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One would hope that there would be a few days given over to mourning for the dead and public good wishes for the full recovery of the injured in the aftermath of the Tucson shooting this morning. But since we live in a Twitter and Facebook and Instant Messaging world, such hope no longer gets a chance. Efforts to set the narrative are already fully under way.

Those whose violent, eliminationist rhetoric has polluted the air waves and other media for the past couple of decades, ramping itself up a little more each year, especially with the arrival of an African American in the White House, are, of course, denying that the shootings of a Congresswoman, a judge, a child and bystanders on a street corner in Arizona have anything to do with their savage words. No surprise. One thing they're good at is refusing to accept any responsibility for the consequences of this murderous talk, whether it's Timothy McVeigh blowing up a federal building or Scott Roeder assassinating a doctor.

There needs to be a proper counter to this denial. President Obama could help us in this regard. Former civil rights attorney and president of The Sierra Club Foundation Guy Saperstein offers an introduction for the President to take when he fully addresses what happened in Tucson:

My fellow Americans. It is easy to condemn violence, but condemning violence is not enough.  We need to try to understand violence and what provokes it.  This tragedy in Arizona should not be viewed as a random, isolated, or even an unpredictable, act.  It is the inevitable consequence of a culture of violence and the rhetoric of violence.  When political opponents are demonized and political disagreement is discussed in terms more appropriate to war, unstable individuals like [the Arizona shooter] are encouraged to act in violent ways.  When political opponents, like Sarah Palin, use gunsights and "targets" to identify politicians they disagree with, they must be held morally responsible for the violence such over-heated rhetoric causes.

What we're going to be saturated with for the next week or so are the inevitable false equivalencies. We'll hear, for instance, how there are "nuts on both sides." Undeniably true. But there is no ubiquitous liberal - much less, left-wing - network of talk-radio stations spouting Two Minutes' Hate 24/7. The collective voice of the right wing on radio and the Internet with its coded and uncoded calls to violence, of "2nd Amendment remedies," of cross hairs superimposed on states and on individuals simply has no visible counterpart on the left. When the right discusses the violent left, it must seek overseas examples or something from decades ago in America's past.

Michael Savage bleating on Savage Nation radio, says: "Only vigilance and resistance to this baby dictator, Barack Hussein Obama, can prevent the Khmer Rouge from appearing in this country." Erick Ericksson at Red State says: "At what point do the people ... march down to their state legislator's house, pull him outside, and beat him to a bloody pulp?" No matter how it tries, the right cannot divorce itself from the pustulence of its violent rhetoric no matter how many times its practitioners say "not me, not me" after people are murdered for taking these vile imprecations to heart. A few crocodile tears from Glenn Beck won't cut it.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:50 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  giffords words (94+ / 0-)

    ‎"We know that silence equals consent when atrocities are committed against innocent men, women and children. We know that indifference equals complicity when bigotry, hatred and intolerance are allowed to take root. And we know that education and hope are the most effective ways to combat ignorance and despair." ~ Gabrielle Giffords

    •  President Clinton apologizing for Rwanda (31+ / 0-)

      thanks to Frontline

      We did not act quickly enough after the killing began..... We did not immediately call these crimes by their rightful name: genocide. We cannot change the past. But we can and must do everything in our power to help you build a future without fear, and full of hope ...

      Change "genocide" to "political violence" and there's a perfect statement for Obama to begin with.

      •  "I call on *both* sides to stop ... (19+ / 0-)

        this hateful rhetoric. We must recognize the inherent goodness and best intentions for this nation that we all hold so dear. We must discuss issues as brothers and sisters in this great venture ... not as enemies."
          "*Both* sides blah blah blah..."

        I do not think I can bear to listen.

        I pray to God it won't happen, that Obama will astonish me. I did so want him to be a bolder leader.

        Democracy *means* Anti-Plutocracy. Democrats, be true to your Self and win!

        by Louise on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:19:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you're predicting it about right (8+ / 0-)

          While I agree w/ MB, never in a million years will Obama even consider saying something similar.  In the remote scenario that he did start considering it, Bill Daley would talk him out of it.  

          Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

          by RFK Lives on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:05:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Inherit goodness???? (9+ / 0-)

          What inherit goodness might that be?

          Paul Ross Evans - 2007 convicted domestic terrorist arrested for buying bomb making supplies at Walmart and for propane tanks wrapped in nails that he left around women's clinics.

          Jim David Adkisson - 2008 walked into a Unitarian Universalist church with a shotgun and 200 rounds of ammunition and killed two people and injured seven more. He went in with the express purpose of killing liberals.

          Shelley Shannon, - 1993 shot abortion Doctor George Tiller in both arms outside of his clinic.

          Scott Roeder - 2009 shot and killed Doctor George Tiller in a church and was convicted of murder.

          James W. von Brun - 2009 a rifle wielding white supremacist and holocaust denier, shot and killed a security guard at the holocaust museum.

          These are only a few examples of recent right wing terrorism, most of which happened AFTER 9/11 supposedly changed everything. There are literally dozens more in the last decade.

          Really, the closest thing you might get at this point without going back thirty or forty years on the left might be Andrew Joseph Stack III. But there isn't enough known about his ideology that he was left wing or right wing. The ELF, ALF and EF groups are all about property damage and while that's not right it's not the same as walking up to somebody in church with a shotgun and blowing their face off because they voted for health care reform.

          Despite the lack of attention in the media for it, there's no shortage of right wing lunatics out there who are willing to kill, maim and destroy in order to force their political agenda. I don't see any lefties using chemical weapons against the WBC (like Christian groups did to porn shops in Florida). We haven't heard of any liberals walking into Republican campaign headquarters and opening fire on the people there. We haven't seen droves of liberals showing up at town hall meetings screaming at politicians and burning them in effigy.

          Facts are facts. The rhetoric on the right isn't about political reconciliation or bipartisanship. They don't care about fixing the America that their side fucked up for the last decade.

          It is about 'taking back' 'their country' through the use of violence. They're pissed off because the darkies and liberals 'took' their country from them and are eroding their power base and they're not above using violent imagery and even outright terrorism to affect political change. There's nothing inherently good about it. They're fucking terrorists and the advocates and supporters of terrorism as long as it's terrorism to benefit THEM.

          The problem is that the people that they idolize, people like Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and Glen Beck are all crazy whackadoos with far reaching voices who are all calling for violence in one form or another against their political opponents and creating this whole imaginary universe of lies and deception (like Death Panels) that their sheep followers just blindly accept. Hell we've got Republican congressmen talking about Second Amendment Solutions and Republican governors talking about secession all the while having their hand out for federal money and bailouts!

          If Fox News, Sarah Palin, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck and Dan Savage were all left wing personalities and institutions they'd already be in jail for inciting violence.

          There is no inherit goodness in this.

        •  The hateful speech is coming only (8+ / 0-)

          from the RW crazies.

          In other countries they're put in jail.

          In our country they get their own radio or TV show.
          That's got to change.

          •  They point to Olberman and Maddow! (12+ / 0-)

            Those are the people that they point to, along with Michael Moore, their favorite "hate-spewer."

            When you see Olberman and Maddow's caricatures on the front of a national news magazine, floating next to Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity, with a headline decrying over-the-top talkers, what can you do?

            The "mainstream" media, in its eagerness to look "middle-of-the-road" has walked even farther to the right in their assessment of what is "normal" for American politics.

            The MSM can do this because they have no historical context. None whatsoever. 109- is as far back as their memories go, perhaps as far back as Kennedy. They can't remember the Gilded Age, or the 1920s, the Great Depression or the War Years or even Eisenhower Republicanism. They can't remember the scandals and lessons of decades past.

            They certainly can't teach the public about the past, or contextualize our political developments in a broader historical American context.

            Americans know so little about their own history, that they can be fed and believe the noxious nostrum Glenn Beck spoons out to them as accurate.

            Democracy *means* Anti-Plutocracy. Democrats, be true to your Self and win!

            by Louise on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:59:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ted Fucking KOPPEL points to people like... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Louise, MixedContent

              ...Olbermann and Maddow as the equivalent of the wingnut commentators. Read itand puke:

              We live now in a cable news universe that celebrates the opinions of Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly - individuals who hold up the twin pillars of political partisanship and who are encouraged to do so by their parent organizations because their brand of analysis and commentary is highly profitable.

              Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

              by expatjourno on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:43:44 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Have you read any of the posts here (0+ / 0-)

            lately.

            Try disagreeing with one of the liberals here and see how sweet and tolerant they are. And in case you haven't heard Obama is a war criminal. I am just saying the left has its own brand of crazy.

            The failure of the sixties was promoting peace with violence. A lot of those same folks hang around this blog posting advice.

            ~a little change goes a long way~

            by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 07:05:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  oh God, I think you are right (7+ / 0-)

          Obama will say something along those lines - "we must reject the extreme rhetoric on both sides!"

          And then Jon Stewart will hold a rally against violence in which he sites the crazies on both sides, like the guy who killed 6 people and tried to assassinate Rep Giffords, and the guy who wrote something nasty about Rep Boehner on DailyKos.  Same diff.

          •  Way to go MB (0+ / 0-)

            the power of suggestion has already set up yet another round of why Obama is a failure.

            ~a little change goes a long way~

            by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 07:07:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't see it that way (0+ / 0-)

              I see MB's diary as a pre-emptive strike against the false-equivalencies we know are going to get revved up in the media.  

              Unfortunately, you have to admit that President Obama at times seems to go out of his way to pay lip service to these false-equivalencies in his on-going quest to be all things bi-partisany, regardless of whether that serves the country's best interest or whether it even remotely jives with external reality.  In the process, he only ends up serving the perpetual Republican project of muddying the waters when it comes to culpability for anything.  As such, he becomes an accomplice to their propaganda machine, whether that was his intention or not.  

              I'm so sick of hearing the "both sides do it" meme.  If this mentality of false-equivalencies had been so deeply ingrained in the reporting during WWII, you might have heard "journalists" go out of their way to remind us that Jews and Nazis are "equally to blame" for the holocaust.  They'd hold up a photo of Goebbels to represent Nazi extremism, and a picture of a Jew who rebelled during the Warsaw ghetto uprising to represent Jewish extremism, and come to the happy conclusion "*both* sides need to stop their extreme rhetoric".

              Perhaps I shouldn't pre-judge what Obama will say, but so far he has shown a penchant for shying away from casting blame where blame is plainly due.  Frank Rich's piece in the NYT today is all about that.  Now, I know that as president, Obama can't really come out and name Palin or the tea-partiers specifically.  But I do hope that he at least makes some acknowledgement that 99% of the violent rhetoric is coming from one side here.  One has to have been living under a rock (or maybe inside the WH) to think there is anything equivalent on the left to the violent rhetoric we see daily coming from the right. Keith Olbermann is not Glenn Beck.  Rachel Maddow is not Michael Savage.  And liberals successfully defending their positions with well-crafted and forceful arguments using logic and reason is not "violent extremist rhetoric".  

              Rhetoric that alludes to apocalypse and gun violence has become the right's MO, and that's a problem.  And it's very specifically and exclusively THEIR problem. It would be nice if the President made some sort of acknowledgement that the sun rises in east and that the sky is blue.

              •  I agree with MB (0+ / 0-)

                 A set up to yet more liberal pre-disappointment, if the President doesn't take MB's advice. It is presumptious on his part.

                ~a little change goes a long way~

                by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 10:21:37 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  oh, I won't be disappointed (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm long since past being disappointed by this presidency.  At this point, I can only be pleasantly surprised.  

                  And I always hold out hope that I am.  Maybe having hope like that only sets one up for disillusion?  Isn't that the Clintonian notion Obama famously rejected in his stirring speech after the NH primary?  

                  Please don't tell me I just expected too much from this presidency.  I think my expectations were rather pedestrian going in, and were firmly based within the realm of the politically possible.  Nor am I just upset that all my pet political ideologies are not catered to by this WH. I don't want to put words in your mouth, missliberties, and I know that you haven't said these things specifically (though the president did in his news conference a few weeks back), but those are the two most common charges I hear from current Obama supporters leveled towards disillusioned Obama supporters...  

                  •  Not gonna tell you a thing (0+ / 0-)

                    You are a big boy.

                    All I was suggesting is MB's hubris in posting what he thinks the PResidents speech should be.

                    ~a little change goes a long way~

                    by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 11:35:11 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  fair nuff (0+ / 0-)

                      ...but there was a time when this president said he was going to make mistakes, and therefore solicited advice from his base and all other quarters.  But he seems to very little use for his base now, who are to be publicly dismissed as "the professional left", etc.  

                      Talk about hubris.

        •  Nailed it (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shockwave, expatjourno, 714day

          I'd bet good money he says something about "both sides", thus giving the media an excuse to start bashing democrats for this bloodbath.

          "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

          by Subterranean on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:01:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Blah blah blah Obama sucks blah blah (4+ / 0-)

          Seriously.  This ODS--to the point you're using this tragedy as an excuse to bash him for something he hasn't said--reveals more about your crowd's pathologies than anything else.

          "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

          by Geekesque on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:24:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then what is your prediction? (5+ / 0-)

            What do you think he will say?

            Your response to what you perceive as mindless Obama-hating certainly emerges from a good and hopeful place, even if it is more than a bit nasty in its expression.

            So you still have a lot of faith and hope. I'd love to get mine back! Can you give those of us who are downcast and lost some of that faith again?

            Give us encouragement! Tell us what Obama will say. Seriously - what do you believe his response will be?

            Democracy *means* Anti-Plutocracy. Democrats, be true to your Self and win!

            by Louise on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:36:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have no idea what he will say. (4+ / 0-)

              But I KNOW that there will be a bunch of whining here about what he says and how it's proof that he's cowardly, corrupt, unprincipled, etc.

              Just like it was predictable that the OBAMASUX crowd here would use this tragedy to whine about how corrupt, cowardly, weak, and unprincipled he is.

              I will predict that what he says will play well with the great majority of people.  He'll touch on the way our political discourse degrades and dehumanizes others, corrodes our public institutions, and renders our politics a bleak, angry cynical wasteland.

              "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

              by Geekesque on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 10:00:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ah. (4+ / 0-)

                Obama will identify "the way our political discourse degrades and dehumanizes others" - rather like the way you talk about your fellow Kossacks who you believe are in the "OBAMASUX" crowd.

                It is too bad that your obvious anger at Obama criticism has rendered your view of your compatriots as so flat and cartoonish. That erroneous approach must give you nothing but anger when you read the posts here.

                Thanks for responding.

                Democracy *means* Anti-Plutocracy. Democrats, be true to your Self and win!

                by Louise on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 10:06:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, the cartoonish behavior (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rubyr, PsychoSavannah, VickiL

                  has caused me to see them as cartoons.

