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While election day was pretty bad for Dems everywhere, it wasn't nearly as bad for the Democratic pro-Israel community.  There is one lesson that until 2010 has been a standard in the pro-Israel community (and was violated in 2010 on both sides)...Israel must be a bipartisan issue.  

It should not be made into a partisan election issue by either side.  What you saw on Election Day is that key pro-Israel members endorsed by bipartisan PACs did very well.  But members that were endorsed by the single-party partisan groups, Emergency Committee for Israel and  J Street underperformed.  More after the jump...

Good News.  Priority #1, Harry Reid (D-NV) won.  He's simply an outstanding pro-Israel leader, and one of the best friends our community has.  He was given money by almost every 'real' pro-Israel PAC out there.  I hope he is not challenged by Schumer, despite Schumer's excellent pro-Israel credentials.  Other key Democrats survived, like Bennett (D-CO), Boxer (D-CA) and Schumer (D-NY).  Historically, the pro-Israel community has preferred incumbents, and many of our closest friends in the Senate won reelection for six year terms.  Even some of the Republicans who won, aren't bad on Israel issues (they just suck at everything else).  And it looks like Joe Miller (R-AK) was defeated, which is good.  The Gaza 54 is down to 48, and I think a few more will be retiring before 2012 (the converse, though, is that if that letter was recirculated tomorrow, there might be a few more Republicans on the list--see below).  David Cicilline (D-RI) was elected to Congress.  Believe it or not, there are 4 elected GLBT folks in Congress (at least openly).  3 of the 4 are Jewish.  No f'in clue what conclusion to make there, but its interesting, no?  Its o/t but I'd love for someone to diary that one!

Bad News.  Republicans got Rand Paul (R-KY) elected.  Rand Paul will be a huge thorn in our side.  I simply cannot understate how bad Paul is for the pro-Israel community.  Even the RJC has run away from him, and they'll work for any Republican no matter how bad he is.  The Senate now has its first and only anti-Israel member.  Not cool.  Among other things, he can place 'holds' on pro-Israel legislation.  Second, we lost some great pro-Israel Democrats, most notably Grayson (D-FL), Adler (D-NJ) and Klein (D-FL).  I'll get to this later, but it is absolutely pathetic that neither ECI nor J Street gave money to these fabulous Congressmen--like their refusal to endorse Harry Reid, it shows that neither ECI nor J Street are really pro-Israel--instead each merely serves to perpetuate their own narrow ultra-partisan agendas.  I note that some mainstream bipartisan pro-Israel candidates give most of their money to Senate candidates--and they should be excused--neither ECI or J Street fit in that category.  Third, Justin Amash (R-MI) was elected.  While Amash hasn't publicly (to my knowledge) taken many anti-Israel positions, he's Palestinian, and more importantly, he publicly seeks to be the next Ron Paul.  That can't be good for the pro-Israel community.  You just don't get more anti-Israel in the Republican party than Ron Paul.  Finally, a number of tea party candidates were elected from the "liberty" wing of the tea party.  While the tea party's raison d'etre isn't foreign policy, it is likely that some of these candidates will turn out to be paleoconservatives, isolationists and anti-Israel.  This might be the only time someone says it on daily kos, but lets hope these tea party-ers follow Jim Demint on Israel instead of Ron Paul.  The other downside of the tea party takeover is that you're already hearing whispers from Majority Leader-elect Cantor that Israel should be stripped out of the foreign aid bill.  That would be a long-term disaster for the pro-Israel community.  In fact, it is an issue on which AIPAC and J Street ought to be aligned.

ECI.  Historically, most pro-Israel PACs (and all of the important ones) have been bipartisan.  2010 is the very first year that 2 large Israel-related PACs  weren't bipartisan.  These two PACs sought to make Israel an electoral issue.  Yikes!  The first, Emergency Committee for Israel, was started by right wing Republicans and Christian Zionists.  It didn't endorse a single Democrat.  It only endorsed 5 candidates, but its results were a dismal failure.  While they were 3 for 5, that doesn't tell the whole story.  ECI took on many incumbents.  If the pro-Israel community is going to take on an incumbent, it better beat him/her (see, e.g. noted anti-semite Cynthia McKinney).  If it doesn't, it has likely created a long-term enemy.  ECI lost in their challenges to Jim Himes (D-CT) and Rush Holt (D-NJ).  I fear that Himes and Holt are going to move even further against Israel in their future voting records.  Geez, thanks for nothing, ECI.

J Street.  As you might know, J Street has a notorious habit of using one of its board members (who doubles as a pollster) to release poorly constructed faux polls to justify its existence.  In fact, J Street immediately removed the list of endorsed candidates from their website and used one of these faux polls to 'prove' their point instead on running on their record.  Luckily, I saved J Street's list of endorsed candidates--61 of them, not a single Republican.  For the record, J Street endorsed 3 Senate candidates.  J Street was 0 for 3.  Yep, not a single win.  Thanks for nothing, J Street.  They endorsed 58 House candidates.  A majority of those were in safe seats.  Only 3 were not sitting incumbents.  Of the non-incumbents (NH-2, FL-25, CA-45), they lost all 3.  Not a single win here either--thanks for nothing, J Street.  CA-45 was especially bad because it took on a sitting Congressperson Bono Mack (R-CA).  Like Himes and Holt, J Street likely created an future enemy of the pro-Israel community.  Of the House seats in vulnerable districts, J Street candidates similarly got destroyed.  They lost PA-3, IL-14, IL-11, WI-8, OH-15, CO-4, NY-20, VA-5, and NH-1--all Democrats who might have done better had they not accepted the J Street stain.  There are 2 seats (VA-11, NY-25) that are too close to call.  In fact, there really aren't many close seats (e.g. ~10) that the J Street candidate pulled out (most of the J Street endorsements were in very safe seats like unopposed Capuano (D-MA) or McDermott (D-WA) or districts with very significant D-weighted PVIs like Donna Edwards (D-MD) and Jan Schakowsky (D-IL).  Yet, I think you need to look behind the numbers.  Many of the J Street-endorsed districts aren't that Jewish.  As such, the J Street endorsement isn't that relevant to the Jewish voting in these seats, though it might make a small difference on the edges.  I don't make the argument that Jews voting against the J Street candidate lost Dems districts like IL-14 or VA-5.  The J Street endorsement has a much more insidious effect.  It becomes a stain--a Scarlet A--on a candidate.  This stain attracts fundraising to the opponent (in the form of ECI and others).  In each of J Street races, the pro-Israel community donated to the opponent of the J Street candidate.  This is even true in WI-8, where the candidate was Jewish.  And so, the lesson is clear--if you don't want to attract pro-Israel money against you, don't accept the J Street endorsement.  If you accept the J Street endorsement, you might attract some fundraising from J Street, but you're likely to get a more significant amount of funds from pro-Israel groups against you.  Seems like a bad trade-off for any Congressional candidate other than the unopposed.

Conclusion  I have three points to summarize with.

  1.  If you're not endorsing candidates like Harry Reid and Ron Klein, you're just not a pro-Israel PAC.  I don't know what you are, bu you're definitely a PAC with a different agenda.
  1.  If you accept an endorsement from one of these partisan PACs, it is likely that you will draw money from the other side of the pro-Israel spectrum.  As a candidate, it is much safer to accept an endorsement from a mainstream bi-partisan pro-Israel PAC.  The converse, however, is that there are dozens of small pro-Israel PACs and in their short lifetimes, J Street and ECI have done a very good job fundraising.
  1.  The anti-Israel wing of the Democratic party shrunk in the 2010 elections, but the anti-Israel wing of the Republican party grew.  This is a trend that bears very close watching.

Originally posted to oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 10:46 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (3+ / 4-)

    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

    by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 10:46:50 AM PDT

    •  I STRONGLY recommend you revise the "Palestinian" (16+ / 0-)

      part of your diary.

      I'm talking about this (emphasis added):

      Third, Justin Amash (R-MI) was elected.  While Amash hasn't publicly (to my knowledge) taken many anti-Israel positions, he's Palestinian,

      As it stands it reeks of bigotry. The "Ron Paul" continuation does not excuse this bigotry.

      Right, you support Israel's government. Great for you. But is it "bad news" that a Palestinian got elected to Congress? How would you respond if someone said there are "too many Jews in Congress?"

      Please clarify: what kind of Palestinian would you greet differently upon being elected to Congress? One who is an AIPAC darling? One who never mentions the Middle East and tries to hide his Arab heritage?

      Any way you cut it,

      This. Does. Not. Belong. In. A. Progressive. Site.

      It is also definitely within the HR'able realm, but I will defer for now.

      (h/t to weasel for pointing this out)

      •  To answer your question (0+ / 0-)

        what kind of Palestinian would you greet differently upon being elected to Congress? One who is an AIPAC darling? One who never mentions the Middle East and tries to hide his Arab heritage?

        My response: Yes, one who is pro-Israel.  And I note there have been many pro-Israel Arab Americans like Jeanne Shaheen currently and Spence Abraham in the past.  Neither one has made any attempt to hide their Arab heritage, and in fact, both are regularly endorsed by Arab groups.

        I guess the better question is "why don't you think its relevant to a pro-Israel diary that someone is Palestinian"?  I'd certainly think it was relevant if a candidate was Israeli, and in fact, I can't count how many diaries note that Rahm Emmanuel's dad is Israeli.

        "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

        by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:19:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And to answer my own question... (0+ / 0-)

          The google search "site:dailykos.com rahm israeli" turned up 6,530 results.

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:20:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, but if someone wrote on DKos (13+ / 0-)

            that "it is bad news that so-and-so got elected because his dad is Israeli, and he's also...",

            that diary would get HR'ed out of existence and its author auto-banned.

            Let us apply a fair equitable standard. Either we are against bigotry and race/ethnic-baiting, or not.

            Perhaps you didn't notice the bigoted tinge of your words. Now it has been pointed out. Please correct.

            •  Do you want me (0+ / 0-)

              to go through the 6,530 hits and pull out all the uses of "Israeli" like that.. because I promise you there are dozens and dozens of them where no HR's were levied.

              The fact that someone is Israeli or Palestinian is kinda relevant to, ya know, discussing Israel and a Palestinian state.  It isn't relevant to, say, health care.  Or anything else for that matter.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:32:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Whilst I agree with your criticism (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TLS66, Mets102

              of oldschooldem's phrasing, the belief that a diary or post would get "HR'd out of existence and its author auto-banned" is not true.

              post with 11 recs

              Sure, he's banned NOW.

              No HR, no banning.

              Association quite clear here.

              This one only got a couple of recs.

              Ahhh...dual loyalty couched as concern.

              This is just a sampling but there were tons of comments, diaries, and outright lies posted for a time there and a fair few went unchallenged.

              You are wrong, Mr. President. The American people ARE stupid.

              by arielle on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 07:11:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Arielle, you prove the lop-sidedness of this (5+ / 0-)
                1. You draw an overstretched analogy between comments mentioning that many in Obama's White House team including his Chief of Staff have close Israel ties and have been hawkish on Israel, and that this might affect policy, with a diary baldly stating it is "bad news" that a Palestinian-American got elected to the House, without even checking what that new House member says about the issue.

