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Obama does a back flip on outsourcing; IT/BPO industry relieved
At the press conference, Obama emphasised that trade in goods and services between the two countries is not a "one-way street" of American jobs and companies moving to India.

Unlike his 'Buffalo, not Bangalore' election rhetoric, Obama was eager to point out that even as some jobs left the US for India, other jobs were getting created there because of India.


Obama had recently increased visa fees for highly skilled workers on temporary posting in the US — costing Indian IT companies hundreds of millions of dollars collectively. But NASSCOM's Mittal was ready to let bygones be bygones if Obama stuck to his present stand.

"It has become an act, and we can live with it," he said.

There are two, IMHO very right-wing positions, being taken by our President in India.  First, he is saying that even though we have been losing jobs by the millions to India over the last decade or so, jobs are being created here too with some equivalence.

Where is the evidence of that, Mr. President?

Second, we are hearing, in this morning's MSNBC analysis of his speeches, that this trade relationship with India results in more people in India moving into the middle class and therefore creating a market for American goods there, with some overall benefit to the American economy.  And that all sounds pretty good, but...

Where is the evidence of that, Mr. President?

This kind of free market ideology, where average Americans suffer while large multi-national corporations increase their profits and do not reinvest in the US economy, is damaging to us, exacerbates the income inequality problem, and is not what I voted for. It's not even a true free market system anyway, it's a faux free market.  And where is the evidence that any of it turns out the way they say it will when they're convincing us to abandon our own best interests?  It might result in more wealth for the wealthiest as they obsessively exploit cheap global labor, but have we found one shred of evidence that it benefits the American lower and middle classes?  The only evidence I can point to as a result is the steady decline of organized labor and the destruction of the middle class.

Obama in India: U.S. offshoring fears are outdated
The perception that Indian call centers and back office operations cost U.S. jobs is an old stereotype that ignores today's reality that two-way trade between the U.S. and India is helping create jobs and raise the standard of living in both countries, U.S. President Barack Obama told a gathering of business executives in Mumbai on Saturday.

Losing good jobs through outsourcing and providing tax benefits to companies who send those jobs overseas is an old stereotype and outdated thinking?

President Obama said his objective was to create jobs in the U.S., and to rebuild the country's economy, but it would not be at the expense of the creation of jobs in other countries. The U.S. will instead discover, create and build products that are sold all over the world, he said.

What??  Is this the same guy who just toured the country doing stump speeches about Jobs Jobs Jobs?

I have some experience in this arena.  I've watched the IT field be obliterated over the last ten years.  And I don't see the people who were asked to train others (who will work for a small fraction of the cost) getting any new and better jobs here in the US as a result.  I haven't seen any new field open up for these people after some retraining.  And I certainly haven't seen any increase in manufacturing in the United States in order to satisfy the demands of this burgeoning Indian middle class.

They're going to buy more of our goods?  Really?

We don't even buy more of our goods.  We don't even make most of our goods.  And I don't see that changing any time in the near future, do you?  Have you tried to buy American lately?  

We don't even recycle our own glass and plastics anymore in my town.  We ship them to China.

The last time one of our Presidents went to India we gave away nuclear technology and got... mangoes.

Now we have a President in India reassuring them that we won't do anything to stop encouraging outsourcing of more American jobs, after he just spent the past month promising the American people that he'd focus on jobs, that he understood their pain.  

I guess it's kind of like how he was against East Coast offshore drilling, before he was for it, before he reconsidered, until he reconsiders again.  Or maybe, most of the time, his position just depends on who he's talking to at the moment.

This is not the change that I voted for.  I don't know about you, but I'm really tired of this.  I mean I'm really tired of this.  I will be curious to see what the AFL-CIO's response to this will be, if any.

Who benefits from these kinds of policies?  Who benefits?  Do you benefit?  I know that I don't.  My kids don't.  My neighbors don't.

And really, where are these jobs that replaced all of the solid, IT jobs we've lost in the past decade, Mr. President?  Where are they?  Where is this equivalence?  You really must think that we've all just fallen off of a turnip truck.

Prime Minister Singh, too, pointed out that shipping low-end jobs to India helped US firms make more profits, which in turn helped
them to create new, high-end jobs in the US.

With all due respect, Prime Minister, that's a load of crap.

As Mr. Mittal, chief of India's powerful National Association of Software and Services Companies (NASSCOM) said:

It has become an act, and we can live with it.

Yes, not surprisingly, he can live with it.  Me?  I can't.

Protecting American jobs is never outdated thinking.  Full employment, keeping the best interests of your own people first and doing your best to make sure that they can earn a living, and Fair trade is never an old stereotype.

Originally posted to joanneleon on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:23 AM PST.


Are we going in the right direction or wrong direction re: outsourcing?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Just one more flip-flop (8+ / 0-)

    I have lost count.  Although there's sufficient nuance in this one to possibly qualify it for a quasi flip-flop.

    "I've never believed that government's role is to create jobs . . . So this week, I've proposed a six year infrastructure plan."

    by Paleo on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:28:26 AM PST

  •  Oh, jeez, another one? (12+ / 0-)

    How much more rhetorical support can the American middle class take?

    We don't need a third party. We need a second party.

    by obiterdictum on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:30:02 AM PST

  •  Good post (26+ / 0-)

    Obama have such a horrible answer last night on 60 minutes when he was asked about his being "anti-business." He should've said the charge is ridiculous and business leaders are just whining because they're used to get everything they want, and because they're trying to preserve their absurd profits. Something like that. Instead he said he needed to repair relations or some shit.

    Obama wants bipartisan agreement? Here you go.

    A new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll shows that 69 percent of Americans believe free trade agreements with other countries have cost jobs in the United States, while just 18 percent believe they have created jobs. A 53 percent majority—up from 46 percent three years ago and 30 percent in 1999—believes that trade agreements have hurt the nation overall...While 65 percent of union members say free trade has hurt the U.S., so do 61 percent of Tea Party sympathizers.

  •  So the program he talks about to DOUBLE exports (7+ / 0-)

    doesn't count?

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White

    by zenbassoon on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:35:07 AM PST

    •  Nope (7+ / 0-)

      Not unless he can specify what exports he's talking about.

      •  Here are some of the specifics... (6+ / 0-)

        We would be just a little bit closer to world peace if everyone would just grow some f-ing skin!

        by Subversive on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:40:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Other than Boeing sales (10+ / 0-)

          your list is miniscule.  And it appears the U.S. is lending India the cash to pay for a lot of it.  What a deal.

          •  Boeing has been a key exporter for some time. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rick, badger, joanneleon, esquimaux, m00finsan

            It is our token exporter, unfortunately, many of those airplane parts are produced overseas.

            "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

            by lakehillsliberal on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:16:29 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That is the case with global manufacturing (0+ / 0-)

              If you want to make that arguement, I can immediately reduce the value of Chinese exports, many of which contain mostly or only labor added value with most of the value in components imported and then re-exported.

