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A new year, a new governor, a new war on women and their doctors in Kansas:

Filling a request from Gov. Sam Brownback, a coalition of Kansas House conservatives filed legislation on Wednesday to tighten state regulations on abortion.

The bill would change Kansas law to require parental consent for teenagers to get abortions and increase reporting requirements by the Kansas Department of Health and Environment. It also would give the attorney general and county prosecutors’ access to state health reports on abortions performed in the state.

Rep. Lance Kinzer, an Olathe Republican, said that the bill also contained late-term abortion provisions vetoed over the past three years by Democratic Govs. Kathleen Sebelius and Mark Parkinson.

It's not as if Kansas is currently a safe haven for women seeking to exercise their right to obtain a legal medical procedure. Kansas already requires parental notice for minors. It already requires a 24-hour waiting period. It already requires that doctors encourage their patients to undergo completely unnecessary ultrasounds. It already requires that doctors lie to their patients about the so-called link between breast cancer and abortion. (Hint: there is none.) It already protects medical providers who refuse to provide abortion services or information to patients.

But that's not enough for the virulent forced birthers in Kansas, like Gov. Brownback and State Rep. Kinzer.

[Kinzer] said the legislation was aimed at preventing another doctor from coming to Kansas to begin providing late-term abortions following the May 2009 killing of Wichita’s Dr. George Tiller. Kinzer also said the law would bring Kansas in line with the federal ban on a procedure opponents call partial-birth abortion.

“Certainly, I think legislative inaction, at this point in time, really opens up that opportunity,” Kinzer said. “We think it’s important to act proactively to make sure that the same loopholes and lack of enforcement that allowed Kansas to become a late-term abortion destination spot don’t exist in our laws going forward.”

Of course, the reason that Kansas became a "late-term abortion destination spot" is that Dr. George Tiller was one of only three doctors in the entire country who performed the extremely rare procedure. Until he was gunned down in his church, that is.

And of course all of this legislation is completely pointless because:

Planned Parenthood spokeswoman Sarah Gillooly said since Tiller’s death no abortions were being provided in Kansas after the 22nd week of pregnancy.

“I think it’s a shame that politicians are spending taxpayer time and money to regulate a procedure that doesn’t even occur in our state,” Gillooly said.

She said after Tiller’s murder by an anti-abortion activist and efforts by former Republican Attorney General Phill Kline to prosecute abortion providers that the climate in Kansas is not conducive for abortion providers to relocate to the state.

“I think it’s totally unfounded fear. What physician would want to provide that care in the state?” Gillooly said.

But when it comes to the war on women and their doctors, no legislation is too costly, too invasive, too restrictive, or too unconstitutional for the people who claim to want to protect life because only the lives of fetuses matter.

The lives of women and their doctors? Not so much.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:36 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Prefer your "forced birthers" to anti-choice. (16+ / 0-)

    That's laying it on the line Kaili.

    Yes we can -- unless Republicans say we can't? (Wisdom of the Angry Mouse)

    by DavidHeart on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:38:39 AM PST

  •  I still believe that old, white men should have (11+ / 0-)

    absolutely no say whatsoever on a woman's right to choose.

    When men can get pregnant, perhaps they'll have a right to offer their opinions.  Until then, forget it!

    "A free society that will not help the many who are poor, cannot save the few who are rich." JFK, January, 1961

    by rontun on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:39:17 AM PST

    •  I agree but would include men of (9+ / 0-)

      all ages and colors.

      Suddenly I've changed from being a social liberal/fiscal conservative to sanctimonious purist.

      by RustyCannon on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:44:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No uterus, no vote, and no opinion (6+ / 0-)

      that counts.

      "Make it so", Jean-Luc Picard, captain of the Enterprise.

      by brainyblond on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:50:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  When it's between a rock and a hard place, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LuLu, Brooke In Seattle, HylasBrook, jm214

      "choice" is hardly the appropriate term.  It does, however, serve to confuse the issue and the locus of responsibility.

      The conservative mind relies mainly on what is plain to see.

      by hannah on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:56:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of course, all rules change if it happens to (8+ / 0-)

      be a governor's fourteen year-old girl, or the governor's buddy's daughter, who become pregnant.

      Then it's off to the nearest Planned Parenthood clinic.

      It is an old strategy of tyrants to delude their victims into fighting their battles for them. --FDR

      by Rube Goldberg on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:57:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  actually, they send (6+ / 0-)

        their kids out of state, or possibly country for their abortions.

        -9.75, -7.49 "He that will not reason is a bigot - He that cannot reason is a fool - He that dares not reason is a slave." Sir William Drummond 1585-1649

        by zamrzla on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:58:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hypocrisy... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tuscarora, irishwitch

        does not make one wrong; it merely makes one a hypocrite. This is ignoratio elenchi on your part.

        •  Hypocrisy makes a wrong when persons (0+ / 0-)

          in power pass and enforce laws they have no intention of following themselves.