                Sorry, not the same. Even if some of these comments were wrong on the facts.

                1. You draw a false analogy between comments tucked into all sorts of corners of the diarrhea that is I-P threads - and a bigoted statement smack in the middle of a diary with 100 comments.

                Sorry, again not the same.

                The one analogy which is roughly accurate - the diary from Nov.'08 that goes way too far  and extremely ugly in drawing accusations from Rahm's dad to Rahm himself (btw, I do think it was a grave mistake to appoint him, for domestic issues not b/c of I-P)

                - that particular ugly diary currently has these tags:

                troll, falme, anti-semitic bullshit

                The tip-jar was either hidden, or the diarist never dared to post one. He also (though not banned, apparently) has disappeared from the community shortly thereafter.

                QED on both counts.

                First, on my claim that there is practically zero tolerance towards any true anti-Jewish bigotry in this community (and that's good).

                Second, that those claiming to speak for Israel here continue abusing this good property by claiming a unilateral right to over-interpret any comment which might somehow be construed as bigotry against Jews (e.g. the attempt to pretend AIPAC is an endangered ethnic group, rather than a powerful bullying political lobby, which is happening in this very thread)

                - all the while discounting, looking aside or even cheering at far more obvious expressions of anti-Arab bigotry. Or "settling them off" by bringing in lists of comments and diaries from 2008 to show that Jews are just as persecuted and unwelcome here as Arabs. This is bullshit and you know it.

                This disruptive approach makes it impossible to weed out the real bigotry that does exist against Arabs, here and elsewhere. Which ultimately serves to poison the I-P debate here (and that's bad).

                I did not HR the tip-jar because I thought this is an educational opportunity, to show how casual the anti-Arab bigotry runs here and to help eliminate it. Seems like we are in for a very long lesson with extremely unwilling students.

                •  Oh really (0+ / 0-)

                  "he attempt to pretend AIPAC is an endangered ethnic group, rather than a powerful bullying political lobby, which is happening in this very thread"

                  AIPAC isn't an endangered ethnic group, and as the most prominent AIPAC supporter here, I'd happily say that.  It doesn't bully, but it is a powerful lobby.  It is our job in the pro-Israel community to help keep it that way.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 10:31:30 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It is my job as an Israeli trying to bring (5+ / 0-)

                    his country back on track, to make sure that AIPAC either changes its ways drastically - or that its power is broken.

                    Because at present, AIPAC is a huge part of the problem. It is one of the chief bad guys in the I-P story.

                    No better from the oil-gas lobby on global warming.

                    But anyway, my comment was not about this.

                    It was about your bigoted statement that it is "bad news" a Palestinian-American finally got elected to Congress. btw, instead of whining about it, don't Democrats have some soul-searching to do, seeing that it had to happen on a Republican ticket even tho most Arab-Americans currently vote Dem?

                    •  I think (0+ / 0-)

                      the Democratic party IS the pro-Israel party and anti-Israel folks belong in the other party, not our party.  Its amazing to me that liberal Democrats like Alan Dershowitz and Steve Grossman are vilified for being pro-Israel... when being pro-Israel has been in our party's platform from time immemorial.

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 01:56:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Interestingly, Amash'es website (12+ / 0-)

          has a position paper (pdf) on Israel that is completely boilerplate and centrist.

          He doesn't mention there being Palestinian, nor does he rail against the "special relationship" with Israel.

          The only ones going on and on about him being Palestinian, it seems, are Jewish sources. We wouldn't know a Palestinian-American was elected to Congress, had it not been for the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and oldskooldem.

          Talk about dog whistles. This bigotry is well into the whale-whistle range.

          Again, I humbly suggest that you recant and revise.

          •  Again (0+ / 0-)

            pro-Israel groups having been maxing out to Jeanne Shaheen, which I support.  She's an Arab American (and a Democrat).  No dog whistle or whale whistle or deaf donkey whistle there.   However, the Ron Paul ideology is the worst thing to come to America (for the pro-Israel movement) in quite a long time.  And Justin Amash wants to be Ron Paul.  That means virulently anti-Israel.

            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

            by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:29:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh Assaf,... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, arielle, capelza, Mets102

            Stop bothering him with facts when he can simply pull commentary out of his rear.

            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:44:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Don't bother.... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1, capelza, Assaf, Mets102

        He supports the rubber stamping but won't actually go do anything he supports.

        Lately Assaf, I find myself disagreeing with you somewhat, but, I can not take away from your on the ground experience of having been there or part of the reality of what we are discussing.

        Like OSD, I have not and my time living there was short, but, I do have ties to Israel that allow me to see the horrible effects that the Occupation has on Palestinian as well as Israeli society.

        Unlike OSD and his counterparts in Israel (he sounds a lot like Im Tirtzu - doesn't he?), I don't make shit up about representing mainstream American Jews without any kind of backup numbers. For him being Pro-Israel is just rubber stamping anything no matter how stupid it might be. For me being Pro-Israel is actually caring about Israelis, and the country.

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:42:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  One correction (0+ / 0-)

          "For him being Pro-Israel is just rubber stamping anything no matter how stupid it might be."

          I'd revise to say "For him being Pro-Israel is just rubber stamping anything related to Israel's security concerns no matter how stupid it might be."

          I criticize Israel on religious/secular issues all the time.  But a) I don't live there, and b) those aren't issues for the US government to opine on.

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:44:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ok... certainly (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, capelza, Mets102

            so you feel you are qualified to discuss religious issues with the State but not security. Gotcha.

            My bad........

            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:51:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not (0+ / 0-)

              qualified to have an opinion that counts, but I can certainly criticize Israel on those points and be well within mainstream Jewry.  You'll note, for instance, that on the recent conversion bill, all sorts of American Jewish groups spoke up.  

              Again, you might disagree with mainstream Jewry's approach to Israel, but I won't buy a claim that I'm not right smack dab in the mainstream.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:56:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't ask you to buy it (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                and I don't care if you do.. You are not in the mainstream and until you produce numbers to show you are, why do I need believe you? BTW, I don't.

                Jews of all types criticize Israel for lots of things, but criticism does not equal not being "pro-Israel".

                I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:35:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with Assaf's point here (7+ / 0-)

        That sentence in the diary is bigoted to the max, and has no business being presented on a Democratic blog.

        Tip Jar is Hr'ed accordingly, and I hope others will do the same.

      •  Agreed completely (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1, arielle, Red Sox, Assaf, Mets102

        His ethnic heritage should be irrelevant.  It isn't right when people attack certain senators and representatives for being Jewish, and it isn't right when people attack senators or representatives for having Palestinian heritage, either.

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 09:45:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But its not... (0+ / 0-)

          its fair game to say, for example, that Rahm Emmanuel is Israeli.  Its a fact that has bearing on matters related to Israel.  Same here.  Now, what Rahm's dad did is completely irrelevant.  But Rahm's heritage very much has a bearing on discussion.  

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:00:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No it is NOT okay to say that. (8+ / 0-)

            It is okay to say Rahm is Jewish.  But the guy is an American citizen and only an American citizen.

            It would also NOT BE OKAY to say that Rahm's Jewishness should be a concern for any block of voters.

            You are wrong, Mr. President. The American people ARE stupid.

            by arielle on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 07:16:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I actually (0+ / 0-)

              think the fact that he's Jewish isn't as relevant to his views on Israel as the fact that he's Israeli.  By contrast, I think the fact that he's Jewish is much more relevant to his views on separation of church and state than whether the's Israeli or any other nationality.

              For the record, Rahm isn't a dual citizen.  He is Jewish.  And Justin Amash is Christian.  And I don't think that has anything at all to do with Israel.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 08:56:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  On second thought. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      livosh1

      I didn't have any HR's for a day after I posted this.  Now I have three.  I thought again about it.  And I still think I'm right and you should reconsider.  Being pro-Israel, in part, means that in the historic struggle between Israelis and Palestinians in the area known as Israel, Gaza, etc., one is more sympathetic to the Israeli argument than the Palestinian argument.  You simply cannot explain to me how being Palestinian is not at all relevant to that analysis.

      Is it relevant, for example, that to whether Jared Polis is especially strong fighting for gay rights that he's gay?  Is it relevant, for example, that John Kerry is a particularly strong supporter of veterans' benefits that he's a veteran?  Is it relevant that Bob Menendez has taken a special interest in Cuba, you know the fact that he's Cuban?  

      Of course its relevant.  The fact that Justin Amash is Palestinian doesn't, by itself, make him any better or worse than any non-Palestinian lawmaker.  But you're on crack if you think that fact isn't at all relevant to whether he will be a pro-Israel lawmaker.  And the combination of that and the fact that he wants to be the second coming of Ron Paul is pretty damn good evidence he's going to be a very anti-Israel lawmaker.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 09:06:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Way to double down (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, Mets102

        don't you know when it is time to stop digging.

        Ummm where is Rahm Emanuel an Israeli.. He was born in America, He does not hold dual citizenship, He is 100% American.

        Sorry but when you start repeating lies of Anti-Semites... that is a bad move.

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 09:13:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nothing (0+ / 0-)

          wrong with doubling down when you think about it and you're right.  You use the phrase double down like its a bad thing.  Its really comical.

          Have you met Rahm?  Have you met Rahm's family?  Have you been to his synagogue on numerous occasions?  He's American through and through.  He was born here.  He's a citizen here.  He is 100% American.  And his loyalty is American and undivided as an American.  Those are facts.  And it is anti-semitic to suggest otherwise.

          But that ain't what I'm saying.  He is fundamentally an American Jew with an Israeli dad.  His heritage is that of an Israeli Jew's upbringing, just like you might come from a Russian Jewish upbringing or a Moroccan Jewish upbringing.  Are you still completely American with undivided loyalties.  Of course.  But are you really arguing that doesn't color one's world view at all?  

          But I'll go a step further.  Look at your boy Ben Ami.  His J Street profile says "His father was born in Tel Aviv."  Why does he think that is relevant to his credentials at a "so-called pro-Israel" organization?  Interesting, huh?  Why is that fact relevant for Ben Ami but not for Rahm (at least when Rahm was in Congress--I'm the first to agree that Israeli heritage has no bearing on being mayor of Chicago).

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 09:26:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  hmm (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza

            The fact that Justin Amash is Palestinian doesn't, by itself, make him any better or worse than any non-Palestinian lawmaker.  But you're on crack if you think that fact isn't at all relevant to whether he will be a pro-Israel lawmaker.

            how does this sound to you?

            The fact that rahm is jewish doesn't, by itself, make him any better or worse than any non-jewish lawmaker.  But you're on crack if you think that fact isn't at all relevant to whether he will be a pro-balance lawmaker.