              But that is not how trade figures are accounted.

              What about my Daughter's future?

              by koNko on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:39:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Utter Scam (4+ / 0-)

            Indeed!   Ex-Im Bank is loaning the Indians money at below market rates so that they can then buy products and services at market-set negotiated prices and we're supposed to think that this is a great deal.  All that we've done is lowered the total-cost for the projects.  We're not getting any sort of unusual deal at all.  It's easy to sell at the lowest cost.  Just how have the Indians shown any preference for the American products and services when they're being incentivized to buy them anyway?  This is an utter scam, redolent of the Cold War days.

            "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

            by PrahaPartizan on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:33:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I forget what the amount is... (8+ / 0-)

          but boeing only does assembly. The vast percentage of their parts are bought overseas. Boeing gave up on fabrication here in the US decades ago.

          We need to be STRONG because Obama is not.

          by papicek on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:47:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  are we going to be purity trolls (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            about jobs, keeping assembly jobs isn't worth it if we don't also have fabrication jobs?  Might as well ship another 50,000 jobs overseas as they aren't the right kind of jobs?  They probably still beat 'greeter at Walmart' and asking 'do you want fries with that' as jobs that support families.

            So he is the great disappointer for a significant portion of the left.   Are you ready to sell out anything he does get because of that disappointment?  Should he stay home and not try to negotiate for whatever positives he can?

            And will he make greater headway with the Indian government if he publicly starts a trade war?  'Diplomacy' requires being diplomatic for a reason.

            We as a nation haven't had the political will to strike out at the corporate masters or even the good common sense to see that we need to.   So we should blame India for not putting us first, blame them for that which we will not do for ourselves?   Who on earth hasn't been abused or misused by US, who owes us that kind of care?   We need to learn to ask nicely and play nicely with others.  Isn't that one of the greatest criticisms of Bush, international cowboy, tin god syndrome?

            •  I think that the point was really very simple (6+ / 0-)

              All of that contract money doesn't translate into American jobs.  Some of it goes to purchase components that are built in other countries.

              •  Nothing special about that. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                The same can be said for a lot of the products made everywhere, particularly low-labor cost countries.

                Components made in the US, Japan, Taiwan and Kora shipped to China or Vietnam for low cost assembly, tI'm willing to bet the ration of imported content is much higher than a Boeing plane where many of the most expensive components such as engines and elctronics are made in the USA.

                What about my Daughter's future?

                by koNko on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:44:26 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I appreciate that you like to defend China (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joanneleon, koNko, anarchyintheusa

                  but the balance of trade deficit says you're largely wrong.

                  And most of the cost of avionics is in electronic components, many of which are now made in China, or made in other low wage countries around the world. The assembly here (if it actually takes place here - there are large military and aerospace contract manufacturers in Mexico that I sell to, and probably in other countries as well) is a small amount of value added.

                  If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

                  by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 10:04:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do we have any numbers? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    I work in the electronics field (semiconductors) and I'm very familliar with the global supply chains of the indusry. With few exceptions (some very simple products) electronic products are the sum of material and parts from multiple nations and it has been that way since before I entered the industry in the 1980's, by which time places such as Japan (I work for a Japanese company), Singapore, Indonesia, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Korea were doing the grunt work of labor intensive component manufacturing, and as they moved up the value chain ultimately they moved from components to product design (in the case of Japan they always did both).

                    To my knowledge, from at least the early 1970s American and European companies were operating in these places and, I would add, not only importing components but brains; look at the names on pantents from most American or European electronic companies andyou will find pleanty of Chinese, Japanese, Indian or Korean names and these people contributed very much to the IP value of what was and is manufactured in the US.

                    Anyone who doubts this lacks information.

                    From the mid 1980s, with the commoditization of electronics, contract manufacturers started taking over the assembly starting the great "race to the bottom" which is what ultimately gutted the Blue Collar jobs from the US which, frankly, no one in the political rhelm cared about until the White Collar jobs started to bleed.

                    It happened for various reasons, but perhaps the most importiant reason was government policy that made capital investment in this capital0intensive industry a losing proposition, not because Chinese "Slaves" are stealing American jobs as many people here claim. Other reasons are that American companies were/are good at inventing and designing but not as good at manufacturing quality (enter Japan) and very often not really interested in making consumer products given the high profit margins available for Military products (Eisenhower was right about the effects of the Military-Industrial Complex).

                    So I will speak for what I know. If the issue is the value of a product ultimately prodced in country A or B, it's a complex accounting excersiae because, as I stated, nearly all these products are the aggregate of materials and parts from around the world.

                    I don't work for Boeing so I can't say how the value of parts in a plane are distributed. I do know that for the "Dreamliner" Boeing definately took a virtual enterprise approach so I don't doubt a significant fraction of the value is in imported parts of sub-assemblies, if you can hang a number on that I would accept it.

                    As for the manufacturing situation in the US, I think it's foolish and deplorable. The US government does little to attract manufacturing back to the US (and that is whatis required, not penalization of others who do good job) and when it does it's often a misguided attempt to heard cow back into barn door that has been open for decades.

                    Do you want to know why I am dissapointed in the election result? Because it's likely to set-back what the US should be working full bore on, to build mass-transit and clean energy industries that could really revitalize the economy and rebuild industry. If Germany can do it, I see no reason why the US cannot except for political inertia. Read some green diaries on Kos and you will find my comments, I'm an advocate not a detractor. If I tell people to speed it up and to understand these industries are already global, it's not to defend anyone but simply advise them of the facts and suggest they get moving before the opportunity is lost.

                    This is an American problem to solve and unfortunately one where Obama is strugling to do his best with a pittance; I think lots of people here really have no idea how much effort his administration is making and what a steep up-hill climb it is, he gets zero credit because it's so much more fun to piss and moan.

                    My point was not to defend India or China but simply to explain the facts, which apperently we aggree on.

                    Anyway, appreciate your comments.

                    What about my Daughter's future?

                    by koNko on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 05:02:36 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Boeing imports... (0+ / 0-)

                  major fuselage components (Japan), and almost all it's avionics (China). Engines are made in the US, though I know lots less about the amount of domestic content in Pratt and Whitney or GE engines.

                  Speaking of domestic content, there used to be federal requirements for domestic content in manufactured goods made in the US (yes, the label matters). Over the years these requirements were whittled down under pressure from lobbyists and republicans. IIRC, domestic content in US cars was reduced to 15% under Bill Clinton.

                  "Working across the aisle" in action.

                  I'm not aware of any domestic requirement regulations in force today.

                  Dengre's focus on CNMI is all about domestic content and that "Made In The USA" label. Congress has whittled domestic content requirements down so far that completed shirts, made in China, can qualify for that label if one button is sewn on in Saipan. I don't know if they get to sewn the "Made In The USA" label in China or not.

                  It's conceivable.

