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Nothing surprises me anymore, but this huge 'bombshell' that has been announced on very few news sites, (right before a major election day), takes the cake, it really does.

This is Déjà vu, and immediately reminded me of how Timothy Geithner made the Christmas Eve announcement that he was essentially giving Freddie and Fannie Mac a blank check, directly into the veins of the American taxpayers...anyone remember that?  I sure as hell do

Strange how these major announcements come at such opportune time, in hopes that no one notices, isn't it?

Federal Government Asks for Closed Courtroom to Protect Goldman Sachs Secrets

The U.S. Department of Justice has requested that a federal judge seal the courtroom of a trial involving computer code theft in order to protect trade secrets of Goldman Sachs. Sergey Aleynikov was arrested by the FBI on charges of stealing computer code that supports Goldman’s high frequency trading system, which allows the bank to buy and sell stocks in a fraction of a second.

Goldman Sachs and others use "flash trading" to send out automated sell offers at higher and higher prices until one comes back with no buyer. The program then drops back to the highest acceptable price and sells at what the buyer set as his maximum limit. This allows Goldman to always obtain the best possible selling price, while the buyer loses the normal give and take of bargaining. In the case of large orders, such as those from pension funds or mutual funds, this can cost the buyers a small fortune.

Federal prosecutors have argued that the general public should not be allowed to observe the trial when details of Goldman’s trade secrets are discussed. They also asked that any documents related to Goldman’s trading strategies be sealed.  While it is common to protect proprietary corporate information during trials,
-Noel Brinkerhoff, David Wallechinsky

http://www.allgov.com/...

Why does this remind me of how for the first time in our nation's history the records pertaining to AIG, what really occurred and who the hell got paid off and why, were sealed by the SEC?

Why does this remind me of how for the first time in our nation's history the Federal Reserve is using the FOIA, in the case that Bloomberg has brought against them, which is on its way to the Supreme Court?

Transparency, my ass.

The House of Cards, is crumbling before our eyes, and the FRAUD TO COVER UP FRAUD, is unraveling, despite, this latest move by Attorney General Eric Holder (aka Wall St/Banking Lapdog) to keep the public out of a public courtroom, to protect Goldman Sachs, aka, the great Vampire Squid from revealing what most Americans already know, that they have been illegally front running (as sanctioned by the SEC, NYSE and our own complicit government in both parties.)

As I read recently, this makes a great deal of common sense:

Remember my first comment, "Everybody, and I mean Everybody now knows that the entire American subprime mortgage market is a scheme to rob the American people?" Well, in recent testimony before a Congressional panel, the details of the most current aspects of the criminal enterprise are revealed with staggering details:  The federal government is pumping billions of dollars into the criminal servicers who are simply pocketing the money, in many cases improperly, with no accountability to the American people.

Read the full report here

I’m just a simple, small town lawyer but what I see on the ground level is exactly what is admitted among and between all the big shots, elected leaders and Wall Street Fat Cats.  The Assignments, Affidavits, Endorsements and claims of ownership are lies, fabrications and at best guesses and estimates. (We don’t know who really owns your mortgage, but we’re going to take it anyway.)  Our local judges should care about details like real claims to ownership and preventing widespread, systemic fraud and abuses and mega corporations receiving billions of dollars they are not entitled to.  Our judges should be looking at the bigger pictures and reading exchanges like the following and understanding that they not only have the power to right the wrongs that are happening to their neighbors and the Amercian people as a whole, but that they have a sacred Constitutional obligation to stop these abuses.  Our judges are on the front lines and they hear the stories from struggling consumers who are lied to and abused by servicers.  Our judges hear the stories everyday of homeowners who have filled out the endless and conflicting forms only to be shot down, shut out and kicked aside.  Our judges, more than anyone else through their interactions with the victims of the servicers have the unique ability to put these statements into their sickening context:  

"How do we know that people who don’t have good liens aren’t getting public money essentially under the false pretense that they have a good lien?" Silvers asked Caldwell.

"Again, we don’t," was her reply. "Our focus at this point has been on..."

Silvers quickly stopped her. "Hold it," he said. "That’s the issue." He added that he hoped Treasury "would be diligent" in trying to answer "what’s potentially at play — are servicers and banks getting public money under false pretenses? We ought to try to figure out whether that’s true or not,"

http://mattweidnerlaw.com/...

Here's a reminder to you Attorney General Eric Holder, and what you swore to uphold:

The Department of Justice (DOJ) is a cabinet-level agency responsible for enforcing the laws of the United States federal government. DOJ ensures public safety against foreign and domestic threats, including terrorism, and preventing crime.

What it Does  

The Department of Justice (DOJ) enforces federal laws, prevents crime, protects the public’s safety from all threats, including terrorism, and operates the federal prison system. Key figures and agencies that perform these duties include the FBI, DEA, US Marshals, US Attorneys and the Attorney General of the United States. DOJ employs more than 100,000 attorneys, special agents, other law enforcement personnel and various staff.

So here's a clue AG Eric Holder, your job is not to ask a Federal Judge to close an otherwise open courtroom to the public and the media, to protect Goldman Sachs. You job Holder, is to protect the American public from those that have gamed the system, and have illegally made billions that have literally brought this nation to ruination.

Today we have yet another 'fake news story' on how the SEC is supposedly going after JP Morgan:

SEC Investigating Magnetar, JP Morgan Dealings on Subprime CDO

ProPublica reports that the SEC has taken interest in Magnetar’s role in a JP Morgan underwritten CDO.

We discussed Magntar at length in our book ECONNED, which broke that story six weeks before ProPublica launched its report, and remains the definitive account of how those transactions were structured. (Our continuing beef with the ProPublica account is that it missed what we discussed at length in ECONNED: the systemic impact of the Magnetar trade. It isn’t simply that Magnetar was a bad actor; its Constellation CDO program played a direct and substantial role in increasing the severity and damage of the toxic phase of the subprime bubble).

Per ProPublica’s update:

   The Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating whether JPMorgan Chase allowed a hedge fund to improperly select assets for a $1.1 billion deal backed by subprime mortgages, according to people familiar with the probe. Called "Squared" and completed in May 2007, the deal was a collateralized debt obligation, or CDO, made up of pieces of other CDOs. The hedge fund, Magnetar Capital, based in Evanston, Ill., purchased the riskiest slice of Squared as part of a strategy to bet against the mortgage market.

The issue is similar to the one that came up in the SEC suit against Goldman in April over a 2007 Abacus trade (this was one deal in a much larger Goldman program called Abacus): did subprime short John Paulson, who did take a short position in that trade, act as a Trojan horse long for a small percentage of the deal (the equity tranche) so as to gain influence over what bonds went into the deal? With the Paulson involvement, it was harder to argue impropriety, since he had made the fact that he was shorting subprime public, and the CDO manager, ACA, (who was nominally responsible for picking the exposures and clearly was negotiating with Paulson what was in and out of the deal) was part of one of the major investors in the long side of the deal (in other words, if one hand didn’t know what the other at ACA was doing, you could hardly blame the failure to communicate on Paulson and Goldman).

ttp://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/11/sec-investigating-magnetar-jp-morgan-dealings-on-subprime-cdo. html

Again the same two parties, again and again and again:

Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan...(the few left standing after the great Heist of 2008, which essentially happened to make certain all of their so called 'competition was eliminated.'

And what difference do these stories make, if all the SEC does is to put a insulting fine on them, for what they've taken from us as a nation, or if AG Eric Holder, is now asking a fucking Federal Judge to close to the public what should be open to all Americans.

Who in the hell is Attorney General Eric Holder working for, and jeesshe, don't you wonder if Holder discussed closing down this case to the public with our beloved leader, President Obama?  I do.

It doesn't matter, it's all imploding anyway, and that is exactly what is going to continue to happen, as these worthless Wall Street Bankers throw the women and children overboard as they try, in their last ditch efforts to get their places on the 'life boats' of the Titanic.

The Inevitable Has Come To Pass and Those That Insured Guaranteed Blowups Are Being Blown Up - Finally!

Submitted by Reggie Middleton on 11/01/2010 08:47 -0500

Zerohedge had posted an article this morning that brought back memories of how lonely it can be to have a contrarian, dissenting opinion – Ambac Does Not Make November 1 Coupon Payment, To File Bankruptcy Within A Month If Unable To Raise Additional Capital . You see, I have alleged Ambac to be insolvent for 3 years now – seriously, Ambac is Effectively Insolvent & Will See More than $8 Billion of Losses with Just a $2.26 Billionn in Equity! This post was written in November of 2007. On November 1st, 2010 the chickens are now coming home to roost (again). Of course, the sell side never really agreed with me. After all, there are two sides to every trade (excerpted from the afore-linked article)...

Six Degrees of Separation: Guess who Ambac insures!

Bank of America issued a report on the monoline insurers on July 30th, 2007 that states that ABK’s RMBS exposure to troubled companies is limited to only 4 cos. with vintages primarily in the early years excluding two relatively well performing underwritings. Despite this, they failed to include in this caveat the consumer finance insureds:

   
         o Countrywide, which probably has one of the worst performing portfolios in the industry;
         o GMAC, who has also suffered significant losses that GM has been forced to cover, hence hampering a clean sale of the company;
         o Indymac, another company that is saddled with mortgage related losses that is on the insured’s list (Indymac and Countrywide have had their shares more than halved in the last few months. I was short these companies. CFC may go bankrupt);
         o Lehman brothers has some losses to contend with as well, but I don’t know to what extent since I don’t follow it – I do know that they are the 2nd largest MBS house on the street, next to Bear Stearns;
         o Greenpoint Mortgage Funding is defunct, wound down due to losses;
         o Then we also have Citimortgage (SIV king whose own mortgage portfolio is a mess);
         o Accredited Mortgage Loan (bankrupt or close to it);
         o Wachovia (just reported a billion plus writedown on mortgage assets);
         o Countrywide Revolving Equity Trust/Alt-A trust (need I say more about undocumented 2nd lien loans from this lender);
         o Option One Mortgage Trust (nearly defunct due to mortgage losse);
         o BofA, mulit-billion dollar mortgage asset writedown;
         o and Newcastle – who I believe is either out of business or close to it. I stopped following it some time ago.

These are the companies and exposure that I am familiar with, at first glance in the consumer finance portion of Ambac’s portfolio, without any research. Just imagine if I took a real hard look at the insureds.

http://www.zerohedge.com/...

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

George Santayana

This reminds me of President's Obama blind repetition, that we must look forward and not backward.  

Of course, we must always look forward, that is what this nation has always been about, but we can never and must never give a blind eye to corruption, and the rule of law in our nation, that we fought so dearly for in the past.  

So unfortunately, we are now in a state of doing exactly what George Santayana has quoted: repeating the same mistakes over and over and over again.

This is exactly why we are now facing such huge losses in our own party, because when President Obama refused to step up to the plate to stop the corruption and madness, and the absolute fury, that most Americans are feeling, because of what the Bankers and Wall Street, have gotten away with and are still getting away with, then guess what?

It opened the doors, to the absolute worst reactionary politics in the history of our nation.  

Oh, you thought Rove was bad?  Get a clue.  Now we've got the Zombie On Ward Christian Soldiers Hating Muslims, Birthers, Racists, Over-turn Women's Rights to their bodies, end Social Security and Medicare, Education Crowd, that are being swept into office...

And you know why?  Wall St.  The Bankers...............that's why.

Fuck you AG Eric Holder.  Trying to get a Federal Judge to stop the public from seeing how Goldman Sachs has been front running for years, just as has JP Morgan, who has been proven to the same thing, and manipulating the silver markets.....

What, they think we don't know what's going on?  Well here's a song for you Bankers and Wall Street vipers, as you push the women and children away from the life boats off the Titanic:

Thanks as always, wish it were not so, but it is.

I voted the straight Democratic ticket last week, but my voting hand is getting mighty tired at this point.

Ms. B.

Originally posted to Badabing on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:35 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (139+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    Tookish, Alumbrados, cdreid, DeminNewJ, MediaFreeze, MadRuth, roonie, mattman, emal, cotterperson, Mnemosyne, Gustogirl, opinionated, TheMomCat, nyceve, DaleA, wanderindiana, slatsg, dqueue, semiot, antirove, Dallasdoc, jlynne, pat bunny, Bailey Savings and Loan, penguins4peace, riverlover, alizard, dkmich, Deward Hastings, realtime, BDA in VA, soros, 3goldens, ManOnTheBench, disrael, corvo, frandor55, Simplify, Heartcutter, lotlizard, coolbreeze, Lisa Lockwood, Shaking the Tree, deepsouthdoug, Pluto, Cory Bantic, Crazy like a fox, Kingsmeg, vigilant meerkat, sherlyle, seefleur, blueoasis, NBBooks, triv33, bubbanomics, gooderservice, Persiflage, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, kurt, crystal eyes, kurious, Picot verde, Johnathan Ivan, The House, Nulwee, NonnyO, ladypockt, seabos84, bigchin, One Pissed Off Liberal, bluicebank, dotsright, khereva, desertguy, DocbytheBay, daveygodigaditch, LamontCranston, joyful, aliasalias, jayden, Uberbah, millwood, uciguy30, i like bbq, eyesoars, Terra Mystica, MikePhoenix, dadadata, jakebob, monkeybrainpolitics, geomoo, pickandshovel, bluesheep, codairem, squarewheel, ZhenRen, mos1133, Florene, nippersdad, BigAlinWashSt, JG in MD, Nailbanger, Daily Activist, Losty, prndl, ohmyheck, ratmach, commonmass, angry liberaltarian, NY brit expat, Kristina40, Betty Pinson, apimomfan2, Colorado is the Shiznit, ladywithafan, owilde69, ozsea1, Oldowan, Jazzenterprises, Situational Lefty, Wolf10, RadicalRoadRat, Vtdblue, whoknu, Crider, Hayate Yagami, daveusf, Lucy2009, No one gets out alive, buzzybodhi, damfino, dance you monster, just want to comment, Joieau, teabaggerssuckbalz, LaneJ, radical simplicity, MartyM
    Hidden by:
    taylormattd, LarsThorwald
    •  I literally cannot believe this diary is recc'd (38+ / 0-)

      This is, without question, the absolute most factually wrong diary I have ever seen on this site.  It is disgusting.  It disgusts me that this diary could be recc'd, and it is disappointing to think that people are so ideologically driven that they will totally and completely ignore the facts.  

      To make sure it is glass clear:  When there is a proceeding, criminal or otherwise, and trade secrets are involved and may be disclosed through the presentation of evidence, the parties have an obligation to make sure that those trade secrets are not disclosed and are subject to an appropriate protective order.  This is true in cases of intellectual property infringement between private parties, and it is true in criminal cases, and everywhere in between.

      The prosecutor should be applauded for doing that which is not only ethical and required by the rules of professional responsibility, but which upholds the rule of law.  And instead, he is denegrated and torn down (as is his ultimate boss) for doing the right thing.

      This diary and everyone who recommended it without thinking or caring represents exactly what is wrong with this country.  We eschew facts in favor of pitchforks, and we want blood and retribution without a second glance at what the law requires.

      That's what the other guys do.

      So I apologize for going absolutely apeshit below, but this is the kind of thing that drives me absolutely apeshit.  

      This diary is filled with seriously, seriously mischaracterized facts and conclusions, carelessly printed without regard for their truth and for the purpose of grinding a political axe.  

      And in my book -- in my profession -- that makes it no better than a diary filled with fucking lies.

      This diary shouldn't be on the rec list.

      It should be deleted.  

      Fucking unbelieveable.  

      "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

      by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:13:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The source of the confusion probably has to do (5+ / 0-)

        with how deeply and savagely the financial giants performed intercourse with the public in the last few years and decades. The whole of civilization has been defined by the relationship between the powerful and the masses. When the swings go beyond points where balance can be maintained, things tend to get ugly. We live in an almost indescribably different world from that we knew as recently as fifty years ago. The nature of modern financial trading is surely among the most challenged aspects of the modern technologies in terms of any ability to regulate it - numbers are inflated so fast and frequently that there is rarely time to catch up with it, even once corruption is known to be happening. The combination of these things make It makes the system look full of fraud, and indeed, case after case of fraud sure seems to confirm it. It is hard for the Law to appear fair and just when the Law is so corrupt in itself. And when the defendants have stolen the futures of hundreds of millions, it seems natural for some to want their blood... the Law be damned.

        "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no living man with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams

        by The House on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:40:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That way lies madness. Pure madness. (14+ / 0-)

          Anger shouldn't inform anyone's reading of the law.  Not a judge, not a lawyer, and not a journalist.  

          There is no justification for a diarist at a website to not take the time to educate herself on what it is she writes.  

          "Fuck you AG Holder"?  Really?

          Fuck idiocy I say.  No matter whose ideological axe it grinds.

          This diary is shameful.  

          "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

          by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:44:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You know, people get angry. No one was hurt, I'm (7+ / 0-)

            pretty sure that Mr. Holder was not. The point is that when people have reasons to be angry, especially when the Law has become so flawed as to be worthy of contempt, then you could expect to see folks lash out. This blog is no hallowed office, and it is not a courtroom. And if angry people feel that bureaucrats are in cahoots with the greatest thieves of all time, and you can help to show them they are wrong, it seems to me like this is exactly the place for it.

            "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no living man with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams

            by The House on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:50:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That does not excuse either (7+ / 0-)

              being wrong on the facts and accusing others of corruption for it, or diarying about that which you do not understand.  

              "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

              by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:53:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Personall I tihnk that diarying about what you (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Badabing, nippersdad

                don't understand is just fine. We, a lot of us I surmise, are here to learn. Some of us may feel we are here to lecture.

                "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no living man with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams

                by The House on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:54:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nice typing! (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Badabing, geomoo, Karl Rover

                  "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no living man with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams

                  by The House on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:55:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  So the poster below who writes "This is the last (7+ / 0-)

                  straw," that's okay, because he or she is basing that statement on the contents of this diary, but tghe diary doesn't need to be factually correct?  

                  Yes, you can diary about what you don't understand.  But this is a diary that purports to sday: here are the facts, and the facts show X.  And when those facts are wrong, we should call them out as wrong.  

                  "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

                  by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:57:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, that seems right. And I would rather all see (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Badabing

                    the process than to have the diary deleted, for obvious reasons I hope.

                    "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no living man with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams

                    by The House on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:01:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  The last straw was the original reporting (3+ / 0-)

                    which described a system of frontrunning the market.
                    No one is disagreeing with you on the technicalities of protecting witnesses and rule of law except.....
                    This is the only prosecution out of Goldman Sachs.  Let that sink in for a moment. Out of all the fraud associated with gaming markets, the ratings agency frauds, the defrauding of AIG, the shorting of products that they sold themselves, and this frontrunning,etc, etc, etc, this is the one the DOJ has been working so hard on.

                    Where is the due process for all those that were harmed by this software?  Where is the due process for the entire economy that was harmed by GS et al?  If the frontrunning is illegal as many believe, what is the the purpose of hiding it?  If this was a criminal enterprise, there is no responsibility to protect the trade secret.

                    If we truly are in a nation of laws, they need to be upheld for the poor as well as the rich, the weak as much as the powerful.

