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The two main Democratic arguments in favor of the accepting the tax cut deal are:

  1. It will provide stimulus for the economy;
  2. By extending unemployment benefits and tax cuts for those making under $250K it will reduce the "collateral damage" on millions of Americans.
This argument is not without merit, and real progressive sympathy. When presenting it yesterday, President Obama wrapped it up in a hostage crisis analogy:

"I think it’s tempting not to negotiate with hostage takers, unless the hostage gets harmed, then people will question the wisdom of that strategy," Obama said."In this case the hostage was the American people and I was not willing to see them get harmed."

At one juncture, Obama extended the hostage-taking metaphor by talking about escorting the American people to a "safe place" where they might be protected from the political crossfire.

The problem is, this deal does not free the hostages, and escort them to a safe place. This is because, at a minimum, the deal does not raise the debt ceiling.

According to current projections, Congress will have to vote on raising the debt ceiling in late March, or else the whole country goes into default. At that time, Republicans could--and likely will--take the entire country hostage. After their successful hostage taking on the tax cuts, in exchange for raising the debt ceiling preventing default, they could demand spending cuts that will far exceed any of the stimulus in this deal, or exceed any collateral damage caused by not doing this deal.

Further, raising the debt ceiling was actually on the table during the negotiations on the tax cut deal, according to several congressional aides involved in the process. That raising the debt ceiling did not appear in the final deal, and that Mitch McConnell is now saying that "the agreement is essentially final," is a clear sign that Republicans are not going to just go along with raising the debt ceiling in late March, and will once again engage in hostage taking.

Representative Peter Welch, who is a leader of the opposition to the deal among House Democrats, specifically mentioned the debt ceiling issue in his response to President Obama’s press conference (from a press release received over email):

"Before the ink is dry on this deal, the Republican leaders who demanded its passage will vilify the President as a reckless spender who just added a trillion dollars to the national debt. Then they will vote against raising the debt ceiling."

At an absolute minimum, if Republicans do not agree to raising the debt ceiling as part of this deal, then they are negotiating in bad faith. Until raising the debt ceiling becomes part of the deal, then the deal has no stimulus, no reduction in collateral damage, and no hostages have been freed.

Say no to the deal. Sign the petition supporting the Democrats opposing the deal.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:46 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Excellent analysis, Chris. (28+ / 0-)

    So glad you are a front pager.  

    So true:

    At an absolute minimum, if Republicans do not agree to raising the debt ceiling as part of this deal, then they are negotiating in bad faith. Until raising the debt ceiling becomes part of the deal, then the deal has no stimulus, no reduction in collateral damage, and no hostages have been freed.

    Trumka: "Absolutely Insane" to Extend Tax Cuts for Millionaires

    by TomP on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:47:44 AM PST

  •  When Obama lays down with Obstructionists (13+ / 0-)
    he gets up with a knife in his political back anyway

    from FOX:

    Fox News reporter James Rosen, one of the network's ostensible straight news reporters, said last night on The O'Reilly Factor that Americans should be concerned about national security after Obama, Rosen said, showed he's open to negotiating with hostage-takers.

    but but but PROGRESSIVES are too purist for OBAMA.

    (throws up hands)

    Have the TeaPublicans fixed the economy yet?

    by KnotIookin on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:48:57 AM PST

  •  If you were collecting UI (6+ / 0-)

    you might well have a different take on it.

    "slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

    by ban nock on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:49:14 AM PST

    •  Right (11+ / 0-)

      But we're all going to have a different perspective on it when the Republicans demand deep concessions in exchange for their hostage of the entire U.S. economy, once it comes time to raise the debt ceiling.

      "The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive...death. I'll eat the pie." Homer as Solomon

      by Lost Left Coaster on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:52:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  that's not how I make these decisions (15+ / 0-)

      and while I'm not currently unemployed, I have been for significant amounts of time within the past 2 years. but I don't support policies which will make things worse just because of the temporary benefit they offer to me. I would be a Republican if that was how I operated. and again, these two matters; tax cuts and UI extension, were only made inseparable within the past week, and had no bearing on one another before that. it was just all of a sudden, "You must hate the poor if you don't support these tax cuts for the rich!" and by that logic, all supporters of this bill hate the 99'ers, so there.

      •  I don't see the American electorate up in arms. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mimikatz

        just the liberal left and do you know why that is?  Because they don't give a shit about the rich getting a tax cut as long as they are protected.  People would have been outraged if their taxes had gone up and do you know who the would blame, not the R's but the D's and why might you ask.  Because Americans are hard wired to believe lies and BS.  This is really a losing battle and we can rage as much as we want but until the American electorate gets an F'g clue and shows up, a few of us raging on the left are not going to mean anything.  

        "New TSA slogan: can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants."

        by lakehillsliberal on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:32:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  public opinion has long (4+ / 0-)

          been strongly against extending these tax cuts. and when they realize that this 'extension' will serve as the bridge to making them permanent in 2 years, it will be so much the worse. this deal raises the taxes of individuals making under $20K and couples making under $40K. it weakens SS funding. 13 months of UI is something (for some, nothing for the 99'ers) but it will run out and then what? something which used to pass routinely is now subject to political blackmail and ever-increasing concessions. it might be a losing battle, might not, but it has to be fought...

          •  Public Opinion means nothing unless people SHOW (0+ / 0-)

            UP to vote.  The people that showed up to vote said that what the R's are doing is fine with them.  It isn't as if they did not know from history what these guys were going to do.  So we can blah, blah, blah all we want.  The voting American public disagrees.

            "New TSA slogan: can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants."

            by lakehillsliberal on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:49:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  this mid-term (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              radical simplicity

              was all about the need for jobs and a recovery. except, instead of more jobs and a recovery we got fewer jobs and miscalculated projections of what levels unemployment would reach and a plateau of below-par economic indicators, and then hubris in defense of the wrong numbers instead of action. that lost the election - bad performance on the economy. not people protesting against raising tax rates for the rich.

              •  Does that matter, when they voted, they voted for (0+ / 0-)

                this.  Elections have consequences and this is one of the consequences.  The R's have been very clear on where they stand on taxes, it is the only thing they have been clear on.  We cannot be in denial about it and we have to stop believing that the American electorate agrees with us.  They don't.  

                "New TSA slogan: can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants."

                by lakehillsliberal on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:19:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  ok (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  radical simplicity

                  I'll stop pretending we're having a potentially productive discussion on this one. if you want to believe that the public now suddenly supports tax breaks for the wealthy, there's not much I can do about it. years of polling show otherwise, and this past election has zip to do with it one way or the other.

                  •  Look at the polling, what is not asked is the (0+ / 0-)

                    key question.  "If denying tax cuts for the wealthy meant that you would also have YOUR taxes go up, is that acceptable?"  No one ever asks the question that they don't want the answer to.  If the issue is the deficit, then all those tax cuts need to expire.  Just letting the taxes on the wealthy expire is chump change  

                    "New TSA slogan: can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants."

                    by lakehillsliberal on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:10:05 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  The Republicans aren't just holding... (12+ / 0-)
      ...hostages, they're creating a wedge issue, too.

      Sherrod Brown had the right idea last night on Rachel's show: keep the Senate in session and keep bringing up UI extension alone, until they cave (or miss Christmas). Of course, that means blocking or voting down this shit sandwich.

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

      by JeffW on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:59:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why do you think they are going to cave (0+ / 0-)

        on what evidence?

        They just won, and the votes in the center (Collins, Snowe) are at this point more worried about a primary fight than a general election fight.

        The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

        by fladem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:13:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

          ...Snowe and Collins will have to worry about any unemployed Mainers in that context, if this crap pile doesn't pass. It's not a done deal, as there are some Teabaggers already in Congress that opposed it, there are angry Dems and Bernie Sanders who are talking blocks and filibusters, and there's the very real chance that the suggestions herein (debt ceiling rise, infrastructure bonds, SS cap rise, etc.) may become amendments to it in the House, which may lead to a Republican filibuster.

          The next few weeks are going to be very interesting for everyone. The Republicans may be celebrating prematurely.

          Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

          by JeffW on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:31:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Snowe runs as an indie and Collins is up in 2016. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            radical simplicity

            Really, the problem is that most people don't pay attention because they are too busy trying to get by and the people who really care about taxes and squawk about it are the rich and their camp followers like the tea partiers, who don't really understand how government and taxes work.

