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The question of money is seeded through the debate over education, in several ways. This week I want to focus first on the way money most immediately factors in the current political debate; namely, where is the money behind the push for charter schools coming from?

Answer: To a significant extent, the money for charter schools is coming from Wall Street, and in particular from hedge fund managers. Consider:

Mr. Petry, 38, and Mr. Greenblatt, 52, may spend their days poring over spreadsheets and overseeing trades, but their obsession — one shared with many other hedge funders — is creating charter schools, the tax-funded, independently run schools that they see as an entrepreneurial answer to the nation’s education woes. Charters have attracted benefactors from many fields. But it is impossible to ignore that in New York, hedge funds are at the movement’s epicenter.

“These guys get it,” said Eva S. Moskowitz, a former New York City Council member, whom Mr. Petry and Mr. Greenblatt hired in 2006 to run the Success Charter Network, for which they provide the financial muscle, including compensation for Ms. Moskowitz of $371,000 her first year. “They aren’t afraid of competition or upsetting the system. They thrive on that.”

Hedge fund managers may be better known for eight-figure incomes with which they scoop up the choicest Manhattan penthouses and Greenwich, Conn., waterfront estates. But they also dominate the boards of many of the city’s charters schools and support organizations. They include Whitney Tilson, who runs T2 Partners; David Einhorn of Greenlight Capital; Tony Davis of Anchorage Advisors; and Ravenel Boykin Curry IV of Eagle Capital Management.

The Tiger Foundation, started by the hedge fund billionaire Julian Robertson, provides a large chunk of financing for several dozen charters across the city. Mr. Robertson’s son, Spencer, founded his own school last year, PAVE Academy in the Brooklyn, while his daughter-in-law, Sarah Robertson, is chairwoman of the Girls Preparatory Charter School on the Lower East Side.

The Robin Hood Foundation, the high-profile Wall Street charity founded by Paul Tudor Jones II, a legendary hedge fund manager, considers charter schools “right there at the top of our list of priorities,” said Marianne Macrae, a spokeswoman.

Or the recent $20 million contribution from Goldman Sachs Gives to the Harlem Children's Zone.

These are the people who ruined our economy, but suddenly we're supposed to think it's a good idea to turn them loose on our schools?

Or, moving away from Wall Street, consider the fact that one of the producers of the pro-charter movie Waiting for Superman is Philip Anschutz, owner of the Weekly Standard and funder of anti-gay campaigns and an intelligent design think tank. Again, are we to believe that his political projects are innocent?

And this isn't just some long-term project to privatize public education. There's short-term profit in it, as well. NY Daily News columnist Juan Gonzalez explained on Democracy Now:

There's a lot of money to be made in charter schools, and I'm not talking just about the for-profit management companies that run a lot of these charter schools.

It turns out that at the tail end of the Clinton administration in 2000, Congress passed a new kind of tax credit called a New Markets tax credit. What this allows is it gives enormous federal tax credit to banks and equity funds that invest in community projects in underserved communities and it's been used heavily now for the last several years for charter schools. I have focused on Albany, New York, which in New York state, is the district with the highest percentage of children in charter schools, twenty percent of the schoolchildren in Albany attend are now attending charter schools. I discovered that quite a few of the charter schools there have been built using these New Markets tax credits.

What happens is the investors who put up the money to build charter schools get to basically or virtually double their money in seven years through a thirty-nine percent tax credit from the federal government. In addition, this is a tax credit on money that they're lending, so they're also collecting interest on the loans as well as getting the thirty-nine percent tax credit. They piggy-back the tax credit on other kinds of federal tax credits like historic preservation or job creation or brownfields credits.

Gonzalez lays out how it works in Albany, NY:

In Albany, which boasts the state's highest percentage of charter school enrollments, a nonprofit called the Brighter Choice Foundation has employed the New Markets Tax Credit to arrange private financing for five of the city's nine charter schools.

But many of those same schools are now straining to pay escalating rents, which are going toward the debt service that Brighter Choice incurred during construction.

The Henry Johnson Charter School, for example, saw the rent for its 31,000-square-foot building skyrocket from $170,000 in 2008 to $560,000 last year.

The Albany Community School's rent jumped from $195,000 to $350,000.

(Via Open Left)

In short, education reform is a good cause. Experimentation is good -- and some of the best charter schools today have experimented in what could be valuable ways. But the push, coming from Wall Street and the extremely wealthy, for this specific form of charter schools, for this specific way of funding them, is part of both short-term and long-term drives for profit that will accrue to the wealthiest while weakening the middle class. The question is not whether we should back away from the cause of education, or the cause of education reform. The question is in whose interests it should be done and who should most strongly influence the outcomes.

Two other huge questions of money play in the education debate. What difference does money in the schools make to educational outcomes? The public debate is sort of ridiculous -- we hear, on the one hand, that traditional public schools couldn't work no matter how much money you threw at them, but on the other hand so many of the things we hear as positives about charter schools come from additional funding. Neither set of claims stands up to the complexity of the issue. For instance, there's the 4,100 student traditional public school in Massachusetts recently featured in the New York Times for its extraordinary turnaround in the course of a decade, today outperforming 90% of Massachusetts high schools. And there's the tens of millions of dollars lavished on the Harlem Children's Zone and the so far mixed results of its schools. But then again, as School Finance 101 recently asked, if money doesn't matter, why do private independent schools spend so much more than traditional public schools?

Obviously, money in schools matters. The thing is, we don't know enough -- not nearly as much as people all over this debate would have us believe -- about where and how it matters. Is it small class size, or teacher pay (and if so, merit pay or tenure), or computers in the classroom, or extended school hours, or or or?

The thing is, and it can't be emphasized enough, there's a clear area where money and things related to it matters overwhelmingly in educational outcomes. It's just not in the schools and too often it falls entirely out of the public debate: the biggest factors in student success are outside the classroom. Richard Rothstein of the Economic Policy Institute puts this in the context of the economic crisis:

Consider the implications of this catastrophe for our aspirations to close the black–white achievement gap. The national unemployment rate remains close to an unacceptably high 10%. But 15% of all black children now have an unemployed parent compared to 8.5% of white children. If we also include children whose parents have become so discouraged that they have given up looking for work, and children whose parents are working part-time because they can’t find full-time work, we find that 37% of black children have an unemployed or underemployed parent compared to 23% of white children. Over half of all black children have a parent who has either been unemployed or underemployed during the past year.{v} Thirty-six percent of black children now live in poverty.{vi}

The consequences of this social disaster for schools are apparent, and include:

Greater geographic disruption: Families become more mobile because they can no longer afford to keep up with rent or mortgage payments. They are in overcrowded housing; they often have to double up with relatives in apartments that were already too small. Children have no quiet place to study or do homework. They switch schools more often, fall behind in the curriculum, and lose the connection with teachers who know them well enough to adapt instruction to their individual strengths and weaknesses. Inner-city schools themselves are thrown into turmoil because classes must frequently be reconstituted as enrollment rises and falls with family mobility. Even the highest-quality teachers cannot fully insulate their students from the effects of this disruption.{vii}

Greater hunger and malnutrition: When more parents lose employment, their income plummets and food insecurity grows. More children come to school hungry and/or inadequately nourished and are less able to focus on schoolwork. Attentive teachers realize that one of the best predictors of how their students will perform is what they had for breakfast, if anything at all.{viii}

Greater stress: Families where parents are unemployed are under greater psychological stress. Such parents, no matter how well-intentioned, often become more arbitrary in their discipline and less supportive of their children. Children from families in such stress are more likely to act out in school and are less able to progress academically. The ability to comfort and support such students may be a more important indicator of a teacher’s quality than her students’ test scores, which may still be lower than the scores of students coming from stable and secure homes.

Poorer health: Families where parents lose employment are also more likely to lose health insurance.{ix} Their children are less likely to get routine and preventive health care and more likely to miss school days because of illness. They are less likely to get symptomatic treatment for illnesses like asthma, the most common cause of chronic school absenteeism. Children with asthma, even when they attend school, are more likely to come to school irritable, having been up at night with breathing difficulty.{x}

Recession isn't the only time those factors are at play -- it's just a time when they're at play for more people. Until we incorporate inequality outside the classroom fully into the debate on education reform, the improvement we want to see will be out of reach.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 04:59 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Thank you!! I've been banging this drum since (23+ / 0-)

    I read Gonzalez. Money and the privatizing of public education budgets is more vampiresquidism.

    •  Watch out... (13+ / 0-)

      ...these guys are showing up on school boards all over the country. What a big surprise when the district decides to spend its money on their charter schools.

      Kipp is particularly aggressive in stacking school boards.

      •  Charters: worse racial, ethnic, income divide (8+ / 0-)

        The Class Divide

        Class and ethnic segregation were occurring in school districts long before charter schools appeared.But according to a UCLA study, "Choice Without Equity," which was released in February 2010, the charter movement worsens the racial, ethnic and class divide in most of the country. The large number of white students enrolling in Chico-area charter schools is a trend seen throughout California and the western United States.

        The UCLA study also shows that in Butte County, in 2008, white students made up 81 percent of the charter school population and only 67 percent of the traditional school population.

        "We found that charters were acting as havens for white students," said co-author Genevieve Siegel-Hawley, a research associated at the School of Education's Civil Rights Project. The study brands the charter movement a "civil rights failure," in part because of what authors sometimes call "white flight."

        Changes in class and culture at Chapman and Chico Country are at the heart of the charter school divide. Throughout the Chico Unified School District, teachers and parents worry that many of the 10 local charter schools are "skimming" to attract students who are the best prepared and who have parents who can help in the classroom and in raising funds.

        The "Superman" Myth

        •  Exactly. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          divineorder, NWTerriD

          This is a movement to re-segregate schools and cement the right/wealthy gains by depriving American youth of an equal opportunity for a good education.

          The hard data shows that income and racial/ethnic disparity goes up when charter schools take over.

          This is a war and we are losing.  

          One book I recommend is that by Diane Ravitch.  She used to be George H.W. Bush's Secretary of Education and supported charter schools but then had a change of heart and now opposes them because, get this, the data showed they were making our society worse off.

          Thank god there are still people in this country who actually look at facts and change their position instead of yelling louder.

          Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

          by maxschell on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 09:21:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Does Obama support charter schools? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          divineorder, NWTerriD

          If he does, he needs to deal with this data.

          Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

          by maxschell on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 09:22:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  An old friend was on a KIPP board (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MediaFreeze, NWTerriD

        Either he is really cynical or he's in total denial that charter schools have a selection process (overt or not) that pretty much guarantees that their success rates eclipse those of public schools.

        We had an ongoing discussion about it, but I could see that he just wasn't willing to acknowledge that one simple fact which of course skews every statistic he threw at me.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter S. Thompson

        by SNFinVA on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:30:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And he is cynical... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MediaFreeze

          and in denial?  He is on the board for goodness sake and you are accusing him of not knowing what he is talking about, my goodness.

          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

          by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:38:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Was (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MediaFreeze

            Was on the board. Drank the kool-aid I guess....or should I say made the kool-aid.

            And I wasn't making any accusations, either, but rather was pointing out what I considered to be somewhat obvious.

            LOL

            ;oP

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter S. Thompson

            by SNFinVA on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:57:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obvious in what way??? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Linda Wood, ManhattanMan, citydem

              I live in a district with over 100 charter schools, this counseling-out phenomenon is new to me.  In fact, I've only heard it within the past few weeks on this blog.  It started out with people saying charters "cherry-picked" until that was proven false.  Now it has moved to an accusation of "counseling-out."  I've yet to see one thing outside of people's anecdotal, at best, statements that this occurs.  Care to show anything verifiable that conclusive shows that charters counsel out?

              the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

              by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 08:01:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Respectfully: maybe you should read some (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NWTerriD

                mission statements, admissions requirements, etc.

                Limiting class size (selection process), holding lotteries (selection process), requiring parental involvement (selection process), dropping kids who don't perform to expectations (selection process), dismissing children with behavioral problems (selection process) and so on and so forth, are all means by which charter schools can end up with the most promising students.

                When exactly was 'cherry picking' proven false? It is alive and well.

                Don't get me wrong, I'm open to the idea of alternative learning environments, but to attempt to compare public and charter schools without considering the fact that that you're comparing apples to oranges is, in my opinion, not helpful at all.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter S. Thompson

                by SNFinVA on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 08:45:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Where to even start... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Linda Wood, ManhattanMan, citydem

                  so the charters are supposed to not limit their size to the capacity.  And public schools don't have selection processes or boundaries that make sure only a certain type can attend?

                  As soon as you provide a sourced link that shows that charters are dismissing kids due to behavior (psst - public schools do, too), we can debate the issue.  I've read a study where 70% of charter school administrators state they wish more parents were involved.  In many of the charters in my city the parental involvement requirement is to attend two meetings per year.  I've never heard of a kid being kicked out because a parent didn't attend but you are free to provide something sourced to rebutt this.

                  the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                  by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 08:52:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Apples and Oranges (0+ / 0-)

                    Thanks for tacitly acknowledging that charter schools do have selection processes.

                    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter S. Thompson

                    by SNFinVA on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 07:40:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Here ya go (0+ / 0-)

                    Attrition rates are apparently pretty high at KIPP schools. And because they receive private funding they aren't compelled to fill vacated slots.

                    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/...

                    http://www.sfschools.org/...

                    http://www.eric.ed.gov/...

                    Again, apples to oranges.
                    Thanks for the exchange.

                    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter S. Thompson

                    by SNFinVA on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 08:12:44 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You do realize what this means, right? (0+ / 0-)

                      In contrast, Miron explains, "The lower performing, transient students coming from traditional public schools are not given a place in KIPP, since those schools generally only take students in during the initial intake grade, whether this be 5th or 6th grade."

                      You do realize that the study also says that on average many of the students that enroll in KIPP are on average lower than their peers that do not enroll and stay in public school, right?  

                      the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                      by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 09:59:28 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

                        They are referring to KIPP and their intake policies, not public schools! Don't cherry pick quotes without the full context!

                        "According to Miron, "While it may be true that attrition rates for KIPP schools and surrounding districts are similar, there is a big difference: KIPP does not generally fill empty places with the weaker students who are moving from school to school. Traditional public schools must receive all students who wish to attend, so the lower-performing students leaving KIPP schools receive a place in those schools."

                        In contrast, Miron explains, "The lower performing, transient students coming from traditional public schools are not given a place in KIPP, since those schools generally only take students in during the initial intake grade, whether this be 5th or 6th grade."

                        I have made my point. Thanks. Have a nice day.