            (for those of us concerned w/the US being a balanced broker in the i/p conflict)

            iow, should i not vote for jewish lawmakers under the assumption because they are jewish they won't be impartial or balanced?

            notice how i switched out israeli for jewish? in this circumstance i think that is acceptable because palestinian is used as an ethnic classification (as is jewish) and that is how you used it initially. i think it is a fair analogy. lawmakers are supposed to leave there ethnicities at the door when they make decisions, i expect them to anyway. i think there are varying definitions of what 'pro-israel' means to some people. google 'Former AIPAC aide calls J Street fleas and liars'.

            i embrace multi culturalism in this country and i embrace it is our lawmakers. it's a pity you do not. had you stuck w/your ron paulish reasons your comment wouldn't have been racist.

            don't tell me i'm on crack if i think an ethnic classification will not automatically lead to a political choice. the only nationality i recognize in our congress is american, period.

            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

            by zannie on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 11:15:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, it is (0+ / 0-)

              acceptable to reverse it and say he's got Israeli heritage and that might have a bearing on how he views Israel.  Why is that even remotely controversial?

              And I don't thing being Israel or Palestinian will automatically lead to a political choice.  That's moronic.  Do I think that that, combined with other evidence, is pretty relevant?  Uh huh.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 01:58:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oy..... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zannie, Mets102

                just quit while you are behind.. please this is getting painful. You say:

                Yes it is, acceptable to reverse it and say he's got Israeli heritage and that might have a bearing on how he views Israel.  Why is that even remotely controversial?

                It might have a bearing on his views but, it does not mean his views are the same as his fathers or anyone else. Furthermore, his job was White House Chief of Staff. His duty is to America before anything else. His background should not matter in that position.

                From what I understand his views differ from his father positions on the conflict. And really his decision making process in this case needs come completely from his frame of reference and with an eye on the American people.

                zannie has you dead on here. And when she says this:

                don't tell me i'm on crack if i think an ethnic classification will not automatically lead to a political choice. the only nationality i recognize in our congress is american, period.

                She is absolutely right - and you, you are a caricature.

                A piece of advice. When digging a hole - don't dig to deep that you can't get out. Your failed justifications do just that.

                I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 01:27:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Did I say (0+ / 0-)

                  his views were his fathers?  Of course they're not.  In fact, I call that out in another comment.  His views are his.  

                  And no where did I say that ethnic classification automatically leads to anything.  In fact, I noted the exact opposite in speaking about Jeanne Shaheen.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 04:58:37 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I see reading and comprehension are skills (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie

                    that you seem to be missing.

                    You missed the entire point of my comment and misunderstood the rest. Way to go.

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:16:51 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  helllloooo (0+ / 0-)

                    And no where did I say that ethnic classification automatically leads to anything.

                    so what the hell is this:

                    you're on crack if you think that fact isn't at all relevant to whether he will be a pro-Israel lawmaker.

                    'the fact' you referenced was this:

                    The fact that Justin Amash is Palestinian

                    so.. it doesn't 'automatically' lead to anything..but it's relevant? so relevant you use it for this conclusion:

                    pretty damn good evidence he's going to be a very anti-Israel lawmaker

                    anti israel? does it ever occur to you anti occupation is good for isreal? israel is digging itself a hole. some might call it a grave. diversify oldie, try another version of 'pro israel', give it a chance.

                    "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                    by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 08:12:15 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There is no other (0+ / 0-)

                      version of pro-Israel.  Pro-Israel is pro-israel.  There's been this effort by some (and apparently you agree with it) to "dumb" the definition down so that everyone is pro-Israel.  But there is an accepted definition already so that doesn't really work.

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 08:18:19 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you'e so wrong on that (0+ / 0-)

                        pro israel should mean survival. take your head out of your ass and imagine survival includes the global community. ethnic cleansing will not ingratiate the global community to israel.

                        But there is an accepted definition already so that doesn't really work.

                        accepted by whom? some 'pro israelites' are pro transfer.  were talkin' upwards of 6 million people. how's that number work for you oldie? is that pro israel enough for you? get a friggin grip dude, it comes down to resolution/ bye bye israel/ or ethinic cleansing-genocide. take your pick, i'm all ears.

                        wake the f up. there are no easy answers here. pro israel sentiment can easily lead to the destruction of israel if we don't intercede. who's team are you on?

                        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                        by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:01:41 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Again (0+ / 0-)

                          thanks for the concern, but I'm not going to let the definition of pro-Israel be hijacked, by, among others, someone who isn't pro-Israel.  

                          Israel doesn't have to worry about survival.  We're in the reality based community here.  Israel is going to survive just like America and the UK are going to survive.

                          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                          by oldskooldem on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 07:13:39 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  no (0+ / 0-)

                            neither the US or UK are apartheid states, so clearly israel (in it's present state of ruling over millions of people w/no citizenship, rights or representation) israel will not be surviving just like America and the UK are going to survive.

                            at all. the only way israel is going to survive is massive transformation that does not include transfer.  a process of massive ethic cleansing challenges israel's survival.

                            I'm not going to let the definition of pro-Israel be hijacked

                            that should be a neat trick. oldie the controller of world opinion. i'm afraid (last i heard) you are not the owner of what it means to be pro israel.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 01:26:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                            Israel will survive and thrive despite your harshest hopes for its destruction.  Kindly go fuck yourself.
                            Sincerely,
                            OSD

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 06:44:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh please (0+ / 0-)

                            i have no wish for israel to be destroyed, not in the least and not at all, ever.  i have very high hopes for israel and a land of happy people. please be more reasonable. no one wants to be isolated in the world, israel's actions isolate israel. burston:

                            But many Americans, Friedman continued "just are fed up with this conflict, and over time, that will become a national security problem for Israel, given the fact that the United States is your only friend."

                            Long term, American emotional divestment, Jewish and non, may well prove more of a threat to Israel's future than Ahmedinejad and his bomb factories, or Nasrallah and Mashaal and their rockets.

                            the reason israel doesn't have a lot of friends right now is because of it's actions, it's deligitimizing itself. read the rest of the article. again, i do not want to destroy israel i want israel to live up to international humanitarian rights and standards/laws. i have faith they will it's just going to take more effort.

                            and no, i will not be kindly fucking myself.

                            ;)

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 07:25:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  thank you /nt (0+ / 0-)

                  "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                  by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 08:14:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  First of all you say (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            this:

            its fair game to say, for example, that Rahm Emmanuel is Israeli (vb1 emphasis).  Its a fact that has bearing on matters related to Israel.  Same here.  Now, what Rahm's dad did is completely irrelevant.  But Rahm's heritage very much has a bearing on discussion.

            And then you do a 180 and say this:

            Have you met Rahm?  Have you met Rahm's family?  Have you been to his synagogue on numerous occasions?  He's American through and through.  He was born here.  He's a citizen here.  He is 100% American.  And his loyalty is American and undivided as an American.  Those are facts.  And it is anti-semitic to suggest otherwise.(vb1 emphasis)

            First of all I agree with your second paragraph, and second of all by your first paragraph,but,  apparently you are anti-Semetic (something I find hard to believe) in your own words.

            Perhaps you just mis-spoke.....  

            As for Jeremy Ben-Ami... he is head of a Pro-Israeli lobby - his Israeli background is fundamental to his political life. Are you telling me the head of a PAC is the equivalent to the White House Chief of Staff? Seriously? That is a fairly stupid ananlogy.

            I would seriously quit while you are behind here.

            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

            by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 01:20:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Uh (0+ / 0-)

              He's American, with Israeli heritage. So is Jeremy Ben Ami.  Nothing wrong with that.  In fact, I'd love to see more Americans with Israeli heritage become involved in public life.  

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 05:00:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  the problem as i see it (0+ / 0-)

        Being pro-Israel, in part, means that in the historic struggle between Israelis and Palestinians in the area known as Israel, Gaza, etc., one is more sympathetic to the Israeli argument than the Palestinian argument.

        frankly i don't think that serves as a great 'pro israel' positioning. ultimately 'pro israel' should mean striving for what's best for israel all things considered.

        leave your sympathies at the door and ratchet up your logic. there are only so many options. recall no man is an island and that goes for countries too.

        here are israels options:

        2 states
        transfer
        one state
        genocide

        lets rule out genocide for brevity. lots of 'pro israel' supporters love transfer which is the sure path for global rejection of israel (call it a nail in the coffin if you will). that leaves only two optons. one or two states. now, if you agree w/that every single person who would accept 2 states (even the 'cess pool' areikat) whether israel, palestinian, jewish american, american-palestinian,  leftie american (whether jewish or not) etc..is..on your team. iow you should not be singling out for rejection future comrads and labeling them 'anti israel' merely because of 'sentiment'. because ultimately anyone who wants a resolution is good for israel.

        your adversaries are those who want either transfer or worse (and believe me they fit your definition of more sympathetic to the Israeli argument). this will be the death knell for israel mark my words. 'more sympathetic to the Israel' is not the gold standard, resolution is, and for that you NEED palestinians. think of them as on your team. (massive mind stretch i know). think peace. stretch your mentality.

        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

        by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 08:48:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  First (0+ / 0-)

          thanks for the concern, but I'll let the pro-Israel community, of which you are not a part, determine what pro-Israel is.  The only solution is a two-state solution.  One state is down there with genocide, and transfer is not viable for a variety of reasons.  The only questions are 'when does the 2 state solution occur, and is it unilateral or bilateral'?

          Not everyone who wants a resolution is good for Israel.  Folks who want a resolution that is good for Israel are pro-Israel.  A bad resolution for Israel (e.g. a bad two-state solution) are not pro-Israel.

          When I see Palestinians, for example, willing to cede that Jerusalem will be the eternal undivided capital of Israel and that Israel is the Jewish state, I'd be happy to label them pro-Israel.  There are Israeli Druze who take these positions in Israel, for example.  Some are actually further to the right than Netanyahu.

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 07:11:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hey OSD. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greatdarkspot

    I barely had time to skim before my first subject showed up.

    It's nice to see somebody challenge J Street. I'll read more and comment more later.

    Good diary! T'd & R'd.

    I'm gay and I'm pissed. I'm not giving up, I'm not giving in, I'm not backing down, and I'm not going away. Deal with it.

    by psychodrew on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 10:54:27 AM PDT

    •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greatdarkspot

      I want it to be clear, though, that I'm challenging both PACs, not just one.  Both of them do more harm then good.  We're strongest as a community when we unite--left, right and center--against true threats to the community like noted anti-semite Cynthia McKinney.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 10:57:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bullshit (16+ / 1-)

    Where was AIPAC when a Republican Likudnick organization was smearing Joe Sestak in ad after ad?  I realize you're upset that Steny Hoyer, an unicorporated subsidiary of AIPAC, won't become Democratic leader, but don't start lecturing progressives.

    "I've never believed that government's role is to create jobs . . . So this week, I've proposed a six year infrastructure plan."

    by Paleo on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:02:53 AM PDT

    •  AIPAC (4+ / 0-)

      wasn't smearing Joe Sestak.  AIPAC doesn't rate or endorse candidates.  A right-wing group called ECI was.  AIPAC stays bipartisan.

