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Contrary to conventional wisdom that public employees across our nation are collecting bigger paychecks than their counterparts in the private sector, the Economic Policy Institute has found quite the contrary. That's true in Wisconsin and Ohio, which have become the latest battle fronts in the right-wing's 65-year-long effort to gut the legal collective bargaining rights of Americans that were established after decades of bloody struggle during the New Deal.

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In Wisconsin, which has become a focal point in this debate, public servants already take a pretty hefty pay cut just for the opportunity to serve their communities ... The figure below shows that when comparing the total compensation (which includes non-wage benefits such as health care and pensions) of workers with similar education, public-sector workers consistently make less than their private–sector peers.  Workers with a bachelor’s degree or more—which constitute nearly 60% of the state and local workforce in Wisconsin—are compensated between $20,000 less (if they just have a bachelor’s degree) to over $82,000 a year less (if they have a professional degree, such as in law or medicine).

Here are the figures broken down by education, as evaluated by EPI.

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The deficit that Wisconsin faces is caused by the current economic downturn and the recent tax cut package.  It has nothing to do with the compensation of the people that educate our children, keep the streets safe and clean, keep dangerous chemicals out of our water, and keep insurance companies from taking advantage of us.  These public servants are already paid less than those in the private sector, and nationally, this gap has actually been increasing over the past few decades ...

The situation in Ohio is quite similar. In a "rigorous analysis" of full-time state and local government workers in Ohio, EPI found that they are undercompensated by 6 percent. The analysts screened for variables including hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, experience, citizenship and disability.

Among EPI's findings:

• On an annual basis, full‐time state and local workers and school employees are undercompensated by 6.0% in Ohio, in comparison with otherwise similar private‐sector workers. When comparisons are made for differences in annual hours worked, the gap remains, albeit at a smaller percentage of 3.5%.

• Ohio public‐sector workers are more highly educated than private‐sector workers; 49% of full‐ time public‐sector workers hold at least a four‐year college degree, compared with 26% in the private‐sector.

• Ohio’s state and local governments and school districts pay college‐educated workers 25% less in total compensation, on average, than private employers.

• In addition to having higher education levels, Ohio state and local government employees, on average, are also more experienced (23.2 years) than their private‐sector counterparts (21.7 years).

While some of the effects of the Great Recession have had a delayed impact on public employees, that impact is being felt big time now. Tens of thousands of lay-offs, furlough days, pay freezes and pay-cuts, and a continuing assault on public employees' health benefits (something that has been going on through premium raises and cuts in coverage for years) are all part of the damage being done.

While the likes of renowned liar and Andrew Breitbart pretends to be a friend of the little guy who he claims is being gouged by public workers such as those in Wisconsin and Ohio, the truth is that the efforts now being carried out are a culmination of the long-standing attacks against the whole concept of unions. Breitbart, Rush Limbaugh and the governors are mere mouthpieces for an oligarchy feeling its oats and viewing the current situation as another opportunity to weaken the resistance to their agenda.  One word, one attitude should describe the progressive agenda at this critical moment. It's a word and attitude we've seen revived in the past few days after a long dormancy: Solidarity!

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:45 AM PST.

Also republished by In Support of Labor and Unions and I follow and I Quote Meteor Blades in my Diary Group.

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Comment Preferences

  •  People power in WI is winning the day (17+ / 0-)

    over the self-serving lies of thugs like Breitbart.

    Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
    ¡Boycott Arizona!

    by litho on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:49:17 AM PST

    •  What happened to Wisconsin? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nicolemm

      Is this governor a  nutcase or what?

      •  The governor is a nutcase (7+ / 0-)

        but he leads an extremist faction in the state GOP that has been consolidating its power for quite some time.

        The state has been oscillating between liberal Dems and hard-right Repugs for some time now.  In the last election, Dem-leaning independents hard hit by the recession stayed home and the Repugs swept all state-wide offices.  Now that they're in, they're pursuing a scorched earth strategy in an effort to eliminate the Dems once and for all.

        Anybody who knows anything about Walker isn't hugely surprised by what's happening.  The pleasant surprise is that we seem to be winning.  We've certainly got public opinion on our side.

        Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
        ¡Boycott Arizona!

        by litho on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:33:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know if it it winning the day (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pHunbalanced, CMYK

      but importantly it is winning the battle for eyeballs, and progressives and supporters of public sector, collective bargaining and general democratic principles need to take those battle victories and use them in the larger war.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:44:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  MB, I'm stealing this as a republish (24+ / 0-)

    for Labor and Unions, not because it'll be seen by more folks there, but simply because I want to be able to keep it on hand as a reference resource on down the road...