                        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter S. Thompson

                        by SNFinVA on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 03:32:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  The CREDO study... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  citydem, princss6

                  ...which so many love to cite, dismisses the "cherry-picking" theory.

                  "For communities in which charters exist, recent polling shows a majority of citizens and parents are sufficiently informed about charter schools to express an opinion, suggesting consistent penetration with respect to charter school familiarity.

                  Further, the presumption of a positive selection bias may be speculative for other reasons. It implies that parents of Traditional Public School students do not themselves exercise choice as to where their students attend school."

    •  LET THE FREE MARKET FIX IT! (12+ / 0-)

      Like they did with the housing markets... err... the car companies... errrrr...  child labor... err...  workplace safety....   damn.  Racism?  Poverty?  Overpopulation?  World Hunger?  Disease?  someone give me one the free markets fixed.

      "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France

      by stophurtingamerica on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:12:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You know you live in a Capitalist country (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hmi, Lucy2009

        The regulated semi free market is how we live. It got you these nice computers to write your comments on, and keeps the lights on. It is not good for everything but I don't think the government needs to make our cars. Companies sometimes fail but you don't give them credit for their successes. Bad management happens in the private and public sector. Humans are imperfect, that is why we have problems to begin with. Everything is not the market's fault, nor is it all the government. These extremes lead to irrational positions built on black and white oversimplifications.

      •  Charters have nothing to do with the Free Market. (3+ / 0-)

        You are confusing Charters with Private schools.

        Every kid is allowed to apply for a lottery slot at a Charter. There is no tuition. It does not matter if the family is rich or poor.

        This is the exact opposite of a free-market system. In a free-market system, only rich kids get good schools.

        •  I'm referring mostly to the people investing (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis, Dirtandiron, NWTerriD

          in them.  As pointed out in the diary, lots of wall street types.  Bastions of the free market.

          "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France

          by stophurtingamerica on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:45:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Read the story. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            princss6

            The Wall Street guys aren't investing.  They are giving the money. Charity. For free.

            •  I don't believe this. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Linda Wood

              I simply don't.  They are doing it for tax reasons.  

              "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France

              by stophurtingamerica on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:30:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Did you miss this entire quote? (6+ / 0-)

              There's a lot of money to be made in charter schools, and I'm not talking just about the for-profit management companies that run a lot of these charter schools.

              It turns out that at the tail end of the Clinton administration in 2000, Congress passed a new kind of tax credit called a New Markets tax credit. What this allows is it gives enormous federal tax credit to banks and equity funds that invest in community projects in underserved communities and it's been used heavily now for the last several years for charter schools. I have focused on Albany, New York, which in New York state, is the district with the highest percentage of children in charter schools, twenty percent of the schoolchildren in Albany attend are now attending charter schools. I discovered that quite a few of the charter schools there have been built using these New Markets tax credits.

              What happens is the investors who put up the money to build charter schools get to basically or virtually double their money in seven years through a thirty-nine percent tax credit from the federal government. In addition, this is a tax credit on money that they're lending, so they're also collecting interest on the loans as well as getting the thirty-nine percent tax credit. They piggy-back the tax credit on other kinds of federal tax credits like historic preservation or job creation or brownfields credits.

              Charity, my ass.

              I sure wish my government gave me as much privacy as they demand I give them.

              by Daddy Bartholomew on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:06:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The investors... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                princss6

                ...that get the tax credit are not the hedge fund managers who are giving the millions (out of their pocket) in charity.

                All the tax credit does is make funding a Charter School competitive with the tax-free bonds used to fund school districts everywhere.

                It is not a big deal.

                •  You're joking, right? (0+ / 0-)

                  Please tell me you're joking.

                  "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

                  by Ivan on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 06:45:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  So, what's the alternative? (0+ / 0-)

        Yeah, let's get rid of the free market and just let the idiots in Congress have full control of our lives.  They do such a great job, if we just gave them more control, everything would be fixed, right?  

        Obviously, we need regulation and laws to protect the free market from abusing the citizenry, but what is the alternative?  Less freedom?

        As for what the free market has given us, take a look at what life is like in countries without a free market (i.e. Cuba, Soviet Union, etc.).  

        With the housing market, who is they?  The borrowers who got a loan and didn't pay it back?  

        I'd hardly call the GM (or any other) bailout a product of the free market.  

        Where is child labor an issue?  It's in places without a true free market democracy, like China.  The modern Western free market world doesn't stand for child labor, other than to buy cheap stuff at Wal-Mart.  But what is your answer?  To put those kids out of business.  Then what would they do?  Eat cake?

        We also have the safest workplaces in the world because people have choices in a free labor market.  

        Minorities get jobs in free market countries because their employers profit from their skills.  Let's not forget the opportunities women get in the free market west compared to under Sharia Law.  

        The poor in free market countries live better than the middle class in countries without free markets.  

        Who's more overpopulated, the US or China?  

        More poor kids in the US are fat than go hungry.  

        How many cures have the free market West developed? How many lives saved and enriched.  Heard of any breakthroughs from China lately?  How many did the Soviet Union produce?

        And, on top of that, we all get I-Pods.

        There are plenty of examples of abuses AND benefits.

        •  Uncle Milty, (0+ / 0-)

          The disconnect between a free market and what we have is not just regulation of capitalist abuses but also a distortion of the free market when it is bonded to taxpayer support. Federal bailouts, guarantees, and privatization create monsters of corruption, and the privatization of education has the potential to become another racket.

          Dictatorships, whether capitalist or socialist, oppress labor, including child labor. The most corrupt feature of the former Soviet Union and the current economy of China was and is their partnership with western capitalist companies. Yes, U.S. companies were involved with the Soviet government and its oppression of labor and human rights from the beginning and continue to play important roles in the development of the kleptocracy of Russia and China today.

          Democracies, whether capitalist or socialist, provide higher standards of living, education, health, and human rights.

          The overpopulation of China did not occur under socialism. The socialist dictatorship of China brought about the one child policy. With due respect, I feel you are confusing human rights with the free market.

          •  Fair Points... (0+ / 0-)

            As you point out, most tyranny in the world comes from governments, not the private sector.  Sure there are evil capitalists, but most are law abiding business owners, home owners and average Joes.  No capitalists ever did the kind of damage that Hitler and Stalin did or would do what the nut-jobs in Iran and N. Korea could if ever given a chance.

            The federal bail outs were a function of government corruption.  The private sector just accepted the gift the way I accept a tax credit I am lawfully allowed to take, but isn't fair when someone else has to pay the full tax bill.  

            Not all privatization is bad, especially when compared with incompetent governmental monopolies that don't respond to voters/consumers.  The more power the consumers have, the better.  Free market capitalism IS democracy.  We vote with our dollars and companies respond or go bankrupt.  If you treat your workers poorly, they leave. If you make crappy products, people buy them from another company.  It's when gov't gets involved that we get poor results, bail outs, crappy public schools, inefficient postal service, etc.  You forget that the banking industry is among the most heavily regulated in the world.

            Democracies are better off than dictatorships and capitalist countries have higher standards of living than socialist countries.

            As for schools, I'm pro-choice all the way.  We need more competition like there is for colleges or doctors or auto mechanics.  We need less gov't monopolies like the post office and public schools.

            Dollars are like ballots.  Sure some have more than others, but the solution is not to abolish the ballot box.  The key is to find ways to lift people up so they can have more dollars/votes.  That's why education is so critical.

            Lastly, I’m still waiting for someone to offer a plausible alternative to the free market.  Freedom doesn’t solve all our problems, but it’s better than the alternative.  And it’s infinitely better than the person/entitiy who gets to decide what freedoms I should and shouldn’t have.

            •  Again, with respect, (0+ / 0-)

              I must respond.

              You say:

              No capitalists ever did the kind of damage that Hitler and Stalin did...

              but in saying it you ignore our current knowledge that U.S. capitalists armed them both, without which neither of them could have harmed anyone. See the works of the Hoover Institution and Stanford University's Antony Sutton. Among the evil capitalists you mention, these are the worst. And there have been some real doozies.

              The federal bail outs were a function of government corruption.

              The federal bail outs were a function of government corruption by evil capitalists.

              You forget that the banking industry is among the most heavily regulated in the world.

              You're right. I forget.

              •  Give me more... (0+ / 0-)

                ...details on your views.

                Exactly which capitalists armed Hitler and Stalin?  You talk about capitalists like they form a single entity.  The very nature of capitalism is freedom.  I'm sure some folks helped Hitler and Stalin and others (like the vast majority of the free market, democratic West) fought to stop him.  It was largely our economic success that propelled our victory over both evil empires.  Some people are bad, but freedom is not.  Capitalism is freedom and freedom is the solution.

                Perhaps we have a semantic difference regarding the bailouts.  I think the capitalist would argue for bankruptcy, not bail outs.  Bail outs are what authoritarian and corrupt gov'ts do.  They may be bought off by evil capitalists, but the answer is to remove the power of gov'ts, not to give it more power.  That will just lead to more power on sale for the evil capitalists.  At the heart of the issue is who makes decisions and who has the power.  Is it the citizenry or the gov't?  If there is an alternative, let me know.

                It seems we agree that simply adding more regulation to the system will probably just lead to more wasted money and greater control by those who wish to purchase influence.  The foxes are deciding who gets to guard the chickens.  If we insist on bankruptcy and ending to-big-to-fail, it will go a long way toward fixing the problem.

                •  My view (0+ / 0-)

                  is that Military Industrial Socialism is the state of affairs we have been in since before WWII and that this is not freedom, not a free market, and not capitalism either. I think we agree in some ways.

                  But the entity Eisenhower warned us about is not just the industry of war, not just weapons production, transport and finance connected to war. It's also those industrial interests that use the United States military for their own purposes, that is, to plunder resources and oppress labor worldwide for the benefit of those particular companies.

                  I agree, this is not the free market, it is not capitalism itself. It is the theft of our government for the profit of a very few companies. The companies that armed Hitler and Stalin include some we are dealing with now in the bailouts and in oil profiteering. Endless war makes this possible. It creates the rationale for unlimited printing of money and endless national debt.

                  Charles Higham's Trading With the Enemy is a good source of information about U.S. companies arming Hitler for the duration of the war, and Antony Sutton's works, some of which are online, deal with both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

                  •  Thanks... (0+ / 0-)

                    I'll check those references out.  I'm not as cynical as you are.  There are a lot of good people in the military that would speak up about a true conspiracy.  Companies make things.  Some of those things get used to kill people.  If we didn't make them, someone else would.  I think we can agree that our quarrel is not with economic freedom, but with the people who use the weapons to kill and exploit.

                    After all, it was those same weapons, made by those same companies, that defeated Hitler and broke the back of the Soviet Union.  As the cliché goes, freedom isn't free.

    •  Improving education starts in the womb. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      divineorder, NWTerriD, Lucy2009

      The other side of social stress through privatization scams that feed Wall Street greed means less money for social programs that stabilize indigent mothers-to-be and engage them in better nutrition. Healthy kids learn better. Once engaged by multiple social service professionals, their families are less likely to suffer divorce. The kids are less likely to need welfare or mental health services, and they violate the law less often as they grow up.

      These better outcomes have been proven by longitudinal (long-term studies) by RAND Corporation. They clearly demonstrated enormous long term benefits to society as a whole in all aspects.

      •  Charter schools are an anti-union ploy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ivan

        fomenting hedge fund vampiresquidism - the ruthless raiding of public funds for private profit.

        Parasitic leeches applied directly to state budgets, bleeding them dry! It is a moral outrage.

        •  Exactly... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          princss6

          Because the unions refuse to accept changes that might make the system better.  They represent the adults, not the kids.  

          The fact that we're all complaining that rich people are pouring millions of dollars into the education system should be celebrated.  They see problems and are doing what they can to help fix it.  That's what these guys do, they start businesses and innovate.  If they do a bad job, than people won't go to their charter schools.  It's not like ANYONE is forced to go to a charter school.  Last time I checked, they were 100% Voluntary.  Not so with the public schools, unless you're rich.  

          Furthermore, why are we so sure that ALL hedge fund managers are evil.  I’m sure some are.  But to say everyone who is a successful investor is evil is a little stereotypical, isn’t it?  It is possible to play by the rules, create value for customers and be successful.  In fact, I think it probably happens more often than not.

          I don't see how more choices for parents is a bad thing...unless you're the teacher's union.

  •  I knew a teacher at a charter school who (12+ / 0-)

    had to pay for all supplies, worked long hours, never got a raise, while the owners of the school came back from summer vacation with new Mercedes.

    How do you know if the people who start the charter schools are in it for the money or if they are in it to educate kids?

  •  We need to keep repeating this until it sinks in: (25+ / 0-)

    These are the people who ruined our economy, but suddenly we're supposed to think it's a good idea to turn them loose on our schools?

    They only call it Class War when we fight back.

    by lineatus on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:06:33 PM PDT

    •  Amen!!!!!! (15+ / 0-)

      I also question the motives behind these whiz kids pouring money into charter schools. This is not altruism. Profit may play a role, but I think that something even larger and perhaps more insidious is going on here.

    •  They might have ruined the economy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      princss6, SoCalSal

      Nonetheless they have managed to pay themselves than ever before. They are good at what they do, and that is making money in finance. If they give money to an art program it does not mean they want to privatize it. If they gave money for AIDS research it does not mean they seek to profit from drug sales. Harlem Children's zone is not a corporate conspiracy to privatize education.

      •  Though that may be true, it's hard not to search (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JanL, Matt Z, Dirtandiron, Egalitare

        for an ulterior motive behind every action taken by these bastards.  I just don't see them as particularly altruistic, though I'd love for them to prove me wrong.

        They only call it Class War when we fight back.

        by lineatus on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:37:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Digging for conspiracy theories? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          princss6

          This is starting to resemble the Fox News school of Journalism.

          •  No, not in the least. (7+ / 0-)

            I just don't trust them any farther than I can throw them.  Their track record to this point has not been exceptional, for anyone other than themselves.  

            Read my comment history and diary history - I swear a lot, but I'm otherwise pretty levelheaded.  All I'm saying is that these fuckers have shown that they don't seem to care much about anything that does not benefit them directly.  If they had even a shred of decency, they'd have worked honestly to try to sort out the economic fiasco that they brought on.  Instead, they worked tirelessly to get it cleaned up just enough to resume bonus packages.

            How you get digging for CT out of that is beyond me.