      As for Steny Hoyer, Nancy Pelosi has been one of the best pro-Israel speakers in history.  Steny will be a great speaker one day too, but I support Nancy in her bid for reelection to Speaker.  

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:09:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  AIPAC doesn't rate or endorse candidates (8+ / 0-)

        It doesn't list "friends" of Israel?  And if you're not on that list because you won't genuflect before AIPAC's policy of defending any and every Israeli policy and action, no matter how abhorent, that doesn't send a message?

        A wink is as good as a nod.

        "I've never believed that government's role is to create jobs . . . So this week, I've proposed a six year infrastructure plan."

        by Paleo on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:13:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  AIPAC may not have smeared Sestak (5+ / 0-)

        but you did as anti-Israel (despite his very pro-Israel record of endorsements and experience). You even said we should not give to Sestak because it was a total lost cause (though that didn't matter I gave to Sestak and even again in part because of your slander of him). Turns out Sestak almost pulled it off.

        But I see we agree on one thing. I too back Speaker Pelosi. I think she was an effective leader and I support her.

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:25:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I make it very clear (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greatdarkspot

          that I don't represent AIPAC and I haven't worked there in forever and a half.  In fact, I'm out of professional politics completely.  I do think having a Gaza 54 member in the Senate would have been bad.

          But I ask you, under what planet--under what set of standards, could Joe Sestak have possibly been deemed more pro-Israel than Harry Reid?  That one just boggles my mind.

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:27:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And how could someone... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Brecht, MBNYC, stevenaxelrod

            to the right of Rick Santorum being elected in a blue-leaning swing state be considered good?

            Congress shall make no law...

            by Mets102 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:31:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'd prefer someone to the right (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              greatdarkspot

              of Atilla the Hun, for instance, is that was my choice against Cynthia McKinney.  Now I'm in no way comparing Sestak to McKinney.  I am saying, however, that traditionally, the pro-Israel community will take both sides of open seat races, and this one in particular.

              If I were Sestak, I would have 1) apologized for being one of the Gaza 54 and repudiated my signature and removed myself from the J Street list, and 2) attacked Toomey for opposing foreign aid to Israel, in effect out pro-Israeling Toomey.  He didn't really take that approach, which could have made a difference.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:37:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We're not talking Cynthia McKinney here... (0+ / 0-)

                We're talking Penn. Senate Sestak v. Toomey here.  You yourself say the following:

                If I were Sestak, I would have... attacked Toomey for opposing foreign aid to Israel, in effect out pro-Israeling Toomey.

                Now, given your own words, please tell me how having Toomey in the Senate is better for Israel than having Sestak in the Senate.

                Congress shall make no law...

                by Mets102 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:40:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think it is a mixed bag (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  greatdarkspot

                  I think on issues of war and peace, Toomey will be a stronger supporter of Israel.  On foreign aid though, which is always priority #1 for the pro-Israel community, we're going to have some real chalenges with the tea partyites.  We'll see how it plays out.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:43:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  By the way (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  greatdarkspot

                  and sorry for the double reply, I think you saw the start of this in the 2008 Republican primary debates.  They'd ask a question about Israel and all of the candidates but one would try to out-Israel each other.  The funniest was Huckabee, who has been to Israel more than I was--Huckabee would have an easier time being elected PM of Israel than President of the US.  And then Ron Paul came and was basically like "Israel should wither on the vine".  The more Ron Pauls, the worst it is for Israel.  The real question is, why many Ron Pauls did we inadvertently just elect?  I don't know the answer yet (other than Amash).  I hope its not many!

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:47:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I'm sorry but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            where did I ever say:

            But I ask you, under what planet--under what set of standards, could Joe Sestak have possibly been deemed more pro-Israel than Harry Reid?

            Does this quote have relevance?

            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:49:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It isn't a quote (0+ / 0-)

              it has relevance to my diary--which is that ECI and J Street aren't really pro-Israel if their endorsing Joe Sestak and Pat Toomey over Harry Reid.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:51:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ummmm J Street (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                endorsed Pat Toomey "over" Harry Reid? Can you show me that please.

                They didn't take on every race - that is just silly. Sestak was a great candidate for Senate. Reid, meh... the best you can say about him is that he is not Sharron Angle. But I am not sure what one has to do with the other. I would have done the same thing J Street did with the resources I had.

                I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:54:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Uh, do you read at all? (0+ / 0-)

                  Seriously, its only one sentence.  Reread what I said and tell me where I said J Street endorsed Pat Toomey over Harry Reid.  Please block quote it and put it in shiny italics.

                  As for Reid, he was supported by almost every pro-Israel PAC in the country because he's been absolutely incredible for Israel.  

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:12:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Right here (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102

                    which is that ECI and J Street aren't really pro-Israel if their endorsing Joe Sestak and Pat Toomey over Harry Reid.

                    There you go... or did you mean to say: "ECI and J Street aren't really pro-Israel if they endorse Joe Sestak (in J Street's case) or ECI (in Toomey's case) over Harry Reid"

                    Or... were you trying to get a shot in at J Street and decidedly left proper wording by the curbside.

                    As for Reid, he was supported by almost every pro-Israel PAC in the country because he's been absolutely incredible for Israel.

                    That's wonderful... and as Senate Majority leader he is weak. Sorry, that's just the way I feel and since I am an American (and not Israeli) first, I tend to care about how our politicians feel first about America then about other nations.

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:20:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Uh... (0+ / 0-)

                      I did not say J Street endorsed Pat Toomey over Harry Reid.  I said they endorsed Joe Sestak instead of Harry Reid.  And thats factually accurate.

                      You can feel what you want about Harry Reid and how he approaches health care and stimulus and what not.  This is a diary dedicated sole to pro-Israel concerns.  It takes no position on health care or stimulus.  And for pro-Israel concerns, Harry Reid is an awesome leader.

                      In addition, neither ECI nor J Street purport to care about health care or stimulus.  Both fictitiously claim to be pro-Israel.  If they really were, they'd just care about Harry Reid and Israel, too.  The fact that they don't show they have other agendas.

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:24:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No you didn't (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mets102

                        I did not say J Street endorsed Pat Toomey over Harry Reid.  I said they endorsed Joe Sestak instead of Harry Reid.  And thats factually accurate.

                        You may have meant that - as my reworded commented made clear but that is not what you said.

                        In addition, neither ECI nor J Street purport to care about health care or stimulus.  Both fictitiously claim to be pro-Israel.

                        Yes about ECI (who is merely a Republican front group for morons) and No about J Street. J Street wamts to elect people that are strong two state advocates. That is their stated goal. Joe Sestak was more that than Harry Reid.

                        And again.. exactly who died and made you the owner of the term "pro-Israel"? I am waiting for confirmation and proof that yours is the only definition for the term. You have yet to produce that.

                        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:29:28 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Show me (0+ / 0-)

                          any link--ever--where Harry Reid says absolutely anything besides that he wants a 2 state solution.  Anything.  Ever.  Feel free to go back to the time before it was cool to be for a 2 state solution.  For that matter, I'll even take something that hints that he wants something other than a 2 state solution.

                          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:34:49 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh I have no problem with Harry (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            wanting a two-State solution. But Joe Sestak wanted what I think is more in like with a realistic two-State solution that will be accepted by the Palestinians and the World Community (remember for this to work it's good to have "buy-in" from them as well. I like that Joe Sestak wanted to end the humanitarian blockade BUT NOT THE MILITARY blockade of Gaza. I think that is in Israel's long term interests.

                            But again... Joe Sestak fit exactly into what J Street wanted. Reid didn't. When allocating resources you back those directly who back what you believe. How is this an issue for you?

                            Again... please answer:

                            ....exactly who died and made you the owner of the term "pro-Israel"? I am waiting for confirmation and proof that yours is the only definition for the term. You have yet to produce that.

                            I await that response.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:40:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How is the answer to the question (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I asked you regarding "Pro-Israel"? I was just wondering since you toss a term around but really can't defend it. OR are you finally willing to admit that perhaps the term means different things to different people and that really the base definintion of supporting a long term, viable, Jewish State and National homeland for the Jewish people is "Pro-Israel"?

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 04:02:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, I'm right (0+ / 0-)

                            on this one, but you won't admit when you're wrong, so I'll continue to actually be pro-Israel and support pro-Israel causes and you can pretend with your fairy tale.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 05:22:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Keep dreamin' buddy.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            You are dead wrong but keep your delusion going. It's funny and sad.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 06:03:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

        •  By the way... on Pelosi and Reid (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          arcticken

          the mainstream pro-Israel community has always taken the view that it should support incumbents absent a real reason not to (e.g. McKinney).  Pelosi and Reid are both extraordinarily pro-Israel, and I support both of them to continue in their jobs, despite the fact that Hoyer and Schumer are quite pro-Israel too.

          The pro-Israel community shouldn't work under the "more and better" standard.  It should work under the "more" standard.

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:31:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  As this diaries comments show "better," is rather (0+ / 0-)

            subjective; just like "Pro."

            •  Yes and no (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              arcticken

              Better is subjective.. but if a lawmaker is pro-Israel enough, the Jewish community ought not oppose him.  That's not how we've gained influence on issues relating to Israel.. and we've taken the right (and more pragmatic approach).  I absolutely won't trade a lawmaker who is a B on Israel for one who is an A on Israel.  We must, as a community, support our friends-even when they slip up here and there.

              If they slip up too bad, though, that's when we challenge them.  That's why I think the opposition to (and support for) Schakowsky was silly.  She's an A- or an A... to challenge her to get an A+ goes against everything the pro-Israel community believes in.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 05:25:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  HR'ed for this: (5+ / 0-)

      Steny Hoyer, an unicorporated subsidiary of AIPAC, won't become Democratic leader

      Saying Jews/Israel/Zionists/Pro-Israel group(s) own a member of Congress is anti-Semitic and HR'able. Donutted accordingly. Comment reported.

      Congress shall make no law...

      by Mets102 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:12:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  PEP (Progressive except for Palestine) (5+ / 0-)

      Has the Progressive Caucus formally endorsed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      Nonetheless, Ron Paul's Tea party making big gains in the House, which controls the foreign aid budget, is going to be interesting as it takes on the establishment, which is bi-partisan and staunchly pro-Israel.
      http://mondoweiss.net/...

      •  Ugh. Mondoweiss. Yuk. Do you have to? n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MBNYC
        •  Yup. Recently Blogrolled Mondoweiss. n/t (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          weasel, Rusty Pipes, corvo, Terra Mystica
          •  Disgusting. n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dhonig
            •  Just like the occupation. n/t (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Euroliberal, corvo, Terra Mystica
              •  Just like claims Jews have (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JNEREBEL, arielle, MBNYC, Mets102, arcticken

                no history on the land (a claim supported vociferously on Mondoweiss).

                I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:43:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ask to post on Mondoweiss. He's pretty open to (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Brecht, capelza, corvo, Terra Mystica

                  debate.  He posted a follow up to a response from Burston during his American tour.
                  http://mondoweiss.net/...

