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Public Policy Polling for Daily Kos. 1/14-16. Registered voters. MoE 3.1% (No trend lines)

Do you think violence against the current American government is justified or not?

           Justified  Not Justified
All             6          82

Tea Party      13          75
Non Tea Party   4          86

That's 13 percent of teabaggers who are this close to becoming domestic terrorists. It's a frightening figure, and one that portends more violence ahead unless the Right puts a brake on its violent rhetoric and paranoid conspiracy theories.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Both sides do it! (29+ / 0-)

    It's just that one side does it 100 times more than the other.

    Umm, that's PRESIDENT Obama and SENATOR Franken, mr. o'reilly.

    by filby on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:02:13 AM PST

  •  I'm surprised it's not (15+ / 0-)
    higher.

    Tax cuts for everybody, but no EXTRA tax cuts for the rich.

    by RJDixon74135 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:02:35 AM PST

  •  Right puts a brake on its violent rhetoric????? (11+ / 0-)

    Not until the donation checks start bouncing

    We Destroyed this Village in order to save it from the Viet Cong er um Taliban

    by JML9999 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:03:03 AM PST

  •  Only brown terrorists count. (5+ / 0-)

    White ones are "freedom fighters."  (not to be confused with "freedom fries.")

    Umm, that's PRESIDENT Obama and SENATOR Franken, mr. o'reilly.

    by filby on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:03:58 AM PST

  •  And reprimands (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RJDixon74135, filby

    rebukes and "refudiates" the nuttier among them.

  •  If Arizona's GOP is any indication (15+ / 0-)

    that poll must have a margin of error or plus or minus 80.

    I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of the people that obsess over owning them.

    by Detroit Mark on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:04:31 AM PST

  •  Beck said 10% of Muslims are terrorists. (13+ / 0-)

    recently. That number was ridiculous on it's face and he was called out for it, including by Fareed Zakaria.

    The interesting thing is that this number is even higher and comes from the tea party members themselves.

  •  Glad to see the addition of "current" (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deminva, bogmanoc, beltane, ozoozol

    I wonder, will anyone now say the question is "vague"?

    I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

    by ontheleftcoast on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:04:36 AM PST

    •  Again, the question wasn't vague (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zett

      it was just sloppily (mis)represented and misinterpreted by many.

      We're currently conducting two bigoted, racist wars and occupations of extreme violence, with a stated goal of regime change (and this the euphemistic edge of rationale), prosecuted not just by massive violence against government(s), but wholesale industrial slaughter of innocent civilians.

      This violence (not rhetorical but real) is carried out on a bi-partisan basis.

      The vast weight and bulk of violence, in our consciousness, and in our lives, is not rhetorical and it is not dictated by the tea party.  This bi-partisan violence is not an aberration but a consensus value.

      Putting the onus for our violent culture on the tea party, and limiting the scope of consideration to events in Tucson is precious beyond conscience.  

      Such a narrow, cheap, rhetorical frame could only produce useless, apolitical sanctimony.  As it has.  What we have here is a straight poll mounted in a perversely skewed frame.

      What a waste of time.

      What an embarrassment on MLK day.

      Please don't feed the security state.

    •  I will. (0+ / 0-)

      Should have asked how many approve of the shooting of Congresswoman Giffords.

      Candidate Obama was right: When both parties serve the same side in the class war, voters may as well cling to guns and religion. Bitter since 2010.

      by happymisanthropy on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:09:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I REALLY hope they don't. (0+ / 0-)

        I do. not. want to know how many rabid dogs there are out there.  I'll just try to stay vigilant, ready to put them down when they come at me with drooling fangs.

        I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

        by tle on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 03:44:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Me, too (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tle, ontheleftcoast

      If they asked me if I ever thought violent opposition to the federal government was appropriate, I'd say hell, yes!  When in the course of human events and all that.

      There was a thread here last week on just such a poll, then tenor of which was, I believe, Can you believe those violent teabaggers!  It reminded me of Boy's State, a Virginia phenomenon, at least, sponsored by the Kiwanis Club, I think, where our brightest high schoolers were taught that the government is always right and one should never question public officials.  

      I don't want to sound like one of those asshats wearing a t-shirt with The tree of liberty must be fertilized with the blood of patriots and/or nitrogen sticks, and there's certainly a dangerous and absurd undercurrent of pseudo-revolutionary animus that's been percolating since about a week after President Obama's inauguration.  

      But ever is a mighty grand space of time.

  •  And 4% of everyone else? (0+ / 0-)
    I'd take this with a healthy does of salt....
    •  That 4% (6+ / 0-)

      Probably thinks the tea party is too far to the left.

    •  4% of libertarians, socialists, communists, Green (0+ / 0-)

      and just plain folks.

      In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

      by blue aardvark on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:12:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Soubs about right. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TexasTom, Justanothernyer, DavidMS

      In my experience, that's the percentage of the population who believes in the claptrap such as the Bilderberg Group, the Trilateral Commission, and other conspiracy theories.

      Fortunately, most of them seem to be the 101st fighting keyboardists who don't realise the internet is far from anonymous and that if their conspiracy theories were true, they would've been disappeared ages ago, proxy or no.

      Iuris praecepta sunt haec: Honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. - Ulpian, Digestae 1, 3

      by Dauphin on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:13:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Drat. Sounds, I mean. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Justanothernyer

        Iuris praecepta sunt haec: Honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. - Ulpian, Digestae 1, 3

        by Dauphin on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:14:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Er. Not to be contrary, but the Bilderberg group (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Odysseus, G2geek, tle, happymisanthropy

        and the Trilateral Commission are real things, and they're highly suspicious.

