended so low as to call for crimes against Palestinian civilians or engaged in deliberate hate speech?

                            The same people who engaged in hatred against me complained about how alienated they feel by hatred against them and I'm supposed to feel bad or guilty? Why? A good rule of thumb is if you want sympathy from me, don't go around saying you want to starve my family members.

                            As for this comment:

                            Much as people want to make it out as that Jews here should ignore the online antisemitism and ignore feeling unwelcome, because it's selfish to care about those things in the midst of what's happening in I/P.

                            You know better. I never said ignore anti-Semitism. I posted my first comment, not because you guys were complaining about how you feel unwelcome and are being pushed out of this website, but because at the same time you were yukking it up about the machinations of "Team P." Well, how is the use of the phrase "Team P" above any different from "hasbarachick" accusations?

                            This idea that we're all acting in concert to do something sinister? Seriously? That's bullshit, and you know it. And if you're going to engage in this sort of alienating and counterproductive crap while complaining about it when it's directed at you, don't be too surprised when I or someone else calls you out on that hypocrisy.

                            It doesn't mean that your complaints are wrong, it just means you're doing the same thing.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 07:07:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I just said I will take you at your word (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, Mets102

                            that you didn't see the comments:

                            I will take you at your word that you did not see the "hasbarachick" comment nor the other one, which was a direct personal attack.

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            ...in the comment to which you replied.  So I'm not sure why you're saying "for the last time..."

                            Since you did not see the  comments, I didn't see any point in linking to discuss it further here.

                            The Team P attacks are not like hasbara attacks because they don't entail accusations of working for or on behalf of the Israeli government or another foreign government.  Hasbara attacks accuse Americans of being loyal to the Israeli government.  Not to mention, it assumes people's thoughts on the issue aren't genuine, but cynically, that they are simply disseminating talking points from someone else.  Those attacks leave a shadow of doubt on posters.  And since it's impossible to prove a negative, there's no way of combatting that.

                            There was a negotiation a long time ago, between vb and Aunt Martha as to what to call the groups here.  I thought that's when the terms team I, team P came out but maybe I'm mistaken on that.   I was in and out of the I/P diaries at that time and wasn't following those "negotiations" carefully.  For myself, I see the team attacks as often the less serious.  The individual attacks are most vicious.  But it's a change I could potentially make.  Is there anything from what I've said that you or others reccing you could perhaps take into account going forward?  Normally, I wouldn't bother asking in such a manner, but after the elections, I have to make some decisions about posting here, for reasons other than I/P.  I'd like to know.

                            As for you caring, that's the way I had taken your comment about me being silent on the eve of Yom Kippur.  But, I went back just now and found a reply from you (from a couple days later) I hadn't seen.  

                            At times, I do care.  Not all the time, not even most of the time.  But some things hit a nerve.   An example would be, (you weren't there)  being attacked for pointing out Holocaust analogies and being told that means I want to censor and control the conversation.  And that it means I'm more interested in PR for Israel than anything.  It would be nice to have had some support from the other side, considering the no Nazi analogies rule.  And, in other cases, the numbers pro-P versus pro-I are quite lopsided, so often when attacks do come, it's in a swarm or with a swath of uprates.  I've seen that drive off posters before.  

                            As for this:

                            You know better. I never said ignore anti-Semitism. I posted my first comment, not because you guys were complaining about how you feel unwelcome and are being pushed out of this website, but because at the same time you were yukking it up about the machinations of "Team P." Well, how is the use of the phrase "Team P" above any different from "hasbarachick" accusations?

                            No you haven't, regarding antisemitism, but many others have.  I was speaking in general with regards to that, a general, toxic atmosphere, that helps chase people off.  To me, as I said, that's not nothing.  It's not people dying, but it's not nothing.  The #1 way hate is spread in 2010 is through the internet, often on mainstream sites.    But as to you and your deciding to respond to my hasbara comments in this way, my point in bringing up how I responded to you when you made analogous comments, was that it pretty much seems like kicking a person when they're down.  And in this case, I'm dead serious about how toxic things have been for me.  If you want to address, as they come up, when I'm doing something wrong, be my guest.  And if you can't muster up some compassion right now, then see my prior point about not kicking.  That's why I did not even consider bringing up things you've done when you made similar comments.