            Granted we have equity and fairness and fiscal prudence on our side, but the rich have the money and they are determined to hang onto it.

            Unfortunately, we no longer make policy in this country based on what is right, fair or sensible.  Until the rich feel they have more to lose by trying to hang onto everything, this is the new reality.

            The scientific uncertainty doesn't mean that climate change isn't actually happening.

            by Mimikatz on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:39:54 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I am collecting UI, and I'm opposed to the deal. (8+ / 0-)

      Would love to get on the next tier, but it's not worth ruining the country by borrowing more money to give to the rich. It seems obvious that the tax cuts for the rich are going to be paid for with cuts to SS.

      Admittedly, I don't expect to starve when my UI runs out in February, because my husband still has a job -- but he does work for the same company that let me go (along with many others), so by no means is our future income secure.

      But a tiny bit more UI at so much cost is just not worth it.

      •  Key words in your decision is that your are not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock

        going to starve but there are many other people that will.  Changes the perspective when that is the case.

        "New TSA slogan: can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants."

        by lakehillsliberal on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:34:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  We are going to starve anyway (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          radical simplicity

          THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT.

          There is no way to save us from these terrorists. Either we capitulate now, or we capitulate later, and then they will starve us anyway.

          We are not dealing with reasonable people with consciences. They will not stop until we are all dead.

        •  Been in the starving camp (0+ / 0-)

          No worries - I'm skinnier, and I STILL don't want this deal. Despite being utterly terrified of that kind of hunger again, I know that this "deal" harms myself and my children more than it will help. It's more important to stop it. We've got some veggie oil, some rice and some beans. We know we can make it for weeks on that, if we need to.

          I want the hostage takers to have to go home and face their constituents over the holidays. They'll come back much more willing to deal.

          Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

          by radical simplicity on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:32:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I *was* collecting UI. Now I'm not. (0+ / 0-)

      And it's not because I'm employed.

      My take on it is that the raw deal is MUCH more harmful to my family than letting us wait a few extra weeks while the [republicans] get destroyed by their constituents for taking them hostage.

      Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

      by radical simplicity on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:20:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  So, exactly what happens... (18+ / 0-)

    ...if 12/31/10 comes and goes without any vote passing?

    Everyone's taxes go up to what they were in 2000, right?

    Fine. For the first time in history, Congress should do what it does best: Not a Goddamned thing.

  •  People Don't Yet Grasp What This Year Has (13+ / 0-)

    in store.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:49:32 AM PST

  •  As one of the long term unemployed... (13+ / 0-)

    I can't say "no deal".

    I have a very personal stake in this.  I would like a better deal.  I would like the tax cuts to simply expire.  

    But my safety next expires soon, too, with no other relief (a new job or other extension of UIC) on the horizon.

    If I show my support and enthusiasm for positive change, I create an environment that enables the change to be made even better.

    by Richard Cranium on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:49:39 AM PST

    •  Good luck to you Richard (6+ / 0-)

      "slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

      by ban nock on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:51:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am sympathetic (10+ / 0-)

      honestly but the GOP or rather enough of them always cave on this - this is a really routine part of the DC Kabuki. To my knowledge it has already happened five times - this is history not conjecture.

      There never were any hostages.

      Sanctimonious, Self Satisfied, Liberal and Proud.

      by stevej on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:53:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So you think we can flip 7 Senators come January (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mimikatz

        And that radicalized house will pass unemployment extensions without attaching tax cuts to it?  I honestly don't see it.  They will wait the lame duck out.  Come back and propose unemployment extensions with tax cuts attached, probably permanent.  I don't think they will have any shame is doing that.  

        •  The Unemployment Extensions (7+ / 0-)

          would have passed period. You can muddy the waters as much as you like but on that one specific (which is the apologists bedrock) history makes me correct.

          As for the rest the GOP's bluff should have been called.

          Sanctimonious, Self Satisfied, Liberal and Proud.

          by stevej on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:00:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Forget unempoloyment extenrions (0+ / 0-)

          Why would they?  They hate it, along with the Earned Income Tax Credit.  Kiss them goodby.  

          In January the GOP will propose repealing the estate tax and cutting high-end rates and will "forget" to raise the zero bracket amount and lower the bottom rate on the theory that millions of people won't miss $1000 each but a few people will really, really miss those millions.  And they are right.  We saw it in the election last month.  That's what is wrong with the whole depbate.  

          The scientific uncertainty doesn't mean that climate change isn't actually happening.

          by Mimikatz on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:44:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Every Democratic Step From Now On Destroys People (9+ / 0-)

      If we save you we destroy other people in other circumstances.

      The policies that would stop destroying people are radical purist hippie policies that simply do not have any credibility. Must be near half the population don't believe any longer that we ever did it right in the past.

      The rest of my life will be torn up this coming year as my small state worker's pension, scheduled to start in a year, will be jerked away, as Social Security is being torn down as well.

      My wife and I will have to continue working with our backs and hands at least into age 80.

      After that we expect to lose the house.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:53:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  We have 3 children, 1 unemployed, that's 33%. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      radical simplicity

      We are on SS and his son has to live with us.  We can pull together as a family to keep that 1 afloat for a while. But we can't just have him unemployed forever.  Temporary UI would be helpful for now, but if the price is permanent unemployment, we can't afford it.

      A right answer to the wrong question is a wrong answer.

      by legalarray on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I get your position... (0+ / 0-)

      I am a single mom holding on pay check to pay check constantly wondering if my heat is going to be on.  School pictures sends me into a panic, and most weeks I have about $40 for groceries.

      Without the deal, I will loose tax deductions for my child and pay more out of my already insufficient paycheck; however,

      I SAY NO DEAL!!!!  I was relieved at first they made the deal.  Then I thought about the cost; the cost to my daughter; your kids; the economy, etc.  

      I will find a way to survive even if I have to seek help other places.  I will not sacrifice the bigger picture for my personal needs.....

      NO DEAL!!!

      •  Good for you but what about others who can't make (0+ / 0-)

        it work.  I say those of you that can afford it, just send the money back on principle. Just refuse it, you can do that.  It would seem to me the fairest way of dealing with all of this.  If the money is too tainted to accept, don't but don't deny others who are in desperate straights the right to make their own decision about what to do.  

        "New TSA slogan: can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants."

        by lakehillsliberal on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:41:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can't believe that it has come to this in such (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          radical simplicity

          a short time.

          It's the selfishness and corruption of the GOP that got us into this in the first place.  George Bush and his cronies irresponsible handling of the reigns of government have fucking ruined this country, possibly forever.  

          We must not let them completely ransack what is left of our country, and these tax cuts are designed to do exactly that.  

          A few thousand or so of these people are padding their Swiss Bank accounts on the backs of the working class and poor.  They know, when the shit hits the fan, they can retire to the south of France and relax.  Fuck the middle class. They don't care.

    •  Thank Obama for that (3+ / 0-)

      He tied your fate to his desire for tax cuts for the rich

    •  Something to think about as 2nd profession (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      radical simplicity

      Phlebotomy Programs
      "Shorter certificate programs tend to run for about 15 weeks. Certificate programs of study prepare students to take the phlebotomy certification exam. Some programs begin teaching students by having them perform blood draws on a simulator arm, and then drawing blood from fellow students before being assigned to a clinical site to fulfill the field experience requirement. Many schools now offer classes during evening hours or on weekends to accommodate employed, nontraditional students. Programs are structured to provide a total of 80 to 120 hours of instruction, which may include as many as six weeks of clinical experience. The average cost to complete a certificate program in phlebotomy is about $1,600."

      http://www.ehow.com/...

    •  Mine expired (0+ / 0-)

      This deal would do more harm to my children than a few weeks of forcing the hostage-takers to face their hostages.

      If they actually have to go home and face their constituents over the break, after killing those constituents' unemployment, they'll come back with their tails between their legs.

      How long can you hold out?

      Shop Liberally this holiday season at Kos Katalog

      by radical simplicity on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:38:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Anyone else in awe that all this... all this (21+ / 0-)

    ugliness and confusion and economic disaster is entirely due to the fact that the top 1/100th of 1% is the sole driver of US politics - including our wars?