                  They lose any pretense of being about policy when they start reading from the OBAMASUX hymnals as a response to human beings being shot.

                  Look at the comments in this diary. MB starts off with a thoughtful premise for a discussion, and as surely as night follows day we get the usual knee-jerk bashing.

                  "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

                  by Geekesque on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 10:20:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  We just look at what he does without... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    vigilant meerkat, MixedContent

                    ...wearing your rose-colored glasses.

                    And we judge him the same way we would judge any other dishonest politician whose policies benefit the plutocracy more than the middle class. There is nothing special about him.

                    "OBAMASUX" is as HR-able as "Obamabot"  or "Obot," by the way.

                    Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

                    by expatjourno on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:49:43 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  we know (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Geekesque

                      you judge him with tar

                      ~a little change goes a long way~

                      by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 07:03:02 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Kindly unpack that for us, if you would (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        expatjourno, vigilant meerkat

                        What does it mean to judge someone with tar?

                        Does it mean to inflict an extrajudicial tarring and feathering?

                        Is there a covert accusation of racism in your use of the word "tar?"

                        Perhaps "tar" is a euphemism for feces?

                        Since I have never before encountered the form, "to judge with tar," I can only attempt a metaphorical deciphering, the results of which are raising some questions.

                        Obviously, if the answers would make your comment HR'able, you won't want to provide them.

                        •  It relates to (0+ / 0-)

                          something the specific poster I responded to said, about tar and the President.

                          ~a little change goes a long way~

                          by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 07:48:13 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Unless I'm mistaken, ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            vigilant meerkat

                            ... the only references to "tar" in this story's comments are yours, and one by AnonObamaAid, here.

                            If you see a comment by expat that mentions tar, please link it for me.  I did a search of the page, but I wouldn't have seen any comments below a hidden comment.

                          •  The comments are in another diary (0+ / 0-)

                            by the expat.

                             But I already said that, didn't I.

                            ~a little change goes a long way~

                            by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:40:49 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, you did not. Your *next* comment does. EOM (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Here is the link (0+ / 0-)

                            buckets of tar

                            The conversation goes something like.

                            Obama isn't worth getting out of bed for.
                               Got any pitchforks?
                                 Investing in pitchfork futures.
                                   Maybe that's a jobs creation plan, making pitchforks.
                                       (expat) and buckets of tar
                                     

                            See it's all just innocent populism. Nothing to see.

                            ~a little change goes a long way~

                            by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 09:05:52 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, angry populism. (0+ / 0-)

                            The metaphor is familiar.  When those in the castle treat the peasants with contempt for long enough, they're going to see the torches and pitchforks coming up the hill.

                            I think you may be saying that this is incitement comparable to Sharon Angle's "2nd amendment remedies" and Palin's crosshairs.  If so, I disagree.

                            Because while the Secret Service is very able to protect the President from attackers who don't want to die, firearms pose a serious problem when wielded by the crazy.  Pitchforks and tar are only useful as metaphors and political-theater props (and yeah, yeah, for farming and road-building, etc.).  Only an utterly unhinged lunatic would attempt an actual attack on an elected official with a pitchfork or a bucket of tar.  Not so with guns, as we have seen.

                            Maybe that's not what you were saying, and in that case, never mind.

                            But that only covers the issue of attacking with tar.  What's this about judging with it?

                          •  Ugly rhetoric (0+ / 0-)

                            You can make your own decision on the buckets of tar comment now that you have read it.

                            ~a little change goes a long way~

                            by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 04:36:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thin skin (0+ / 0-)

                            People get angry when they feel betrayed, and may not say it with flowers.

                            If in your original "judge him with tar" comment you intended to make a point about rhetorical aesthetics, I think you could have been clearer.

                          •  the person I responded (0+ / 0-)

                            to knew exactly what I was referring to.

                            That is who the comment was intended.

                             Why you chose to get involved I am not clear. I don't take kindly to any kind of sublte racist implications these days, especially by those who express frustration and anger at our President. Nope I don't.

                            People being frustrated is no excuse, for saying stupid shit. I am tired of seeing it. And the particular poster to whom I responded has made quite ugly statements often.

                            This isn't a liberal anarchists blog after all. Where folks get frustrated and speak about frustration and extra measures to revolt against their government, etc., etc., etc.

                            ~a little change goes a long way~

                            by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:46:39 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Try email... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...if you want to say things that only make sense (even arguably) to one individual, in a public forum, don't be surprised if people not in on your private context raise questions.

                            Tarring and feathering may be a lot of things, but it is not inherently racist. No doubt racists have engaged in the practice, but in North America it was initially used by discontented colonists against British officials and loyalists, -- almost certainly a white-on-white phenomenon.

                            Tar and Feathers in Revolutionary America
                               [...]

                            By March, 1770, at least thirteen individuals had been feathered in the American colonies: eight in Massachusetts, two in New York, one in Virginia, one in Pennsylvania, and one in Connecticut. In all of these instances, the tar brush was reserved exclusively for customs inspectors and informers, those persons responsible for enforcing the Townshend duties on certain imported goods. Indeed, American patriots used tar and feathers to wage a war of intimidation against British tax collectors.

                               [...]

                            Within Whig ideology, these personal assaults were warranted only because the colonists had been denied all legal avenues of redress, and they were justified only to the extent necessary to deter enforcement of customs duties.

                          •  I am not here (0+ / 0-)

                            to appease your delicate sensibilities.

                            ~a little change goes a long way~

                            by missliberties on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:59:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hey, thanks for the tip (WTF?) EOM (0+ / 0-)
                    •  Please - look at what he does (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Geekesque

                      He works with the "other side".  

                      The names he has been called.  The presumptions made about his motives.  All here, on a democratic website.

                      It is shameful.

                      •  It's the truth. (0+ / 0-)

                        And you people are the ones making wild presumptions about his motives in the face of mountains of contradictory evidence.

                        The difference is that you care about what he says. His critics care about what he does.

                        Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

                        by expatjourno on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 11:41:31 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  MB coined the term "Obamasux" (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rubyr

                      as well as "Obamarox."

                      People who bash Obama over this tragedy are not criticizing based on policy, but rather their own emotional pathologies.

                      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

                      by Geekesque on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 07:40:39 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's not "bashing" to point out the inadequacy... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Chaoslillith, MixedContent

                        ...of Obama's false equivalency fetish.

                        It's not "bashing" to point out that one side is using eliminationist rhetoric and the other side isn't, which makes Obama's "both sides" rhetoric a bunch of horseshit.

                        Sorry to have to keep bursting your bubble with facts.

                        Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

                        by expatjourno on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 11:37:25 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  ANYONE who promotes the false equivalency meme... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        MixedContent

                        ...is going to catch holy hell around here, whether it's Jon Stewart, Matt Bai, Chris Matthews OR BARACK OBAMA.

                        Obama has the biggest bully pulpit, so to the extent that he gets MORE shit it's because he has more power to frame the issue and more responsibility to do it accurately, whether it's popular or not.

                        And again, speaking of whining, you are the one who is whining when Obama is getting the same criticism for the same thing that others are getting. I referred to "Ted FUCKING Koppel" contemptuously for this. I called Matt Bai hack for this. I'm pretty sure I expressed outrage at Jon Stewart's attempt to blur the differences when he did that stupid rally for sanity or whatever the fuck it was. So did A LOT of people.

                        So, the more I think of it, the more I think you either have a very short memory when you write:

                        People who bash Obama over this tragedy are not criticizing based on policy, but rather their own emotional pathologies.

                        Or you are just a contemptible liar. Grow the fuck up.

                        Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

                        by expatjourno on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 01:53:31 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Who cares what he SAYS...he's (0+ / 0-)

              already ACTING out the cooperation.  That's what fucking bipartisanship means.  And the way it is very angrily criticized on this site is sickening.

              •  Cooperating with whitewashing violence? (0+ / 0-)

                Cooperating with the phony equivalencies between the Left and the Right regarding language?

                There is a time for "fucking bipartisanship." There is a time for active loud condemnation, even if it means not working cooperatively with the other side.

                If this is a moral issue, there is no room for "fucking bipartisanship." It would be a lot better for us if we took the attitude of the GOP: when we say, "bipartisanship," we mean, "You are free to do it our way."

                Then, at least, the citizenry would know what we finally stand for - instead of what we are willing to give away.

                One question for you: is it the tone of the criticism that sickens you? That it is angry criticism? Or is it that there is criticism of him at all?

                Democracy *means* Anti-Plutocracy. Democrats, be true to your Self and win!

                by Louise on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 09:26:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, the actual peaceful working with (0+ / 0-)

                  members of the opposition political party.  Sans ugly rhetoric.  Actually, going out of his way to avoid the ugly rhetoric so many here seem to want him to engage in.

                  That you can't see that because you want so badly for him to come out swinging, like the other side, is very sad.  

                  The tone of the criticism disgusts me.  And your attempt to put me into a "camp" is also quite disgusting.

                  •  That's so sad (0+ / 0-)

                    You are disgusted, sickened, angry. That's really harmful - to you. It's also sad because your negative feelings blind you to all the ways in which "we" of the camp you despise so much actually share with you.

                    Perhaps you should practice what you are preaching and drop your own "ugly rhetoric."

                    Democracy *means* Anti-Plutocracy. Democrats, be true to your Self and win!

                    by Louise on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 01:28:58 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  he's not going to say that... (6+ / 0-)

        nor anything close. He's more concerned with placating business and the financial markets, but, while I gave him a 40% chance of success in bringing off an economic recovery through his acts and words, those odds just slimmed done.

        Traders don't like operating in unstable political environments, and uncertainty rears its job-killing head once again today.

        22 December 2010: Democrats have one good day in two years, and what will it cost us?

        by papicek on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:20:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You people couldn't even last 12 hours (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          missliberties, pamelabrown, VickiL

          before turning this tragedy into another "Obama is an evil bastard" whine session,

          You're less classy than John Boehner.

          "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

          by Geekesque on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:31:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No one has called him an "evil bastard" yet. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vigilant meerkat, MixedContent

            Not in this discussion. People are making the perfectly fair point that his typical rhetoric is inadequate to the situation.

            Exaggerating makes you the whiner.

            Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

            by expatjourno on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:54:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  His "typical rhetoric" is EXACTLY (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Geekesque

              what's called for.  He has worked with the republicans, to a fault for some.

              That is the definition of peaceful governing.

              That there is a contingent here that wants him to get all "teabaggerish" on the other side is disheartening, to say the least.

              •  Your comment is horseshit from beginning to end. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dallasdoc, MixedContent

                The false equivalency meme strengthens the extremists. It's not the definition of "peaceful governing."

                Show me the comments from "the contingent" who wants him to get "teabaggerish." Oh, that's right, you can't.

                People are saying that Obama should condemn the right-wing rhetoric that leads to violence and not imply that both sides do it. That's not teabaggerish and it's idiotic to claim that it is.

                Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

                by expatjourno on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 10:32:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for her quote (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rubyr, jayskew

      It's time to fight these RW crazy nut-jobs and get them off the air.

      I hope the House spends the next week seriously considering hate legislation to do just that.

      It's unconscionable for people to advocate violence against any person in our government and there should be a law against it.

      The right of Free speech does not apply to speech that is intended to hurt other people.

      •  Thanks to you for (0+ / 0-)

        understanding where the real enemies are. The diary comments are so committed to bashing Obama, that the point of the virulent hate speech has been lost.

        Also, fortune telling. Lots of people on Daily Kos are just absolutely astounding fortune tellers, seers, psychics!!!  

        Action is the only agent for change -- talking without action has never effected change anywhere, in any way, at any time.

        by rubyr on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:59:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  as if (28+ / 0-)

    but thanks for the thought MB.

    Youre right. as usual.

    maybe I'll copy and paste this and send it to the WH. maybe it'll have an effect.
    /snort

    Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe. h/t MeteorBlades

    by mdmslle on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:52:46 PM PST

  •  Perfect MB, just perfect. If the Potus won't say (40+ / 0-)

    this, other prominent people should, and not just politicians. Anyone who can grab the bully pulpit for a few should be saying this.

    Thanks.

    "People don't eat in the long run-- they eat every day." Harry Hopkins (who ran FDR's FERA program)

    by hester on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:52:58 PM PST

  •  Giffords' own words (41+ / 0-)

    speak volumes and ought to be the quote that concludes Sarah Palin's political career.

    The Media Morons are trying to go back half a century to say 'both sides are guilty'.

    Talk about historical revisionism - who knew that it was liberals spewing violent rhetoric that led to the assassinations of JFK, MLK and RFK in the 60's ?

    This is the sick pile of lies and garbage we are getting.

    •  What are we doing? (5+ / 0-)

      Poeple are dead, others seriously injured. Family members are trying to deal with this.

      We are angry and upset and we have every reason to feel that way.

      But what's the point of rushing to judgment and trying to shoehorn this horrific event into someone's brand of politics?

      More facts will be available later. In the meanwhile, I just feel like the dead and the injured be given a moment of peace.

      It is an old strategy of tyrants to delude their victims into fighting their battles for them. --FDR

      by Rube Goldberg on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:42:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  remember right after 911 (13+ / 0-)

        Everybody was saying we shouldn't politicize the terrorists attacks?  Remember?? So we took the high road and "stood behind" our president.  The Republicans, after calling on us to support our president in that awful time, proceeded to politicize the shit out of it.  

        So, I guess what I'm saying is that there comes a time to stop being so passive and permissive of the constant right wing attack.

        -4.63, -5.59 The Right-wing Noise Machine is SOOO much better at controlling the debate than we are.

        by Divertedone on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:59:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Rube, come on (4+ / 0-)

        Sarah Palin put Gabrielle Giffords behind a gunsight crosshairs while screeching 'Re-load!' and Giffords gets shot in the head today. A 9-year-old girl is dead, a Federal judge is dead, and a bunch of other people are wounded or dead.

        What I'm saying is, enough of this garbage from the likes of Sarah Palin.  It is irresponsible, it is sick, and it is inexcusable for the kind of violent rhetoric that Sarah Palin is spewing.

        She has been doing it since the 2008 election campaign.  She did it a few days ago when one of her idiotic comments - something like 'President Obama is hell-bent on destroying our great country' - was quoted in media.

        She and many others have been spewing violent rhetoric for the past two years almost without pause.  Giffords was targeted for assassination today, and enough is enough before more people end up dead !

        THAT is what I am trying to say.

  •  Not this President. (nt) (13+ / 0-)

    When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt

    by IndyRobin on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:54:06 PM PST

  •  Although we don't know his motives (22+ / 0-)

    this killer appears to be mentally ill to me.  He reminds me of paranoid schizophrenic patients that I treated when I was a medical student doing my psychiatry rotation (I am currently a neonatologist).

