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Regardless of who wins on Tuesday, this election, like so many others will be close. The democrats could start winning elections handily for years to come, if they would embrace one issue...GUNS.

I'm a democrat. I probably could be classified as a liberal. And like about 30% of democrats, I am a gun owner. 65% of republicans are gun owners. I believe that they are gun owners first and republicans second. They embrace the republican party because they are convinced (with some basis in fact) that democrats want to take away their gun rights.
I enjoy hunting. I'm not writing to argue the merits of my sport. I live in Northern California. I've heard all the anti hunting arguments. I have been subject to derision. I enjoy hunting. Get over it.
ALL the people I have hunted with (with one exception) vote republican. In many cases, these hunters are voting against their own economic and political interests, for one reason only. Gun ownership. All other arguments about corporate take over of our economy, deficits, healthcare, choose your topic, are ignored, because in their minds, the democrats are coming to take their guns.
If the democratic party could push their rabid gun controllers to the fringe and open the doors to the NRA, at least declare a truce with the NRA, I am convinced that some of the hearts and minds of those 65% of republicans who embrace their guns, would open up to the democratic agenda. It's in their best interest to do so. It is also in the best interest of the democratic party. Imagine the election results if only 10% of republican gun owners voted democratic. Landslide.

Originally posted to pbyer on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 04:55 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  For whatever you are about to receive, may you (4+ / 0-)

      be eternally grateful :-)

    •  Another myth (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gooderservice, lenzy1000, thomask

      Obama has been extremely gun friendly. For example, signing into law a bill that allows guns in our national park. The simple matter is, rural voters like guns for hunting. Urban/suburban voters want gun laws because guns are used for violence, NOT hunting for food or recreation.

      Bi-partisanship is a MEANS, not an ENDS.-Barney Frank Feb 2009

      by sd4david on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:05:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There was the flap over ammunition (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buddabelly, erush1345

        and the South Korean rifles thing.

        And people very much noticed Holder talking about bringing back the "Assault Weapons" Ban. (which, btw, got more GOP than Dem senate votes IIRC)

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:36:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Has anyone ever (0+ / 0-)

        given a serious thought to just how the hell we could or would gather up all the guns?  I mean, really.  Even if there was a will to do it, a mandate, just how the hell could it possibly be done?

        This stupid and unrealistic nonsense of taking away guns has been a GOLD MINE for the Gun Manufacturers and the ammo makers.  That's all that it is about.

        I have never known a dem that said they wanted to get rid of all the guns. . .there may be some out there somewhere, but I have never known one.

        You don't need Assault rifles or AK 47's to hunt deer or wild game.  Don't pretend you do.

        Me personally?  I don't own a gun and never want to again.  Don't care if you do or not.  But I would prefer they were not in the hands of the crazy folks out there that think they are a reincarnation of a John Wayne character from the movies. And those who are just plain mentally ill.

        Just like everything else, we need some rules sometimes about somethings.  Get over it.

        JMO

        *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

        by Shirl In Idaho on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:05:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And. . . . (0+ / 0-)

          I'm a very good shot too.  30/30, 30/06, 45, 12 gauge, 22 rifle and hand gun, pretty damn good with all of them.

          There is just nothing I want to kill.  And that's basically what guns are for, killing.  Just my preference not to kill things any more.

          *the blogger formerly known as shirlstars

          by Shirl In Idaho on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:08:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I see what you're getting at.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buddabelly

      But landslide is an exaggeration.

      And those Republican NRA voters simply don't trust Democrats, period.

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:41:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you're right we can't pry away the republics but (0+ / 0-)

        the indys who also vote based on this we can pick off.

        Our group here advocates basically this but not in quite the same way......

        "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

        by buddabelly on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:53:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yet Democrats have not taken anyone's guns (23+ / 0-)

    They are self replicating their own irrational fears by believing this myth.  

    When we got into office, the thing that surprised me most was to find that things were just as bad as we'd been saying they were. -JFK

    by optimusprime on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 04:59:17 PM PDT

  •  Uh... like...? (8+ / 0-)

    (with some basis in fact)

    Just because the NRA says it doesn't make it true.