                        •  Like this comment (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          livosh1, arielle, Mets102

                          wherein pro-Israel posters are in general called "apologists for Israel"

                          He's now clarified and (12+ / 1-)

                          Recommended by:
                             Rusty Pipes, zannie, capelza, jon the antizionist jew, borkitekt, callmecassandra, Tom J, Celtic Merlin, unspeakable, soysauce, Fire bad tree pretty, remi
                          Hidden by:
                             livosh1

                          explicitly stated that "Daily Kos" does not, contrary to your rather egotistical assumption, refer to you or other apologists for Israel at this site. It refers to the Daily Kos admin. Shouldn't you now remove your HR and apologise for accusing him of "lying"?

                          The Heathlander, New Left Project

                          by heathlander on Fri Sep 24, 2010 at 06:54:49 AM EDT

                          http://www.dailykos.com/...

                          That's what's called a backhanded insult.  On the one hand, Tom wasn't referring to "[volley] or other apologists for Israel at this site."  On the other, people who disagree with you are "apologists for Israel."  

                          And I do care about what's going on.  We just disagree on many things.

                          •  Yep... rec.'d again (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, arielle, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            and again nicely said.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 06:34:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, (5+ / 0-)

                            this was all a part of the hijack of my diary about how a Palestinian was killed by a Jewish terrorist. I remember it well.

                            First of all you weren't in the diary itself, so there is no evidence that this is at all targeted at you.

                            Second, I see nothing insulting about the term "apologist for Israel." It is an accurate description for people who continue to defend and providing the reasoning behind Israel's actions and policies.

                            And this was a reply to a person, who in addition to accusing me of being a Hamas supporter (I trust exactly what incident I'm talking about), has also defended the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people in 1947-48 by saying

                            The early Yishuv didn't want a hostile population sitting inside it's borders.

                            How is this not apologia? How is the defense of crimes against Palestinians, including my own grandparents, not apologia?

                            This will actually be my last response here. I really have nothing else to add. Palestinians, when not being murdered, are literally being driven from their homes onto the streets by terrorists with the support of the Israeli government, and we're arguing about who said what to whom and why and how.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 06:41:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And here we go again - willfull misrepresentation (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, Mets102

                            .... as you and Team P did at the time.

                            I didn't defend anything or make apologies. I stated a fact. Whether you like it or not that was a statement of fact.

                            The Yishuv made a calculation regarding a population that would have been hostile to it had they been a part of the state. Right or wrong that is what happened.

                            Do I think Israel should have pushed people out? No. Do I think that people left on their own to flee fighting, yes.

                            Here is the whole quote:

                            Then yes some people were ethnically cleansed. But given the loaded nature of that term I don't use it. I know you want me to say that because in your tiny brain that would be me admitting to Jewish Supremacy - But that is not why that happened. The early Yishuv didn't want a hostile population sitting inside it's borders. And even you would admit the Palestinian Population at the time was not high on the Jews winning the War.

                            Tell me how that is not true. Exactly how is a statement of truth apologia?

                            I would appreciate it if you didn't lie about me - as that is what you are doing here when you say this:

                            How is this not apologia? How is the defense of crimes against Palestinians, including my own grandparents, not apologia?

                            You might want to add the whole context and do you dispute that the Palestinian Population at the time would have accepted Jewish rule? You conveniently left that part out of your deception.

                            That is not making an excuse for a war or it's aftermath that is an explaination of what happened and what people were thinking.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:00:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  rec.d (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        livosh1, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                        Nicely said.

                        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 06:05:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Don't forget the same DL who got suspended (5+ / 0-)

                      not for his comments in I/P but for, if I remember correctly, his crude sexual remarks.    He was warned by MB about it on more than one occasion.    The same DL that made a very odd comment about a Vietnamese not being able to win in a heavily Black district..and when asked what he meant by that crack disappeared.  The same DL who sauntered into  a diary about Indian alcohol issues and made an ass of himself?  The same DL who said no Jewish girl could be blonde with a small nose, that they were probably "Aryan" converts...

                      DL still can not receive gift subscriptions.   I don't know exactly what happened six months ago, but there it is.   But it didn't happen in I/P.

                      I hope he matures out of his crude misogyny (or any misogyny)...and comes to realise that his own casual bigotry towards others is as unacceptable as anti-semitism.

                      Also this:

                      Zannie was socking?   What a profoundly stupid and pointless thing to have done.   She got off lightly with a one month suspension.   I really am aghast that she would do that.  Shame on her.

                      Now that everyone  has "won on the internet" can we get back to the actual subjects?

                      •  Agreed... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        capelza, unspeakable

                        Zannie was socking?   What a profoundly stupid and pointless thing to have done.   She got off lightly with a one month suspension.   I really am aghast that she would do that.  

                        Shame, though. I rather took to remi.