                    Taken in isolation, you are entirely correct, but as a whole this whole thing stinks bad.

              •  And please don't get me wrong... I think that (6+ / 0-)

                your point about the technical legal issue is probably correct in that there is an argument in favor of protecting trade secrets. But the thrust of the piece, I think, as well as the reality in this case, I think, is that everything about what the big financial firms did, along with the ways Bush and Obama seemed not just unwilling to see to some sort of Justice, instead they appear to have acted in furtherance of the original theft on behalf of the defendants. Pretty serious stuff, regardless of the legal technicalities.

                "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no living man with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams

                by The House on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:00:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Darned DKos system... it amended this comment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Badabing, BigAlinWashSt

          and then the thing posted the unamended version. THe edit is:

          The combination of these things make the system look full of fraud, and indeed, case after case of fraud sure seems to confirm it. It is hard for the Law to appear fair and just when the Law is so corrupt in itself. And when the defendants have stolen the futures of hundreds of millions, it seems natural for some to want their blood... the Law (and Eric Holder) be damned.

          Thanks.

          "The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no living man with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams

          by The House on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:46:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, I'm sure you've seen more factually wrong (14+ / 0-)

        diaries, just (maybe) not on the rec list.  But you're right that it highlights a problem with how we, as a community, respond to information, especially when it involves legal procedures that we don't all understand, preconceived notions about the various players, touchy politics and long-running axes for grinding, etc.  As Pluto said downthread in a different context, some of us are always learning.

        I'm not annoyed with the diarist for (apparently) getting it wrong.  I'm considerably more annoyed with the diarist for not processing the (measured) criticisms downthread - that is, reacting rather than processing.  There hasn't been a compelling counterpoint to any of the criticism that you, Seneca Doane, gchaucer, etc. have offered here.  And that's a problem.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:42:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  She gets a lot of shit wrong, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TFinSF, science nerd

          always making the administaration look worse than it is, and rarely corrects it. Even when she does she does it 12-14 hours later and then makes snide coimments about the people who show her she is wrong.

          But she has a lot of fans because she attacks the admin so much/.

          I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

          by Mike S on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 10:49:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well you know what I say, Lars . . . (23+ / 0-)

        I say thank God for great patriots like Badabing for taking the time to educate us.

        If I hadn't seen this on Daily Kos, I might not have known this was happening. We can all sort out we believe is factually accurate or not.

        For me, I am deeply indebted to Badabing.

        And yeah, I'm with you Badabing, I'm also voting straight Dem first thing in the morning.

        God bless the Democratic party, starting Wednesday we need to go about the business of replenishing our ranks with good Democrats.

      •  I'm just glad we didn't (11+ / 0-)

        let election night eve pass us by without a fact-twisting, context-free anti-Obama administration diary rippin up the wreck list.

        My only quibble with your comment Lars is this bit:

        Fucking unbelievable

        No, it is, sadly, all too fucking believable my friend.

      •  Yes, it is unfuckingbelieveable! (1+ / 2-)
        Recommended by:
        Jonathan
        Hidden by:
        Wolf10, Celtic Pugilist

        Look closely to the folks that are rec'ing this diary. The same purist who have been shouting hard to caricature anything this administration has done are jumping giving themselves high fives. Fucking assholish character as usual. This place fucking stinks!

        ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

        by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:47:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, it doesn't (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, Badabing

          These people are loud and they are a minority.  And backing something that is fundamentally inaccurate, evidently because it says what they want to hear, speaks volumes about their integrity.

          •  My previous statement is perhaps too harsh (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cedwyn, Lawrence, Seneca Doane, Badabing

            I do get how someone can get to the point where truth seems inconvenient to making one's point, especially when one sees (or thinks he or she sees) deep injustice.

            But we cannot abandon truth.  The moment you do that, you risk everything.  When you start treating the truth as an impediment, you are one step away from acting on a lie, and abandoning the principles you think you are upholding.

            •  Ulterior motives abound. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              The House, Badabing, PhilJD

              Is the point to have a fact-based community, or is it to take every occasion of inaccuracy to smear an entire group, guilt by association and all?  Unfortunately, it is not so far-fetched to believe Holder's DOJ sided with corporations against the people.  If you want to get into it, I can give you terrific, factual example of this DOJ protecting torturers and murderers.

              The diarist may be wrong here--so far I'm convinced by Lars argument.  But I have as little reason to "trust" Lars as I do to trust Badabing, perhaps less so given my interpretation of the last four years.  But one mistake by one diarist, one you identify is part of some ill-defined group of people, does not prove that everything that entire group of people has said is wrong.

              You think I couldn't point you to a factual error made by an Obama apologist (for the tenth time, the word is not an insult)?  I remember BWD being raked over the coals for a similar ill-supported claim with respect to unemployment.  I didn't take that mistake to mean that everyone who has ever defended Obama is factually challenged and of flawed character.

              In short, please try to tone down the generalities.

              These are the kinds of cranks, menaces, mercenaries, and authoritarians you will turn this country over to? - KO

              by geomoo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:42:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I thought I was (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sparhawk, Cedwyn

                Frankly, truth is a generality I'm not going to abandon.  And I didn't say errors don't abound.

                What concerns me is not errors.  It's the attitude that errors don't matter.  The truth does matter, and we don't get to say "oh, well, the point still stands" when the evidence for it is debunked.  Points need to be made on evidence.

                As for this:

                Obama apologist

                ...I must disagree with you.  Just as calling someone an "Obama hater" is an insult, so is calling them an apologist -- because it implies the target's point can be dismissed due to motive.

                What's more, it is the very definition of an ad hominem circumstantial fallacy (appeal to motive).

                •  Factually speaking, you are wrong about apologist (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Badabing, PhilJD

                  An apologist, by definition, is someone who defends something.  If someone is an apologist for slavery, it's not the apologist part that makes them wrong--it's what they are apologizing for.  There is nothing inherently wrong with defending Obama.  If you believe he deserves defending and do so, then you are an apologist.  This is accepted usage.  If you can suggest a handier value-free word for identifying people who defend Obama, then I would be happy to use that one instead.  As a matter of language, the most accurate neutral word is "apologist."  "Hating," otoh is very different than "apologizing".  The accurate alternative would be "criticizing."

                  I would make common cause with you in convincing anyone who claims the truth doesn't matter.  But I don't see much need of that.  What I see is people with different versions of the truth, and all too much of each side accusing the other of acting in bad faith, iow, of not caring about the truth.  Honestly, I don't see much not caring about the truth here on dkos. That would seem to be the least of our worries.  Accepting that people with a different version of the truth can still be of good character and acting in good faith seems to be more of a problem.  The result is blame and accusation instead of debate.

                  These are the kinds of cranks, menaces, mercenaries, and authoritarians you will turn this country over to? - KO

                  by geomoo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:16:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think we're getting lost in pedantics, here (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm aware of the meaning.  It's the usage that is the problem:  when one responds to defense of the administration on a given issue with the generalization that the defender is an "Obama apologist", one is generalizing that the target is motivated by defending the administration, rather than honest disagreement on an issue.

                    Ironically, you were decrying generalizations not two posts before -- and it's generalization, in part, that is the origin of the ad hominem nature of the epithet.

                    If you can suggest a handier value-free word for identifying people who defend Obama, then I would be happy to use that one instead.

                    How about sticking to the discussion and the argument at hand on a given topic, rather than resorting to attacking motives?  One may honestly disagree on a given issue.  It's not necessary to be motivated by defense of Obama in general to disagree with someone who attacks administration actions or policy on a given issue.

                    •  And for the record... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Badabing

                      ...there are issues (primarily, economic and on torture) where I disagree with the administration's actions strongly.

                      It would thus be rather inaccurate to refer to me as an "Obama apologist" because I agree with the administration on a different topic, don't you think?  Or do you honestly think that designation doesn't carry implications that attack motive, even if you're simply trying to identify sides on a single issue?

                      •  That's not how I use the word. (0+ / 0-)

                        That's all I can say.  I'm looking for a shorthand way to say it.  I don't use, and I don't approve of, insults.  I chide people I agree with for using them.  This is my goal and this is my attitude.  I made no assumptions about how much and to what extent you are an apologist for Obama.  My request for a better word was an honest one.  I don't know what else to say.

                        Otoh, in the interest of reality, there are people who aggressively apologize for any and everything Obama does.  Let's not pretend that is not so.  Still, they don't deserve to be called names.

                        You make a lot of assumptions about me, my attitude, and my meanings in your response.  May I gently suggest that you read my comment again and hear a different voice in your head.  Perhaps you can see that my comment can be read in a significantly different way.

                        These are the kinds of cranks, menaces, mercenaries, and authoritarians you will turn this country over to? - KO

                        by geomoo on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 12:24:01 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Furthermore, it's typically ironic (0+ / 0-)

                        that you imagine my particular responses to you as being a general attack, while this comment section is an extended example of sharks attacking blood in the water, with various and sundry usual suspects denouncing every criticism ever made of Holder because one person was wrong in this case.  Every comment I have made in this diary has been an argument against such over-generalization.

                        These are the kinds of cranks, menaces, mercenaries, and authoritarians you will turn this country over to? - KO

                        by geomoo on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 12:36:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  The first definition for "apologist" I found: (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  musing85, Badabing

                  A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution

                  Nor am I cherry-picking; there are any number of similar definitions available. The word contains no judgment of those whom it describes.

                  I've seen similar, and equally bogus, complaints made against use of "ilk." This is all just bullshit; it's no crime not to understand a word, but folks who misuse or misunderstand something really shouldn't expect to dictate usage for the entire site.

                  When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                  by PhilJD on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:33:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Judgment (0+ / 0-)

                    Nor am I cherry-picking; there are any number of similar definitions available. The word contains no judgment of those whom it describes.

                    I believe the designation goes to motive in an argument.  To me, that's an attack on integrity, which is an insult.

                    •  Words mean what they mean... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      musing85

                      not what you believe they mean. "Apologist," used properly, is another way of saying "defender" or "supporter."

                      When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                      by PhilJD on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 09:10:53 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

                        I wasn't aware that words had any meaning aside from what we ascribe to them.

                        At any rate, to reiterate, "apologist" doesn't have to be an insult for the epithet "Obama apologist", used in an argument, to be an insult.

                        As I said, it's an attack on motive.  You are literally saying the target defends Obama--not necessarily in a given instance, but in general.  Why is it necessary to label someone in this way?  Can't we deal with the topic and the arguments at hand, without attacking each other's integrity?  I honestly don't understand it--unless one is out of arguments, of course.

                        •  There are folks here who do this: (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          musing85

                          the target defends Obama--not necessarily in a given instance, but in general.

                          That's simply a fact. If you don't see it, you aren't paying attention. "Apologist" is a concise and direct way to describe them. I had voluntarily stopped using it, in deference to others' feelings, but I'm reconsidering that. Constantly having to resort to circumlocutions to convey what apologist says clearly is tedious.

                          When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                          by PhilJD on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 05:29:40 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  Well how about this Lars? How about the milllions (7+ / 3-)

        of people that were put out their jobs and homes?
        Do you have a 'legal answer for that'

        I am so fucking sick of you and your kind I can not even get over all this shit..

        You come on here and describe the 'laws of the land' that were voted in by our own party, and still, you have the fucking absolute temerity, to call me an idiot...

        You know what I care about Lars?  I care about those that have been thrown out of their jobs and homes..

        Do you?

        You can go ahead with the rest of you Dallas Cowboy Wall Street Cheer Leader Lawyers..and you can go ahead, and tell me how most of the people that voted for Obama, did not get the shank in their lives..

        but you know what I say to you and all of your kind is this:

        Fuck you and fuck your 'lawyers creed' and fuck all of that, because in the end all that matters, is who is now living in the streets of this nation...

        because you and others are acting as protecting the laws instead of the citizens....

        I am very, very tired of hearing about the 'laws'..

        most esp.. from my own party, because of this one sane reason...

        A society without carrying for those that are young, those that are indigent, those that are lost, those that our elderly, has not right to call itself, a civilized society at all....

        Unknown Greek Senator..

        I read that quote as I read what RFK said, and so many others, but you cannot..............

        no matter what bullshit you give me is this:

        You cannot and will never separate these qualities in our government:

        Ethics, decency, the law of the land, equality, and the above all, you do not cut off the legs of those people who held our government up and built this nation from the first...

        Good luck with that, and you of your ilk..

        this is the platform of the Democratic Party..

        perhaps you forgot it.

        good luck with that.

        Ms. B.

        •  Some are more concerned that Obama keep (5+ / 0-)

          his current job and residence than all those who have lost both.

          The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

          by Wolf10 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:07:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Your anger does not justify (15+ / 0-)

          a diary filled with patently wrong facts.  Just flat out wrong facts.

          You want to diary a rant about how Wall Street sold every single person who works for a living in this country down the river?  I'll rec it.  you want to diary about how the fucking rich assholes on Wall Street got off not only with less than a wrist slap, but a gold watch to boot?  I'll rec it twice.  You want to go off on a rant about how the diminishing middle class in this country is rapidly joining the ranks of the poor and the helpless in this country because of the bonheaded ways of some of our so-called leaders in this country?  I'll rec it three times and say Hallelujah.

          But your anger doesn't justify misleading people with wrong facts.  Anymore than the anger of a Teabagger justifies the bullshit they spew.  

          This is what separates us from them:  We embrace reality.  For fuck's sake.  

          The only way -- the only fucking way -- we get ourselves out of the ditch is by embracing the facts and the truth, because the truth has a liberal bias.

          This kind of grab-a-pitchfork shit doesn't help, and it definitely doesn't help when it's built on absolute bunk.  

          "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

          by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:07:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You know, even if I agree with everything you've (8+ / 0-)

          written on this site about GS and DoJ's failure (if it turns out that way) to pursue them adequately, it still doesn't make an AG's protecting the privacy of a witness complaining about a crime wrong rather than admirable.  When ultimate justice runs up against due process (or in this case, protection of those who file complaints of crimes), those interests of procedure do and should win.  Otherwise you get vigilantism and legal rules that will eventually be used against the less powerful.

        •  I'm not a lawyer, but... (10+ / 0-)

          I am very, very tired of hearing about the 'laws'

          Yikes! Not every law is a good law, but ... rule by mob, and rule by emotional fiat, is a bad way to go - we have a wealth of human history that shows why.  Sure, our system doesn't always get it right, but we fight for the process because we believe that there is value in that process.  It protects us as much as it protects 'them': do significant damage to 'their' protections, and you lose your own.

          I don't think any of the lawyers here devalue justice, or don't see the human suffering around them (probably more keenly than you realize).  

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:11:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wow...so you think you are creating jobs (6+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          Jonathan, JT88, Brecht, jiffypop, edwardssl, shrike
          Hidden by:
          Wolf10

          to reduce unemployment by writing a factually BS diary. Go figure!

          HR'ed for the "Fuck you".

          ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

          by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:16:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And now I will HR you for your hypocritically (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Badabing, nippersdad

            inconsistent use of same. Have you checked out some of the foul mouthed invective being used by those with whom you agree. I will remove mine when you do the same. Cheers!

            The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

            by Wolf10 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:25:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I HR'ed the commenter for saying F U. Per MB (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JT88, Brecht, jiffypop

              that is HR'able. Nothing I said in my comment is HR'able. I am only responsible for my comment and can't me responsible for others. I have not read a comment that calls someone F U and if I see I would drop my donut on 'em.

              Your HR is bogus and tarnishes the name of a trusted user.

              ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

              by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:37:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Here's one you missed per my comment: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Badabing, nippersdad

                Yes, it is unfuckingbelieveable! (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                   Jonathan

                Look closely to the folks that are rec'ing this diary. The same purist who have been shouting hard to caricature anything this administration has done are jumping giving themselves high fives. Fucking assholish character as usual. This place fucking stinks!

                ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

                by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:47:54 PM PDT

                Oh, wait, it's one of your own! I guess you can't HR yourself. Too bad, you should be afforded such a privilege.

                The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

                by Wolf10 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:45:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't find anything in that comment that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Brecht

                  is personal attack. I definitely attack the gangster character and idiolect but you won't find me saying F U. Again, nothing I said is HR'able. Sometimes, it is quite useful to read closely and slowly to really understand what is HR'able and not.

                  ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

                  by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:17:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm one of the "assholes" against whom you (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Badabing, nippersdad

                    inveigh, so I do take it personally. In my world all such language is generally a prelude to physical violence. Therefore, I rarely use it unless I intend to shoot or otherwise harm someone immediately thereafter. We should all try to do better.

                    The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

                    by Wolf10 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:21:47 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  No. Just No. You cannot rail against hypocritical (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ThisIsMyTime

              inconsistency when you are HRing ThisIsMyTime for a comment which has no personal insults while uprating Badabing for a venom-filled rant with 5 F-bombs.

              If your HR was actually called for, you wouldn't be using it as a mere quid-pro-quo to make ThisIsMyTime rate according to your whims.

              Try applying the rules consistently, and stop accusing others of your own bad habits.

              "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

              by Brecht on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:18:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  You don't think I love my own party? well to (0+ / 0-)

            bad...

            You give me list of this ok?

            New and better Democrats?

            Who in either party had demanded to put a tax on demanding that our jobs are not sold overseas?

            Who in either party has demanded to rebuild our bought off manufacturing base?

            Who in either party has held Wall St/the Bankers who have us in total gridlock in our houses, who are now unwilling to let us go to other states to get jobs, because we cannot sell our homes, to get other jobs?

            Who in either party is not going to continue to not provide a real 'jobs program for Americans' like FDR did, of hold the Banks accountable, and who in the end is paying for that?

            You just tell me that ok?

            The reason we do not have a jobs program is because, Obama, had an the worst choice of all...guess what, I still love him?

            You don't think I do, then I guess you don't just get it......

            The Rules of Engagement have changed in our politics, and the worst of it is this...

            We just did not get the fucking memo..........

            After Reagan, after 30 years of the destruction of the new deal, guess what we got?  

            We had Teddy Kennedy on his death bed, giving his hand to Obama, and the Clintons (who he hated never leaving our party) and still, we are left with the same shit, after all these years....we still don't get it do we?

            No one is creating jobs anymore.

            What part of that don't you get?

            Tell me who is, Ok?

            I'm ready to listen to that.. but guess what. no one will. No one can.

            Do you remember when Candidate Obama talked about re-negotiating NAFTA?

            Give me a fucking break, ok?

            Do you know what the only job in America is now?

            for the Military Industrial Complex....god help us all...at least IKE, warned us all about that...a fucking Republican 5 Star General...but shit..I guess we were too busy to notice that....

            now what is what we have come to denying the lies and all of this:

            What else might affect the economy? The answer is obvious, but its implications are frightening. War and peace influence the economy. Look back at FDR and the Great Depression. What finally resolved that economic crisis? World War II.

            Here is where Obama is likely to prevail. With strong Republican support in Congress for challenging Iran's ambition to become a nuclear power, he can spend much of 2011 and 2012 orchestrating a showdown with the mullahs. This will help him politically because the opposition party will be urging him on. And as tensions rise and we accelerate preparations for war, the economy will improve.