    His ramblings are paranoid and he is the typical age when paranoid schizophrenia surfaces in patients which is late teens to early twenties.

    Jim Manley: "Republicans are making love to Wall Street, while the people on Main Street are getting screwed."

    by Drdemocrat on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:54:27 PM PST

  •  The Right Has One Sole Response: Escalate (23+ / 0-)

    I've been making this comment here since our 2006 wins.

    I predict escalation.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:55:39 PM PST

    •  Why not? (8+ / 0-)

      I mentioned in another thread that probably the odds of a Republican winning a special election are at least even.  Assuming this was politically motivated, clearly it worked.

      •  Even? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Subterranean

        Jesse Kelly will win in a landslide, and say, in his victory, that Arizona made a clear choice.

        Count on it. I'm praying that Giffords is well enough to retain her seat, in a big "Fuck You" to those who tried to silence her.

        Proud supporter of nuclear power!

        by zegota on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:23:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  They already have. (0+ / 0-)

      The talk at FR is that the "libs" have hatefully begun to blame, them, the Right, for this guy. Isn't that just like the horrible Libs, to jump to conclusions like that?

      Why, for all they know, this guy was a false flag! He's probably actually a "lib" himself - perhaps following orders, or a "krazed Kos Kiddie" as one guy put it, or perhaps just believing that the Right would be implicated and branded as violent nuts.

      Actually, they think that is the best bet. This guy thought that he could only stop the obvious and inevitable triumph of the Tea Party in the country. The success of this new Congress this week has driven some of them really crazy - well, crazier than even normal for a Lib. In order to discredit the Right, he figured to try and make them all look like murderous, dangerous thugs. So he decided to shoot this Congresslady (one one called her). He may have even worked in her office in order to get close to her!

      He may even have been a Democrat! This makes perfect sense! He did it to discredit the GOP and the Tea Party and the Conservative movement - because he knows the Democrat Party is over forever.

      But that is just the just of nefarious thing a Lib Dem would do. That is why we must fight them even harder. We must do everything in our power to crush them. Because they are the greatest evil this country has ever faced.  

      We must utterly destroy them or this country will not survive. Molon Labe!"

      Democracy *means* Anti-Plutocracy. Democrats, be true to your Self and win!

      by Louise on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:38:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The election results emboldened them (0+ / 0-)

      Now they believe they have the American people on their side.  There will be more blood.

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:15:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wonderful MB (17+ / 0-)

    One of your best.

    Thank you.

    "make sure to put me back in the bed! I don't want to be on the ceiling!"

    by donnamarie on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:55:45 PM PST

    •  Yeah it does belong (0+ / 0-)

      to the author. Those are MB's words. He owns them.

      I assume that if the President doesn't say exactly what MB has written, there will be much gnashing of teeth, disappointment, and yet more frustration from liberals, who though they are not violent, are very disrespectful of anyone who might disagree with them.

      I will await the diary (s) in which Obama is disrespected yet again, for not saying what MB thinks he should say.

      ~a little change goes a long way~

      by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 06:54:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  There is a piece saying Dailykos is responsible (13+ / 0-)

    Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

    by Clytemnestra on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:55:56 PM PST

  •  We're never ever going to hear Obama (9+ / 0-)

    ..call out the far less than divine Sarah Palin on this.

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:55:57 PM PST

  •  CNN reporting Loughner tried out for the army (14+ / 0-)

    but was turned down.

    I wonder why.

    Jim Manley: "Republicans are making love to Wall Street, while the people on Main Street are getting screwed."

    by Drdemocrat on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:56:08 PM PST

  •  we know the people responsible for this will (28+ / 0-)

    be claiming they had nothing to do with this   Palin and her "targets"   Sharon Angle and her "2nd amendment remedies" and all the right wing  talking heads that tread on wild talk about  "taking out the libruls"  some how I get the feelings they will find a way to try and twist this and blame it on the ACLU and the rights of whacko's to  be out in public   they will point gingers at everyone but themselves and we know this

    Hannity, Rush, Beck et al will be blaming everyone else but themselves

  •  Well said, and good cap for the day. (16+ / 0-)

    I only hope that your words to their ears and spoken for all.  We need leadership and this would start us down the path.

    "Never, desist till we ... extinguish this bloody traffic, of which our posterity, will scarce believe that it suffered a disgrace and dishonor to this country.

    by Regina in a Sears Kit House on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:56:37 PM PST

  •  Thank you MB. Important points as always. eom (10+ / 0-)

    The lesser of two evils is still evil.

    by MacJimi on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:56:50 PM PST

  •  Sarah Palin's statement on the shootings (6+ / 0-)

    My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona.

    On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.

    - Sarah Palin

    P.S. Now watch this drive.

    http://www.facebook.com/...

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:57:11 PM PST

  •  We should be saying this more too (8+ / 0-)

    they are the real enemy.

  •  we're just too smart for that (7+ / 0-)

    The collective voice of the right wing on radio and the Internet with its coded and uncoded calls to violence, of "2nd Amendment remedies," of cross hairs superimposed on states and on individuals simply has no visible counterpart on the left.

    Präsidentenelf-maßschach;Warning-Some Snark Above;Cascadia Lives

    by annieli on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:58:25 PM PST

  •  drewBYEEEEEES!!!! (0+ / 0-)

    \o/ we're 8-9 record! Almost even! lols!

    I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

    by punditician on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:59:31 PM PST

  •  thank you so very much (6+ / 0-)

    I will share this diary with my friends and family. May I also post a link to it on my facebook?

  •  'zactly.... (11+ / 0-)

    Harry Reid, Pelosi and other senior democrats should echo the same words.
    Don't expect the republicans to do the right thing and don't expect the media to do anything other than draw false equivalencies.

    Only senior democrats can frame this issue properly.
    And they better hurry up.
    Leadership time.

    They call him Machete...

    by dclawyer06 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 04:59:55 PM PST

  •  Dead right. n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Louise, homo neurotic, jnhobbs

    Just spitting out emails from my sanctimonious purity-castle.

    by porchdog1961 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:00:09 PM PST

  •  They're already claiming he was a lefty. (8+ / 0-)

    'very liberal' and a 'pothead'.

    They won't just not even own up, they're determined to place the blame on the victims.

  •  Frank Schaeffer has been warning about this (7+ / 0-)

    Here is a website devoted to stopping this deadly rhetoric and containing dozens of articles predicting or warning of just this kind of event.

    Highly recommended

    "Take the victory and keep on marching"

    by SeattleProgressive on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:00:45 PM PST

  •  OT---Keith is on live.....MSNBC (7+ / 0-)
    •  Online link to MSNBC (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fivefouranonymous, bsmechanic

      I'm still waiting for President Obama to tell the voters why government is a good thing, why we need government oversight and regulations.

      by gooderservice on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:16:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just clicked it on (10+ / 0-)

      and sure enough this exact topic came up the guy from PIMa Sheriffs dept spokesman was on fire was talking about how we as a nation need to do some soul searching about the violent and vitriolic rhetoric that we are exposed to on this radio industry and on television constantly and what our kids are hearing too. (without naming names)

      I'm paraphrasing what this guy is saying and typing as fast as i can. 19 people injured and 6 deceased...2 unidentified.

      also spoke about violence toward giffords, said at one event a person who was vitriolic had a weapon drop out of their pants, mentioned the time the window was broken at her office, and there was another incident that I didn't catch.

      that said he also said suspect has a criminal background and that it's not unusual that unbalanced people and how they respond to vitriolic hate filled rhetoric and things about tearing down the gov't is a problem and that Arizona is the capital for this type of this thing.

      Arizona has become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry and giffords was the target.

      people who are unbalanced are susceptible to this type of vitriole and this guy was mentally imbalanced.

      This guy is leading the way tonight to call for this to stop....and his thoughts are spot on.

      Also says another person they are pursuing.

      It will not matter how much money was in my bank account, but the world may be a better place because I was important in the life of a child.

      by emal on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:20:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sheriff Clarence Dupnik (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2, ipsos

        catch it on msnbc...he's excellent and the press conference is ongoing.

        It will not matter how much money was in my bank account, but the world may be a better place because I was important in the life of a child.

        by emal on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:25:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  wow (20+ / 0-)

    No matter how it tries, the right cannot divorce itself from the pustulence of its violent rhetoric no matter how many times its practitioners say "not me, not me" after people are murdered for taking these vile imprecations to heart.

    powerful sentence. eviscerating indictment, and completely true.

    I'll give you this here wedding ring when you take it from my cold, dead hand.

    by homo neurotic on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:01:05 PM PST

  •  Where is Sarah, anyway? (8+ / 0-)

    In a just world, EVERY SINGLE talking head who interviews her from here on in needs to ask her if she takes any responsibility at all for her words, and for her "SarahPAC" Web site, and for the culture that SHE contributed to fostering, even with a rhetorical "call to arms."

    They ought to hound her without mercy until she denounces the shootings and the deaths. They ought to ask her if she has any feelings about a federal judge and a child, a totally innocent bystander, being murdered in cold blood. They should make her "refudiate" them and say, over and over, that she does not condone violence.

    They ought to ask her how she might feel if it was HER child. Why shouldn't they? They have given her a free pass throughout and let her skate. What they did to Howard Dean they should do to her. And we should not let up on THEM till they do!

    "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

    by Ivan on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:01:08 PM PST

  •  The right-wing are the paramilitary forces (13+ / 0-)

    for the corporatocracy. Their rights are unlimited, while the rest of us are allowed to live at their pleasure. Universal gun ownership is no defense against oppression. Freedom is the right to appear in public without having to fear being murdered on account of one's political views.

    Stupidity has a knack of getting its way-Albert Camus

    by beltane on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:01:15 PM PST

  •  MB (10+ / 0-)

    The President should say whatever he wants to... not what we want him to.

    RIP Pike Miners We will never forget

    by GlowNZ on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:01:23 PM PST

  •  check out Frank Conniff's tweet -- (6+ / 0-)

    Frank Conniff -- his tweet

    oh boy... i 'spose we will see more stuff like this.

    Faux News ruined my state

    by sc kitty on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:01:23 PM PST

  •  It's time they owned their words. (7+ / 0-)

    They'll run from their words but people should remind them at every opportunity for the rest of their careers.

    Words have consequences.

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:02:50 PM PST

  •  Hearing John McCain bleating about this today (36+ / 0-)

    made me think: Where were you when your running mate was accusing Barack Obama of "palling around with terrorists?"  Where were you when your former running mate posted targets on Rep. Giffords district?  What did you THINK would come of that kind of that rhetoric?

    Thank you, MB.  Sick tonight.  Literally sick.

    PROUD to be a Democrat.

    by noweasels on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:03:16 PM PST

  •  Excellent, MB. (10+ / 0-)

    Although I think Saperstein's commentary could work just as well without calling out Palin by name; everyone knows who he's referring to.

    As to false equivalencies, even on MSNBC we've already been treated to commentators reaching back "a generation" (trans: 40 years) to point out that people on the left have also committed political violence, as well as a question about whether Democrats use right-wing violence for their own political advantage.

    I'm about ready to throw up, but I rented a good movie today, so I think I'll go watch it instead, and hope it cleans my mind a bit.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

    by sidnora on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:03:47 PM PST

  •  MB, you are an incredibly poignant author.... (8+ / 0-)

    I agree. The POTUS, and other political Opinion Leaders should be having that conversation.

    Additionally, someone highly respected on the GOP side needs to take Limbaugh/Palin/Bachmann/et al by the scruff of their necks and give them a good shaking! Then they need to be given a little reality adjustment about what real patriotism, and real compassion consists of. Legally they can mouth-off all they want, but it sure would be nice if there were some push-back by the big wigs on the right to atleast counteract what they are saying with a bit of reason. Right now the inmates are running the asylum, and the attendants are scared shitless of them. That needs to be changed if there is to be sanity restored to our political process.

    I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Thomas Jefferson

    by Lucy2009 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:03:58 PM PST

  •  Would you please... (11+ / 0-)

    just go ahead and be our President, Meteor Blades? You're not really all that busy, are you? You could turn the night owls over to some underling and we'd all understand. I think I'll just live in that fantasy world for a bit because it's so much smarter than the real world.

  •  "Rhetoric of violence" (10+ / 0-)

    That hit home.  That IS a phrase that I hope everyone uses.

    I'm still waiting for President Obama to tell the voters why government is a good thing, why we need government oversight and regulations.

    by gooderservice on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:04:38 PM PST

  •  There are times when it would be nice (9+ / 0-)

    to be able to "recommend" FP Diaries.

    We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

    by twigg on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:05:29 PM PST

  •  Just announced - House suspending business (14+ / 0-)

    Eric Cantor just put out a statement saying that the House would suspend business for next week (which was going to include Health Care repeal) to consider these events.

    Sounds appropriate.

  •  Minority view (11+ / 0-)

    I think it would be seen as a crass move to try to score political points out of this tragedy for the President to call out Sarah Palin or the right wing by name like that.  

    Perhaps the culture of violence remarks would be appropriate.  [But it seems to me (and we won't know for sure for a while) that it may be more appropriate to talk about untreated mental illness.  From what I've seen of this guy's writings, he seems like he had a real psychiatric problem.]  

    But calling out Sarah Palin, or the right wing, when there's no evidence (as far as I can see) that this guy even cared what Sarah Palin said, or even LIKED Sarah Palin, seems to me to be an attempt to turn this tragedy into a political maneuver.  

    It would be just as bad for the right wing to call out the left because this guy was supposedly a leftist.

    I know this site hates Palin, the right, and anyone associated with them.  But until we get some kind of link between this guy's motives and Palin or the right wing, I think it's inappropriate to try to tag the political opposition with this tragedy.  The right is trying to do the same thing -- say he's a leftist -- and that's just as inappropriate.  

    This guy's rantings don't adhere to any kind of political views.  Sure, the left can pick out a phrase, or a book on his reading list, to brand him with the extremists views on the other side, but so can the right.    

    This is supposed to be a reality based site.  I do not condone in any way political rhetoric that glorifies violence.  But to use THIS PARTICULAR tragedy to try to score political points, without some EVIDENCE that this guy had some connection, or even was a follower, of the other political side, is wrong, inappropriate, and a crass use of a tragedy.  

    Wait until we find out some facts about his motivation.  Right now, to me, the best guess of the reason behind the tragedy is some kind of mental illness.  

  •  the tragedy could have been prevented. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry, auron renouille

    we need secret service protection extended to all congress people. the atmosphere has been tainted for over a year now, and no one had the bright idea to up security?

    i'd be willing to pay more taxes to provide a safe environment for both congresspeople AND constituents. it's such a shame, but i think this could have been prevented in more ways than one. calling out violent rhetoric? absolutely. but even easier -- give these guys and gals protection!