            They only call it Class War when we fight back.

            by lineatus on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:58:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The rich are different. Their tax rate is 15% (6+ / 0-)

          obtained by buying off servile politicians. (I'm lookin at you, Chuck.)
          Right now they're fighting tooth and nail against having to pay fair rates.  Some patriots.
          Because of lack of money, California has had massive teacher layoffs and doubled class sizes.  Just one example.
          If these billionaires cared about kids, they'd be fighting for higher pay for teachers and doing everything they could to help teachers do their jobs.  
          They could start by paying higher taxes.
          They want to kill off the Democratic party because it stands in the way of their oligarchy, and getting rid of teachers unions is high on their agenda.  They'll go after every union job until they've seized every pension penny and shipped every job to some foreign sweatshop.
          You're right to follow the money.

      •  I see your point, and I'd like to believe that (0+ / 0-)

        it's true, but......  these fellows have proven themselves to be scoundrels of the worst kind. I just don't believe it's purely altruistic on their part.

        Hope I'm wrong though.    :)

        I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

        by Lucy2009 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:10:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I can only conclude from this (0+ / 0-)

        If they gave money for AIDS research it does not mean they seek to profit from drug sales. Harlem Children's zone is not a corporate conspiracy to privatize education.

        that while JackieandFritz is a right-wing troll, princss6 is an an angry black woman with a grudge against public schools, and manhattanman is a corporatist shill, you are just a gullible dupe.

        I don't come to Daily Kos for an echo chamber. I ignore BWD now, and OPOL. But JackieandFritz aside, because they're just trolls, you three aren't adding anything to this discussion. If there's a good argument for charters, I haven't heard it yet.

        "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

        by Ivan on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 06:55:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There are thousands of great reasons... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          princss6

          Every time a parent chooses to send their kid to a charter school instead of a public school, that is a GREAT reason to have them.  Who are you to tell those parents they don't know what they are doing?

          Charters aren't magical, but to say all of those parents are wrong is to ignore the real issues in underperforming public schools.  That's why the hedge fund guys are dumping money into Charters.  The public school unions won't change and innovate.  It's not about hurting public schools, it's about putting money in a direction that is willing to change and experiment.

          •  Read my comment below (0+ / 0-)

            Innovation is not only possible within our present collective bargaining agreements, its success is known and documented. "The public school unions won't change and innovate" is the purest bullshit, and I have no patience with, and no respect for, those who push it.

            "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

            by Ivan on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 07:38:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You have just illustrated my point... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              princss6

              Whenever anyone talks about school reforms that include evaluating teachers on incremental, individualized student performance from year-to-year, firing bad teachers, merit pay, ending tenure, market based pay flexibility, basic competence exams and so on, the unions go crazy and say things like, "...purest bullshit...no patience...no respect."

              The issue isn't whether unions make it possible. The issue is whether the improvements are fast enough and the quality of the education is the best available.  Parents, as evidenced by their choice to leave the public schools in droves, are saying that Charters are winning the race.

              That's why the hedge fund guys put their money into charters.  It's not a sinister plot to hurt children.  It's because they want results and accountability.  The unions make that extremely difficult.

              The fact that you completely dismiss what parent's choices are telling us is further evidence that the unions work for the adults, not the students.

        •  What? (0+ / 0-)

          princss6 is an an angry black woman with a grudge against public schools

          Stereotype much?

          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

          by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 10:02:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Does the truth hurt? (0+ / 0-)

            Not a stereotype, but a conclusion based on reading dozens of your bullshit posts.

            "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

            by Ivan on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 10:08:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Whatever... (0+ / 0-)

              you're delusional.  

              the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

              by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 10:10:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I appreciate your posts (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                princss6, Uncle Milty

                You must be a parent because you seem to understand that parents need quality school choices for their children.In most metro areas under the current US system there is little choice for the middle class other then trying to move to a rich suburban school district.For example any Detroit family with even a modest amount of money, black or white, will avoid Detroit Public Schools by moving to Grosse Point or Bloomfield Hills. Thus the poor are left isolated in the city. The Teachers union doesn't care about this kind of choice or adverse selection because the suburban district is unionized.The union could care less if Detroit and other US cities suffer from real estate based choice.One way to change union opposition to choice and charters would be to strengthen private sector labor law to make it easier to form unions at private and parochial schools. The AFT and NEA would quickly change their attitude toward school choice on the day that happened.

                Cities are good for the environment

                by citydem on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 12:04:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thank you... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  citydem, Uncle Milty

                  and I completely agree with your post.  Schools are invariably the biggest factor in deciding where one resides.  

                  the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                  by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 12:17:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Bullshit. (4+ / 0-)

      Hedge funds, especially funds like David Einhorn's, had little to do with the crash. No hedge fund got bailed out.

      Don't confuse hedge funds with the big investment banks like Goldman Sachs, or commercial banks like Citigroup.

      It is fashionable, and maybe even sensible, to distrust anything having to do with Wall Street. But confusing a Hedge Fund with a Bank shows deep financial ignorance...and doesn't make our community look smart.

      •  Hedge funds didn't get bailouts this time (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron

        That's true.  (I guess they learned from the Long Term Capital Management debacle.)  And I'm not confusing hedge funds with banks.  I would have used much stronger language if we were talking about banks.

        Believe it or not, I'm not anti-wealth.  I think it's a good thing when someone is rewarded for doing something well.  What I am is anti-gaming-the-system.  When those who already have more money than God find ways to get tax codes re-written to their benefit.  When the "doing something well" consists solely of finding ways to hand off your losses to someone else.

        The whole financial sector has a stench about it, and until the people within the system are willing to work at really, truly seriously reforming things, the whole sector will continue to have a shitty reputation with the public.  I'm sorry for the good people who work in the industry who have been tainted by association with the assholes.  We're all paying the price, but some are in a better position to stop the assholes and I really wish they would.

        They only call it Class War when we fight back.

        by lineatus on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:44:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Probably not a good idea to generalize (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ManhattanMan, SoCalSal

      in this instance. Some, perhaps most,  of "these" people probably weren't responsible for our economic meltdown.  

      •  As I said upthread, I'm not kneejerk anti-wealth (0+ / 0-)

        And I should add:  Despite my reservations, I'd rather have these people directing kids' curriculum than the Texas School Board.  At least the hedge fund managers believe in evolution.

        The people behind this might be great.  But surely you understand why there's some skepticism?

        They only call it Class War when we fight back.

        by lineatus on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:35:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ManhattanMan, princss6

          but I also understand that the current public school system isn't working well enough to justify the enormous sums of money we're pouring into it, probably at least in part because so much of the money is spent on top-heavy administration in ways that don't enhance classroom learning. If charter schools can eliminate much of that bureaucracy and be better or on par with traditional public schools, we may be able to learn from their varied experiments how to change the traditional system for the better.  

          It might be better and cheaper to pay a teacher $70,000 a year and give him or her fifteen students to personally tutor for the year, particularly in the lower grades where the content is relatively generic.  

          •  Charters generally pay their administrators (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ivan

            more, much more, than traditional public schools. They also tend to pay their teachers less and offer less benefits.

            •  Would you mind sourcing this? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ManhattanMan

              Here in MN, the leader of the St Paul public school system was recently promised a $30,000 bonus in addition to her $190,000 yearly salary, benefits and perks (free leased car, etc) as "added incentive" to achieve certain benchmarks. The notion that she would give greater effort if offered the bonus is symptomatic of what's wrong with our school finances.

              Given that teacher pay is usually based on years in the system, is it surprising that those joining a new system would make less and be offered less benefits than those extorted by the powerful teachers unions?

              •  Not at all. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                NWTerriD

                During this roundtable on DemocracyNow! Juan Gonzalez reports that Geoffrey Canada of the much-touted Harlem Children's Zone is paying himself $500K for running "a couple of schools and a youth program" and that Eva Moskowitz makes more than $350K at Harlem Success. This latter, incidentally, appeared in the above diary. Do you know any public school principals making this ?
                This link will take you to an investigation of charters in my local paper. There you may read about a couple that operate two charter schools serving 1,200 students. They earned a combined $343K. By contrast, the superintendent of a nearby traditional public school district serving 18,000 students was paid $150K.

                •  Yes, but... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...the superintendent of the "nearby traditional public school district" was probably not held accountable for how much his students learned.

                  He probably had excellent Job Security and civil service protections, as well.

                  Those Charter School administrators can (and do) get fired at will. I have seen it happen.

                  •  Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                    Charter administrators can't be fired by anybody, it's their school. If things get really bad the state shuts down the school. We have elected school boards who hire Supts., generally for one year contracts. The board can renew or not. They get good bennies, but nothing like civil service protections. They have even less job security than the teachers, and this is a right-to-work state with very weak unions.  

                    •  Oh really now... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Linda Wood, ManhattanMan

                      The embattled board of the Philadelphia Academy Charter School last night released a scathing internal report alleging that the charter's founder and its former chief executive officer systematically looted the school for personal gain.

                      The report, compiled by a team of lawyers led by a former federal prosecutor, says more than $700,000 is missing from a school account and cites "substantial evidence of wrongdoing" by Brien N. Gardiner, a former public school principal who founded the popular charter in Northeast Philadelphia, and Kevin M. O'Shea, a former police officer who replaced Gardiner as CEO two years ago.

                      A former city police officer with a high school diploma, O'Shea earned $204,000 as the school's chief executive officer until he and Gardiner were fired in May.

                      Never fired, right?  It is abundantly clear that there are a lot of urban myths going around about charters on this blog.  Frankly I'm shocked at the amount of rumors circulating, unsupported and unsustantiated.  It is frikkin worse than Fox News!

                      the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                      by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 03:57:06 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You didn't read my reply to (0+ / 0-)

                        another of your comments. We seem to have regional differences in charter laws. In my state charter operators aren't fired. When things get too bad the state shuts down the school. This is not a rumor or myth. We have had charters here for a long time. Our state legislature hates public schools and public school teachers so they passed laws allowing charters years ago. At the risk of repeating myself, a couple are good, most are mediocre and some are little more than scams. Your blockquote seems to be making my case for me. Charters are not a panacea, you will discover this with time.

                        •  Yep... (0+ / 0-)

                          because I routinely just throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I think what you will discover in time is exactly what you said, but it confuses the devil out of me why you are against charters.  Some are good, some are bad, some are in the middle.  I've said this before.  It isn't a revelation.  At least, I'm willing to look at charters with a critical eye, unlike you and others who just want to put forth the notion that ALL public schools are good and ALL teachers are great and if it wasn't for parents and communities, some kids in public schools would do just dandy.  

                          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                          by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 07:31:57 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  OK, one last time. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Linda Wood

                            The privatization of public education has been a long-standing goal of the corporate/conservative Right. They do not care about your kids or mine and seek only to funnel public funds into private pockets.
                            Charters schools are an intermediate step to vouchers and privatization. Privatized government services always cost more and deliver less; they are always less accountable to the public. The NEA and the AFT stand in the way of the corporate takeover, that is why they are being demonized. Teachers are being scapegoated for economic inequality and a corporate sponsored culture of stupidity. The teachers didn't move the jobs out of the cities, nor did they force Americans to watch Dancing with the Stars instead of reading books. Public education is a good thing; we should be fighting to keep it rather than cooperating with right-wing privatizers.

                          •  Okay... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Linda Wood

                            The privatization of public education has been a long-standing goal of the corporate/conservative Right.

                            So your answer is to pretend that privitization equals charters.  Fine by me but the data suggests otherwise, but whatever, I guess.

                            They do not care about your kids or mine and seek only to funnel public funds into private pockets.

                            And public schools care about my kids and yours.  Well you would have to prove that to me because the way I see it, public schools in my city are space holders until prison.  But if you call that caring, well I would have to question what you call willful and malicious neglect.

                            Charters schools are an intermediate step to vouchers and privatization.

                            And failing schools is an intermediate step to charters.  Your point is what?

                            Privatized government services always cost more and deliver less; they are always less accountable to the public.

                            And the accountability to the students in school district and their parents was just peachy keen before charters, right?  Every single argument you make against charters can just as EASILY be made against public schools that serve the pooor and minorities or found in inner cities.  I don't understand why you have such a hard time understanding this point and why public schools are left vulnerable.  They were the only game in town but now people have choice and can find schools that fit their needs unlike the horrid places that are the public schools in my city.  You would begrudge people of this?  Unbelievable.

                            The NEA and the AFT stand in the way of the corporate takeover, that is why they are being demonized.

                            LOL...the NEA and AFT stand in the way of getting quality teachers in my neighborhood school and kicking out the bad teachers.  They should be demonized when they perpetuate a system that is unequal routinely and has been for years.  

                            Teachers are being scapegoated for economic inequality and a corporate sponsored culture of stupidity.

                            So demanding the teachers who receive my tax dollars actually do their job is scapegoating.  I'm reading the study on KIPP now.  I will be posting a diary at some point.  You hold on to your notion that kids in economically depressed areas are doomed to not attaining educational achievement but realize that there is data out there, even the CREDO study with the crazy methodology that you all like to cite, that shows, charters are improving the outcomes of poor and minority kids.  So much for scapegoating teachers for economic inequality, eh?  

                            The teachers didn't move the jobs out of the cities, nor did they force Americans to watch Dancing with the Stars instead of reading books.

                            Hey, I watch Dancing with Stars and my kid his very educated.  But then again, he only spent six months in kindergarten in our neighborhood public school.  I literally would stay up at night if I had to send him to our school.  I would move hell and highwater to make sure he doesn't attend our neighborhood school, but it is okay if you think my kid should just setting for the bullshit that passes for public education in my city.  With allies like you....You have kids?  Would you risk your kid's life by placing your kid in our schools.  Yeah it is nice to sit on high in a decent public school and espouse views and quite frankly CT theories about charters all from the comfy of your nice school district boundaries.  You want to be progressive, then join me and opening up borders so that all kids can have a chance.  haha, I bet the so-called Progressive will be apoplectic over that suggestion with their NIMBY syndrome.

                            Public education is a good thing; we should be fighting to keep it rather than cooperating with right-wing privatizers.

                            Public education FOR SOME NOT ALL is a good thing.  Be greatful you are one of the some apparently.

                            the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                            by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 09:42:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Azazello and princss6, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            princss6, Azazello

                            You two are having the most important discussion going on here, I think.

                            Azazello, I am with you about the corporatization of public education and the demonization of teachers' unions. You state it so well. But princss6 is talking about a child's future life and about their family's direct experience in a public school. The proof, for this family, is in the pudding: How well their child is doing now.

                          •  Azazello and princss6, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            princss6, Azazello

                            You two are having the most important discussion going on here, I think.

                            Azazello, I am with you about the corporatization of public education and the demonization of teachers' unions. You state it so well. But princss6 is talking about a child's future life and about their family's direct experience in a public school. The proof, for this family, is in the pudding: How well their child is doing now.