                  We need to be STRONG because Obama is not.

                  by papicek on Tue Nov 09, 2010 at 08:05:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  other than a few small locally (0+ / 0-)

                owned and operated firms that are more on the level of handicrafts, no companies spend all of the money on items manufactured in the US when they get a contract.  The time when we manufactured the majority of what we consumed disappeared a while back.  

                So whenever we sell anything overseas, chances are not all of the money represents spending on items manufactured solely in the US, even agricultural crops tend to represent costs in foreign made equipment and even fertilizer, pesticide, etc.

                So again, do we devalue a trade contract for products created with American labor because its not 100% American?   What will we sell if that is the case?  Its simply not a useful critique of the trade deal to say that some of the value passes through to foreign entities.  The sun still rises in the east.

            •  ok I'll bite... (0+ / 0-)

              fabrication matters, it matters a LOT. Fabrication is where ALMOST ALL the engineering is focused (with ease of assembly and fitness for purpose in mind).

              Fabrication requires RAW MATERIALS - more jobs; hell, more INDUSTRIES (extraction, refining and transport).

              Fabrication builds transferable skills, the ability to make something well is transferable from one product line to many others - this is a mindset which took me personally years to develop, and once you've got it (and only 1 in 5, in my experience managed to make that leap), you've a tremendous asset with benefits to anyone who later hires you (and anyone who later buys whatever you make).

              Assembly doesn't generate nearly the related jobs, business and investment that fabrication does.

              And if you want to conflate my comment with Obama, whom I didn't mention, I'll bite: When people try to tell me what his accomplishments are, many of which I know to be window-dressing or deeply flawed. I'll speak up, damned right I'll speak up.

              If you think I'll accept the bullshit spin from democrats and kossacks any more than I'll tea bagger madness, then you need to take your meds.

              We need to be STRONG because Obama is not.

              by papicek on Tue Nov 09, 2010 at 07:50:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Let's see the numbers (6+ / 0-)

      Have you seen any signs of exploding exports of US goods?

      For examply, when you double exports from $100 to $200 you are indeed doubling exports but where is the accurate analysis of what we've gained and what we've lost?

  •  One question ... (2+ / 0-)

    is whether you'd rather have American companies shipping programming jobs to India or American companies hiring Indian companies to do their programming for them. Which one is better for the U.S. (because if there's cheap labor overseas, it's going to end up doing the work one way or another).

  •  Hmmm (9+ / 0-)

    I thought most of the jobs lost in the crash were construction jobs which
    by their nature can't be outsourced. I thought Obama also passed a Fin. Reg. bill with provisions to make derivatives trading more transparent, and to strengthen oversight of banks.  I thought such protections were designed to protect American jobs among other things.

    I also thought Obama was strongly in favor of infrastructure spending which would create the kinds of jobs that can't be outsourced.

    But why consider such facts when it's much more useful to entertain ourselves with the fiction that a sound bite constitutes a comprehensive policy outlook?

    It's much easier and more viscerally satisfying to entertain protectionist fantasies that brown people have taken American jobs than it is to actually consider the harder challenge of improving our education system to better prepare us to compete with workers from the burgeoning economies of India, China, Brazil, etc.  

    Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

    by fou on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:40:26 AM PST

    •  How much education does it take (12+ / 0-)

      to get $1 an hour pay?

    •  Why should there be competition of this sort? (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rick, joanneleon, bigchin, m00finsan, turn blue

      The system hasn't been thought out very well, at least, not with resource depletion, population growth and the welfare of the world's population in mind.

      I guess in the end, I am a malthusian who thinks it's long past due to address our demographic realities, too many people, not enough jobs being made redundant with advances in technology.

      What does the future hold?

      Competition of the most penurious and stultifying sort :-/

      (-9,-9) pragmatic incrementalist :-P

      by Enterik on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:54:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps (14+ / 0-)

      But the outsourcing of IT began more than a decade ago.  Back then, the spin was that the "crap" programming jobs would be the only ones outsourced and the "brain power" jobs would remain.  Time ultimately proved that to be completely false.  Now a number of well-paying professions are seeing more and more of their foundation outshored.  Medical records like X-rays and CAT Scans are read overseas more and more; other types of testing is feeling the pressure as well.  Hell, even law is being outsourced as much as it can be, with pretty much the work that would have normally gone to young lawyers needing to learn how to practice (law school doesn't actually teach you that in most cases) now shipped out to Indian law firms -- all with the blessing of the ABA.  

      I don't think anyone is accusing "brown people of taking American jobs."  Mostly because those folks are not in charge of the process and, thus, don't "take" anything.  OTOH, they are being given those jobs, by those actually in a position to make those types of financial decisions.

      And education can't stop that.  Unless you're going to re-educate folks to change bedpans or build bridges and other things that require hands on interaction with the clients, because any other type of work (whether "high end" or not) can and is being outsourced more and more every day.

      If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

      by shanikka on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:55:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well .. (0+ / 0-)

        I really can't understand how pretending that resentment over offshore IT jobs is going to solve anything.  Of course it won't be easy, but Americans have no choice to adapt to globalization.  I don't think protectionism is the way to do that.

        Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

        by fou on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:23:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Agree (6+ / 0-)

          Resentment doesn't change the law, or the financial incentives one iota.  And I do believe that Americans do have to adapt to globalization, now.  The time to have done anything to ensure it wouldn't destroy the American dream, i.e. a standard of living for a full days work that one could count on if one just worked hard, was 10 years ago.  It is almost certainly true that short of revolution, nothing will stop it, now.  But that doesn't mean it's worth just shrugging about, either.

          If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

          by shanikka on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:26:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  When you say (0+ / 0-)

          Americans are going to have no choice to adapt to globalization.

          What you are saying is that Americans with college degrees need to accept that they will never be able to afford to live in anything but hovels or tent cities again, that they will eat beans and rice cooked over a portable burner with no vegetables, meat or fruit to break up the monotony.

          Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you are saying "we" need to adapt you are saying that we need to accept that we will live on $1 an hour and die young because if it. It sounds like you're not volunteering to do the same.

      •  And here is the problem with all that, who do you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vacantlook, joanneleon

        sue when the CT is read wrong and a patient dies or the legal works results in a poor judgment because the overseas lawyers are not well versed in U.S. law or practices.  Garbage in, garbage out.  People are not being asked and they are being charged as if someone in the U.S. is handling this work.  It is malpractice pure and simple.

        "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

        by lakehillsliberal on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:32:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ah, the other propaganda line (15+ / 0-)

      that we don't have enough highly trained American workers so we have to import them or export our jobs.

      Funny that.  I wonder why so many IT workers have to train their replacements.

      •  How many jobs lost in the crash (0+ / 0-)

        were IT jobs that went to India versus American construction jobs that were propped up on fake money?  If you can't answer that question and the other questions I posed to you, then you have no business flatly suggesting, as this post does, that the President wants to outsource jobs.

        Globalization is a reality.  It's not going to go away simply because you're an American who feels she belongs at the front of the line any more than the "danged fence" will stop illegal immigration.