            Wow. Jeezy creezy. Deep breath. Where to begin with this? Here's a fun fact: for much of the economic downturn, we were heavily involved in two wars. I read about this somewhere, I think! As it turns out, they aren't deficit neutral. Whats more, they are tremendously effective resource drainers. And the first resource that's been drained is our military personnel, who have spent the past decade on long, backbreaking deployments. It makes you wonder: who are we going to "accelerate preparations for war" with exactly? It's not like we have an infinite supply of troops upon which to draw.    And I don't know if David Broder is up on current events, many of which have been ably reported on in a newspaper called The Washington Post, but the new and emerging threat that's drawing our attention and resources is coming from Yemen -- a troubled state where the latest, greatest al Qaeda faction is testing its operational abilities and our defenses.

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

            We as a party and a nation just not get it at all, we are all lost, and I'm very worried about this.

            Are you?

            Ms. B.

            •  Every once in a while I am forced (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ThisIsMyTime

              to listen to Laura Ingrahm. You are the flip side of her same coin. Pompous, dishonest but hollier than thou and fucking proud of it.

              At least she's smart enough to make money off of her complete lack of integrity though.

              I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

              by Mike S on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 11:17:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Easy HR (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mike S, arielle, Brecht, shrike

          You get called out for your innacuracy and lack of understanding on the subject of the hyperbolic diary that you chose to hurl at us, and your response is this?:

          "Fuck you and fuck your 'lawyers creed' and fuck all of that..."

          That is not only HR worthy, but demonstrates a severe lack of class.

          And those of you who are committing upratings abuse by reccing this comment should be truly ashamed of yourselves.

          "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

          by Lawrence on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:45:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Perhaps you are being hypocritical or did you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Badabing

            miss this one by someone whose views may I assume you share?

            Yes, it is unfuckingbelieveable! (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
               Jonathan

            Look closely to the folks that are rec'ing this diary. The same purist who have been shouting hard to caricature anything this administration has done are jumping giving themselves high fives. Fucking assholish character as usual. This place fucking stinks!

            ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

            by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:47:54 PM PDT

            The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

            by Wolf10 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:04:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Frontrunning is illegal. (9+ / 0-)

        Presumably the software explicitly created  to perform it should be as well. A product with no legal use should not be covered under the intellectual property proscription. So, why should the Attorney General of the United States involve himself in protecting the secrecy of software used to indulge in illegal activities?

        Seems like sunlight would be the best disinfectant.

        "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." Oscar Wilde

        by nippersdad on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:06:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bingo! (5+ / 0-)

          See This

          The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

          by Bobjack23 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:31:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  See, that is exactly how I read it! (4+ / 0-)

            To read the spluttering outrage of all the usual suspects in response to this diary, one might have thought that they had finally found an acorn.

            My hopes on their behalf have been dashed.

            I hope that Lars and and all of his little friends can better explain their position with regard to your point before I can have the T-Shirts made up. They certainly sound like people who could use some Assholes for Obama T-shirts after having read their commentary. Maybe we should have pit stains printed onto them to match the inevitable crotch stains?

            I think that that may now be the big question of our time.

            "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." Oscar Wilde

            by nippersdad on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:43:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It looks like theft to me........................ (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Badabing, Wolf10

        That's why I didn't think of this as a trade secrets issue.  I'm not excusing my decision to rec the diary.  I'm just trying to explain why I, and possibly many others, rec'ed the diary.

        I don't understand the law or financial systems in detail very well and neither do most people.

        So, if you could help us understand these issues it would help protect us against GOP propaganda.

      •  You don't mean "litereally" literally, do you? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Badabing

        Lars, your comment seems at least as full of lies and hyperbole as the diary.  I am considering it possible that you have a point.  If you had made it straight-forwardly, obviously in good faith, it would have been quite convincing.  It is a little hard to hear you, though, after you tell me that I am what is wrong with this country, or you seem to assume that I recommended this diary "without thinking or caring."  Of course, taken literally you are only speaking to those who recommended in this way, but your implication is that this category encompasses a lot of people.  Perhaps even everyone who is deeply disappointed with Obama's DOJ already for other reasons.

        I stand ready to accept the reason and tone of this diary on the basis of facts which I know to be accurate, much as is so well explained by The House is several comments.  I know that, were I to bring up some of these facts as reasons for disappointment, I could expect to meet with much the sort of hyperbolic, condemning reaction I see from you here.  And I would know in that case that the people protesting so vociferously were full of shit, just kneejerk defending all things Obama.  How am I to know whether you are doing the same or whether you are coming in here with respect and in good faith to inform?

        What you say makes sense.  The way you say it hardly contributes to the fact-based community you seem to want dkos to be.  Being fact-based doesn't mean that everyone is right all the time--an impossibility.  It means a determination to submit claims to open discussion in good faith with the belief that such open discussion is more likely to produce accurate knowledge than any other procedure we humans know.

        I appreciate the apology.  That helps.  But if you were worse downthread than here under the tip jar, I dread getting there.

        For now, I'm assuming this isn't just another boring diary hijack of the kind that we see in virtually any diary deemed harmful to the Democratic brand.

        These are the kinds of cranks, menaces, mercenaries, and authoritarians you will turn this country over to? - KO

        by geomoo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:29:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Buy low, sell high, oops, shit, I gave away their (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Badabing

        trading strategy. Well, now that it is over, there is no need to seal the courtroom for the duration, but only when they discuss details of the code which won't happen, so I guess we get an open courtroom.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

        by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 10:06:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Just a second... (22+ / 0-)

      I make no brief for Goldman, but your criticism is of what Holder is doing.  And it seems to me that the paragraph that you truncated --

      Federal prosecutors have argued that the general public should not be allowed to observe the trial when details of Goldman’s trade secrets are discussed. They also asked that any documents related to Goldman’s trading strategies be sealed.  While it is common to protect proprietary corporate information during trials, the case of Aleynikov is unusual because it involves "secrets about a potentially lucrative trading system, rather than, say, ingredients in a soda formula," wrote the Wall Street Journal.

      (I've included the part you left out) -- just doesn't seem that unreasonable.  Actual trade secrets are, and ought to be, protected in trials -- otherwise you get dicey suits to try to pry them open.  Saying that this is "unusual" doesn't mean that it's wrong.

      You seem to infer and imply that DOJ wants to cover up GS's actions.  No, that's not what's going on here.  The court will be well able to find GS guilty regardless.  But there is a presumption of innocence, even here, and not sealing this evidence prior to the conclusion of the trial would risk taking away from them something extremely valuable if it is judged to be legal.

      Holder's doing the right and responsible thing here.  It's not making sure that the truth doesn't come out, it's simply acting to ensure a fair trial with a rebuttable presumption of innocence.  This is what fairness in the judicial process looks like.

      •  but that would defeat the purpose of the diarist (5+ / 0-)

        to stir up anti-Obama sentiment before the election.

        "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

        by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:26:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'll note my error here: (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PeterHug, Cedwyn, Sybil Liberty, pico

        I had forgotten that this was a criminal trial of Sergei A., not anything about Goldman Sachs, so different (but related) considerations come into play.  Goldman is the purported victim of a theft; this may be determined to be legitimate whistleblowing (or whatever the defense is instead), but either way we don't require the alleged victim to give up their trade secrets -- a variety of privacy rights -- for the prosecution to proceed.  Holder is still doing the right thing here, even if Goldman is the main wrongdoer here.  That would have to be grist for a different trial.  Criticism on the ground that there is no trial of Goldman is distinct from criticism that Goldman should have to -- breaking out a metaphor here --  bare its ass on camera so the world can televise exactly where it got shot.

        •  I think a big part of the problem here... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slinkerwink, Badabing, geomoo, Wolf10, LaneJ

          ... is the inherent MISTRUST of just about anything Eric Holder does. And not just what he does, but what he DOESN'T do. Of course I'm talking about the total lack of anything approaching holding Bush and the other war criminals accountable for their crimes.

          Prosecution of bank fraudsters? Nope.

          Threats of prosecution for marijuana? Yep.

          Prosecution of whistleblowers? Of course.

          Prosecution of Bush and other war criminals? Are you KIDDING me?! Sing it with me now... "Oh let's look forward, can't look back! Let's just turn... the... page!"

          "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

          by ratmach on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:17:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This diary isn't about "Is Holder a good guy?" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cedwyn

            or "is DOJ protecting Goldman Sachs."  It makes a specific allegation of wrongdoing and that allegation is completely misplaced.  It hurts the cause you support.

            •  But that wasn't what I meant (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Badabing

              I meant that the reason so many people will sort of "assume the worst" about Holder (like the allegations in this diary) is due to Holder's own actions/inactions. I wasn't making a statement one way or the other on the point this diary is making (since I don't know the legal criteria involved).

              "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

              by ratmach on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:03:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Some non lawyers would probably just shake there (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Badabing, ratmach

              head at the contortions necessary for a justice system that must respect this statement under our nations current circumstances.

              Goldman is the purported victim of a theft;

              That is until they see their financial lives crumbling before them and just get really really pissed off and start shaking their fists instead.

          •  Yes, but it's worse that not prosecuting. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pico, Seneca Doane, Badabing

            In the case of the Guantanamo "suicides," there is every appearance of an active cover up, including blowing off highly decorated military men who stepped forward after Obama was elected under the belief that a new administration would be interested in using their evidence to prosecute what they felt was criminal behavior.

            I think badabing is wrong here.  I don't think that proves that everyone who ever criticized Holder's DOJ is an idiot.

            These are the kinds of cranks, menaces, mercenaries, and authoritarians you will turn this country over to? - KO

            by geomoo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:49:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And that's been a big problem in the (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cedwyn, geomoo, ratmach

              comments section here, that it's becoming another surrogate battle in the 'bigger' fight between people who (allegedly) uncritically love Obama and (allegedly) uncritically hate him.  Which makes it hard to sort through the chaff.

              And then it carries over to the next round of arguments, etc.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:57:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Your comments are an oasis in this desert, pico. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pico

                Thank you.

                This timing is unfortunate.  I have been avoiding any hint of this "bigger fight" leading up to the election.  Perhaps the wisest thing for all of us who know better is simply to leave the diary?

                I realized a very sad thing today.  I still think Dems will retain the House--I just do.  But if they don't, I just realized that this time around we won't be naively united as we were against Bush.  More likely is that this site will be torn apart with the competing ideas.  Incidentally, I believe this well-defined polarity is more than a little bit a result of conscious manipulation by skillful parties for the purpose of weakening liberal influence.

                These are the kinds of cranks, menaces, mercenaries, and authoritarians you will turn this country over to? - KO

                by geomoo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:03:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I think what this diary and the comments show... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Badabing

                ... is that there's a real need for a diary doing a complete/thorough critique of Holder's actions/inactions so far. Because I have a feeling if that's done, then even if the specific accusations in Badabing's diary turn out not to be valid, there are PLENTY more where those came from.

                "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

                by ratmach on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:07:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I agree, although I would add (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slinkerwink, Badabing

          that I'm not sure the practices the trade-secret-protected code enable should be legal.

          Actually, I'm pretty sure that I would prefer them not to be.  But that's a separate issue.

    •  This software was never in the wild, (15+ / 0-)

      nor has it entered the wild.

      Since this is secret intellectual property, which would revel way to much of the GS brewed trading platforms and their connection interface to global market feeds, it is quite right that this is done behind closed doors.

      Hate them as you might, Goldman Sachs is due just as much due process as you or I.

      I happen to know a little about the code in question, as much as my white hat will let me say, it has less to do with the schema of the flash trading fraud (frontrunning is what it technically is) as it does with the interface between Goldman Sachs and the markets.

      In short, as hardware modems are to software modems, as are hardware switches/routers to this code.

      It is patented, it is privately held and it is a trade secret.

      If you are looking to uphold rule of law, then Holder actually is doing so by protecting the private intellectual property of Goldman Sachs.

      What you want are after are the algos, go find out what a "Goldman Collar" is. What is in question here is the machine interface to the market feeds.

      Nothing more, nothing less. But is a perfect would, this code would be open source so all could enjoy this huge jump in technology.

  •  This case is the final straw (35+ / 0-)

    I pulled all of my money out of the market when I read the original story of the "theft". Why this program was ever allowed, and why it wasn't immediatly prohibited when discovered told me all I need to know on the regulatory environment on Wall Street.
    I thought the theif was home free, because GS would never want a trial on this case, but it looks like they will get their cake and eat it too.

  •  Holder is not on the ballot tomorrow (8+ / 0-)

    but nice try though.

    •  Sure, he is. Obama picked him. (38+ / 0-)

      Obama is campaigning for Democrats.  

      The buck stops with Obama.  If Obama picked a bad AG, it is his fault.

      Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

      by gooderservice on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:46:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Glad to see you (9+ / 0-)

        following the RW and MSM narratives of making everything about President Obama - for the negative reports only.

        Funny though, I've not seen neither you nor this diarist mention a single POSITIVE thing that this AG has done (and there have been many). If you are not aware, it's because you aren't interested.

      •  GAH and the messager is assauted here. (7+ / 8-)

        It is why Obama is getting NOTHING at the polls for the other DEMs and why the progressives are chewing their hair and spitting out teeth at this SOB.

        He is now in line for endless GOP investigations etc with the House going GOP but noooooooooo, he can't fucking hold one corporation or Bush Cheney war criminal accountable through his DOJ? Fuck this and fuck Barack Obama for this.

        •  I'd rather (0+ / 0-)

          Have Obama fixing our country right now, and building a new foundation for our economy than sending people to jail for trading practices that aren't illegal.

          "Whenever you have truth it must be given with love, or the message and the messenger will be rejected" ~Mahatma Gandhi

          by Kiku on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:24:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Front Running Is Illegal (30+ / 0-)

            Front running, as alleged in this diary, is illegal.

            If the trial is closed, we won't be able to tell when the trial turns up indications that GS has been front running.

            I'd rather have Obama sending people to jail for illegal trading that helped destroy our economy, and fixing our country with a new foundation for our economy, than covering it up and ensuring it happens again.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:32:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It is highly improbably that all of the Wall (6+ / 0-)

            Street practices were legal. How the hell can bringing down the economy of an entire country be legal???  I don't believe it for a second.

            I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

            by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:45:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Somebody needs to go to jail or things (10+ / 0-)

              will never change. People have occasionally gone to jail, but a few here and there hasn't been much of a deterrant. Send 50 of these bastards to prison within a year or so and that just might convince others to play by the rules.

              Progressive principles won't be worth jack if we let the GOP "take their country back".

              by JTinDC on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:57:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The administration (12+ / 0-)

                gave them a pass not only on illegal trading.. but the green light to continue it.  BTW.. the derivative trading that originally crashed the economy? Its still legal and still being practiced as we speak.

                And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:01:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know! And that's what is so infuriating. (5+ / 0-)

                  FinReg was entirely insufficient to the size and scope of problem. It was like a band-aid on a limb that was cut off!!

                  Even if Obama and the Dems couldn't get a better bill pushed through because of the GOP obstinancy, they should have shouted from the roof tops non-stop about what Wall Street is doing, AND how the GOP was enabling it to continue by denying legislation that would discontinue the behaviour. Instead, Obama, Pelosi, etc, parade around the country and talk shows talking about historic this legislation is and blah, blah, blah...... Lets be fucking REAL here people!!!!!  My god, they wonder why the GOP and Independents hate them and are leaving in droves. They wonder why so many Dems are disgusted and have an "enthusiasm gap". Christ, all they have to do is remember what it was like b4 they became a politician and were honest and forthright human beings. THEN they'd get it.

                  NO PASS FOR OBAMA OR ANYONE ELSE THAT LIES, BETRAYS, AND COVERS UP FRAUD THAT EFFECTS 310 MILLION LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  BTW---I voted Dem straight down the ticket. They are flawed but better than the GOP. I advocate strongly that EVERYONE else do the same. But by god, hold those bastards accountable for their actions, or lack thereof, or we'll never have real change we can believe in.

                  I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                  by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:47:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  They're either dimwits (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kbman, Uberbah, Badabing, Lucy2009

                    or on the payroll. I used to think dimwits.... i was naive then.

                    If the democrats had gone after the big banks and the thieves who crashed our economy we'd be picking up 100 house seats and a dozen senate seats. Instead they elected to be cowardly, quiet and stay on the payroll. With noteable exceptions like the Honorable Alan Grayson, Bernie Sanders et al.. you know those "evil professional lefties".

                    And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                    by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:47:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I LOVE "evil professional lefties". :) (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      cdreid, Badabing

                      I agree wholeheartedly. I think if Obama and the Dem Congress had just gone in and handled the hell out of this Wall Street situation, that the GOP wouldn't know what hit them after this election. Even Righties like my dad, would be forced to vote for Dems if they did that!

                      I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                      by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:05:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  The reluctance to prosecute (17+ / 0-)

                across the board - wall street, war crimes, corruption, etc... is one of the reasons we are in the position we are in.

                Prosecutions serve multiple purposes.  It's not just about deterrence or punishment.  you prosecute to establish clearly the rules, to assign culpability and blame clearly, and to establish the historical record.

                If you refuse to prosecute, over and over again, the law loses meaning.  Obama's desire for reconciliation at any price is not only terrible politics but it sets a horrible precedent.  The US is prosecuting computer code theft, not the underlying crime of illegal trading, and this sends the worst possible signal right now.  

                "Die Stimme der Vernuft ist leise." (The voice of reason is soft)

                by ivorybill on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:09:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Excellent, excellent point. (5+ / 0-)

                  It also brings a collective sigh of relief to the citizenry when justice is upheld. People don't like being ripped-off. It creates upset, and anger. When justice is served, it is a way to release the anger and pain that the culprit cultivates.

                  I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                  by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:56:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  like the SEC *FAIL* on Countrywide's fraud (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Badabing, Wolf10, Lucy2009

                $260 million in profits, $50 million in fines.  Deterrence FAIL.

                ThAnswr "If the administration can't fight for it's friends, don't expect us to fight their enemies."

                by Uberbah on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:50:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  As i doubt you really Get what (11+ / 0-)

            DocGonzo was talking about here is One of the things they were doing:

            When you place a buy order for stock they dont actually relay that stock order to the floor. You placed a buy for 100 shares of acme at $40 each max. The computer system then looks for the best price it can get on the stock. There is a sell for 100 at $37. And a sell for 100 at $40. The computer "jumps" your buy and buys 100 for goldman at $38 through a special "first priority" system. It then offers to sell that stock to you at $39.5. The "nonpriority" system then buys that stock for you at $39.5.

            That is Insider trading. It is illegal as hell. The wall street companies have been doing it for years and the Obama admin has given them a pass in order to shore them up. Not only that theyre allowing it to continue.

            So the next time you buy a stock from one of these big companies remember that the company youre paying a fee to buy the stock for you is literally buying the stock, bidding it up, then sellign it to you.

            BTW in that transaction they just ripped you off for $250.

            Starting to see why being part of the reality based community instead of the hero worship community is a little healthier for us?

            And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

            by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:00:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you don't know what you are talking about (0+ / 0-)

              there are many more broker/dealers around that have the same market sensitivity as any other.  The Liquidity they provide means PENNIES in price movement - not Dollars.

              And insider trading is by COMPANY insiders - not broker/dealers.