        Now - that's not to say that they're what the most far-out conspiracy theories re: them are - but the Bilderberg group meetings are annual, they're always reported in the foreign press, even in the U.S. sometimes, they do include the most powerful figures in the world, and they do meet every year, there is an absurd amount of secrecy and security about what is discussed (no one really knows) - and the Trilateral Commission does exist and has existed for a long time.

        Again - that's not giving credence to the most far out interpretations of what they're about - but they do exist.

        May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.

        by dasheight on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:02:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  to that add Bohemian Grove. (0+ / 0-)

          Basically any place where you have large gatherings of plutocrats, bad shit is going to happen.  It doesn't take a conspiracy theory to recognize that.  And it doesn't take a conspiracy to do it: just oligarchs and plutocrats socializing, where they will randomly come up with ideas to inflict upon the rest of us to extract more surplus value from us and keep us stupid about what's going on.  

  •  but what does current mean (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, ozoozol, ontheleftcoast

    and what does american mean?

    . . .

    /snark

    language cleaned up (from the CBS poll) nicely. i wonder if this is the same 28% from that poll. tea party and republican are inseparable.

    •  86% of baggers are self-identified GOP'ers. It's (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      time that people stop perpetuating this MYTH that the "tea party" is somehow separate from the Republican party and the right wing.

      They're REPUBLICANS - ADMITTED Republicans. In many cases, they're just the most far right of the Republican party.

      May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.

      by dasheight on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:05:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Right on Kos. This answers the question (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jamess, SunsetMagnolia

    your recent post claimed that other poll answered (when it didn't).

    Good question, and good use of the polling budget.

    "It is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence"

    by JesseCW on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:05:35 AM PST

  •  13% Justified 75% Not Justified +12% No Opinion? (10+ / 0-)

    That looks like 25% that thinks it's ok.

    "An exact science is one that admits loss" -- Genesis P-Orridge

    by jethrock on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:05:42 AM PST

  •  Sort of makes you wonder what percent of dangerous (5+ / 0-)
    extremists are Tea Partiers?

    " It's shocking what Republicans will do to avoid being the 2012 presidential nominee."

    by jwinIL14 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:06:01 AM PST

  •  17% of 18-29 year olds said the same thing. (9+ / 0-)

    I guess our children is learning.

  •  Can we start calling them terrorists? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    filby, happymisanthropy

    If they were muslims, we would not be calling them violent extremists.

    "Universal health care for every man, woman & child. That is our cause." -John Edwards 1/30/2008

    by jesses on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:07:23 AM PST

  •  IIRC, Tea Party represents roughly (7+ / 0-)

    15% of voters.

    13% of 15% of 120M is 2.34M potential killers.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:10:51 AM PST

    •  Where's Tom Cruise of The Minority Report (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pluto, HylasBrook

      when you need him?

      Umm, that's PRESIDENT Obama and SENATOR Franken, mr. o'reilly.

      by filby on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:15:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well from the data of the polling sample (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LokiMom, JTinDC

      It said 170 said identified as Teabag members.

      13% of 170= about 22 people in that poll from that group alone.

      170 was 17% of the total polling sample.

      Other scary identifiers showed

      17% of men ages 18-29 (160 total sample) about 30 people

      13% making under $30,000 (150 total sample) about 17 people.

      9% from the midwest too.

      There's an interesting profile emerging here from the data from just 1 poll.

      I wonder how that squares with the data from a poll that said more people believe liberals are responsible for it than conservatives...I mean conservatives blame liberals and lord knows teabaggers blame liberals for everything.

      It will not matter how much money was in my bank account, but the world may be a better place because I was important in the life of a child.

      by emal on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:28:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  it is pretty scary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, happymisanthropy

      When you look at other countries that have dealt with guerilla movements or armed factional strife you can see that it doesn’t really take many people to throw a place into turmoil. At the core, you need relatively few people willing to actually take up arms. In turn, those people need a just a small percentage of the population to work as sympathizers and provide them cover to operate. Likewise, a certain percentage of non-sympathizers can be intimidated into not doing anything.

      0.01% of the 2.34M you cite would be 23,400 people. Imagine if there really were that many people engaged in violence? It would be mayhem. It doesn’t take an army to cause a lot of destruction. Look at what a dozen people with small arms did in Mumbai.

      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

      by Joe Bob on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:06:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think this might be the key phrase (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joe Bob

        willing to actually take up arms

        13% may think it's justified, but are they themselves willing to take up arms? As someone mentioned in another comment, many seem to be members of the 101st fighting keyboardists.

        "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."--Will Rogers

        by vgranucci on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:17:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  that's still sort of my point (0+ / 0-)

          The gist of my comment was that if even one one hundredth of one percent of that 13% weren’t all talk, we would still have a pretty big problem.

          Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

          by Joe Bob on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 02:09:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  So take that 13% number as the number (0+ / 0-)

          of sympathizers willing to help as long as it is fairly easy to do so without getting in serious trouble.  It would only take several hundred people actively engaged in violence, combined with a couple million sympathizers to wreak total havoc.

  •  Seems About Right (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    Roughly half of the solid some 26% of the bush cabal total supporters and same even before Obama took the oath!