    This is the entire truth of the situation.

    Around 300-400 families control our entire actions as a nation.

  •  This should be our mantra (8+ / 0-)

    There never were any hostages.

    The GOP always threaten to block extensions.
    In the end enough always cross over so that the extensions go through.
    This is not conjecture it is history.

    Therefore there never were any hostages so Obama just gave the GOP everything they wanted.

    This has to be both the rebuttal to those hoodwinked on our side the starting point of the debate about where this president really wants to take us.

    This feels like the first term of a Grover Norquist presidency and thatand our response to it is what we need to discuss.

    Sanctimonious, Self Satisfied, Liberal and Proud.

    by stevej on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:50:49 AM PST

  •  Why Can't Obama cut a deal with Dems? (0+ / 0-)

    Why not keep the current framework of the deal- tax cuts for millionaires, but then add in a whole bunch of goodies for liberals and progressives that create jobs, like an infrastructure bank, spending on green energy, hell, why not EFCA?  And then you beat the filibuster in the Senate with all Dems plus a few Republicans?  

    Still sort of insane that he's going to try to pass this with the GOP minorities in the House and Senate.  

    Again, like a lot of liberals I have no problem with deal-cutting and horse trading- it just seems like Obama's really bad at it.  It really shouldn't be that hard to get liberals to sign onto this even disgusting give away to the rich- just give liberals more goodies and they'll hold their nose and vote for it!

  •  So we shouldn't act now... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Inland
    ...because of something GOPosaurs might do at some later date to renege on the extension of UI benefits?

    That's a stretch.

    To be clear, it's "EClectablog", not "Electablog".
    Become a fan of Eclectablog on Facebook.

    by Eclectablog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:52:23 AM PST

    •  Is it? (8+ / 0-)

      Do you really think it is a stretch to think that the GOP is going to use the debt ceiling as a powerful bargaining chip? It seems pretty reasonable to me.

      Remember, many new teabagger Congresspeople are vowing not to vote for raising it. If there is a divide within the Republican caucus on whether or not to vote for raising the debt ceiling, then those more extreme members are going to demand that their leadership extract concessions from Obama.

      "The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive...death. I'll eat the pie." Homer as Solomon

      by Lost Left Coaster on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:55:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And if the debt ceiling isn't raised... (4+ / 0-)

        ...the next step would be to defund the UI extension. And all that compromise would get the unemployed nothing.

        Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

        by JeffW on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:04:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So, by your logic... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lilchas, Inland
          ...we shouldn't do anything now because the Republicans might take it away later.

          Well, that makes things much easier, doesn't it?

          To be clear, it's "EClectablog", not "Electablog".
          Become a fan of Eclectablog on Facebook.

          by Eclectablog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:08:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I didn't say that... (0+ / 0-)

            ...if anything, the Democrats should add the debt ceiling rise to this bill, in anticipation of the problem. They could add back the BAB provision, too. Let the Republicans sputter as stuff is added, as they'd probably do the same. The only problem is that it may run out the clock, so we have to be aware of that.

            Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

            by JeffW on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:13:41 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Shooting the hostage now (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eclectablog

            means that same hostage can't be used later.  They'll have to find a different hostage and that's good because, uh.....

            Denounce someone else's lack of courage from safe distance and anonymously!

            by Inland on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:17:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's not a stretch to say they might do it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lilchas
        It's a stretch to say we shouldn't ever do anything ever again because they might. Talk about a hostage situation. Sheezo...

        To be clear, it's "EClectablog", not "Electablog".
        Become a fan of Eclectablog on Facebook.

        by Eclectablog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not a matter of doing nothing now (0+ / 0-)

          It's a matter of not making this kind of deal now, because, ultimately, we haven't deprived the Republicans of another powerful bargaining chip that can be used to bludgeon us later.

          At the very least, the debt ceiling should have been included for this incredibly high price of extending the tax cuts for the rich.

          "The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive...death. I'll eat the pie." Homer as Solomon

          by Lost Left Coaster on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:21:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  How would you prevent them from using it as chip? (0+ / 0-)

        True, this deal doesn't prevent it, but then again, nothing could.  Every vote can be a hostage situation, some of which are more threatening than others.  So?  Welcome to America.  

        Denounce someone else's lack of courage from safe distance and anonymously!

        by Inland on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:16:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with the frontpager (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mr MadAsHell

          The debt ceiling should have been included in this deal. Tax cuts for the rich are a very high price to pay, and we should have bought something more dear for it, at the very least.

          "The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive...death. I'll eat the pie." Homer as Solomon

          by Lost Left Coaster on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:22:13 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  THIS years' debt ceiling? (0+ / 0-)

            What about next years?

            You're pushing the string: everything can be pointed to as a hostage situation, and no ransom is going to include everything.  So wishful thinking isn't even wishful enough to solve the problem that the FP says exists.  Nothing is going to make the republicans simply go away forever, and the failure to make them go away forever simply means that, like every other period of our country, the fights go on.  

            Denounce someone else's lack of courage from safe distance and anonymously!

            by Inland on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:24:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

              But that doesn't mean we couldn't have done better this time. We're still in the throes of the bad economy; God-willing, in the future the economy will have improved, making all of these decisions/negotiations a little less life and death. Of course, we'll see about that...

              "The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive...death. I'll eat the pie." Homer as Solomon

              by Lost Left Coaster on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:03:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  And inaction wouldn't change the debt ceiling (0+ / 0-)

      problem either.   I don't get it.

      Denounce someone else's lack of courage from safe distance and anonymously!

      by Inland on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:14:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What would lead you to believe that the (0+ / 0-)

      Republicans will behave differently than they have?  Please show me where they have indicated that they will negotiate in good faith.  Speaker Boehner and Minority Leader McConnell have both said that their intense campaign of saying NO is not going away.

      I don't know that they will sabotage this deal per se, but when it comes to the debt ceiling, what are you willing to give up?  The Republicans are scorched earth fanataics who have no interest in halfway measures.  

      Are you willing to get rid of the Affordable Care Act?  That would be a perfect bargaining chip! They have wanted it gone, and now it isn't deficit neutral since it was passed under the auspices of the Tax Cuts expiring!

      How much of the New Deal?  Maybe raising the retirement age to 70?  Decrease the benefits you get?  Where is the line?

  •  Just say hello to 2011 (9+ / 0-)

    the Austerity year.

    Cut taxes

    Cut services

    But don't touch the military!

    "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

    by LaFeminista on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:52:24 AM PST

  •  yeah, this is key (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin, JeffW

    the short-sightedness of this deal and those supporting it is positively maddening. and the manipulative bullshit about how if you don't support this you hate poor people. it's pure Karl Rove, but being spouted by supposed Democrats against the political left.

    people have just got no imagination around here. how easy would it have been to tell the Repubs that if they wanted their precious tax cuts passed, they'd first have to pass the new START Treaty. leave UI out of it completely, and hold successive votes on that as a separate matter until they inevitably cave. then you maybe make some kind of deal on the taxes and the treaty. but this deal makes things a tiny bit better for some in a way that will certainly make things worse for many more in the long run.

  •  NO -- don't make debt cieling trhe threshold (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, JeffW

    look, they're going to continue to play these games.  We have to learn to confront them on issues -- not dealmaking.  We win on the debt ceiling -- they can refuse to raise it and grandstand, but they will cave.  DO NOT go trading this tax cut deal for the non-sweetener of raising the debt ceiling.  Whatever rhetorical charm that idea has (love your words as always Chris) it is not a meaningful policy choice.

    •  agreed (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, JeffW, Eclectablog

      And that's why all this pushback from the left is important.

      The deal is a winner.

      But our anger is also important.

      Obama has to be able to go into the NEXT negotiation and say "fellas, Mitch, John, guys, gotta tell ya -- that's the most you're going to get out of me for a long, long time."

      If we sit on our hands, he can't do that.

      I know it sounds like I'm in denial but I'm not.

      by Save the clock tower on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:59:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Republicans must support raising the debt ceiling (0+ / 0-)

        Their real base - wall street and multinational corporations- will demand it. If the debt ceiling is not raised, all USA assets will plummet in value, including stocks and bonds. The dollar will become seriously devalued and we would enter a real depression. The fat cats would not be able to collect their bonuses and their stock options would be worthless.  Germany, Japan and China would follow because their exports would shrink considerably.