          Decrying hypocrisy of John Ensign or David Vitter would be ignoratio elenchi since they are disobeying moral law, not ones passed by the US, State, or municipul government.

          (And, yes, I do know some states have laws against adultery.  Adultery, however, is not illegal under federal law.)

          HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

          by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:12:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, it doesn't. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tuscarora

            If Gov. Brownback signs anti-abortion legislation, and then cooperates in procuring an abortion for some female friend or relative of his, it is still entirely possible that he was right to enact that anti-abortion legislation. Yes, he'd be a hypocrite, but his hypocrisy has no bearing at all on the wisdom or moral rectitude of enacting the legislation in the first place.

            By way of analogy: a parent who instructs his children not to abuse drugs still does a good thing in so doing, even if he abuses drugs himself. He is still right when he tells his children that drugs are detrimental to one's physiological and psychological health. His hypocrisy does not make him wrong.

            •  Yes, it does make a person wrong. When a (0+ / 0-)

              person tells others not to do things and then does it themselves they are wrong.

              Your example of a parent who abuses drugs telling his/her kids not to abuse drugs is wrong.  Do these really think that their kids don't know they're abusing drugs?

              Actions speak louder than words.  What the children get from a drug addicted parent is bad parenting (the addiction is more important to the addict than their kids) and a cynical attitude to authority figures because their parents lie to them.

              Anyone who is not willing to practice what they preach is wrong.

              For instance, there is nothing wrong with being gay, closeted or otherwise.  But when a person gets up and publicly makes anti-gay remarks and turns out to have used gay prostitutes, the person is wrong.

              It's a characteristic of our society to not hold people in high circumstances responsible for their deeds.  Thus, like Gov. Brownback they make laws for poor people they themselves don't have to obey.   Wrong, wrong, wrong.

              And it is NEVER right to pass anti-abortion legislation.  The only abortion related legislation that is right is one that protects the safety and privacy of women.  And that protection should not be a way of creating high hurdles for women who need to and a pregnancy.

              HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

              by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 01:03:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Above: (0+ / 0-)

                Classic example of not getting it.

                You apparently can't tell the difference between moral error (doing something wrong) and intellectual error (thinking something wrong). My point is simply that just because you do something wrong, doesn't mean you were in error prior to that when you said that action is wrong. Thus, a governor who signs anti-abortion legislation and then obtains an abortion for a relative of his, can still be perfectly right about abortion being wrong.

    •  Fortunately for the U.S., ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tuscarora, adeodatus

      ... yours is a minority opinion. Segmenting out people by demographic and silencing them on important matters of social policy is antithetical to the values inherent in our representative democracy.

      I perfectly understand Americans giving different weight to the spectrum of opinions on this and other vital issues in the marketplace ... we all do that ... but telling a particular group that it has no voice at all strikes me as profoundly un-American.

      Many of the most powerful allies you have on the choice side are men of like mind. Do you really want to turn away allies because you're pissed off at some "old, white men"?

      I'd also be curious to know what "white" has to do with this discussion.

      •  I'm going to respond to you quite seriously (5+ / 0-)

        and without the flippancy of my original comment.

        First, I don't believe basic human rights should ever be subjected to a majority vote, and I believe a woman's right to control her reproductive system is as basic a right as there is.

        Second, what "white" has to do with it is quite simple.  Aging white men continue to hold most of the power in this country and especially enjoy wielding it over others.

        Third, if you are truly an ally and believe that the right to choose is an inherent right, then your voice should be superfluous.  Unfortunately, and I say this quite seriously, it isn't. And that's a damned shame.

        "A free society that will not help the many who are poor, cannot save the few who are rich." JFK, January, 1961

        by rontun on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:08:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I look forward to your ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... movement to alter the Constitution to make sure that only those legislators with a direct and lasting stake in an issue are allowed to vote on it or even debate about it.

          Let's be clear: I believe that the right to make decisions about one's body is an inherent right and, therefore, exempt from legislative whims. Unfortunately, public policy rarely recognizes absolutes and there will be debate and there will be votes on how best to codify those rights.

          Once again, you will need every allied voice to continue winning those votes in these times and signalling to one demographic that you're uninterested in its help is no way to build colitions and prevail.

          My belief in the rightness of choice and personal privacy may be unshakeable, but my time, my resources and my attention are finite and it's unlikely that I would spend three seconds volunteering any of them to a cause with leaders who are hostile to my presence just because I seem to represent a demographic set they've declared war on.

          I recall a workplace in which tehre were a few common-cause caucuses amongst the staff. A handful of people, me among them, who were sympathetic to the aims of one of those caucuses approached its leaders and asked what we could do to support their goals and were told to "Fuck off and mind your own business."

          I'm having a bit of a flashback.

        •  How then? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tuscarora

          First, I don't believe basic human rights should ever be subjected to a majority vote, and I believe a woman's right to control her reproductive system is as basic a right as there is.