        If America wants to lead again, she has to produce more than she consumes.  Training Americans to compete by improving our education and opening foreign markets to American exports is the only way to get there.

        Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

        by fou on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:09:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Define 'the crash? (12+ / 0-)

          What is 'the crash' you're talking about?  America has been bleeding IT jobs for a decade, starting at the low end and working all the way up to full on systems analysts and project managers.  H1-B's and outsourcing aren't the product of any particular 'crash'.

          Wow, Independents put down the centrist Blue Dogs, and somehow liberals are to blame?

          by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:11:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ok (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            America has been bleeding IT jobs for a decade, starting at the low end and working all the way up to full on systems analysts and project managers.  H1-B's and outsourcing aren't the product of any particular 'crash'.

            Nevertheless, America maintained a relatively low unemployment rate throughout the last decade.  The loss of IT jobs didn't send the American labor market into a tail spin.  The Crash of '08 did.

            Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

            by fou on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:26:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What Greenspan did was create a bubble (6+ / 0-)

              in one sector of the economy in order to cover the ongoing drain of our jobs.  If they had not created the bubble, they would have had to start dealing with the problem in 2002 after the dot com crash.  Instead they created another bubble.

              "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

              by lakehillsliberal on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:34:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Right (0+ / 0-)

                but if the bleeding of IT jobs was severe enough to create the unemployment crisis we have now, the bubble that Greenspan created wouldn't have covered it.

                Listen, I'm not saying that the outsourcing of IT isn't a problem.  What I'm saying is that fixating on it to the exclusion of the structural and political problems we have here isn't going to solve anything.

                There are jobs that could have been created right here in America that have been nixed thanks to some the Republican governors that have taken power.  Christie nixed a tunnel project in NJ, the Gov-elect of Wisconsin nixed a high speed rail project, as the did the Gov-elect of Ohio.  Those jobs were to have been financed with the stimulus money that our "outsourcing" President won through Congress.

                So, what's more useful?  Griping about a sound bite, or thinking about how to solve problems?

                Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

                by fou on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:43:43 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  fou, this wasn't a sound bite n/t (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                •  When you start thinking about solving problems (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joanneleon, anarchyintheusa

                  let us know. Rail in WI or NJ tunnels are short term jobs that produce infrastructure, not exportable goods.

                  Despite your complaint about ignoring structural and political problems related to unemployment, you, and Obama, have absolutely nothing to say about those topics.

                  And it isn't just the bleeding of IT jobs, and it didn't start 2 years ago. It was going on in 1980, when I toured an empty TV plant looking for usable equipment for my employer (who was later bought by a German company and shut down). It's been going on as the machine-tool industry in this country has been dying since the mid-1980s, since machinists and tool and die makers are out of work as their jobs have been off-shored. It's going on in electronics industry, aircraft industry, automotive, call-centers, law, medicine, agriculture, and virtually every field you can name.

                  So it's not like this is something new that Obama or you, if either of you had a clue, couldn't have foreseen 30 years ago (and actually it was obvious long before that). You're just happy to continue to ignore the problem.

                  How are you, or Obama, going to solve it?

                  If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

                  by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 10:47:58 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Wait until it's your job, fou (9+ / 0-)

          and then maybe you'll suddenly become enlightened, and you'll see that it has nothing to do with skin color.

          •  Respectfully, Joan (0+ / 0-)

            I don't think the distortion of a sound bite helps further the national discussion we're having about how we fix this mess.  I just don't think that helps anyone win a job. That was my objection to your post.  

            The cold, hard fact is no one is going to hand it to us.  Not this President, not Republicans, not anybody.  Forgive me, but I think it's more useful to think about ways we can help each other survive.

            Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

            by fou on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:37:12 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  These were not sound bites (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              vacantlook, anarchyintheusa

              they were speeches and press conferences in India where our President was discussing the future of our trade policy, and indicating his beliefs and philosophy of same.

              With all due respect, you cannot honestly shake this off as just a sound bite.

              And fou, fighting for fair trade policies, respect for the American worker is a way of helping each other survive.  

              Forgive me, but I think it's more useful to think about ways we can help each other survive.

              This is all part of the income inequality debacle that's hurting the vast majority of Americans.  If we don't stick together, and show some solidarity, who will stand up for us?

            •  The cold hard fact (0+ / 0-)

              is that you are telling us to take a huge paycut well under the poverty line that you don't seem to have taken. That is no distortion. You are hiding behind that fact to lecture to use that we need to make sacrifices you are not willing to make.

        •  Just curious (0+ / 0-)

          How much less than minimum wage are you willing to accept, since you seem to be feeling you are not one of us greedy workers who wants a roof over our heads and food on the table every day?

      •  I can tell you that in our company (0+ / 0-)

        The IT jobs that were lost were because we got more sophisticated.  We put in software that lets one tech handle more computers.  We standardized our processes so we could use one base image and drivers to deploy to multiple types of machines.  We finished setting up a DFS infrastructure to share packages.

        We created a matrix organization so we have actual experts handling our mail and SQL and server farms.

        Not all job loss is due to some sinister brown-sourcing of jobs.  A lot of it is progress.

        We used to have one tech handle 50 computers.  Now one handles 140.  And the users are better supported.

        I have a lot of people still working for me and a lot who aren't.  The ones who aren't are the ones that didn't adapt to the new techs.

        Do you know how hard it is to find a good tailor for sackcloth and ashes?!

        by nightsweat on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:20:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Stop it with the (5+ / 0-)

          "brown-sourcing" comments that imply that this is some type of xenophobic or racist issue.  The issue here is not skin color.

          •  A lot of it is (0+ / 0-)

            Read the IT boards that go nuts about outsourcing.  You'll read a lot of crypto- and not so crypto racist bullshit.

            And that's coming from me, a big Northern European-ancestored white guy.

            Do you know how hard it is to find a good tailor for sackcloth and ashes?!

            by nightsweat on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:41:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  So because in some cases it's "progress" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joanneleon, anarchyintheusa

          we can just ignore the problem? After all, you still have a job, so it isn't even a problem, I guess.

          I'll agree that automation and various kinds of domestic out-sourcing are all part of the same rush to eliminate labor from every kind of enterprise to the extent possible.

          What are we going to do about the people - and there are lots of them - whose jobs have been eliminated? Let them starve?

          If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

          by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 10:57:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm saying you can't stand pat (0+ / 0-)

            Technologists, above all, should recognize that.  I've changed the type of technologist I am several times in my career.

            First I was a computer salesperson,
            then a phone tech support person,
            then a manager for a Mac database developer program
            then a Windows office technology support person,
            then a network guy
            then a programmer for PROGRESS DBMS
            then back to a network guy and manager
            then several levels of management which included learning messaging, multiple networking platforms, internet technologies, old-style PBX telephony, VOIP, OOP, project management, and now I'm learning finance and personnel management.

            You HAVE to be able to adapt.  That's not just going from one flavor of COBOL to the next.