    •  basis in fact (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib, erush1345

      Are you telling me that you don't think gun control is an unwritten plank of the democratic party? If democratic politicians would give as much VERBAL support to a person's right to own a gun as they do a woman's right to choose, working people in America would view our party in a whole different light. Currently, which party is perceived to be the guardians of constitutional rights? Your are kidding yourself if your answer is the democratic party. The republican party picks and chooses what rights it will support. Appartly so do the democrats. Just not the same ones.

      •  It's Democratic party, big D, (0+ / 0-)

        plus you're full of it claiming that the Republican (again big R) party is perceived as the guardians of Constitutional rights. Bush v. Gore anyone? Citizens United?

        "We believe that the people are the source of all governmental power; that the authority of the people is to be extended, not restricted."-Barbara Jordan

        by sancerre2001 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:17:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sancerre - regarding Citizens United (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sancerre2001, erush1345

          You mention the repugs support for the majority decision in Citizens United (CU) as an example of how they are not guardians of the Constitution. Many liberal lawyers (including some on this site) and Constitutional scholars, while they don't like the result, believe that majority got CU right on the law. There is certainly no uniform view in the legal community that CU was decided incorrectly or that opposing the majority view is any defense of the Constitution.

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:57:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I said "like?" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sancerre2001, A Citizen

        which means "what are the facts you're talking about?" And you ask me if I don't "think gun control is an unwritten plank of the democratic party"...

        Again, facts? Got any?

        Just call me firepants.

        by indiemcemopants on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:21:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  actually renewing the expired and worthless (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          "Assault Weapon" ban was a part of the party platform in the 08 election....

          Also unfortunately there are Dems with high profiles like Feinstein and Schumer who are very much in favor of more gun control and again unfortunately talk about it.....while both having CCW licenses for themselves...

          For the most part I agree that the majority of the party has dropped it but it will be trotted out all too often......

          This is why our group works here, but we do it from an explicitly liberal perspective......hell most of us are raging tree hugging otter scrubbing long haired communofasaziberals.....and damn proud of it......

          "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

          by buddabelly on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:01:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely (4+ / 0-)

        The idea that gun control is an "unwritten plank of the Democratic Party" is both absurd and a complete fiction. This "Democrats want to take your guns!" business is pure propaganda. The people who fall for it would never be convinced no matter how much time and energy the Democrats spent trying to embrace guns, and nothing the Democrats could do would get the NRA on our side.

        The wolfpack eats venison. The lone wolf eats mice.

        by A Citizen on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:29:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  not defending the NRA but they did endorse (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erush1345

          a potful of Democrats this year....Like 60 House members iirc.....Still way more republics but I'll take the endorsements we got.....and work for more next time......

          "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

          by buddabelly on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:03:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'll grant you this: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        yet another liberal

        I've actually emailed Ed Schultz on this, since he's a liberal gun owher and hunter.
        I think some progressive, moderate and just responsible adult gun owners who have a significant media profile or status in the business world should form a new gun rights organization to challenge the NRA. One that would staunchly defend the basic right to bear arms, but would put equal emphasis on responsible adult behavior regarding guns, would open up a dialogue about gun worship and fetishizing, and would take on some of the outrageous gun dealer loopholes that are responsible for facilitating violent crime.
        If we had that, then maybe we could have an adult discussion about guns. Right now we can't because of the infantilism involved in the gun-fetish movement.

        •  The think about gun ownership (0+ / 0-)

          is that when you talk to people in real life, across all political spectrums, you get a healthy exchange of informed ideas. It really is one of the few areas where real Americans are willing to compromise with each other for the greater good. The NRA prevents real progress from occurring.

      •  Are you an idiot? (0+ / 0-)

        "Unwritten plank?"

        Wait, so there's a position that's not in the platform and Democrats haven't made a serious move towards in 16 years and yet somehow you think the party, as a whole, holds?

        You know who disagrees with you? The NRA. They've endorsed a surprising number of Democrats this cycle. They know they've won the battle.

        In answer to my first question, Yes, yes you are.