  •  Thank you, MB. (5+ / 0-)

    Well said, on this most sad of days.

    We're walking temples of noise, and when you add tender hearts to this mix, it somehow lets us meet in places we couldn't get to any other way.-Anne Lamott

    by alicia on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:08:09 PM PST

  •  Would be great (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missliberties, Wham Bam

    if those who engage in the same type of over the top rhetoric against Democrats here on this site would be policed more actively.

    I've waited for six months since your petty warning to click the button.

    This post is clear denial.

    "But there is no ubiquitous liberal - much less, left-wing - network of talk-radio stations spouting Two Minutes' Hate 24/7."

    So the fuck what. You've let this site turn into such a venue.

    Markos has lost it. He is an extremist now too. Calling conservatives the Taliban, going on TV and insinuating someone has a dead intern problem, and today tweeting about Palin as if his shit didn't stink and hadn't used similar imagery.

    Yes Palin and her whole ethos is vindictive and repugnant, but that doesn't justify or excuse the behavior here on this site.

    Half the idiots on this site spew hateful rhetoric all the time and you and the admins happily let it continue.

    FFS mattman and his extremist crew were recommending alex Jones posts yesterday, using language like "Problem, Reaction, Solution" calling for pitchforks in the streets straight, out of the extreme right.

    Every single day there are hundreds of posts and even diaries on the wreck list full of horseshit CT that would have been laughed off this site pre 2008.

    Rove + Sweeden = Assange  HAHAHAHAHAH

    Maybe the site owner, and admins will use this as a learning experience and realize it takes two to tango.

    Blech.

    •  No one, absolutely no one is keeping you here. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rlharry, 3goldens, Philoguy, Danali

      If you enjoy staying here and bitching about the owner of the site and representatives, I assume depending on how you conduct yourself, they'll let you stay here.

      You seem very unhappy with the way this site is run.  If it were me, I sure as hell wouldn't stay here.

      I'm still waiting for President Obama to tell the voters why government is a good thing, why we need government oversight and regulations.

      by gooderservice on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:11:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You (10+ / 0-)

      political-pictures-obama-get-the-f-out-oh-snap
      .

      .

      This is no way to get markos to make you his personal website advisor.

      America legalized torture before they legalized marijuana.
      Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

      by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:13:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wow, take a chill pill (6+ / 0-)

      There's a big difference between what you deem "hateful rhetoric" and "violent rhetoric."  Some people on this site can certainly be hateful but it's usually shot down quickly.  I've never seen any violent messaging on this site that isn't immediately shot down with prejudice before the offensive post is hidden either by HR's or simply removed by an admin.

      As for Markos' American Taliban, there's certainly a lot of things the American religious right do that the Muslim extremists would embrace.  The comparison is not that far off although Markos himself always explains that there are certainly differences in degree.  He's not saying that American religious extremists are beheading people but a lot of the morals and thinking of the extremist American Christians and Muslim extremists are very similar.

      Finally, you do realize that anyone can become a member of this site and post diaries.  That does not mean every crazy wacked-out diary author represents the site's views.  I repeat again that I've been a member here since the very early days and I've never, ever, seen any sort of violent rhetoric that lasts more than a few moments before it's nuked by TU's and/or admins.

      Anyhow, sorry everyone for feeding the obvious troll.  I just wanted to get in the habit of shooting down morons like this and their false equivalences.  

      [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

      by rabel on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:23:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ok (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        missliberties

        1st. I know what markos wanted to say but when it was mis-characterized he doubled down and said... they are so, instead of saying..that's not what I meant.

        Markos has spent the past two years marginalizing himself and has allowed his site to wallow in, and embrace that fringe status.

        1. Hateful rhetoric and violent rhetoric are the same fucking thing.

        Someone doesn't say (DEM name here) needs to be stopped by any means necessary but instead says, DEM Name is destroying this country, has sold us out to torturers and murderers and unless you are very lucky you too will be his next victim.

        You're trying to tell me there is a distinction with a difference?

        •  Wild eyed speculation (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rlharry, wsexson

          It's impossible to correct your beliefs on any of this when all you're doing is throwing out a bunch of nonsense.

           Provide some examples of what you're talking about and then there can be some sort of dialog.  Until you show what it is you're talking about with concrete examples demonstrating how this site has become "fringe" and examples of people on this site promoting violence you're just another whacked-out conspiracy nut.

          "I hate Sarah Palin" is absolutely, distinctly different from "Sarah Palin should be treated to some 2nd amendment remedies."  But you're just making stuff up so it's pointless to respond to you until you can point to examples of what you're talking about.

          [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

          by rabel on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:56:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well put, rabel n/t (0+ / 0-)

        "The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome, to endure, to transform, to love and to be greater than our suffering."

        by rlharry on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:13:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Pretty amazing comment from someone who... (19+ / 0-)

      ...himself had to be warned about using violent rhetoric just nine months ago.

      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:30:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Someone DOES have a dead intern problem (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shpilk, rabel, rlharry, wsexson, bagman, esquimaux

      There's never been an answer to how Lori Klausitis died. Could have been natural causes, for all we know -- maybe she bumped her head and caused a massive brain hemmorhage, or maybe an unknown heart defect leading to coronary arrest. But if it was natural causes, why wasn't that revealed? Could have been a cautionary tale to other young people.  

      And if you compare the aims of some on the Right with the Taliban, there are a lot of similarities albeit with the Law of Moses replacing Sharia Law as the goal.

      The jury's still out on Assange, but if you're going to make your living pissing off governments, the last thing you should be doing is giving them a reason to slam your ass in jail, even if it's just jaywalking to get to the local newsstand or going 5 miles over the posted speed limit. But then again, being a crusader doesn't exempt one from being an asshole, especially when it comes to women.

      So, you'd like to see Markos, MB, and the other Powers That Be wield a heavy hand and determine what is "acceptable" posting and what isn't? They do that sort of thing at Redstate and FreeRepublic, where anything that doesn't toe the party line is deleted and the user quickly banned. I like what we've got better -- sure, we get the crazies but the community is often pretty good at shouting them down.

      Now to try to end the wars we ask our gay and straight soldiers to fight. -- Chris Hayes

      by Cali Scribe on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:34:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dumbass. (4+ / 0-)

      this site has 250,000 users.

      Rush Limbaugh claims 10 million daily listeners.
      Beck has over a million.
      Palin has over a million FB friends.

      Nothing this site does equals that degree of impact. Period.

      If it did we would have single payer health care, no afghan war, gay marriage, no patriot act, bankers in jail, a 21st century CCC, a 50% tax rate for millionaires and trade equity.

      Get real.

      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe. h/t MeteorBlades

      by mdmslle on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:47:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yea of course (0+ / 0-)

        nobody is paying attention so who cares what we say?

        When you signed up did you feel the same way about the reach and impact of this site?

        •  Yes. It's a blog. It's not the real world. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpecialKinFlag, ohmyheck

          cNvassing and other community involvement makes it perfectly clear how little this site matters in the big picture. Most dems I speak with, even those active in politics and activism, have never heard of daily kos. Honest.

          We are a very very very very small microcosm of a portion of the democratic party.

          Thats the truth.

          I came here and stay here because of the comeraderie, discussion and things I can learn. The site can be a force for actual organizing. And has been. But mostly it's just a blog community. That's the reality.

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe. h/t MeteorBlades

          by mdmslle on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:04:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  And BTW (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpecialKinFlag, ohmyheck

          what impact has the site had in actual terms, since you mention it?

          In all of the issues I cited above, our rantings here, along with the activities of various actual leftist organizations like moveon (which daily kos is not) has gotten what exactly?

          My point is proven by the very fact that virtually everything we've been screaming about here has NOT happened. And with a Dem president and a Dem congress.

          And dkos isn't a PAC or activist organization! Moveon has 5 million members. Unions? Amother several million.  Daily kos is 250,000 bloggers.

          Tell me again about how important we are, would you?

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe. h/t MeteorBlades

          by mdmslle on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:12:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Oh yes, you're (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rlharry, wsexson

      absolutely right!  There are ubiquitous calls for second amendment remedies here on dailykos!  Not a day goes by when there aren't numerous threats of violence!

      /snark

      •  Words to live by (0+ / 0-)

        When political opponents, like Sarah Palin, use gunsights and "targets" to identify politicians they disagree with, they must be held morally responsible for the violence such over-heated rhetoric causes.

        From your mouth to Kos's ear?

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Who to primary? Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week. I've bolded members of the Blue Dogs for added emphasis.
        ...
        Giffords, Gabrielle (AZ-08)

    •  don't become the trolls you loathe. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rabel

      "I drank what?!" -Socrates

      by bagman on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:52:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This may have been an attack from the left (0+ / 0-)

      This is obviously breaking news so all news info has to be taken with a grain of salt.  In addition, the shooter is presumably several bushels short of a full load so it would not be surprising if he radically changes his political philosophy 6 times before breakfast most days.

      That said, see http://www.nytimes.com/...

      Another former high school classmate said that Mr. Loughner’s politics were left of center, and that he may have met Representative Giffords, who was shot in the head outside the Safeway supermarket, sometime before the attack.

      “As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy,” the former classmate, Caitie Parker, wrote in a series of Twitter feeds Saturday. “I haven’t seen him since ’07 though. He became very reclusive.”

      “He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in ’07, asked her a question & he told me she was ‘stupid & unintelligent,’ ” she wrote.

      Giffords is what most people here would call a "Conservadem".  She supports restrictions on immigration and gun rights.  She voted against Pelosi for speaker.

      Be careful about making allegations about motives and whose political rhetoric is responsible before all the facts are out because they may look pretty silly in a few days.

      •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

        It so hard to lie on twitter.

        All the spew from his utube is connected to far right wing dogma, including the rants about language being shoved on us by the govt.

        ~a little change goes a long way~

        by missliberties on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:23:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I said take it with a grain of salt (0+ / 0-)

          You are jumping to conclusions on inadequate evidence.

          We'll find out a lot more about this guy over the next week or so and then we're know what to think.

          •  Mark Polock (0+ / 0-)

            of the SPLC has specifically linked his rantings to various right wing leaders.

            I'll take his word for it.

            ~a little change goes a long way~

            by missliberties on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:34:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So quickly? While we still know so little? (0+ / 0-)

              And what are the odds that the SPLC would link his words to left wing leaders?

              •  So quickly? (0+ / 0-)

                The u tube clips were availabe hours ago.

                If you have studied hate groups it is easy to recognize the various conspiracies regarding language, govt vs individual, currency etc.

                Polok said out loud in an interview that the shooters postings are all similar to right wing hate groups.

                Why do you keep insisting that this is left wing? It isn't. And it's obvious that it isn't. How many liberals do you know that insist that health care is a govt takeover and want to go back to the gold standard.

                ~a little change goes a long way~

                by missliberties on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:50:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Now you are just lying (0+ / 0-)

                  Why do you keep insisting that this is left wing?

                  I challenge you to cite where I insisted anything about this man's motivations.

                  •  Plant a flag on a hill (0+ / 0-)

                    and defend it.

                    The shooter is not left wing. You keep bringing up that he could be. You keep mentioning the possibilitiy, as in you keep insisting.

                    Well actually yes we do know he wasn't left wing. As Mark Polok has made very clear.

                    ~a little change goes a long way~

                    by missliberties on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 08:01:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sorry... I disagree (0+ / 0-)

                      You're picking and choosing your sources to believe based on your preference for results.  (BTW, you haven't even posted a link to Polok's comments despite expecting me to take them as gospel!)

                      Right now we don't know if he's right, left, or just raving monster loony with tropes from both.

                      •  You can find his interview (0+ / 0-)

                        on MSNBC. Keith O interviewed him this evening.

                        I doubt that will satisfy you, as you seem quite vested in insisting that the shooter is left wing.

                        I am not picking and choosing my sources, I am using my own brain and knowledge and understanding of political realities to say that the shooter is influenced by right wing hate.

                        Your strident opposition to what is obvious leaves me wondering why you are pretending to be so 'objective', unless you find some of the right wing conspiracies agreeable to your own point of view.

                        ~a little change goes a long way~

                        by missliberties on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 08:13:54 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  You know what (0+ / 0-)

      compared to them, our shit doesn't stink. They have an epidemic of violent rhetoric. We don't.

      That's a fact. Deal with it.

      liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

      by RockyMtnLib on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:09:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  hate speech here is the same as it always was and (0+ / 0-)

      will be- no big fucking deal.

      internet is small potatoes compared to radio got a slow connection now, like large parts of the country (but i get great radio), but let me set you straight-

      MB is right

      But there is no ubiquitous liberal - much less, left-wing - network of talk-radio stations spouting Two Minutes' Hate 24/7

      internet is still fairly free and democratic- you can take it or leave it and it's easy to skip around. same with print. same with TV.

      the talk radio monopoly is an unprecedented and coordinated propaganda effort and the collective left has no clue how much it dominates media and politics because it gives them a headache to listen to it. so they give it a free speech free ride.

      any hate speech here is the same as it always was and will be. until it is magnified and coordinated from a giant unchallenged and corporate funded soapbox to intimidate political foes it is just free speech.

      Progressives will lose all major messaging battles until they picket the limbaugh/hannity megastations and boycott those stations' local sponsors.

      by certainot on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 10:38:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  SIX MORE MONTHS! SIX MORE MONTHS! SIX MORE MONTHS (0+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      Hidden by:
      Chaoslillith

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      I've waited for six months since your petty warning to click the button.

      Same shit, different year.

      by BentLiberal on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 02:03:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It won't come from Obama. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subterranean, 3goldens, DavidHeart

    There needs to be a proper counter to this denial.

    He will, like all of the other pols, condemn hate speech. When it gets specific, he'll assure us nobody really meant what they said. The Bachmans, Palins, and Angles of the world just need us to reach across their second amendment aisle and hold their hands.

    •  Pima County Sheriff, Clarence Dupnik (8+ / 0-)

      A veteran of over 50 years in local law enforcement, Clarence W. Dupnik has served as the Sheriff of Pima County, Arizona, since his appointment in February 1980. County voters endorsed the choice nine months later by electing him to his first four-year term and ratified that decision by re-electing him six additional times.

      Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

      by Scarce on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:18:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  "That may be free speech," he said (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      navajo, Danali

      "But it's not without its consequences."

      PROUD to be a Democrat.

      by noweasels on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:33:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And yet Erick Erickson's getting a new megaphone (0+ / 0-)

      Just read that WSB, the biggest talk station in Atlanta and one of the biggest in the south, has hired Mr. Redhate himself to be on the air nightly from 9 until midnight, beaming 50,000 watts of the rhetoric of violence out over most of the East Coast.

      Maybe they'll rethink that choice after today.