              "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

              by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:22:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Jesus christ are you slow????? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Uberbah, Badabing, ohmyheck

                Do you have a mental deficiency??

                This isnt some shocking conspiracy theory this is something theyve Been caught doing, admitted to doing and are continuing to do

                You're a trader? God help the people whos money you deal with.

                And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:34:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  again - your ignorance (0+ / 0-)

                  I may be 5 seconds behind the dealers but I am 10 minutes AHEAD of the general public.

                  You should be in mutual funds, pal.

                  "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

                  by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:43:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Im going to be kind (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kbman, Uberbah, Badabing

                    what im talking about is NOT what you do for a living. In fact unless you can use a phone to call the floor yourself theyre ripping Your customers off and you as well. This isnt about microtransactions or transaction speed. This is about the equivalent of a virus intentionally stuck in the system to rip off customers.

                    There is a criminal case on point here. I believe it was Kevin Mitnick. He injected a routine in a banks system. When your bank calculated interest etc it would round up and allocate the funds. The change he made was  instead of rounding it would deposit the difference in his bank account. Which seems near harmless til you have billions of transactions. He was arrested and sent to jail. If a "hacker" had inserted this code the DOJ would crush him. Instead the corporation itself inserted code very similar to this (and it isnt unbelievable that a coder remembered the idea and suggested this similar scheme).

                    People attacking the rampant fraud and corruption in your industry shouldnt raise your hackles. You should cheer them on because the obvious corruption keeps you from making a whole lot more money and our economic system from functioning a lot more efficiently.

                    And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                    by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:45:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you just gave an example of price spread of (0+ / 0-)

                      $37 bid and $40 ask.

                      Quit digging.  You don't know shit.  

                      The reality is $38.41 bid and $38.42 ask.

                      "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

                      by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:03:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh dear lord man. Seriously?????? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Badabing

                        Now your nitpicking over imaginary numbers. Please go away. You obviously dont even understand the business you got out of selling used junk cars to get into.

                        And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                        by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:26:39 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  then tell me how he is doing this ok? nt. (0+ / 0-)
            •  Building our economy? Sure... (0+ / 0-)

              Small Business Jobs Act, September 23, 2010

              Manufacturing Enhancement Act, August 11, 2010

              The Recovery Act:

              Transforming to a Clean Energy Economy

              The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act included more than $80 billion in the generation of renewable energy sources, expanding manufacturing capacity for clean energy technology, advancing vehicle and fuel technologies, and building a bigger, better, smarter electric grid, all while creating new, sustainable jobs.  This includes two new manufacturing plants.

              Jump-starting High-Speed Rail
              Advancing Use of Health IT, Training Workers for Health Jobs of the Future
              Building a Smarter, More Reliable Energy Grid
              Expanding Broadband Access

              Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010 March 30, 2010

              Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act of 2009 May 22, 2009

              The HIRE Act

              National Export Initiative

              That's enough to make my point.

              "Whenever you have truth it must be given with love, or the message and the messenger will be rejected" ~Mahatma Gandhi

              by Kiku on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 01:36:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Just too far (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Iberian, Cedwyn, kalmoth, corvo, trashablanca

          Your comment was fine up until the last phrase.  I'm certainly NOT a member of the presidential defenders squad, but this comment should be hidden.

          FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
          BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

          by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:44:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For criticising our elected leaders? (6+ / 0-)

            For telling a politician to go to hell?

            Youre in the wrong place..

            And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

            by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:53:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Go to hell would have been fine (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cedwyn, trashablanca

              fuck Barack Obama for this

              Is beyond the pale.  See comment below ...

              FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
              BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

              by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:02:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Please. Your undue sensitivities are noted (8+ / 0-)

                He's not king, nor is a robust "fuck you" to him unwarranted under the circumstances.  Doesn't mean that we want him to fail, it's just a frustrated response to his self-inflicted failure on behalf of the rich and powerful.

                After his "doin' a heckuva job" about Summers on the Daily Show, it's become evident that he just doesn't fucking get it.  SO no, in this particular context neither "go to hell" OR "fuck Obama for this" is beyond the pale.  Some of us are sick of being urged to coddle this administration.  They are a big part of the reason Democrats are going to lose ground big time tomorrow, because they are not acting like Democrats, but Republican-lite.  Holder's move as outline in this diary is just one of many examples of this.

                [Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbrai

                by Vtdblue on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:20:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Et tu Vtdblue? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zett, trashablanca, Vtdblue

                  I should think you'd recognize me by now as being one of the people consistently siding against the cheerleading faction here at DK.  I am simply being fair in my community moderation practices.  This type of statement is needlessly inflammatory.  The same frustration and anger could have been expressed in a more acceptable way but was not.

                  I agree with the thrust of the diary and have followed and rec'd many of badabing's diaries regarding the financial fraud that is being enabled by members of this administration.  But that doesn't mean that I choose to be blindly tribal in how I approach community moderation.  Over the line is over the line regardless of whether it's someone I typically agree with or one of Christin, missliberties, and fcvaguy's fellow squad members.

                  FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
                  BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

                  by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:32:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I didn't look closely enough, kbman, to recognize (5+ / 0-)

                    you until after I'd fired off those responses. See apology below, as I do apologize now. I understand why you want to keep a lid on it until the bitter end tomorrow. I'm just frustrated as hell tonight, for reasons having to do with the unnecessary losses we're about to suffer, and other shit that's going on that has nothing to do with anyone here.

                    So, again, sorry about the ill-considered attack on a kindred spirit. I know it's likely to deteriorate into pie fighting after the election, anyway. But while I might agree that there are subtle distinctions between telling these jerks to go to hell and saying fuck them for things such as Holder's antics, the thought bubble saying far worse these days.

                    [Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbrai

                    by Vtdblue on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:40:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  We're not "putting you on a side" (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Uberbah

                    or questioning either your intent, honor, or intellect.

                    What we're saying is the day i cant say Fuck Obama is the day everything we do here is a joke.

                    And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                    by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:49:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  No, it seems that you, and everybody else (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            3goldens, khereva

            willing to comment honestly about the real world is, only cheerleaders are permitted, according to the rules as envisioned by certain participants.

            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

            by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:56:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh give me a fucking break (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cdreid, 3goldens, blueoasis

              I am one of the active opponents of "the cheerleaders", just ask Christin - she hates me with a passion for calling out her bullshit and the bullshit of many of the rest of the presidential defenders crew.  AND, writing this -

              fuck Barack Obama for this

              is going too far.  ESPECIALLY the day before the election.  It simply has no place on this site.  If we are going to be fair with community moderation it means HR'ing people with whom we fundamentally agree when they cross the line.  This is one of those circumstances.

              FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
              BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

              by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:01:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My friend (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alizard, kbman, Badabing, Vtdblue

                Christian hating you is all the bonafides anyone should require. But i think tring people for saying fuck (politician) is way too much.

                And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:03:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I disagree, especially around election time (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  3goldens

                  It is inflammatory and serves no helpful purpose.  All it does is give the cheer squad something to get all pissy about.  Part of the intent of the new community moderation rules here at DKos is to enable discussion without inflaming, insulting, and generally being disagreeable.  There were many ways the comment in question could have been handled without resorting to "fuck Obama."

                  FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
                  BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

                  by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:08:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Dude, the election is all but over tonight, and (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    cdreid, Uberbah, Badabing, enhydra lutris

                    while it is up to the admin. and community as a whole to decide what's inflammatory or not, I gotta say I'm surprised that you're this sensitive about this under the circumstances.  The WH has been committing countless acts of Establishment/plutocracy-supporting, opaque, and anti-middle class policy making, and they deserve a big measure of enmity for placing all of us in this predicament -- with the Repugs and Teabaggers poised to make huge gains.  

                    Seriously, man.  They deserve a little FU displeasure, as least for a time while we regroup and figure out how to fight both their bad policy and that of the Repugs.

                    [Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbrai

                    by Vtdblue on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:26:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, actually GOTV efforts are ongoing (0+ / 0-)

                      through this evening and tomorrow.  Enthusiasm and effort still matter and needlessly spewing inflammatory phrases is simply not helpful.  There will be PLENTY of time moving forward for our complaints to be made loud and clear.  In that regard, I have a diary about authoritarian followers at Daily Kos that I have been putting off until after the election.  The reason for putting it off is that I want to actually be able to have a discussion about the topic instead of being shouted down as not helping the election effort.  There will still be those who shout it down, but they will be proving the point of the diary as they do so.

                      FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
                      BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

                      by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:43:12 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I understand your point, of course, but you're (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kbman, Uberbah, Badabing

                        not being shouted down here, just disagreed with. Perhaps you're right that there might be some damn fools out there who would let a "negative" discussion on DKos influence their GOTV tomorrow, but I'm skeptical. I do, however, respect the reasons for your views on this, since I too have been working on GOTV, and will continue tomorrow to do the same.

                        So I'm sorry, genuinely, if I came off harshly above, because I know you're fighting the good fight, and are not among the authoritarian true believers. I'm just furious the we've been scammed, and anxious to try to take back the Party from the scammers before it's too effing late (Citizens United is a ticking clock of inevitability, you would no doubt agree).

                        [Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbrai

                        by Vtdblue on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:31:55 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  The day we cant say (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Badabing, enhydra lutris

                    fuck you to a politician is the day this site and the constitution become complete and utter jokes.

                    And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

                    by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:33:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry, but that isn't hideworthy, just (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alizard, khereva, Uberbah, Badabing

                disagreeable, to varying degrees, to varying persons. The bullshit about the day before an election shows your HR to be pure cheerleading, because the day of the week, month or year has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with the validity or invalidity of any comment.

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:07:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Bullshit (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lawrence

                  because the day of the week, month or year has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with the validity or invalidity of any comment.

                  This is a partisan Democratic blog and the election is tomorrow.  There is a time to hold our politicians feet to the fire and I have done more than my share on DKos, but that time does not include the weeks leading up to the election.  As far as your continued claim that I am a cheerleader, you are so clueless it is not even funny.

                  FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
                  BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

                  by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:22:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not so clueless as yo try to deny my (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Badabing

                    actions in the very thread in which I perform them. That honor belongs to you. Whatever you may or may not have been in the past, you HR'd somebody for being critical and showing insufficient deference when comenting upon a specific administration act. That behavior is a fact and determines what, here and now, you are acting as, and it appears that your actions justify my earlier comment, which posted as a reply to you instead of its intended recipient, but which is only garbled and not falsified by that.

                    I'll not address the monstrously fallacious horseshit you posted about how the day of the week, month or year alters the validity of things, as I'm sure you'll wake up some day and retract it.

                    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                    by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:51:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  monstrously fallacious? OK, tell you what (0+ / 0-)

                      Post a diary tonight or tomorrow with the primary theme being "Fuck you Obama" and see how it does.  See how quickly your tip jar fills with HRs.  The imminent election DOES matter, at this site more so than most places on the internet.

                      Furthermore, consider what hiding a comment does - it keeps it from being viewed by non-members and members without TU status.  We've already had a diary today telling of African American voters "rejecting" Obama - perfect fodder for the right wing media: "Even the Daily Kos website says that African Americans are turning away from Obama."  Or in this instance: "The liberals are turning against Obama, even using the F-bomb to attack him on Daily Kos."

                      I don't mind as much if this kind of shit is out there Wednesday.  Tonight and tomorrow I DO mind.  In case you hadn't noticed the GOP is FAR worse than it used to be.  I'm not particularly thrilled with most Democrats as I think they are corporate tools of the oligarchs.  The Republicans, on the other hand, are downright fascist in ideology and practice.  I want the Democrats to at least do better than expected tomorrow.  If that means I'm a cheerleader then so be it.  I think it just means that I'm sane and have a sense of self-preservation.

                      FOX News is for people who can't handle reality ...
                      BTW - read The Authoritarians free here.

                      by kbman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:42:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                        Post a diary tonight or tomorrow with the primary theme being "Fuck you Obama" and see how it does.

                        Proving waht? BTW: that isn't remotely comparable and is also monstrously fallacious on that grounds, but it also proves nothing whatsoever about the validity or invalidity of the post.

                        Post a diary 2 weeks from now with the primary theme being "Fuck ou Obama" and it would fill up with donuts, so your feeble attempt supporting your censorship efforts is self defeating.

                        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                        by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:31:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  BTW, if your bitch is really about the timing, (0+ / 0-)

                        then you should bitch at the AG's office, they determined the timing. Neither they nor any other person can avoid criticism for their actions simply by timing them to fall on dates that some sects and other folks consider to be sacred dates.

                        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                        by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:40:06 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  I hate to uprate this, but your HR is such a (0+ / 0-)

            steaming pile of crap that I must.

            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

            by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:57:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Delusional Republican (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Badabing

          Operative posting passing as a progressive. Get lost

      •  Obama is not on the ballot, either. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn, 3goldens, Overseas

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:05:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama is deeply flawed as a President. (15+ / 0-)

        He is joined-at-the-hip with Wall Street. Totally beholden, bought and paid for. They will be the downfall of his Presidency. They are part-and-parcel with the recession, unemployment, housing, etc, etc.......  They run the country, not the Dems and not the GOP.

        Obama can't say no to them, he can't investigate them for real, he can't monitor and restrict them as necessary, he can't prosecute them for their crimes. They OWN him.  

        So disappointing.

        I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

        by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:40:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I just can't believe (7+ / 0-)

          not one of these criminals hasn't gone to prison.

          Obama sure fooled us. Didn't he?

          •  Sure as heck did. One might suggest he even (6+ / 0-)

            lied to us.  We got played, big time, despite the ridiculous notion put forth by many of the cheerleaders here that we should have KNOWN that he was more conservative than he was coming across as.  Sorry, but that's utter bullshit.  He's more conservative than Richard Nixon by many demonstrable domestic policy measures, and clearly has not been forced into most of these positions, but embraced them.

            [Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbrai

            by Vtdblue on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:30:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yep..... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              slinkerwink, Uberbah, Badabing

              But it's not conservative at all to allow the economy of an entire country to topple on it's head!!  Which is exactly what will happen again if things aren't truely sorted out and brought under control.

              It's not that he's conservative and we should have known it from what he said while campaigning. It's that he's corrupt and weak and not doing what's needed to handle the situation.

              I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

              by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:16:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Having once been among his most ardent admirers, (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                slinkerwink, Uberbah, Badabing, Lucy2009

                I'm not sure I am ready yet to concede "corrupt." Weak in many regards, and deluded about how things actually work, yes.  But I don't quite yet think he's overtly corrupt. More naive and bamboozled. However, having said that, I cannot refute with any evidence, of course, your thesis.

                [Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbrai

                by Vtdblue on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:24:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Another commenter told me a similar thing. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Uberbah, Badabing

                  They don't think he is corrupt, but rather he doesn't have the necessary horsepower to pull off what is needed to get things done as a President.

                  I hadn't looked at it like that b4, but I'm going to mull it over and see what I think about that.

                  Like you, I was an ardent admirer. Really excited, and hopeful and just thought he was an amazing, brilliant, and wonderful person. Since he's been elected though, he's been a total anomaly for me!

                  Maybe he had the charisma, excellent ideas, brilliant oratory skills, but not the brutishness needed to get an agenda through in this current political environment?

                  Thanks for your thoughts.

                  I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                  by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:59:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Obama is not deeply flawed. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slinkerwink, Uberbah, Badabing, Lucy2009

          He's in the wrong job. He's a committee chairman and not a president.  

          I don't think Obama is corrupt.  Just out of his league and clueless.  

          The only thing that will save the sorry asses of the Democrats is the Republicans.

          by ThAnswr on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:45:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's an interesting idea. I'll let that one (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            slinkerwink, Uberbah, Badabing, ThAnswr

            simmer for awhile.  I was just so convinced while watching him campaign that he just had this whole thing so figured out, and was so smart, and so able to pull-off the impossible. Because I was so convinced of that, and because things have gone so wrong since he took office, and because of all the MILLIONS of dollars he accepted from Wall Street.... I've just assumed he's corrupt.

            But maybe you are right. Maybe he's simply not up to the task. It's certainly a much nicer and kinder way to view it. I'll mull it over.    :)

            He's really been an anomaly for me. I want to love him so badly. I admired him SO greatly b4 the election  and shortly after. I so believed in what he espoused, and the idea of him. Maybe he is all those wonderful things, yet not endowed with the necessary horsepower that a Presidency requires to pull it all off???

            I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

            by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:21:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  All of the above...I think these last three (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Uberbah, ThAnswr, Lucy2009

              comments encompass my thoughts...exactly...

              What we fail to understand is this essential truth:

              No Senator or Congressman will demand (no matter what party) how to rebuild the Middle Class, how to stop stop selling our jobs overseas)

              The same is true, for how Wall St/the Banks have taken over, and still the same is true for any real hope of Campaign refinancing....

              We are now fully in a state of what I can only call, true and utter Oligarchy, and why in the hell, would our Senators/Congress people vote themselves out of the greatest jobs in the world?  

              They have the greatest health care, they give themselves raises every year, without our approval, they continue to anti up the wars, which is the only employment in our nation, now that our entire manufacturing base and Unions have been destroyed, and now one..

              least of all President Obama, has called for the end of corruption..

              I love my party, and I always will, but I will not abide, those that have been paid off, at the expense, of those now living in their cars...for the sake of the so called two party system, that cares nothing about who has paid the greatest price, and still wants us all to get all..............

              "Fired up and ready to go"...........

              for who and for what is my question?

              I'm tired on this site of listening to the 'Laws' when the 'Laws' are bereft of humanity or carrying for our fellow man...........I'm tired of listening to those on this site, who do not remember what our original party platform was all about.........and then have the audacity, to call me a turn coat..

              I will not back down as the FRAUD TO COVER UP THE FRAUD continues, no matter what anyone calls me for those that have suffered the greatest at the hands of both parties, that do not give a shit about us any longer........

              and then have the amazing arrogance...........

              to call it the law...the law does not mean a god damned thing if it dose not protect those that pay the greatest price..

              and I do not care, if anyone on this site does not agree with me...

              This is what John F. Kennedy taught me, as did his family as did FDR...

              I'm sorry if the rest of you forgot how humanity, ethics, and morality mattered...

              I have not, and I never will....

              that is why we are facing this crazy tea party shit...

              good luck to those that 'stick to the laws' and do not understand what I have said:

              The moral rot of America is upon us, and its' not just about hiding the truth is indeed, carrying for one another.

              When we find that again, we will find the soul of our nation, and the soul of the Democratic Party.

              Ms. b.

              •  Brilliant! :) (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Badabing

                I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:58:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  thanks Lucy, I love my party..no one gets that. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Uberbah, Lucy2009
                  •  Your welcome. I understand. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Uberbah, Badabing

                    You can love someone, or something, and still feel betrayed by it, and call it out for it's misbehaviour and bad deeds.  

                    The thing that worries me is that if the Dem Party doesn't get with the program soon, that the "difference gap" between Parties will become less and less distinguishable. That would be such a shame, and so hard on so many people in this country.

                    I hope it doesn't come down to that. But we surely do need that Change We Can Believe In.    :)

                    I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                    by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 11:05:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  When I voted for Obama, I knew he had a razor ... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Uberbah, Badabing, Lucy2009

              ..... thin resume.  However, I did think he had some grand plan and just needed the opportunity and the right people to put it in motion.  