                        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                        by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:57:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I've met zannie (0+ / 0-)

                        spoken with her and corresponded with her.  Remi's style does not look like zannie's.  Zannie claims that she has no socks, including remi.  I have seen no good reason to disbelieve her.

                        "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

                        by Rusty Pipes on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 05:27:59 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  In fact.. (7+ / 0-)

                          ..zannie's "style" is guite similiar to "remi's".  

                          No one is saying zannie is not a real person.  Zannie also claimed that she never made the comments blueness quoted here (which I saw myself, and later were deleted or scrubbed.)

                          Anyway, it's admins call.  And of course they can see more than we can.  This reminds me of when Keith Moon insisted the sock who wrote the sexist diary wasn't his. and Karmafish defended his denial.

                        •  I would think that if she had a sockpuppet... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          capelza, Fire bad tree pretty

                          she would be banned like others, like Keith Moon. This is first case I've heard where a user with a sockpuppet was only suspended.

                          Interesting...

                          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                          by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 07:13:53 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No it's not... (5+ / 0-)

                            ..some have been suspended for sockpuppetry, others have been banned.

                            From the FAQ:

                            Penalties for Sock Puppetry Though there is no officially articulated penalty for 'Sock Puppetry', there are many recorded instances of banning for the offense.

                            Did you see this comment of mine?   You or Rusty can always write MB himself if you don't believe me.

                          •  For.. (5+ / 0-)

                            ..those who don't know what they're talking about, or have a bad memory:   Keith Moon outed someone with his sockpuppet, an automatic banning.

                            And there are many instances in the history of Dkos of owners of uncovered socks not getting banned for the infraction.

                          •  Curious... (0+ / 0-)

                            Was this necessary?

                            those who don't know what they're talking about, or have a bad memory:

                            Or was it a response under an assumption that I was attacking you?

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:22:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just a guess, but maybe she (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, blueness, Mets102

                            was talking about newer users who don't Keith Moon from a hole in the ground?

                          •  I apologize.. (4+ / 0-)

                            .cmc.   I do not have a lot of patience these days on these threads.   I do not really post much at all here, even though it probably seems as if I do. :)

                          •  It's a really tough atmosphere (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, sofia, Mets102

                            Don't know the backstory on why you don't post that much.  But from the past few days and from other points in time, I can relate.

                            It's nice that you pop in though.

                          •  I've noticed that you don't post as much. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, MBNYC, blueness

                            You should post more - you and blueness - but I get the frustration and lack of patience.

                            We don't really learn anything anymore, do we?

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:52:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I still.. (4+ / 0-)

                            ..learn things.  I don't read as much around the blogs, papers as I used to, and haven't read a book on the ME in a long time, so I do pick up info here.   Reading Heathlander, jon, soysauce, sorta, unspeakable and some others still is often enriching and a learning experience.

                          •  I just realized (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, Mets102

                            that if someone from J-Street looks over these comments, oh my!  I'm sure it would encourage them to post more, shall we say.  

                            Next time, hopefully, they won't post the day after a massive flame fest.

                            Still, compared to earlier today, this is interesting conversation.  If not for them, then for me.

                            I really would love to see some more Israelis posting here on the topic, including those representing the differing views on the left there.  Much more range, than I think gets portrayed here sometimes.

                          •  p.s. Did you finish the book? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, Mets102

                            And would you recommend it?  I'm still looking for a good audio book.

                          •  No I haven't.. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueness, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            ..as soon as my head hits the pillow, I've been falling asleep the past few nights.   No it's not a book/books I'd recommend.  It's the series of books that the HBO series True Blood is base on; silly stuff. ;)

                            I just ordered a book at Amazon My Happiness Bears No Relation to Happiness that soysauce recomendred, and I'm looking forward to reading that.

                          •  See sofia (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia

                            we have some common ground after all.  True Blood is good, good, good shit.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Sat Oct 16, 2010 at 11:27:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  KM outed someone? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, Mets102

                            I think had stopped paying attention to him by that point and his diaries were always roaring, raging fire-type flame-fests.

                          •  In a pretty.. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueness, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            ..quickly deleted (by admin) diary written by his sockpuppet.

                          •  I'm thinking about this (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, Mets102

                            and I think it's one of those things I heard in passing and then promptly blocked out most memories of Keith Moon. :)

                            In fact, thinking back on some of my comments then is no fun.

                          •  Yeah... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            I simply commented that I found it interesting. And I do since I've never seen other masters of sockpuppetry merely suspended. curmidgiana(sp) was banned (and she actually had a good explanation). keith moon was banned (should've been dismissed sooner for the racism). zannie's not banned. Been here a while, never seen anything like it.