          If we do not subject such things by majority vote, how then are we to decide them?

          •  If a right is determined to be inherent in our (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            martydd

            Constitution, then it should not be subjected to a majority vote.  Roe v. Wade made that determination.  The majority of any legislature or public vote should not be afforded any weight.

            Now, should the Supreme Court in its idiocy decide to reverse Roe v. Wade, then a process would be required to secure the votes necessary to amend the Constitution.

            "A free society that will not help the many who are poor, cannot save the few who are rich." JFK, January, 1961

            by rontun on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:52:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And how was the content of the Constitution (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tuscarora

              agreed upon? Oh, right: ratification by a (super)majority of the states. The rights have still been determined by democratic process. Let's be honest: you hold this position only because the you agree with the status quo and so what to quash any attempt to change that, democratically or otherwise.

              If Roe v. Wade went the other way and there was a broad consensus among Americans that abortion should be legal, would you still feel the same way?

              •  I do believe I addressed your question in (0+ / 0-)

                my comment.  Should Roe v. Wade be reversed, then yes, a process would be required to secure the votes necessary to amend the Constitution.

                And no, I don't hold this position only because I agree with the status quo.  I hold it because I believe the right is inherent.

                Should you wish to challenge that inherent right there is a process by which you can do so.  Amend the Constitution. I would never deny your effort to do so, but you can trust that I'd vigorously oppose you.

                "A free society that will not help the many who are poor, cannot save the few who are rich." JFK, January, 1961

                by rontun on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:21:40 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  I like your term "forced birther" (7+ / 0-)

    I also like "pro-criminalization" as a substitute for the misconstrued "pro life."

    As for Kansas, I'd be happy if I never have to set foot there again.  

    It's the Supreme Court, Stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:39:57 AM PST

    •  Deprivation of rights under cover of law. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LuLu, irishwitch

      We've got a long history of that, beginning with slavery and continuing on into DADT, DOMA, the military draft, forced screening and electronic spying.

      The conservative mind relies mainly on what is plain to see.

      by hannah on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:59:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Love the Zygote (8+ / 0-)

    Hate the Baby!  That should be their motto.

    ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

    by Kristina40 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:40:36 AM PST

  •  Interesting that they would (19+ / 0-)

    consider "Obamacare" a completely unjustifiable intrusion into someone's healthcare, but have zero qualms about making decisions on women's reproductive health.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:41:54 AM PST

    •  I read an article in the NY Times a couple (6+ / 0-)

      of weeks ago about Roman Catholic priests meeting with rabbis and conservative Protestants to discuss how to reduce the number of abortions in the US.

      #1 - all the people at this meeting were men, including some committed to celibacy

      #2 - they talked about trying to convince pregnant women not to have an abortion, not how to help women from becoming pregnant.  

      #3 - no ability to see that birth control can limit the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

      #4 - No discussion of health care for mother and baby once the cild is born.  (Prenatal health care & harassment to have the child is their only financial consideration.)

      And, wait for it not a single mention of the responsibilities of the woman's male partner to prevent pregnancy.

      It never changes.

      HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

      by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:36:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Teabaggers love freedom! (11+ / 0-)

    The freedom to impose their religion on everyone else.

    Suddenly I've changed from being a social liberal/fiscal conservative to sanctimonious purist.

    by RustyCannon on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:42:55 AM PST

  •  Coathangers (6+ / 0-)
    Bleeding Kansas, 2015.
  •  Maybe they should put up a new flag- (5+ / 0-)

    Instead of the snake, a itty-bitty fetus under that "Don't Tread On ME!" logo...

    "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

    by jm214 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:45:51 AM PST

  •  gawg, they never get enough (8+ / 0-)

    utah legislature opens today.  i can't wait to see what they cook up.

    forced birthers - pro-birth.  

    all the tactics used by the anti-women group over the last 38 years are the tactics starting to be used against the political left.  

    and that overton window on violence: it's okay to kill someone at church.  schools are old hat.  

  •  It's not just Kansas. I don't recall the (10+ / 0-)

    specifics, but Missouri is also on the bandwagon of destroying the right of women's medical care. Other states are as well. I believe in the email from Naral it was 10 states. Thanks for sitting at home in Nov. Democrats, you have allowed the 25% crazies to take control. This is just sickening.

  •  "Late-term abortion destination spot"? Fuck them! (14+ / 0-)

    They make it sound like these women who need to terminate an emergency pregnancy--even when these pregnancies were planned and wanted--are going on a freaking vacation or something.

    And I bet that's their intent with that insidious framing of language. Fuckers.

    "How screwed up are we as a society when providing access to health care brings on murderous rage?" - Susan S

    by boofdah on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:49:34 AM PST

  •  Just had a "discussion" (7+ / 0-)

    with a forced-birther who claims contraceptives cause more abortions because Lifenews.com "said so." There is no getting through to those people. Grrr.