              I came to my senses with the nomination of Emanuel and the rest of the Clinton/DLC/corporatist retreads.  There was no plan.  It was all just a series of pretty speeches by a person with extraordinary speech making skills.

              It had all been a brilliant campaign that covered up the fact that there was no there there and good intentions do not make for good leadership.  

              Obama seems like a nice enough fellow.  I'm sure he's a wonderful husband and father.  Maybe with a few more years of seasoning in the Senate, he might have evolved into an effective leader.  

              Without the seasoning, Obama's instincts are to deal his way through everything.  Unfortunately for him, there are very few honest brokers in Washington and the presidency requires leadership and not just someone who can broker a deal.    

              The only thing that will save the sorry asses of the Democrats is the Republicans.

              by ThAnswr on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 01:44:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Interesting. I like the idea of what you say, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Uberbah, Badabing

                but the thing that keeps coming back to me is why would he hire people like Emmanuel, Geithner, Summers, etc. Obama is so smart, he has to be able to see that these folks weren't/aren't looking out for our best interests. I understand not liking contention. My hubby is like that, and it's a great hubby quality. LOL  But, that doesn't explain bringing and keeping people on board that aren't doing the right thing, does it?  

                Not liking contention might explain some things like pretending that Olympia Snow will play nice in the sand box on HCR, but it doesn't explain having backroom deals with Big Pharm, Ins Co's, etc when he specifically said he wouldn't do so.

                What do you think about that?  

                I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                by Lucy2009 on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 11:30:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  OBAMA (10+ / 0-)

        is NOT running for office tomorrow.

        To repeat: the corporatist bluedog in the whitehoue is NOT ON THE BALLOT.

        Do Not punish hardworking Progressive Democratic Congresspeople and Senators for what Obama and his Yellowdogs do.

        And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

        by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:52:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed. Tomorrow is about salvaging the ship (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cdreid, Uberbah, Badabing

          so that it does not completely sink in 2012, despite the best efforts to blow holes in the hull, and ensure their demise, by this administration.

          [Conservatives are] engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; ...the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. JK Galbrai

          by Vtdblue on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:31:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Obama may not be running. But .......... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cdreid, Uberbah, Badabing

          ....... every poor chump who shares a "D" with him is.  

          The only thing that will save the sorry asses of the Democrats is the Republicans.

          by ThAnswr on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:46:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  but who's actually doing that? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cdreid, Badabing

          Do Not punish hardworking Progressive Democratic Congresspeople and Senators for what Obama and his Yellowdogs do.

          I don't see any progressives saying they wont vote for Grayson or Feingold because they are pissed at Obama.

          I've decided on a firm policy of no more villain rotation - but that doesn't mean I'm not voting for good Dems tomorrow.

          ThAnswr "If the administration can't fight for it's friends, don't expect us to fight their enemies."

          by Uberbah on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:59:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There are trolls here (0+ / 0-)

            and you know exactly who they are, who are here specifically to stealth troll and sew discord. Two of them have the obama in their name. One is flat out sociopathic. And at least a dozen others. Sadly markos little "moderation project" has turned out to be a handy tool for the trolls and a bane on the community.

            And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

            by cdreid on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 02:17:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Plenty of Democrats who are on the relevant (12+ / 0-)

      committees are though, yet I have not heard of a single hearing into this software (although I may have missed it)

      •  its because there is no "there" there (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DaleA, sherijr, MartyM

        Obama created the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission which was part of the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act of 2009 signed by President Obama in early 2009.

        The Commission has subpoenaed Goldman and testimony followed.  The results will be released Dec 15th.

        Meanwhile, conspiracy theory sites like Zerohead are whipping their readers into a frenzy in front of the election.

        "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

        by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:08:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are joking right? (6+ / 0-)

          The Angelides Commission?  That pathetic set of hearings wasn't worth the catering.

        •  If you need the extent (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Uberbah, Badabing, ohmyheck

          of the lawbreaking going on and an explanation of whats wrong with it i did so in a comment above as have many others. Rather than relying on "authority" to tell you what to think perhaps you should use that agile mind of yours to do so yourself?

          And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

          by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:05:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm a full time trader and want the HFT's (0+ / 0-)

            to continue.

            I like liquidity and price action and there is not a fucking shred of evidence that "fraud" exists.

            Equities move on news and fundamentals and HFT's are my friend when I need price movement.

            "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

            by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:15:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Youre dense then (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, Badabing, ohmyheck

              and while others may be impressed by the "trader" thing.. we both know it means "salesman". I have friends who were traders.

              What dont you understand about insider trading/frontrunning? We'll explain it slower if youd like.

              And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

              by cdreid on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:32:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  More ignorant shit from your piehole (0+ / 0-)

                Insider trading is the trading of a corporation's stock or other securities (e.g. bonds or stock options) by individuals with potential access to non-public information about the company. In most countries, trading by corporate insiders such as officers, key employees, directors, and large shareholders may be legal, if this trading is done in a way that does not take advantage of non-public information.

                Flash trading is technical and affects thousands of equities simultaneously.

                Insider trading is by individuals.

                "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

                by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:56:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  what, no DADT diary to troll? (11+ / 0-)

      ThAnswr "If the administration can't fight for it's friends, don't expect us to fight their enemies."

      by Uberbah on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:12:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your Tunnel Vision (11+ / 0-)

      No, holder isn't on any ballot. To you, that means no one can talk negatively about him, especially not on Election Eve.

      What kind of nonsense is that?

      Hyperpartisan nonsense.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:30:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this has never been a partisan issue to me Doc, (9+ / 0-)

        and it never will be...

        this is about how we lost our moral compass as a nation, but I love my fucking party.........

        I lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve the Democratic party...

        doesn't anyone get that at all?  I know you all do too...

        but the longer we hold off the FRAUD TO COVER UP THE FRAUD....to pretend that the laws are ok, to cover up the fraud, the longer we are going to pay...

        I really am at a thin line now...a very thin line...

        and I know all my loving Democrats are at too..

        We must face, who has led us here and why...We cannot as a party...the party of the Working Man's Woman's party, the party of the Middle Class who is being buried, by both parties, to lose any longer..

        My Granny from Kilkenney Ireland told me this story soon after she moved this country:

        She has six children, she watched as her youngest, died on dining room table, her husband, my grand da, whet to look for work during the depression, their house was paid for, and still, the Bankers threw them all out on the street...

        What makes that so different from today?

        What happened to our nation, to ethics and morality and the laws?

        I wish it were not so, but now it is again.

        Thanks.

        Ms. B.

    •  Non-sequitur much? Any other classic fallacies (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, Uberbah

      you'd like to parade before us?

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

      by enhydra lutris on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:51:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm no fan of Goldman... (28+ / 0-)

    ...but this (requesting that court be held in closed session during parts of a trial dealing with trade secrets) would seem to be fairly common practice.

    I'm not suggesting that's a good or bad thing (in this instance or any other), just that it's common.

    "They oughta rename this place Wackyville! Hoohoo, 'cause it's wacky!" - Chris Elliot

    by turnover on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:48:05 PM PDT

  •  I already voted absentee. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, Badabing

    Sometimes it's a distinction between bad and worse. Your voting hand hurts and a lot of us are getting heartburn - this epic battle between big money and regular people will go on for years. (who said class war!?) Our only chance is to keep voting even when it hurts. We vote, we blog, we DON'T talk about 2nd amendment remedies. Although sometimes in a stray daydream I could go 2nd amendment on Holder and Goldman Sachs...

    Here's to keeping the faith even when you feel like puking.

    http://www.storyofstuff.com/ When it gets harder to love, love harder! - Van Jones

    by bluesheep on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:49:25 PM PDT

    •  Ho hum (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sherijr

      Although sometimes in a stray daydream I could go 2nd amendment on Holder and Goldman Sachs...

      Nothing to see here. Just a progressive who feels really, really strongly about this issue.

      •  not nothing. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greeseyparrot, Badabing

        Anger isn't nothing. My point is that at this moment on the day before an election, the only constructive thing we can do is vote and GOTV. Perhaps I forgot for a moment that my comment would not only be seen by Badabing - it was directed at her. As a specific response to the last two sentences of her diary.

        Yes, I feel strongly about this issue, maybe as strongly as Badabing does, maybe not. I know a lot of people who don't feel good about voting Democratic because of the Wall St. influence in the Dem. party.

        I'm sorry you felt it necessary to highlight and showcase that part of my comment - the reference to my anger - instead of this:

        Your voting hand hurts and a lot of us are getting heartburn - this epic battle between big money and regular people will go on for years. (who said class war!?) Our only chance is to keep voting even when it hurts.

        http://www.storyofstuff.com/ When it gets harder to love, love harder! - Van Jones

        by bluesheep on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:26:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What does that have to do with this diary? (5+ / 0-)

      The diarist is merely continuing to chronicle ongoing aspects of the financial crisis.  This is not a diary exhorting you to vote one way or another.

      If you feel insulted by anything I've said, find out if it was intentional. I'll let you know if you ask.

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:02:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  there's already lots of that...how dare I do this (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattman, blueoasis, bigchin, aliasalias

        next to voting day...

        well you know what?

        how dare Eric Holder do the same..

        but of course, that shall not be addressed shall it?

        Let's keep covering up the Fraud to cover up the Fraud, because after all,

        it's all working out so well for all of us isn't it?

        Geeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz bus.....

      •  since you asked... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, Badabing, Ezekial 23 20

        I was merely responding to the concluding sentiment of the diary.

        wish it were not so, but it is.

        I voted the straight Democratic ticket last week, but my voting hand is getting mighty tired at this point.

        Ms. B.

        and agreeing that indeed, a lot of aspects of the ongoing saga make me really angry as well. And because we are not Sharron Angle or her followers, voting and blogging are the only reasonable responses that we have right now. Ms. B has availed herself of both of these responses to her anger. She knows what I meant. That's what I was hoping for.

        http://www.storyofstuff.com/ When it gets harder to love, love harder! - Van Jones

        by bluesheep on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:12:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  so (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2, sherijr

      you dream about shooting the Attorney General, eh? That makes you indistinguishable from a Klansman. Just as the diarist is wishing death on people, with her stupid little puerile video. But hey—they're only Wall Streeters, so that makes it okay, right? Sure. Go ahead, put yourself on the same continuum where operated BushCo, the one that culminates in the Khmer Rouge. The diary receiving recs from the usual suspects—our very own mirror/mirror teabaggers, who, as gchaucher2 points out above, don't know what the hell they're talking about; they're simply filled with inchoate bile and rage. Like Hunter S. Thompson's Watergate-hearings junkies: "closet Hell’s Angels whose sole interest in watching the hearings was the spectacle of seeing once-powerful men brought weeping to their knees."

      •  dude, relax. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Uberbah, Badabing

        feel free to read my other responses referring to this comment. I clearly should have gone to bed (it is late here in Germany) rather than commenting in this thread since I didn't express myself well.

        My point was that I also sometimes get very angry about the ongoing bank saga. People very dear to me have lost jobs, homes, pensions and hope because of the greed exemplified by the major Wall St. players. My feeling that Holder cares more about the Banks than about regular people contributes to that anger.

        My point was that although I am sometimes so angry about the suffering I see (the daydream comment was a reference to that justified anger and not a wingnut plan or fanatic "dream") the only rational response on the day before an election is to vote. And it will not solve this problem immediately, but it is still all we can do.

        Thanks for saying I'm indistinguishable from a klansman and Khmer Rouge. I don't happen to agree - and maybe if you were to read through my comment history you might revise your opinion. If not, whatever. I'm just another progressive Kossack who doesn't enjoy or employ ad hominem attacks.  

        http://www.storyofstuff.com/ When it gets harder to love, love harder! - Van Jones

        by bluesheep on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:52:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  dude, you got hit by the Dkos Breitbart... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Badabing, bluesheep

          ...it's nothing to worry about.  Making absurd jumps in reasoning to make accusations of racism - generic "2nd Amendment" to you wanting to be a Klansmen - is his day job.  That and the willful misrepresentations of what you've actually said & playing the associations if you've ever recced anyone that's ever said anything inflammatory.

          Just your standard-issue smear merchant.

          ThAnswr "If the administration can't fight for it's friends, don't expect us to fight their enemies."

          by Uberbah on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 12:38:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  asking to protect trade secrets (19+ / 0-)

    even ones we may dislike from a regulatory point of view, is typical in this kind of trial, its not new, unusual or evidence of Holder trying to perpetrate fraud.

    It is up to the regulators to outlaw the use of such programs.  Its not up to the government to out the program language and criteria of a trade secret in a criminal trial when the use of such programs is still legal.

    The complaints of refusal to act or dilatory action when confronting the real abuses in the system are valid.  But this isn't one of them.

    Due process means something in a court of law even when occasionally it helps someone immoral that we are inclined to despise.

  •  James Howard Kunstler's article today (23+ / 0-)

    Kind of says it for me:

    On Tuesday, when the Republican Party and its Tea Party chump-proxies re-conquer the sin-drenched bizarro universe of the US congress, they'll have to re-assume ownership of the stickiest web of frauds and swindles ever run in human history - and chances are the victory will blow up in their supernaturally suntanned, Botox-smoothed faces.
        The President and his Democrats may have inherited this clusterfuck from the feckless George Bush but they flubbed every chance to mitigate any part of it, ranging from their failure to restore the rule of law in banking (by prosecuting the executives of major banks who oversaw the systematic swindle), to mis-directing our dwindling resources toward ends (such as "shovel-ready" new super-highways) that won't promote a credible future for this society, to misleading the public in the fantasy that alt-energy will offset the disruptions of peak oil (and allow us to keep running suburbia, the US Military, and WalMart by other means).
         It's really too late for both parties. They're unreformable. They've squandered their legitimacy just as the US enters the fat heart of the long emergency. Neither of them have a plan, or even a single idea that isn't a dodge or a grift. Both parties tout a "recovery" that is just a cover story for accounting chicanery and statistical lies aimed at concealing the criminally-engineered national bankruptcy that they presided over in split shifts. Both parties are overwhelmingly made up of bagmen for the companies that looted America.

    To think otherwise is to be living in a fairyland.

    •  I love his columns...he is a great an amazing (9+ / 0-)

      artists and person...

      thanks so much..

      Neither of them have a plan, or even a single idea that isn't a dodge or a grift. Both parties tout a "recovery" that is just a cover story for accounting chicanery and statistical lies aimed at concealing the criminally-engineered national bankruptcy that they presided over in split shifts. Both parties are overwhelmingly made up of bagmen for the companies that looted America.

      Ms.B.

      I keep asking anyone to give me a list of New and Better Democrats...

      guess what, no one does.

      OMG.

    •  so the sprites are going to save us? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sherijr

      perhaps on their white horses?

    •  Ahhhh.....excellent. thanks for that little bit (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, aliasalias, Badabing, Crider

      of sanity.

      We all know that we've been swindled and had in an enormous and life impacting manner. Is it so wrong to want justice? Is it so wrong to want the crims to be put in prison....just like we would have been if we robbed a neighbors house?

      Christ, I lost 270,000.00 in equity in my condo I've owned for 14 years!!!  My parents have lost 100's of thousands of dollars in their retirement funds. My kids are trying to get their feet on the ground as adults in a horrible job market.

      Come on, I know MANY people on this site are in the same boat. We have a right to be pissed-off. Don't blame the messenger, blame the criminals and the enablers!!

      I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

      by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:04:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And it's still happening (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Badabing, Lucy2009

        Two weeks ago, my neighbors had to move away from their underwater house. They tried to sell it very cheap but just didn't have a buyer. Now the bank's repossessed ant it's vacant.

        •  That's awful. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Badabing, Crider

          I just found out that my condo is just below the water line. Uggghhh....  The only good thing about that is that when I file bankruptcy (as a result of Blue Cross not paying for hardly any of my medical bills for surgery...the bastards!) that I won't lose my condo. There is absolutely no point in forcing me to sell the bloody thing as it's not worth the note due on it anymore!

          I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

          by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:11:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Um, why did you truncate the quote right there? (16+ / 0-)

    Federal prosecutors have argued that the general public should not be allowed to observe the trial when details of Goldman’s trade secrets are discussed. They also asked that any documents related to Goldman’s trading strategies be sealed.  While it is common to protect proprietary corporate information during trials,
    -Noel Brinkerhoff, David Wallechinsky

    Well, what's the end of that sentence?  Because if it's common to protect proprietary corporate information during trials, this would seem to be just another instance of something that's common.  And the reason for it is clear: if proprietary information were routinely divulged during trials of people who are accused of stealing that information, corporations wouldn't report those incidents and we'd have either unrestricted theft or corporate private justice.

    The most impressive thing about man [...] is the fact that he has invented the concept of that which does not exist--Glenn Gould

    by Rich in PA on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:50:18 PM PDT

    •  Is this request for the whole trial (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, blueoasis, Badabing
      or only for the parts of it when these alleged trade secrets will come up?

      "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

      by kovie on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:55:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just as a side note, who regulates HFT. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis, Badabing

      It seems like a license to skim the markets and steal from the average investor but that is just my take.  How the hell is Holder using his resources to protect these assholes when they have done absolutely nothing about the mortgage fraud scam and mess.  That is my issue.  

      "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

      by lakehillsliberal on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:59:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  here's the rest (11+ / 0-)

      While it is common to protect proprietary corporate information during trials, the case of Aleynikov is unusual because it involves "secrets about a potentially lucrative trading system, rather than, say, ingredients in a soda formula," wrote the Wall Street Journal.

      That's significant because a "potentially lucrative trading system" has the potential to effect fraud, even if the system itself is not technically illegal under current regulations.

      But the real point is WTF is Holder doing carrying water for Goldman?  DOJ's job is to prosecute a criminal for theft.  This case isn't about what was stolen, it is about whether something was stolen.  

      It is very unclear to me why there should be any need to protect trade secrets in this context, but even if there is, let Goldman make its case to the court.  Holder shouldn't be doing it for them.  

      "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

      by jlynne on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:05:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  exactly you got my entire diary....thanks...nt. (4+ / 0-)
      •  Um (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jlynne, Badabing, sherijr

        It is very unclear to me why there should be any need to protect trade secrets in this context, but even if there is, let Goldman make its case to the court.  Holder shouldn't be doing it for them.  

        Given that this is a criminal proceeding, would Goldman have standing to request closed sessions? Doesn't the onus fall on the direct participants, i.e. the DOJ and the defense?

        "They oughta rename this place Wackyville! Hoohoo, 'cause it's wacky!" - Chris Elliot

        by turnover on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:11:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If its trade secrets are truly at risk (4+ / 0-)

          Goldman is the only party with standing to seek protection.  But, as I stated, I don't believe that the criminal context requires delving into the nature of the property that was stolen.  

          If some burglarizes your house and steals your TV, does the DA present testimony about the super-secret nature of your TVs special cable decoder technology?  No, the DA presents evidence that you had a TV which was stolen by the defendant.  Period.

          The rest is only relevant in a civil trial for damages.