    •  Good point, Mambo. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wom Bat

      Trumka: "Absolutely Insane" to Extend Tax Cuts for Millionaires

      by TomP on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:20:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Something big missing from the deal (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, ferment, tardis10

    The Buy America Bonds program.  There's a very good diary by Bobswern on this.  The state governments are collectively facing a $140 billion deficit next year and it only gets worse in coming years due to a combination of structurally declining sales tax revenues (sales tax is too heavy on goods, not enough on services, and the trend is more consumption of services and less of goods) and the fallout from years of over-promising and under-delivering on pension contributions.  That, and with Oberstar-Mica transportation reauthorization in limbo, mostly due to the administration's bungling, the states are more on the hook than ever for our crappy infrastructure.

    I could support this deal if the Buy America Bonds and a package of Oberstar-Mica and a gas tax increase were included.  Without these provisions we're looking at a disaster for the states in the next couple of years.

    •  Gas tax increase? That is (0+ / 0-)

      a very regressive tax. Why do you think it is a good idea? (agreed about the bonds)

      "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

      by tardis10 on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:06:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because the transportation trust is broke (0+ / 0-)

        It hasn't gone up since 1993, it's still 18.4 cents a gallon as back then, the transportation trust fund has run dry, and new funding was absolutely critical to the Oberstar-Mica proposal of a) getting more rail and transit funding and b) stepping up funding for repairing existing roads rather than having all the money go toward building new.

        Also, bringing in money from the general fund isn't a realistic alternative, in my view.  What will happen without gas tax renewal is tolling, which is brutal on fuel-efficient vehicles and raises the SUV and trucking lobbying's sense of entitlement to new heights.

        Tolling's more of a deterrent to driving than the gas tax, so it's not entirely without merit, but Americans are more sensitive than most to gas prices and the gas tax incentivizes the use of efficient vehicles as well as raising the necessary money quickly and efficiently.

  •  Exactly right (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin, QuestionAuthority
    This has, of course, been going on for decades.  Republicans have been willing to kill any useful bill, even to shut down the government, in order to force concessions.  The Democrats have always caved (fascinatingly, even though shutting down the government was a political disaster for the Republicans, they can still use the threat and Democrats still cave).  All Obama has done is turn this into a formal policy: it is now the party's official position that it will always cave to Republican demands.

    "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

    by weasel on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:54:11 AM PST

  •  Yes, debt ceiling must be in there (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW
    Obama should cut out McConnell and negotiate with individual Democrats and Republicans to reach 60.  
  •  What are the core principles of the Party? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lilchas, maryabein, mchestnutjr

    Any takers?   What does the Democratic Party stand for?   What is their mission, and what are their core principles.

    Honest question.

    I know what I think they should be, but obviously I've been mistaken, so does someone want to clue me in on what exactly the Democratic party represents, today?

    What are the core principles of the Democratic Party? Serious Question...

    by Beelzebud on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:54:45 AM PST

    •  Core principles: Making life a bit better for (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maryabein

      20% of the American population as opposed to just 1/10th of 1% of the population.

      •  Honestly if that is it (0+ / 0-)

        then we're in bigger trouble than I thought.  

        I'm being serious here.   Let's say I'm at a bar trying to talk up support for the Democrats.  What exactly are the core principles to list off, to gain favor?

        That they favor main street over wall street?  
        That they favor ending unnecessary wars?
        That they favor a fair tax system?
        That they favor a strong health care system?

        None of those arguments describe what we've seen in the past two years.  

        If it's "they make life a bit better for 20% of the population", then that's not going to cut it.  

        What are the core principles of the Democratic Party? Serious Question...

        by Beelzebud on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:04:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just to be clear: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Beelzebud

          Basically, that's what I think the Dems' essence is now.

          This is in opposition to the right wing whose core principle is "Burn down the world, kill anything that stands in the way of 400 families owning everything."

          I'm not saying I approve of the Dems here, just calling it as I see it.

  •  Obstruction... (6+ / 0-)
    Photobucket

    "War is a Racket" -- MajGen Smedley D. Butler, USMC

    by PvtJarHead on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:55:21 AM PST

  •  my argument: messaging (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loge

    The deal de-fangs the GOP message machine leading up to 2012.

    If Obama had blocked upper income tax cuts, we'd all be dancing around, but as the recovery continued to be slow (and it will be) Obama would have to fend off attack after attack from the GOP saying "if only you'd gone along with our tax cut for the rich plan, there'd be a BMW in every driveway by now."

    Now they can't say that.

    It's bad fiscal policy.  But it's good politics.  

    And I want Obama re-elected.  He's the only Dem who can be.  I think we can all agree on that if we're being honest.

    I know it sounds like I'm in denial but I'm not.

    by Save the clock tower on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:55:25 AM PST

    •  Come on (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      m00finsan

      Stop with the hyperbole.  Obama isn't the only Dem who can get elected as President.  Don't forget we've won 5 out of the last 6 popular votes for President. I can also see people voting for Hillary for President and there's been an undercurrent of buyer's remorse lately even among staunch Obama supporters.  

      Obama's recent triangulation isn't ideal, but he is the leader of the Party and no credible primary challenger will show up in 2012.  He has his strategy for 2012 and it involves disappointing liberals at least some of the time.  I don't like it but I understand it.        

    •  clock tower, the OBAMA thrashing will continue (0+ / 0-)

      unabatted lol  to think otherwise is naive.

      Already FOX is framing this as proof OBAMA is weak... now on NATIONAL SECURITY because (and get this) "he has proven he is willing to negotiate with terrorists"  LOL  

      the right has NO SHAME, no ethics and no reason to not continue doing exactly what they have been doing... which includes continuing to bash the President on everything he does, even his capitulations to THEIR Demands.

      Meanwhile the VOTE will be practically one sided with DEMOCRATS falling in line, like with healthcare and barely enough repubs voting for passage to get this bad bill passed, leaving the right FREE to blame this bill on DEMOCRATS come 2012 while they smile and say ALL they wanted was an extension of the BUSH ERA tax cuts for everyone.

      the GOP playbook is always the same,  lucy ALWAYS removes the football...always.  what is frustrating so many Democratic voters is that OBAMA is now removing the football before lucy even gets on the field.

      Have the TeaPublicans fixed the economy yet?

      by KnotIookin on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:21:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I knew that (0+ / 0-)

        ... the moment he drew the hostage analogy he'd get slammed for negotiating.

        I have no idea why he framed it that way.  It is simply stupid messaging.  Then again, that's nothing new either.

        He seemed to think the media would hear "the Republicans are terrorists!" but instead, what the media is reporting is "Obama says he negotiates with Terrorists!".

        Hey, maybe that would be a teachable mooment or something.

        •  When Obama started that 'terrorist' analogy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          newpioneer

          I thought WHY is he using a LUNTZ SCRIPT?   that FOX immediately starting using it against him IS a teaching moment but it seems the WH crowd isnt interested in learnin

          Have the TeaPublicans fixed the economy yet?

          by KnotIookin on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:32:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  You're kidding, right? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      m00finsan

      You seem to be under some kind of delusion that tax cuts are the ONLY leverage they have.

      No.  Once you give it to them, they'll move onto the next crowbar and hit you with that for a while.

      That's what you get for negotiating with terrorists.  More demands.

      •  no argument there (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Senate Agenda

        But it's about what you can sell to the unwashed masses, 96% of whom aren't paying any attention this any of this.

        They see headlines.

        If the headline was "Obama compromise fails; your taxes went up" followed by "Another bad jobs report" you can bet they'd know who to blame.

        Now the headline could be "Obama compromise passes; your taxes stay low" they're not going to buy it in a few months when the GOP cries "Obama is a tax-and-spend liberal, vote for GOP Loser X instead"

        There's a really strong dissonance there that the average voter will get.  Do they care about most of the rest of this?  Do they care about deficit spending?  I contend they do not.

        I know it sounds like I'm in denial but I'm not.

        by Save the clock tower on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:37:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not only is it questionable about freeing (3+ / 0-)

    the hostages, but like I said yesterday, gives the hostage takers the GPS coordinates of the next hostages.