  •  Please send this to (14+ / 0-)

    the Morning HoHo show.  I dare them to show these graphs.  Of course, why would a "news" show report news?

    And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

    by tobendaro on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:51:39 AM PST

    •  And how could a graph be news? (4+ / 0-)

      It's so much less fun than scurrilous and unfounded claims. It might make people think you're trying to make them think, and that would put your ratings right in the toilet.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:47:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Therein lies the problem (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tobendaro, JVolvo, gratis4
      Of course, why would a "news" show report news?

      All spin, all the time - has short--circuited the thinking of a large enough portion of the country that opinions or options that haven't been spoon-fed to them via the corporate media goons are anathema, or at least suspect.

      People who consider themselves smart, knowledgeable,  and up to date on current events are led to unreasonable conclusions as if they had a ring in their nose, and become cheerleaders in their own demise.

      The run-up to the Iraqatastrophe is a case in point.

      It's way past my pay-grade to find a fix for the problem but the first step to solving a problem is recognizing that it exists.

      If a million people held a Day of Rage protest on Wall Street - Would the revolution be televised?

      by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:54:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I continue to hope, (1+ / 0-)

        although with unremitting cynycism, that there is something in the works, a place, interactive, to get news agregate and no spin.  24/7, factual presentations with ugly people or no people at all.   I will continue to hope till the end of the country we know as the good ole USA.

        And she's good at appearing sane, I just want you to know. Winwood/Capaldi

        by tobendaro on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 10:58:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  People with a BA are making $62k - $82k? (6+ / 0-)

    What the fuck am I doing with my life?

    "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

    by GussieFN on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:53:13 AM PST

  •  link goes to wrong place (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, BOHICA, frisco, JVolvo

    can you please check and fix the link?

    I am a living, thinking entity that was created in the sea of information.

    by 2501 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:54:27 AM PST

  •  Don't confuse me with facts (9+ / 0-)

    I've made up my mind

    Desiderius Erasmus, once said: "War is delightful to those who have no experience in it".

    by BOHICA on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:55:32 AM PST

  •  Not for nothing... (15+ / 0-)

    This is also a part of the ongoing attack on government.

    If government doesn't pay a living wage, people won't want to work in that sector thereby advancing Grover Norquist's bathtub plan.

  •  Solidarity! (6+ / 0-)

    Feeling good about just contributing to Act Blue!

    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people. Noam Chomsky

    by willkath on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 07:56:14 AM PST

  •  It would really be nice to see some (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lgmcp

    polling on this to determine where the public is lining up.  Specifically, independents and centrists.  Probably most partisans, conservatives, and progressives have their minds made up as to who should prevail.

    As to who will prevail, we all know what is going to happen when the Wisconsin 14 show back up in Madison, but the narative of who should prevail is yet to be written.  

    Also, I think this has huge national implications.  I think the stakes could not be hire in terms of the labor movement and of the 2012 presidential election.

    Sure would be nice to see some polling.

  •  And yet, the mainstream media continues... (11+ / 0-)

    ...to report the RW meme as though it were incontrovertible fact.  They're echoed by far too many Democrats.

    No wonder we're on the cusp of losing this war.

    "Faced with what is right, to leave it undone shows a lack of courage." - Confucius

    by IndieGuy on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:00:57 AM PST

  •  Thanks MB (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, JeffW, IndieGuy

    Racist radical Republican Governor Kasich- "I don't need your people".

    by J Brunner Fan on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:03:01 AM PST

  •  Life is getting very ugly in this nation. (14+ / 0-)

    Class warfare is only bad if it's waged by workers.  When the likes of the Koch brothers and the Republican Party are leading, it's "patriotic."  They're already organizing tea baggers to stand against anyone planning rallies in support of Wisconsin teachers.

    •  Again (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JVolvo, congenitalefty

      http://www.laborarts.org/collections/item.cfm?itemid=428

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:50:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh goody! (4+ / 0-)

        Here comes Charlie! Charlie Marx, that is.

        It was simplistic, wrong-headed analysis in 1848, and it's simplistic, wrong-headed analysis today. The dinner party looks like fun, though.

        More to the point: I signed up many years ago as a liberal and began voting Democratic. I didn't sign up with the CP, the SWP or any variation thereof. Just like to remind the more extreme among us every now and again that there is also a center. Even more to the point—it's the center that always has, and always likely will, be the governing force in US politics.

        •  The proposed solutions (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gratis4, congenitalefty

          have not proved very successful, but the description of the problem seems to me quite ever-green.  