                            Interesting.

                            It wasn't you who made the decision to suspend zannie - for whatever reason. And I have no cause to question what you were told.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:39:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Here's.. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, blueness, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            ..someone who was suspended for four days for the offense. :)

                            I think there are many factors that go into the decision on the penalty for that offense.

                          •  Thank you... (0+ / 0-)

                            Quite unawares, as I've said.

                            I think there are many factors that go into the decision on the penalty for that offense.

                            The factors admins use in taking (or not taking) disciplinary actions frequently don't make sense.

                            This one didn't either.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:17:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Keep in mind.. (4+ / 0-)

                            disciplinary actions frequently don't make sense.

                            This one didn't either.

                            ..that curmudgianna was banned before MB took over as CModerater, and there was a lot less consistency.  Then again she went on to write her "Goodbye Cruel Jews" diary at MLW -- I think you were aware sometime before that occasion I thought her antisemitic.

                            MB, I think, I doing a good job and is being as fair as is probably humanly possible.  Personally I would have preferred zannie being banned, rather than the month suspension, but it wasn't my decision to make.  Otoh I was not in favor of the banning of Tom.

                          •  Yeah, (0+ / 0-)

                            I was done with curmud after that MLW diary. Thing is, she did as mattes and karmafish had done - got frustrated, got too personal, got too involved, became resentful and lost it. The level of hatred in that diary couldn't have been hidden over the number of years she was on dkos. Perhaps if she'd shown remorse...but that's neither here nor there.

                            As for MB, gotta disagree. But it ain't my show.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:24:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  to the contrary, (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, capelza, sofia, Mets102

                            that sort of "level of hatred" is "hidden over [the] number of years [people are] on dkos" all the time. That's one of the very frustrating things about this place. You see people dancing at the edge of who they are all the time. They just work like twelve bastards not to come right out and fully express it, because they don't want to be exposed, and thereby offed. And this is hardly a phenomenon limited to I/P: the larger site is festering with racists who try with varying degrees of success to conceal who they are.

                            Dkos and MLW didn't transform curmudgiana into a Jew-hater. That's what she is. Shergald was always an anti-semite—dkos didn't create that. Mattes, once she got to pff, revealed herself to be a freaking believer in ZOG: that's always who she was. "Frustration" with dKos didn't cause goldenrulejoe to opine that he wished that Hitler had killed all the Jews—he brought that here. Similarly, this site did not transform deaniac and moon and karmafish into racists: that's who they are. Ambrose Burnside was always a five-star bigot who envisioned himself as an "anti-Muslim crusader"—he just never said it until after he was banned and began running his zombies in here.

                          •  I don’t recall goldenrulejoe. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueness

                            But ambroseburnside?  Please.  One knew he was a bigot when he first began posting in I/P.  keith moon, doodad and deaniac were flashing neon signs as well.  The reason they were around for so long was due to enabling, like what occurred with fugue.  There was also Chuckman and nomoreimperialism, recognized as bigots from their very first post. And a few others, claiming to be "pro-P" who came immediately after the Lebanon-Israeli war, Cast Lead and the flotilla massacre.

                            Curmud and karmafish were different, though. Both caught us by surprise - this includes you. I don’t recall either of them expressing the level of hate that brought them down. While anything is possible, I don't believe such hatred laid dormant during all those years of anonymous blogging on a controversial, heated issue like I/P where fighting and losing one’s temper is common practice.

                            Dkos and MLW didn't transform curmudgiana into a Jew-hater. That's what she is.

                            Hatred isn't black and white, blueness. It would be easier if it was.

                            For instance, some hatred is born of traumatic circumstances and experiences. Like the traumas that children in Gaza and Sderot experience. Or the traumas that Blacks and Gays experience.

                            Then there's the hatred that's encouraged, people taught to hate, taught to believe in their own superiority. Or maybe they hate just to have a cause. Really can't do much with this one; difficult, if not impossible, to understand as it's utterly irrational.

                            And then there's the hatred born of frustration, anger and resentment built up over time from combustible interactions with others. Curmud and karmafish would fit here, imo. They personalized their interactions to such an extent that both believed they were being targeted. It wasn't true, but that really doesn't matter. They believed it. And so, they lashed out, went for the jugular, went for what hurt the most, an act of self-defense as jacked-up as that is. Hell, both of them said as much.

                            And you're right that racism and bigotry isn't limited to I/P.