    Obama has essentially given the GOP instructions on how  to defeat him.

    If apes evolved from humans, why are there still humans?

    by Bobs Telecaster on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:55:54 AM PST

  •  Also, given that Obama put the UI extension on (6+ / 0-)

    the table as a get, he was complicit in taking the hostages and can't claim to have saved them.  It would be like giving someone poison, then giving them an antidote and claiming you saved them.  I think he included the UI extension in the deal in order to counter criticism, nothing else.

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:56:03 AM PST

  •  Bull Crap. Only Purist Hippies Make These Claims (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Beelzebud, newpioneer

    and they're too radical for the conversation.

    Given that it can't happen here, it's not happening here. Everyone be reasonable and stop saying extreme things.

    Call the climate scientists while you're at it and tell them 1/2 degree by 2100 is the prediction they need to bring if they want a seat at the table.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:56:10 AM PST

  •  Taxes actually go up for some (7+ / 0-)

    The NY Times has an article explaining the deal.article

    Unsurprisingly, a quarter of the tax savings will go to the wealthiest 1%.

    Surprisingly taxes will actually increase for those near the bottom:

    In fact, the only groups likely to face a tax increase are those near the bottom of the income scale — individuals who make less than $20,000 and families with earnings below $40,000.

    How the heck could that happen?

    Although the $120 billion payroll tax reduction offers nearly twice the tax savings of the credit it replaces, it will nonetheless lead to higher tax bills for individuals with incomes below $20,000 and families that make less than $40,000. That is because their payroll tax savings are less than the $400 or $800 they will lose from the Making Work Pay credit.

    "It will come to a few dollars a week," said Roberton Williams, an analyst at the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, "but it is an increase."

    To the wealthiest Americans, however, an assortment of breaks is available.

    What a deal!

  •  Debt ceiling showdown would be bad for (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loge

    Republicans--on that one they'll give ground.

    Democrats are vulnerable on some charges--raising taxes is one of them.

    Republicans are vulnerable for being irresponsible and reckless in governance.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:57:16 AM PST

    •  Obama basically put Boehner in a bind (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rb6, Geekesque, Mr MadAsHell

      by saying publicly Boehner will support a debt-ceiling increase, by not contradicting Obama, he's pretty much committed.

      There is not a single chance the debt ceiling doesn't increase.  The consequences are too shocking even for the GOP.  

      Why don't we oppose this deal because of other unrelated things that aren't in there.  Aid for Haiti?  And end to the mortgage interest deduction (while we're being electorally foolish)?  Cap and trade?

      "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

      by Loge on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:30:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  One Of The Reporters At The Press Conference (9+ / 0-)

    asked Obama the same question.  Obama said he doesn't think the Republicans want to default on the governments obligations and take the world down, thus the Republicans will raise the debt ceiling.

    Obama seems very naive.

    •  same thing I thought as well (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stillrockin, newpioneer

      "Maybe you'll find happiness in your sight shopping heaven and earth"

      by citizen4truth on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:01:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes Next Month Once The Republicans Say (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dancing Frog, Losty

        No to raising the debt ceiling, Obama will be on TV again explaining how he cut a "deal" with the Republicans to reduce Social Security to those currently receiving Social Security in order to avoid the "collateral damage" that not raising the debt ceiling would cause on the World economy.  All the pet projects of the Republicans will be in the deal, so that Obama would be allowed to raise the debt ceiling.  Republicans will simply point to Obama's "debt ceiling raise" as another example of putting America further and further in debt.  Come 2012.  

        250 is the new 180

        by kerplunk on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:09:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And the debt ceiling will NOT be raised to.... (0+ / 0-)

          an amount that will put it past the next election cycle allowing the republicans to take this hostage over and over again.

          They're going to try to dismantle or neuter everything that Obama has done in the first two years that is not to the benefit of their corporate masters. You can bet on it.

    •  Obama is rich and will soon get a lot richer (0+ / 0-)

      Obama seems very naive.

      He can afford to be naive ... won't hurt him a bit. It's the little people who can't afford naivete--either their own, or Obama's.

      As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever were to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it. --Bulwer-Lytton Contest entry

      by Wom Bat on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:28:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm surprised at this point the GOP (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin, JeffW

    isn't demanding filibuster reform be taken off the table assuming the administration hasn't already shelved it without telling anyone.

    We Destroyed this Village in order to save it from the Viet Cong er um Taliban

    by JML9999 on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:00:05 AM PST

  •  Furthermore, the hostage takers (4+ / 0-)

    are allowed to escape and to retake the hostages at any time.  And make no mistake, they will do so at every opportunity.

  •  Upcoming FP posts (3+ / 0-)

    The deal molests children!
    The deal causes cancer!
    The deal kills unicorns!

    You gotta give 'em hope. - Harvey Milk

    by abrauer on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:00:34 AM PST

  •  same ol' canard... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    as bush et all.." we didn't want the unemployed to be a smoking mushroom cloud "....boy Oblama follows a script doesn't he...next crisis please

    i have a magic pony, and it still goes poop

    by ronny mermaid on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:02:43 AM PST

  •  Sorry Chris, I am saying no to you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eclectablog, Loge

    And increasingly to this site.  What is your strategy forward?  Where will you be the day after your moral victory?  Where will the unemployed be?  

    Give us a plan not reflex hand wringing and moral outrage.

    Obama isn't the problem.  Dems in the House and especially the Senate are the problem. Pretending otherwise is useless.  Obama practically begged them to vote on this issue before the election and they didn't because they thought it might give them an electoral advantage (thus showing how stupid many in congress actually are).

    Oh sure, hindsight is as they say 20/20 and apparently Obama is supposed to have perfect hindsight.  Please.

    I am a big supporter of Act Blue and so on, but there is no strategy here just raw emotion and it isn't going to move us one inch forward.  Sorry. Signing out for now.

  •  Well, the continued tax cut for the (0+ / 0-)

    working classes will help spur the economy. It would nice to have the breaks for the +$250K put back into even MORE tax breaks for the working classes.

    That would spur the economy: it help keep people in their homes. It would help pay bills, keep banks solvent. It would spur job growth.

    Giving money to the already rich?
    Not so much.

    Obama/Democrats: The Earth is round. Republicans: No! it's flat!
    The compromise: The Earth is a triangle.

    by shpilk on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:06:04 AM PST

  •  It's this simple (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin, mattinjersey, schnecke21

    Do you think the Bush economic policies work or not?  I say not.  So this is a bad deal.

    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do. " Oscar Gamble, circa 1980

    by Spider Stumbled on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:05 AM PST

  •  They know how to fight against the Dems (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    according to Sam Stein:
    WH Privately Pushing Data Showing Bush Tax Cut Extension Politically Popular

    Does anyone doubt that there is a lot of arm twisting going on to make sure there are enough votes to defeat a filibuster?

    "We Don't Pay Taxes. Only The Little People Pay Taxes." -- Leona Helmsley

    by MaizeandBlue on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:10 AM PST

  •  The hostage metaphor demonstrates that (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    goatchowder, stillrockin, Wom Bat

    President Obama does not know what he is talking about.  Fact is, hostages have already been taken and have already been harmed.  What he's negotiating is that maybe new hostages won't be taken and, like the hostages on Guantanamo, the ones in captivity now will get a special dinner for Christmas.

    I think President Obama doesn't understand about abuse and deprivation.  He doesn't understand that the abuser aims to inflict hurt and that's why the victim can't help him/herself, because any resistance will just increase the hurt -- i.e. make the abuser's task easier.

    The thing about preconceived notions is that they lead us to mistaken assumptions.  In this instance, the notion that a community organizer would be familiar with the abusive behavior inflicted on minority populations by gangsters and banksters AND know how important it is for there to be an outside intervention, and timely.
    Of course, candidate Obama never promised an intervention.  We simply assumed that's what he meant by "change."  And now we know we were wrong.  
    The community organizer apparently was taken with the organizing; the community not so much.

    Also, I have to take strong exception to the characterization of the rescue of the hostages as a "game."

    The conservative mind relies mainly on what is plain to see.

    by hannah on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:20 AM PST

  •  So, we shouldn't feel optimistic (0+ / 0-)

    about the rumored possibility of an NDAA/DADT vote today? If the hostages are still captive, so too is the hostaged bills, I presume.