    It was actually amusing, not funny amusing, to watch the ones on boards all of a sudden start trying to call themselves and write rhetoric as 'libertarian' as well at the time!

    Women say 7,000 a day, Men 2000plus, little sarah at around 28,000 w/no common sense nor idea's!

    by jimstaro on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:11:04 AM PST

  •  I wonder how that Poll would have went (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, filby, jethrock, RfrancisR

    If taken in 2006

    or 2004

    or 1998

    Is there a correlation to the Passing of the Patriot Act?

    -- 1000's of pages pushed thru in a weekend, BY THE GOP.

    an Act which only Russ Feingold opposed.


    Where's the Note?    -- SEIU

    by jamess on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:13:12 AM PST

  •  poll question should have been... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, filby, happymisanthropy

    who do you think should be next.

    That would get the crazies up in a bunch.

    Republicans===the party of the 1% rich people in America. Or in other words..The Party of NO!

    by jalapeno on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:13:51 AM PST

  •  Right and the entire Republican Party 'just won't (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fury, filby, Eric Nelson

    say NO' to the  TeaParty.  They don't shut them up, or even try.  They embrace them because God forbid they lose their support.

  •  Most fringe right-wingers are cowards, (13+ / 0-)

    like Dick Cheney who got five deferments from Vietnam, but had no problem with sending other people's sons to foreign lands to fight and die.

    I'd say a huge portion of that 13% is in favor of someone else exercising their Second Amendment remedies.

    Barack Obama in the Oval Office: There's a black man who knows his place.

    by Greasy Grant on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:14:32 AM PST

  •  what resources are put on TeaParty Extermists? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    G2geek, TofG

    breaking up these hate networks is a priority now.  Say no to American Terrorists.

  •  In case you're curious, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    This means that if there is a rally of 100 random Tea Partiers, there is a 0.0002% chance that none of them would commit violence against the government.  That number is rounded up, by the way.

  •  I suspect the numbers supporting the violence (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    are actually consideribly higher. When you consider the anti-government parnoia that so many of the tea baggers show, large numbers of them probably considered a question from a polling company to be part of a government plot to take their guns away and so they lied about how they actually felt

    When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn't know. -- Mark Twain

    by voroki on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:17:44 AM PST

  •  holy cow; this could be a million people, WTF? (0+ / 0-)


    80% of SUCCESS is JUST showing up

    Christina Green,RIP - Gun Control NOW

    by Churchill on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:21:59 AM PST

  •  is this a poll of registered tea party members? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LokiMom

    what do you mean by violence?

    is it revolution? or terrorism? is that the same thing?

    i think the title of your post is inflammatory. and you simply do not give enough information for me to make an intelligent judgement here.

    wow. MB asks for time out and I think he was right. reflect. think about how we say things ...

    no. this just isn't doing it for me.

    •  TeaPartiers don't register anywhere, they're a (3+ / 0-)

      shadow group,  I doubt that they have membership lists


      80% of SUCCESS is JUST showing up

      Christina Green,RIP - Gun Control NOW

      by Churchill on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:25:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  if so, doesn't this post worry you just a bit? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Churchill, LokiMom

        i want better. i don't want to beat republicans or tea partiers.

        i want to be part of a better slate of citizens. and this kind of crap doesn't get us there.

        it simply reinforces THEM and US.

        when the bankers and the brokers and the corporate marauders are the ones we all ought to focus on and figure out how to stop their rape fest of our assets, resources, and well the planet.

        pointing at tea partiers ain't gonna get it done. never does.

        •  By the same logic (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Churchill, happymisanthropy

          you can't say this:

          "he bankers and the brokers and the corporate marauders are the ones'

          because that's just another form of "us" and "them" and if liberals and progressives are now to rule out any divisions into "us" and "them" that certainly means class divisions, which have always been thoroughly papered over in the US to begin with.

          (The fact that we're supposed to ignore different class self-interests, and what class is likely to benefit the most from having those self-interests ignored, is why I'm no fan of this rejection of "usses" and "thems".)

          Hegemony is always electable.

          by ActivistGuy on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:34:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  In the eyes of the GOP and Tea Party (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Churchill, happymisanthropy

          it is and always has been and always will be "them vs us". That's just the way their brains are wired to think. Some of them are capable of change, but very, very few of them are.

          The best we can hope for is that evolution selects them for extinction in a timely enough manner to allow the rest of us to survive. (not holding my breath)

          The window for mitigating the disastrous results of global climate change is closing fast. We can il-afford too many more years of conservative ignorance and paranoia.

          Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

          by JTinDC on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:56:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  One thing to remember, these are people (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    decembersue, emal, R Rhino from CT4

    answering surveys.  It doesn't necessarily mean they would commit violence against the government.

    It's like surveys that show American people are more progressive than conservative.  The problem, the only effort on their part is picking up a phone and being willing to answer questions.

    Unfortunately, for many of the respondents that are progressives, the effort of registering to vote & voting once or twice a year is just too much work to do.

    It hurts us because Republicans are very reliable about voting.

    HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

    by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:23:43 AM PST

  •  Geez, Kos didn't get the memo (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, JTinDC

    we're not supposed to ASK those questions. We're supposed to pretend they're all nice people who are just "concerned" about "government".  

  •  Depend on the RIGHT?! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy, HylasBrook

    ...portends more violence ahead unless the Right puts a brake on its violent rhetoric and paranoid conspiracy theories.