          "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

          by jlynne on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:17:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That strikes me as a meaningless distinction (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk, sviscusi, jlynne, turnover

        Coke makes its money by having a product that people like, so its formula deserves protection.  GS makes its money with a trading algorithm that's obviously superior to its competitors' and is presumed legal until shown otherwise, so its algorithm deserves protection.  That's my initial impression, at least.

        The most impressive thing about man [...] is the fact that he has invented the concept of that which does not exist--Glenn Gould

        by Rich in PA on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:16:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Coke forumla (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aliasalias

          can't be used to effect fraud on third parties.  My drinking a Coke doesn't force you to pay a higher price for 7-up, or a laptop computer, for that matter.  That's why it's different.  

          That's also not the point.

          "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

          by jlynne on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:21:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Re (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jlynne, sherijr

            can't be used to effect fraud on third parties.

            You don't know that to be true.

            If I'm a day trader, I might make millions, taking those funds from people who are bad traders and make bad bets while I make good bets. This is perfectly legal (and ethical, for that matter), and it isn't "fraud on third parties". The GS HFT software may simply be a method of being "good at trading" in that sense. It's not a crime to be good at picking stocks.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:42:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  True, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Badabing

              but I'm not making the argument that the Goldman's system is actually used for fraud.  My point is solely that it could be, and that fact is what distinguishes it from the secret Coke formula.  

              In any event, that's not the point here.

              "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

              by jlynne on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:28:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  OH MY GOD!!!! (7+ / 0-)

        Do any of you have the slightest lick of knowledge as to how a criminal case works?  You cannot.  Because if you did you would know that the prosecutor -- particularly one for the DOJ -- has an independent duty to ensure that the trade secrets and confidential and proprietary information of a company charged with fraud or other criminal behavior does not become public, even if that information serves as the basis for the criminal charge.  

        But don't let how things actually fucking work stand in the way of a serious wanking.  

        "Carrying water for Goldman?"  Jesus Christ, what happened to the idea that those accused of crimes get treated the same under due process of law.  You may hate Goldman, but the prosecutor (who is not Holder, you idiot) exercising responsibility by applying the same rule to Goldman as he would in any case, that's "carrying water"?  

        Fuck your ignorance.  

        Shame on you.  Shame on you.  

        "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

        by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:24:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "what's good for goldman is good for america" (12+ / 0-)

    so STFU you whining pinkos

    fake doctor, fake hair...rand paul, take off that goddamn toupee!

    by memofromturner on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:50:58 PM PDT

  •  i love rage (0+ / 0-)
    the military and the financial system. those are the life and death issues. get on the right side of history.

     

  •  Badabing has gone from hero to zero in possibly (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Iberian, sviscusi, Lying eyes, drache

    record dailykos time. I've enjoyed watching it.

    •  Oh so happy to know you do not believe in honesty (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slatsg, corvo, blueoasis, daveusf, Lucy2009

      or transparency, or the rule of law...

      guess I just must be old fashioned, and out of the loop...

      so here's a clue...

      I'm a dyed in the wool Democrat and proud of it,

      so fuck you and the horse you road in on.

      You want to protect Wall St...do it on your own time, not mine.

      I will not abide that.

      •  They always scream loudest (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lying eyes

        when they're in crash and burn mode.

        But go ahead, it's at least amusing to watch.

      •  You're a hoot! lol. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Flauten

        "Armageddon was yesterday. Today we have a serious problem."

        by Lying eyes on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:15:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  THIS IS FOLLOWING THE RULE OF LAW YOU JACKASS. (6+ / 3-)

        You haven't the first idea of how the criminal justice system works.  Fuck the rules, let's just put the fuckers at Goldman against the wall, huh?  Screw the trial.  Anyone who seeks to ensure the law is followed regarding the rules concerning the disclosure of trade secret information at a trial is "carrying water" for the accused.  

        Fuck you.  You don't know the fuirst thing about the rule of law.  You want blood.

        You are no better than the idiot assholes on the other side.  

        "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

        by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:27:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's it, spanky. (8+ / 0-)

          Step away from the keyboard or the donuts are coming out to play.

          •  Oh, c'mon, Shiz. (15+ / 0-)

            Several commenters here, including two attorneys, have patiently attempted to demonstrate just how wrong the diarist is w/ regards to the law and the protection of intellectual property.

            The diarist has steadfastly ignored all corrections, or else attacked reasonable rebuttals.

            Lars' anger - especially as he is a member of the bar sworn to uphold those laws that are being so grievously misunderstood here - is understandable.  

            "They oughta rename this place Wackyville! Hoohoo, 'cause it's wacky!" - Chris Elliot

            by turnover on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:33:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are exactly right. (12+ / 0-)

              This diary is completely, totally, unabashedly, utterly, comprehensively wrong on its facts.  Right down to the foundation.  And I am absolutely pissed that a few people here will eat it up because it is in a Kos diary.

              I see shit like this and I go scarlet.  Because this kind of bullshit of letting ideology and preconceived notions standing in the way of fact is what the OTHER GUYS do.

              And when people start tearing down a person or institution on the basis of those facts, you are goddamned right I will tell that person to fuck off.  

              this is without question the most brazenly wrong and ideologically slanted diary I have ever seen on this site.  

              "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

              by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:37:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I completely disagree. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              slinkerwink, Badabing, Wolf10

              I do think the diarist is on edge, and I know that that's because she regularly gets dissed for all of her posts, no matter how relevant or true.

              The lawyers on Dkos tend to be more moderate liberals, and I mostly don't agree with them myself, but Lars' decidedly nasty tone is too much for me.

              The HR stands. If he keeps dishin' it out, I will keep HRing him.

              turnover, while I don't agree with your comments here, your tone has been just fine. Hopefully, Lars can come down to your chill level.

              •  Outrage is applicable when blatant lies and (10+ / 0-)

                stupidity exist in diary form.

                "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

                by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:45:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes. This diary is troll bullshit. (3+ / 4-)

                  And fuck Colorado is the Shiz for not calling out the diarist.

                  "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

                  by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:48:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Screw you, Lars. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Badabing

                    Now you're on ignore.

                    •  What the fuck is your problem? (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jiffypop, sherijr

                      You know the diarist is a proven bullshitter.

                      "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

                      by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:54:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  fuck you shrike..I love my party and screw you.. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        fisheye, aliasalias

                        what you think all the lawyers, and doctors and others, that have sold us down the pike, instead of paying attention to the most suffering Americans, get a free pass from me..

                        ain't gonna happen on my watch...so screw you and all your Dallas Cowboy Wall St. Cheerleaders...I'm so sick of you all...

                        acting like the 'law' made it all so perfect and legal, and millions of Americans are suffering at the hands of all those that got 'paid off'..

                        guess what shrike...?  No ones cares about all those laws that are protecting Goldman Sachs anymore...

                        and that's why we are getting the Tea Baggers crazies...

                        We had our chance to get back to real government, and we blew it....................You don't get that?

                        Well fuck you and fuck all the wonderful 'lawyers' who showed up on my diary tonight to once again protect, the Bankers and Wall St...

                        You see where that has led us?  Well just keep repeating over and over and over again...........

                        about how righteous it is to let Goldman Sachs protect that front running and manipulation, that is exactly what JP Morgan is doing, and when it all blows up in our faces, then there will be a time, when the most basic loving Democrats, such as myself will say?

                        Who cares about your lawyers, and your laws, when, none of it matters in the end, when those that have paid the most, are still being sold down the river by both parties, because they are all 'Whores' and ceased to care about us a long time ago?

                        Good luck to you babe, you are going to need it in the end...

                        We must, as human beings understand this one basic principal:  to survive, as a species, we must care for each other and honor, what the Greeks called:

                        survival for all, based on honor, humanity, and the basic caring for all..

                        we just threw that all under the bus...I don't give a shit about the laws, if they do not care about human beings, do you?

                        Ms. B.

                    •  And you recommended this pile of lies! (2+ / 1-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sparhawk, jiffypop
                      Hidden by:
                      dclawyer06

                      You recommended this diary?  You dare come in here and call me out for being outraged at the bald lies asserted in this horseshit diary and you recommended it?

                      Really?

                      You are no better than a right wing asshole.  presented with the facts, you still sign off on the diary as true.

                      Fucking unbelieveable.  You are a fucking hypocrite.  A fucking hypocrite.

                      "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

                      by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:02:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  and a well deserved donut for that remark (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    without the ants the rainforest dies

                    by aliasalias on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:10:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Re (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                shrike, sherijr

                The lawyers on Dkos tend to be more moderate liberals, and I mostly don't agree with them myself, but Lars' decidedly nasty tone is too much for me.

                Oooh no, someone spoke in a nasty tone! Whatever shall we do? Hide the good china and the antique teapots, everyone!

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:45:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not sure... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gchaucer2, sherijr

                ...why you would disagree with my comments here. I've merely pointed out common practice (more often than not, desirable practice), in cases where intellectual property is concerned. This is not opinion, it is statement of fact.

                I don't really care about this diarist or her/his feelings. It's just that this diary shows a profound ignorance of the law.

                But then, I've never been much on tar and feathers.

                "They oughta rename this place Wackyville! Hoohoo, 'cause it's wacky!" - Chris Elliot

                by turnover on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:46:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because some people view the behavior (0+ / 0-)

                  of Goldman Sachs as supra legal. Yes the diary does show a profound "ignorance of the law" in the sense that our rule of law has proven ignorant of Goldman Sachs malfeasance.

              •  truth is Shiz...I know who they are and what they (0+ / 0-)

                represent, and like I said the other day, the are like the Ngats on the windhield of my life..

                I know where my party came from.............I know who I am, and I where honestly is...I do not give a shit about all the so called:

                Lawyers: we do not know the difference between ethical, morals, and what sold our entire nation down the drain...

                I don't give a flying fucking rolling donut, about all their laws..

                the laws mean nothing to me at all, if the people of this nation keep suffering at the hands of both our parties, and I don't care who calls me on that..and I know that is what you are all about to Shiz...and that is why I've always loved you and always will.

                No matter what anyone says, on this site:

                Morality and love of our fellow human beings matter.....law and corruption together can never stand, no matter which party is in the White House...

                that is the platform of the Democratic Party, and I will never give it up.

                Thanks Shiz...I love you so much...for your brave heart, and for understanding this basic truism:

                Our party was always based upon lifting up the great melting pot of this nation, the downtrodden, the great colors and diversity of this nation, that supported President Obama..

                Where is he now?  I wonder.

                Ms. B.

            •  Understandable, (0+ / 0-)

              but still very arguably over the line.

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              “If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution.” ― Emma Goldman

              by Code Monkey on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:13:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Pejoratives do not elevate the discussion. nt (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            emal, Wolf10

            "L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." - Le Petit Prince

            by littlezen on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:35:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bullshit. An idiot needs to be called an idiot. (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sparhawk, Cedwyn, jiffypop, gchaucer2, sherijr

              This diary is as offensive to me as anything I have heard in the last two weeks.  It tears down my profession and those who practice it who are demonstrably trying to follow the rule of law regarding trade secret disclosure, and it paints everyone on the Government's side in this case as assholes.  Well fuck that.

              "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

              by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:40:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Taking it a wee bit personally, are we? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fisheye, Badabing

                Maybe the reason people don't generally like lawyers has something to do with your attitude.

                •  Yes, I take it personally. (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Cedwyn, arielle, turnover, gchaucer2, sherijr

                  When someone prints a diary saying that a prosector in whose shoes I stand every day is corrupt and abrogates the law because he actually does the right, ethically required, legally correct thing, yeah I take it personally.

                  "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

                  by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:54:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Mr. Prosecutor, I strongly suspect that your (1+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Badabing
                    Hidden by:
                    LarsThorwald

                    animus in this matter has much more to do with political orientation than it does with fidelity to the truth. If the latter were the case then your comments would be more focused on points of fact or to reasonable speculation when the facts are not so clear.

                    I will hereby disclose that I am much more aligned with Badabing's politics than I am with what I assume to be yours.

                    The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

                    by Wolf10 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:53:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  If you looked at Goldman Sachs as a governing (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Badabing

                    body in the context of it's autonomy from oversight and influence over the lives of everyone in this nation, and so many abroad, your ethical perspective might expand beyond the rule of law to the right of self governance. It holds tremendous sway over the fate of our entire economy and millions of Americans well being, but you seem to want to treat it on par with an individual person. That ethical question isn't one your self proclaimed virtue of local legal correction is ever going to make any narrower. And the question certainly isn't answered by our Supreme Court's latest activism. It's not so cut and dry to a lot of suffering people Lars.

              •  I wasn't referring to you... (0+ / 0-)

                I'm on your side.

                Another heavy sigh...

                "L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." - Le Petit Prince

                by littlezen on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:47:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Re previous comment... (0+ / 0-)

                not referring to you, Lars.

                "L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." - Le Petit Prince

                by littlezen on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:49:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  If people talk this shit in the real world (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Badabing

              they generally get some serious hurt put on them. May I recommend for your perusal my very own: Fighting Words at Daily Kos Cheers.

              The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

              by Wolf10 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 08:41:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  LOL!!! Oh boy, this place is a trip! :) (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            slinkerwink, Badabing

            Well, no one can accuse us of not being passionate enough about our cause.

            I'm no atty, and have no clue what is legal and not in regards to what Ms. B writes and folks are grumbling over. I will say this, no matter the law....bottom line is we've been screwed, we are pissed, and we want justice. We almost certainly won't get it, and we know this, and as a result are even more pissed!

            With that in mind, even if Ms. B is wrong on this point....her overall point is poignant, correct, and I applaud her loudly for continuing to post relevant, information filled, diaries on this site. She knows she'll get trampled, but she's brave and carries on.

            THANK YOU BADABING!!!    :)   Some of us love you!

            I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

            by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:11:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Justice at what cost, Lucy? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gchaucer2, Lucy2009

              "They oughta rename this place Wackyville! Hoohoo, 'cause it's wacky!" - Chris Elliot

              by turnover on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:29:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If there is anything illegal that went on with (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Badabing

                Wall Street that precipitated this crash, I want it found out, investigated, taken to court, and the perps to be thrown in prison.

                I'm not interested in fake justice, or throwing people in jail for things that weren't actually illegal. However, I find it very difficult to believe that no laws were broken. SOME law or laws had to be broken. Wall Street destroyed the economy of the biggest, richest country on earth. SOMETHING illegal had to have happened. I just don't believe it's not so. Now, it may not be what Badabing is talking about. I don't know about that.

                I excuse her, if she is incorrect (which I don't personally know if she is), because she communicates regularly on a topic that is crucial to the future of every citizen in this country....and she does it in the face of massive, and frequently nasty critique by all of us.

                I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

                by Lucy2009 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:38:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I'm 50 & broke - you live in delusion-ville (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Badabing

          I grew up on welfare a teenager in the 70's

          (remember patty hearst & john dean!! ha ha ! they really paid !)

          and I've been on student loan financial aid and on unemployment and I've been completely shit on by big employers cuz I wasn't toadying up the right boss ...

          "the rule of law" is a fucking joke.

          get outta your affluent bubble -

          for those of us who can NOT afford Skadden &Arps,

          there is NO rule of law.

          rmm.

          Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

          by seabos84 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:01:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gchaucer2

            "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

            by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:10:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That is not bullshit. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              seabos84, Badabing

              I started to site examples but then realized your defense of the equity of the American legal industry is so conspicuously brief and halfhearted it isn't necessary. But it is a salient point that seems to be flying far above your emphasis on the 'rule' of law in this thread.
              You know very well its often not so much a rule as a suggestion if one can afford it.

              •  Now its coming down to this fish... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                seabos84, fisheye

                Indiana Braces For Violence, Adds Armed Guards To Unemployment Offices In Anticipation Of 99-Week Jobless Benefits Expiration

                As America reaches its two year anniversary from the immediate economic collapse that followed the Lehman bankruptcy, punctuated mostly by vast and broad layoffs across every industry, arguably the most relevant topic that few are so far discussing is the expiration of full 99 weeks of maximum claims (EUC + Extended Benefits) for cohort after cohort of laid off Americans. And since these people are certainly not finding jobs in the broader labor market (which continues to contract and thus make the unemployment percentage far better optically than the 10%+ where U-3 should be), their next natural response will be to get very angry at the teat that has suckled them for so long, and is now forcing them to go cold turkey. Which is why we read with little surprise that now in Indiana, and soon everywhere else, unemployment offices are starting to add armed security guards. Of course, the official explanation if a benign one: "Armed security guards will be on hand at 36 unemployment offices around Indiana in what state officials said is a step to improve safety and make branch security more consistent." Why the need to improve safety all of a sudden? The 99 weeks cliff of course. Which means that on your next trek to the unemployment office to collect that last stimulus paycheck from Uncle Sam, you will most likely see the masked fellow below.

                More from Indiana news on what is a harbinger of things to come.

                   No specific incidents prompted the action, Department of Workforce Development spokesman Marc Lotter told 6News' Norman Cox.

                   Lotter said the agency is merely being cautious with the approach of an early-December deadline when thousands of Indiana residents could see their unemployment benefits end after exhausting the maximum 99 weeks provided through multiple federal extension periods.

                   "Given the upcoming expiration of the federal extensions and the increased stress on some of the unemployed, we thought added security would provide an extra level of protection for our employees and clients," he said.

                   Some offices have had guards for nearly two years but those guards were hired on a regional basis, meaning some offices had armed guards while others did not, Lotter said.

                   The cost of the armed guards varies dramatically around the state. Lotter said the agency is trying to be more consistent and that it plans to employ armed guards in all 36 offices where unemployment insurance benefits are handled.

                   The overall cost for the security is $1 million, paid for with federal funds designated for administration of the unemployment system, Lotter said.

                   Other agency offices that provide job training or are not full-service branches will continue to have unarmed guards.

                   Lotter said state employees in the affected offices have also recently gone through stress-management training in which they learn how to respond appropriately to angry clients.

                   "This is a stressful time for people in the economy," he said. "That's why we're not only taking this step (of hiring guards), but we're also increasing our training for our staff to be able to help people as they're trying to cope with these changes."

                Next up: armed guards at your local social security office, grocery store, and soon, everywhere else.

                http://www.zerohedge.com/...

                I actually remembered when this happened....last in our nation...

                so guess what?  I'm not surprised that violence that is coming...I do not condone it, but I understand it.

                Ms. B.

    •  When was the hero time? n/t (6+ / 0-)

      "Armageddon was yesterday. Today we have a serious problem."

      by Lying eyes on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:15:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  NOT a big Holder fam, but this seems to not... (6+ / 0-)

    ....be really out of line (protecting trade secrets in open court).

    "...if my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine...." {-8.13;-5.59}

    by lams712 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:57:07 PM PDT

  •  ** snort ** (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, blueoasis, Badabing

    but... who can blame them?

  •  I would agree that it's not the AG's place (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, jlynne, Badabing, mos1133

    to push for a closed court to protect Goldman Sachs.  If Goldman Sachs feels the need for such protection, you would expect their own lawyers to press for it.  Makes you kind of wonder - Does the AG consider himself one of their lawyers?

    But I think it would also have been a stronger diary without the 'beloved leader' phrase midway through.  I think that merely serves to antagonize a section of the likely readership and doesn't add anything to what you're actually saying.