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:13:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Even the description (4+ / 0-)

            seems problematic to me. Absolutely there is the permanent problem of the many poor vs. the few rich. But this is an issue that long predates Marx and which was, IMO, more usefully and successfully analyzed by Adam Smith, among others (that would be the real Adam Smith, the one who never even uttered the term "capitalism").

            With Marx, I have to swallow a load of bilge about value and excess value, class consciousness, history as a force with direction, not to mention the also evergreen "reification of consciousness." Also not to mention: the revolution that is invariably called for. I'll pass.

    •  Class warfare is just what's happening in Wisc. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DMiller

      ... as Mother Jones reported on Friday. And it is the Koch brothers and their ilk waging the warfare. Thanks, trinite, for an on-the-mark comment.

  •  There's a revenue problem beccaus evil rich (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo, gratis4, JeffW

    people don't want to pay taxes and many non-rich people aren't working and paying taxes but using the radical R shredded safety net.

    Racist radical Republican Governor Kasich- "I don't need your people".

    by J Brunner Fan on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:07:46 AM PST

    •  Middle class people are (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JVolvo, gratis4, congenitalefty

      truly burdened by taxes - because their wages have not kept up and they are trying to maintain their standard of living.  Hence they are easily fooled into supporting lower taxes.  

      What they do not realize is that the overwhelming benefit of those tax cuts go to the extremely wealthy and they are just getting crumbs which will be offset by higher costs and lower services from government.  Their net benefit from the tax cuts will be negative, while the super rich continue with their grand larceny of our economy.

      "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." Maya Angelou

      by ahumbleopinion on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:34:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Freep this poll!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, Eric Nelson

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White

    by zenbassoon on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:16:36 AM PST

  •  Are salaries normalized? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cacophonix, JVolvo, JeffW, hmi
    On an annual basis, full‐time state and local workers and school employees are undercompensated by 6.0% in Ohio, in comparison with otherwise similar private‐sector workers.

    A very important factor in this comparison is that the salaries are compared on and "annual basis".

    This means that a teacher, who works 9 months a year is being compared to a private sector person who works 12 months per year.

    9/12 = 75%, so a teacher should by rights be paid 75% of what a similar person working all year would make.

     

    Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

    by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:19:30 AM PST

    •  I've yet to meet a teacher (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wsexson, JVolvo, ebohlman, Nespolo, schnecke21

      That works only 9 months.

      Desiderius Erasmus, once said: "War is delightful to those who have no experience in it".

      by BOHICA on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:21:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hi (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bobtmn, cacophonix

        I've got plenty to do during the summer, and only a small part of it is prep for the coming year. In any case, I have no hours, no appointments, no classes, nobody watching. It lasts s most of 3 months and mostly my own time. Do I work hard during the school year—absolutely. But anyone in the classroom who tells you they don't have fabulous vacation compensation—they're screwy.

      •  Both my parents were teachers (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cacophonix, Cream Puff, hmi

        Both my parents were teachers.   We took wonderful summer vacations camping around the USA.  We went to Europe once.

        My Dad built houses in the summer.

        Don't tell me teachers work all summer when they are not on the clock .  I know enough teachers now and then to know that is false.

        Teachers have a wonderful job, with summers off.  Rather than trying to get paid as if they worked full time, I'd like to see them argue that we should all get summers off.

        MB's argument is at the crux of the problem of why so many people are resentful of teachers unions.   It is a selective presentation of facts to make it seem like they are worse off than the rest of us.

        I learned in high school debate that if you do that, your opponents will smash you, and they should.

        Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

        by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:22:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um do private (6+ / 0-)

          sector employees get paid vacations?  Yeah thought so...what other benefits package?

          You do also understand that there are all sorts of requirements that teachers have to get every year to keep up with their certifications...when do you suppose they do that when they're supposed to be in the classroom teaching? I know in my district those certification courses cost money and guess what, I don't get reimbursed for them I have to pay for them out of my own pocket. Plus When are they supposed to get all those professional development certifications to keep their licenses current?Most people I know take courses over the summer...it's a requirement of their licensure and they can lose their jobs if they don't keep their certifications current and up to date.

          And if the job is so easy and so cushy and so overpaid as you seem to think...then why aren't you doing it. Why?

          Why are you so resentful of teachers with advanced degrees making money at all.

          Jeebus you're jealousy and resentful attitude is disgusting.

          It will not matter how much money was in my bank account, but the world may be a better place because I was important in the life of a child.

          by emal on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:34:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I presented only facts (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Justanothernyer, hmi

            I presented only a fact based argument.   I don't see how you read jealousy and resentment in it.  