    We're counting on THEM?!!! I hardly think so. Decent, law-abiding citizens and not the fringies reining in their own, ferchrisakes!

  •  actually 25% (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    12% are not sure.

  •  MOE? (0+ / 0-)

    according to the cross-tabs, the sample of tea-partiers was 170, which makes for a margin of error of 7.5%, not 3.1%.  This should be corrected.

    That having being said, tea partiers are crazy.

    •  The difference between (0+ / 0-)

      a subset of 170 people responding 13% yes and a subset of 710 people responding 4% yes is statistically highly significant though with a z-score of more than 4.5. Which means it's basically impossible that this happened due to chance.

      Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

      by twohundertseventy on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 02:48:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I believe this poll BUT (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HylasBrook

    I think the majority of tea parties that agreed with use of force against the government are probably seniors who wouldn't be able to get out of their medicare subsidized wheelchairs to shoot a gun and keyboard commando's who fantasize about war and violence but wouldn't leave their mommy's basement of shit ever hit the fan.

    •  While I sympathize w/your sentiment of cowardice (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ActivistGuy, happymisanthropy

      on the right, I think the idea that the Tea Party is comprised of oldsters is ageist non-sense.

      The right who've always wanted to send our young off to be slaughtered in foreign adventures is well known. They've been Chicken hawks forever.

      •  It's the conceit (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        denise b

        of the young that all their foes are old.  It's one of the great ironies that this is being thrown at the Boomers now, as the left boomers did indeed ignore the presence of the right Boomers among them when they were younger.  Just as today's younger Millenials, and not-so-young-anymore but still presuming to speak for the young GenXers do likewise.  But if you watch a right-wing megachurch  disgorge its thousands after services some Sunday, you'll see that it's almost entirely under 45s.

        Hegemony is always electable.

        by ActivistGuy on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:39:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wrong, Kos. That 13% simply misunderstood (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    that thought they were being asked about violins, not violence.
    You know, dat der fiddling music dat we plays on weakens?

    In fact, jest to clean up our american language, we're gonna change da name to RedGrass music, cuz anything blue's gotta be socialist communist.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:27:47 AM PST

  •  Tea Party... 1 out of 8... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dar Nirron, happymisanthropy

    Non Tea Party... 1 out of 25.

    To do everything I can to make sure our economy is growing, creating jobs, and strengthening our middle class. That's my resolution for the coming year.

    by BarackStarObama on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:28:37 AM PST

  •  I've got a question... (0+ / 0-)
    ..how did PPP locate an exclusive batch of teabaggers in order to ask them if they think violence against the current American government is justified or not?

    I don't know how many teabaggers there are in America (around 10 million?), but if 13% of 10 million people in America thinks the violence against the current American government is justified, then this country is constantly on the brink of violent upheaval.

    "Sure, Sarah Palin didn't pull the trigger. But then, neither did Charles Manson." - auntbeast via Pharyngula

    by wyvern on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:29:34 AM PST

    •  They asked registered voters (0+ / 0-)

      if they view themselves as members of the tea party. 17% said yes (so that's 170 people). And they, and all others along with them, were asked this question.

      Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

      by twohundertseventy on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 02:49:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Violent Rhetoric Has Little to Do With It. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, happymisanthropy

    The massive counterfactuality portraying the nation as being conquered by alien forces, and its wealth and arms confiscated by the current government, the government being illegitimate and criminal, the promotion of the general welfare being anticonstitutional, etc. are the problem.

    Many reasonable people would think that the time for violence is near, given what's portrayed about the current government and its supporters. There wouldn't need to be any violent rhetoric to see a violent response.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:30:44 AM PST

    •  Which may be a silver lining (0+ / 0-)

      People too lazy to be informed are prone to becoming Fox zombies, but most of them will still be too lazy to get out of their armchairs.  Unfortunately all of them will be resistant to subsequent inoculation with truth.

      Candidate Obama was right: When both parties serve the same side in the class war, voters may as well cling to guns and religion. Bitter since 2010.

      by happymisanthropy on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:29:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here is the gist and the right way to frame it. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    6 percent of all Americans are criminally insane.
    The proportion of the criminally insane is more than double among teabaggers.

    We should do everything we can to make sure this country lives up to our children's expectations

    by Montreal Progressive on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:31:36 AM PST

  •  13% of Tea Partiers are dangerous extremists (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    and 87% are extremely..... uninformed.  

    (Being charitable to fools would not be a trait anyone would generally ascribe to me, but this seems to be a good time to air it out and wave it around a bit.)

    Have you ever stopped to think and then forgot to start again?

    by figbash on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:34:49 AM PST

  •  The young are even more comfy with violence (0+ / 0-)

    Per the PPP survey, age 18-29 respondents are even worse at 17%. Ages 30-65 are at 3%.

    Understandably, the poor (13%) are up there as well. The well off (over 100K income) like the current government just fine (4%).

    Interestingly enough the Midwest (9%) is more likely to support violence than the South (5%). Also, only the Midwest is a standard deviation off the mean score of 6%.

    Democrats and Republicans are statistically identical (5% and 6% respectively). Independents weigh in at 10%.

    Ideological liberals, moderates and conservatives weigh in at 7%, 6% and 6% respectively. No meaningful difference.

    Why can't we all just get a blog? :)

    by cskendrick on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:35:30 AM PST

  •  What's even more disturbing is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    apparently 12% of those polled were undecided. Those are the ones to keep an eye on.