                            I'm sure you're familiar with the tension cropped up between the LGBT and Black community. I've seen people who - to my knowledge - had never posted (or enabled) racist or bigoted comments...until recently. Either all of them were always bigots or many are lashing out due to certain events and circumstances that have occurred. I'm going with the latter, for the most part.

                            To be clear: I am not justifying racism. I'm not defending it. I'm not making excuses for it. I'm not trying to create sympathy for curmud and karma. And no one's responsible for them. I only seek to understand it, if it's possible. Viewing hatred in black and white terms will not push it back.

                            As for this...

                            You see people dancing at the edge of who they are all the time. They just work like twelve bastards not to come right out and fully express it, because they don't want to be exposed, and thereby offed.

                            ...why spend time worrying about what people might say? Dealing with out of the closet bigots is draining enough. No need to add to your burdens. Easier said than done - I know.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Sat Oct 16, 2010 at 01:29:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hmmm. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, MBNYC, Mets102

                            What do you know, cassandra.  I've just agreed with you twice in this thread.

                            This may never happen again, you realize? ;)

                          •  You're human. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, MBNYC, blueness, thebluecrayon

                            We agree more than we disagree on numerous matters.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:13:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Really? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Mets102

                            I honestly had no idea, cassandra.  

                            We agree more than we disagree on numerous matters.

                            Interesting.  Are we talking about I/P matters or domestic, political issues?  I thought you pretty much have disdain for most of my opinions. ;)  That's said in a light-hearted tone, since there's no tone smileys.

                            Well, you learn something new every day right?  Recced.

                          •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            ...unless you back Palestinian suffering, the occupation, the blockade, the ethnic cleansing and dispossession and the discrimination, then yeah, we agree more than we disagree on I/P.

                            It's your priorities that concern me and the amount of energy expended into them.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:42:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ps.. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            ..it should be pointed out that the four day suspension was for a creating a sockpuppet for the purpose of uprating the person in that thread I linked to.   The just created sockpuppet never posted, and first ratings were in that thread.

                          •  except (5+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, capelza, sofia, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            that the "explanation" of ol' curmudgiana, a.k.a. "Goodbye Cruel Jews," was a lie. She wrote Hunter that she was abandoning one UID for another. She lied. She ran her original handle, and her sockpuppet, Miss Mannered, simultaneously. She further claimed that as curmudgiana she was "only finishing up old conversations." Also a lie, as this thread demonstrates.

                            She is a liar. She is a Jew-hater. She is banned.

                          •  First... (0+ / 0-)

                            I wasn't inquiring about a reinstatement. And I certainly wouldn't have done so after the Goodbye Cruel Jews diary which I condemned as well.

                            Second, iirc she said that she wrote Hunter and did not wish to go public with it. Considering that Hunter has always been a thin-skinned, duplicitous wonderless dick, I'd accept her word over his. Now, one may argue that she handled the change over unwisely - finishing up conversations - but that's about it. And if you have evidence, like a confession, that she'd planned to run both accounts for all eternity then I've no problem conceding the point.

                            Third, and most importantly, nothing you've said has any relevance to my earlier post. My commentary was in regards to banning sockpuppets. And she was banned for sockpuppetry, not anti-semitism.

                            And how are you?

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:11:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  she (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, sofia, Mets102

                            offered her various explanations over at pff, and all of them were proven to be lies. She lied first that she did not run the accounts simultaneously. When that was exposed as a lie, she lied that she only retained the curmudgiana UID to "finish up conversations." That too is a provable lie. These lies are exposed as lies in the links I offer above. I don't know what Hunter has to do with it—she is proven a liar based on her own acts and her own lying statements about them. It doesn't matter whether she "planned to run both accounts for all eternity" or only for the weeks she ran them—she lied, she is a proven liar, and she wasn't supposed to be running a sockpuppet at all. You can condemn Hunter as "a thin-skinned, duplicitous wonderless dick" all you want, but she is a proven liar and a proven Jew-hater, and, so far as I know, he is not. Maybe you have links proving otherwise. Further, it wasn't Hunter who went public with their conversations—she did, in the process of deploying her lies. Finally, my response was indeed on point to your remarks about banning sockpuppets, as you had opined that she offered a "good explanation"; in truth, her explanations were lies. How am I? Disappointed in your attitude towards this proven liar and proven Jew-hater. But then, nobody's perfect. : /

                          •  She also.. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, blueness, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            ..after the MM account was banned created another sockpuppupet, paxmonger, who she established was a young Jewish male student, although she was a late middle aged white woman of Christian heritage.   It got banned in one of Zemblan's diaries for insisting Ahmadinejad hasn't denied the Holocaust with a number of other other users.