    No one ever died from laughing too often

    by googie on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:51:02 AM PST

    •  But we need to respect their views according (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd, LuLu, irishwitch, googie, supercereal

      to the (inevitably male) concern trolls who usually hijack diaries on this subject.

      Because they need to be "fair" and abortion is kinda icky. And they call themselves progressives, too.

      "Only vigilance and resistance to this baby dictator, Barack Hussein Obama, can prevent the Khmer Rouge from appearing in this country." Michael Savage

      by bay of arizona on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:54:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The claim contraceptives cause more abortions (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd, irishwitch, martydd, googie

      comes from forced birthers labelling all form of contraception abortions.  

      How a pill that prevents ovulation or a condom is abortion, I've never figured out, but most forced birthers are against any form of contraception.

      Kos is right to call conservatives "the American Taliban".

      HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

      by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:44:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Their claim is that it prevents (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HylasBrook, googie

        implantation of a fertilized ovum, and that kills  the "baby".  Same claim for IUD and Plan B.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:42:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  "contraceptive mentality" probably (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HylasBrook
        Along with "abortion minded". If you're using contraception you're already disassociating PIV sex from procreation then if the contraception fails then abortion is likely :/

        People with that mindset just can't accept that sex is often it's own purpose, that consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

        It's only half a victory when Change & Civil Rights don't include all persons

        by julifolo on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:47:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The interesting thing about this mindset that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          julifolo

          sex is only for procreation is that it is true for almost all animals that reproduce except for some primates.

          So by saying sex is only for procreation is basically saying we're no better than animals.  Kind of strange when the same people claim sex is only for procreation also think god makes it OK to kill animals and destroy their habitat because humans are 'more' than animals.

          HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

          by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 02:18:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's no coincidence ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LuLu, mrblifil, irishwitch

    ... that the Phelps family has found a safe haven in Kansas.

  •  I'm reading a book by Michelle Goldberg now... (6+ / 0-)

    ...and about 1/2 way through. It is fascinating, eye-opening, and profoundly disturbing--and I highly recommend reading it. It's called The Means of Reproduction, and it's precisely about the twisted, backwards, misogynistic mentality that fuels the anti-choice/forced birth movement.

    "How screwed up are we as a society when providing access to health care brings on murderous rage?" - Susan S

    by boofdah on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:52:34 AM PST

  •  Conservatives are antagonistic towards (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    celdd, LuLu, HylasBrook, googie

    other people by default.  Why they are particularly antagonistic towards women is a puzzlement.  Is there a deep seated resentment against their own mothers who did or did not love them enough?

    Whatever the explanation, by focusing on the victims of this antagonism, rather than the perpetrators, a solution is not likely to be found.  At a minimum we should stop letting punitive politicians claim they're against abortion (Mother Nature's way of correcting mistakes, btw) and force them to admit that their agenda is to deprive women of medical assistance in connection with pregnancy. Instead of promoting the welfare of women, they intend to inflict harm or let harm happen through "benign" neglect.  Given that public officials voluntarily assume obligations (for which they get paid), neglect is not appropriate.

    The conservative mind relies mainly on what is plain to see.

    by hannah on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:54:19 AM PST

  •  welcome to my nightmare (6+ / 0-)

    I live in Topeka, home of the Phelps gang, and slammin' Sammy Brown(nose)back. I am currently reseaching on a better place to live. It must be warmer than KS, be a state with progressives running it and have a house I can buy. Help me please!

    -9.75, -7.49 "He that will not reason is a bigot - He that cannot reason is a fool - He that dares not reason is a slave." Sir William Drummond 1585-1649

    by zamrzla on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:57:04 AM PST

    •  IL is pretty progressive. It's not warmer than KS (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LuLu, HylasBrook

      at least not northern IL. If you get away from Chicago just a little bit, housing is quite reasonable and quite a bit to choose from. There are still a lot of righties though.

    •  I know how you feel... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      HylasBrook

      I have an aunt, uncle, and cousin, two of the three are teachers in Topeka, and all are progressive.  Good luck with Brownback and his "office of the repealer".

    •  Same here (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StepLeftStepForward

      I live in the Flint Hills and since Brownback and the insane Kobach have taken over I'm selling my house and moving to Missouri.  Small difference, I know, but I know that Brownback is going to plunge this state into chaos.  Not going to be here to see it.

      you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows

      by Dem Beans on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:16:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damn. Flight of the KS Progressives :( (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dem Beans

      I recommend Oregon, though housing prices are steeper. But you could probably find something affordable, provided you don't need to live in Portland.

      •  I've actually looked at (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StepLeftStepForward

        Oregon. The Eugene area looks promising. It may be a while before I make my move. I have to convince my family, although I think the legislature and governor will help me.