                  •  Oh I didn't say he wouldn't let me post (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    arielle, MBNYC, Mets102

                    there, in fact I think he would probably have no problem letting me post. I just don't because I find most of the commentary there particularly noxious and full of barely hidden anti-Semitism (in my opinion). I don't really feel like going there all that much.

                    I went there about 3x this week, and if I don't go back it might be too soon. Again, just my opinion.

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:59:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Or the dastardly JEWISH LOBBY!!!!! n/t (0+ / 0-)
                •  no history? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Rusty Pipes

                  care to support that allegation? i've not read that on mondoweiss either on the front page or comments.

                  "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                  by zannie on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 05:06:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  CRICKETS (0+ / 0-)

                    "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                    by zannie on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 08:43:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  zannie (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Brecht, Mets102

                      I don't sit by the computer waiting to answer your posts. You may do that wrt me but sorry... I actually have a life.

                      As for Mondoweiss - I am not going to that cesspool (my opinion) again. I read an interview there with a PLO official (I believe)... happily posted that posited that the Jews did not have a presence and was answered with something like "I am not an archelogist" but...

                      We know that the Second temples was in Jerusalem. How.... Well there there is this wall thingie... There is David's tower... there are just a few other things. The interviewee went on to say that the Palestinians are really the modern day ancestors of the Jews. Forget those European Zionists (sounds a lot like the Khazar myth).

                      While I am sure some Palestinians are...  my people were there and had a presence in Jerusalem. I know you want to believe the psuedo histories of the PLO official (or was he P.A.? I believe that was the person but am not sure) but, Jewish history, my own eyes, and other histories tell me that in fact you are wrong.

                      Anyway, now I am going to bed. Tomorrow I am getting up and probably not checking Daily Kos before Cardio and v-ball tryouts. So if you don't get a response... save your crickets.

                      I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                      by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 01:43:05 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  cute, but no cigar (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Brecht

                        i suppose you actually having a life also prevented you from responding to this comment addressed to you, posted while you were quite present, in fact you posted 13 times on your open thread within the hr on that same dairy. when i posted addressing you directly it was not buried in the least, evasion noted, rather cowardly of you if you asked me.

                        I am not going to that cesspool (my opinion) again. I read an interview there with a PLO official (I believe)... happily posted that posited that the Jews did not have a presence and was answered with something like "I am not an archelogist"

                        i believe he said I’m not a historian, over at tablet. ;)

                        that wouldn't that have been maen areikat, the same plo/pa official i heard interviewed at a guggenhime speaker event in san francisco would it? quite an impressive speaker. at least the crowd at the world affairs council seemed to think so. the recent interview @ tablet, are you going to call that a cess pool also? what about the guggenhime speaker events? cell pools too?

                        i addressed your attempts peddle this bullshit false meme once already, and now you're humping it again and dragging mondoweiss into it:

                        Just like claims Jews have (5+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                           JNEREBEL, arielle, MBNYC, Mets102, arcticken

                        no history on the land (a claim supported vociferously on Mondoweiss).

                        back it up or retract. you not wanting to enter a 'cess pool' won't get you out of this. phil weiss is a friend of mine. along w/adam horowitz they have created one of the most vital blogs about this conflict on the internet. you've made an extraordinary slanderous claim which has been rec'ced. it is a lie.

                        you go to your Cardio and v-ball tryouts and then then try getting your foot out of your mouth.

                        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                        by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 04:23:23 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  CRICKETS (0+ / 0-)

                          "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                          by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:22:48 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Just to clarify what my recs here mean: (0+ / 0-)

                          I take no sides in the personal part of this dispute. Happy Monday to you both.

                          I don't know Mondoweiss. I have seen it praised and condemned in different places. And I have noticed discussion of it here several times.
                          In fact, I bookmarked it about a week ago, but haven't looked any closer yet. I am passionately for free speech, so it is innocent until proven guilty with me.

                          I rec you, zannie, simply because you are fighting a lonely fight for what you believe in, with eloquence and tenacity. I rec you, volley, because I know your eloquence and tenacity too - and I refuse to take sides, for now. I guess if I were playing Solomon, you'd each get half a dead baby.

                          Now I must go outside and feed my crickets. I already hear them calling me. Perhaps you can hear them too?

                          "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

                          by Brecht on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 10:49:44 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  if someone says (0+ / 0-)

                            something is vociferously supported at a site they should at least have the balls to back it up. it's a flagrant lie that jews have no history on the land and a flagrant lie that idea would be supported (much less vociferously supported) on mondoweiss.

                            right now on the front page Goosebumps video links American sacrifices in civil rights struggle to Palestinian protesters’ travails

                            Obama’s political woes elicit advice from Israel (sans the usual middlemen)

                            Jewish Federations acknowledge Israel’s ‘paradigm shift,’ then circle the wagons

                            excellent, all of them. plus always great posts by adam. front paged now 'Upper West Side synagogue and Brooklyn Jewish Center to commemorate extremist Kahane' by alex kane, The reunification of my parents by Linah Alsaafin, My mother gave up her seat by Saleema Gul, Brooklyn-Jenin: Wars of the Jews by Udi Aloni, Second ‘Jewish Perspective on BDS’ event taking place next week by adam (horowitz, the awesome). there's an incredible post on turkey up right now plus another by ahdmed moor (excellent writer).

                            it's a great site, they're just jealous. one might think if it was as bad as they say it is they wouldn't have to make up a lie to smear it.

                            anyway thanks for your response.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 05:45:59 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  brecht (0+ / 0-)

                            i wanted to address something else you said and thank you again for the gracious way you've addressed me.

                            it isn't a lonely fight i'm fighting, not in the least. mondoweiss is a magnificently popular site. phil told me about 3-4 months ago it gets over 10,000 hits a day, i'm sure it's gone up since then. it's the go to site for all things palestine/israel. it's been singled out by the camera crowd (assuming you know who they are)along w/walt and mearsheimer (and somebody else i can't remember) as a massive threat to israel. the third link i just posted to you 'Jewish Federations acknowledge Israel’s ‘paradigm shift,’ then circle the wagons' elaborates on how seriously israel takes that threat.

                            upwards of 1/2 million hits a month (if it's not there yet it will be shortly) may not seem like a lot compared to a site like dkos, but then again dkos does not focuses primarily on i/p, mondoweiss does and he does it specifically from a jewish..perspective while opening encouraging and seeking palestinian and other arab voices and israeli voices too.

                            he recently traveled to palestine and israel and some of his posts about his trip are nothing short of stunning.

                            Nahla Assali and the assault on Palestinian dignity and Halper: American Jews (and the Congress) don’t want an Israel at peace are articles about conversations/interviews he had there, one w/halper/israeli (The Minnesota-born founder of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions) and one w/assali (palestinian royalty). the most heartbreaking :

                            Meet Atta Jabera farmer whose house outside Hebron has been destroyed four times by settlers but who rebuilds and hangs on, rarely leaving his property, because he has no choice but to defend his livelihood and ancestral lands for the sake of his children. Last week, Jeff Halper of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions took me down to the occupied hills to meet Jaber. You see him above, standing next to his half-plowed zucchini and tomato field, left. And just past the tomatoes you can see the gas station that the Jewish colony Kiryat Arba built on his stolen land, and a hillside beyond that with settler "outposts" on it (not visible in my pic; but erected this year, Jaber says, in complete defiance of the alleged freeze).

                            i'm not alone, at all, and there are others here who read the site and post on it.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:02:19 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

      •  Its clear the Tea Party (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elliott

        is probably not good for Israel... though again, we have to hope that they just line up and follow folks like Jim Demint and Newt Gingrich instead of folks like Ron Paul and Justin Amash.  it'll be interesting to watch.

        "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

        by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:22:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes I have wondered what to (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        arielle, MBNYC, Mets102

        call you One Staters. I think PEP is good.

        Let's see, the Palestinian polity voted for a group of Muslim fundamentalists, supports laws that make it a capital offense to sell property to Jews, and claim that Jews historically have no connection to the land oh and has a young population that has less of an interest in Western Style democracy than other forms of government.

        And you call us PEP?  

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:38:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ha Ha Ha. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        arielle, greatdarkspot, Mets102

        Don't talk about being Progressive when you, a) link a site where you can find the term ziocaine used in the comment threads, and b) see something good in Ron Paul.

        Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

        by MBNYC on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:57:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Rand Paul... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greatdarkspot

    ...is frightening.  But he has not adopted his father's position on Israel, and has taken steps to distance himself on that point.

    Whether he is sincere or not, I do not know.

    If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

    by JPhurst on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:06:14 AM PDT

    •  He hasn't adopted his father's (0+ / 0-)

      position on Israel... yet... But his political philosophy is generally the same and his supporters' websites are generally virulently anti-Israel.  It is clear to me that he's going to be a reliable anti-Israel voice in the Senate, whether he makes it his "issue" or not.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:10:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ugh (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Euroliberal, SulaymanF, Digdin

    Looking forward to your diary on how the pro equal rights for everyone in the Middle East candidates performed.

    •  I'm not sure (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greatdarkspot

      there are enough folks taking public positions on supporting rights for Jews in Iran or women's rights in Saudi Arabia to make that a worthwhile diary.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:20:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  J street (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht, capelza, corvo, Digdin

    Why the hatred of J Street? I'm sure you disagree with them, but I don't doubt for a moment that they have Israel's best interests at heart. Considering Israel itself is split on foreign policy issues, it's unhealthy for AIPAC and other organizations to reflexively endorse Likud and yisrael beiteinu policies, particularly when most American Jews agree with Peace Now.

    •  Because (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greatdarkspot

      the pro-Israel community has the most support when we're unified and bipartisan.  That way we can make factually truthful statements like Harry Reid, Mitch McConnell, Nancy Pelosi and John Boehner are all pro-Israel.

      You can't get those 4 to agree on anything.  But they all support Israel.  The rise of J Street and ECI on the left and right, threatens that unity.  If Israel becomes a partisan issue, in the end, it isn't good for Israel.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:23:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's your own fault (5+ / 0-)

        Maybe if you didn't turn a blind eye to what Israel is doing in the west bank and East Jerusalem, and stopped reflexively supporting Israel and demonizing those who dare to question the moral propriety of its actions, there wouldn't have been a need for J Street.

        "I've never believed that government's role is to create jobs . . . So this week, I've proposed a six year infrastructure plan."

        by Paleo on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:31:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Except that to me (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brecht, capelza, MBNYC, stevenaxelrod, Mets102

        supporting the occupation, rubber stamping YB's move to create a fascist state based on loyalty oaths started by Kach, and other adventures is not Pro-Israel.

        Pro-Israel means supporting the long term existence of a Jewish National State and homeland in the Middle East, in the land of our people's birth. Your support for Right wing policies is neither pro-Israel nor productive. However, unlike you - I would not call you (an opponent) not Pro-Israel. You just have a fucked up way of being Pro-Israel.