      •  "unwritten plank"? you bit the lie (0+ / 0-)

        you need to try to ignore the lies of the GOPers and try to just report the truth. The NRA and other propagandists use the 'big lie' to scare people into thinking democrats are doing things they are not doing. There is no such thing as any "unwritten plank" and your arguement goes to shit if you repeat bullshit.

        btw, I'm a hunter for food on my reservation in South Dakota and my guns are a part of my tool box.

      •  Newsflash-- (0+ / 0-)

        like I told my repub friend who is always frothing at the mouth about gun control, as long as I've been active in party politics [since Howard Dean], I've rarely heard anyone talk about guns.  It's hardly on our radar.  Sure, there are people who want to ban guns entirely; however, they aren't predominant.

        I do agree that dems could get more support from gun-owning people, especially when emphasizing a law and order approach [like illegalizing cop killer bullets].  As long as gun owners genuinely believe that dems want to take away all guns, [and as long as dems don't do any message control to rebut ridiculous claims--as usual], I don't see the dems peeling away very many politically agnostic gun-owners from the repubs.

        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:08:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Meh (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wblynch

    I will never embrace guns. I think they're stupid. You want to hunt something, use a bow. Hell, craft yourself a spear. You want to fight, use your hands, or swords. These techniques got the human race by for a few decades or so...

    "We must move forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!"

    by Purdue219 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:04:36 PM PDT

    •  as a disabled kossak, I'll stick with my (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345

      Smith and Wesson thanks....you have fun with that sword fight now..........

      And just for an fyi, rifle hunting done right is considerably more humane than hunting with broadheads and a compound........With proper shot placement, a deer just drops with a rifle....with an arrow they have to bleed out internally most often though there is the occasional instant drop ....

      The less pain and fear, the better the meat....fear floods the meat with adrenalin which really craps up the taste.....

      "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

      by buddabelly on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:08:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •   If only... (10+ / 0-)

    ...this had been done months ago we'd be sitting pretty now.

    /snark

    Oh, there you are, Perry. -Phineas -SLB-

    by boran2 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:04:37 PM PDT

  •  I swear (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fly, MrSandman, A Citizen, bagman

    You guys are paranoid.

    They tortured people to get false confessions to justify invading Iraq.

    by yet another liberal on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:06:03 PM PDT

  •  Democrats conceeded gun control (7+ / 0-)

    years ago. There is no basis in fact to what you say.

    "We believe that the people are the source of all governmental power; that the authority of the people is to be extended, not restricted."-Barbara Jordan

    by sancerre2001 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:07:06 PM PDT

  •  in some urban communities shootings are the (0+ / 0-)

    number one cause of death - do these communities count for some reasonable restrictions on gun onwership?

  •  Given exactly equal ratings here in #VA05 (0+ / 0-)

    The NRA still endorsed Tom Perriello over Hurt.  Another endorsement was the League of Conservation Voters, so I see that there can be a bridge across seemingly disparate groups.

    I know this doesn't add anything substantiative - just wanted to add that

    When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel -- it's vulgar. ~Molly Ivins

    by mydailydrunk on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:08:19 PM PDT

    •  is Periello the incumbent? if so that's (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345

      just NRA policy....the main reason they endorsed so many Dems this year is equal ratings get the incumbent the endorsement.....

      "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

      by buddabelly on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:11:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  i think more democrats just need to speak up (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erush1345

    i don't own a gun but i don't have a problem with people owning guns.  even people living in big cities.  i think that if cities ban automatic weapons within city limits that just fine, but not all guns.  people need to be taught the fact about being responsible about guns.  just like kids and sex.  being against guns is about as unrealistic as being against sex.  

    We live in hard time. Not end times. - Jon Stewart

    by bluefaction on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:08:28 PM PDT

  •  Bogus Issue. (8+ / 0-)

    The Democrats haven't made an issue of guns at all. And that's a fact even though there have been the usual, terrible instances of gun-ownership abuse: gun-owners shooting people all over the country, true? Thousands.

    Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

    by Otherday on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:09:22 PM PDT

  •  guns haven't even been an issue (6+ / 0-)

    this entire campaign.

    oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

    Twitter: @DanteAtkins

    by Dante Atkins on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:10:09 PM PDT

  •  This is dumb (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buddabelly, erush1345

    But I kind of agree. I think guns are one of the issues that we could embrace without sacrificing our ideals, and really gain some voters from it. I think most people have to admit, at this point, that even in places with strict gun laws, kids still find a way to bring them to school, shoot themselves, etc.

    I draw the line, however, at being able to carry guns into places like schools and government facilities.

    Proud supporter of nuclear power!

    by zegota on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:12:25 PM PDT

  •  many Democrats live in large cities, where (4+ / 0-)

    they do not hunt. Whether they choose to keep a gun for self-defense, or to shoot at the range is their own decision.  Many or most probably have no problems with people wanting to hunt in the countryside.  However, they do not necessarily think that the NRA's stated goal of allowing concealed carry of handguns in every store, church, amusement park, office building and school to be in their best interest.   Nor do they benefit from unrestricted gun show sales.  
    Lots of city kids have met their deaths from guns sold at shows to anyone who wanted one.

    If the NRA were to take into account urban needs, that would be great.  They won't do that. For this lack of perspective and proportion, they lose many supporters.  

    That said, Obama hasn't taken away anyone's guns.

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

    by SottoVoce on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:12:54 PM PDT

  •  It's the NRA who won't call the truce. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sancerre2001, lams712

    What a dumb diary.

    The last time we broke a president, we ended up with Reagan.

    by Bush Bites on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:13:35 PM PDT

  •  This makes no sense (7+ / 0-)

    Democrats have barely even touched the gun issue since 1994.

  •  Dems gave up gun control years ago (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Iberian, lockewasright

    "I drank what?!" -Socrates

    by bagman on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:18:47 PM PDT

  •  Compromise yes, but total capitulation no (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sancerre2001, lakehillsliberal

    There is current Democratic interest in further controlling firearms.  If there are people out there who won't budge in their reflexive Republicanism unless the Democrats claim to embrace unrestricted gun ownership and carrying, they're just going to have to stick with Republicans.  And let's face it--even if the Democrats capitulated on guns tomorrow, the NRA would say they're being insincere and would redouble its efforts on behalf of Republicans.  The NRA is a Republican advocacy group that strategically endorses a handful of Democrats in races where the outcome is in little or no doubt, solely in order to preserve their nominally non-partisan status.  

    The most impressive thing about man [...] is the fact that he has invented the concept of that which does not exist--Glenn Gould

    by Rich in PA on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:18:53 PM PDT

  •  doesn't matter (5+ / 0-)

    almost every Dem candidate has "championed guns" for years in these parts and it doesn't make a difference.  The NRA still attacks them.

  •  Reminder: Obama Is Not Confiscating Libs' Guns (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, jaywillie, tobendaro

    Just so we're clear on that important point.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:23:21 PM PDT

  •  Unimformed Bull Shit (3+ / 0-)

    The Democratic party has been a pro gun party for the last decade. Obama has done more for gun rights than many Republicna presidents. There is hardly an anti- gun democrat running out of a handful in big urban areas, point one please.

    The NRA is a Republican tool they support around 50 democrats and over 200 republicans federal candidates. In local races is even worse

    I call this diary supreme BS a fake victimism

  •  the 2nd amendment is in no danger (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yet another liberal, tobendaro

    from Democrats.
    The gun dealers and the NRA have brainwashed gun owners into thinking that responsible gun ownership is a threat to gun rights.
    We have laws regarding driving and the safety of cars.
    We have laws requiring insurance.
    It's an exactly analogous situation.
    Gun owners should be required to demonstrate their competence in handling a gun.
    They should be required to carry insurance to pay for all the accidents that occur every year, (every day), and all the crimes that occur with stolen handguns.

    Gun dealers should be responsible for knowing whom they're selling to. One store in the east has been implicated in 2500 crimes that involved guns it sold.

    This is just common sense, adult responsibility.
    I don't have any problem with hunting, gun ownership, collecting, etc.
    However, maybe we can start having an adult debate about the issue.
    The NRA should be making an effort to increase responsible gun ownership. It's lobbying efforts have the opposite effect.
    Gun worshippers are infantile. I'm not going into the psychological specifics of their pathology, because it's obvious to everyone.