                          •  First things first... (0+ / 0-)

                            Disappointed in your attitude towards this proven liar and proven Jew-hater. But then, nobody's perfect. : /

                            What attitude? That I don’t hate her? That I don’t come to the same conclusions as you wrt the circumstances of her banning? Or do you believe I’m defending her hatred?

                            As for Hunter, I assumed you were suggesting that Hunter denied curmud contacted him about abandoning her old UID.

                            She wrote Hunter that she was abandoning one UID for another. She lied.

                            And I still don't see how the links prove she lied about the circumstances of her banning. Perhaps she did or perhaps she just got stupid. You believe she lied. Cool. But, I don't.
                             

                            Finally, my response was indeed on point to your remarks about banning sockpuppets, as you had opined that she offered a "good explanation";

                            My point was in regards to the arbitrary penalties for sockpuppeting. This - "she had a good explanation" - was nothing more than an aside and clearly so. And since the penalties are arbitrary, it really doesn't matter anyway, does it?

                            You know, I have much respect for you, but we might not agree on everything and everyone.  There are a few you call friends here and I can't stand them - I'll just leave it at that. But I don't hold it against you even when you defend them and I'm not disappointed that you count them as friends. You're owed that much, don't you think?

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Sat Oct 16, 2010 at 11:13:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i think (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, sofia, callmecassandra, Mets102

                            both things are true: she got stupid—that's why she was banned—and then, embarrassed by her stupidity, she lied. Even when links prove, as they prove here, that she lied. I'm sure she originally intended to abandon the curmudgiana nick and go on to Miss Mannered, which is what she told Hunter she would do, but she just wouldn't let go of the curmudgiana handle, and after she ran the two identities simultaneously for some weeks, as my links show, he banned her. Her cover-up lie, which was subsequently echoed on this site by her defenders, that as curmudgiana she was just "finishing up old conversations," is belied by the third link I posted, which shows her in a thread where, even as she is beating off accusations as Miss Mannered that she is another user, she comes into a new conversation as curmudgiana.

                            The "attitude" I reference is that you seem reluctant to recognize that her stories are proven in these links to be falsehoods. I have respect for you, too, as you know. And I hope that if anyone were to prove on this site that any of my friends were liars, that I wouldn't argue against that, or would at least remain silent. But I'd prefer to drop it, as I don't want to get into a quarrel with you over this woman who's been gone from here for three years.

                            The only reason I spoke up in the first place is because most of the people in these threads weren't here then, and I believe that her story that she had "a good explanation" for her sockpuppetry to be manifestly untrue; provably untrue; and I did not want people not here then to believe it was somehow true. Same as the line that shergald was banned because he "offended Markos' Jewish lawyer," and the line that the jhritz bannings were part of some ultra-clever calculated "Zionist plot" to rid the site of "pro-P" posters. I know those untruths are out there, still believed by some active in these threads, and if I see them come up here, I'll knock them down, too.

                            I detest false history. Which is why, as the events recede in time, and somebody decides they want to come in here and claim that deaniac and karmafish and moon and burnside were shown the door because of some nefarious "anti-Israel" proclivities of the site moderator, well, I'll shoot that shit down, too. Because that's what their line is. And it too is demonstrably, provably untrue.

                          •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, blueness

                            I'll only say one last thing on curmud and I'm done cause I don't want to fight with you either.

                            The "attitude" I reference is that you seem reluctant to recognize that her stories are proven in these links to be falsehoods.

                            Why would it be reluctance? I'm not friends with curmud, we haven't spoken in years. She became an embarrassment, insulted her Jewish friends and made it difficult for the rest of us. Iow, I'm not her defender, I just accept her explanation noting the stupidity in her efforts to figure a way out unnoticed. I don't see her actions as malicious or as an attempt to get over. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

                            Just don't see it as you do.

                            Have a good one, blueness...

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Sat Oct 16, 2010 at 02:29:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ot.. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueness

                            ..just checking to see if you got the two emails I sent you yesterday.   No rush for a response or anything, but since your most recent landed in my spam folder I thought maybe my responses went into your spam folder as well. ;)

                  •  This was supposed to be addressed to you (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    callmecassandra

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    I posted it under unspeakable's comment by mistake.

                    I just want you to see that DL is not some poor little thing that was driven away by the mean, mean "team P"...a term I hate, just as I hate "team I"..this is not a sports contest.