    "Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, a fanatical criminal" -- Logical Song -- Rick Davies & Roger Hodgson

    by Over50Lib on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:35:54 AM PST

  •  Bill Maher's message to Teabaggers (4+ / 0-)

    needs to get out more....maybe they can learn something about themselves....
    http://www.youtube.com/...

  •  Maher to Teabaggia: Founders would've hated you (3+ / 0-)

    Bill Maher:  

    "...the founding fathers would have hated your guts. (...) They were everything you despise.  (...)  They studied science, read Plato, hung out in Paris and thought the Bible was mostly bullshit."

    I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of the people that obsess over owning them.

    by Detroit Mark on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:38:35 AM PST

  •  Violence by whom? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    Are they asking about Iraqis or Afghans or Yemenis? [or various other places where the USG has been observed to bomb weddings and such]

    42 million Americans on food stamps. Trickle down starts any minute, right?

    by tiggers thotful spot on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:38:56 AM PST

  •  If the right would stop with the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    conspiracy theories then they'd having nothing to justify the violent rhetoric. And take away the conspiracy theories then the right has no useful tools, none, zip, zero. They know full well they can't sell their ideology to the majority of Americans. The majority of Americans see that right wing ideology has no merits, especially when all the lies are stripped away.

    We need to accept the fact that the right has no intention of giving up the lies or the rhetoric. They just won't. Not even if a teahadist attacked us with nukes would Beck or Palin or any of them back off.

    Anyone who thinks anything will disuade them from their currenty practice is just plain kidding themselves. The right loves to hate, simple as that.

    Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

    by JTinDC on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:39:25 AM PST

  •  Another way to look at it (0+ / 0-)

    is that the vast, vast majority of even the Tea Party think violence is never justified.  

    And this poll means that you can't use a broad brush to paint the whole Tea Party as supporting violence.  13% is not the Tea Party.  It's a small minority.  

    •  more than one out of ten? (4+ / 0-)

      It's a significant minority. It's not one-in-a-million/"whacko" territory.

    •  That's not what the poll says at all (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      The majority of even Teapeople don't think violence is currently justified.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't change their mind if a black dude got reelected in a couple years, or if Nazi Death Panels didn't get repealed by the Republican House.

      You can't say 'ever' because that's not what was asked at all.  And 'ever' has the same problem as the execrable MSM poll last week.  Unless you're a complete pacifist (or a sociopath who doesn't care about things like justification), you have to answer 'yes' if the question is whether violence is 'ever' justified.

      "...the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die." RIP Senator. We miss you.

      by libdevil on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:59:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Extremists that fit right in w/ the Gop despite (0+ / 0-)

    the latest story being put forth.
    The word is the GOP is going to have real trouble with the new teabag influx in congress [Boehner & McConnell specifically]; I can't see it.
    They seem to be of a piece.

    Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of Barack Obama? Tea Party 13 85 2

    Do you approve or disapprove of Barack Obama's job performance? Tea Party 12 87 1

    Do you think Barack Obama is too liberal, too conservative, or about right? Tea Party 82 8 8 2

    Do you approve or disapprove of the job Harry Reid is doing? Tea Party 10 80 10

    Do you approve or disapprove of the job Mitch McConnell is doing? Tea Party 39 28 34

    Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of the Democratic Party? Tea Party 12 85 3

    Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of the Republican Party? Tea Party 61 29 10

    Generally speaking if there was an election today would you vote to reelect Barack Obama, or would you vote for his Republican opponent? Tea Party 12 83 5

    Are you very excited, somewhat excited, or not at all excited about voting in the 2012 election for President? Tea Party 70 13 17
    Which of the following best describes your opinion on gay marriage: gay couples should be allowed to legally marry, or gay couples should be allowed to form civil unions but not legally marry, or there should be no legal recognition of a gay couple's relationship. Tea Party 17 30 52 1

    Do you think violence against the current American government is justified or not? Tea Party 13 75 12

    This is very disturbing.  Not only does 13% of baggers favor extremist action, they are not the huge problem for the Republicans that the latest MSM & pundits would suggest

    I don't want your country back..I want my country forward - Bill Maher

    by Eric Nelson on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:43:21 AM PST

    •  I dunno- they may be excited about voting (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Odysseus

      Palin/Huckabee, and they're not gonna get the chance past primary.

      If I were R establishment, I wouldn't want these folks to be engaged enough to vote in the primary, and this sure suggests that they are.

  •  Slow down Kos!!!!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roguetrader2000

    Your poll shows 17% of people 18-29 think it's OK as well. Does this mean we can't trust anyone under 30?

    How about the 14% of people who identified as the Other demographic (White, Black, Hispanic, Other)?  Watch out for Asians, American Indicans & Pacific Islanders, eh?

    And 13% of people who make under $30K per yr?  So the working poor can't be trusted either.

    Stop wetting yourself over the Tea Party, Kos!  Cut the spending and they'll go away.

    I'm not a Tea Party member per se, but I do agree that the runaway, wasteful spending has to stop. And why do we have to keep expanding the gov't workforce everywhere (Fed, State & Local)  We can't afford all of these workers and their benfits & pensions.

    Private enterprise, where I've been for 25 yrs, always works towards doing more with less.  That's why the US worker has the highest productivity in the world (as measured in econominc output.

    •  Not a teabagger "per se". (3+ / 0-)

      Really?  lol

      Is that anything like "I'm not completely insane"?