    Now passing 1,000 Choi Units into the Obama administration.

    by Scott Wooledge on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:26 AM PST

  •  Are the hostages in the backseat of the car (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin, Dancing Frog

    that is in the ditch?

    The Democrats' messaging machine is laughably inept.

    What are the core principles of the Democratic Party? Serious Question...

    by Beelzebud on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:33 AM PST

    •  Yes, they are in back of the car with... (0+ / 0-)

      the money from the last heist that the democrats allowed them to take from the treasury. And, they managed to get some chuckle-head teabagger farmer that was passing by on a tractor to help tow them out of the ditch who's clueless they're planning to roll him to.;)

  •  It's not possible to get a deal for the debt (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loge

    ceiling because it is not enforceable at this time.  We pass the tax cuts now and expect the Republicans to be good guys and pass it in March?

    The DADT and Start pieces of legislation could easily be handled in a time frame to make those part of a deal.

    "Raise your hand if you think Social Security and Medicare are Socialism."-Lawerence O'Donnell

    by AZphilosopher on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:07:46 AM PST

    •  debt ceiling can be raised whenever (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AZphilosopher

      Sorry but you are wrong on this.  As a practical matter of law the debt ceiling can be raised whenever congress votes on it and the President signs it into law.  In fact, insider reports say that is what the pres asked for.  He was told no by the Republicans and as usual the Pres meekly said, "ok".

      •  Traditionally it's always done closer (0+ / 0-)

        to the drop dead date in order to put a gun to everybody's head to vote for the darned thing.  

        Granted, this would take the stress out of it but by the same token, you can't be sure that some people wouldn't just see it as a free vote to vote "no" on.

        "Raise your hand if you think Social Security and Medicare are Socialism."-Lawerence O'Donnell

        by AZphilosopher on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:32:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Reinstates the estate tax. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loge

    While I agree that the process and the deal has many flaws, let us not overlook the reinstatement of the estate tax.  That is a very big positive.

    The estate tax, in my humble but educated opinion, is a very important tool for stimulating growth.  It promotes the reinvestment of capital to productivity, rather than letting wealth simply pass and sit idle in the hands of "idiot sons."

    Truth creates money. Lies destroy it. - Suze Orman

    by smartcookienyc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:09:38 AM PST

  •  Prez: Place of Birth ‘Negotiable’ (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    goatchowder, dalamia, Losty, mike1997

    In Latest Compromise with GOP, Obama Agrees He is a Muslim

    Place of Birth ‘Negotiable,’ President Says

    But Mr. Obama’s willingness to back down on his claim of being a Christian does not seem to have satisfied his Republican opposition, as GOP leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) today insisted that the President must also agree that he was born in Kenya.

    While Mr. Obama did not immediately agree to Rep. Bohener’s demand, he hinted that yet another compromise might be in the offing: "My place of birth has been, and will always be, negotiable."

    http://www.borowitzreport.com/...

  •  It holds us all hostage (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    by increasing the deficit at a time we can least afford it, at the expense of the taxpayers, for the benefit of the extremely wealthy.

    NO DEAL.

  •  Absurd analogy - Period. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mahakali overdrive

    Hey Boehner and the Republicans: WHERE ARE THOSE JOBS YOU PROMISED????

    by LamontCranston on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:10:36 AM PST

  •  ? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    Are you trying to tell me that Obama caved to the Republicans and got nothing in return?  Why thats...thats...business as usual?

  •  Just raise everyone's taxes and stop the bullshit (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin, mattinjersey, Wom Bat

    We know this is all a game on Congresses part to raise everyone's taxes. It's so obvious. I wasn't born yesterday.

    •  Exactly as most of those polled didn't realize (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattinjersey

      that they had received one.

      How can people miss what they never realized what they were given.  It averaged about $20 per week more in a paycheck before taxes, I believe ($1,000/year).

      Silly people.

      Hey Boehner and the Republicans: WHERE ARE THOSE JOBS YOU PROMISED????

      by LamontCranston on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:18:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What? (0+ / 0-)

    if Republicans do not agree to raising the debt ceiling as part of this deal, then they are negotiating in bad faith.

    This finally clued us in? This is the straw that broke the camel's back?

    Have they negotiated in good faith up until this point? NO. Fact is, they never have, even before Obama was sworn in  . . and never will, so long as Barack Obama is president . . .

    . . . and probably not even when their own guy is in power.

    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." --Thomas Jefferson

    by JJEagleHawk on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:13:45 AM PST

  •  Bad news for real hostages (0+ / 0-)

    So, the official policy now is that it's OK to negotiate with hostage takers, if they threaten to actually harm their hostages. Inevitably there will be a situation where real hostage takers have people being physically held in support of one demand or another. The lesson they have just learned is that if they start harming their hostages, they are likely to get their way because the former policy of non-negotiating is now gone.

    Physically harm your hostages, get to negotiate, get your way.

    Good luck with the new policy.

    Resident Palin - she may very well take up residency in the White House in 2012, but it's too painful to use the "P" word combined with her name

    by lotac on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:14:01 AM PST

  •  Dubya said a lot of... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MediaFreeze, stillrockin, Wom Bat

    Really stupid things - but I think Obama's hostage comment may be one of the stupidest things I have heard by a President.  Hostages, by definition, are in harms way.  "[Don't] negotiate with hostage takers, unless the hostage gets harmed".  Wow.  The stupid.  It burns.

    We needed Han Solo and we got Moff Jerijerrod.

    by RichM on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:14:43 AM PST

  •  Chris, stop negotiating with hostage takers! (0+ / 0-)

    "At the very least.... blah blah blah"

    At the very least the Congress must REJECT this entire deal. Stop negotiating with hostage takers!

  •  General Obama's Army (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin, Losty

    Occupied the high ridges and hill tops. The GOP pulled off some quick marches and virtually surrounded this mountain fastness. The Army was well stocked, dug in and spoiling to test the mettle of the invasion force. Indeed the Army expected reinforcements the next few days.  But the general upon seeing this situation wailed upon his misfortunes. An emissary of the GOP brought news that Obama was to be excommunicated by the High Broder Pope from the Church of Reaganomics. Obama fell faint.

    "we should parley"

    "okay give us the high ground without a fight and we will give your army safe passage through that green gorge yonder to the open plains beyond."

    " deal"

    the army, collected it's weaponry and victuals, camp followers and hangers on and proceeded to the mouth of the pass.

    "I don't like this said one soldier, I'm heading back to my trench. Even if it becomes my grave."

    A few of his comrades followed but not many.

    Days passed and the cadre of troops waited in their old secure positions nothing happened. The small band scouted the area to find the GOP. None were found.

    So the group trudged back home, through the gi

    A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

    by Salo on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:16:01 AM PST

    •  Continued... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stillrockin

      ...

      To their horror they found their comrades corpses littering the valley floor.

      One maimed survivor was found.

      "What happened here?"

      it was a trap. As the last wagon entered the confines of the valley, the route back was sealed by GOP. The ground erupted from under our feet, we were in a mine field. Then the cannons started firing down from the sides of valleys turning the area into a cauldron. After a few hours we began to break and run. Their cavalry ran us down. Then their infantry stuck bayonets into the survivors. I only survived by by ..."

      "how did you survive?"

      " by entrapping stragglers from the doomed column who later stubbled upon the carnage."

      there is no escape.  

       

      A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

      by Salo on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:25:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Getting agreement on the debt ceiling (0+ / 0-)

    is absolutely critical - more important than other parts of this package.

    Great Post.

    For the projected economic effects of the package,
    go here:
    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/...

    The bitter truth of deep inequality has been disguised by an era of cheap imported goods and the anyone-can-make-it celebrity myth - Polly Toynbee

    by fladem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:16:31 AM PST

  •  If The Goal Is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    To help the unemployed, there are a thousand better ways to do it than first helping the rich.

    There are better ways to stimulate the economy if the goal is to help the unemployed and the economy than by first heaping more tax cuts on the rich.

    I fail to see how tax cuts for the people who don't need it is going to create jobs now, when it hasn't worked for the last nine years!

    This rationale is just more trickle down, voodoo economics BULLSHIT!!!