          •  Now you're making us jealous. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thebluecrayon, Mets102

            "We wanna uprate, toooooo!"

            :)

            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

            by hikerbiker on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 10:57:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Since I get to respond (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          psychodrew

          to posts that say OSD 9 times...

          1.  I was the second comment in a diary that went totally unnoticed for 10 minutes.  I didn't think it would devolve into this.  
          1. I defend my comments about J Street, and as has come out in the last three weeks, it is J Street that repeatedly lied about their original donors and ties with Goldstone.
          1. Look, I agree with this one totally.  I was just making that point that Schakowsky is in the 5th safest district for a white Democrat in the entire country outside of California.  If Democrats lose this seat, we don't deserve to be a majority party.
          1. Please point to my lie about Sestak.  Volley asked for reasons why he wasn't pro-Israel.  I gave 3 reasons.  Just because someone on the right is saying something similar to what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm wrong.  

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 03:56:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Okay (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Paul in Berkeley
          1. What does replying to the tip jar have to do with it? Is this there some protocol about replying to the tip jar of which I'm unaware?
          1. I probably don't know OSD's history as well as the rest of you. I have seen stories about Soros's funding of J Street and something about facilitating a meeting with Goldstone and Congressional Dems. Is there something else OSD has written? And should OSD's previous comment history influence how the comments in this diary are judged?
          1. I don't understand what this has to do with whether or not OSD highjacked the diary. Good Dems should be rewarded and OSD never said they should. J Street posted this fundraising appeal and OSD pointed out that this Dem isn't in any real danger and that the money is best spent on Good Dems who are in trouble. The base rewards Good Dems by re-electing them. That's the reward.
          1. As I mentioned in another thread, I and a couple of other Israel supporters have tried to argue that liberals can have a range of opinions on the I/P issue. If somebody spends time at Daily Kos, then I don't doubt their progressive values because they have a different point of view here. For the record, I don't agree with the Bill Kristol attack on Joe Sestak. I think it's BS. But there are Democrats who share that view. I don't think it's fair to say that OSD's views are right wing because Bill Kristol agrees. I can't count the number of times I've been called right wing because I thought that Israel was justified in stopping the flotilla and Liz Cheney agrees with me.

          It just seems to me that for some reason a bunch of people are upset with OSD and his/her comments are being interpreted in the worst possible light. Again, I don't see how this was a highjack. The reply was on topic. And, I would add, that this diary was written by a representative of a political organization, not Joe Shmoe private citizen. That, in and of itself, should allow for greater scrutiny.

          Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

          by psychodrew on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:08:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm kinda okay with it... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Paul in Berkeley, psychodrew

            I'd rather debate volley on what the American Jewish community should do vis-a-vis Israel than engage in idiotic debates about one state theories that are never going to happen.

            I'm happy to be the lone wolf in the debate.  I'm happy for your support too.  But to the extent that a J Street diary actually involves dailykos's mission of more and better Democrats, I'm happy we've had this debate.  All of the idiotic flotilla or Rachel Corrie diaries in the world won't elect a single additional Democratic.

            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

            by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:14:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Drew... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thebluecrayon

            Look at the time stamp on my first comment in the diary:

            As a Jewish American... by Mets102, Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:27:37 PM EDT (7+ / 0-)

            Now compare this to the time stamp on the comment that I donutted for being a hijack attempt:

            Why don't you just by oldskooldem, Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 12:30:14 PM EDT (4+ / 1-)

            It was 2 1/2 minutes after I commented to the diary itself, and yet he posted to the tip jar in a direct attack on J Street.  It was patently obvious that the intent was to derail the diary.

            The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

            by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:26:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

              there was a single comment in the diary after 10 minutes, something I noted in my response.  I posted the second comment after 10 minutes.  Now tell me how the 2nd comment after 10 minutes could possibly be a diary hijack.  What could I have been hijacking?

              I note the diarist has engaged in yet another hit-and-run diary, so even the tip jar comment did not get to him.  

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 04:29:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I'm just not getting it. (0+ / 0-)

              I don't understand how replying to the tip jar makes a difference. His comment was sharp--a sharp criticism of the author--but it wasn't off topic. What exactly do you mean by highjack? When I read highjack, I think about an attempt to derail the conversation. That doesn't appear to be what happened here.

              Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

              by psychodrew on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 05:38:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  He was replying to the tip jar... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                thebluecrayon

                to jump ahead of my comment and divert it away from the PA Senate race and continue with his attacks on J Street.  OSD clearly had no interest in the actual content of the diary, but rather in simply throwing the kitchen sink out there at J Street.  Look, for example, at his repeated attacks against Admiral Sestak, on top of his calling Jeremy Ben Ami names.