                          •  We have a somewhat rocky relationship, (0+ / 0-)

                            but it's a real issue. The Right has co-opted inner city parents whose children attend decrepit, dysfunctional schools. This is exemplified by Newt Gingrich and Al Sharpton joining forces to bash public schools. My beef is that the teacher's are being scapegoated for factors totally outside their control.

                          •  My suspicions about the Corporate Right (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            princss6

                            and their efforts to control education in this country go way beyond the racketeering potential associated with public funding. My bigger concern is about efforts to control curriculum, and it is based on the history of this kind of control in our country since the beginning of public schools.

                            I basically think the most ruthless interests want to produce a small class of university educated researchers and developers, a medium sized class of skilled workers and managers, and a very large class of functionally illiterate people trained for very low-waged jobs.

                            I object strenuously to the notion that low-income people don't help their children with their homework. I object whole heartedly to the suggestion that low income parents are not working. I object intensely to the idea that low-income children are unruly or disruptive in their schools.

                            I think these ideas are koolaid for liberals who can't figure out why there is an achievement gap in some U.S. school districts. I hope people will look closely at curriculum in these districts to see if there are discrepancies in early Reading instruction based on student income. You may think that's far-fetched, but I think there has been an insidious program of disabling students in low income districts and neighborhoods for a very long time.

                          •  Wanted to let you know... (0+ / 0-)

                            I think we talked about your background and I think I confused you with another poster.  I've just adopted audiobooks (in addition to the actual book) to supplement my son's reading to help push him towards grade appropriate reading and to build his comprehension.  So far all is going well!

                            the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                            by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 05:39:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  princss6, (0+ / 0-)

                            thank you for this comment. We didn't talk about my background, and I am just a lay person very interested in children's education, especially early Reading instruction. I find your contributions to this discussion to be the most important ones I've seen anywhere.
                            LW

                          •  That is not fair... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Linda Wood, Azazello

                            The Right has co-opted inner city parents whose children attend decrepit, dysfunctional schools.

                            Come on, now.  That statement really lacks the nuanced situation that is the reality.  The republicans aren't co-opting inner city parents, not yet anyway.  We will all go out and vote Democrat.  We are switching parties.  But we aren't marching lockstep on the education front.  It may become a real issue in the coming years but that will only be if Democrats continue to put their loyalty to unions in front of inner city kids.  

                            And my beef is that inner city parents are being scapegoated for factors totally outside their control.  

                            the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                            by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 05:35:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Should read.. (0+ / 0-)

                            we AREN'T switching parties.

                            the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                            by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 05:39:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                            Inner city parents are good, bad and indifferent, just like suburban parents, but there seems to be a higher percentage of bad parents in the inner city, as evidenced by the appalling number of inner city (black) kids who come to kindergarten not knowing the alphabet, not being able to count to ten, etc.. A lot of these kids start out behind and never catch up, not because of teacher ineptitude but because of parental neglect.  

                            I've known both good and bad black parents. I talked to one single mother who has had a couple of her kids graduate from college and she has two more headed that way. She was involved in her kids' education from Day One and said she considered herself and the school a team working together. Her kids are sending her and a friend to Jamaica for a vacation.That's a good parent.

                            Then there was the mother who told her young daughter she should've stolen another girl's boots. Apparently the little girl tried and had them on but gave them up when caught by the owner.The mother said, "You should've told her there's a lot of boots this color and these are mine. You need to learn to play a role." When her little girl said every time she tries that she gets into trouble, the mother said, "It's school. You can get away with that there." That mother had a couple of other young daughters sitting there and none of them said anything to contradict her. That bitch isn't being scapegoated.  Her children would have a better chance being raised by wolves.

                            It isn't any big secret that the pathologies and sins of too many inner city black parents are being visited upon their children.  

                            You and Linda can object to reality all you like but that won't change anything. Public, private, charter - none of them can heal the damage inflicted on children when their first and primary teacher(s) - the parent(s) - fail to live up to their responsibilities.

            •  And yet, public schools admins doing pretty good (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ManhattanMan

              Philadelphia schools chief Arlene Ackerman refused Monday to explain exactly what she did to earn a $65,000 bonus, awarded in April by the School Reform Commission in a tough economic climate, as other public officials took pay cuts.

              Ackerman, through a spokesman, cited a provision in the five-year contract she negotiated with the district that forbids the release of the evaluation.

              The bonus for the 2008-09 school year comes on top of her $338,000 annual salary.

              Ackerman's salary is higher than those of the school chiefs in New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, the nation's three largest districts. She's due a 3 percent raise on Sept. 1 and is eligible to receive another bonus next year.

              link

              the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

              by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 08:58:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That school board (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ivan, elfling

                    in Philly is not doing right by it's constituents and should be voted out. Local control is another thing that privatization will eliminate.

                •  School board can't be voted out... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ManhattanMan

                  they are ALL appointed either by the Governor or the mayor and at least one appointment must be a Republican.  This is our public school system.  But you guys can continue to throw darts at charters as if they are doing anything different when it comes to profiteering and patronage than the public schools.  Feel free but the arguments put forth are convincing no one but the already convinced.  

                  the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                  by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 10:09:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It looks like we have local differences. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ivan

                    I'm in AZ. This is a right-to-work state so the union-bashing doesn't work here or, believe me the wingnuts would be doing it. Arizona is governed by right-wing zealots who hate public education and the people who work in it. My state was a leader in charters because the Right hates public education. We had charters here before a lot of people even knew what they were. We have one Potemkin charter that gets all the press, but most of them are mediocre and some are little more than scams, ways for the operators to rip off the state government. Our experience is that charters are not a panacea.

              •  Finally! princss6 and I agree! (0+ / 0-)

                Arlene Ackerman is a piece of shit.

                "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

                by Ivan on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 07:00:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Umm... (0+ / 0-)

                  you have applied a divisive and racist stereotype against me and I don't appreciate it.

                  the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                  by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 10:06:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Why is it so much easier (15+ / 0-)

    to get the public to believe that Teachers' Unions are to blame than to digest this information?

    The only newscaster on Fox that you can trust is Kent Brockman.

    by Van Buren on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:11:26 PM PDT

  •  So you stumble into a year-old story... (6+ / 7-)

    And you thereby make the claim that because two assholes in NYC are funding Moskowitz that all charters are being funded by Wall Street?

    And because Geoffrey Canada is getting results that NO TRADITIONAL INNER-CITY PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL can get, he is attracting donors. And you want to suggest that that is nefarious.

    You truly suck at journalism. You might be an effective propagandist hack when your audience is already brainwashed into favoring teachers over inner-city at-risk students. But then again, pandering to the brainwashed isn't difficult. Ask Beck or Limbaugh.

  •  TheNation debunks "Waiting for Superman" neatly (17+ / 0-)

    As does The Atlantic.

    Here's part of The Nation's takedown:

    The film doesn't acknowledge that Bill Gates, who began his philanthropic career deeply skeptical of teachers unions, has lately embraced them as essential players in the fight for school improvement. His foundation finances a program in Boston called Turnaround Teacher Teams, which works with the district and its teachers union to move cohorts of experienced, highly rated instructors into high-needs schools, while giving them extra training and support.

    In July Gates spoke at the American Federation of Teachers convention in Seattle, saying, "If reforms aren't shaped by teachers' knowledge and experience, they're not going to succeed." A few protesters booed, but he received several standing ovations. Members of the Gates Foundation staff later met with AFT executives, and the two teams discussed ways to collaborate, despite lingering differences on issues like teacher pensions.

    When I spoke with Weingarten in late August at her office on Capitol Hill, she was livid about Waiting for Superman, referring to its charter school triumphalism as an example of "magic dust." "There's always pressure to find the one thing that's going to be the shortcut," she said. But she was ecstatic about improved relations with Gates and angry that, in her view, the mainstream media have ignored the news of their rapprochement. "The media want conflict," she said. "They don't let us tell our story."

    And remember that "model" charter school the movie touted?  The NYT (via The Atlantic) reports that, well, it's not such a great model after all:

    Most of the seventh graders, now starting their third year in [a Harlem Children's Zone charter school], are still struggling. Just 15 percent passed the 2010 state English test, a number that Mr. Canada said was "unacceptably low" but not out of line with the school's experience in lifting student performance over time. Several teachers have been fired as a result of the low scores, and others were reassigned, he said.

    Giving administrators the ability to fire teachers for poor performance is one of the central suggestions of "Waiting for 'Superman.' " Over all, 38 percent of Promise Academy I's students in third through sixth grade passed the 2010 English test under the state's new guidelines, placing it in the lower half of charter schools citywide, and below the city's overall passing rate of 42 percent. In Harlem as a whole, just 29 percent of children passed.

    Oh, and these schools cost $16,000 per pupil, whereas regular NYC public schools -- with EEEEVIL UNNNNION TEEEEEACHERS -- cost under $14,500 per pupil and get better results.

    Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

    by Phoenix Woman on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:19:33 PM PDT

    •  There are actual studies (5+ / 0-)

      and although the anti-charter school folks are always anxious to cite the aggregate numbers from e.g. the Credo and Mathematica studies, those studies who strongly positive results for poor kids in inner cities.

      Look it up.

      •  Did you forget to put the link in your post? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, Dirtandiron

        Did you forget to put the link in your post?

        If you have evidence to support your arguments, put it out there.  If you don't, well then how can we take your arguments seriously?

        •  easy to find (6+ / 0-)

          It is important to note that the news for charter schools has some encouraging facets. In our
          nationally pooled sample, two subgroups fare better in charters than in the traditional system:
          students in poverty and ELL students. This is no small feat. In these cases, our numbers indicate
          that charter students who fall into these categories are outperforming their TPS counterparts in
          both reading and math. These populations, then, have clearly been well served by the
          introduction of charters into the education landscape. These findings are particularly heartening
          for the charter advocates who target the most challenging educational populations or strive to
          improve education options in the most difficult communities. Charter schools that are organized
          around a mission to teach the most economically disadvantaged students in particular seem to
          have developed expertise in serving these communities. We applaud their efforts, and
          recommend that schools or school models demonstrating success be further studied with an eye
          toward the notoriously difficult process of replication. Further, even for student subgroups in
          charters that had aggregate learning gains lagging behind their TPS peers, the analysis revealed
          charter schools in at least one state that demonstrated positive academic growth relative to TPS
          peers. These higher performers also have lessons to share that could improve the performance
          of the larger community of charters schools.

          http://credo.stanford.edu/...

          •  The problem is, this shouldn't be a battle (11+ / 0-)

            Charter's have their place. If they help kids, more power too them. Let's not kid ourselves though, when they do a good job it is with a specific set of kids minus a lot of the difficulties public schools face.

            The problem with Charters is that ideologically minded people are using them as cudgels to bash traditional schools with.

            Support both. Get rid of the fraudulent charters, celebrate the good ones, but don't think it is an apples to apples comparison to bash traditional schools.

            •  The attempt to attack charters (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ManhattanMan, edtastic, princss6, SoCalSal

              seems to me to be on par with the old UAW attempt to block environmental regulation. The unions bureaucracy is tying itself to its peer management bureaucracy.

              The union movement can only flourish when unions act as part of the social justice coalition. Asking poor people to sacrifice their own children is not going to hack it.

              •  So how about we do both (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ManhattanMan, Dirtandiron

                Why does it have to be an us or them mentality with people like you? Charters have their place, and traditional schools need to be fixed. No charter has to face the burdens and complexities that traditional schools have to deal with. Charter schools can help lots of kids in their niche, but we need to improve traditional schools as well. No one is asking poor people to sacrifice their children. You are an arrogant and self righteous person for saying that. I've worked my whole career trying to improve the lives of poor kids.

              •  Exactly. Amen. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                princss6, SoCalSal

                Fighting school reform is bad for kids and it is bad Progressive Politics.

                All those families in Harlem are going to vote sooner or later. Do we really want to make them choose between their child and the Democrats?

                If the unions were smart, they would be starting Charters themselves (anybody may apply). If not that, they should at least cut the kids in the worst situations some slack.

                Also, let's not pretend that Teacher's Unions are especially Progressive. They tend to back Centrist Corporate Democrats, anyway.

                •  Yes they do!!! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  citizen k, SoCalSal

                  They tend to back Centrist Corporate Democrats, anyway.

                  Backed a Dem that practically said nothing on Education in my state except he didn't say he wanted to get rid of bad teachers.  The Progressive candidate (full disclosure - I worked for him), unequivocally supported public schools but also said we should get rid of bad teachers.  Guess who the unions backed in the governors race, the Dem who said nothing on education except he didn't want to get rid of bad teachers.  This corporate Dem who is Pro-Life and Pro-Gun then after the primary went out and ENDORSED VOUCHERS!  My candidate had a strenous debate with another candidate who supported vouchers.  Yep, and they wonder why people are skeptical when they have Progressive candidates to support and do not then turn around and support the candidate who supports vouchers.  

                  the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                  by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:39:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  No! This is wrong! (0+ / 0-)

                The attempt to attack charters seems to me to be on par with the old UAW attempt to block environmental regulation.

                And I note that the usual suspects recommended this comment. It's bullshit and this is why:

                The teachers, their unions, and their millions of supporters in the community understand that the same classroom innovations that charters tout as effective -- and that do show some positive results; let's be fair -- can be accomplished WITHIN present  collective bargaining agreements, IF school districts have the political will and the expertise to do so.

                In the Seattle School District, we have public "alternative" schools that feature student peer review, teachers' aides and parent volunteers, a more relaxed, informal, free-wheeling classroom environment. and far more hands-on instruction per student than in the "traditional" model.

                You want results? We'll show you some. My daughter went through one of these schools, Salmon Bay, from Grades 4-8, and I never saw or dreamed of a school like this. Almost all the kids who went through it are in college or college-bound now.

                All the alternative schools in the Seattle district are union-staffed, and the entire alternative setup is a result of collective bargaining. All the teachers and support staff are UNION, bitches!

                It's hardly a surprise that the Broad-trained superintendent is trying to close as many of these schools as she can. Their siccess demonstrates that the union is NOT a bar to innovation. Washington state has defeated charter schools in three separate STATEWIDE elections now, each time by a larger margin, but the bastards won't quit.

                "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

                by Ivan on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 07:19:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  right on... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dirtandiron

              You're exactly right!

          •  what happened to james earl? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ManhattanMan, princss6

            ?

            •  He is under no obligation to reply to you. n/t (0+ / 0-)
            •  He's grading students' journals! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              badger, elfling

              Citizen K,

              I have read summaries of that study, and now the executive summary, but I wouldn't be putting that out as proof that charters were the answer.