      I doubt it, though.

      You don't get to say, "I support the First Amendment, but..." (h/t Chris Hayes)

      by ipsos on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:35:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This sounds like an opportunity for a campaign (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ipsos

        to influence the people who hired him to reconsider. Even if that campaign fails (since the station is in deep red territory), the ownership should hear from people who object to his type of rhetoric.  Put them on notice that any violent rhetoric will not be tolerated and sponsors will be boycotted.  Picket the station.  Write letters to the editor.  Make them aware that they no longer have a free ride to incite violence.

  •  Obama better call out Palin and Beck BY NAME. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry, DavidHeart
    I doubt his advisers or he have the courage, but I want to see Obama call those two hate-mongers out.  Hiding behind euphemisms and "those who would" is giving the true culprits an unconscionable pass.  Call them out and make them accountable in public discourse.
  •  If Pres. Obama does anything of the sort (6+ / 0-)

    he'll be accused of politicizing the event, and hordes of the far-right faithful will claim victimization.

    Gun sales will soar.

    The politics of white resentment has gone feral.

    "The Euro-American state is a cowardly lion, a weeping bully, a plaintive lover to finance capital." Lauren Berlant

    by absolute beginner on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:11:36 PM PST

  •  A-fucking men (6+ / 0-)

    Well said MB.  Very well said.

    I'd rather die than give you control ~ Trent Reznor

    by JustJennifer on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:12:06 PM PST

  •  I believe this is called a tipping point. (6+ / 0-)

    In France they say <<Au barricades!>>. That means "to the streets".

    I am no good at this, but if a protest is organized, wherever it is in this country, I will be there. We need to be heard now.

    British Petroleum: I think that means it's foreign oil.

    by Bensdad on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:12:42 PM PST

  •  Anger when he described events as "unspeakable". (8+ / 0-)

    When in fact there are many speakable words on the subject.

    I speak of assassination. Defined as killing for political motive.

    I speak of Angle's "Second amendment solution" comments.

    I speak of Palin's "Lock and Load" as political slogan.

    I speak of Palin's gun sights graphic on this assassination attempt.

    I speak of Beck's verbal hate crimes again Americans.

    They intend to silence us with their threats of violence. I for one will never back down.

    This is a speakable event.

    Yes we can -- unless Republicans say we can't? (Wisdom of the Angry Mouse)

    by DavidHeart on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:13:10 PM PST

    •  your list is not exhaustive, unfortunately (9+ / 0-)

      there is Bachmann
      and the whole GOP who did not consistently tamp done the rethought, call it out, consistently and make it known that it is NOT acceptable

      instead they road it for political benefit

      the blood is on their hands

      I'm waiting for the moment when someone says "She wasn't following the will of the people."

      Because at that moment there is NOTHING different between them and the clerics in Pakistan who told everyone that they would be targetted for killing if they mourned or show sympathy for the assasinated governor of Punjab.

      Bumper sticker seen on I-95; "Stop Socialism" my response: "Don't like socialism? GET OFF the Interstate highway!"

      by Clytemnestra on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:24:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  those are the easy ones, there's plenty of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rlharry, DavidHeart

      'moderate Republicans' who do not speak out against this line of rhetoric: they enable it with their silence.

  •  Has Obama canceled his interview (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi, 3goldens, jds1978

    with O'Reilly yet?  

    Obviously he should, and if he doesn't, shame on him.

    I'm still waiting for President Obama to tell the voters why government is a good thing, why we need government oversight and regulations.

    by gooderservice on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:13:21 PM PST

    •  or use it to shred OReilly (6+ / 0-)

      and all the hate media of the Ailes Murdoch empire of spew.

      he could do that, and I think since it is Live it would be interesting.

      He could ask Bill about this incident and the target map of Palin's and wedge him into a corner. Or something.

      •  I'd love to see him do that, box (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LokiMom, OleHippieChick

        O'Reilly in about Palin's target shooting, but I don't believe that's appropriate at this point, nor the right venue.

        He should cancel, and it would be the perfect time to explain why he won't partake in an interview from a media outlet who... and use words similar to this:

        It is the inevitable consequence of a culture of violence and the rhetoric of violence.  When political opponents are demonized and political disagreement is discussed in terms more appropriate to war, unstable individuals like [the Arizona shooter] are encouraged to act in violent ways.  When political opponents, like Sarah Palin, use gunsights and "targets" to identify politicians they disagree with, they must be held morally responsible for the violence such over-heated rhetoric causes.

        I'm still waiting for President Obama to tell the voters why government is a good thing, why we need government oversight and regulations.

        by gooderservice on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:24:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bill O'Reilly Will Run Circles Around Obama. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, wsexson, The Dead Man

        Remember Obama can't say anything against Republicans, Right Wingers, or the Tea Party as he is actively recruiting their assistance in his 2012 Re-election campaign.

        250 is the new 180

        by kerplunk on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:25:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Right-wing radio is a big nightmare for this (8+ / 0-)

    Country. I'm not in favor of censorship. But Americans need to tune this S.O.B's out.

  •  This does need a stronger response (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry

    Than we're likely to actually get. And it needs to offend some of the groups that always want to play the false equivalency game of both sides do it. No, both sides don't do it, and the hateful rhetoric is a big part of the reason it is largely directed at only one side of the political spectrum. This attack today needs to make the tea partiers very uncomfortable, and for a good long time.

    Do Pavlov's dogs chase Schroedinger's cat?

    by corwin on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:13:58 PM PST

  •  I don't think you need to write PBO's speeches (6+ / 0-)

    for him. He does just fine.

    Just reminds me why I don't come here too much anymore.

    When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. - Sinclair Lewis

    by RhodaA on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:14:01 PM PST

  •  Whether in a crowded theater or not (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gary in NY, rlharry, Phil S 33

    there are consequences when you tell "Fire!"

    "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:15:48 PM PST

  •  Wow----sherriff holding pressor lets loose (19+ / 0-)

    on "vitriol' taking place----and AZ "is the capitol" of it.

  •  I'd Rather Wait Than Be Wrong (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence

    There are, unfortunately, too many examples of Right wing violence in this country.

    Let's not be wrong about this guy. So far we know very little.

    Here is his book list:

    "Books:
    I had favorite books: Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Pulp, Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver's Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno."
    -- His YouTube page

    Hardly your stereotypical Teabagger reading list.

    I know this isn't a popular sentiment at the moment, but the suspect, judging from initil reports, might simply be crazy.

  •  GOP & FoxNews will be going after this sherrif (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, emal, 3goldens, LokiMom, Dahankster

    that's for sure.  He's a traitor, liberal!!!!

  •  How can it be? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missliberties, OleHippieChick

    Someone can do hard time for looking at child pornography ( not making it, or paying for it, or in any other way  promoting it)  Yet a plethora of pundits can incite violence against those esposing different political views and there is no consequence?

  •  Maybe Obama will take a page from the (16+ / 0-)

    Tucson sheriff, who just called out right wing hate media at a press conference. Twice.  

  •  Enough. (13+ / 0-)

    The president should NOT be engaging in this type of rhetoric at this time.  The Sheriff on TV right now is doing just fine and the proper role for this discussion (for now) is below the office the POTUS.

  •  Somebody dropped a gun out their pants at one (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emal, sancerre2001

    her campaign events, ahhhh, another liberal.

  •  BRAVO Clarence Dupnik, the sheriff holding the (27+ / 0-)

    presser, saying that AZ has become the capitol for bigotry and hate. THat the vitriol on TeeVee & radio 24/7 is especially dangerous when heard by unstable individuals.

    He's really letting loose about the hate speech and the vitriol.

    NOCE WORK SHERIFF

    "People don't eat in the long run-- they eat every day." Harry Hopkins (who ran FDR's FERA program)

    by hester on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:19:11 PM PST

  •  Osama Bin Laden must be innocent then too.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nicethugbert

    ...because he only talked about committing terrorist acts on video and websites but didnt actually make the 9/11 terrorists take action. Right. Im sure thats how the right feels since they are making the same case for Sarah Palin's clean hands.

  •  Sheriff Dupnik (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, emal, nicethugbert

    read your statement about what Obama should say. Listen to what he's saying in this press conference!

  •  This sheriff surprised me, pleasantly so (15+ / 0-)

    He said Arizona is becoming the capital for hatred and bigotry and that people's loose words help inspire people like this shooter.  It's good to see the truth so plainly spoken by law enforcement.  Maybe, just maybe, some of the wingers will realize how far they've gone and pull back.  However, MB is right, those who have used violent rhetoric must face judgment for their actions.

    "In 10 years, I've never seen the press lay a glove on him." Chris Matthews on John McSame

    by wolverinethad on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:21:09 PM PST

  •  Some words that Speaker Boehner might use (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shpilk, rlharry, 3goldens, LokiMom, Danali
    DemocratIC Party, not "Democrat" Party, which he used as recently as late last week, right after being sworn in as speaker. I consider the use of this epithet as implicitely inciteful, because it intentionally disrespects and disparages his political adversaries in a way that in some sick peoples' minds makes taking violent action against them that much more acceptable.

    If he doesn't stop using this epithet, he's an idiot and a hypocrite.

    "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

    by kovie on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:21:41 PM PST

  •  Obama Ain't Gonna Say Anything Counter. He Is (0+ / 0-)

    actively seeking support from these people.  He's gotta continue to go along with their agenda to get votes in 2012.

  •  Wow...... (10+ / 0-)

    The Sheriff just called Arizona "mecca for prejudice and bigotry" and called out radio and tv hate speech.

    I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

    by gtghawaii on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:21:51 PM PST

  •  Dupnik calls SB1070: "stupid, unwise, and racist" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry, wsexson, annieli

    ..and has never enforced it.

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:22:19 PM PST

  •  Why didn't this sheriff run for Governor? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, rlharry, sancerre2001

    Don't know what party he's from, but man he's a straight shooter.

  •  just watch if (4+ / 0-)

    Obama does not put the "the" and "is" in the right spot for the kos folks, no matter what he says we never ever ever be right for the PL.

    "This country was founded on compromise. I couldn't go through the front door at this country's founding" - President Barack Obama

    by AAMOM on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:24:44 PM PST

  •  God Bless Clarence Dupnik the sheriff: (4+ / 0-)

    from Crooks & Liars

    In Arizona, Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, who has been a cop for 52 years, says it will definitely lead to racial profiling. He told local TV station KGUN9 that the law is “racist,” “digusting,” and “unnecessary,” and he won’t enforce it. While the law may not explicitly mandate profiling, Dupnik said that there’s no way to enforce it without doing so; the “lawful contact” provision will become nothing but a “flimsy excuse” to target certain people:

    "People don't eat in the long run-- they eat every day." Harry Hopkins (who ran FDR's FERA program)

    by hester on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:24:54 PM PST

  •  I would like just ONE rightie to sight ONE (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stevej, rlharry, sancerre2001

    example of ONE Democratic crazy person who opened fire on ONE Congressperson since the Civil War.  Just.  One.

    Can't do it, 'cause there isn't one.  Not.  One.  Democrats resort to making speeches, marching in unison, sitting down to stop traffic or block a building.  They don't take guns to townhall meetings, nor do they open fire on anyone they disagree with, let alone KILL CHILDREN who get caught in their crosshairs.

    The right wing in this country has crossed a number of lines, but this one should herald a turning point for this country.  We, the American people, must stand up and say ENOUGH.  It's UNAMERICAN to shoot your opposition, you cowards and freaks!  NO MORE!!!  Beck, Rush, Palin, Fox, this blood is on YOUR HANDS!  Stop the violent rhetoric now!

    Blatant Congressional disrespect for a sitting president is a subtle form of treason.

    by Little Lulu on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:25:16 PM PST

  •  Keith really does not have to say too much.... (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emal, stevej, rlharry, sancerre2001, Danali, moonpal

    Sheriff Dupnik said it all.  

  •  From reports I've seen (0+ / 0-)

    so far this shooter seems like an insane person.    Where is his  connection to any conservative movement except in his own twisted brain?

  •  Words he might choose, but never will. (6+ / 0-)

    First of all, it would be "backward-looking." Second, false equivalencies are a way of life for Obama.

    I'm sure he will call for calm on both sides. Respect for our differences on both sides.

    Bleh.

    Obama stands with war profiteers, torturers, Wall Street, health insurance companies, Big PhARMA, Big Oil and Social Security-haters. Good at photo ops, though.

    by expatjourno on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:26:13 PM PST

  •  I think Obama was right to say what he said (9+ / 0-)

    I think that's how leaders should act and behave.  And how elected officials should react to a terrible situation like this.  But I am not the president.  I am not an elected official.  

    The rhetoric of the GOP and the right wing in this country are out of control.  And it's not just the rhetoric either.  Office vandalisms of Congressmembers including Representative Giffords, campaign events at shooting ranges that consist of target practice against various Democratic opponents, Sarah Palin's rifle bullseyes against Democrats on her target list, people showing up with guns at campaign events.  It's very disturbing and what happenned to Gabby Giffords (as well as the other victims) is absolutely horrifying.  

    •  I have no objections to his first... (9+ / 0-)

      ...response. Focus on the victims was entirely the right way to go. I was talking about when he "fully addresses what happened."

      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:52:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, please forgive me then (0+ / 0-)

        :)  

        I think whatever happens, Obama has to stand above the fray and act like a neutral leader.  Let others point out the violent actions of right wing crazies.  

      •   If you have objections to how (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fcvaguy

        he's performing his job as President, I suggest you attempt to unseat him. You would have at least the DK community vote. Or, you could just keep writing articles objecting to him. sigh

        •  Sigh, indeed. Could you show where... (12+ / 0-)

          ...in this piece I have written anything objecting to the President? Could you show me anything I have written anywhere at any time that has not treated the Barack Obama respectfully? Making suggestions for how the President might do things - or do them differently - is exactly what he told us to do during his campaign as you may recall.

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:36:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You object in this comment... (0+ / 0-)

            "I have no objections to his first... I was talking about when he "fully addresses what happened.""

            I don't expect you to give a second thought to what I suggested you do....challenge him. You have not in my opinion disrespected the President, but you've critcized and objected to what he deemed an appropriate response in this matter today. Your suggestion to him as to what to say and how to say it reeks of laziness and hypocrisy.

            Challenge him in a campaign. Challenge him by action. Object by action not words.

            •  No. I didn't object. He made a response... (9+ / 0-)

              ...today. And I thought it was an appropriate response. I was suggesting - by offering the words that someone else proposed - how he might respond in the future when he fully addresses the issue. Obviously, he's not going to do that in the first couple of days.

              As for challenging him for public office, you're suggesting that anybody who offers any advice whatsoever to a politician should be prepared to run against that politician or they're hypocritical and lazy? I think you must be very new to politics. Many of us who are not new to it have challenged Presidents and other politicians for decades without being told we shouldn't do so unless we're willing to run against those elected officials.

              Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:14:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  By challenge do you mean your membership in SDS? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fcvaguy

                Not new to politics at all, just not an extremist for any side.

                •  So, during the 1960s, you were... (8+ / 0-)

                  ...cheering for LBJ every time he sent another 100,000 troops to Southeast Asia?

                  Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:25:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Is that what you meant by challenge? (0+ / 0-)

                    That's your sole claim to fame in challenging the government? If so, that's weak and cowardly.

                    I haven't cheered the US's policies of involvement in any conflict/war/altercation/whatever.

                    •  What DID you do? I went to prison... (14+ / 0-)

                      ...for 13 months for refusing induction into the Army rather than leave the country or do what Dick Cheney and other chickenhawks did. But I didn't run against LBJ? Did you? Because that is what you should have done given the implication of your comments so far.

                      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                      by Meteor Blades on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:49:59 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Pivot much? (0+ / 0-)

                        This was a discussion about your idiotic suggestions to the President, but I see that you have tunnel vision. It always comes back around to you, doesn't it? That's typical of your generation.

                        •  Ageism is probably the least of the dangers you (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          wsexson, jnhobbs, ArthurPoet

                          pose to critical thought. I suggest you follow the advice inherent in your username: you should beware of yourself.

                          Meteor Blades seems to do an outstanding job of community moderation despite the abject failure to be perfect.

                          by catilinus on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 08:24:07 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  You know, I've followed this thread, (8+ / 0-)

                          and I have to tell you that it is your comments that seem to pivot left and right, with incoherency and convoluted logic. Talk about "tunnel vision" ...

                          Here, let's attempt to review a few of your "coherent" comments:

                          bewareofme wrote this:

                          If you have objections to how (0+ / 0-)
                          he's performing his job as President, I suggest you attempt to unseat him.

                          Yet, MB only expressed a polite suggestion on a future action/words that he'ld respectfully like to see, words that would speak to the hate rhetoric of the Republican Right? And you have a problem with that, why?

                          And, where did you get this "suggest you attempt to unseat him" from? Now, that was a true non-sequitur, if I ever saw one. I get the distinct impression that you are having a conversation in your head with someone else who is making some sort of an indication that they want to "attempt to unseat him" ... just my impression.

                          Anyway, let's continue ...

                          Meteor Blades wrote this:

                          Making suggestions for how the President might do things - or do them differently - is exactly what he told us to do during his campaign as you may recall.

                          And in response, you suggest MB should "challenge him" ...

                          bewareofme wrote this:

                          I don't expect you to give a second thought to what I suggested you do....challenge him. You have not in my opinion disrespected the President, but you've critcized and objected to what he deemed an appropriate response in this matter today. Your suggestion to him as to what to say and how to say it reeks of laziness and hypocrisy.

                          And my first question is, in what way do you suggest that MB should "challenge the president"? Seems to me tbat you are looking for a conflict here. ... like you are looking for MB to "challenge him" in a way that you can denounce. ... like you are looking for a fight/conflict ... where there really is none, not coming from MB, that is.

                          TO WIT:

                          1. MB did not "criticize" the president. Suggesting a future action/words does not imply a criticism of today.
                          1. MB did not objected to what he the president did. Suggesting a future action/words does not imply an objection of what was doen today.
                          1. MB did not say anything, from what I can see, that either "reeks of laziness and hypocrisy" or suggests that the POTUS' actions today "reeks of laziness and hypocrisy." Suggesting a future action/words does not imply that the POTUS was displaying laziness or hypocrisy.

                          bewareofme wrote this:
                          By challenge do you mean your membership in SDS?

                          Talk about "pivoting" .... lol ~ were you just waiting to bring up "SDS" ... baiting him into that when you brought up "challenge him" in the first place? Really, dude, you are rather transparent in your game.

                          bewareofme wrote this:

                          Is that what you meant by challenge? (0+ / 0-)
                          That's your sole claim to fame in challenging the government? If so, that's weak and cowardly.

                          I haven't cheered the US's policies of involvement in any conflict/war/altercation/whatever.

                          RE: "weak and cowardly"
                          Now, you are gonna have to explain what you believe is not "weak and cowardly."

                          And, for the record, all questions or comments expressing critique posted on an open forum are a "challenge." which some believe takes huge courage to begin with, and MB's doing 13 months of jail in protest against a war, well, that takes huge fucking courage, in my book. You wanna tell me what you've done to stand up for your convictions?

                          "weak and cowardly" .... fucking please!

                          ~we study the old to understand the new~from one thing know ten thousand~to see things truly one must see what is in the light and what lies hidden in shadow~

                          by ArthurPoet on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:02:19 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow! Thanks for your hard work on this comment (0+ / 0-)

                            impressive, but futile. Why, if you think my comments are incoherent and represent convoluted logic, do you entertain them? Just curious because that seems crazy to me.

                            One defense: MB heralded himself an SDS member in a comment either upthread or in another diary today. I didn't know that about him, and it explains a lot to me in my fucked up, incoherent and logically convoluted mind. He put that out there and it intrigued me. So, pivoting, I was not.

                          •  Well, I had a few minutes to kill, (3+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jnhobbs, Deep Harm, MixedContent
                            Hidden by:
                            fcvaguy

                            so I thought I would do MB a favor by taking the time to illustrate how completely incoherent and convoluted your inane nonsensical comments have been. You must not get out much, cause people must surely remark on your lack of cohesive thought. 

                            But look, I get that you want to defend Obama against anyone who whispers any even hint of a disapproving opinion of your beloved, and power to you, but please, try to have someone sane review your comments before posting them on a public blog,it will save us all a lot of pointless banter, having to explain basic components of rational thinking. Please.

                            ~we study the old to understand the new~from one thing know ten thousand~to see things truly one must see what is in the light and what lies hidden in shadow~

                            by ArthurPoet on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 10:48:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and look at you (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rubyr, ursoklevar

                            resorting to insult and personal attack implying the poster has some sort of mental defect.

                            You have no special dispensation nor do you have any entitlement to personally attack others. Stop. Have a donut. If you don't like it, take it up with Meteor Blades.

                            must not get out much, cause people must surely remark on your lack of cohesive thought.

                            try to have someone sane review your comments before posting them on a public blog,it will save us all a lot of pointless banter, having to explain basic components of rational thinking.

                          •  Meteor Blades: Reporting fcvaguy for stalking. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            liberaldemdave, Predictor, priceman

                            SUMMARY:

                            I take the time to illustrate, in painful detail, how a series of comments lacks "cohesive thought" and then, after doing so, the commenter responds with a snarky remark, and a vague reference to some other comment on another diary, so I re-state that the commenter's comments lack cohesive thought, also in a snarky tone, and I am HR'd for this? Why? I assert that this is because fcvaguy is stalking me with premeditated "intent to harass, harm, humiliate, frighten or intimidate."

                            Thread stalking is defined as having three requirements:

                            1. On multiple occasions, one or more commenters follow a community member into diary threads; and,
                            1. The commenter(s) posts comments that include false information, personal attacks, lies, or implied/express disclosure of private information; and
                            1. The commenter(s) engages in this conduct with the intent to harass, harm, humiliate, frighten or intimidate another poster. This intent may be inferred from the number of times that the commenter follows a community member into threads and/or the nature of the comments posted.

                            Stalking does not include the mere expression of disagreement, seeking out diaries or comments of favorite diarists or simply frequent interaction on the boards.

                            Before calling someone a stalker or tossing HRs at a person thought to be a stalker, community members should post a comment explaining what conduct and/or statements constitute the stalking with a link to relevant evidence so that adminstrators and the community have a record to review.

                            As illustrated below, consistent with site policy outlined herein above: I have "posted [several] comments explaining what conduct and/or statements constitute the stalking with a link to relevant evidence."


                            PROOF:

                            The following outlines my history with fcvaguy, wherein he explicitly threatens to stalk me and dole out abusive HR's, and he threatens to do this as a retaliation for my calling him on doling out an abusive HR to another commenter(JesseCW).

                            Please note: I have not followed fcvaguy's around to see who else (other than JesseCW and myself) he has abused/bullied in this manner, but if he has inflicted this sort of abuse/bullying upon JesseCW and myself, I must assume that he might have bullied other people in this manner, as well, which is the primary reason I am bringing this to your attention today.

                            Proof I. MOTIVE: My Initial Comment to fcvaguy wherein I call him on his abusive HR given to JesseCW.

                            1. Please note that this comment was on "Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 02:45:46 PM"
                            1. Please note that fcvaguy never responded to my comment on that thread, and he also never provided ANY explanation WHAT-SO-EVER to JesseCW for his HR, which, I assert, makes it a clear case of bullying and abuse.

                            fcvaguy, (3+ / 0-)

                            Do not post an HR without explaining what you believe to be the cause, to do so, especially in a heated debate, is a clear violation, and it is unmistakable HR abuse.

                            I see no cause what-so-ever, for such an HR, and I see no comment from you justifying your HR, therefore, I am uprating.

                            If you disagree with the comment, then post a comment response explaining your position.

                            Consider yourself formally warned.

                            {snip}

                            by ArthurPoet on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 02:45:46 PM PST

                            Proof II. THREAT #1: fcvaguy's comment wherein he threatens to stalk

                            1. Please note that this comment was on "Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 03:21:46 PM PST" ie: 36 minutes after my comment to him.
                            1. Please note that in my comments on this thread above wherein fcvaguy has given me a retalitory abusive HR, I have used no curse words ... in other words, I was respectful in my tone, if one judges tone by my use of "curses" even when I was being critical ... and critical thinking is the cornerstone of rigorous debate, the purpose of this political form.

                            The "fucking" irony (3+ / 0-)

                            The next time you complain about someone else's "vileness" and resort to using the word "fuck" as many times as you did to posture whatever outrage you might want to, I promise you a donut. And, you can complain to MB all you want. You are way out of line.

                            by fcvaguy on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 03:21:46 PM PST

                            My response:

                            fcvaguy, (6+ / 0-)

                            Curse words are acceptable at dailykos.

                            If you are threatening to launch a stalking vendetta against me, (under a false premise of using words that are entirely acceptable,) as a retaliation for this warning for your HR Abuse, consider your threat to stalk me duly documented, and if you do follow through on it, I will report you, for yet another, even worse, bannable offense.

                            by ArthurPoet on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 03:33:28 PM PST

                            From DailyKos FAQ:

                            Profanity in titles is disallowed. The use of asterisks is acceptable. Profanity in the title of a diary will be changed by an admin to contain asterisks (e.g., "Fuck" => "F**k"). Profanity in the text of diaries, and in comments, is OK; just keep the curse words out of the diary titles.

                            Proof III. THREAT #2: For this second threat, his reason is NOT because of my use of curse words, but merely because my "comment made [him] just a tad angrier then [he is]"

                            1. Please note that his second threat to give me an abusive HR was in response my attempt to keep the discussion "on point" to the substantive points raised on the thread, rather than to let "Sophie Amrain" derail/divert the discussion away from the issues with a one-line insulting remark, with no commentary added.

                            Please enjoy your alternate reality. (0+ / 0-)


                            He who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.

                            by Sophie Amrain on Mon Nov 22, 2010 at 12:33:31 AM PST

                            You can't whimsically dismiss (7+ / 0-)

                            his comment as "alternate reality" if he has made substantive points. You need to actually address those points, or you have said nothing but an insult in a blatant attempt to disrupt the discussion by diverting attention and casting doubt. It really is a rather disrespectful insidious technique and adds nothing to the evolving dialectic and mutual understanding, in fact, it attempts to destroy any discussion by ending it. Discourse devolves when you resort to such immature techniques and you most certainly do not prove yourself right to the readers, because only those who already agree with you will like what you wrote, everyone else, will consider you dishonest and underhanded and merely loose respect ... for you.

                            by ArthurPoet on Mon Nov 22, 2010 at 03:00:47 AM PST

                            And you say all this (1+ / 0-)

                            in a thread which started with a blatant insult that said Obama loyalists should avoid diaries that are policy discussions and leave those discussions to those who "care about America", which you apparently "whimsically dismissed" and are now criticizing someone else for "blatant attempt to dsrupt the discussion by diverting attention and casting doubt". If your comment made me just a tad angrier than I am, I'd donut you for the gross double standard.

                            by fcvaguy on Mon Nov 22, 2010 at 07:00:44 AM PST

                            A threat of HR Abuse? (4+ / 0-)

                            As retaliation for difference of opinion and challenging someone to provide a substantive argument?

                            {snip}

                            You have now, on two separate occasions, explicitly threatened to give me an abusive HR.

                            {snip}

                            by ArthurPoet on Mon Nov 22, 2010 at 10:19:06 AM PST

                            The fact (0+ / 0-)
                            that you make no defense of your double standard speaks volumes.

                            by fcvaguy on Mon Nov 22, 2010 at 12:19:12 PM PST

                            You really need to learn to actually read (2+ / 0-)

                            ... what I write.

                            Remove the "obama loyalists" phrase from your comment and replace it with:
                            "those who care more about President Obama's short-term political fortunes then they do about the good of the nation". There is no "double-standard" in what I wrote or have done. However, would you like me to provide a link to when I called out the "die-hard obama supporters" for their "double-standard"?

                            Please.

                            Your attempts to harass me with threats of HR abuse, as you threatened to do, several days ago, in retaliation for my warning you about your own HR abuse is getting old, and if you continue, this will get you banned. Yes, it is difficult to prove certain things, but not when you make explicit threats. Consider yourself formally warned, a second time.

                            I really do not think this is necessary, but let me make this painfully clear, because if you are comporting yourself with others, the way that it rather blatantly appears you are with me, then you will have earned a banning, if you continue to: abuse and harass and stalk.

                            You have now, on two separate occasions, explicitly threatened to give me an abusive HR.

                            Here are the site rules on such matters:

                            Thread stalking is defined as having three requirements:

                            1. On multiple occasions, one or more commenters follow a community member into diary threads; and,1.
                            1. The commenter(s) posts comments that include false information, personal attacks, lies, or implied/express disclosure of private information; and1.
                            1. The commenter(s) engages in this conduct with the intent to harass, harm, humiliate, frighten or intimidate another poster. This intent may be inferred from the number of times that the commenter follows a community member into threads and/or the nature of the comments posted.

                            Stalking does not include the mere expression of disagreement, seeking out diaries or comments of favorite diarists or simply frequent interaction on the boards.
                            Before calling someone a stalker or tossing HRs at a person thought to be a stalker, community members should post a comment explaining what conduct and/or statements constitute the stalking with a link to relevant evidence so that adminstrators and the community have a record to review.