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:46:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Call it fucked up (0+ / 0-)

          but its the mainstream Jewish community position and the position of most of Congress.

          We all support a two-state solution.  The question is, are we the only country in the world that continues to support our closest ally in the region, or do we criticize Israel like the rest of the word so unfairly does on a regular basis?

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:48:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nope it's not mainstream. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, Mets102

            The J Street poll proves it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean crap. Deal.

            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:51:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A J Street poll (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              greatdarkspot

              conducted by a J Street board member and with loaded questions/analysis just isn't impartial.  Not sure why you don't get that.  Just like the ECI poll conducted by a Republican polling organization and with loaded questions/analysis just isn't impartial.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:55:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Really... Well please (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, Mets102

                tell me then how statiscally this is an invalid poll. Tell me how would YOU (there's that capitalization thing again) phrase questions so they weren't "Loaded". Please provide examples.

                Further, are you a marketing expert... I have an MBA in Marketing. I see one major flaw with the survey but not one that affects much of the outcome.

                Thanks in advance.

                I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:04:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not a pollster (0+ / 0-)

                  but I respect the opinion of pollsters--who point out the flaws of these types of issue-oriented biased polls.  They note that if you ask a question the right way, you can get just about any opinion you want.  For one, ask Nate Silver.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:14:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well if you are not a pollster (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    capelza, Mets102

                    then exactly what basis do you have for criticizing the J Street poll for

                    loaded questions/analysis

                    You admit no expertise but you are qualified to comment on questions and analysis? Interesting.

                    Again, you are the one charging the poll is invalid. You have to prove that specific charge. If you can't that is your problem not mine to answer.

                    Have fun.

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:23:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Here (0+ / 0-)

                      From Shmuel Rosner.  First googled link I got... now you can get others if you don't like this one.. because there are quotes from many pollsters out there.

                      http://cgis.jpost.com/...

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:26:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What some rightwing blogger (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        capelza, Mets102

                        on jpost.com who also said "Move on wrt Yitzhak Rabin's Memorial"... Did he breakdown J Street on ideological grounds? Yes. Did the full Fox News. Did he break them down on methodology? Nope.

                        You are going to have to find specifics mi amigo.

                        Sorry.

                        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:44:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Your boy Brad Burston (0+ / 0-)

                          used to work for the Jerusalem Post, too.  If you read his election columns, he is, for example, very anti-tea party.  His highest rated candidates last cycle were people like Hillary Clinton.  So he's far from a rightwing blogger.

                          Oh yeah, and did i mention that Shmuel Rosner has written for Ha'aretz, too?  

                          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 05:28:26 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  After more research (0+ / 0-)

                            his panel's top two candidates in 2006 were Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani.  I think few in the pro-Israel community would disagree.

                            His lowest candidate right now is Ron Paul.  I think few in the pro-Israel community would disagree with that either.  He's always given Obama relatively low ratings, but he's also always rated Biden quite highly.  Again, I think even loyal Democrats, off the record, would agree.

                            "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                            by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 05:35:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow can you say non-sequitor. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Mets102

                            Olberman used to work for Murdoch... SO....

                            Burston is anti-Tea Party? So am I.. what's your point.

                            Moshe Arens writes for Haaretz? And.....

                            I am judging your boy on what he wrote not who he writes for.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 06:06:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  J Street (0+ / 0-)

              J Street Polls make Ras look like an unbiased pollster.
              (fwiw, I trusted Ras' polls more than I should have this cycle.  I won't get fooled again.)

              Currently Top Ten in Slate's Lean/Lock game!

              by greatdarkspot on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:15:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  what the hell is "pro-Israel" anyway? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo

      I think a lot of people would think that pro-Israel means to fully support the fair treatment of Palestinians and the foundation of a Palestinian state, because that's the only way to get peace and for Israel to stop its ever further decline into moral depravity.  

      Since there are vastly different visions of where Israel's interests lie, this is a bizarre statemetn.  It is highly reminiscent of Repugs attempts to claim the mantle of "pro-American" on the theory that a plutocratic, theocratic, warmongering, bankrupt USA is the best state of affairs for the country. That is at best a debatable position

      I wish more people were thoughtful and honest but being outraged is too much fun I suppose

      by Guinho on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:31:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly... I don't totally agree with (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mets102

        with your first paragraph as I don't think Israel is a "morally depraved" nation. BUT... I think your overall comment is right.

        I made the same argument here

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:11:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yep! (0+ / 0-)

          We disagree on some things (terminology perhaps.  I think we can both agree that blowing up kids with rockets and collective punishment are wrong, and i'm willing to call the callous indifference to these harms morally depraved.  Of course, by that standard, there are few, if any countries, that aren't morally depraved in one way or another I suppose, once I really think about it)

          Still, I appreciate your being in these conversations.

          I wish more people were thoughtful and honest but being outraged is too much fun I suppose

          by Guinho on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:54:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Just so it's clear (12+ / 0-)

    OSD lists in the bad news column that "Justin Amash (R-MI) was elected," which is bad news for, among other reasons:

    he's Palestinian

    This is pure unmitigated racism.  OSD has forfeited any right to be outraged when someone reverses that racism and complains there are too many Jews in Congress or the Administration.  OSD's racism is the flip side of the same coin, with the only difference being that while racism against Jews is HRed, racism against Palestinians is perfectly acceptable.  

    "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

    by weasel on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:31:44 AM PDT

    •  Do you disagree (0+ / 0-)

      that a Palestinian Congressman is more likely to be anti-Israel than a non-Palestinian Congressman?  That's not racism, that's like QED.

      But I go further... I mention his ties to Ron Paul--who's as anti-Israel as you get--as evidence that he's likely not going to be a pro-Israel Palestinian Congressman, but rather, an anti-Israel Palestinian Congressman.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:33:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Given your comment... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MBNYC

      why did you uprate this comment:

      Bullshit (6+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      weasel, elliott, brasilaaron, Digdin, JesseCW, FrankCornish
      Hidden by:
      Mets102

      with this line:

      Steny Hoyer, an unicorporated subsidiary of AIPAC

      Congress shall make no law...

      by Mets102 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:36:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you honestly can't tell (5+ / 0-)

        a complaint about someone like Hoyer based on their positions and actions versus a complaint about Amash's race, then you have the same issues as OSD.  

        "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

        by weasel on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:40:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would donut the tip jar... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MBNYC

          but for the fact that I'm engaged in a fight with the diarist upthread and thus cannot donut him.

          And you can stop with the shifting of the goalposts. You uprated a comment which said that the number two Democrat in the United States House of Representatives is owned ("an unincorporated subsidiary") of one of the major pro-Israel organizations in the United States. Explain that.

          Congress shall make no law...

          by Mets102 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:48:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Final reply (5+ / 0-)
            The difference, which is painfully obvious, is that whereas OSD's complaint about Amash is his race, Paleo's complaint about Hoyer is his pro-AIPAC positions.  Paleo did not mention Hoyer's race, and since there are dozens of Jews in Congress that Paleo did not mention, it is an incredible stretch to find racism in Paleo's focus on Hoyer particularly.  Paleo did not explain all of Hoyer's positions, but like pretty much everyone who follows these issues, you already know he is extremely pro-AIPAC, and Paleo hardly needed to refresh your memory.

            You are playing the standard double game of pro-Israel folks: ignore racism against Palestinians, while stretching the concept of racism against Jews to the point where any criticism of pro-Israel politicians in considered racism.  

            Cheers.

            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

            by weasel on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:04:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  shocking! (0+ / 0-)

            the number two Democrat in the United States House of Representatives is owned ("an unincorporated subsidiary") of one of the major pro-Israel organizations in the United States.

            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

            by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:26:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You should be ashamed of yourself... (0+ / 0-)

              given your intentional misquoting and distortion. This is what is said in full, to provide a proper context:

              You [weasel] uprated a comment which said that the number two Democrat in the United States House of Representatives is owned ("an unincorporated subsidiary") of [sic, I should have said "by", and yes such silly and stupid grammatical errors on my part when caught in hindsight do make me cringe] one of the major pro-Israel organizations in the United States. Explain that.

              I cannot hide rate you for this behavior, however I cannot say if I would be disappointed if others decided to do so for your egregious behavior.

              Congress shall make no law...

              by Mets102 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:38:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "cannot say I would be..."*... (0+ / 0-)

                and there it happens again :-/

                Congress shall make no law...

                by Mets102 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:40:08 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  i copied pasted directly from the parent (0+ / 0-)

                if you don't like it blame yourself.

                "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 04:23:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Except that you knowingly... (0+ / 0-)

                  distorted what was said. You might have cut and pasted directly from the parent, but your behavior was inexcusable because you cut and pasted in such a manner as to misrepresent what was said.

                  Congress shall make no law...

                  by Mets102 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:51:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  roflmao (0+ / 0-)

                    you crack me up. i misrepresented nothing. btw, when i respond to your bloviation w/zzzzzzz it will mean you're boring me but right now i find your conniption fit highly amusing.

                    "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                    by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:08:05 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You might believe... (0+ / 0-)

                      that being concerned about someone calling a leading member of the United States House of Representatives "an unincorporated subsidiary" of AIPAC is humorous, but I do not. Similarly, I do not find anyone rec'ing/uprating that allegation humorous. It is a repetition of a meme that has been extremely dangerous for my people throughout history. That it received recs/uprates is absolutely disgusting and those that did so should be ashamed of themselves, just as you should be ashamed of yourself for your behavior in this thread.

                      Congress shall make no law...

                      by Mets102 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:22:57 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  dude (0+ / 0-)

                        wasn't that about hoyer? a leading member of the United States House of Representatives hardly suffices, he's house majority leader. that means he's the second most powerful person in the house but anyone who knows anything about the house majority leader knows they are subordinate to the speaker of the house ! PLUS subsidiaries are not people, they are companies, everyone knows that.

                        You might believe... (0+ / 0-)

                        that being concerned about someone calling a leading member of the United States House of Representatives "an unincorporated subsidiary" of AIPAC is humorous, but I do not.

                        oh me neither, in fact the record will show i was shocked.

                        perhaps you can help me out here while we're in conversation.

                        are you familiar w/any piece of legislation that's passed the house and senate over the last decade that might have upset aipac? something they opposed? thanks, i'm trying to gather a list of their failures.

                        assuming they have one. also can you think of anything that a majority of one party voted in favor of the other party didn't wrt an area of legislation concerning israel? i'm trying to see if there's a difference between the parties wrt their israel legislation. also, since both the parties representatives are so in favor of everything aipac wants anyway, why is aipac around? it would seem rather redundant to make such an effort and be such a powerful lobby if the vast majority of representatives in both houses are so pro israel. i can't quite wrap my head around that? with so many reps taking trips to israel every year due to their fabulous beaches and whatnot one might think it so clear we're just an incredibly pro israel nation so why have a lobby at all?

                        thanks! i'm sure once you provide me w/some legislation aipac was disappointed with i'll see the situation in a clearer light.

                        oh, and about those elections. since aipac doesn't direct funds to politicians what exactly do they do that makes such a difference wrt elections?