              Still, they found gains for two groups.  I would like to know exactly what they were.   I have visited and observed charter schools in LA, I've been to magnet schools where the students wear uniforms and behave like angels.  The teachers were doing the exact same things that we do in the public schools.  So I look for other explanations.

              Students whose parents are involved and savvy enough to get their children into a charter school have that going for them.

              I should tell you right off, I am not convinced that standardized test scores are a good way to judge whether students are better educated.  Even the NEAP tests.

              You can get a decent bump in the scores by teaching the test questions.  It works because the same things are tested over and over.  

              We could get a real increase in the annual CST test scores in California if the state made it a policy that students who score below basic or far below basic do not advance to the next grade.  I have to tell you, the marginal students simply do not try to answer all the questions correctly.  Anyone who watched students taking these tests can see that.  (I've worked at three different high schools.)

              An educated student will almost always do well on those tests.  But, a student who scores higher on those tests is not necessarily educated.  That said, I don't accept low test scores.

              I have to get back to reading students' journals.

          •  You continually cite (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ivan, badger, elfling, Azazello

            the pro-charter comments from the Stanford report while ignoring its overall negative conclusion regarding charter schools.

            17% of the time Charters do better than correponding public schools while 37% of the time they do worse.

            Why do you think we will never hear this from the MSM? If the percentages were reversed, what would be the reporting from the same media?

            You know the answers to those questions as well as I do.

            A proud member of the Professional Left since 1967.

            by slatsg on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:46:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  read your own numbers (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ManhattanMan, princss6

      29% in the peer population via 38% in the charter school.

    •  Wrong. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      princss6, Huginn and Muninn

      NYC schools cost 18,000 per pupil.

      Also, Harlem Promise is passing 38% of kids when the rest of Harlem is passing only 28%. That sounds pretty good, doesn't it?

      Saying:

      "...regular NYC public schools...get better results."

      ...is deeply deceptive. The NYC aggregate numbers include Riverdale, the Upper East Side, and many of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the USA. Geoffry Canada is working in Harlem, and doing a damn fine job.

      Why do you think parents enter lotteries to get in? Are these parents stupid?

    •  Debunks? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ManhattanMan, princss6

      Neatly? Well, not so much.
      This:

      Giving administrators the ability to fire teachers for poor performance is one of the central suggestions of "Waiting for 'Superman.'

      Not one of the central suggestions of the movie at all. The movie, in fact, celebrates the value of great teachers. The word "union" is not even mentioned until one-third of the way into the movie. The part about poor teachers (the "lemon dance" et al) is only few minutes long.

      Debunks? That's like debunking a duck by plucking one ragged feather. The duck is still there. And still a duck.

      "We have so much time and so little to do. Strike that, reverse it." -- Willy Wonka

      by Huginn and Muninn on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:19:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the question that should also be asked is who (5+ / 0-)

    teaches at and administers these charter schools: are they technically scabs despite their credentialing?

    What happens is the investors who put up the money to build charter schools get to basically or virtually double their money in seven years through a thirty-nine percent tax credit from the federal government. In addition, this is a tax credit on money that they're lending, so they're also collecting interest on the loans as well as getting the thirty-nine percent tax credit. They piggy-back the tax credit on other kinds of federal tax credits like historic preservation or job creation or brownfields credits.

    "calling for a 5" deck gun is not parody. Not by a long shot." (gnaborretni),Warning-Some Snark Above

    by annieli on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:21:38 PM PDT

    •  How is this different... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      princss6

      ...from investors who buy bonds issued by school districts?

      If you loan money to schools (aka municipal bonds), the interest is tax-free.

      Those who invest in Charter Schools actually take more risk, because those bonds are not secured by the taxing authority of a local government.

      •  depends who's doing the investing (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JanL, blueoasis, Matt Z, Dirtandiron

        In 1982, the Milken Family Foundation began to study which factors had the greatest impact on student achievement. What we found was that teacher quality is far and away the most important school-related factor. In response, we launched an educator awards program to seek out, recognize and reward exceptional teachers.

        Michael Robert Milken is an American financier and philanthropist noted for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds (also called junk bonds) during the 1970s and 1980s, for his 1990 guilty plea to multiple felony charges that he violated US securities laws and for his funding of medical research. Milken was indicted on 98 counts of racketeering and securities fraud in 1989 as the result of an insider trading investigation. After a plea bargain, he pled guilty to six securities and reporting violations but was never convicted of racketeering or insider trading. Milken was sentenced to ten years in prison and permanently barred from the securities industry by the Securities and Exchange Commission. After the presiding judge reduced his sentence for cooperating with testimony against his former colleagues and good behavior, he was released after less than two years

        "calling for a 5" deck gun is not parody. Not by a long shot." (gnaborretni),Warning-Some Snark Above

        by annieli on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:44:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Michael likes to stay out of the spotlight, (8+ / 0-)

          he knows some people remember. He lets his brother Lowell be the front man. I can't believe how many people still don't get it. Have they not read Uncle Miltie ?
          It's about the money people. Upwards of $350billion per is spent on K-12 education, they want a piece of it. One of the last things Friedman wrote,
          Public Schools: Make Them Private was for the Koch funded Cato Institute. The Walton family are big donors to the privatization campaign.
          Yet the hook, line and sinker crowd continues to believe.

          •  Edison Schools Inc. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            badger, Matt Z, Azazello

            Our case study sample suggests that schools that effectively implement the wide ranging Edison curriculum, that establish Edison’s professional environment, and that operate with strong instructional leaders under limited constraints have positive achievement results. Given that Edison’s results have not been uniformly positive, the findings of this monograph suggest some actions that Edison and its current and future clients can take to promote greater consistency of results, in terms of both implementation and student achievement.(Rand report for Edison)

            1. Christopher Whittle announces the plan that becomes the Edison Project.
            1. Operations begin with contracts to run four schools.
            1. The Edison Project is running 25 schools to start the 1997--98 academic year.
            1. Edison Schools goes public with an initial offering of common stock.
            1. Edison Schools has lost more than $140 million since 1995.

            "calling for a 5" deck gun is not parody. Not by a long shot." (gnaborretni),Warning-Some Snark Above

            by annieli on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:13:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Arne Duncan said 650 billion spent K-12 (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ManhattanMan, princss6

            Lots of people get a piece of it book and test makers to bureaucrats, service providers. They have been making money for a long time. We are not complaining about them because they don't threaten the union.

        •  You are confusing... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          edtastic, princss6

          ...investments with charity.

          I am glad that Michael Milken is giving his money away to help kids. Maybe that will make some amends for the crimes he committed.

          •  That's correct, you don't know about the actual (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dirtandiron

            investors in charter schools, the structure of philanthropy in the US and you are definitely confusing investments with charity.

            "calling for a 5" deck gun is not parody. Not by a long shot." (gnaborretni),Warning-Some Snark Above

            by annieli on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:33:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Charter Schools will help destroy the Unions (13+ / 0-)

    Long term plan is to dry up Democratic funding. Destroy the perception of Public Education as having value and you will destroy the Teacher's Union. This plan has been in the works since the late 70's when the Republican Party was taken over by it's worst elements.

    Teacher's, Trial Lawyers, Scientists, any pro-Democratic group or institution is on the list.

    It isn't about policy it is about winning.

    "You know, just because the thing I saw wasn't there doesn't mean there wasn't something there that I didn't see." Ann Althouse, Conservative Thoughtmeister

    by Bill Section 147 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:22:07 PM PDT

    •  What will that do to the kids? (4+ / 0-)

      Protecting the Union from indirect threats should not be our first priority.

      •  You're correct Edtastic (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ivan, badger, Bluebirder, Dirtandiron

        Protecting unions should be the fist priority, but neither should trying to destroy them. No one cares more about kids than teachers, and teachers are the unions. this whole union bashing bull gets in the way of doing what we know works. So, you are right that protecting unions should be a priority, but changing our efforts to real reform that works instead of union bashing should be our priority. Don't you want us to get down to business?

      •  Protecting the Unions? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, NWTerriD

        This has nothing to do with Unions. If the Democrats biggest donors were yellow cheese makers then The American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation studies linking yellow cheese to childhood obesity would be a hot topic for Rush, Glenn, and Fox.

        The goal of Republican politics is to win. You and me, we are just grist for the mill.

        You are dreaming if you think the top members of the Republican Party care about our schools or their performance. Rove himself said his goal was to turn this in to a one-party state.

        Individual Republicans in your town or State may really care and might actually want these things but study the actions of the Party and you will not find much effort to improve Public Schools.

        "You know, just because the thing I saw wasn't there doesn't mean there wasn't something there that I didn't see." Ann Althouse, Conservative Thoughtmeister

        by Bill Section 147 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:12:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  How are the kids getting hurt? (7+ / 0-)

    Wall Street giving 20 million to the Harlem Children's Zone or Zuckerberg giving 100 million to Newark doesn't hurt the children. I read here that we spend 960 billion dollars a year on education. I am sure there is lots is plenty of waste and profit seeking with that kind of money but still I think we should focus on what is going on in our schools and not conspiracy theories about privatization. If it is not hurting the kids then we shouldn't worry too much.

    Too much of our discussion here is about the welfare of the adults in the system. We attack things that in some way might not be in the best interest of the Teachers Unions or there members instead of looking at ways to improve our children's education. If we eliminated all Charters and all the inflated salaries of those who run then we would still have failing schools. We would be where we were a ten to 20 years ago which wasn't a much better place than where we are now. The steady decline is not a product of privatization. The testing is not the cause of past failure since it wasn't wide spread then. Yet we spend our time attacking it as if it would solve the problem.

    Where are the diaries about solutions? Why aren't we discussing teaching methods, and administrative strategies? We spend much of our time attacking Charters and defending teachers unions. This aspect of the debate is not going to help the kids. It is not going take us back to the good old days because those days were not very good. We are still trying to fix the failure that emerged during those times doing things the way the Union still strongly defends.

    We have seen changes and the sky has not fallen. Let us keep the focus on what adults can do for the kids and not what the adults can do for each other.

    •  Do you really believe Wall street or Zuckerburg (12+ / 0-)

      are motivated by altruism? They are paying the piper and sooner or later they will want to call the tune.

    •  You gave me pause (13+ / 0-)

      I had to pause for a minute to consider the possibility that you actually believe the things that you are saying here.  

      Do you also believe that the coal and lumber companies are the best guardians of our environment?  Do you believe that the same people who run Fox News should determine how and what our children learn?  Do you really believe that private corporations, some of which are privately held and in no way accountable to the public, can be trusted to serve the public interest?  

      I took the full minute and gave you credit.  There is no way you can actually believe that stuff.

      •  Our media is privately owned, but we run schools (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        princss6

        Yes the media is a mess, because we like to watch crap on TV rather than expand our minds. Fox News has high ratings and a lot of people like it. They might get fed propaganda but that's because many people like the propaganda. We run our schools not corporate elites and we choose our curriculum and school boards. We still saw what happened in Texas with their curriculum.

        We the people are the problem not billionaires out to get us. We could take away their money and still have  culture wars. These conflicts are very old and won't go away. Fox won't determine what is taught but they might echo the views of people who would have kids taught in a way we don't like. That is democracy, we don't all have to agree and we won't always have things the way we like. You are super imposing the threat of the peoples political preferences with that of nefarious corporate influence.

    •  The elephant and the blind men (7+ / 0-)

      All of this chatter about what is wrong with our public schools and what to do about it reminds me of the old tale about the blind men describing an elephant. They conclude that the elephant is like a wall, snake, spear, tree, fan or rope, depending upon where they touch. They all believe they know what to do about the public schools depending upon where they stand. But they are missing the big picture.

      The perceived decline of public education parallels the decline of the middle class. It began in the inner cities. As the middle class collapse, which accelerated in the 1980's and continues today, reaches the suburbs and rural areas, they will see more of the problems now afflicting the urban areas. There will be a flurry of interest in "improving" the public schools by privatizing them so that people like Michelle Rhee and Geoffrey Canada can make a bundle for some corporation and get themselves enough prominence to be appointed Secretary of Education or to some corporate-funded think tank.

      Then our education system will be as profit-driven as our health care system, where only those who can pay for it get the proper treatment that everyone deserves.

      Education is a middle-class value and the primary ticket for admission to it. We will not solve the problems with education until we address the decline of the middle class.

      I want my government to be big enough to drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub.

      by sercanet on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:47:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That analysis won't help the kids (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk, princss6, SoCalSal

        It creates no imperative to do anything except continue to complain about our societies failures. We are trying to fix the schools which we do have substantial control over as opposed to the entire society which is subject to the free will of the people in it in combination with an endless array of interest and political forces that determines how it is lead.

        We can't wait to rejuvenate the middle class to improve our schools. If I was a child I would horrified to know that this is the best adults can do.

        •  Good strategy (7+ / 0-)

          We should just keep treating the symptoms and ignore the cause of the disease.

          I want my government to be big enough to drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub.

          by sercanet on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:58:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes that is the strategy (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sparhawk, ManhattanMan, princss6

            Schools are not going to get dad to stop drinking. They  have to work with the kid for the 7 hours they have them to make their lives better and to give them a chance at a better future.

            The disease is a larger problem we will won't solve in our life time. Few places on earth have done really well with these problems. A place like Finland has only 5 million people. That is just Queens and Brooklyn.

            Creating a ideal society would solve lots of problems but making that our strategy for improving education would take our focus off what we can do with our schools in the society we have today.

            •  We don't have to create Utopia (3+ / 0-)

              But we can begin to address the decline in the real income of middle class families.

              One place we can start is by allowing the Bush tax breaks for the wealthy to expire and preserving them for the middle/working class.  We can also admit that trickle-down (voodoo) economics simply doesn't produce jobs and target more federal money into job creation and infrastructure-building.

              We can either continue to make swimming against the tide our only effort or we can try to do something to stem the tide.

              I want my government to be big enough to drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub.

              by sercanet on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:35:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Say what? (0+ / 0-)

        Education is a middle-class value

        Can't wait to see this get recc'd up.  Are you kidding me?  Do you honestly believe that only the middle class values education?

        the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

        by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:52:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No suggestion of exclusivity in my comment. (5+ / 0-)

          I don't think I said that "only the middle class values education."  Sorry you chose to make that insinuation.

          Schools teach middle class values.  It is a fact of life. And public education is the only reason we HAVE a middle class beyond the merchants and professionals, as in the past.

          Education is both a middle class value AND the ticket to it.