        -9.75, -7.49 "He that will not reason is a bigot - He that cannot reason is a fool - He that dares not reason is a slave." Sir William Drummond 1585-1649

        by zamrzla on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 12:41:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I moved from Lawrence to Portland (0+ / 0-)

          in the 80s (now in Europe). I'd dreamt of the NW since I was 10, when I learned that part of the Oregon Trail went through my back yard and then actually rode my horse on part of it as the Bicentennial celebrations. I finally moved there sight unseen. It was a dream fulfilled - the coastline, the green, green land, the mountains, the pristine wilderness and the clean, gorgeous rivers, as well as the progressive politics I'd always wanted. A mayor and councilors who ride bikes and miles and miles of bike paths and gorgeous forested parks - check! Bottle deposits - check! Awesome community radio - check! Recycling - check! Etc., etc.

          Eugene is awesome, too. While I hate to see KS lose progressive voters, I wholeheartedly endorse Oregon and believe your family would appreciate it.

  •  The radical Republican party is true evil (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    celdd, LuLu, HylasBrook, GenuineRisk

    towards Americans especially women. Women clearly can't be trusted to make our own decisions. I say old white men and women give up their rights first.

    Tax cuts create votes not jobs.

    by OHknighty on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:58:38 AM PST

  •  excuse if repeat to the thread (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LuLu

    GOP/TEA/NEOCON/LIBERTARIANS will remain dead in CA until [they] won't be hostile to people who aren't old and white. ~ Darry Sragow,USC/LA Times Poll

    by anyname on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:00:58 AM PST

  •  As a Kansas City resident on the MO side... (12+ / 0-)
    ...we have all been subjected to the countless Dr. Tiller type of witch hunts.  The subject of Thomas Frank's book "What's The Matter With Kansas?", Mission, is just west of the Kansas City on the Kansas side, literally 1 mile from the MO/KS border. Olathe is about 10-15 miles southwest of Kanasas City.

    Phil Kline has been making headlines for years after the last time he put Tiller through the ringer, a trial at which Scott Roeder attended, and Kline was publicly reprimanded by the judge for ill-fated attempts to access hundreds of patient health records because the claimed that they would prove that Tiller was illegally performing late-term abortions on underage girls without parental consent amongst other things.

    The result of the trial was Tiller was found innocent, partly because he was, and partly because of Kline's blatantly obvious attempt at smearing Tiller.  

    Several months later, well we all remember what happened...

    •  Thomas Frank is just wonderful. I saw the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd, LuLu

      documentary on that book, still need to read the book, but it was certainly interesting, and enlightening.

      •  Despite it's size KC is still... (4+ / 0-)

        ...incredibly conservative.  For instance, at the Royals games, (Yes, we have an MLB team, mostly for the purposes of developing talent to farm to the rest of the league) instead of a seventh inning stretch, they play Garth Brooks.  Ok, I don't fancy country much, but for all the attempts that KC makes at being a booming metropolis as the rough dividing line for corn and wheat production in this area, it still remains incredibly backwards, conservative and racist.  Boasting a metro populus of over 2 million, KC is larger in physical size than St. Louis, but we still barely went for Obama in 08.  

        We do not have a single program of any kind that is either syndicated or local that is progressive.  All we have are conservative stations that play, Rush, Glenn, Savage, Hannity, Levin, and some local lunatics that are cut from the same cloth as Allen West's first pick for Chief of Staff.  It's a rough place to be a liberal...

        On the plus side, Emmanuel Cleaver, is the leader of the Congressional Black Caucus, he's my congressman, for that I am proud.

        •  Agree (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          irishwitch, StepLeftStepForward

          When I lived in KC in '04 I phone banked for Kerry and I dreaded getting a call sheet for certain neighborhoods or cities.  I'll add that the most abuse I got was from Independence, which would make Harry whirl in his grave.

          My least favorite Royals experience is when I went to the stadium to see them play the A's (I'm a Californian and an A's fan).  It was "Christian Family Night" and they played Christian rock between innings and had some kind of pre-game parade of local churches.  The whole thing was creepy.  The stadium was packed and it clearly wasn't for the last-place Royals.

          you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows

          by Dem Beans on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:22:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I hadn't heard about Dr. Tiller's trial. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd

      Generally, the laws put such a chilling effect on women and abortion providers, that no one tries breaking the law to see if they would be prosecuted.

      I would say that if legislators had to face actually putting an abortion provider and a woman on trial, they wouldn't have as much of taste for such punitive laws.

      But, teh state can decline to prosecute and let the force-birther terrorists "take care" of the abortion provider and the women.

      It's become we need an underground railroad for women needing abortions just like they had underground railroads for black slaves in the 1840's and 1850's.

      HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

      by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:52:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "Menstrual Bloody Libel Kansas" n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LuLu, HylasBrook

    Präsidentenelf-maßschach;Warning-Some Snark Above;Cascadia Lives

    by annieli on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:05:10 AM PST

  •  "Issues" like this say so much about how the huma (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    celdd, LuLu, irishwitch, HylasBrook

    n mind operates. The folks who align with our opposition seem to have a bunch of identity-linked hot buttons that operate as their tribal totems, without respect to the wisdom, "humanity" or common sense of any of them. Occurs to me to call them "flag issues," since all of us have them to a greater or lesser extent.

    Too bad it doesn't seem possible to analyze and deal with them, "flag" issues that is, as a genera of pathology rather than as the provoking displaying of blue-painted buttocks at "the enemy" across the valley, before the hordes of warriors charge down to start hacking at one another.

    Gald to see some acknowledgment that the pathology on the right is not the exclusive province of the males. One step toward understanding the process and maybe making some motion toward treatment and cure. On the other hand, humans are tribal, apparently by Intelligent Design, and we get so much perverse pleasure out of Struggles and Confrontations and Forcing Others To Do Our Bidding...

    "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

    by jm214 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:06:10 AM PST

  •  Kansas (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    celdd, LuLu, mrblifil, irishwitch
    At least its still really easy to buy a gun in Kansas
  •  These "save the baaaaaaby" people make me puke. (8+ / 0-)

    No restriction is too intrusive.

    No lie is inexcusable.

    No "protest" is too violent.

    No cost is too high.

    These fuckers ought to just come out and say what they really think.

    No woman is worth a shit.

    My dogs think triciawyse is smart and pretty. They think I'm a strange, frumpy woman wth limitless snacks.

    by martydd on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:07:30 AM PST

  •  At the risk of repeating myself... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HylasBrook

    I read SOMEPLACE a completely different take on the issue.

    The FETUS has no right to force the mother into what amounts to nine months of "servitude" ...

    Interesting, if nothing else.

    Because you can't spell Reinse Priebus without RNC PR BS.

    by LuLu on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:16:09 AM PST

  •  Fatal genetic anomalies (7+ / 0-)

    are extremely rare, but they happen. Anti-late abortion hate mongering is such a hostile, evil act. These are tragedies, and the idea that the engines of the State require women to travel great distances to prevent being forced to carry such a pregnancy to term is just horrific. The ultimate irony is the hate mongers preach a style of government crafted on a model of minimal intervention by the State.

  •  Hey, no matter that I beat my wife :) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    celdd, irishwitch, HylasBrook

    and she's leaving me, I believe in "protecting the family."

    Problem with feminism and women's rising independence these past few decades is that it really hasn't sat well with many middle-aged frat boys. Who vote Republican and listen to Rush Limbaugh, etc.

    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

    by karmsy on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:22:45 AM PST

  •  I am completely pro-choice (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HylasBrook

    But I think our side would have been better served by more transparency about exactly what procedures are performed by late-term abortion providers and a summary of the diagnoses and reasons for the abortions.  The anti-choice side makes it sound like women choose late abortions on a whim. To counter these accusations, I have only ever heard vague platitudes. Is more accurate information available somewhere?

    I consider a late abortion as a grave decision, and I know there are many tragic and scary medical reasons why they are necessary. Did Dr. Tiller turn away requests for late abortions that didn't meet some medical criteria?

    •  I believe in medical privacy. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd, Bill W, Dem Beans, irishwitch, googie

      Women should not have to "justify" their decisions to anyone.

      My dogs think triciawyse is smart and pretty. They think I'm a strange, frumpy woman wth limitless snacks.

      by martydd on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:33:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, President Clinton did exactly that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd, Reepicheep, irishwitch

      when the Republican Congress passed the 'late term abortion' bill.  He brought together 10 women who explained why they had to terminate their pregnancies so late in its term.  They all had severely deformed babies, and for some, bringing the baby to term - one that had no chance of survival - reduced their ability to have a healthy baby at a later date.

      It helped make people understand what medically indicated  terminations are.  But, once again, the right used inflamatory terms to describe the procedured.

      Now many people have bought into the terminology and think the woman is changing her mind at the last minute.

      And as far as convincing the forced birthers, don't waste your time.  They have their own reality they are operating from, and little things like 'facts' have no role in their thinking.

      HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

      by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:00:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  In the 1900s 5 women came forward (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irishwitch, VirginiaBlue, HylasBrook

      to tell their stories of why they had late term abortions. They all had very serious life and health threatening reason, all the situtions were different. The women had all planned their pregnancies. Some went on later to have children, some did not. When one woman and her husband tried to adopt a child, the so-called pro-lifers tried to stop her because she has had a later term abortion(to save her life). Another woman and her husband had to move because their neighbors and so-called friends made their lives miserable.

      Women will not come forward now because of the violence of the so-called pro-life movement. These women don't want to be stalked, harassed or killed.

    •  It's been done. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      julifolo, Reepicheep

      60 Minutes did a story about 10 years ago, when the ban was hot news. There have been plenty of other stories in newspapers and magazines.