      I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of the people that obsess over owning them.

      by Detroit Mark on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:54:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, Pensions are the problem. Heavy Snark. (3+ / 0-)

      Our government workforce is smaller and we pay lower taxes than most of the industrial world.  The problem is corporations breaking unions and not paying their fare share of taxes (along with the uber-rich.  Back in the 1950's and 1960's there were many more union workers than today.  You know, when the economy was better and there was less income disparity.  Let's be sure the common people have nothing and let's give it all to the rich and the corporations because then we can an economy like what Bush left us.
      I could really feel safe if we just eliminated benefits for workers.
      It isn't the runaway spending on pensions so much as the run away spending on military and the run away cutting of taxes on those that can afford to pay them.
      Gee Whiz.

      •  You don't read the paper much, do you? (0+ / 0-)

        They are not THE problem, but are problematic nonetheless.

        http://www.cnbc.com/...

        "States Warned of $2 Trillion Pensions Shortfall"

        I received 3 other conmments besides yours and none spoke to the core of my post, which is the polling data that Kos used to portray the "Tea Party" in a bad light.

        You "lefties" are predictable, at least....

        BTW - quit with the "teabaggers" - it immediately identifies you as being far to the left on the political spectrum

        •  CNBC (0+ / 0-)

          I do read the news every day as  a matter of fact.  The problem isn't pensions, it is tax cuts and military spending.  We can continue down this path where we pay most Americans less and less every year and the rich get richer,or we can go back to how this country was when it was great.  My guess, we become a second rate two bit piece of shit, but it won't be because of pensions.  Pensions allow a middle class lifestyle for the common man.  Tax cuts have primarily benefited the super rich.

          So you quote a large corporate cheerleader to prove that pensions are the problem.  I do not just listen to corporate sponsored media.  The world is much bigger than what they would have you believe.  This is something people on the right and left should be able to agree upon.  Instead people just keep repeating the same crap they hear on corporate sponsored tv.

          BTW - nowhere did I use the term "teabaggers" in my response to you.  I also would appreciated you laying off terms to compartmentalize me and address the issues, though I am sure it is easier to dismiss me as a "lefty".  Thank you.

          P.S. - Not everybody who posts here is what you would categorize as a lefty.  You might be surprised to find that intelligent comments can come from all over the political spectrum.

        •  The "core" of your post? (0+ / 0-)

          The core of your post is that the Tea Party isn't so bad because some other groups also have some crazies.  I won't argue with this, most all groups do have some crazies.  What is your point?  We shouldn't worry about zealots because they come in many flavors?

          You do make the statement:

          I'm not a Tea Party member per se, but I do agree that the runaway, wasteful spending has to stop. And why do we have to keep expanding the gov't workforce everywhere (Fed, State & Local)  We can't afford all of these workers and their benfits & pensions.

          This is a significant corporate sponsored error in your argument.  Please read some non-corporate information.  Pensions are not the problem.  In fact, the article you quote, in bold talks about chronic underfunding of pensions.  This also happens in the corporate world.  Much is promised and not payed, because they were allowed to underfund the pensions.  This does not make pensions bad.  Furthermore, without pensions for old people to spend, our consumer driven economy would drop like a lead weight.

          Ask yourself what the economy might look like if we had funded our pensions?  What if we didn't spend all those trillions on "defense".  Though, I must admit it is practically the only industry left in this declining country.

          •  I stand corrected... (0+ / 0-)

            ..other replies used the teabagger term, not you.  My apologies.

            Most of the pensions that are in trouble are state & municipal. They are not directly affected by tax cuts for the "super rich" or defense spending.

            They are in trouble primarly from bad management (underfunding, bad investments, etc...) and over promising.  Kicking the can down the road, as it were.

            No corporate sponsorship here....I have a 401K plan & SSI for my retirement. Since private enterprise has concluded that defined benfit pensions plans are unsustainable, our government should figure it out too.

            BTW -  you nailed the "core" of my post.  Crazies come in all flavors.  That's it.  Why does "Kos" focus on Tea Partiers, though?

            I fail to get why so many on this site are so threatned by Tea Party politics.

            Thanks for the discourse.

            •  You are right, state and municipal pensions are (0+ / 0-)

              not directly affected by the tax cuts or defense spending.  However, if it were not for tax cuts, primarily for the rich, states would have more money to contribute.  Defense spending saps a large portion of the federal budget.  What is spent on defense can't be spent on more important things, including helping states.  If we had invested much of our military spending in infrastructure instead, we would be in a much better place economically.  In some states more is spent on prisons than education.  It is easy to see why  we don't have any money left to fund pensions.

              I am glad that you have invested for your retirement and will be getting SSI.  Many state workers will only get their pension.  I am sure you are looking forward to your SSI, and they are looking forward to their pensions.  The fact that they are underfunded is not their fault.  By the way, it looks like we are going to do the same with SSI too.

              Again, you are right, the pensions have been chronically underfunded.  I am not sure why that wouldn't mean they are owed more rather than less.  We have indeed kicked the can down the road.  By not investing in things that matter, like infrastructure, education, vocational training, research, renewable energy, and pensions, to name a few, we have kicked the can down the road.

              Thank you for your diligence in checking who posted what.  Apology accepted.  I think I owe you an apology for my tone in retrospect.