                        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                        by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 01:01:31 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

      •  Because IOKIYTP (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mets102

        weasel is right about his comment of OSD's characterization but he is dead wrong about uprating Paleo's comment.

        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

        by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:48:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And I probably should have just... (0+ / 0-)

          donutted the tip jar rather than engage in a fight over the PA Senate race. If, however, MB does come into this diary and says that such a donut of the tip jar would be acceptable despite my engaging in such fight, then I will drop the donut. As it is, I have reported the comment that weasel and others uprated.

          Congress shall make no law...

          by Mets102 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:50:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  He also called Cynthia McKinney an anti-semite. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo

      Criticize Israel, you're an anti-Semite.  The bar is pretty low these days. Ask J-Street.

      In other news.....
      http://www.haaretz.com/...

    •  You conveniently leave out (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mets102, arcticken

      the rest of what OSD said.

      Third, Justin Amash (R-MI) was elected.  While Amash hasn't publicly (to my knowledge) taken many anti-Israel positions, he's Palestinian, and more importantly [emph. added], he publicly seeks to be the next Ron Paul.  That can't be good for the pro-Israel community.  You just don't get more anti-Israel in the Republican party than Ron Paul.

      Clearly, OSD's emphasis isn't on Mr. Amash's ethnicity so much as on his questionable politics.

      Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

      by MBNYC on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:29:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Believe it or not, (5+ / 0-)

        but most people generally find that racism is unacceptable even if it not the most important reason someone takes a position.

        When in doubt, reverse your position and see if it still holds:

        "I dislike AIPAC, not just because they are mostly Jews, but mainly because they have questionable politics."

        It turns out, that statement is still racism even with the qualifier at the end.  Same with OSD.  

        "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

        by weasel on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:57:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Uh hum. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102, arcticken

          Forgive me, but I'm not buying it. First of all, 'Palestinian' is an ethnicity and not a race as the term is most commonly used. Second, there is a correlation between being Palestinian and not being pro-Israel; I think that's self-explanatory.

          And lastly, while I wouldn't have phrased the text as OSD did, and find it rather questionable, I'm going with Meteor Blades on this.

          Meanwhile, I again urge everyone to stop taking the most pernicious view of the words written here by people you disagree with while taking the most merciful view of the words written by people you agree with.

          The trope that's established itself in DKos I/P that everyone and their dog is a racist is pernicious, in my view. And I've decided to push back on it.

          Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

          by MBNYC on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:16:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  About time (5+ / 0-)

            The trope that's established itself in DKos I/P that everyone and their dog is a racist is pernicious, in my view. And I've decided to push back on it.

            About time you did.  Presumably you'll push back not just when someone is accused of being anti-Palestinian, but also of being anti-semitic.  

            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

            by weasel on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 01:47:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  There is no functional difference between.. (5+ / 0-)

            ...ethnocentrism and racism.  I cannot believe that you would rest on this point of all things.

            Second, to state that "there is a correlation between being Palestinian and not being pro-Israel" is loaded; if I said "there's a correlation between being Jewish and not being pro-Palestinian," there would be rabid posters spewing bile at me left and right.  

            Anyway, you can deem it racism or ethnocentrism or just extreme hatred and distrust of "the Other" for all I care; it is ugly and it is revealing that this attitude remains within bounds on this site.  No wonder some posters have vacated.  OSD did not refer at all to this man's position on Israel (he has not identified one), he simply asserted that his ethnicity and association with the Tea Party movement was cause for alarm.  We would never tolerate that stereotyping here with other ethnic minority groups.  And as a minority yourself, you really ought to be ashamed to offer apologetics in support of it.

            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

            by Alec82 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:15:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'll say it.. (0+ / 0-)

              There is a correlation between being Jewish and not being pro-Palestinian.

              Additionally, I went further than identifying him as a Tea Partyite.  He's not a Jim Demint or Sarah Palin Tea Partyite.  Not like they're great people or anything, but they're not anti-Israel.  Ron Paul is.  And he's a Ron Paul Tea Partyite.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 02:18:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  No. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mets102

              First of all, there is a gaping maw of a difference between ethnocentrism - or rather nationalism - and racism. If you'd ever been to France or for that matter England, for example, you'd know that. It trivializes the concept of racism to conflate the two.

              And as far as Jews and anti-Zionism is concerned, there seem to be a noticeable number of them. Certainly more that I'm aware of than the inverse.

              Lastly, as far as the cheap shot of my own minority status is concerned, it is one reason why I'm so strongly pro-Jewish. Jews and gays both are a minority everywhere in the world, including in our country. When you compare the mechanisms of oppression and the bigots that impose them, you'll find quite a few parallels.

              I see that, and it saddens me that you don't.

              Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

              by MBNYC on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 04:39:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Surprise, surprise. (0+ / 0-)

                You're the person who questioned the worth of Palestinian culture, who implied an Arab American victim of racism in Germany was a freeloader, and who has referred to me and others as "angry arabs [sic]".

                And now here you are defending oldskooldem for highlighting a politician's Palestinian ethnicity as a bad factor.

                Your words and actions towards Arabs and Muslims on this blog reek of racism, and you don't even know it. You talk about the mechanisms of oppression that Jews and gays face in this country. Well, guess what? There are plenty of parallels with what Arabs and Muslims face, too.

                "I see that, and it saddens me that you don't."

                Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                by unspeakable on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 01:20:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  For the record (0+ / 0-)

                  the fact that he's Palestinian is not a bad factor.  In fact, I'd love to have more pro-Israel Palestinians in Congress.  It would make our arguments so much better than we ever could.

                  "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                  by oldskooldem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 02:00:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you even actually read what you write (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie, Brecht, Mets102

                    or do you just wing it and lie constantly. You stated that Amash' background was an issue, and then you said here:

                    For the record the fact that he's Palestinian is not a bad factor.

                    Of course, above, in the body of the diary you wrote in the section titled BAD NEWS:...

                    Third, Justin Amash (R-MI) was elected.  While Amash hasn't publicly (to my knowledge) taken many anti-Israel positions, he's Palestinian,....

                    Whoops. Pop goes the weasel.....

                    I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                    by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 01:48:17 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Uhh (0+ / 0-)

                      you kinda chopped up my quote entirely, which is pretty fucking unfair.

                      The fact that he's from Michigan isn't bad news either.  But its in the bad news section.  Go figure.

                      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

                      by oldskooldem on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 05:01:35 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wow.... just wow... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie, Brecht, Mets102

                        This:

                        The fact that he's from Michigan isn't bad news either.  But its in the bad news section.  Go figure.

                        is pure unadulterated crap. Seriously. It is crap.

                        Saying Justin Amash (R-MI) is hardly the same as saying:

                        While Amash hasn't publicly (to my knowledge) taken many anti-Israel positions, he's Palestinian,....

                        His being Palestinian means what?

                        Instead of keeping digging just stop - let it go. But if you want to lie... no problem I can fight as long as you can.

                        I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                        by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:22:52 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  man up (0+ / 0-)

                          say volley, finished w/those Cardio and v-ball tryouts. gonna cop to callin mondo a cess pool when it was really tablet running areikat's interview?

                             Just like claims Jews have (5+ / 0-)

                             Recommended by:
                                JNEREBEL, arielle, MBNYC, Mets102, arcticken

                             no history on the land (a claim supported vociferously on Mondoweiss).

                          back up yer slander dude.

                          "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                          by zannie on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 07:48:27 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL you pest.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I just got home...

                            say volley, finished w/those Cardio and v-ball tryouts. gonna cop to callin mondo a cess pool when it was really tablet running areikat's interview?

                            what do you mean "cop to" calling Mondoweiss a cesspool... I did it and it is just that in my  opinion. Was I unclear the first time?

                            I am not ever going there again. But hey, I have an idea - why don't you make it your mission in life to follow me around talking about it.

                            Oh and btw... if anyone wants to go there and see this crap for themselves... Kol ha'Kavod, you are welcome to it. Have a fun time.

                            Oh and what is with the ridiculous language.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 09:54:47 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  your LYING (0+ / 0-)

                            when you claim Mondoweiss vociferously supports claims jews have no history on the land.

                            Just like claims Jews have (5+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                                 JNEREBEL, arielle, MBNYC, Mets102, arcticken

                              no history on the land (a claim supported vociferously on Mondoweiss).

                            stating you're never going back there doesn't get you out of that lie. having some memory of an interview that just so happens to have been on tablet just twists your story to hell and back.

                            i don't give a fuck if you call me a pest. i'm calling you a liar unless you care to retract your statement. you made a claim and got rec'd for it now back it up.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 07:10:35 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  amend: 'you're' LYING /nt (0+ / 0-)

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 07:12:23 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you're going to accuse volley... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber

                            you should at least get what you're accusing him of correct. Since this involves the written word, rather than the spoken word, it is not slander, but rather libel that you are accusing him of.

                            Congress shall make no law...

                            by Mets102 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 10:00:44 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that's (0+ / 0-)

                            bullshit. volley claimed the idea of jews having no history on the land was an idea vociferously supported on Mondoweiss.

                            that is an extraordinary claim, i believe a lie.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 04:17:29 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You can believe in the tooth (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            fairy for all I believe. There was an article talking about how Palestinians (as opposed to those tossed into exile) are the real descendents of the ancient Jews and the comments there "vociferously supported" that meme.

                            I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:06:12 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  'as opposed to' (0+ / 0-)

                            about how Palestinians (as opposed to those tossed into exile) are the real descendents of the ancient Jews

                            iow, you're claiming mondoweiss hosted an article claiming those tossed into exile were not real descendants of the ancient jews?

                            i think i will have to write phil about that extraordinary claim that you are too lilly-aghast to look up yourself.

                            in fact i think i will send him this exchange.

                            they had a totally open comment section for years, anyone could post anything including enemies of the site wishing to slander the site. as stephen walt pointed out on his rebuttal to camera if those who host blogs are responsible for every thing someone says in the comment section then haaretz and cnn should be equally responsible. after the massive bruhaha they started monitoring the comments months ago. either way, your claim of 'jews having no history on the land' is quite definitive and inflammatory, as you well know.

                            if you are referencing a conversation about sands let me remind you he is a professor of history at Tel Aviv University which makes him an employee of the state itself which does not imply anything other than apparently the state of israel likely doesn't  view his ideas are best relegated to a 'cess pool'.

                            and let me remind you it was also discussed on this site and last i heard discussing it was not against the rules AND there were people here who supported the book. so by your own standards the same could be said about this site.

                            My sense of a Jewish people, of a continuous culture and understanding, informs my actions to this day. While I married a non Jew and have many non Jewish friends, I have a certain sense of loyalty to Jews, as an embattled people. When I go to Israel I generally don't recognize the Israelis, who are as Shlomo Sand has said, a people, but I do recognize Ashkenazi Jews, be they Israelis or European.