      Here are some:

      http://www.boston.com/...

      http://www.boston.com/...

      http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/...

      http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/...

      http://www.medic8.com/...

      http://www.guttmacher.org/...

      http://www.drhern.com/...

      One of the reasons the right likes to jump on is the "meantl health" reason.  What occurs to me would be a good reason for this is a woman who is on medications for mental illnesses like bipolar disorder or chronic clinical depression or schizophrenia--meds that often result in harm to the fetus, requiring her to stop taking drugs necessary to prevent her from becoming a danger to herself or others. THEY make it sound like the woman is unhappy because she's not logner a size two.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:35:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Aboslutely. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        irishwitch, VirginiaBlue

        Medications for manic-depressive disorder, severe depression, and other illnesses are just as important as medicines for people with diabetes and seizure disorders.

        The other piece of this is that being pregnant really fucks up your chemistry. It messes with your emotions, your sleep and your energy. Somebody who already has a chronic condition like manic-depressive disorder is going to be seriously messed up if she has to go off of her meds and deal with the emotional roller coaster at the same time.

        "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

        by Reepicheep on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:21:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's the reason why I get angry when (0+ / 0-)

          folks make the mental health reason sound trivial. I have night terrors. Without meds I wake up several times a night( briefly and don't recall it) which is partially responsible, along with circumstances for my having a bout of clinical depression in 91-92. I was sleeping lots of hours but it was constantly interrupted sleep.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:34:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I live in Rep. Kinzer's district (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HylasBrook, StepLeftStepForward

    In fact, I live in the same neighborhood he does.

    It would be almost impossible to create a legislator more diametrically opposed to what I believe in than Kinzer -

    Let's take a look at some of his body of work:
    http://www.knea.org/...

    Criminalizing English teachers (and others)

    An amendment to the obscenity laws that would have removed the defense of educational merit from K-12 teachers when a parent decided to challenge teaching materials proposed by Rep. Lance Kinzer (R-Olathe) made it out of the House Federal and State Affairs Committee but was referred to the House Education Committee by the full House. Education Committee members would not give the bill a hearing.

    No higher education for children of illegals

    A Rep. Lance Kinzer (R-Olathe) proposal to strip illegal aliens of benefits that they cannot get under current law also would have stripped their children of in-state tuition rates and, in the analysis of KNEA and KASB, of the right to even attend a Kansas postsecondary institution. The bill made it out of the House Federal and State Affairs Committee but was turned back by the full House when it was referred to the Judiciary Committee.

    By the way, here is a link to his page:
    http://www.lancekinzer.com/

    The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. --George Orwell

    by jgkojak on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:01:40 AM PST

  •  If a woman DIES (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    celdd, julifolo, irishwitch, HylasBrook

    because she she could NOT get a late term abortion then maybe they will see the light, but I doubt it, as ANTIs don't care about women. They'd rather save a fetus that will not live anyway outside the womb than protect a woman's reproductive health. The so-called pro-lifers have become so much more violent and scary that women will no longer come forward to tell their stories.

    •  Exactly, the past legislative exceptions, (0+ / 0-)

      rape, incest, the life of the mother, has gone by the boards, it's conception = birth no matter.

      Wouldn't be surprised if some forced birthers would want to check out a woman having a miscarriage to make sure it was a "natural" one and not the result of trying to terminate a pregnancy.

      HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

      by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:20:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The non-existant exceptions (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HylasBrook
        Even if there are exceptions on the books, if the anti-abortion mentality of the local politicians and DA is strong, medical personnel are at risk.

        If the mentality is "pregnancy isn't an illness" and "abortion is never necessary", then the attitude will be "the woman lied, the doctor lied" and if the doctor has "proof" that the woman's health was in danger, it's either falsified or doesn't mean what the doctor says it means.

        It's only half a victory when Change & Civil Rights don't include all persons

        by julifolo on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:56:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are right. They have other ways to (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          julifolo

          harass women now.  But I remember in the '70's forced birthers would appoint themselves legal guardians of fetuses and try to fight a termination that way.

          A really disgusting case was this: A woman, 7 months pregnant had a severe traffic accident.  She was in a coma and needed surgery.  She was able to get through that, but the doctor treating her told her husband that he should terminate the pregnancy because it would endanger his wife's life.  Obviously, this was a wanted child, but the mother's health came first.

          Fortunately, the forced birther was smacked down, but in the week or so it took to resolve this issue the woman's life was in danger and the husband was going through hell.

          When the phony guardianship tactic failed, they started to go for terrorist activities and strangling access with laws.

          HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

          by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 01:09:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  The blurring of lines (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rebecca, irishwitch, HylasBrook

    The GOP have been blurring the lines as they use late-term abortions to dismantle all abortions.

    Here is TX, Slick Rick has added a requirement of a sonogram prior to early term abortion to his list of "emergency legislation".  This legislative process means it needs to procede with the accelerated speed, instead of within the normal legislative process.