    If you feel insulted by anything I've said, find out if it was intentional. I'll let you know if you ask.

    by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 03:59:33 PM PDT

    •  Like I said Ezekial, who in the hell he working (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, Lucy2009

      for?

      And for this to come out before election day?

      give me a fucking break...

      thanks.

      Ms. B.

    •  IT IS THE PROSECUTOR'S PLACE! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sparhawk, sherijr

      Idiot!  Idiot!  Idiot!

      STOP TALKING ABOUT SHIT YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

      "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

      by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:28:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A couple words for you. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Badabing, Lucy2009

        Fuck off, asshole.

        As noted upthread by someone else, Holder is not actually the prosecutor, although, as also noted above, it turns out he wasn't the one who actually made the request either.

        You are always such a complete and utter ass.

        If you feel insulted by anything I've said, find out if it was intentional. I'll let you know if you ask.

        by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:31:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fuck you right back. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sparhawk, sherijr, amk for obama

          This entire diary is a total and complete load of shit, and yet you and others like you jump right on up, eating it up like it's the truth, without getting a single fact straight.  

          Fuck you.  

          "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

          by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:34:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You don't have to 'fuck me right back' (0+ / 0-)

            You started the 'fucking' here, not me.

            I operated on the 'good faith' principle that diarists are providing me facts until proven otherwise.  I made some conjectures based upon what was written, and altered my stance as newer facts presented themselves, and corrected previous mistaken impressions.

            Then, as usual, you come barrelling along to curse and call people idiots and be your usual obnoxious self, and conflate ignorance with idiocy.  I was temporarily ignorant of a couple of facts, until another poster who was not an obnoxious asshole corrected me on them.  You, on the other hand, merely wanted to be a completely arrogant ass, as always.

            No wonder Dems lose so many elections they don't have to.  Too many of them treat people every bit as badly as Republicans do.

            If you feel insulted by anything I've said, find out if it was intentional. I'll let you know if you ask.

            by Ezekial 23 20 on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 07:23:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  the diarist is ignorant on legal (6+ / 0-)

          and financial matters.

          This diary should be deleted now.

          "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

          by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:39:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That may be (0+ / 0-)

            true, but it does not excuse LarsThorwald's sheer obnoxiousness and conflation of ignorance and idiocy.  He acts like a Tea Partier, and certainly doesn't give people a good impression of Democrats, if he's what they might judge by.

            If you feel insulted by anything I've said, find out if it was intentional. I'll let you know if you ask.

            by Ezekial 23 20 on Wed Nov 03, 2010 at 07:24:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Pipe Down (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Badabing

        I don't even care what you're arguing about. Your obnoxious and worthless comment only makes me hate you.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:36:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Shush...quiet... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing

    ...nothing negative about Obama the day before the election.  You probably want to delete this diary and re-post it later this week.

    •  Why am I not surprised that you defend (0+ / 0-)

      this dishonest diary? In your world the liar is the victim.

      I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

      by Mike S on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 01:17:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What an amazing GOTV diary (6+ / 0-)

    I see you truly have your sights on what is important tomorrow...

    "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

    by Lawrence on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:01:23 PM PDT

  •  I give up ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing

    (not really)

    When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt

    by IndyRobin on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:03:36 PM PDT

  •  this is something that needs (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing, Lucy2009

    to be brought up again after the election...just like the msm won't pick it up 'cause we're too close to an election...dkos won't pick it up either...or it will get too much "not now" to get across it's points...It's too bad this administration can't stand up to wall street...and it's not something that really surprises me though given how much money is in our politics...anyhow...good diary...and I hope it gets the attention it deserves...after we celebrate a big day tomorrow.

  •  Clearly, you don't really understand... (15+ / 0-)

    ... trade secrets and intellectual property (from a legal standpoint). So your outrage, while impressive, is misplaced.

    Magic Eight Ball says: try again.

    "We have so much time and so little to do. Strike that, reverse it." -- Willy Wonka

    by Huginn and Muninn on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:08:13 PM PDT

  •  I don't think you understand the case (19+ / 0-)

    This is the prosecution of a Programmer who allegedly stole HFT trade secrets from Goldman Sach's servers and brought them with him to a competing firm that poached him. Putting the trade secrets in the public record defeats the entire purpose of the case. It has nothing to do with any of the other issues you brought up.

    •  Trade Secrets (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Badabing

      It's not necessary to close the entire trial. Evidence and testimony, whole days of hearings, can be closed and redacted. Trade secrets are routinely handled in otherwise open court. This draconian secrecy is what you see when there's a coverup.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:37:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thoughtless, reactionary demagoguery here. (23+ / 0-)

    Trade secrets are routinely protected in situations like this.  This is a case in which G-S is the victim of theft.  We're now going to make victims - ones we don't like for political reasons? - expose secrets they don't want made public as a condition of having their victimizers prosecuted?  I know, let's apply that standard to rape trials!

    I don't think you thought this through at all, just "checked your gut" and decided you don't like Goldman-Sachs.  Well, me, neither, but that isn't how we, or the government, or the judiciary, are supposed to go about answering legal questions.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:10:43 PM PDT

    •  Delusional at best. nt. (0+ / 0-)
      •  I would so hide rate you for ignorance if I could (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sviscusi, sherijr

        "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

        by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:29:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But You Can't (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          emal, greeseyparrot, Badabing, m4gill4

          There's a reason for that. "Ignorance" isn't a hide-worthy reason.

          You're a HR abuser, however impotent.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:37:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  proven bullshit is HRable (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            arielle

            per hunter

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            There are a number of things which very clearly constitute "trolling", and which should be troll rated (and therefore deleted from the conversation) quite legitimately.

               * "Democrates suk" or any of the other derivations of true trolling by those of enfeebled brain. Don't argue, just zap them. More on this in a bit.

               * Advertisements or other thread spamming. Zero them out. Especially if a user is posting the same comment to multiple threads. The cause may be just; the behavior isn't.

               * Off-topic posts. There's entire threads devoted to being off-topic: the Open Threads. In other conversations, it is rude to interrupt a diary or story conversation with your own unrelated "threadjacking".

               * Proven-false information, conspiracy theories, or debunked talking points.

             

            Die with your boots on. Gonna try? Well stick around. Gonna cry? Just move along. The truth of all predictions is always in your hands. - Iron Maiden

            by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 09:16:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Prove It (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Badabing

              If that post carping about "ignorance" had specified something specific that was proven false, that would be an entirely different situation.

              When you contradict someone's point, you must back up your contradiction with facts or logic. When you HR someone, you've got to back it up. When you HR someone for proven false information, it should be trivial to back it up. Just saying "that's ignorant" and HR'ing is HR abuse.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 09:06:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  after all your ranting and cussing in this thread (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          emal, greeseyparrot, Lucy2009

          you'll be lucky if you can hide rate anything

          •  Cussing? Bad. Lying? Not so much. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            arielle

            This place has lost it's mother fucking mind.

            I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

            by Mike S on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 01:16:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  for all the lawyers in this thread (0+ / 0-)

              they don't seem very good at keeping a cool head when making an argument.

              Incorrect analysis:  expected in this forum
              Impolite discussion: unseemly and unpleasant

              All is well!

              •  Too funny. (0+ / 0-)

                The lying diarist has attacke anyone and everyone who pointed out she was wrong. She even admits that they are right about the law but accuses them of not caring about the homeless.

                But in your world lying is okay but cursing is bad.

                It would be funny if it weren't so fucking pathetic.

                I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

                by Mike S on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 10:59:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Standard Operating Procedure (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, VClib, amk for obama

      Thoughtless, reactionary demagoguery here.

      The diarist can't read a balance sheet either yet interjects on the "solvency" of financial institutions.

      "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

      by shrike on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:20:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  isn't the point here that it's Holder (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zett, Badabing, bluesheep

      trying to get the trade secrets protected.

      Why doesn't he let GS's lawyers do the work, as someone farther up pointed out ?

      maybe someone can enlighten us as to how this works ?

      furthermore it seems to me, and not an inconsequential number of other people, that Holder is VERY worried about the rights of corporations.  people, not so much.

      Generally, he does not seem the very objective in his enforcement or in who he investigates.   he's very worried about dope being legal in CA, but not so worried about the massive amount of fraud taking place in the financial system.

      case in point, he's spending federal resources going after this trader which allegedly stole the code, and yet no one at GS seems to be going on trial anytime soon.

      big badda boom : GRB 080913

      by squarewheel on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:26:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Badabing

        furthermore it seems to me, and not an inconsequential number of other people, that Holder is VERY worried about the rights of corporations.  people, not so much.

        That is exactly my beef with him.

        http://www.storyofstuff.com/ When it gets harder to love, love harder! - Van Jones

        by bluesheep on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:31:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I will help enlighten you (9+ / 0-)

        The prosecutor here (who is about 20 steps removed from Holder) has an obligation to ensure that trade secrets are not disclosed.  The law requires that trade secrets not be disclosed.  Why should GS's lawyers have to be the ones to step up and be the only ones to recognize the law?  Or maybe you would rather the prosecutor risk ethics charges and a possible mistrial.

        I swear to God the left is sometimes as blinded by ideological idocy as the Right.  

        "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

        by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:31:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  thanks (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Badabing

          if I was so blinded by ideological idiocy I wouldn't have asked for an explanation.

          I'm still not clear on how the prosecutor knows what constitutes trade secrets.  seems like a great way for a company to claim trade secrets on everything and get away with it.

          big badda boom : GRB 080913

          by squarewheel on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 09:31:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  And in other news... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, Badabing

    DADT will be enforced indefinitely...ahhhh the smell of Democratic victories...

    I did campaign on the public option, and I'm proud of it! Corporat Democrats will not get my vote, hence I will not vote.

    by Jazzenterprises on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:11:07 PM PDT

  •  "...is to protect the American public..." (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, Badabing, mos1133, Lucy2009

    Yeah,.... right.

    Money talks, BS walks.  Get used to it as this will only get worse if they do not clean up our election process, and get rid of the money changers from the temple.

    "I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean I love the country but I can't stand the scene." - Leonard Cohen (Democracy)

    by LamontCranston on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:13:59 PM PDT

    •  coudn't agree more...people get bent (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Badabing

      out of shape over Obama being the President and not stopping this...Obama didn't spend billions of his own dollars to get elected...he used millions of ours and billions of theirs...it sucks...and we can fight it...but this kind of shit is not how I judge a President...start a bullshit war...that's a different crime.

  •  Shame on diarist, reccers. (21+ / 0-)

    Does anyone think it fair to the accused to have its trade secrets divulged simply because it demanded a trial?

    No, of course not.

    This diary tells me how unfair people are willing to be, to strike at Goldman, to strike at Holder, and at Obama.

    Way to go low on election day.

    Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

    by Inland on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:21:07 PM PDT

    •  AMEN (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Iberian, jiffypop, sherijr, amk for obama

      "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

      by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:31:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Goldman is NOT the accused. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jiffypop

      "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

      by jlynne on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:43:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So it's clearly the right thing to do. (3+ / 0-)

        Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

        by Inland on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:49:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  why? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zett, Badabing

          the issue is whether Aleynikov stole something - seems like that issue can be resolved regardless of whether that "something" was in fact a trade secret.  Why is it really necessary to prove that what he stole was a trade secret?  And even if that is necessary, why is the prosecutor, rather than Goldman, asking for secrecy?

          "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

          by jlynne on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:37:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No such thing as stealing not-trade secret. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sparhawk, Cedwyn, Badabing, ThisIsMyTime

            By legal definition, thoughts and ideas and information are not property unless they fit one of the categories of protection, i.e., copyright, patent, or trade secret.

            Whether there is a trade secret is the essential question of whether the stole something.

            And why does the prosecutor ask for it?  Because it's not his job to fuck over the victims and witnesses just because someone on daily kos thinks they deserve it, that's why.

            Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

            by Inland on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:09:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Aleynikov is accused of stealing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Badabing

              computer code from his then-employer, Goldman.  That is theft regardless of whether the code is a trade secret or not.  

              However, unlike all the screamers, I did some research.  Alenynikov is charged with a violation of a federal statute that specifically criminalizes  theft of "trade secrets."

              Under that statute (18 USC 1832), trade secrets are defined as:

              (3) the term "trade secret" means all forms and types of financial, business, scientific, technical, economic, or engineering information, including patterns, plans, compilations, program devices, formulas, designs, prototypes, methods, techniques, processes, procedures, programs, or codes, whether tangible or intangible, and whether or how stored, compiled, or memorialized physically, electronically, graphically, photographically, or in writing if—

              (A) the owner thereof has taken reasonable measures to keep such information secret; and

              (B) the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, the public; and . . .

              Assuming that Aleynikov even denies that what was stolen is a trade secret, I still don't see why it is necessary to reveal any confidential information in order to prove that it was.  They can show that Aleynikov signed a confidentiality agreement that covered the secrecy of code.  The only possible dispute would be whether the computer code had independent economic value, and only the potential for such value needs to be proven under the statute.  It is not necessary to talk about the specifics of how the program actually works to explain to the court and jury that it has the potential to work - that it has economic value.  All the prosecutor has to do is show that the computer code could give Goldman an advantage of people who don't have it.  So, I still don't see that the prosecutor had any need to ask to close the courtroom.

              Now, in a civil trial for damages, it would be different.  Goldman would need to prove that the theft caused an actual injury and put a financial dollar amount on that injury.  The only way to do that is to delve into how the program works to explain how Goldman lost money - either because they were unable to use the program, or because someone else used it and profited to the tune of $X at Goldman's expense.  

              But that is not this case.  In this case, the only thing that really makes sense is that the prosecutor asked that the record be sealed because in order to prove that the computer code has the potential for independent economic value, Goldman has to actually admit, or come very, very close to admitting, that the code only has value if it is used to effect fraud.  

              And that presents a problem, don't you agree?

              "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

              by jlynne on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 09:10:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Your fundamental error: (0+ / 0-)

                Being a trade secret is an element of the crime:

                (B) the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, the public; and

                That's the definition of a trade secret: something that has value because it isn't generally known.  Proving that it isn't generally known requires discussing the info; that would reveal the secret.

                A confidentiality agreement itself does not prove what is or is not known generally.

                Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

                by Inland on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 04:01:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yes, that was my point (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Badabing

                  and proving that the secret code has potential independent economic value does not require revealing the nature of the code or how it works, so why the need to close the courtroom?

                  "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something." President Obama in Prague on April 5

                  by jlynne on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 09:48:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  There's an argument to protect state secrets too, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Badabing

              like torture. Goldman Sachs is not just another individual or benign company enjoying the equity of the rule of law. Not that there is equity in our legal system.It just isn't. They've been operating with out proper governance for years.
              You had to have some hesitation in portraying Goldman Sachs as a victim. C'mon that just can't be comfortable.

              •  Are you reading what you're typing: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fisheye, ThisIsMyTime

                Goldman Sachs is not just another individual or benign company enjoying the equity of the rule of law.

                I don't remember voting on excluding Goldman from the rule of law, and just declaring it an outlaw, so that Holder could use a criminal case as the means to fuck it over.

                I don't think I would vote aye on simply excluding Goldman, or anyone else, from basic legal protections.

                Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

                by Inland on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 04:05:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not denying the legal rules (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Badabing

                  I'm denying that Goldman operates under a fair legal umbrella in the first place. They already are excluded(only in their own favor)is what I meant. I'm not sure what the solution to that is, but applying only one sided fair practice to them doesn't seem very meaningful. I wouldn't vote for inequitable legal protection either. But that is what we have. I won't glorify that.

                  •  There is no one sided practice. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fisheye, ThisIsMyTime

                    As noted widely above, this is standard practice for trade secrets. If you had a trade secret, you'd get the same treatment no matter who thought you weren't benign.

                    Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

                    by Inland on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 06:01:37 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Dude step away from the magnifying glass (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Badabing

                      I'm not arguing the legal particular. I understand the error of legal analysis in the diary. I get it. I am simply stating the anger and perspective of failed "justice" within such legal boundaries is understandable considering the broader circumstances of victimization by this bank. The extreme emotional reaction in explaining the legal particulars, however accurate, in this thread is unsympathetic.

                      •  The particulars are important. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        fisheye, ThisIsMyTime

                        It's where this diary went wrong:  it saw the ability to hurt Goldman, and declared that Holder should take it, simply because Goldman should be punished somehow, for something.  I suppose if the calls for "rule of law" weren't made concurrently, it wouldn't be as wrong as it was.

                        Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

                        by Inland on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 08:43:42 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  The sad part is (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Inland, Badabing, Susan G in MN

      they don't care.

  •  What's the big deal? (5+ / 0-)

    This isn't a cover up, it helping a company protect a trade secret.  The fact that GS does this should be the trade secret.  Now, everyone should adjust their trading practice.

    However, people should have figured this out already.  I buy on ebay, and never list the highest I'm willing to go, I wait until the very last minute to enter that, so that I don't end up in an ego bidding war where someone jacks up the price just to win.  The strategy applies to high level bidding as well, people should have figured this out.

    While I don't have any affection for GS, I'm glad that the courts have a way to help companies protect trade secrets.

    "Whenever you have truth it must be given with love, or the message and the messenger will be rejected" ~Mahatma Gandhi

    by Kiku on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:21:16 PM PDT

  •  You know that Goldman is the Plantiff right? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    otto, shrike, VClib, Kiku, Huginn and Muninn

    Reasoning by proxy, if Microsoft had some of their software stolen (that is where the trade secrets live). They would quite rightly request that the court and transcripts be seals and there is no doubt that their request would be granted. It is not the concern of the court or the Attorney General to address issues that are not being tried in the case at hand. If you want to start a campaign to bring Goldman to account for flash trading or any other misdeeds this is not that case.

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire

    by leftover on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:23:03 PM PDT

  •  Hmm, this is a toughie. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett, fisheye, Badabing, ThAnswr, daveusf, Lucy2009

    On the one hand, I suppose Goldman Sachs is entitled to its "trade secrets" until found guilty.

    On the other hand, it's a sorry society in which Goldman Sachs is allowed to persist in having a corporate charter.

    Wonder what's on the tube?

  •  Flash trading should be illegal (9+ / 0-)

    However, as of today it is legal. And therefore the computer code in question is worth billions. And should therefore be treated as a valuable trade secret like any other.

    It is not Holder's job to put into the law what Congress could and should have.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:30:07 PM PDT

    •  Flashtrading should have been illegal from the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lucy2009

      get go, and that is why this case is so important..

      that is really the point of this diary, why in the hell did this so called 'secret formula' get stolen?

      because everyone on Wall St. knew it was being used, but no one stopped, it just like they didn't stop Bernie Madoff for 8 years?

      I mean, what part of that don't we get?

      We are just such fools, and know what?

      I'm seeing people on this blog, stand up in support of secrecy and the laws that brought us all down..

      that is beyond the pale to me, it really is...

      Oh yes, above all, let's pretend that none of this wasn't pointed out for the past several years..

      where did that get us?

      good luck with your laws..

      Good luck with President Sarah Palin and Mitt Romney...good luck with the Cat Food Commission, good luck, with all that shit...and more..