                            This affinity is true even of some of my leftwing non Zionist friends. We occasionally look at one another and say, We are here not just out of devotion to human rights, but because we don’t want our people, the Jews to be hurt. In fact, we see our representation here in the Palestinian solidarity community, as proud Jews, as guarding against the thing we have always been warned about, that They are going to wipe us all out.

                            The belief that They are going to Wipe Us All Out, which is supported by history, to some degree, I can tell you is shared by many powerful Jews. They’ve told me so. Shmuel repeatedly urges people to give up trauma as a form of self-definition, but I can tell you that many people don't take his advice, they are embracing it. Lately a friend when I asked him why he’s a Zionist said, Because they are always going to rise up against us, at some time or place. I don't share that feeling, but there it is.  

                            if you're not interested in the conversations going on there so be it. but prancing around making unsourced inflammatory assertions about a site churning out a vast variety of ideas from a multi cultural crowd (i'm referencing the front page) because you don't like the comment section makes you the looser.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:23:39 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

  •  FL-22 (0+ / 0-)

    With regards Ron Klein, there is no question that he was a big friend of Israel.  However, at least on this issue, there was no loss with the election of West because he's actually even more pro-Israel than Klein was, if that's even possible.  And the optics of having a black veteran batting for Israel vs a Jewish guy - well, that's worth a few extra points, at least.
    This isn't any endorsement of the somewhat crazy West, of course, this only deals with the Israel part of it.
    As far as that goes, Rubio is very Pro-Israel as well, and is heading there next week.

    Currently Top Ten in Slate's Lean/Lock game!

    by greatdarkspot on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:04:58 PM PDT

    •  The Pro-Israel community (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greatdarkspot

      always supports pro-Israel incumbents.  That's fight club rule #1.  And the lack of support for Ron Klein by J Street and ECI is pathetic.  Its great that another pro-Israel Congressman was elected in that seat, but incumbents need to know that if they are pro-Israel, we will support them no matter what.  The idea of "more and better" doesn't apply to the pro-Israel community.  We are loyal and do (and should) stick by our friends.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:07:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't (0+ / 0-)

        I don't disagree, I'm just saying that West being elected is not bad news for Israel.  Not supporting Klein may have been bad tactics for sure, but the outcome on this issues is neutral at worst.
        On the other hand, the vets group that jumped in and supported Klein over West screwed itself so badly, it's being disbanded.

        Currently Top Ten in Slate's Lean/Lock game!

        by greatdarkspot on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:10:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd argue (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greatdarkspot

          that in the long-run, whenever any solidly pro-Israel Congressperson loses, it is bad for Israel, even when they're replaced by an equally (or even more) pro-Israel Congressperson.  I mean its not the worst news in the world--this Ron Paul stuff is.  But its not great for us.  

          The better question though is by what metric is Ron Klein not pro-Israel?  And if you believe he's pro-Israel (and I don't see how you can't), why the fuck didn't J Street and ECI endorse him?  

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:16:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why (0+ / 0-)

            I don't know what their thinking on it was.  He may not have solicited one - may well not have wanted one from either.  Many in that seat would have been put off by a J Street endorsement in particular.  As you say, ECI was endorsing pro-Israel Republicans against Democrats who they considered less friendly.  Had West been running against someone who signed the Gaza letter, I'm sure they would have jumped in but they were certainly not going to endorse against Klein.  
            So in short, ECI didn't endorse him because they are a GOP group and Klein probably didn't want J Street's endorsement.
            I totally agree that making Israel a partisan issue is a really bad thing.  I'd like to see both of these groups go away; I don't think either of them are good for Israel.  Fortunately, I think J Street has badly damaged themselves with the lies they have told and ECI exists mostly to counter J Street.  If one goes away, the other will probably follow.

            Currently Top Ten in Slate's Lean/Lock game!

            by greatdarkspot on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:26:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Totally right (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              greatdarkspot

              Re: ECI and J Street.  But I'd also say that both of those are disturbing.  ECI should become bipartisan and J Street should move to the center so that a pro-Israel candidate like Ron Klein can accept both of their donations without fear.  I'd rather those communities have a voice than disappear altogether.  But I'd rather they disappear than remain as they are.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:29:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Agree (0+ / 0-)

                On that, we agree.  I have never understood why some groups mix up two things.  To me, a perfect example of this are the groups that try to elect women.
                EMILY's List exists to support Dem women, fine, but only Pro-Choice ones.  They won't support a Pro-Life Dem woman - why not?  Just let your donors know who is where on the issue.
                The WISH list only supports Pro-Choice GOP women and the Susan B Anthony list only supports Pro-Life GOP women.  Why the hell not just support all women for your party?
                So here, these groups are making a partisan issue where one needn't be.  The Democratic party used to be the pro-Israel one, but the GOP has equaled it in recent decades.  That's a GOOD thing; don't screw it up by trying to say only one party is good for Israel.

                Currently Top Ten in Slate's Lean/Lock game!

                by greatdarkspot on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:42:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  This is a divisive diary in several ways (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht, capelza, Assaf, Terra Mystica

    In the name of bipartisanship it attempts to delegitimate American Jews who are critical of a counterproductive and inhumane Israeli government. It may be bipartisan in terms of Democrats and Republicans, but it is hardly bipartisan in terms of policy differences among Jews. It shows no respect for Jews who disagree with current Israeli policy. And, moreover, it reveals an unworthy bias against Palestinian Americans.

    This diary recirculates attitudes from the 1950s that no longer work. By trying to shut down any critique of current Israeli policy and by allowing Israeli nationalism to trump all other allegiances, it moves us away from a resolution to the I-P crisis and, despite its intentions, away from a viable Israel.

    The diary takes us down a blind alley.

    •  Thanks for your comments (0+ / 0-)

      steven.  The diary is merely intended to describe the election from a pro-Israel perspective.  It makes no attempt to describe the election from an anti-Israel or even from a neutral perspective.  I fully admit that.  

      Moreover, it is not nuanced.  It makes no attempt, for example, to analyze the success percentages of candidates with pro-Israel position papers.  Instead, it seeks to uncover general trends, including the disturbing increase in partisan pro-Israel PACs.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:21:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Diarist: Stop distorting the term "pro-Israel" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Paul in Berkeley, capelza, corvo

    And stop calling everyone whose opinions on Israel you disagree with (on right or left) "anti-Israel".

    A more adequate and neutral definition of the stance on Israel that you support would be "pro-status-quo on Israel".

    Other than that, this was a classic domestic-issues election. No foreign-policy related lobby could have moved any election race this cycle in any direction.
    No matter how many words you dice and slice here, the analysis of 2010 outcomes by "which Israel-related lobby supported which candidate" is meaningless.

    This election was bad for Democrats in general and House Dems in particular. So no wonder that J-Street which pretty openly affiliates itself with Dems, didn't get electoral wins. That in itself proves nothing.

    One could debate the wisdom of going to bat against favored incumbents; given that J-Street is fighting an uphill battle anyway and had a long list of enemies from day one, the issue is not so clear-cut as you have the readers believe.

    And in any case, why would they heed the advice of a concern troll who opposes their core agenda?

    •  I don't (0+ / 0-)

      ask for J Street to heed my advice, nor do I want them to.  And the same goes for ECI.  Rather, I'd ask the Jewish community to support bipartisan pro-Israel PACs who support pro-Israel candidates like Harry Reid and Ron Klein.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:24:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There you are, still distorting "pro-Israel" (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Paul in Berkeley, capelza, corvo

        From my perspective as an Israeli gravely concerned about where my country has gone,

        since the 1990's AIPAC has been among the most damaging actors to Israel on both sides of the ocean. In terms of net effect, they have been worse for Israel than Hamas.

        The AIPACists' "Israel, Israel" chants don't fool me.

        For many of the AIPAC leaders this is a pure power fetish, a lobbyism game in which they want to pull strings and score touchdowns. Israel is just a pretext.

        In any case, there is zero self-reflection on AIPAC's part, on how come their amazing "successes" in the US seem to be correlated with bloodshed and degeneration in Israel-Palestine, and with Israel's continued spiral into the abyss.

        •  Its not a distortion (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          arcticken

          its what the mainstream Jewish community defines pro-Israel to be.

          I agree with you re: zero self-reflection yada yada.  That isn't what AIPAC and the pro-Israel community are about.  They're about supporting a strong, vibrant relationship between the democratically elected government of the US and the democratically elected government of its strongest ally, Israel.

          There are groups out there that claim to be pro-Israel but oppose foreign aid to Israel.  For example, the Zionist Freedom Alliance.  I do not think they are pro-Israel by the mainstream communal definition.

          "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

          by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:36:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly my point. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, corvo

            You, like AIPAC, conflate Israel with Israel's government.

            Just like the Bush Administration was not America, so the various governments that have disgraced the halls in Jerusalem this past decade, are not Israel.

            Just like the Republican party, they have become masters in channeling ordinary Israelis' hopes and fears in order to loot their futures. Over and over.

            If you want, you can call your stance "pro-Israeli-government". But that would not be right regarding AIPAC. Because I do recall a time when they stood up to an Israeli government.

            This was the Rabin government, during the Oslo process. AIPAC tried to get set up legislation on Jerusalem that would embarrass Rabin and possibly derail the entire process.

            So basically AIPAC is not even "pro-Israeli-government". Rather, it is either "pro-Occupation" or "pro-Israeli-nationalism". Take your pick.

            •  People bring that up (0+ / 0-)

              but there have been less than 5 real issues in the last 30 years where AIPAC has, as you say, stood up to the Israeli government.  And none has occurred anytime recently when communal 'rules' have been more concretely formed.  In addition, in each time where AIPAC and the Israeli government wanted different things, they were issues of broad consensus in the American Jewish community.  Finally, I'd note that one of those 5 times was that AIPAC stood for a 2 state solution long before the Israeli government did.

              "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

              by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 12:49:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Here's the thing about Harry Reid (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mets102

        I think he's a weakling, and one of the most pathetic people ever to hold the position of Senate Majority Leader. He caves at every possible opportunity.  If I were a Nevadan, however, I would hold my nose tightly shut and vote for him...not because of his position on Israel, but because his opponent was a batshit crazy dumbfuck Republican that would be an embarrassment to the human race and to anyone that has mastered the ability to walk upright and use their opposable thumbs.  

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 09:51:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This election was so very clearly (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    livosh1, arielle, capelza, Mets102

    not about Israel, or the Palestinians. This election was about the economy, and to some extent about the soul of America.

    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

    by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 09:48:01 PM PDT

    •  Yeah.. actually it had nothing to do (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Paul in Berkeley, livosh1, Mets102

      with I.P.

      I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

      by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 10:47:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with that... (0+ / 0-)

      And in fact, I say that the problem in taking an ECI or J Street endorsement isn't the fact that voters will flock the candidates en masse.  That isn't the case in the overwhelming majority of districts.

      The problem with taking one of these partisan endorsements is that pro-Israel money from the other side will flock to your opponent.  It is much better to stay with one of the mainstream bipartisan PACs.

      "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." --Barack Obama, June, 2008

      by oldskooldem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:03:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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