          I want my government to be big enough to drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub.

          by sercanet on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:01:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The solutions are out there Edtastic (7+ / 0-)

      Read Marzanno and the DuFours books. They have compiled 30 years of research of what works. We know what works. Most current "reforms" are antithetical to what works, or at best a distraction. it sucks that we have to waste our time defending teachers and unions. It sucks that teachers are not even respected anymore, just thought of as interchangeable automatons. You want to get down to business Edtastic? So do we. We are about the business of implementing reform that works. Seriously, go read the Marzanno research.

      •  So where is the diary on that? (5+ / 0-)

        I would rather be reading about what should be done in the classroom than debating whether the classroom is in a public or a Charter school which has more to do with what the adults want and not what the kids need.

        •  That is my whole point edtastic (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wsexson, Dirtandiron, NWTerriD, sparkysmom

          The fight against the unions needs to end because it is the teachers who have to implement the solutions. This union bashing is an unethical distraction that needs to stop. You ust don't get it. You can't separate a teacher from it also being their livlihood, so of course people have to fight for their livlihood when it is attacked.  Also, if you really want to read about what to do in the classroom, read Marzanno or the DuFours. Real reform that works. No distractions.

          •  You're wasting your time. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ivan

            Edtastic has been told numerous times that the solutions are out there. S/he has been referred to books and other sources that would facilitate the self-education needed to make informed commentary on education reform. Edtastic would rather bash the teachers unions.

            "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

            by NWTerriD on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 12:18:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I have never heard of Marzanno and DuFours... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        princss6

        ...and will never read them.

        But if you think they know something, start a Charter School based on their principles! If your results are good, parents will bring their kids to learn in the Marzanno/DuFours style.

        (Are you sure these guys aren't the 4th and 5th Musketeers? Just kidding!)

        Anyway, Charter Schools allow for diverse educational viewpoints and styles. That's the whole point. That is why Charters are such a good idea.

    •  Education isn't just about kids (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ivan, NWTerriD

      The educational system is a fundamental underpinning of any democracy. It's basic to a modern, technological economy. Teaching, like or not, also represents hundreds of thousands of jobs where people spent 4 years or more training for those jobs at their own expense, and their incomes are significant to the communities in which they live. The caliber and even number of people attracted to those jobs, which has a real impact on educational quality, is affected by teacher salaries, and the fact that teacher salaries are even where they is because of unions in large part.

      And education is also, mostly, about helping children learn. Learning requires the active participation of the learner, which is controlled as much by home environment, the safety and physical condition of the school environment, nutrition, class sizes, the availability of resources and a lot of other things that teachers have no control over.

      Your "think of the children!" pleas seem about as sincere as the old Sally Struthers commercials.

      We aren't discussing teaching methods and similar things because you, and most of the people who agree with you, know fuck-all about teaching methods. When you've taken the requisite courses, gotten certified and spent a few years in the classroom (in front of it teaching, not just taking up space), come back and tell us about it.

      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

      by badger on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 08:54:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Charters Becoming the Rage in N.J. (8+ / 0-)

    Christie's administration has just approved a record 50 charters.  Here's just one problem with this charters-for-everyone mentality.

    Here in central NJ we have the East Brunswick school district.  East Brunswick is a high-performing, blue ribbon district with thousands of students.  Last year a Hebrew language charter school got permission to open up.  They claimed that Hebrew is a language of "trade" or some such nonsense.  It's only spoken by a few million people around the world.  In local papers, even some Jewish residents stated that the whole goal of this charter school is to get Hebrew taught to children without having to pay for the private Jewish school tuition.  They only got around 80 children enrolled for 3 grades by the summer deadline even after advertising extensively in the papers.  East Brunswick refused to pay the targeted amount that the school asked for - 110 - and only paid for the actual amount enrolled.  East Brunswick Bd. of Ed. said it has a duty to watch taxpayers' money.  

    NJ ranks consistently in the top 5 nationally for its public schools and I feel that this new-found love of charter schools will affect my kids' educations.  I will fight charters tooth & nail.  Ultimately it's all about enriching the charter school bigwigs and not the kids they claim to care about so much

  •  WE KIND OF DO KNOW WHAT WORKS (9+ / 0-)

    They have done meta analysis of thirty years of research to come up with the general things that work in schools. (Read or look up Marzanno). To say we don't know what works is not really accurate.

    1. Teachers working in collaboration and community instead of isolated competition.
    1. Highly trained teachers using research based pedagogy.
    1. An intense focus on student data and formative results.

    None of these expensive, fly by night, market based gimmicks have any evidence base. It is malpractice when we have the research to say what works, but we still let people go with their gut.

    •  Small classes generally help too. (7+ / 0-)

      As does getting away from standardized testing mania as the primary, if not the sole, measurement for student success and teacher competence.

      •  Kids Need Parents with Jobs (8+ / 0-)

        Or the whole thing is a ridiculous exercise in futility.

        Government saved the markets and sacrified its people.

        by bink on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:02:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Limited benefit (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        princss6

        Small class sizes can work, but the benefit tends to be limited to kids in very early grades, and requires that teachers be specifically trained in how to make use of the smaller class size.  If you merely decrease the class size, there's really no benefit.  In other words, it's better to have a great teacher with 20 kids than a mediocre teacher with 10.  Doesn't mean you can't get some benefit from small class size, but it's not a panacea.  

        With respect to your comment about "standardized testing mania," keep in mind that nearly every state assessment is a test of basic competency.  That is, it's a test that is, in most states, so basic that if your own child couldn't pass it, you would freak.  That was one of W's many mistakes -- he just let every state define what it meant to be competent for, say, fourth grade reading.  It created, for many states, a race to the bottom when it came to standards.    

        •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aunt Martha

          In other words, it's better to have a great teacher with 20 kids than a mediocre teacher with 10.  Doesn't mean you can't get some benefit from small class size, but it's not a panacea.

          Are you under the impression that when we talk about class sizes we are asking for classes of ten students???

          20 students would be a tiny class. My classes this year have 30-32 students per class. There is a physical limit to the amount of work a teacher, even a great teacher, can do. If a teacher has a reasonable number of students, s/he can do a much better job for each of them.

          "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

          by NWTerriD on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 12:25:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Testing mania is not about basic competency. (0+ / 0-)

          Or any other kind of competency.  It is about memorization.  I can tell you all about my students who are very good memorizers and are labeled smart because they did well on tests the subject matter of which they then forget.

          As for class size, as NWTerriD notes, you're way off base.  I'm busy grading papers right now, and let me tell you, if I had larger classes I would assign smaller and fewer papers, and my students would suffer (even if they didn't think so).

    •  We are implementing those ideas (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ManhattanMan

      It could be done in public school or a charter school. The market based idea is one of many on how to administer schools. What schools should actually be doing in the classroom would be a better conversation to have. How schools could engage their community would be a better conversation to have. Instead we are talking about how the adults in the system would prefer their schools be managed by a private or public institution.

      •  No, edtastic, you miss the mark entirely (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ivan, badger, wsexson, Dirtandiron

        What we are taking about is the deep and pervasive erosion of respect for the teaching profession. Teachers are no longer respected and we are treated like we are interchangeable cogs.

        •  I don't care. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          droy20, princss6

          We have spent the last 50 years making Teachers happy and worrying about if Teachers felt good.

          Quit talking about adults! Talk about kids. What are your proposals to teach kids?

          •  here's what I think he means... (7+ / 0-)

            As a teacher in a public school, let me give you some concrete examples from my career...

            Last year our district completely hosed the employees on our health insurance benefits. You might think, on the surface, that has nothing to do with kids. But here's the thin, it DOES affect my classes... before the change in benefits, it used to cost me $75 to go to a "walk in clinic". (Teachers get sick ALOT from being around germy kids. I get 3 or 4 sinus infections every year.) I could go to the clinic in the evenings, instead of missing time at school.  So the new health insurance plan costs $200 to go to the walk-in clinic -- which is more money than I make in a day. So it makes more financial sense for me to take a sick day and go to my regular doctor, with a $35 copay. I simply can't afford the $200 every time I get sick. The kids have a substitute teacher for the day, which isn't nearly as effective as me being there to teach them. The union fought to keep the cost for walk-in clinics low, but the district fought it because they are under pressure to keep property taxes low.

            Another example...My background is in straight science. I became a teacher post-baccalaureate, and only had to take 5 classes to become a teacher. NONE of the classes involved dealing with Exceptional students. However, now 1/3 of my students are Ex Ed. The union here fights tooth and nail to get training for regular core teachers who teach Ex Ed students. That training would serve teachers and ALL the students in those classes, not just the Ex Ed students. I WANT to be a better teacher to those students and to all my students, but I need training for some stuff. Unions help us to get that training.

            But by far the issue that our union spends the greatest amount of time fighting concerns planning time for teachers. Administrators (through no fault of their own, usually) chronically find reasons to keep teachers from taking their allotted time to plan for lessons. It's usually state-mandated meetings or supervision duties, but no matter the cause it takes teachers away from time to prep for classes and grade papers and contact parents.

            I seriously could go on and on and on about the things that unions do to help students. But perhaps the best and most effective thing is this: if you aren't in education but want to understand it, go spend some time at your local schools. Volunteer. Shadow a teacher for a week.

        •  I don't believe this is pervasive -- (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          princss6

          Teachers are no longer respected and we are treated like we are interchangeable cogs.

          That's not the attitude where I live. The comment sent me off on a search for ranking professions. Found many articles that rated teachers in the top five or ten admired professions, but not many actual polls. Here's one from Forbes, conducted in 2006, that ranks teaching #5 in most admired professions. Interestingly, the article notes that teaching has been rising in the ranks of most admired in the past fifteen years.

          On the other hand -- A nephew is a substitute teacher who tells some hair-raising stories about teenage students and their parents. Those stories are most likely about people who have no respect for any authority.

          Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person. -Jan Edwards

          by SoCalSal on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 08:42:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  We don't need to talk with you about (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ivan

        what to do in the classroom. We know what to do in the classroom. The research is in, and it's clear. The problem, at least in my case, is that 12 hours a day is not enough to do all of those things for the number of students I have, with the learning needs they have.

        "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

        by NWTerriD on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 12:27:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  School "Reform" (14+ / 0-)

    is Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" applied to education.

    Destroy
    Privatize
    Profit
    Then move on to the next target.

  •  Same old story (11+ / 0-)

    The corporate ruling class always does the same things:  increase its share of the wealth and secure its position by purchasing the government.

    The corporate ruling class looks around the world and sees few opportunities to increase its share of the wealth.  There are no more sparsely populated continents to conquer.  There are no more collapsed European empires to succeed to.  The third world either fights us or our appointed dictators demand too much of the haul.  So the ruling class looks around and it sees all that money being spent by federal and state governments.

    They pretty much own health care.  They own almost all of the military spending.  They get almost all the agriculture subsidies.  Everything spent on highways, bridges, etc., ends up in their pockets one way or another. What big chunks of those budgets is still going to the public rather than private companies?

    Social security and education.

    They want both.  They will never stop trying to get both.  

    Witness how even after they crashed the financial markets, their candidates are out there arguing that Americans should put social security into the financial markets.

    Similarly, they will never stop calling American schools "failing" and they will never stop saying that everything would be great if we could only get rid of the teachers' unions.  They want the money current spent on education to be put into their pockets.

    Think about this:  The same people who run Fox will control the American high school curriculum.

  •  How much of the rent increase was due to (0+ / 0-)
    expiration of the free rent period?  
      Landlords of commercial buildings offer incentives to new tenants that include several months to more than a year of zero or below FMV rent.  Then the actual rent kicks in. If the lease originated in the heyday of rising rents (Eg. pre-2007), then it's a double whammy when tenants get stuck paying a much higher rent than current rates.

    My Karma just ran over your Dogma

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:31:19 PM PDT

  •  The subtext of this story is that Cory Booker (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    princss6

    is a hapless sucker who needs Randi Weingarten to save him from evil hedge fund guys.

  •  Follow the money is correct! (10+ / 0-)

    This all goes back to groups like the Mackinac Center for Public Policy formed by a group of Republicans (including the DeVos & Prince Families from Michigan - can you say Amway and BlackWater?).  Their big mission has been to discredit public education and bring in charter schools who can get public funding to perpetuate "separate (but equal - yeah, right)"  policies.  Rich white folks don't want their precious children to attend schools with kids of color or non-Christians, dontchaknow.  These people have lots of influence with big banks, big energy companies, big text book companies, big media, big hedge fund companies, munitions/weapons manufacturers and, of course, own a lot of politicians.  These are scary times and people who get in their way (like Gov. Granholm of Michigan) are undermined and discredited at every turn.  Its gonna take a revolution to stop these people from ruining public education and the teachers unions who support free educational opportunities for ALL our children. Powerful anti-public school organizations will use all the dirty tactics at their disposal (such as that piece of crap movie "Waiting for Superman") to spread the seeds of discontent and lies to an increasingly ignorant American electorate - and their goal is to keep the public misinformed and fearful.

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." A. Einstein

    by moose67 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:33:42 PM PDT

    •  Sorry... (0+ / 0-)

      Rich white folks don't want their precious children to attend schools with kids of color

      They're not the only ones.  

      the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

      by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:00:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, the most important factor (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, Matt Z, NWTerriD, SoCalSal

        whether students succeed is not their skin color or their zip code or their parent's income but the importance their parents put on education - and loving and supporting their children.  Teachers are important but not as important as the attitudes of parents about setting goals, working hard, being respectful, having self-discipline, caring about others, sharing, having faith in themselves because they feel loved and valued.  When students come to class with these characteristics - they are open, curious and ready to learn.

        "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." A. Einstein

        by moose67 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:10:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  BTW - this was a snarky comment (0+ / 0-)

        illustrating "their" attitude - not mine....

        "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." A. Einstein

        by moose67 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:11:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Money makes a difference (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, Dirtandiron, princss6

    Laura Clawson notes the NY Times article about a large, traditional Massachusetts public school that has made an enormous turnaround.  That was Brockton High School.  

    It is worth looking at spending changes in the school district. According to the Massachusetts Department of Elementary and Secondary Education, for FY07, FY08, and FY09 per pupil spending was over $12,000.  Per pupil spending for previous years is not easily available via the internet.  But a Boston Globe article reported that Brockton's per pupil spending in FY04 was $7,870.  It is possible that the education department figures and the newspaper figures are not comparable.  If the figures are a legitimate comparison, then the financial change is as remarkable as the academic turnaround.

    I am convinced that money alone does not make a difference, but in schooling, as in everything else, money is very helpful.

  •  Best schools on the planet (15+ / 0-)

    Finland.

    No charter schools
    Strong teachers union
    Ethos of social cooperation instead of competition

    That's what works.