            Most of the jobs I used to have don't exist anymore.

            I look at the Employment Outlook books the government publishes and they all say go into health care, go into technology.

            Do you know how hard it is to find a good tailor for sackcloth and ashes?!

            by nightsweat on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:39:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They may say go into health care (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GMary, anarchyintheusa

              but the top ten BLS projections for job creation didn't include any technological field (outside of health care) last time I looked (maybe that's my faulty memory, but I doubt it).

              In fact the top ten were exclusively in service industries as I recall, and a country whose economy is largely engaged in service industries is not a country whose economy is sustainable. There is little exportable product (or service) produced by service industries - in short, no wealth creation. You need to have wealth to buy all those products manufactured in other countries - you either do that by producing more wealth in products they're willing to buy, or you send them a little more of your declining capital every year (or increase debt - same thing).

              And in fact health care jobs are being exported as well, either through things like X-rays read by radiologists in India, or health care tourism. I have friends who have gone to Mexico for dental work or Taiwan for medical care, because even with the cost of travel, it nets out cheaper.

              You do have to adapt, and government, through an industrial policy or other means, could make that possible for large numbers of people. But I also know people who have adapted, only to have the industry they were adapting for disappear - in some cases before their 'adaptation' was complete.

              Nearly all of my income comes from a single business I've operated for 23 years, so I know a little about adaptation (I also had several other careers before that, including teaching other people acquiring new job skills). But the employment has to be there for someone to adapt into it. You got lucky, mostly, just like you were likely not to be killed in a hurricane, earthquake or on a battlefield. Not everybody is that lucky.

              I'm sure you worked hard to make each of those transitions possible. I'm just as sure that there are other people who worked just as hard as you or harder that didn't get the breaks that went along with your hard work.

              I think all that most people are asking for in this diary is for government to re-organize society in ways that make it less a roll of the dice to know that you'll be able to afford food and shelter next month or next year. That seems to me to be the reason we evolved social organization in the first place.

              If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

              by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 12:31:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Fou... (15+ / 0-)

      I've got a 135 IQ, 5 college degrees, a decade in the trenches actually getting software and hardware up and running that processes millions of dollars a year and handles hundreds of thousands of customers.

      And my job disappeared.  People with fewer degrees, less education, and, most importantly, able to charge far less, are now doing that work.

      You can't 'educate' me into being able to survive on 1/10 my prior wages, unless I move somewhere with a hellaciously lower cost of living.  Don't give us crap about education being the key to competing against people who charge 10% what you do.  It's absolutely delusional.

      Wow, Independents put down the centrist Blue Dogs, and somehow liberals are to blame?

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:01:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right ... (0+ / 0-)

        and your job disappeared simply because Bill Gates liked working with browner people?  It has nothing to do with the fact that the job you chose didn't require a 135 I.Q., or that technological advances such as the internet have made it possible for the kind of work you do to be done from anywhere?  

        I'm sorry to inform you that the world economy is an infinitely complex system that isn't necessarily going to reward your high I.Q.

        In any case, my quibble with this diary had more to do with the fact that the I felt the diarist irresponsibly suggested that this President wants to outsource jobs, and she did so without considering his remarks in the context of his legislative accomplishments or his other policy positions.  

        Of course outsourcing is a problem, but the solution isn't protectionism (which drives up the cost of U.S. exports, and which I submit, a person with a high I.Q. shouldn't need), nor is it screaming about a sound-bite as if it constitutes a comprehensive policy.

        Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

        by fou on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:18:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, he liked working with CHEAPER people. (13+ / 0-)

          Please stop trying to make this about racism.

          It's about corporatism and the screwing of the American worker.

          If you think it's about racisim, tell me what the unemployment rate is right now for African-Americans, especially those under 25?

          Some of those unemployed African-Americans lost jobs to people in...wait for it...India!

          "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

          by Brooke In Seattle on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:24:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  His job went away (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rick, badger, m00finsan, Ezekial 23 20

          because he works in an industry where there is no job loyalty on the part of employee or employer, and no permanence in markets. The only job security for someone in high tech is constant education combined with a willingness to start over as a way of life.

          The only truth that sustains me in these troubled times is that it's turtles all the way down.

          by mswaine on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:24:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The issue isn't training (6+ / 0-)

            or education.  The issue is being willing to work for less money than someone who lives in a third-world or nearly third-world country.

            •  So if I need to compete (0+ / 0-)

              with people in the third world, then slash my COLA to be more equitable.

              Seriously. I'll gladly stop whining about the threat to good paying jobs like IT when I can pay the same sort of rent somebody over in Bangalore pays.

              It's not like I want my salary so I can stockpile it or go on massive shopping binges. I'm not get ahead and I'm not living the high life.

              Same for many, many Americans.

              HERE'S WHAT I WANT -- it's simple. Just cut out the tax loopholes that provide incentives to hire offshore rather than in this country.  Just do that one thing, and I'll gladly continue to compete with people who can afford to make $5 an hour doing the same job I spent years of my life and a huge student loan to do.

              With unemployment (officially) hovering at 10% and in reality closer to 20%, we cannot afford tax incentives that subsidize offshoring.

        •  It's pretty clear (0+ / 0-)

          that the President does want to outsource jobs, and he doesn't understand the connection between policy and the people they affect one damned bit.

    •  Thank you for your support (12+ / 0-)

      of the race to the bottom.

      Our new corporate overlords applaud you!

    •  A million white-collar jobs (13+ / 0-)

      requiring a college degree or higher went away between 2007 and 2009.

      A vast number of them went to India.

      And they weren't made obsolete by advances in production. They were outsourced because it was cheaper to do so.

      And it wasn't just IT. It was legal work, journalism, accounting, publishing/editorial work, and similar fields whose work could be done far cheaper in India.

      We HAVE advanced degrees, so don't try and put this off on lack of an education, or that the fields are obsolete.

      No, it isn't just call center jobs that went there.

      And many of the call centers have realized that people in other countries reading from scripts IS NOT their idea of real customer service. My daughter works for such a company that brought their call center back to the USA because the customer service they were getting was substandard and the customers were going elsewhere.

      Why does someone always scream "racism!" when we complain about jobs going to India? I don't care what color or nationality the people are who took good American jobs. The fact is, they are the ones who are employed and we aren't. It isn't their race or nationality that makes us speak out against the wholesale shipping of our jobs to another country.

      "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

      by Brooke In Seattle on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:19:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Its a bad deal for US workers (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    badger, Shockwave, joanneleon, m00finsan

    After becoming US citizens the same Indian workers who came here through out sourcing totally turn against it.

  •  Obama was your empty vessel of change n/t (9+ / 0-)

    (-9,-9) pragmatic incrementalist :-P

    by Enterik on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:47:06 AM PST

    •  sadly true, and growing more so day by day (4+ / 0-)

      There is no resemblance left of President Obama to the candidate Obama.