                            To Troll Rate something has exactly one meaning. When you Troll Rate something, as a trusted user, you are stating that the comment should be made invisible to all site users. You're saying that the comment is so bad -- so disruptive or damaging to the community -- that it isn't worth even a debate, but should be deleted from the discussion as being simply inflammatory, simply off-topic, or simply a lie. Remember that, because that is the only use of the troll rating. It is an editorial vote to delete a comment from the conversation. Conversely, there is one particular reason troll ratings should never be used: to express disagreement with a poster's opinion. 
                            ... 

                            1. Do not troll rate people for expressing a contrary opinion, so long as it is expressed in a civilized fashion. The exceptions are for conservative talking points or debunked or false information; this isn't a site for conservatives, they have entire swaths of the internet in which they can regale each other with their reality-impaired fantasies.1.
                            1. Do not troll rate someone you are actively having a fight with. If you are in a heated argument with someone, you should not be judging whether or not what they say is trollworthy. Leave it to others to decide what behavior is or isn't over the line.
                            1. Do not give positive ratings to people having fights in the comment threads. It is insulting to a diarist to hijack a portion of their comment threads in order to have a fistfight between two or three users. It is insulting to the rest of the community to have to scroll past a fight dozens of comments long in order to get back to the topic at hand. If the fight is off topic or otherwise egregious, it should be trollrated in order to remove it from the thread, but there are almost no circumstances in which users should be rewarded for having a fight. Behavior like that isn't worth positive mojo -- don't do it.

                            {snip}

                            by ArthurPoet on Mon Nov 22, 2010 at 04:42:32 PM PST


                            FOOTNOTE:

                            I could provide other links to other comments of mine, since fcvaguy's initial threats, wherein fcvaguy has applied HR's, but I have refrained, and I have refrained from notifying you, MB, about them until now, since I will respect that certain discretion about his and other people's choices are arguable, but this instance herein above, I believe, is undeniable and constitutes an egregious attempt to bully, as part of his ongoing stalking effort.

                            And lastly, let me say again, MB, that my primary concern in bringing this to your attention is that if fcvaguy is conducting himself in this manner, with myself and JesseCW, then it is quite possible that he is doing the same to others.

                            ~we study the old to understand the new~from one thing know ten thousand~to see things truly one must see what is in the light and what lies hidden in shadow~

                            by ArthurPoet on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 03:38:29 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Amnesia much? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          ArthurPoet

                          You may have been taking issue, initially, with MB's suggestions, but then you said that he should either run for office, or stand accused as a keyboard wanker.  

                          A response to you on a subject that you opened hardly constitutes tunnel vision.

                        •  You know what? (0+ / 0-)

                          You're were making a strong point in this thread in taking Meteor Blades on. Unfortunately, you lost me with the namecalling and personal attacks on him.

                          I thought you made an excellent suggestion - stop the whining and poking in the eye - and mount a challenge to Obama. Those that have been endlessly attacking him since day one - shut the hell up and get on with it - primary him and let the chips fall where they may.

                      •  3 hots and a cot vs. (0+ / 0-)

                        a shitload of kill or be killed? I'd say you made the right choice for you. Don't complain or beg sympathy for it. That was your choice. No one else's.

          •  He also asked... (0+ / 0-)

            not "told" as you infer here, everyone to employ patience and thoughtfulness for your fellow man even though your fellow man may not agree with you.

            It seems to me you are an extremist, MB. Your focus is soley on that one request of the President to the exclusion of all his other requests of you and all Americans.

  •  It's more than the extremists. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rubyr, stevej, rlharry

    It's the politicians themselves.

    "You lie."

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    McCain recoiled in horror at what he had done on the campaign trail, after invoking violent crazy tribalism, here and compounds it by insulting Arabs and Muslims.

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    Alito frowning and shaking his head, another step.

    http://www.youtube.com/...

    On local media in Boston today, WBZ radio called Health Care Reform ObamaCare. This was on a news segment. In Boston. Not a talk radio show. The NEWS.

    This nation has jumped into the sewer. It's not just Limbaugh and Beck. It's not just Palin. It's all of it, a filthy sewer that corporate media and the Republican Party have jumped into with both feet.

  •  But the people support (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry

    the haters like Beck and Limbaugh and the rest.  It does no good to call out Sarah Palin when Rupert Murdoch's empire is spewing out toxic rhetoric 24/7.

    Why are those people still on the air?  Where is a concerted move to get their sponsors to pull their advertising from every one of those shows?  Where is the outrage from rational people who don't want that kind of factless hatred accessible to children and the emotionally unstable?

    Where is the outrage?  Why does the left quail and say it would be 'censorship' to take those vermin off the air?  It would not be; it would be demanding responsibility, accountability and adulthood from those who have access to the airwaves.

    "It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity, and make it work for you." (Frank Zappa)

    by cinnamondog on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:28:24 PM PST

  •  Another day in "Blood-State America" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry, sancerre2001

    The so-called "Blood Staters" (renamed to better reflect the actual truth of their viewpoints) have long used catchphrases such as "Words mean things."

    Indeed they do, along with actions.

    Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann can Lady Macbeth all they want to, but these stains are not going to come off...

    "Listen to the people and the answers are there before you." - Lula

    by radabush on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:29:04 PM PST

  •  Okay, I hate to sound (3+ / 0-)

    paranoid, but is it just me or are we seeing a lot of people with high user id's who have never participated here suddenly commenting and writing diaries suggesting that the shooter is just insane?  The material on the web strongly suggests that the shooter was schizophrenic (at least, it does to this psychotherapist), but that doesn't entail that there isn't a strong political dimension here.  At any rate, I'm seeing a lot of names in these threads that I've never seen before.  Hmmmmm.

  •  Accomplice is in his 50's (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque, ohmyheck

    Sherriff's estimation. Killers father perhaps?

    "We believe that the people are the source of all governmental power; that the authority of the people is to be extended, not restricted."-Barbara Jordan

    by sancerre2001 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:30:46 PM PST

  •  what Savage said seems okay (0+ / 0-)
    I take it you are citing the words from Savage as an example of what you find objectionable. However, I do not automatically translate vigilance or resistance into violence. Here in the UK, the left often talks about "a struggle". Violence is not implied by that either. Our language would be the poorer if metaphor, even extreme metaphor, was banned. Can you understand my point of view?

    You are astonished to find that Vagar, the God of thieves, liars and cut-throats, has most followers within the city

    by GideonAB on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:31:06 PM PST

  •  Violence Breeds Violence (5+ / 0-)

    When I woke up the night after the June 1968 California primary, I turned on the Today Show and saw an image that is seared in my memory: a woman holding a sign that said "Pray for Bobby."

    It was only then that I understood that Bobby Kennedy's victory in the California primary the night before had ended in tragedy...in a violent act that he had..perhaps..forseen, but certainly understood.

    Just two months before, right after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., he had this to say say:

    This is a time of shame and sorrow It is not a day for politics I have saved this one opportunity to speak briefly to you about this mindless menace of violence in America which again stains our land and every one of our lives.

    It is not the concern of any one race The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old, famous and unknown They are, most important of all, human beings whom other human beings loved and needed No one - no matter where he lives or what he does - can be certain who will suffer from some senseless act of bloodshed And yet it goes on and on.

    Why? What has violence ever accomplished? What has it ever created? No martyr's cause has ever been stilled by his assassin's bullet.

    No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders A sniper is only a coward, not a hero; and an uncontrolled, uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of the people.

    Whenever any American's life is taken by another American unnecessarily - whether it is done in the name of the law or in the defiance of law, by one man or a gang, in cold blood or in passion, in an attack of violence or in response to violence - whenever we tear at the fabric of life which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children, the whole nation is degraded.

    "Among free men," said Abraham Lincoln, "there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and those who take such appeal are sure to lose their cause and pay the costs."

    Yet we seemingly tolerate a rising level of violence that ignores our common humanity and our claims to civilization alike. We calmly accept newspaper reports of civilian slaughter in far off lands. We glorify killing on movie and television screens and call it entertainment. We make it easy for men of all shades of sanity to acquire weapons and ammunition they desire.

    Too often we honor swagger and bluster and the wielders of force; too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of others. Some Americans who preach nonviolence abroad fail to practice it here at home. Some who accuse others of inciting riots have by their own conduct invited them.

    Some looks for scapegoats, others look for conspiracies, but this much is clear; violence breeds violence, repression brings retaliation, and only a cleaning of our whole society can remove this sickness from our soul.

    For there is another kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions; indifference and inaction and slow decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. This is a slow destruction of a child by hunger, and schools without books and homes without heat in the winter.

    This is the breaking of a man's spirit by denying him the chance to stand as a father and as a man among other men. And this too afflicts us all. I have not come here to propose a set of specific remedies nor is there a single set. For a broad and adequate outline we know what must be done. When you teach a man to hate and fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies - to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and mastered.

    We learn, at the last, to look at our brothers as aliens, men with whom we share a city, but not a community, men bound to us in common dwelling, but not in common effort. We learn to share only a common fear - only a common desire to retreat from each other - only a common impulse to meet disagreement with force. For all this there are no final answers.

    Yet we know what we must do. It is to achieve true justice among our fellow citizens. The question is now what programs we should seek to enact. The question is whether we can find in our own midst and in our own hearts that leadership of human purpose that will recognize the terrible truths of our existence.

    We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions among men and learn to find our own advancement in the search for the advancement of all. We must admit in ourselves that our own children's future cannot be built on the misfortunes of others. We must recognize that this short life can neither be ennobled or enriched by hatred or revenge.

    Our lives on this planet are too short and the work to be done too great to let this spirit flourish any longer in our land. Of course we cannot vanish it with a program, nor with a resolution.

    But we can perhaps remember - even if only for a time - that those who live with us are our brothers, that they share with us the same short movement of life, that they seek - as we do - nothing but the chance to live out their lives in purpose and happiness, winning what satisfaction and fulfillment they can.

    Surely this bond of common faith, this bond of common goal, can begin to teach us something. Surely we can learn, at least, to look at those around us as fellow men and surely we can begin to work a little harder to bind up the wounds among us and to become in our hearts brothers and countrymen once again

    Resist much, obey little. ~~Edward Abbey, via Walt Whitman

    by willyr on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:31:15 PM PST

  •  Based on the press conference (5+ / 0-)

    ....it's starting to sound like this mentally disturbed young man was set up as a patsy by others, including a 50-year-old white man (teabagger profile).

    The fact that the sheriff is frankly blaming incendiary rhetoric and that Arizona has become a mecca for such types,  might signal that he knows what these guys were feeding the shooter, and it's the what we've come to know and expect from the state that nearly elected a teabagger seantor.

  •  the sheriff is calling out violent rhetoric right (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry, Danali

    now.

    i wonder if the secret service will be making a trip to alaska?

  •  A repeat comment possibly, but worth it (4+ / 0-)

    Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) said in a statement late Saturday that “all legislation currently scheduled to be considered by the House of Representatives next week is being postponed so that we can take whatever actions may be necessary in light of today’s tragedy.”

    “Further information relating to a revised House schedule will be released tomorrow,” Cantor added.

    The Hill

    •  Well, let's start with (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens

      Sarah Palin putting the crosshairs on Gifford.  Why did the Cantor and the rest of them wait until after she got shot?

      They tortured people to get false confessions to justify invading Iraq.

      by yet another liberal on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:35:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Repugs are wanting to "stop the government" (0+ / 0-)

      at any cost. In this case, addressing the security issue is a convenient cover for them to "get their story straight" and have their new and improved talking points for HateRadio 2.0 .... their after the shooting "not my fault" response.
      Bastards!..... Just sick , short sighted BASTARDS!

      "A lie repeated may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -elonifer skyhawk

      by Fireshadow on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:01:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Mayour just now at the press conference (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry

    referencing the 'vitriol' that passes for discourse: "That may be free but it's not without its consequences."

    "Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" Mary Oliver

    by byteb on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:34:29 PM PST

  •  President Obama, show some leadership, please. (6+ / 0-)

    Constant right wing hate rhetoric from Limbaugh, Palin, Beck, etc. advocating violence (Palin’s graphic gun crosshairs over Representatives, including Representative Giffords, and Palin’s “lock and load” metaphor) to remedy what’s wrong with government could easily push deranged individuals over the line.

    Hate speech reaches exactly those individuals who act on their violent impulses. There is no way to unequivocally confirm a causal relationship, but by ignoring or minimizing the barage of right wing hate rhetoric in this country and resulting consequences like this tragedy (and others, see: Dr. Tiller, and the shooting of “liberals” at the U.U. church in Tennessee) we do a horrendous disservice to the victims. This issue must be addressed,--or demented extremists will kill again.

    This shooting occurred at a political event. A politician was the target. People died, including a child. If this is not a crime of political terrorism, please tell me what is.

    President Obama, it is incumbent upon you to be a leader and denounce the hate speech that spews over this country like a virus on radio, tv., the internet, and in print by pundits and politicians alike-- and the tragic consequences that result.

    "The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome, to endure, to transform, to love and to be greater than our suffering."

    by rlharry on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:34:38 PM PST

  •  Barack could help....but he won't (4+ / 0-)

    I can't tell you why either.  But, based on my observations of the man, I only believe that it would be too "controversial" for him.  

    -4.63, -5.59 The Right-wing Noise Machine is SOOO much better at controlling the debate than we are.

    by Divertedone on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:35:37 PM PST

  •  We MUST be bipartisan! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran, wsexson, kerplunk, nicethugbert

    and cast a blind eye to the terrorism in our midst. (maybe it'll go away if we don't name it)

    /cowardice

    Obama will kill the Democratic Party.

    by The Dead Man on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:38:16 PM PST

  •  HomeLand security was right (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rlharry, Danali

    Now is the time to crack down on this use of gun metaphors to "take out your political opponent.

  •  The right wing rhetoric against Democratic (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, rlharry, Danali

    politicians and public servants is dangerous. It sounds like what they were saying before Oaklahoma City. President Clinton found the right words for peope with ears to hear, President Obama will too.

  •  There have been 2 front page stories (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    begone, amk for obama, nicethugbert

    about Michael Savage in the history of DailyKos. (based on tag serch)

    Ever.

    by kos on Tue Mar 06, 2007

    by Hunter on Sat Feb 02, 2008

    Shame on us.

    Can we focus on the real enemy?

  •  Pfft. Be realistic. (6+ / 0-)

    No way the President will call out Palin by name. Yeah, he might talk about violence and the nature of violence. That'd be nice. But to call out even the Tea Party? Dream on. No modern President would.

    At least it's almost safe to say that Palin is done as far as running for President. Too bad too. That would have been a show.