    I'm reminded of a bit of dialog from the movie, Riff-Raff, the first time I saw Robert Carlyle.

    "Can anyone explain to me why someone's got to make a profit every time you boil a kettle, every time your kid has a drink of water or every time a pensioner has a warm by a gas fire?"

    People rarely read the comments at the bottom of a thread.

    by stewarjt on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:19:03 AM PST

  •  More False Predictions (3+ / 0-)

    Are there tea party Senators and Representatives threatening to not raise the debt ceiling? Sure there are.

    Will some actually vote against raising the debt ceiling? Without a doubt.

    Also without a doubt, the debt ceiling WILL be raised WITH Repulican support.

    That is unless there are enough idiots in Congress to start the Great Depression II.

    I will say this though, Republicans/Tea Partiers will push hard for huge cuts in spending always going after their "wet dreams" Social Security and Medicare.

    So THAT is more of a danger then not being able to raise the debt ceiling.

  •  I do not understand this premise. Did (0+ / 0-)

    anyone really think that compromising once on one deal with the republicans to effect this deal which prevents middle class families from $3000 per annum  or more in taxes for two more years and will keep several million people from falling off the economic edge months would mean that the republicans would fall into line and do everything the Democrats want for the next two years.

    The debt ceiling battle is a necessary one and one that will affect the entire nation. There will be hostage taking every step of the way until either President Obama wins re-election of the progressives cause him to lose thus ushering in a Republican President.

    The President has shown his hand, and has indicated hi willingness to fight every step of the way, if he has to retreat one step at a time he is still standing tall on the battlefield. I am not a Progressive and in view of the incredibly vicious face they are presenting the nation these days have no desire to be in their numbers.

    I am a liberal Democrat as are almost ALL my family and friends, with few exception, and those are usually libertarians.

    I respect the president's position as do several of my friends who now have a reprieve and will wait for the next fight hoping thing will be better economically by then.

    It is still unclear what will happen in the Eurozone and whether several entire nations can stay afloat.  Americas debt ceiling is not the only iceberg on the horizon, the waters are filled with them and many ships of state may go down before this winter of our   discontent is over.  I am  confident that the captain of my ship know how to steer us out of the most dangerous ones looming. Fight on, mon capitan.

    •  You know Htchens compared Mike Moore to (0+ / 0-)

      Leni Reifenstahl.

      When will you demand Hitchens grovel and scrape in front of the Moores?

      A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

      by Salo on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:55:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  well that's a great deal more accurate (0+ / 0-)

        than comparing BWD to Riefenstalh?  aren't you in the wrong thread?  have you read the terrific Nation review of Hitchens Memoirs? They are very accurate.

        I am not a great fan of Michael Moore actually although I do admire his films. Personally I think he's as much a hypocrite as KO and Ed Schultz.

  •  I am still torn. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mahakali overdrive

    I can't get on board with opposing this lousy bill because of the risks for the unemployed.

    I can't support this bill because of the blatant robbery it imposes.

    This bill is awful as it stands; but, because of the defeat Barack Obama preemptively conceded to, I'm in cut-losses mode.

    Also, I must note that my local food bank is practically empty, which is a sign that folks simply are not taking any holistic considerations of the danger our nation and millions of its citizens are in.

    Helvetica does not feed a family or pay the gas bill. Nor does activism confine itself within the boundaries of political discourse. Until people see that, we are all potential hostages in every piece of legislation and every bogus stimulative policy.

    :::

    Maybe I'll smash this so I can say, "Hey, I smashed that! It's all in my new book/blog!"

    by nowheredesign on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:19:54 AM PST

  •  Just do nothing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yet another liberal, Churchill

    and let taxes go up. It wouldnt be the end of the world. My own taxes would go up 3-5g, and that sucks but we have to stop buying into this mentality that taxes are an evil that must be avoided at all costs. For your average middle class family they would not rise that much, for your average millionaire alot more, and for your average billionaire a whole lot more. let them reset to Clinton era rates and maybe we can get Clinton era economic performance.

  •  larded up with pork too (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Churchill

    online poker for Reid plus ethanol subsidies

    Obama was right: this tax "deal" is the same monstrosity as his health care "deal"

  •  How many petitions are we supposed to sign (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Churchill, stillrockin

    imploring these Democratic Party bastards to do what's right? Either we decide not to vote for them till they stop screwing us, or they'll screw us forever. A determined, sustained Dem voter effort to drive unresponsive Dem officeholders from power is all they'll ever understand.

    As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever were to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it. --Bulwer-Lytton Contest entry

    by Wom Bat on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:22:04 AM PST

    •  we have to sign petitions for DEMS? WTF? WHY??? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wom Bat

      80% of SUCCESS is JUST showing up! Let the tax cuts expire, my taxes are too low!

      by Churchill on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:27:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good question. (0+ / 0-)

        I no longer expect anything to make sense. I mean, when we have a Dem president pushing Bush's tax plan and some people here are approving it, what sense can you make of anything? (Obama's I had no choice bullshit notwithstanding.)

        As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever were to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it. --Bulwer-Lytton Contest entry

        by Wom Bat on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:40:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The minute you negotiate over hostages (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    one thing is guaranteed.  There will be more hostages.

    not another dime to the dnc, dscc, dccc until i have my civil rights.

    by scooter in brooklyn on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:24:01 AM PST

    •  so you would prefer to shoot all the hostages (0+ / 0-)

      in the belief that there won't be a next time?  that is so far out even you can not believe that.  They next time they will shoot half the hostages first and say they will shoot the rest by midnight.

      You people are living in a virtual world of Mortal Kombat or Warcraft and are using the poor, the middle class and the unemployed as pawns in your sick games.

      Well, half my friends and family fall into the category the President has just given a few more year to live and we are very very grateful,

      You are dangerous.

      •  Actually, I would prefer to shoot (0+ / 0-)

        The hostage takers.  But it's not about me.  It's about the long term health of our democracy, if we can keep it.  

        I wouldn't impugn your motives and think your assault is over the top.

        not another dime to the dnc, dscc, dccc until i have my civil rights.

        by scooter in brooklyn on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:58:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  well those of us who have just been granted a (0+ / 0-)

          reprieve think that you are and your friends desire to see us all fall off the cliff is definitely over the top and are eternally grateful to the President for granting that reprieve.

          Not all Democrats by any means  condemn the President for saving us for a while to keep on fighting as the world gradually pulls itself out of the ditch. It it doesn't make it, none of this will matter anyway, because it is still by no means certain the the global economic situation will no collapse entirely.

      •  I refuse to call the unemployed hostages. (0+ / 0-)

        They have agency.

        Obama is just projecting his politcal woes (surrounded as he now is by Boenher and McConnell) onto ordinary people. UI was going to extended, McConnell was probably as shocked as I am that UI could be liked to upper class taxation cuts.

        He must have been

        WTF! Omfg we were gonna give you...well yes yes indeed, we have a deal!

        A Catholic, Jew, Muslim and Buddhist walk into Al Aqsa Mosque. Buddhist immediately exclaims: "excuse me I appear to be in the wrong joke."

        by Salo on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:52:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  In 2 YRS they will extend the tax cuts again (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    goatchowder, stillrockin, surfdog

    because why wouldn't they?  If they can hold the president hostage that easily, and GET EVERYTHING THEY WANT, then why not do it again?

    80% of SUCCESS is JUST showing up! Let the tax cuts expire, my taxes are too low!

    by Churchill on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:24:41 AM PST

  •  too true (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    somehow the fact that the Republicans signed onto the deal and forced the increase in the deficit as much or more than Obama will disappear from the narrative and it will be all Obama's fault.

    And come time to raise the debt ceiling, the fact that approximately 17% cuts are already being made to fund the loss of Social Security taxes (part of this deal) we will need huge additional cuts.  Until 60-70% of non-military discretionary spending and the entitlements are gone, Republicans won't stop taking the nation hostage.  And Obama has already said he will negotiate away the hostage's lifeblood in little bits and pieces every time.  And he, and by extension, the Democratic Party, will take the blame every time.

    I would accept all kinds of bad things as being expected from any politician, what I did not expect is that this President could be that stupid.

  •  Debt Ceiling was counter-leverage-teaparty issue (0+ / 0-)

    they should have used it in the negotiations.