      Daniel Ellsberg - "It was always a bad year to get out of Vietnam."

      by allenjo on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:01:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree, at least no my empty vessel... (0+ / 0-)

        ...words like change and hope can be a lot like patriotic and resolute. What they mean to the listener and the utterer are very likely different things. I try not to put too much stake in such vague words.

        As an avowed incrementalist, I appreciate the progress that has been made in the past two years especially in light of imaginary projections of what McCain might have done. Surely, I had hoped for more with regards to presentation and achievement. However, frequently in life I find that comparing to some ideal state or even slightly better state can be counterproductive.

        (-9,-9) pragmatic incrementalist :-P

        by Enterik on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:27:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  We Need Low Skill Jobs That Pay Well (13+ / 0-)

    in this country again. The free traders told us that all we had to do was be "re-trained" by going to college. There's few jobs for college graduates now. People shouldn't have to go to college to make money to live, they should go because they have interest in a certain field and want to work in it as a career. We need more money in the hands of regular people who, in turn, purchase services from doctors, attorneys, judo instructors, etc. The prosperity should rise up, not trickle down. If we keep out-sourcing, who will be left to buy these products?

    The political class in this country (Obama included) don't value manufacturing jobs that pay well because it's not something you have to go to Harvard to do. They value banking jobs more but all those guys do is move money around, they don't make a damn tangible thing!! This is why we're facing long-term high unemployment. The problems in our economy are structural.

    My back is spineless. My back is yellow. I am the American non-voter. -The Simpsons, Episode 2, Season 3, "Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington"

    by Aspe4 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:49:23 AM PST

    •  Trickle up economics... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aspe4, echatwa, m00finsan

      ...screw free trade, tax the rich, enact a living wage and watch the rich remain even more so.

      Miracle of miracles, demand, jobs, seconomic security.

      (-9,-9) pragmatic incrementalist :-P

      by Enterik on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:57:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's going to be hard (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      If it's a low-skill job, it's more cheaply done overseas or automated out of existence.  Our best future is in automating the low skill jobs away and figuring out what skills people who aren't going to be doctors have.

      Everyone has some skill set that could be used.

      What we shouldn't do is ignore automation and self-serve opportunities since those increase our productivity and potentially everyone's income.  We don't need 50 New Jerseys where you can't pump your own gas.

      Do you know how hard it is to find a good tailor for sackcloth and ashes?!

      by nightsweat on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:57:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The solution is not to value everything (9+ / 0-)

        absolutely in terms of dollar profit.

        Instead of exploiting the lowest possible labor overseas just so Bob the Billionaire can add another few million to his portfolio every year, hire Americans at American wages and let Bob have a few hundred thousand each year.

        Slash incentives to outsource, and give tax incentives to companies based on the number and quality of jobs they keep stateside.

        Wow, Independents put down the centrist Blue Dogs, and somehow liberals are to blame?

        by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:08:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's illegal. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Or at least, likely to get you sued. Yes, you read that right.  It is required of American Corporations (and most other Corporations in the world) that thye work to maximize shareholder value.

          If I'm a CEO and you want me to pay you $200,000 for work I can get done for $20,000 elsewhere, you'd better provide me with a hell of a compensating incentive so when my board sues me I have a leg to stand on.

          Do you know how hard it is to find a good tailor for sackcloth and ashes?!

          by nightsweat on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:24:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Only for publically traded companies, no? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            badger, anarchyintheusa

            Fiduciary duty only extends so far, and, quite frankly, is amoral and psychopathic, which is why corporations shouldn't be granted any sort of 'personhood' in the first place.

            Wow, Independents put down the centrist Blue Dogs, and somehow liberals are to blame?

            by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 10:10:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And your company will likely go bankrupt soon (0+ / 0-)

              if you pay employees a lot more than your competitors. There are some specific exceptions: for example, you need the production to be local to be more responsive to customers and have shorter lead time. Or you may need specialized skills from your employees.

              •  Which is why the US, for most of its existence (5+ / 0-)

                acted in protectionist fashion to artificially inflate the cost of the 'competition' with trade barriers, until the folks who had all the money finally managed to capture enough of the politicians to get 'Free Trade' bills passed that immediately undermined labor's ability to get paid a living wage.

                Wow, Independents put down the centrist Blue Dogs, and somehow liberals are to blame?

                by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:05:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Actually, it was US that pushed for free trade (0+ / 0-)

                  during and after WWII against British objections. At the time it was an advantage for US. And in general protectionism is a bad thing. Look how it's working out for North Korea.

                  •  North Korea? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Seriously, you want to take the most extreme nutcase state as your example?

                    Everything in moderation.

                    Wow, Independents put down the centrist Blue Dogs, and somehow liberals are to blame?

                    by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 02:45:41 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, it's an extreme example. But more moderate (0+ / 0-)

                      policies are not very different from the ones currently pursued. There are all kinds of possible programs that can help (programs similar to a German one when the government pays part of the salary to prevent layoffs sound good). Obama proposed some things along these lines this year but they all died. Next year will be even worse. Some measures against Chinese currency manipulation may help a bit (but really not that much).

                      •  Nothing's going to help against China. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        They've already thrown down the gauntlet by restricting sales of rare earth elements.  Unless we pander to them enough to get those restrictions lifted, we all better be looking at a more 'Amish' style of life, because a hell of a lot of the high tech out there is dependent upon REE, and China mines 97% of them.

                        Wow, Independents put down the centrist Blue Dogs, and somehow liberals are to blame?

                        by Ezekial 23 20 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 04:36:20 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Supplies of REE are actually huge, they are just (0+ / 0-)

                          not mined right now. Greenland has a lot of them, also Alaska and Australia. In fact, US REE mining industry simply shut down a couple of decades ago since you don't have to worry about these pesky environmental regulations in China. All these mines can be reopened or new ones started. Extraction costs will be higher but supply will be there.

          •  It's not illegal (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            for a company to take tax incentives to provide jobs in a particular location.  This is done all the time, by both privately held and publicly held corporations.

          •  I want you to fulfill your responsibilities (3+ / 0-)

            to the community, the nation, and the people who provide all of the infrastructure that enables and protects your enterprise.

            Instead of a "compensating incentive", how about if we withdraw the incentives we already provide to you - the infrastructure that underlies your ability to ship globally, the cops and firefighters who keep your buildings from burning down or being firebombed, the educational system that provides your employees, the financial system that insures your bank deposits, and all the other things you get essentially for free, that allow you to believe you "did it all yourself" and need to be left alone to maximize your profits.

            If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

            by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:05:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then you'll collapse the economy again (0+ / 0-)

              Corporations have run out of control but at their heart they are a necessary construct to allow great tasks and great organizations to be built without having a politically charged government project do it.

              We ought to be working on how to reform the corporation's relationship to society rather than waging war against them.