    •  Some states require concealed carry (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buddabelly, erush1345

      applicants to take classes that teach firearm safety along with legal do's and don'ts.

      Very sensible in my view.

      Now as for your Insurance idea.....I'm going to humbly propose that this would be wildly unpopular. I mean, you're talking about a Federal mandate to purchase insurance, and we don't want that, do we? :)

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:56:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  obviously the rules are inadequate. (0+ / 0-)

        Eventually, the lawsuits will make insurance a necessity.
        There's  a big difference between health insurance mandates and auto insurance mandates. Guns are more like cars.
        My point is that we can't even get to a debate on the issue of treating guns like every other factor in our lives because of the fetishism.

  •  We don't take positions to win elections. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, n8rboy

    At least not on such major topics.  We choose carefully based on what's right, what's logical, and what's practical - and sometimes that's a greater level of gun control than "enthusiasts" may prefer.

    Liberty, Equality, Opportunity.

    by Troubadour on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 05:46:45 PM PDT

    •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Troubadour

      Using the diarist's theory, we could also get a lot of voters if the party decided to come out against a woman's right to choose.  But that's not who we are.

      "in a pleasant spring morning all men's sins are forgiven" - Thoreau

      by n8rboy on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:19:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama endorsed the 2nd amendment (0+ / 0-)

    he clearly stated that he agrees that the 2nd amendment give private citizens the right to keep arms.

    People like you just ignore all the ass kissing democrats do to the NRA and continue with the bullshit no matter the facts.

  •  And the fact remains (0+ / 0-)

    That some of us liberals still support gun control... and where possible, choose our candidates accordingly.

    The idea that becoming "the party of guns" is going to help democrats is absurd.

  •  Repeat after me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buddabelly

    "I believe that adequate federal law already exists to regulate firearms and I oppose any further federal laws in this regard. Gun issues are best left to states and localities who better understand their individual circumstances than the federal government."

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:32:01 PM PDT

    •  as long as they don't violate the 2nd. a (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345

      fundamental right to keep and bear, an individual one that is now explicit since McDonald.........

      "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

      by buddabelly on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:42:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mike Malloy: (0+ / 0-)

    "Buy a gun, no matter how liberal you are."

    "I just hope some teabag rat bastard tries to home-invade me."

    (the last is paraphrased)

    Dear God, Please O Lord let it be Sarah Palin/Glen Beck in 2012? Amen, and thanks for all the fish

    by Pale Jenova on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:34:12 PM PDT

  •  This is a great point, consistent w/ Gov Dean (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buddabelly

    who basically said the same thing.  Making the distinction between life styles and cultural issues, gun control is a huge issue in cities, but perhaps less of an issue in northern california.  Why not just acknowledge that?

    Dirigiste vs Free Mkt -6.25/ Libertarian vs Authoritarian -4.72

    by bob in ny on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:51:09 PM PDT

  •  You need better arguments against gun control (0+ / 0-)

    pbyer, you need better arguments against gun control.  You should say that we all need guns to protect ourselves from the Teabaggers and the anti-evolution kooks who WANT the end times to arrive.

    Of course, one could ask homophobes if homosexuals should be entitled to the same gun rights that heterosexuals have.  One could ask racist people if members of minority groups should be entitled to the same gun rights as Caucasians.  One could ask Islamophobes if Muslims should be entitled to the same gun rights as Christians.

    You might be a Rethug if you join forces with the tobacco lobbyists but condemn abortion, birth control, and gay marriage as crimes against humanity.

    by jhsu on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 06:53:15 PM PDT

  •  I am a gun-owner and have... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    navajo

    ...been since I was 6. I own more than one gun, including handguns. I have hunted, and eaten what I killed, although it has been many years since the last time. So, I obviously believe that citizens should continue to have the right to own guns, the right to hunt, with restrictions.

    But your idea of opening the door to the NRA is not something I can support. The organization no doubt contains many people who ought to be Democrats but aren't. But its leadership is despicable and has been for more than two decades.

    Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Sun Oct 31, 2010 at 07:44:13 PM PDT

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