                It was clearly intended as a hijack of the diary, rather than as purely substantive criticism.  If it was the latter, he would have commented directly to the diary given that there was already such a comment.  Instead, he decided to jump the tip jar.

                The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 05:43:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are making that (0+ / 0-)

                  inference based on where OSD placed the comment. Do you really think that comment would have gotten less attention if he/she had replied to the diary?

                  OSD's comment began with a rather snarky criticism, but it wasn't off-topic. And OSD may have wanted to draw more attention to his/her comment than yours, but that is not a diary hijack.

                  Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

                  by psychodrew on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 05:55:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I would have been less likely to donut... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    thebluecrayon

                    if I even donutted at all.  This isn't a troll diary, so posting the attack in the tip jar was pretty clearly a hijack attempt.  Also, OSD called this diarist a hit and run diarist on two occasions (here and here), however we know that public figures, posting in their public capacity, often just post the diary and then do jump into comment.  In that sense, they are different, and there is a different expectation of them, then us non-public Kossacks.  Take, for example, Alan Grayson.  When he diaries here no one criticizes the fact that he does not comment in his diaries.  The reason:  He's diarying in his public capacity.

                    The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                    by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 06:00:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Sometimes my brain is working... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  thebluecrayon

                  way too quickly combining with quick typing, meaning that I screw up what I mean to say :-)

                  What I should have said is:

                  divert it away from the IL House race and continue with his attacks on J Street

                  Sorry about that.

                  The Hope of 2,000 years, To be a free people in our land - Hatikvah

                  by Mets102 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 06:09:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It was a post (0+ / 0-)

                    from a J Street lackey about an Illinois house race.

                    My "hijacking comment" discussing J Street in one sentence and the Illinois house race in the rest of the comment.  Completely on topic.

                    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                    by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 08:27:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This is a Congressional race... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...not an Illinois House race.  

                      My guess is that at least 50-60% of Pollak's votes come Election Day will be coming from voters who can't stand Schakowsky and/or her husband and their political wheeling and dealing locally, not her stand on the issues.  (I would be among this number had I not moved out of the district four years ago.)  I know this confuses Kossacks from outside the Chicago area who are unaware of the internal political battles that have simmered here (involving Schakowsky and her ex-con husband) for the past two decades.  But they do exist.  Pollak will be used to waken Schakowsky for the real battle, which will be in the 2012 Democratic Primary (that is unless the US Attorney discovers that she or her husband have really done something stupid, which is always a possibility in this town).

                •  My comments (0+ / 0-)

                  on Sestak were a direct response to Volley.  I didn't bring Sestak up.  But if someone else brings it up, in the words of Sarah Palin, "you betcha" am I going to defend myself.

                  Diaries with two comments where one of those comments directly addresses the subject of the diary in most of the comment--that just ain't a hijack.  What happened after is the result of me responding to people.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 08:26:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102
            1.  I thought it was considered poor form to do that, especially if one is disagreeing with the diarist and intent on carrying on an argument.  Some people consider it poor form in general to respond to the tip jar like that, but I've seen some disagreements there.
            1.  OSD's history is relevant in determining intent to disrupt and whether or not it's an intentional smearing/trolling of J-Street.
            1.  I have to go back to my last point about this.  Now my rep is probably in a safe district.  The rep rarely even has to do much advertising.  Really safe.  But in a year like this year, when even Barney Frank is in danger, anything can happen.  Candidates still need money to remind voters to go out and vote.
            1.  You have a good point, that yes there is a range.  I'm generally pretty tolerant of that range.  But Joe Sestak is not, by any stretch, anti-Israel and you'd probably be hard-pressed to find a significant amount of Dems, of any stripe, to agree.  Saying that Joe Sestak is anti-Israel is a lie and a smear.  Look at his record, he's supported Israel, actually more than some people here would like.  That one article I linked to above is from the National Jewish Democratic Council.  

            OSD should've not replied to the tip jar.  Yes, there would've been an argument, but it would've been slightly different.  The one, previous comment of his/hers about Avigdor Lieberman was not right and I seriously hope he reconsiders his/her views on the matter.  Also, s/he should stick to debating J-Street and Jeremy Ben Ami on their opinions, not on their character.  The "pinocchio Ben Ami" attacks do not help anything.  I think J-Street should have someone respond to at least some comments.  That's my opinion, but I also know they're not the biggest organization and they've got a lot on their plate right now with talks faltering.

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