              Do you know how hard it is to find a good tailor for sackcloth and ashes?!

              by nightsweat on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:31:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree with that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                (except the economic collapse part) I'm not anti-corporate. I even was a C corporation for a few years. Now I'm just a partner in a WA State partnership and a TX LLC. I'm also not any flavor of collectivist - not in total, anyway.

                But corporations exist within society - in fact society grants the charter that allows them to exist. And if a society is expected to enable and nurture corporate kinds of behavior, then corporations, as members of society, have a reciprocal responsibility to enable and nurture society.

                That includes things like paying taxes, keeping an honest set of books, producing decent useful products or services, accepting liability for mistakes, and paying penalties for criminal behavior. It includes accepting liability for externalities, like pollution and CO2 emissions. And it includes providing safe, long-term, well-compensated employment for other members of the community, because we have evolved into a society where subsistence generally means wage-employment.

                If you don't want to accept those responsibilities, then you need to make a moral choice. You need to either forego the perquisites that corporate existence provides to you. Or you need to actively promote a new form of social organization in which all members of society can live decent lives, whether employed or not.

                Otherwise, you need to recognize that you advocate a society where a large number of people live in permanent poverty and misery to allow you to live a pleasant and rich life.

                If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

                by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 12:01:29 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Then we make it illegal to outsource. (5+ / 0-)

          This problem can be solved with sufficiently strong legislation, whether CEO's like it or not.

      •  Not even hard, impossible. It's essentially (0+ / 0-)

        make-work type of stuff where you pay people money for doing smth no one needs them to do.

        •  What's your alternative? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          esquimaux, anarchyintheusa

          Let a certain percentage of the population starve every year?

          Massive welfare payments, out of the taxes of wage-earners, so corporations can exercise their "right" to not provide jobs to the people in the communities that support them?

          If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

          by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 11:08:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Germany seems to do a relatively good job. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aspe4, nightsweat, joanneleon

            Strong unions that are willing to cooperate with employers, government paying a part of employee's salary if the employer agrees to keep them during the downturn, stuff like that. Make-work is welfare, might as well call it that and not pretend it's anything else.

            •  Interesting phrasing (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FG, anarchyintheusa

              How about turning it around to "employers that are willing to co-operate with strong unions"? "Government paying" means somebody paying more in taxes - who do you suggest should be doing that? Which politicians here are advocating that?

              Germany also has an extensive dole (somewhat reduced when the left-of-center SDP pushed Hartz IV, which basically destroyed the political left in Germany and put the conservatives in power), and still has, IIRC 7% unemployment, down from 13% or more in recent years. That's still paying people for not working.

              And which candidate(s) are you supporting who advocate similar arrangements here? Obama?

              If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the administration.

              by badger on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 12:42:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Just for the record (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, anarchyintheusa

        gas is cheaper in New Jersey, even though someone else pumps it.  When I drive across the bridge and pump it myself, it costs me more.

        So your example doesn't quite work there.

  •  Obama has shown to be submissive and meek (9+ / 0-)

    Is he just passively being manipulated into believing this crap, instead of pursuing his original message? Am I missing something here? This isn't the first time this President has done things causing such great concern (especially on the economy), in terms of submitting to this tired meme about globalization or supply-side economics (disparagingly known as Reaganomics, of course.) His actions have been equivalent to saying "Thank you, sir. May I have another?" without expressing even an iota of doubt or question. Oh we've been getting change alright: chump change.

    "To be a poor man is hard, but to be a poor race in a land of dollars is the very bottom of hardships." ~W.E.B. DuBois

    by rovertheoctopus on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 08:55:29 AM PST

  •  Fundamental to understanding international (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    freespeech, Lawrence, FG, Day24Day7, Tulips
    trade is what you lack here. We don't want to become islands in the world economy. That would be so 16th century! But we do want smart trade where our gains in labor, environmental and wage standards are not put at risk.

    So we do "outsource" some activities which creates income in India (and foreign exchange) which they use to buy our goods and services. And we still do make things even if you don't believe it.

    •  Not realizing most jobs are now being done the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ezekial 23 20, anarchyintheusa

      prison system for free labor. lets stop the out sourcing here with Americans.  We better keep a eyes open for privatizing prison , for free labor. Soothsayer99 did a excellent diary about the work prisoners are doing that could be done right here at home. modern day slavery.

    •  I have one question for you: (8+ / 0-)

      How has this been working out for us?

      Have you taken a look at real wages lately?

      Have you read about the productivity gains in this country and where their $ equivalents have gone?  Hint: Not to the working class.

      And you're wrong about the fact that I have no knowledge of international trade.  

    •  Where do you think that Indians will buy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      realtime, m00finsan, anarchyintheusa

      their goods and services?  From their own businesses?  From China?  From other countries in their region?  Or from the US?

      Really, other than weapons, what are they going to buy from us?

      •  weapons, GMO patents, negotiate less (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        corporate liabilities for Bopal like accidents.
        I am sure weapons purchases are a large part of Obama's jobs negotiation in India.

        from Democracy Now
        Big Business & Arms Deals, Not Poverty, Top Obama’s Agenda in India

        President Obama rounded off his three-day visit to India today by addressing a special joint session of both houses of India’s Parliament. Accompanied by some 250 business executives, the President’s visit to India is part of a ten-day tour of Asia to boost U.S. exports. Meanwhile a number of groups are protesting Obama’s visit to India, including some left political parties, survivors of the 1984 deadly Bhopal disaster, and the families of cotton farmers who committed suicide, partly as a result of U.S. agricultural subsidies.

        I also think that GMO agribusiness is another large part of his jobs bill, in spite of the number of Indian farmer suicides linked to GMO foods.  Also enforcing GMO copyright laws is sure to be negotiated.

        Activist: Farmer suicides in India linked to debt, globalization
        January 05, 2010|By George Lerner, CNN

        As a matter of interest because I don't know if it has been reported here.

        Big Lies, Little Lies
        Phantom Jobs


    •  Why should we outsource publishing? (9+ / 0-)

      Or legal work? Or accounting?

      Why can't these jobs stay in America and be done by Americans at living wages -- like they have been done for hundreds of years?

      Because some cheap bastard somewhere doesn't want to pay American workers when they can outsource the job to India and pocket big gains for themselves.

      We don't NEED to outsource those jobs. We NEED them back in this country to put American workers back to work and paying taxes to keep the system from collapsing.

      "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

      by Brooke In Seattle on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:30:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because it's cheaper. Any company that saves (0+ / 0-)

        money by outsourcing will have advantage over its competitors.

        •  How do you reconcile and/or justify (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          badger, esquimaux, anarchyintheusa

          the astronomical increases in executive pay?

          This isn't just about paying your workers less because you have to.  It's been accompanied by a huge difference between the salary of the average worker and the executives.  Why can't they trim a few million from their own salaries and be the company who is known for treating and paying their workers well.

          There have always been companies who are known for paying better than other companies and still remaining competitive.

          There are intangibles, you know, that come out of such policies, such as employee loyalty, less turnover, etc.  There was a time when a lot of Americans understood this.