    •  blue a. you nailed it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Iberian

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:51:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This makes me not care who wins (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing, Lucy2009

    IN fact- maybe the teabaggers will throw a fuss about this and actually have the balls to do something about it.

    Fuck that shit.

    The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. --George Orwell

    by jgkojak on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:30:18 PM PDT

    •  You let shit like this lie of a diary influence (10+ / 0-)

      your decision?  THE DIARY IS TOTALLY FULL OF SHIT.

      And shame on you for being so fucking apathetic.  

      "This is harder than it looks." -- Van Jones

      by LarsThorwald on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:32:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Amazing Lars? You think I'm speaking against my (0+ / 0-)

        own party:  You are a fucking idiot..

        you don't get why we have the tea party in front of us do you?

           

        U.S. Financial Markets: The Well Has Been Poisoned (Anger of the Honest Part II)    (October 23, 2010)

           When financial markets have become riddled with fraud, embezzlement and corruption that goes unpunished, then institutional players will avoid that market as crooked: the well has been poisoned.

           The full consequences of what I termed The Rot Within: Our Culture of Financial Fraud and the Anger of the Honest (October 15, 2010) are now unfolding: the well has been poisoned. One of my most astute correspondents made a critical observation that I've seen nowhere else: once a market has been poisoned by fraud which goes unpunished, then institutional players will avoid that market as untrustworthy.

           Without institutional trust and participation, the market then withers on the vine-- exactly what has happened to the U.S. mortgage securities market. The market for mortgage-backed securities has vanished, except for one player: the Federal Reserve, which has bought a staggering $1.2 trillion in the past 18 months to create the facsimile of an active market.

           The well has been poisoned. The only mortgages being traded are those 100% guaranteed by the U.S. government: in effect, the risks intrinsic to a corrupted market have been shifted to the taxpayers, while the criminals who profited from the fraud and embezzlement got away scot-free.

                 This happened in a few industries prior to the mid-1990s, at which point basic law enforcement was neutered and there were no more fraud prosecutions that mattered. I have always thought that the lack of fraud prosecutions for Internet/telecom fraud was a significant reason why the NASDAQ has never made a significant recovery to anything close to its peak reached in March 2000.

              Watch carefully on the foreclosure frauds. If real jail terms are handed out to some (doesn't need to be all) big players, that will be a green flag. The public at large won't see it or believe it, but the professionals will. I am not predicting that this will happen. In fact, I'm quite skeptical that it will. However, any intelligent skeptic considers all the possibilities.

           This is why no institutional investor will touch private-market mortgage securities with a 10-foot pole. The U.S. government and the Fed had a stark choice: either impose the rule of law and indict and convict hundreds, if not thousands, of people who perpetrated and profited from the systemic fraud and embezzlement at the heart of the mortgage and mortgage-securities industries, or socialize the corrupted, poisoned markets and use taxpayer funds to prop up the wizened shell of a stripmined market and reward the criminals with freedom.

           They chose to reward the criminals and prop up a simulacrum market with only one buyer: the Federal Reserve. You can go to the the Fed's balance sheet and see the $1.2 trillion in mortgage-backed securities it owns. There is no effort to hide the brazen socialization of what once was a private-sector, free market.

           When the well has been poisoned, the only players dumb enough to drink from it are the taxpayers, who have no choice as the politico toadies of the investment banking/financial Power Elites have funneled some $13 trillion in cash, backstops and guarantees into their "partners" who fund their campaigns and write the laws via their lobbyist proxies.

           The Fed isn't dumb--it's desperate. The markets, systemically riddled with collusion, cronyism, fraud, embezzlement, misrepresentation and outright lies, have no participants except Central State proxies and "marks" who sadly still believe the ceaseless propaganda about "rising corporate profits," "recovery" and "a free-market economy." Hahahahaha--free market! Please don't make me laugh that hard, I might hurt myself.

           If you are so confident in the "transparency" and trustworthiness of the mortgage securities market, please tell us how many private institutional investors are buying mortgage securities which aren't 100% guaranteed by the Central State.

           The same distrust has poisoned U.S. stock markets. The high keening cry to "get into the market while stocks are cheap" which has been spewed daily for months on end on network TV and other channels of raw propaganda has been ignored by the "retail investor," a.k.a. the top 20% of Americans who have financial wealth to preserve and invest.

           For 24 straight weeks, retail investors have been pulling tens of billions of dollars out of U.S. mutual funds and plowing hundreds of billions into low-yield Treasury bonds.

           Why? Because they sense the stock market is hopelessly, deeply corrupt and by comparison Treasuries are trustworthy. You won't make a lot of yield in Treasuries, thanks to the Fed's zero-interest rate policy (ZIRP) which is designed to drive money into risky assets, but then you won't lose 40% like you did in 2008-09 or 2000-2002 in the stock market.

           We can also see how insiders are responding to the knowledge that the well has been poisoned: they're selling 500 shares for every share they buy. This unprecedented cascade of insider selling has been noted elsewhere many times, as has the declining expectations for the "recovery" of U.S. CEOs.

           Those who know the most are selling their shares as fast as they legally can, and are publicly expressing their lack of faith in the tricked-up "recovery."

           The U.S. financial markets have been poisoned, with long-term negative consequences. Only crooks, fraudsters and "marks" (those who still believe the propaganda about the "recovery" and "stocks are cheap" poison) will be left in a stock market propped up by the same socialization of risk which keeps the flimsy facade of a mortgage market from crumbling. High-frequency trading machines create the illusion of a market, and State intervention via proxies and other corrupt games provides the liquidity needed to fund the facsimile of a "rising market" and a "recovery" in the U.S. economy. But the public isn't buying the fraud any longer; they finally "get it": The well has been poisoned and only a fool drinks from a poisoned well.

           This is why we can safely anticipate a hollowed-out stock market which trades at a steep discount to its present propped-up levels in the years ahead--until the crooked players are indicted and the financial markets thoroughly cleaned. That will take political will which is completely lacking in the Demopublican-Republicrat status quo. For more on this, please read:

           The Loss of Trust and the Great Unraveling To Come
           (October 18, 2010)

           The Normalization of Sociopathology in America
           (October 16, 2010)

           The Rot Within: Our Culture of Financial Fraud and the Anger of the Honest
           (October 15, 2010)

           The Coming Collapse of the Real Estate Market
           (October 14, 2010)

           Runaway Feedback Loops, Wealth Concentration and Gaming-The-System
           (October 13, 2010)

           Bernanke's QE2 Heading for the Shoals
           (October 11, 2010)

           Look Out Below (I've got a bad feeling about this)
           (October 8, 2010)

        http://www.oftwominds.com/...

        Thanks so much Mr. Smith for allowing me to publish another one of your excellent essays.

        On Zero Hedge yesterday, Mr. Black again is warning us over and over and over again, about the full repercussions we will face, if we do not deal with this FRAUD, this cancer, this crisis that is eating us alive.

        Good luck with you meme...I'm not buying into that anymore...

        Ms. B.

    •  Fuck your shit (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sybil Liberty

      It seems those intended to hand a Republican victory are working particularly hard today.

    •  CONGRATULATIONS! You have reacted just as this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ThisIsMyTime

      lying diarist hoped you would. FOX News couldn't have done a better job of propaganda.

      I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

      by Mike S on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 01:10:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  wikileaks PAGING wikileaks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aliasalias, Badabing

    The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. --George Orwell

    by jgkojak on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:33:19 PM PDT

  •  Way to Goldman Out the Vote Night Before Election (0+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:35:28 PM PDT

  •  Gotta read this tomorrow. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing

    Just caught the headline as I was ready to log off...

    The only constant is change - Heraclitus

    by Gustogirl on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:42:23 PM PDT

  •  What's funny is we've been told countless (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    triv33, NearlyNormal, Badabing

    times the banks run the place, but many still don't believe it or truly grasp what that means.  It's as simple now as it was when Socrates first uttered, "Money talks, bullshit walks".

    The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

    by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:44:24 PM PDT

    •  Everyone is so afraid Big Al....I am not..and I (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, BigAlinWashSt

      know you are not...

      but I keep giving out the truth, so here I am being trashed as usual..

      guess, what I don't give a shit..

      When the AG, on the eve of election day proposes to protect Goldman Sachs,.......................

      and then what?

      Look at how many member of this site protect them?

      Shit.......

      Time for me to move on...

      It's not about the 'legal' aspects...anymore...and this is what I fear about our own party...

      it is about morality, and equality, and our jobs, and such, but whenever I mention that....I'm trashed....

      ok...I get that..got that...where does that lead us?

      Again: I will ask the same questions:

      Give me a new list of New and Better Democrats to vote for beside Alan Grayson who is going down in falmes?

      Give me a new list list of New and Better Democrats who are Demanding that to rebuild our manufacturing base, which has been sold off, and demanding that our jobs are not sold overseas?

      No one is has that answer, do they?

      Wonder why...?  I don't.

      Ms. B.

      •  Hell, the super partisans are already gearing up (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slinkerwink, Badabing

        for 2012 without a clue how to make any real progress on the major issues.  So all they have is trash talk.  It's all a game to them because they got picked last for the games in high school.  That's why they were so against things under Bush but suddenly did 180's when Obama got elected.  What wars?  

        The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

        by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:42:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Working for the people! Hooray DoJ!!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht, Badabing

    Man I'm so glad I'm going to vote for Dems tomorrow so those scumbag corporations will get what's coming to them.

    oh wait...

    "My administration is the only thing between you and the pitchforks." - Obama, Protector of Wall Street & Professional Hippie Puncher

    by The Dead Man on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:47:29 PM PDT

  •  hyperbolic diary (12+ / 0-)

    Nothing new about GS, especially, and other companies demanding protection of trade secrets. The reason for few news reports that the hearing will be closed: because it is not a bombshell.

    Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person. -Jan Edwards

    by SoCalSal on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 04:49:57 PM PDT

  •  Who picked Holder for AG? Oh yeah... CHANGE.. nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing, ohmyheck

    The Power of The Obama Photobomb Compels YOU! Resistance Is Futile.

    by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:02:39 PM PDT

  •  Another Bull Shit diary (4+ / 0-)

    By the same people that want us to be under Republican rule for ever to demonstrate how fuck up the world is.  

    Vote people this diary is the clearest prof that you need to vote Democratic straight ticket

    •  I have to disagree... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Badabing, LaneJ

      This is reflection of the corporatist agenda of much of the Democratic Party. If Dems could scream from the highest mountains that they would not tolerate Wall St and financial industry abuses, they would have a clear position with the voters. With the Republicans, you know what they stand for... They are corporate, militarist fascists, with a side of evangelicalism thrown in to bring in the trailer park crowd. If Democrats really had a clear ideological agenda, they wouldn't be struggling now.

      "How I hate those who are dedicated to producing conformity." William S Burroughs

      by shmuelman on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:32:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  BS...every party struggles during mid-term. That (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Iberian, amk for obama

        is the narrative. Nothing to do with ideological agenda. The agenda has been set in stone. Some just wanna fucking polarize pretending to be Democrats. Fuck that shit!

        Listen to yourself...

        If Dems could scream from the highest mountains that they would not tolerate Wall St and financial industry abuses, they would have a clear position with the voters.

        I guess the screaming is not loud enough for you. The thing is every purist democrat has such an ego that they feel they need to shit first before they are heard.

        Oh well...we shall see who wins in the end.

        ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

        by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:46:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I have a map and flash light (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shrike, amk for obama

    for you to find more hypocrisy. It seems like you know everything that is to be sealed...so why are you crying foul? Here I have a solution for you and your kind of folks...stay home tomorrow. Your pity votes are just that - pity!

    ...We have many more issues that bind us together than separate us!

    by ThisIsMyTime on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 05:22:16 PM PDT

  •  Should legalized crime be protected by law? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett, bigchin, Badabing

    My head hurts...

  •  Lol (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Crazy like a fox, Badabing

    Blue puppet or red puppets, it doesn't matter.  All the matters is that you and I aren't the puppeteers.

  •  So far off base I don't even know where to begin. (13+ / 0-)

    This post gets one thing correct: sealing a courtroom is a big deal.  Judges don't like to do it.  Any time that a federal courtroom is sealed, there should be a highly compelling reason for why justice should be kept out of the public eye.  This is especially true in a criminal case.

    But this is a criminal case against an employee who is alleged to have misappropriated information ... from Goldman.  It's not a case about wrongdoing at Goldman or Goldman's role in the financial crisis.  There is an individual defendant, being prosecuted for acts that he undertook as an individual, not for acts of wrongdoing by Goldman.

    Why does this remind me of how for the first time in our nation's history the records pertaining to AIG, what really occurred and who the hell got paid off and why, were sealed by the SEC?

    I have no idea.  There's no earthly reason why it should.  In no version of the world are they remotely comparable.

    Now, if an AIG employee stood accused of stealing from AIG, and his or her trial were closed to the public, and you were outraged about that, maybe you'd have an analogy.

    Who in the hell is Attorney General Eric Holder working for, and jeesshe, don't you wonder if Holder discussed closing down this case to the public with our beloved leader, President Obama?  I do.

    I mean, there's a slight possibility that Holder had sign-off on this request.  Someone high up in the DOJ probably did.  Seems unlikely that Holder would be involved in this sort of issue, but it's not impossible.  To think that Obama had any role in an application to seal a courtroom is the kind of frothing, baseless, flatly ignorant fever dream that you'd laugh at if it came from a teabagger.  Here, in a recommended (recommended! dear God!) diary, it's cringeworthy.

    This entire diary reflects complete and total ignorance of the law, the workings of the Justice Department, and an almost willful refusal to understand the underlying case (again -- the defendant is someone accused of stealing trade secrets from Goldman Sachs; not someone accused of acting on behalf of Goldman Sachs).  It's like you saw the words "Justice Department," "Goldman Sachs," and "sealed," and lost your mind.  Jesus Christ, it's embarrassing.

    •  Thank you. :) n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ThisIsMyTime
      •  Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        arielle, ThisIsMyTime

        The diary is staggering.  And isn't there an election tomorrow?  These aren't the dog days of February, when it's nice to sit back and let the mind wander.  Nice to see people giving up and luxuriating in fantasies about a DOJ conspiracy to cover up a prosecution of Goldman Sachs, in the false guise of a trade secrets case against a rogue IT guy.  Unreal.  As a political junkie, you come to this site hoping for information and an occasional rallying cry, but on an election eve, this made the rec list.  Unreal, man.  If it's not active trolling, it might as well be.

    •  from your words I gathered Goldman Sachs... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Badabing

      ...was the most upstanding, unimpeachable, unimpugned, misunderstood, whitest shades of the cleanest driven snow, the most ubiquitous, prolific protecters of America, mom and apple pie that ever lived! A veritable giant GOD flying on the purest wings of righteousness above and beyond the trappings of greed and unchecked power other mortal corporations and model citizens second only in stature to Washington and Jefferson, and even the angels themselves, fear to tread! How dare we question their veracity and integrity! Perish and forbid the thought that the tools of their trade ever be known to the common masses, lest we be provoked to jealousy and knock them off their high perches and trample them into the oblivion heretofore only reserved for we evil men who remain beneath their unbridled contempt!

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 01:57:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fact: Capitalists are fucking pigs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing

    The problem with most dems is that the buy the lie that capital can be contained.  They think an ideology which puts greed at the core of their philosophy will somehow move past greed.  As long as dems believe this they lose in the long run.  The fucking pig capitalists donate to both parties with the understanding that promoting this illusion is their goal.  Wanna see "change"?  Fight capitalists in the street, in the bars, at work AND at the ballot box.  If they guns bring more.  Fuck ALL capitalist pigs.  You bootlickers who think it's too extreme, get out kneepads and keep lickin.

  •  GS is an international investment firm (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing

    It has shown no inclination to follow US law. They sure like those taxpayer bailouts, though.

    Fuck em. They're a threat to our national security.

  •  Oh that's right (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing

    They're a person and entitled to all rights and protections therein. Sorry, my bad. Carry on.

    Bullshit donut. Uprated accordingly.

    "We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."

    - Louis D. Brandeis

    •  Good for you. (0+ / 0-)

      You swallowed this propaganda just the way she hoped you would. She has all of the integrity of a FOX News allstar and people like you enable her just like the people who enable FOX.

      I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

      by Mike S on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 12:40:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Quite a stretch (0+ / 0-)

        Have you seen this?

        Just because I would vote for him, it doesn't excuse him from being an enabler for Global Finance.

        Have you seen this?

        •  Oy (0+ / 0-)

          This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.

          I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

          by Mike S on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 01:42:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Please Watch Rachel Maddow Show (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arielle, robroser, amk for obama

    first 10 minutes. I think her segment was directed especially at folks such as this diarist.

  •  I'M VOTING STRAIGHT DEM TOMORROW!!! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jiffypop, Badabing, amk for obama

    Take that - all of you folks hoping for a Republican congress so that your friends can get back in power. You aren't fooling ANYONE with your BS narratives and selective diarying about all the "bad" things President Obama is doing.

    Stop posing under the guise of a disappointed progressive. The GENUINE progressives are out there VOTING..not blogging and meting out criticisms on a website. People can see through your agenda. You may win in the short term, but you will LOSE in long run - in ways that you never anticipated.

  •  Yet another ignorant bb rabble rouser. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jiffypop, robroser, Hopefruit2

    Get in Gear. 2010 or Bust.
    Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.

    by amk for obama on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 06:58:36 PM PDT

  •  Diary is just a batsignal to Obama bashers (7+ / 0-)

    Irrational, amoral diary sets a low bar for irrational, amoral and equally dim commenters.

    Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

    by Inland on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:13:04 PM PDT

  •  Reading these comments... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mike S, Brecht, LarsThorwald

    has been remarkably like watching that "Hi, I'm a teabagger" video.

    "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm mad as hell about it!"

    Well done...

    The penalty that good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. - Plato

    by robroser on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 07:32:20 PM PDT

  •  T & R'd for this gem... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Badabing

    "So here's a clue AG Eric Holder, your job is not to ask a Federal Judge to close an otherwise open courtroom to the public and the media, to protect Goldman Sachs.

    You job Holder, is to protect the American public from those that have gamed the system, and have illegally made billions that have literally brought this nation to ruination."

    Since when is protecting the proprietary rights held and used by any corporation-and consequently abused in the commission of multiple felonies, the DoJ's primary mission statement? No common man, no corporation, no public servant, NO ONE-no matter what their social or political status, is above the law.

    Proprietary or trade secrets are not above the Constitution from which all of our rights and laws flow, or do they absolve the DoJ's fudiciary responsibility to obey their oaths of office to defend the Constitution. If we accept the corporatist's' premise of their contention that they have the same equal rights as flesh and blood people, then they must be held accountable to the very same standards of obeying the same laws that we flesh and blood persons must live or die by every day, under penalty of fines, imprisonment-or in some cases, even under the penalty of death.

    We are either a free nation governed by the rule of law, or there is no justice. There can be no law and order, no civil(tort), criminal or corporate obedience to the rule of law without equal and unbiased justice meted-out under the same laws applied to, and for everyone.

    No exceptions.

    "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Nov 02, 2010 at 01:24:52 AM PDT

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