    Not this neo-con/neo-liberal, plutocratic, Blackwater style privatization of a public good.

    The bastards plundered Iraq, destroyed the US economy, tried to destroy social security, stymied health care, and now they promise to save education. Crooks and liars. Fuck 'em.

    •  Ethos of social cooperation (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sparhawk, edtastic, princss6, Lucy2009

      Uh huh. Well, as soon as you see that spreading through our fair land, along with the homogeneous population that is also Fiinland, we'll be in great shape.

      As for the "neo-con/neo-liberal, plutocratic, Blackwater style privatization of a public good," please, spare us. Today's charter schools are not exactly Dickensian redoubts of mercenary pedagogues swooping down on those poor, innocent little kids. No one—no one at all—is proposing the end of public schools. But it just might be the case that knowing that someone is nipping at your heels might be a useful goad for the public schools to try harder. Whatever they're doing now sure isn't working, and I have absolutely no problem with innovation to stave off slow death.

    •  And monolingual, monocultural society (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      princss6, hmi

      Plus a curriculum that mandates that students learn three languages (Finnish, Swedish, English) by the time they graduate from high school.

      I was almost an exchange student to Finland (following a student from Finland who'd been in my school, was my good friend, and was in my AP English class as well). My HS said I could go, and come back for one more year, or just drop out and drop into college at 15. (I had "exhausted the curriculum", or so my parents were told.) I dropped out and went to college.

      Probably would've been just fine in Finland, but not sure about another year of HS.

      The comparison to Finland is often given, but overlooks too many real differences and issues between Finland and the US, IMHO. It's a gross oversimplification at best.

      "I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.

      by paxpdx on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:15:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And don't forget for the parents: (0+ / 0-)

      3 weeks paid vacation (on top of the 2 weeks' worth of holidays Americans get) and universal health care.

      I so want to do the experiment: what happens to student test scores if you give their parents 3 weeks more paid vacation?

      Somehow, I don't think Bill Gates is going to want to fund that study. What if I'm right?

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 11:02:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Please stop perpetuating the meme... (7+ / 0-)

    ...that charter schools = Wall Street money. This falsehood only damages the real case you want to make that "corporate education" is not a realistic or desirable path.

    The truth is that many charter schools are, in fact, not funded by hedge funds or any Daddy Warbucks whatsoever. Some -- many -- of them are in fact public schools, underfunded by the districts in which they operate (sometimes receiving a third less per student than other schools in the district). The difference is made up by fundraisers and involved parents... not by evil corporations and profit-yearning banksters.

    So stop it. Just stop it. You want to slam for-profit education corporations, I'm right there with you. But don't use this as an excuse to slam all charters. Because many of them (and sorry, I don't believe your assertion that the money for charters is coming "to a significant extent" from Wall Street) are performing wonders and are working for all involved: the teachers, the parents, and -- most of all -- the students.

    "We have so much time and so little to do. Strike that, reverse it." -- Willy Wonka

    by Huginn and Muninn on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:40:00 PM PDT

    •  You're right (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      droy20, Matt Z, NWTerriD, sparkysmom

      It should not be about charter vs. traditional. Talk to the folks who want to use charters as a cudgel to bash teachers in traditional schools. There should be a place for all of it. Charter school are a niche though, and would implode if they had the burdens of trditional schools.They have a place though, but not at the expense of traditional schools.

  •  People who ruin stuff (5+ / 0-)

    So, if I got this right, we don't want the "people who ruined our economy, but suddenly we're supposed to think it's a good idea to turn them loose on our schools?" Instead, what we want are the people who have already proven largely incapable of educating our children to be protected from those vultures. Somebody want to get me a fresh deck?

    •  WTF (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      badger, blueoasis, Dirtandiron, NWTerriD

      Since when are teachers proven largely incapable of educating our students.

      Government saved the markets and sacrified its people.

      by bink on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:01:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Since the results proved unable (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ManhattanMan, princss6

        to speak for themselves. Or to read, write or calculate. But I don't entirely blame the teachers. No, I also blame their union-guilds, self-serving administrators, the politicized school boards and textbook committees (both on the right and left), the schools that claim to teach something called "education" and "certify" those who attend them ... Plenty of blame to go around. Plenty.

        •  There Are Troubling Statistics in Education (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          badger, Dirtandiron, NWTerriD, hmi

          But I think the links to teacher quality is extremely tenuous.

          The rate of students failing to graduate, for example, is directly correlated to race and poverty.

          Government saved the markets and sacrified its people.

          by bink on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:14:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here's the good news (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            princss6, hmi, SoCalSal, Lucy2009

            The strongest predictor of student achievement is teacher quality.  The New York Times had an interesting article on this a few months back:

            When researchers ran the numbers in dozens of different studies, every factor under a school’s control produced just a tiny impact, except for one: which teacher the student had been assigned to. Some teachers could regularly lift their students’ test scores above the average for children of the same race, class and ability level. Others’ students left with below-average results year after year. William Sanders, a statistician studying Tennessee teachers with a colleague, found that a student with a weak teacher for three straight years would score, on average, 50 percentile points behind a similar student with a strong teacher for those years. Teachers working in the same building, teaching the same grade, produced very different outcomes. And the gaps were huge. Eric Hanushek, a Stanford economist, found that while the top 5 percent of teachers were able to impart a year and a half’s worth of learning to students in one school year, as judged by standardized tests, the weakest 5 percent advanced their students only half a year of material each year.

             
            There's more scholarly research out there that supports this.  The problem is that the schools that have the hardest time recruiting and retaining highly effective teachers tend to be those schools that most need them.

            •  You're wasting your time... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              droy20, Lucy2009

              they don't want to hear it here.  

              the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

              by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:07:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah, I know (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                princss6, hmi, Lucy2009

                some people just want to argue.  Strangely, it actually devalues teachers -- it's a way of saying that teachers don't matter, because a student's achievement is predetermined by his or her race, economic situation, etc.  To be sure, those factors matter.  But so does teacher quality, and in a big way.

                Keep up the good work.

            •  Did you read (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ManhattanMan, NWTerriD

              own blockquote. It said that teacher quality was by far the most important of factors "under a school's control". Also the variability between the top 5% and the bottom 5% doesn't seem all that great.

              •  What? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                princss6

                First, you need to read past those four words you're dwelling on.

                Second, you don't think the difference between the bottom 5% (1/2 year's worth of learning) and top 5% (1 1/2 year's worth) is that great?  

                That's insane.  

                First grade kids with good teacher start second grade ahead of the pack.

                First grade kids with bad teacher start second grade still at first grade level.

            •  Why are you misrepresenting the point of (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ivan

              the very article you're quoting?

              every factor under a school’s control

              Did you catch that phrase "under a school's control"? Here are a few things that are not under a school's control:

              Student's socioeconomic status

              Parents' education level

              Parents' attitude toward education

              Student's mental, physical or emotional health, including whether the child eats a good breakfast, a breakfast that is mostly sugar, or no breakfast and how much sleep a student gets at night.

              Whether students do homework or study

              Whether students come to kindergarten ever having held a book or had one read to them, much less familiar with the alphabet and able to count to ten

              Home language

              Whether students are homeless, living through a divorce, responsible for running the household and acting as surrogate parents for younger siblings while their parent(s) is/are at work, are regularly abused (physically, sexually, or emotionally) by the adults in their life, or whether those adults are addicts or substance abusers

              Those are a few of the factors "not under a school's control" that have a visible impact on student learning.

              "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

              by NWTerriD on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 12:40:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And when you show a study... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Linda Wood

                that shows the correlation between student achievement and your list of conditions, you will have some credibility.

                the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

                by princss6 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 04:04:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's snark, right? (0+ / 0-)

                  Every study that has ever been done in education has shown a correlation between student achievement and the factors I listed. Do you really not know that?

                  "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

                  by NWTerriD on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 05:27:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  As you know (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            droy20, princss6

            correlation ≠ causation. Are you suggesting that race and poverty are causes of failure? Because I, absolutely, am not. Even as a correlation, it is wide open to historical difficulties and/or anomalies. And ultimately, I'm not even at present so much concerned with who isn't even graduating, as with the mediocre to poor quality of those that actually get a HS diploma.

    •  Yep...you nailed it... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hmi, Lucy2009

      Instead, what we want are the people who have already proven largely incapable of educating our children to be protected from those vultures.

      Truth

      the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

      by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:05:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Kinda meta comment (6+ / 0-)

    Charter schools seem to be the latest flame war kindling around here.

    Sad to see that we are not all united in trying to strengthen public education. Do we or do we not believe in the common good, and that the function of government is to promote it and the general welfare? Too many Ds are running away from that core value--see, for example, support for mandates to buy private health insurance.

    There are moments when the body is as numinous as words, days that are the good flesh continuing. -- Robert Hass

    by srkp23 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:45:18 PM PDT

    •  I think... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ManhattanMan

      that if charters were unionized, we wouldn't be having this "meta war."  

      the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

      by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:09:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe there are unionized charters (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ivan, NWTerriD

        I oppose charters because the educational system should be designed - and improved - to educate every student, not just those in certain districts or a few lucky lottery winners. I don't see lotteries as retirement planning or good educational policy.

        Unionization is always brought up first by charter advocates or people, like you, who are more interested in bashing unions and teachers than learning about what's really necessary to provide a good education to students. Taken an education course lately?

        Charters, largely, are also becoming a vehicle for the wealthy to push their particular educational agenda, and for the greedy to suck more taxpayer funding to fatten their bottom line. Agree that all charters should be non-profits, locally managed, and with strict limits on administrator salaries and salaries of anyone else affiliated with management (say, comparable to what public school teachers and administrators earn), and one objection I have would go away. But not all of my objections.

        If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

        by badger on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 09:12:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  BS and more BS... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ManhattanMan

          Unionization is always brought up first by charter advocates or people, like you, who are more interested in bashing unions and teachers than learning about what's really necessary to provide a good education to students. Taken an education course lately?

          Oh really, now.  Such simple-mindedness is alarming from you.  You obviously have not read my posts.  To take everything I've said and boil it down to bashing unions and teachers is a falsehood bordering on a lie.  But carry on with your delusions.

          the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

          by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 09:16:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Here is a little story about Girls Prep Charter (6+ / 0-)

    Girls Prep.

    In a nutshell:  Girs Prep is a charter middle school located in public elementary school in Manhattan.  The elementary school also housed a public school for autistic children.  Joel Klein thought it would be just swell to relocatate the autistic children in order to allow Girls Prep to expand.  The parents of the autistic students and others balked and balked loudly.  The state said Joel Klein can NOT move the autistic children, Joel Klein then invoked "emergency powers" claiming the expansion was necessary for the health, safety, and welfare of the Girls Prep students.  Because of the outcry, Girl Prep decided to pursue alterative locations.

    This is one of the problems I have with charters - it takes needed space and resources from existing public schools in NYC.

    Something strange is going on.  High schools that are turning around are being closed and replaced with smaller schools as part of Klein's small schools initiative. Often, these are "selective" schools requiring certain test scores and grades.  

    •  Selective schools already exists in NYC (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      princss6

      We have gifted programs which serve the same purpose. I don't see any debate about that. The top 3 high schools always required a test to get in. New York allows children to choose what high school they want to attend and there are a lot of specialized high schools.

      •  I am a NYC public parent (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z, Dirtandiron, edtastic, princss6

        I was illuminating the process for others.  I have an 11th grader at one most desirable non-specialized schools and an 8th grader who is less than stellar and am very worried as to where he ends up.

        When I was doing middle schools (D15) for both my kids approximately 20% of the students were not placed anywhere initially.  And we all see the stories every year about high school students not being placed and then the only options left are not so great and often far from their homes.

      •  close bronx science (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        princss6

        and stuyvesant

        and hunter college high

        When Livingstone street shows that it can take care of the kids in the south bronx with 1/2 of the care it lavishes on the lincoln center district, I'll listen to complaints about charter schools

        •  I think 110 Livingston went condo (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dirtandiron

          everything now happens at Tweed.

        •  Of course (0+ / 0-)

          Because the one thing we know is that if we cut off the resources for nurturing our best students, this can only be of benefit to our worst. And in any case, what right have those Bronx Science students to succeed so long as anyone else is failing? If those leeches are doing well, it must be at the expense of the others. And after all, quality can take care of itself.

          Gotta go now and re-read Brave New World, just in case I forgot something. [Note to self—make sure we remove Brave New World from the curriculum. Wouldn't want anyone to feel bad.]

  •  Waiting for bated breath... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ManhattanMan

    for your expose on the money trail behind the anti-charter movement.  Next story?

    the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

    by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:55:32 PM PDT

  •  The biggest fear I have of charter schools... (8+ / 0-)

    Comes from watching what happened to 'Public' broadcasting in this country.  Cuts in government funding left NPR and PBS dependent on support from major corporate donors.  As soon as that happened, NPR and PBS started becoming more business friendly, and we saw a shift from stories critical of business to more neutral and pro-business stories.

    The same will happen with charter schools operated by people dependent on Wall Street.  Children will be taught how corporations and finance have made this a better place, and the history of the labor movement will get even less mention.

    In college I majored in politics and played with computers. Now I work with computers and make politics a hobby.

    by rhonan on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:55:58 PM PDT

    •  Schools are business friendly (0+ / 0-)

      It's not like they are attacking capitalism, they are just glossing over world and American History and the rest of the subjects don't relate to any special interest unless your a creationist.

      I don't think we can compare it to PBS. If corporations ran a school they would probably teach kids the same things. Schools don't spend much time on the labor movement or political debates. They just knock of a list of common knowledge major events and keep it moving.

  •  Of Course They Love Charter Schools (7+ / 0-)

    It's public money that they can get their hands on.

    Government saved the markets and sacrified its people.

    by bink on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:58:11 PM PDT

  •  Public schools have been corporate for a long tim (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wsexson, esquimaux, princss6

    I wish I could remember the title of the book I read about 20 years ago, but it was a history of public schooling in America. By the 1950s, public schools were seen not as educational institutions but worker training facilities. The bells, the time-oriented instead of task-oriented curriculum, the submission to authority, were all designed to produce willing tools of industry. Every effort to change schooling to an education rather than indoctrination has resulted in even stricter school programs. Today's public school is little different from a prison.

    "Maybe life's meaning is not so much found, as it is made." Opus, by Berke Breathed

    by Lisa in Bama on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:59:19 PM PDT

  •  And this is different in public schools... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ManhattanMan

    There's a lot of money to be made in charter schools

    How?

    the most important factor whether students succeed is not their skincolor or their ZIP code or their parents' income - it is the quality of their teacher

    by princss6 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 05:59:38 PM PDT

  •  That Goes Both Ways..... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    citizen k, ManhattanMan, princss6, hmi

    These are the people who ruined our economy, but suddenly we're supposed to think it's a good idea to turn them loose on our schools?