    If you believe Rick, this legislation an "emergency" while the budget that is seriously out of whack, nah, no rush!  

    •  THEIR definition is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      celdd, HylasBrook

      "anything later than 12 weeks".  In reality, the third trimester is where the law makes it difficult to get an abortion--after viability--and those are only done for life and health of the mother or because the fetus  is likely non-viable out of the womb..

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:15:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Part of the lie of the name 'late term (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        irishwitch

        abortions' is that it blurs the reality that these abortions are medically necessary.

        Because abortion is legal (if barely) most women terminate their pregnancies earlier than in pre-legal times because they no longer have to find a back alley abortionist, and pregnancy tests are more accurate earlier.

        HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

        by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:26:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's also a lot easier on the woman (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          julifolo, HylasBrook

          emotionally and physically to terminate earlier.  When studies show that women sometimes have a brief bout of  unhappiness after an abortion, it doesn't seem to occur to the anti-choice types  that an abortion and a miscarriage are physically pretty much the same, and that the resulting hormonal imbalance, which can damned well make someone teary ( not matter what their actual emotional reaction abortion (which, from what I've read is mostly relief).

          My suspicion is the reason they lump 2nd and 3rd trimester together as late term is so they can claim there are many more late term abortions performed than there really are

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 01:50:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They lie about everything. Even the 'post (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            julifolo

            abortion psychosis' is a lie.  Any major decision point in life creates ambivalence and thoughts about the 'road not travelled.'  But a lot of the sadness and discomfort after an abortion (in addition to the hormonal ones) comes from hearing people scream that abortion is murder.

            I really wish we could gather up these hateful people and put them on an island and let them hate the whole world, while the rest of us love and care for each other and don't get on TV and denounce a whole class of people.

            HylasBrook @62 - fiesty, fiery, and fierce

            by HylasBrook on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 07:21:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Everett Koop's meta study (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              julifolo, HylasBrook

              proved that while ther might be very brief sadness--it doesn't amoung to mental illness and has no long term effects. My personal theory is that most of the women who came forward and claim how damaged they were, are women who got hooked into a fundy church and drank the Kool-Aid.

              I'd love to see fudneis of all stripes sent soemwhere--and let themfight it out.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 08:19:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  The Moment of Conception! (0+ / 0-)

    I suggest the following:
    1.In order to receive a legal abortion the woman must bring to the clinic the man responsible for her pregnancy.
    2.The man will have his love marbles clipped,just like farm animals, pet's do,to prevent another women becoming pregnant.
    3.Anyone who protests abortions must serve in  community service! For every hour protesting one hour of community service will be required,no ifs,ands or buts about it!
    4.No more Viagra paid for by insurance companies!
    5.The following is a question that I haven't has answered by anyone since 1993.

    If life begins at "The Moment of Conception" who determines "The Moment of Conception?" In otherwords,life has to start at a defined moment in time,or does life begin at birth?  

  •  All these comments are fine, but (0+ / 0-)

    I would strongly suggest also making them outside this forum. I am quite convinced that the reason we are still (alas) losing ground to the anti-choice/forced birth/pro-life faction or whatever you want to call it is that we have been slow in offering a clear moral defense of the right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy, based on a reading of the fourth amendment to the constitution ('The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated)
      Where are our billboards?

    An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish. Hence the difficulty of forcing anything into an empty head. -- Eric Hoffer

    by MichiganChet on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 09:55:29 AM PST

  •  "Destination?" (0+ / 0-)

    They're trying to make it sound like some kind of abortion tourism.

    There are now two doctors in the entire country that provide this life-saving procedure, because the religious terrorists have made it clear that doctors who perform it will be gunned down.

    Fuck this. I'm so goddamned tired of having a bunch of pasty-white old men make laws about my reproduction.

    "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

    by Reepicheep on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:06:41 AM PST

  •  WOMEN + abortions= murder, imprison them!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Reepicheep

    These pro-life hypocrites who want to make abortion safer are liars. St. Thomas Aquinas said that the soul has to have a real body to inhabit. Life does not begin at inception, or all women who have abortion are murderers and should be appropriately punished, not just the doctors who perform the procedure. So, what the right really wants is to declare a woman's body as public domain during her child bearing years. After, that she can have her life and her freedom.

    E.McCarthy:"Republicans feed the sparrows by first feeding the horses".

    by CarmanK on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:12:42 AM PST

  •  KS women just arern't that smart (0+ / 0-)

    I know -- I lived there for fourteen years, got to know many of them and couldnt figure out for the life of me, why they simply allowed men to both tell them and determine for them what women and the daughters could do with their bodies.

    Likewise, with the husbands -- why would any husband allow a total stranger determine what could be done with his wife's body?

    They are, quite seriously, some of the militantly dumbest folks I have ever met.

    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

    by dcrolg on Mon Jan 24, 2011 at 10:58:10 AM PST

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