              Why do many on Kos focus on the Tea Party?  Well, unlike say, young males, they are a political group and this is a political site.  Obviously, many of their positions are the opposite of those held by most Democrats.  Though crazies do indeed come in all flavors, it seems the Tea Party has more than its share.  Frequently, they are full of violent rhetoric.  Though I don't think you can blame the shooting on what anyone said, since Jared pulled the trigger, I think it is part of an atmosphere that contributes statistically to overall violence.  That is, sometimes violent rhetoric begets violence.

              I hope that all Americans can agree that corporations shouldn't be running the country and be given free speech rights.  I don't see what is happening in this country as Democrats vs Republican or Tea Partiers.  I see it as We the American People versus corporate power.

    •  Cut the spending and they'll just go away? (4+ / 0-)

      You cannot be serious.

      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

      by JTinDC on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:16:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sure.... (0+ / 0-)

      Cut the spending and they'll go away.

      Which is exactly why W didn't have to deal with the teabaggers -- no wasteful spending on, say, wars of choice or tax cuts for the rich when W was in charge.......

      ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

      by TFinSF on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 01:34:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Support Idea Different from Would Do It (0+ / 0-)

    The question wasn't "Are you personally thinking about taking violent action against the government" it was a question about the idea of violence and as such measures the intensity of the disdain an individuals has for the current governnment.  I am willing to bet that during the Bush years their were people from the opposite end of the political spectrum that would not have shed many tears over violence aimed at Republican leaders even through they had no intent of encourging violence, much less committing it.

    As an aside I recall my Grandpa who was a New Deal Democrat and a very non-violent person who would never have wished harm on anyone but so despised Reagan that the day he was shot he muttered under his breath, "Nobody can do nothing right any more."

    •  Shhh.. (0+ / 0-)

      We're blaming violence on the tea party here.

      On this MLK day, to prove how non-violent and spiritually advanced we Big-Boy Pants(tm) Democrats are, all discussion of violence will be limited to rhetorical violence, of and by the powerful, ruling Tea Party, and strictly framed within the domestic sphere.

      Torture?  Abu Ghraib?  Two (ongoing) wars of bigoted aggression which have slaughtered tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents?  Thousands of GIs killed and tens of thousand more crippled?  The largest prison population in the world, held in brutal, dehumanizing, degraded conditions?  

      As we consider violence on MLK day, none of these things will be considered.

      We're the smart, liberal ones.

      Dontchya know?

      Please don't feed the security state.

  •  Reich Wing talking heads (0+ / 0-)

    Are all cowards, they work their audience up into a frenzy and when one of their viewers goes on a rampage they say; What did I do?

    During the blowback from the Tucson shooting democrats including myself slammed the Reich wing talking head as responsible for creating the atmosphere of hate and violence that we have, which is well documented and well deserved.

    There are many shootings over the last few months and years were the shooters have been linked to these Reich talking heads here is a example from MMFA.

    Reich wing talking heads don't care about who lives or who dies, they only care about how it could affect them which is why for the last week they have been pounding their drums with excuses as to why they are not at fault and why the fault lies with democrats and liberals. the same BS they always give when their words have caused someone to act out with some form of extremism.

    Reich Wing talking heads are cowards.

    Las Vegas Democrat Examiner

    by David Phillips on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:50:54 AM PST

  •  This post is misleading. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lorpius Prime

    17% of young adults (18-29) feel that violence is justified as well.

    Are 17% of us dangerous extremists?

    It probably sounds sexy to say that violence is justified to certain people, but saying that violence is justified is not the same as saying that it's a preferred course of action. Or wise. Or likely. Or anything more than bluster.

    And then you have to define violence. Which isn't necessarily agreed upon by anyone.

    No love for the Tea Party. But hey. Come on.

    "There's nothing new except for the history that you don't know." -Truman...but I am Colin Kalmbacher

    by krikkit4 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 11:57:08 AM PST

  •  The old and... (0+ / 0-)

    especially the young flirt with violence. The latter, as a whole, even moreso that the Tea Party.

    Looks like the 18-29 year olds are the first generation to be less tolerant of gay rights than the one before.

  •  Terrorists Are Terrorists (0+ / 0-)

    I see little difference between the rhetoric and actions of the internatio­nal terrorists and domestic terrorists­. Both seek to intimidate the civilian population­, influence government policy through intimidati­on or coercion, and effect the conduct of government by any means necessary, including violent acts.

    The leadership is similar as well. Like the political and religious leaders abroad who are rightly criticized for their hesitancy to condemn internatio­nal acts of terrorism, the so-called leaders of the republican right are timid to condemn the domestic terrorism here at home. Indeed, even a mild condemnati­on from a republican against the extremist rhetoric and violent acts are now deemed by some as an invite to be primaried.

    Perhaps most frightenin­g of all, the extremist rhetoric from those on the right often mirrors the rhetoric of the internatio­nal terrorists­, and their shared goal of destroying the U.S. government is eerily similar.

  •  I figured it out (0+ / 0-)

    Just link to the poll. I also see that 13% of Tea Partiers have a favorable opinion of President Obama.  So they must be thinking about taking out Boehner.

    I was worried there for a minute.

    It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness - Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Fish in Illinois on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:09:22 PM PST

  •  Maybe not calling them Teabaggers would help? (0+ / 0-)

    I mean, if they see the left as the enemy, why not try to provoke them just a smidge less?