    Why do you think the parents in 'Waiting For Superman' are willing to struggle, scrape, and put themselves through a process that depends on balls bouncing the rights way in a lottery in order to attend a school that might be better than the one everyone in the community knows sucks? In many inner-city neighborhoods, that are predominantly poor & minority residents, there is a loss of trust in the public school system.

    I grew up in a small town outside Memphis. The Memphis City School System has been a disaster for as long as I remember. It's run by a school board that spent almost a decade losing money trying to put air conditioners in schools, and somehow not accomplishing that task, resulting in schools not being able to operate on summer days. The same school board has also lost money paying contractors for school buildings that were never built, and spent thousands of dollars on comfortable chairs for council meetings while the schools still didn't have air conditioners. And while all that happened, the schools in Memphis were among the lowest performing in the state of Tennessee.

    District wide: average ACT 17.5; only 6% "college ready"

    So, when the politicians come to citizens to support a tax increase for more school funding, their response a lot of times is: These are the people who ruined our economy ran these schools into the ground, but suddenly we're supposed to think it's a good idea to turn them loose on our schools throw more money at the same dysfunctional system run by the same idiots who couldn't install air conditioners in schools?

    In fact, Memphis has separate city & county governments, which is a huge waste of resources. But one of the biggest obstacles to consolidation is Shelby Country residents, whose children attend Shelby County public schools, don't want anything to do with the Memphis City School System.

  •  Re (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ManhattanMan, princss6

    The question of money is seeded through the debate over education, in several ways. This week I want to focus first on the way money most immediately factors in the current political debate; namely, where is the money behind the push for charter schools coming from?

    Answer: To a significant extent, the money for charter schools is coming from Wall Street, and in particular from hedge fund managers.

    Money for virtually everything comes from Wall Street: that's what they do is finance things.

    This public transportation project just killed by Christie: where do you think the money was coming from? Wall Street buying state bonds.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:11:50 PM PDT

  •  Shhh... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ivan

    The olz-tray are izzy-bay.

    I want my government to be big enough to drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub.

    by sercanet on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:14:59 PM PDT

  •  Not surprised one bit. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ivan, wsexson, Dirtandiron

    Get rid of the tax breaks, get these parasites out of public education and TAX the hell out of their speculation.

  •  Horrors!! People can get rich by starting good (6+ / 0-)

    schools.

    We sure don't want that to happen.
    Next thing you know, we'll have a shortage of crappy schools.
    Then where will we be?

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:29:40 PM PDT

    •  No, people can get rich by starting SCHOOLS (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      The evidence is not yet in on whether or not they are good.

      "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France

      by stophurtingamerica on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:34:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, people CAN get rich by starting good schools (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        droy20, ManhattanMan, princss6, hmi

        They might also be able to get rich by starting crappy schools, but the reality of how charters operate tend to mitigate against that.  Charters do not compel their student bodies to attend -- parents and students choose to do so.

        Given the public school alternatives that many charter school students face, the bar doesn't even need to be very high.  There IS a fair amount of evidence on that.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:41:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not sure about that (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ManhattanMan, dinotrac, princss6

          I actually doubt that anyone can can get rich -- or even turn any kind of profit -- running a charter school.  Even a fantastic one.  Charters receive far less funding than similarly situated traditional public schools (study here).  I'm sure there's an example or two out there of someone making a buck off charters (probably from Ohio or Arizona, where there's poor quality control, or maybe from virtual schools that don't have to pay for facilities).  But, by and large, anyone who gets into charters to make a buck is a fool.

          I know you weren't arguing against charters.

          And, by the way, you're right about the bar, in most cases, being really low.    

          •  You'r right. I wasn't arguing against (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            princss6

            charters, but rejecting the suggestion that people might make money opening them is a bad thing.

            I don't know how rich anybody can get from charter schools, but...

            I'll bet there are more than a few Chicago parents, for example, who wouldn't be that upset if somebody made a few bucks offering their kids safe and effective alternatives to the local public schools.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:46:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Charters often get more funding (0+ / 0-)

            than traditional public schools. This is especially true of the prominent Potemkin charters that get donations from rich charter advocates. In my state charters don't run buses or athletic programs.

          •  The path to riches appears to be (0+ / 0-)

            through providing services and real estate rather than operating profit per se.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 11:07:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Look at where we wind up. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eumaies, edtastic, princss6, hmi, SoCalSal, willkath

    We have gone through so many contortions and twists and mental doublethinking to defend Teachers' Unions.

    We are so far down the rabbit hole that when Rich People give millions of dollars to help Poor People we whine and wail against it. The nerve of those Rich People! They have the gall to fund schools for Poor People! Ahhhggg!

    I think it's time to take a step back and look at this situation with fresh eyes. Seriously.

    •  We are talking hedge fund managers here (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ivan, wsexson, esquimaux, Dirtandiron

      people who made millions buying up bad mortgages, and credit default swaps, etc.  people who saw the writing on the wall, saw that their actions would unimaginably harm the economy as a whole, and kept going, to drag every cent out of it they could.  Forgive me if I am distrustful of their motives.

      "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France

      by stophurtingamerica on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:37:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't talk bullshit... (0+ / 0-)

        ...about things you don't understand.

        Hedge funds are different from banks.

        •  wow. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ivan

          that was so very uncalled for.  And hedge funds DID snap up CDS's and mortgage backed securities.  I KNOW they are different from banks.  I also don't need to prove what I know or understand just because you didn't like my statement.  I also don't need to shut up because you tell me to.  

          "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." - Anatole France

          by stophurtingamerica on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:02:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Absolutely! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      Think of all the harm that would have befallen these wealthy individuals if they had just paid taxes in the first place instead of getting the Bush tax breaks, then using a portion of their windfalls to start schools and getting even more tax deductions (and adulation) for themselves.

      Why, they might even turn this tax-sheltered hobby into a money-making concern.

      I want my government to be big enough to drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub.

      by sercanet on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 06:46:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Enron Does Education (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, Dirtandiron, Azazello

    There is no compelling reason to add profit into the public education equation. Tony Judt, in his excellent book "Ill Fares the Land," points out that privatization of traditional government services has proven inefficient in practice. The government typically sells the business or facility to the private firm at a loss, and the firm then runs it into the ground. The government then has to step back in after paying year after year of subsidies, and the private firm gets away with the profits it made. Think ENRON, and let's not have the same thing happen to the public school system!  We need a better balance involving involving more nationalized industries and fewer private concerns.

  •  Great diary, and fascinating subject. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slatsg, NWTerriD, princss6

    Where there is a will there is a way. These children are capable of learning, and it's imperative that we teach them.

    We already know some basic things that help, such as.....kids well fed, adequate HC, good sleep, off of drugs, smaller class size, abundant tutors, interested/energetic teachers, phys ed, music, arts, tailor curriculum to students long term interests/goals, etc.

    These are all doable things. It simply requires the willingness of the populace/Congress to supply the funds to get them done.

    We as a country will have to decide very soon, do we want to be a 3rd world idiot nation, or do we want to be leaders/innovators and prosperous. It's quite stark really with not alot of gray areas.

    Giving hedge fund people tax incentives to do public "good work" is ridiculous. That should be rescinded immediately, along with their 15% tax rate, or whatever it is. Then we should use the extra taxes to beef up our public school system and implement some sensible, proven measures.

    If folks can get it together to send their kids to private schools, good for them. However, all the other kids need to have the SAME opportunities in our public school system. That should be the goal.

    I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

    by Lucy2009 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:03:59 PM PDT

  •  Excellent Post Laura (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    droy20, esquimaux

    I am a recent college graduate who is extremely interested in working in education policy in the future. I am currently working as a near-peer mentor at a middle school in Los Angeles in which the feeder high school has a 50% dropout rate. The sad thing is that most of these kids want to succeed and learn, however the system that we currently have is extremely out of date-especially with the technological change over the past 20 years. We need to hold teachers, kids, and parents accountable. This is not a simple problem, and there is no simple solution. I think Michelle Rhee, love her or hate her puts it best when she argues that to truly set forth an equal system, we need to have President Obama's kids attend the same school as children who live around Metro DC. I went to a public high school and a top 20 private school so I have seen both sides of the spectrum. I strongly believe that we need to look for ways that public schools can compete for students much like private schools, and trust me I am not a fan of private schools and their role in stratifying society

    "If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law."-Thoreau

    by mishal817 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 07:16:03 PM PDT

    •  I would love to hear more about (0+ / 0-)

      how you would change the school system to better meet their needs. You mention technology, which suggests to me you have something in mind.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Sun Oct 17, 2010 at 11:09:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what i'm trying to get at (0+ / 0-)

        is that the system is archaic--1 teacher, 25 students, chalk/whiteboard. Kids now grow up with technology ingrained into them (think video games, television, etc)--things that form their minds. We could harness that technology in lower performing schools, but it is not east by any means and will take a lot of time.

        "If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law."-Thoreau

        by mishal817 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 08:13:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is such crap (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    elfling, NWTerriD, fisher1028, Azazello
    Anyone involved in education knows what makes a good school.  A good principal who has vision, who can bring staff into creating and implementing that vision, and parents who are concerned about their children's education.  If parents don't come in on their own the school needs to bring them in wayz that make them want to be part of it.

    Students have to know that all the adults involved put the best interests of the students first.  The curriculum has to be challenging and cause students to push their limits.

    And finally, teachers have to be able to inspire.

    I've gone to and worked at enough schools to have seen what works and what doesn't.  And business does NOT know how to run a school

    •  Small class size rules! (0+ / 0-)

      And education starts in the womb with early intervention 9 months before kids are born!

    •  How can you say... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      princss6

      that "business does NOT know how to run a school?"

      How can it be true that not one single business man or women can run a school?  Shouldn’t we look at each individual situation?  Don't a lot of good teachers and administrators come from the business world?  Don’t a lot of good teachers and administrators go on to successful careers in the business world?  It seems to me the skill sets are probably very similar.  

      I agree about what makes a good school, but parents are often the best judge of that.  Every kid is different and every good school has weaknesses.  

      If fixing schools was so simple, smart folks like you would have fixed it by now.  And, until the problem is fixed, charters are the only answer for thousands of kids.  Just ask their parents.

  •  dailykos once again fails at policy analysis (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    princss6

    i shouldn't be surprised at this, but reading the collection of half-baked theories and one-off random scatterings of "evidence" in these comment threads, it seems pretty apparent to me that the accumulation of front-page inspired conspiracy theories in the topic of education here has completely drowned out any rational, nuanced or fact-based debate.

    with regards to the original post, the policy you seem to take issue with is the "New Markets tax credit."  Good for you.  How you go from there to once again smear the charter school movement as a whole is a stretch worthy of Glen Beck.

    My first job out of college was working in the reform movement in Massachusetts.  Massachusetts public schools, their semi-equalized funding across rich and poor districts, their standards based reforms and yes their great high-quality standardized tests that link to standards are all awesome and contributors to their success.  I love massachusetts' ed reform efforts.  I also love many of the successful reformers in the charter school movement, who you are once again smearing as a group by association and implied accusations.

    I'm glad I don't go to dailykos to get well grounded information.  It's pretty much just a rumour mill at this point - but also fortunately it can be a useful site for getting involved in GOTV.  Maybe you should focus more on that and less on readers' "education."

     

  •  Quibble: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Linda Wood

    I know i'm late and this is probably addressed somewhere in this 300 comment thread, but this has to be said about your claim about the Massachusetts school From Your LINK:

    Dr. Ferguson said Brockton High first "jumped out of the data" for him early last year. He was examining Massachusetts’ 2008 test scores in his office in Cambridge, and noticed that Brockton had done a better job than 90 percent of the state’s 350 high schools helping its students to improve their language arts scores.

    Brockton did better than 90% at improving it's students language art scores.  Saying that they are out performing 90% of other Massachusetts schools is a half-truth, if not an outright distortion.  I realize that the NY Times story does the exact same thing, but I'm shocked that this gets glossed over every time the Brockton schools are discussed.

    •  I'm glad you pointed this out, (0+ / 0-)

      but what I read in the article is that by improving it's students language art scores, Brockton High had raised achievement in all subjects. They had eliminated their tracking system and had emphasized Reading and Writing in all subjects.

      This is a key point in this complex discussion. I believe some school districts in this country have been tracking students, sometimes by family income, into different educational programs that produce different skills levels and that this manifests itself as an Achievement Gap between rich and poor.

      By leveling the playing field and giving ALL students strong Reading and Writing skills, Brockton High raised its students' abilities to achieve success in all subjects.

      If you receive confusing, disabling reading instruction in the 1st through 3rd grades, you will struggle from then on. If you can't read, you cannot do much in school but suffer.

  •  You quote (0+ / 0-)

    Richard Rothstein of the Economic Policy Institute:

    Consider the implications of this catastrophe for our aspirations to close the black–white achievement gap. The national unemployment rate remains close to an unacceptably high 10%. But 15% of all black children now have an unemployed parent compared to 8.5% of white children.

    In the last 10-12 years there has been a trend in our country away from both parents working full time, especially when children are pre-school aged. This is true for all income levels.

    I personally think this trend has had an impact on mortgage defaults, which is to say, lenders who thought parents could just get a third job in order to meet the adjustable rate increase guessed wrongly. Increasingly, families are deciding, especially when their children are preschool aged, that the stress and financial costs of child care cancel out the good of having a higher income. And so, when you say children have an unemployed parent, that could be a choice, even a good choice, and even a logical choice on the part of the parents.

    http://www.webmd.com/...

    Hard Choice for Moms: Work or Stay Home?
    You've got a new baby and a mortgage to pay for, so should you go back to work or stay home to raise Junior? In a change in trend, more women are considering the stay-at-home option.
    By Dulce Zamora - WebMD Feature Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD
    Mothers with the financial means have long had the choice to go back to work or stay home after the birth of their children. Today, however, more moms in all economic levels appear to be considering the stay home option - at least that's what some experts suspect when they point to recent population surveys, which show all female employment numbers declining after decades of sustained growth.

    "The employment decline is apparent among all income groups, roughly equally," says Philip Cohen, PhD, associate professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    Employment figures for married mothers with children under age 6 have dropped 7% to 10% since the peak years of 1997 to 2000, depending on the income group, says Cohen. Overall, the work participation rate for all women dropped 1.5% from 2000 to 2004, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

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