    "Th abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power." - William Shakespeare

    by Rockpopple on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 05:59:47 PM PST

  •  Sheriff Dubnick said what needs to be said (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SpecialKinFlag, allenjo

    When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the Capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.

    The president could quote him.

    "I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." Richard Feynman

    by leema on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:02:09 PM PST

  •  Thanks MB (0+ / 0-)

    This is a time for resolve, against those "crocodile tears".

    I fully expect a heated battle looming,
    one that will pit 1st and 2nd Amendments against each other.

    I began to rough out some core framing ideas,
    based on "the Boundaries" of Free Speech -- using a well established logical metaphor:

    Shouting "Fire" in a Crowded America


    Where's the Note?    -- SEIU

    by jamess on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 06:12:56 PM PST

  •  MB (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SpecialKinFlag

    Thank you,
    Onebite

  •  "A premeditated assault on the Constitution" (0+ / 0-)

    There, how hard is that??? Where, oh where, is our Frank Luntz?

  •  This President is measured and careful (4+ / 0-)

    with his words. Always.

    So, thanks but no thanks for your officious advice, MB.

    I suggest this blog follow your advice instead and start concentrating on the real enemies.

    One bitter fact is two bit hacks populate the third rate fourth estate who are truly the fifth columnists.

    by amk for obama on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:30:02 PM PST

  •  Disappointed in this diary, I must say. (5+ / 0-)

    #1 - The President should not be placing blame before we find out all the actual details of this case.

    #2 - He should not, under any circumstances, be personally calling out politicians that he is de facto in competition with.

    He is the President of the United States of America and not some firebrand left-wing pundit, and I sure the hell would not want him to start acting and talking like a pundit.

    That being said, if this does turn out to be a hate crime inspired by violent RW rhetoric, then I do indeed think it would be helpful for the President to call for more civility and denounce violent rhetoric in general, and especially on the airwaves.

    "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

    by Lawrence on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 07:38:20 PM PST

  •  Palin, O'Reilly, Beck, et al are the Side Show (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ursoklevar

    The real villains in this are the Republican political leadership in Washington. They spent the last 24 months vilifying Obama and his efforts. They've done everything they can to demonize him personally, encouraged over-the-top rhetoric from Fox, Limbaugh etc., painted every initiative he and the Democrats took as un-American, even attacking what they previously supported. The attacks on the health care efforts calling it a government takeover, claiming the presence of "death panels", saying it calls for "pulling the plug on grandma," were nothing less than an effort to delegitimize Obama and the Democrats. They much preferred that to engaging in actual debate of the issues. And then the drumbeat that Obama was not born here, that he was a Kenyan socialist, a nazi, a communist, someone bent on destroying the country, an "other" of any stripe elicited nothing but silence from Republican leaders. They're even demonizing the necessity of raising the debt ceiling, as if the US has no responsibility to its creditors (the majority of whom are us), not the Chinese, Japanese or Arabs.

    They loved the rhetoric of the unhinged—with some politicians, like Grassley, Palin, Bachmann (with her McCarthyite plea for investigations of un-American activities) and the irrepressible Steve King even joining in. Their effort to paint the nation's first African American and his political ambitions, no matter how mild and middle of the road, as vile and un-American cultivated intolerance among the mentally unhinged, and provided a justification for such to even seek to realize their fantasies. Is it any surprise that some would engage in action like that today? It is what the Republicans were all but begging for. The only hitch is that the gunman  lacked the wherewithal to target Obama, so he chose Gifford, a much easier target to reach.    

  •  A moment of silence is in order, a long long .... (0+ / 0-)

    moment, a month, of silence so that The Public can tune into the hate speech and see where it really comes from.  So they can hear what America sounds like without progressives.  It will sound like hell.  I dare Fox and Accomplices to say nothing but good things for a month.

  •  This Will Give The Media A Couple Of Days (0+ / 0-)

    rest from their hard job of bashing government employees.  

    They know they have to return to that story quickly to please their masters.

    This mourning over a government employee who was shot in the head for doing her job just doesn't fit the narrative and must be hushed up asap.

  •  Why is it that for some (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    virginislandsguy, AnonObamaAid

    Anything the president says, ever seems good enough. I'm fine with what the President had to say today and I'm sure most of America is also.

    •  Of course, I didn't criticize what the... (2+ / 0-)

      ...President said today. I suggested what he might consider saying in the future when he "fully addresses" this issue.

      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:14:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right (0+ / 0-)

        You didn't do it directly. But, giving the timing of your diary and the president's remarks, reasonable people can assume what you were up to.

        This kind of diary helps fuel this kind of crap:

        Is Obama gonna offer Palin a deal (0+ / 21-)
        Hidden by:raboof, shanikka, Beelzebud, kalmoth, citizenx, indiemcemopants, wiscmass, begone, drmah, GlowNZ, Hawkjt, CanyonWren, sneakers563, UTvoter, Rustbelt Dem, Mariken, annieli, bubbuh, CuriousBoston, farleftloon
        Hidden by:fcvaguy
        to not assassinate the other folks on Palin's teabagger hit list?

        by plok on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 02:35:38 PM EST

        [ Reply to This | RecommendHide ]

        Too bad our pathetic president (0+ / 16-)
        Hidden by:Twodaiquiris, Time Waits for no Woman, Brit, Scarce, citizenx, Fury, shrike, amk for obama, bgblcklab1, Jose Bidenio, itzik shpitzik, satrap, Cinnamon Rollover, Huginn and Muninn, 2dimeshift, TomorrowsProgressives
        is incapable of telling it like it is. The Palin targets were and are direct threats to me personally as far as I'm concerned and the president does not give a shit.

        by plok on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 10:20:53 PM EST

        [ Reply to This | RecommendHide ]

  •  What the fuck (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missliberties, Geekesque

    Why am I not surprised to see the usual gang ripping Obama for not saying (yet) what you think he should? Grow the fuck up.

    •  Because that crowd is psychologically (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      missliberties

      addicted to heaping scorn, ridicule, contempt and even hatred towards the President.

      No matter what the circumstances, they will perversely use it for their own need to bash.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:27:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Quite a bit of hubris (0+ / 0-)

        The author could have claimed the statement as his own, instead of trying to put words in the Presidents mouth.

        It sets up an expectation for failure, and yet more frustration.

        The suggestion that this is what the President should say is a subtle way of undermining the President's authority, imho.

        ~a little change goes a long way~

        by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 06:44:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  No kidding (0+ / 0-)

      It's ridiculous passive agressive bs that sets up false expectations and yet more obama is not liberal enough screeds.

      I am highly disappointed that folks don't see this for what it is.

      ~a little change goes a long way~

      by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 06:58:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well said (0+ / 0-)

    Here's to hoping Obama finds it within himself to stand up to the bullies instead of giving them his lunch money.

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 08:59:49 PM PST

  •  1000 UNCHALLENGED radio stations- you said it (0+ / 0-)

    But there is no ubiquitous liberal - much less, left-wing - network of talk-radio stations spouting Two Minutes' Hate 24/7

    if there are any protests and vigils they need to be at those radio stations.

    Progressives will lose all major messaging battles until they picket the limbaugh/hannity megastations and boycott those stations' local sponsors.

    by certainot on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:01:10 PM PST

  •  Only because that shit doesn't get ratings. (0+ / 0-)

    But there is no ubiquitous liberal - much less, left-wing - network of talk-radio stations spouting Two Minutes' Hate 24/7

    No one gets whipped into a killing frenzy by Randi Rhodes.

    If you lose your disc or fail to follow commands, you will be subject to immediate de-resolution. That will be all.

    by SpamNunn on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:03:22 PM PST

  •  MB, may you should have added a poll (0+ / 0-)

    How many of you think Obama would choose those words or at least address the issue in the manner these words do?
    How many think he won't.

    Sadly I think, he will not. I could explain why I think so, but I guess that is not a wise thing to do. So, I keep it for myself.

    Empowering Young Inmates to Write New Chapters in Their Lives. Free Minds.

    by mimi on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:06:06 PM PST

    •  Which is why MB (0+ / 0-)

      should have just claimed the words as his own, instead of setting up you and others to be disappointed that the President is not in fact MB.

      I frankly think it shows a lot of hubris to write a speech for the President, so you all can be deeply disappointed if he doesn't say exactly the right thing.

      ~a little change goes a long way~

      by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 06:45:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, I don't need MB's diary to be disappointed (0+ / 0-)

        about President Obama. President Obama does this at times all by himself to me. I also don't think it's hubris from MB, I think it was a timely warning about the upcoming potential lack of honesty in the words that might be used in the media or the President, when he or the media address the issue.

        Empowering Young Inmates to Write New Chapters in Their Lives. Free Minds.

        by mimi on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:21:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes of course (0+ / 0-)

          Lack of honesty
          Timely *warning
          potential disappointment

          You agree with MB and are already  pre-disappointed because  the President is  (potential lack of honesty) a liar.

          MB is just playing soothsayer highlighting the pot holes of your future disappointment.

          ~a little change goes a long way~

          by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:49:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  This sort of speech is a trap. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missliberties

    It seems like it would be right down the President's alley in terms of themes--reconciliation, civility.  However, this type of event tends to be polarizing--some people will be upset if he offers anything other than anodyne banality, while others (especially at Daily Kos) will be OUTRAGED if he falls short of announcing that he's sending Sarah Palin to Guantanamo.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 09:51:48 PM PST

  •  obama's head needs to roll- limbaugh 9/10/08 (0+ / 0-)

    he wove it into an absurd pretext- that obama should fire himself for a campaign aid's goof, but that is the line he wanted to deliver and he did, from 600 of the radio stations- and no one noticed.

    Progressives will lose all major messaging battles until they picket the limbaugh/hannity megastations and boycott those stations' local sponsors.

    by certainot on Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 10:05:39 PM PST

  •  Sarah Palin (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rubyr

    Has blood on her hands. I hope that useless stupid witch is happy.

    •  This is not even on that stupid useless (0+ / 0-)

      witch's (excellent adjectives) radar. People like Sarah Palin never take responsibility for any of their actions (except moose hunting).

      I would venture to say that she is tucked away somewhere and has forgotten that this happened. She is not a responsible, thinking adult with a conscience.

      Action is the only agent for change -- talking without action has never effected change anywhere, in any way, at any time.

      by rubyr on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:11:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is there someway (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rubyr

    that instead of calling our local stations individually and getting laughed at,  ,,that we could somehow do something on a national level to embarrass everyone who advertises on RUSH or Fox?   Thats where the problem is,  we need to show clear channel and fox and their revenue stream that we have had enough of their corporatist promoting, bigotry baiting ways.  Shape them up or shut them down.  I think this could be the right time to make a list and promote it nationally.    Anybody here got the smarts to do something like that?  After all Dems are nearly half the people,  we should get some say on how the airwaves are used in this country.  We could tell clear channel we want equal time, and if we dont get 51% we go to work to shut them down.  This one sided bullshit needs to end now.

    •  I have been involved in protests in front (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ursoklevar

      of Fox News in NYC many times. Fox sends a representative out to give a statement and that's that.
      They are completely aware of what they do and the consequences. They are proud of it. The entire Republican noise machine is very proud of that structure. They worked for decades to put it in place and it is highly effective. They are not really interested in ideals like integrity, honesty, truth. Not important to them.  

      Action is the only agent for change -- talking without action has never effected change anywhere, in any way, at any time.

      by rubyr on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:14:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Incredible (0+ / 0-)

    Saperstein seems to have written this up before even knowing any facts. Notice that it says "[the Arizona shooter]" instead of the name of the idiot? Funny, that.

  •  Zero introspection (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missliberties

    That's all that can be mustered from a FPer/moderator?

    Just askin'.

    "Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry."

    by Glinda on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:51:55 AM PST

    •  I am shocked (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glinda

      and disappointed.

      These are MB's words, not Obamas. He owns them.

      To suggest that this is what must be said, or else the President is a failure, gives me pause.

      It seems like passive aggressive horseshit to me.

      The little speech is fine. But why set out that folks MUST disappointed if he doesn't say what MB wants him to say.

      Yet the troops fall in line waiting for their President to fail them, as per MB's dictact.

      ~a little change goes a long way~

      by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 07:02:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was disappointed years ago (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        missliberties

        and can no longer be shocked.

        Likely the effect of being a big fish in a small pond.

        "Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry."

        by Glinda on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:23:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am trying to be nice (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glinda

          Thinking about some of what has gone on here, it not exactly easy.

          The left has its own brand of crazy. It is hard not to mention how MB suggested that BWD was so popular in this community, therefore it was impossible that just a few could have hounded her off the site with godwin comparisons.

          The 60's is over. Time to update the liberal/progressive movement to the 21st century.

          It is pretty simple in the end. The right disguises taxes as an assault on liberty. That is where all the tea party rhetoric comes from. Taxes.

          ~a little change goes a long way~

          by missliberties on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:33:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You nailed it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            missliberties

            We are stuck with almost 50-year-old rhetoric that didn't stand up to scrutiny 50 years ago. A shot in the arm and 21st century thinking is exactly what's needed.

            "Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry."

            by Glinda on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 08:56:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The problem with your statement here... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        navajo, jnhobbs, ursoklevar

        ...is that I did NOT say that this is what MUST be said. Or that the President is a failure if he doesn't say those things. I made no diktat. That's why I used the words "might" and "could" and, as always, used respectful language in referring to Barack Obama. I didn't say: "Speak these words or else." I made no criticism of the President whatsoever.

        But, of course, you know that.

        Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 12:24:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Condemning violence is not enough--exactly (0+ / 0-)

    but will the President have the courage to make this statement or demur out of fear of offending Republicans?

    If looks could kill it would have been us instead of him.

    by jhannon on Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 10:32:00 AM PST

  •  Look in the mirror for Blame (0+ / 0-)

    Why is it that people are always pointing across the aisle looking to blame someone?  Whether it be the left blaming the right or the right blaming the left, the real truth is that if you want to blame someone then look in the mirror.  I see hate speech coming from both sides and it really needs to stop.  But even when it does things like the Tucson tragedy will continue to happen basically because we are animals and everyone has their own sense of reality.  For this kid, who by the way happend to be one from the left according to people who knew him, he simply was mentally ill.

    I know people want to blame Palin or Beck or Olberman or Pelosi or someone other than the kid.  Maybe we should blame video games or the band AC/DC or maybe it was the fact he ate Frosted Flakes for breakfast or maybe his parents smoked pot while growing up and listened to Bob Dylan or The Who.  Maybe his socks were too tight.

    What needs to happen is for people to grow up and be responsible.  Be part of the solution instead of driving more hate by blaming people on the other side of the fence from you.  Because all that does is rile up more people.

    So let's start by admitting that the kid had problems and unfortunately this is the way he tried to solve them.  Kids in today's world have no problem taking a gun and shooting someone.

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