    Moderation in most things. Except Reactors. IFR forever!

    by billmosby on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:10:42 PM PST

  •  Only 88% of Americans have an opinion? (0+ / 0-)

    The other 12% are more dangerous than the Tea partiers IMHO

    Oh Yeah? Go Friend Yourself!

    by roguetrader2000 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:17:34 PM PST

  •  Advicating the violent over-throw (0+ / 0-)

    of our Government used to be an actionable offense.  Now that treasonous talk has come out of the shadows and become (for many) acceptable we are faced with a crisis of civil unrest.   Ordinary citizens talk violent over-throw, some politicians proudly run on platforms full of threats of violence, and even the SCOTUS lends credence to these violent people who strive to over-throw the Constitutional government.  Their incipient treason is more destabilizing than the phony debt crisis which, by the way, these same right wingers are fomenting.

  •  Visual demonstration of these numbers. (0+ / 0-)

    Among the Tea Party Population:

    Y
    NNNNNNN

    Among the non-Tea Party Population:

    Y
    NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

    Tea Party followers are more than three times as likely as non-supporters to believe that violence should be employed against our government.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:18:58 PM PST

  •  believing its justified doesn't mean you'll do it (0+ / 0-)

    As much as I agree with the sentiment, I think reading this poll this way is wrong.

    13% of tea partiers believe violence is justified, making them heartless bastards, but not necessarily borderline domestic terrorists.

    Personally, I believe the number of tea partiers who believe it is justified is probably much higher, they just won't admit it in a poll. Also, I think the number of tea partiers ready and willing to use violence themselves is also probably higher (with, again, many who won't admit to it in a poll).

    My only beef is that I don't like misreading polls like this, because it undermines our argument, which is backed by a lot of facts, this not being one of them.

    Just as I thought that earlier poll showing that people blamed the individual and not violent rhetoric was bullshit and should not be read as people not holding right-wing rhetoric accountable, so too do I think this poll should be read for what it is.

  •  Poor people are more dangerous than Tea Partiers (0+ / 0-)

    Not surpising you didn't lead with that one.

    Oh Yeah? Go Friend Yourself!

    by roguetrader2000 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 12:22:41 PM PST

  •  Description of the CSV file not adequate (0+ / 0-)

    When you look at the responses to some of the items, there are more responses than are listed in the key, and I hate to have to guess about what they mean.

    Greg Shenaut

    PS However, based on some guesses, check this out:

    I just played around with the raw data and found something unexpected and rather sobering. The first thing I noticed was that youths were even more likely to justify anti-government that TPers.

    So, I snagged the raw data and ran an Age x TP x Violence ANOVA as follows: I left the coding for age along; I eliminated “Not sure” from the TP data and analyzed only those who stated either Yes or No; On violence, I coded Yes as 100, No as 0, and eliminated the “Not sures”. This last was the dependent variable; think of it as the degree to which violence was justifed, on a scale from 0 to 100.

    As reported in the diary, there was a strong effect of Age, F (3,779) = 7.152, p < .001 (mean degree of justification of violence: 18, 4, 4, 8 for the increasing age ranges) and also a strong effect of TP affiliation, F (1,779) = 12.737, p < .001 (12 vs 4). But what was interesting was the Age x TP interaction, which was also strong, F (3,779) = 5.233, p = .002. When you look at the means for the interaction, it's pretty clear what is driving the interaction effect: for the 11 individuals who were both Young and TP, the degree of justification of violence was 46 out of a possible 100. This is about 2.6 times greater than the second highest cell, Old (>65) TP, at 17. It is also noteworthy that the 3rd highest cell is Young non-TP, at 12.

    My conclusion from these numbers is that yes, there may be a violence problem for TP members regardless of age, and for Young Americans, regardless of TP affiliation; however, there could be a very large potential violence problem for Young Americans who have been contaminated by TP rhetoric.

    Chilling.

    Greg Shenaut

  •  Since there are many more non-TP folks (0+ / 0-)

    the 4% counts more than the 13% in terms of actual numbers. Frankly, it's pretty bad when even 4% think violence against their elected government is justified.

    •  Thanks for pointing this out... (0+ / 0-)

      By this survey, the share of the overall population that

      - is in the Tea Party, and believes violence is justified: 17% x 13% = 2.2%

      - is NOT in the Tea Party, and believes violence is justified: 83% x 4% = 3.3%

      Said another way: 3 out of 5 whackjobs do NOT identify with the Tea Party.

  •  Baggers keep saying they have Democrats in their (0+ / 0-)

    ranks. Any polls. They got to be 85% GOPers and 15% GOPer liars.

  •  poll (0+ / 0-)

    Oh, please.  What do you think this same type of poll, done in the 60's and 70's, would have looked like?  Probably 35%% or more of liberal voters would have approved, and in fact, committed violence against the gov't.

  •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not surprised that the highest number of that poll is in the Midwest, although I'm surprised the South had a low number.

    My far-right sister just tried to get me to read this one book. I never heard of it, but it was titled...."Death by Government." She said that government's killed more people than war. I told her that since the right has all the guns here, that will happen if the Bush people are in charge again.

    Response...."Bush was a liberal"

    I asked her about this poll. Her response? "Not yet"
    When? "If they take our guns away."
    I said that won't happen, because of the ballot box.

    But how do I respond to "not yet?" I love my sister, but that's why I can't talk politics with her.

    Support Fair Trade. Buy American! Keep jobs at home. Political Compass Economy -6.62, Social -4.82

    by John Lane on Mon Jan 17, 2011 at 04:22:50 PM PST

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