          •  There are intangibles but I don't see how (0+ / 0-)

            you can legislate that. Yeah, good companies in any country routinely pay the employees above-average wage to attract the best. Executive compensation is a mess but it's a problem for shareholders (of course, it can be taxed at higher rate too...). Usually executive compensation is not a huge part of the company revenue anyway, especially for big companies. For example, CEO of McDonalds was paid 17 mln in 2009 but it only represented 0.077% of the company revenue.

          •  Btw, AFL-CIO says that the ratio of CEO salary to (0+ / 0-)

            the worker salary is down from its heights about 10 years ago and is now at the level of mid 90s.


  •  The march rightward (9+ / 0-)


    I am no longer a Democrat. Deal with it.

    by Jazzenterprises on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:01:55 AM PST

  •  William Greider of the Nation and (9+ / 0-)

    Costello state it much more eloquently than I could in analyzing our current state of economic delusion. If Obama refuses to drop his Neoliberal economic view he is gone. Maybe thats what he wants, hard to tell at this point.

  •  It's Unclear to Me How this Represents a Change (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    smkngman, anarchyintheusa

    Did he say we shouldn't try to keep jobs in the United States?

    Dear Wall Street: If you want to stop feeling like a piñata, stop stuffing yourself with our f#@$ing candy.

    by TooFolkGR on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:06:03 AM PST

  •  I get my hip boots on every time I hear him (7+ / 0-)

    speak anymore. I'll need a snorkel pretty soon.

    New improved bipartisanship! Now comes in a convenient suppository!!! -unbozo

    by Unbozo on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:11:13 AM PST

  •  Based on my direct knowledge of this subject... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    badger, smkngman, esquimaux, Fossil

    ...I don't see any effort on the part of Indian companies to hire Americans for their operations even in the US.  I understand outsourcing some activities but even when it would make sense to hire Americans for the on site component of the on site-offshore outsourcing model, they don't do it.; an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:17:19 AM PST

  •  WashTech: a union for tech workers (6+ / 0-)

    It's beginning to look more and more like tech workers will really need to join unions.

    Here's one:

  •  First read... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    From NBC's Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, Ali Weinberg
    *** Obama in defeat: To us, the most striking part of President Obama’s "60 Minutes" interview was his admission that that he and his administration didn’t compromise and work with the Republicans. It was an admission of defeat. "In terms of setting the tone and how this town operates, we just didn't pay enough attention to some of the things that we had talked about," he said. "And, you know I'm paying a political price for that." Yet while Obama and the Democrats didn’t get results in votes, they did get results in policy. After all, if you’re getting Ben Nelson to support a piece of legislation, that means that 5-10 Senate Republicans -- at least in their gut -- could have accepted it. What happened to the president was that he was out-maneuvered by the Senate GOP, and he did a poor job of trying to find five to 10 Republicans to support his legislation. Maybe that's a White House problem; maybe it was a Senate problem; maybe it was the burden of 59, then 60 seats, then 59 seats. But what is amazing is how so easily the president let narratives -- which the White House press shop fights BEHIND the scenes -- get treated as the story.

    "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

    by justmy2 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:41:07 AM PST

  •  Hate to say it... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    badger, joanneleon, smkngman

    ...but offshoring has been a state goal of the Obama administration for quite some time:

    U.S. To Train 3,000 Offshore IT Workers

    Despite President Obama's pledge to retain more hi-tech jobs in the U.S., a federal agency run by a hand-picked Obama appointee has launched a $36 million program to train workers, including 3,000 specialists in IT and related functions, in South Asia.

  •  Obama and 150 of his Corporate BFFs (3+ / 0-)

    visit India. Was there any doubt that Obama was there to cement the interests of multi-national Corps at the expense of US jobs?

    But your flag decal won't get you Into Heaven any more. They're already overcrowded From your dirty little war. -- John Prine (also flag lapel pins)

    by CitizenOfEarth on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:50:26 AM PST

  •  There use to be a time when Democratic Presidents (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    badger, joanneleon, esquimaux

    supported labor.

    "old stereotype that ignores today's reality"

    Has this guy got a clue??? I know the official unemployment numbers are manipulated the make them a lot lower than reality, but seriously. I am beginning to wonder what planet this President lives on. I guess he thinks boosting the middle class in India and sending our jobs to India will ensure his re-election here in 2010.

    He is flip flopping too much I no longer know where Obama stands. Makes it hard to get people to vote for him with so many contraindications.  

  •  REMEMBER it was the repugs that stopped the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    legislation that would stop rewarding companies for shipping jobs overseas. There is nothing incompatible with the idea, that taxpayers do not have to reward companies for shipping jobs overseas, while we can act to make our products more competitive for overseas markets. MADE IN AMERICA means something, and we can compete with HCR which both GATES AND BUFFETT said were necessary to meet the demands of global competition. It was BUSINESS that needed health care reform.

  •  But the new markets in India... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joanneleon, goinsouth, zephron

    will allow American companies to sell goods that are manufactured in China.

    During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
    - George Orwell

    by HairyTrueMan on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 09:55:52 AM PST

  •  Krugman was (is?) for outsourcing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aspe4, joanneleon

    from 1997
    from 2004

    and i can remember the debate about free trade during Clinton's time.  i bought it - thinking that if those poor countries got good jobs for their people, then we wouldn't have to help them when they had troubles - they could help themselves.

    i've now seen the effects of that deal.   those countries don't have the labor and environmental laws we have.

    Faux News ruined my state

    by sc kitty on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 10:02:59 AM PST

  •  transport is too cheap. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, joanneleon, anarchyintheusa

    All this debate about outsourcing, movement of jobs and goods.

    increase the price of oil by a factor of ten and see all the jobs streaming back to the US because no one would be able to afford wasteful shipping about of semifinished things across the worlds oceans for every minimal manufacturing step.

    Thus, enact a carbon tax - and a hefty one, many times the current price - and solve at the same time the climate crisis and the jobs crisis.

    its so obvious, why does no one do it?

    I´d say, make the carbon tax so high that cargo sailing becomes economic again. (No, not a joke. We´re gonna see it anyways).

    Ici s´arrète la loi.

    by marsanges on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 10:59:07 AM PST

    •  Chamber of Commerce (0+ / 0-)

      and that would be the US Chamber of Commerce, not the more local ones, vehemently oppose cap and trade or any carbon tax.

      We know why there is no carbon tax.  Because US and multi-national companies want the tilted playing field that they've got right now and they do not give a damn about the US economy or the American people.  They care about one thing and one thing only -- profits.

      And they are and they will ruin this country.  Sadly, our government is enabling them, present leadership included.

  •  Still clueless. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joanneleon, anarchyintheusa

    Obama had his head handed to him this past week and he still does not get it.  He cannot get it since the people he orates; jobs, jobs, jobs, to are not the people he represents.

    Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

    by Fossil on Mon Nov 08, 2010 at 12:00:13 PM PST

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