    80% of SUCCESS is JUST showing up! Let the tax cuts expire, my taxes are too low!

    by Churchill on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:25:22 AM PST

  •  let the country go into default, blame in on GOP (0+ / 0-)

    and then maybe that will hurt their party, not our party.

    80% of SUCCESS is JUST showing up! Let the tax cuts expire, my taxes are too low!

    by Churchill on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:26:47 AM PST

  •  It's interesting that Obama said that he was (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Churchill, Wom Bat

    going to take Boner "at this word" regarding the debt ceiling issue, but nobody has asked Boner himself if he gave his word to the President.

    Sorta be nice to know, or at least get him on record, but you know the thugs in his own party will shred him to pieces if he did that.

    DeMint would just turn to Boner and say, "You lie!"

    The most violent element in society is ignorance.

    by Mr MadAsHell on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:27:03 AM PST

  •  I smell a rat (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HeyMikey, Loge

    everyone knows the debt ceiling is going to be raised. No one is going to allow it to not happen. Even the Republicans will go along with it and they can't really use it for leverage because everyone knows they must vote for it.  Some will not but enough will.  It is inevitable.  However, it sounds like this story is trying to make us think that we have pulled off some sort of victory if we can get this added to the deal.  Perhaps, this is about to be put out there as some sort of face saving manuever in an effort to make it all more palatable to the left.  Nope, not gonna work on me.

    •  Exactly! Dems should do NOTHING on debt ceiling! (0+ / 0-)

      I'm totally serious.

      When it comes time to raise the debt ceiling, every friggin' Democrat in both houses of Congress should abstain.

      The GOP will have to raise the debt ceiling because GOP policies cause bigger deficits, not smaller ones. So make the GOP face that reality, and let'em try to explain it to the Tea Party idiots who elected them.

      There is zero chance the GOP will not raise the debt ceiling. There is 100% chance they will try to blame the debt on the Dems, if they can. We shouldn't give them that opportunity.

      "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

      by HeyMikey on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:57:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama's naivete (2+ / 0-)

    This just adds another chapter to an overlong book titled "Who Does Obama Think He's Dealing With?" Obama comes out and announces he lost negotiations because the Republicans, surprise surprise, are willing to hurt the hostage. Guess what, Barry? They RAN ON hurting the hostage. They have PROMISED to hurt the hostage in front of every live mic they could find. No one can seriously be surprised when they threaten to behead captives on the hour unless the billionaires get gold-plated jets.

    I guess Obama is finally getting the bipartisan agreement he always longed for: now Democrats AND Republicans agree he's a spineless chump.

  •  DON'T FORGET TO MENTION INTEREST RATES!!! (0+ / 0-)

    rising interest rates will undermine any stimulative effect from this deal.

    The bond market is suffering a brutal sell-off Tuesday, driving yields up sharply, as investors react to the deal between President Obama and Republican leaders to extend the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts.

    [snip]
    The Federal Reserve continues to buy Treasury notes and bonds as part of its ramped-up "quantitative easing" program announced Nov. 3. But even the Fed’s unlimited buying power obviously isn’t enough to

    Now the bond program really makes sense.... it sure looks like this tax deal has been planned going back many months.

    Stop Prohibition, Start Harm Reduction - Yes on 19

    by gnostradamus on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:31:45 AM PST

  •  force repubs to reject tax cuts (0+ / 0-)

    dems control the house.  Put poison pills into the tax cut legislation so it is the repubs not the dems who are voting down tax cuts for all.  ie govt funding for abortions.

    Let the tax breaks expire.  Blame the republicans for voting against the tax breaks.

    Next year.  Slow play the tax cuts.  negotiate 1 at a time.  The Repubs are desparate, you can see it in their bravado.  We can accomplish great things, even with a Rep. controlled house. Give them everything at once and we lose all of our leverage --> gridlock.

  •  Many hostages (<$20k income) get HIGHER taxes! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    From the New York Times and many other sources:

    "Although the $120 billion payroll tax reduction offers nearly twice the tax savings of the credit it replaces, it will nonetheless lead to higher tax bills for individuals with incomes below $20,000 and families that make less than $40,000. That is because their payroll tax savings are less than the $400 or $800 they will lose from the Making Work Pay credit."

    The increase is literally less than $100 annually for these folks, but give me a break!  To have the low income families get anything but meaningful tax SAVINGS is a joke and despicable.

    Pains and saddens me to say, but Obama must be primaried in 2012.  IF we can get someone who can at least match our reelection odds of an incumbent.

  •  I am starting to oppose this deal (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stillrockin

    I really think if they kill this deal we may be saving Obama from himself. The reality is denying millionaires their tax cut will be worth paying higher taxes.
    It would be a hardship at first but I think people would adjust fairly qucikly to a smaller paycheck. We all know come election season the GOP will blame Obama for the exploding deficit after they created it.

  •  The road to hell is paved with... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jfarelli

    Obama, with all the best intentions of compromise and "working in a bipartisan manner" made a deal with the devil. This money-grubbing GOP has backstabbed him every chance they had, didn't vote on a single Obama program in the last two years, was overfinanced in the fall election with untraced corporate dollars (probably illegal, can we say 1972, people ?) and truly held the American public hostage. And he let them get away with it. He has allowed them to do the very thing he campaigned against, and now has lost the respect of virtually everyone in America. Who does he think he pleased ? The unemployed who blame him for their troubles ? The "overtaxed" upper income brackets of millionaires and billionaires who can't stand him? Was this his way of "triangulation?"

    Does he truly think that after the two years of extensions, after the budget has an even bigger hole blown into it, that the GOP won't blame him even more ? Or that the average swing voter or a GOP voter will be so grateful and support his Presidency? Wait until the GOP get a hold of his budget for 2011 and gut the thing of social programs "which we can't afford."

    A man who does not stand on principle, is not a man nor a leader nor wise.  

    Harry Truman was quoted "I never gave anybody hell ... I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell." We need a President of character, not a gutless wonder who then tries to spin the thing as "we vs. them" after the fact.

    Very good article on Huff. Post on this same topic by the way. The President should have called the GOP's bluff...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

  •  Perry Finds out Opting out of Medicaid (0+ / 0-)
    is really not such a good idea.  ROTFL

    http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/...
    After State Finds 2.6M Texans To Become Uninsured If Texas Opts From Medicaid, Perry Drops Idea

  •  So, um, how do we get those hostages free? (0+ / 0-)

    That was the question that came to my mind first when this whole hostage analogy came out. If you want to cave into the demands to save the hostages, how do you actually get the hostages free?

    Ah, um er, stammer, ehm, uh, uh, ah, I dunno.

    EXACTLY.

    Then take your capitulation and go fuck yourself with it. You have no plan for getting the hostages free. Because there's no way to do it. We're fucked either way. So let's just fight.

    It's war. There is no reconciliation, there is no compromise, there only either win, or die.

  •  "The deal does not free the hostages" (0+ / 0-)

    So we may as well kill them, right Mr. Bowers?

    Oba-MA bumaye! Oba-MA bumaye!

    by fou on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:51:23 AM PST

  •  thoughts out side of the box (0+ / 0-)

    Who here is in a Class?(25. the classes, the higher ranks of society, as distinguished from the masses.) Who here is for Independence(2.freedom from the control, influence, support, aid, or the like, of others.)

    If you believe what most politician and most of the media say you are in a class. You can not take care of you. They will do it for you. That you can't think for yourself.  You can get it from both sides dem.and rep.

    Here take Liu Xiaobo from china he won the noble peace prize for his stand in china trying to help created a democratic over in china. Liu Xiaobo was arrested and sent to jail for 11 years because of this. His family is under house arrest so they can not go and get it for him.

    This place is what the expert are saying is what we should be here in America??

    What happen to do for yourself, to rely on one self, and self independence?

    "We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

  •  This real progressive, unemployed for two years (0+ / 0-)

    and off unemployment comp as of two weeks ago, DOES NOT have any "real progressive sympathy" for the fake deal Obama put together with the Wealth Party.  Who's kidding whom, here:  let's continue the status quo and I'll cover my ass by posing for Ruth Marcus' as the only adult in the room.  

    Oh, right, the f*king retards will never see thru that disguise.

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