            I do recognize that one of the common threads in your reply  is the ad hominum attack on the person who disagrees with the teacher union argument.

            Teachers are not the only ones who have to maintaining lifelong learning.  Every profession does so.    

            And benefits and vacations are of course included in the compensation studies.    By the way, teachers also get paid vacation days, and staff development days,  in addition to the 3 months off.

            Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

            by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 10:04:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You say this (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens, JVolvo

              Don't tell me teachers work all summer when they are not on the clock . (and present anecdotal evidence to support that)

              and say this....

               Teachers have a wonderful job, with summers off.

              and then say this (my bold)

              I learned in high school debate that if you do that, your opponents will smash you, and they should.

              So that's the basis of my comment..and I'm not trying to attack you personally just pointing out how you couched your facts and pointing out how it comes off sounding here to me.

              You still have to account for paid vacation time among private sector workers/professionals...do private sector people get paid vacation and/or earned time or whatever time off? Yes they do...so you're not entirely truthful and factual when you fail to factor all that into account and into your comparison here..that was what I was also trying to point out there.

              Meteor Blades responded below when he stated what the study was based on here.

              Lastly, that said, I know for a fact in my own unique position in the public sector (I left the private sector) that I am earning less hourly (significantly so...at least $15-20/ hour). ...never mind what I could get as a contracted services...it'd be more like double that. Yes it's just anecdotal, but it's also a fact for my profession.

              It will not matter how much money was in my bank account, but the world may be a better place because I was important in the life of a child.

              by emal on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 10:51:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Part of annual salary (0+ / 0-)

                Paid vacation time is part of annual salary, so it should be in the comparison already.

                Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

                by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:35:47 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And it's factored (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  3goldens

                  into the annual salary of teachers, yet you're the one who brought it up as saying it wasn't factored in correctly and the comparison was in error and was the basis for your main argument.

                  You need to be consistent when you factor it in across the board.  You can't say well 3 months should be subtracted for public sector salary, yet nope you can't consider what the private sector gets for time off in their salary.

                  That's all I was trying to point out here. Consistency across the board.

                  It will not matter how much money was in my bank account, but the world may be a better place because I was important in the life of a child.

                  by emal on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:50:22 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I wasn't considering summer = paid vacation (0+ / 0-)

                    I was not considering summer as paid vacation.  I don't think that it is usually thought of that way.      I have never heard of a teacher contract that specifies they get 3 months paid vacation.

                    Paid vacation is a specified benefit.  It is part of compensation.  Summers are more like time off without pay.   Corporations have that too.  

                    I also doubt that the comparison done by EPI is counting the three months off as additional compensation.   If it were, the salaries+benifits of 3 month vacation would be that much higher.

                    Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

                    by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 12:49:26 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's typically yearly contract (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      3goldens

                      Mine runs from July 1 of one year through July 1 of the following/ next year. My pay periods run every two weeks....26 of them.

                      It will not matter how much money was in my bank account, but the world may be a better place because I was important in the life of a child.

                      by emal on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 01:00:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  How long ago was that? 20 years ago? 25? 30? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DMiller, 3goldens

          Teachers I know NOW (and in the last 10 years) are busting their asses to keep up; often working part-time on their "summer vacation" - on top of their CEU work and ongoing education.  

          In case you hadn't noticed, the cost of everything is rising faster than most* teacher's pay - especially if their wages have been frozen.

          Is this a "Good Old Days" / Ward and June Cleaver memory that has nothing to do with the economic situation in The Here and Now?

          feh

          * "most" because there will always be exceptions.

          The Republican motto: "There's been a lot of progress in this country over the last 75 years, and we've been against all of it." ~ Hillbilly Dem's 78-yo Dad

          by JVolvo on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:10:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  depends upon jurisdiction/district (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emal, JVolvo

      some are only paid 9 months/year.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:54:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  When they are paid does not affect the comparison. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cacophonix, Justanothernyer

        Whether they are paid during the 9 months they work, or the payments are spread out over twelve months, the fact remains that they work 3/4ths time.

        Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

        by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:25:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  but the salaries are presented as (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo

          justifiably lower because it is only nine months of the year.  Then you are told that you can increase the salary to a yearly rate by taking up extra duties (i.e. summer courses) in order to "increase" your salary to a reasonable yearly rate by doing more work.  (speed-up).

          At least, that's how it was presented to me when I signed my contract.  "We recognize this salary is low, but that's because it is only a  9 month salary rather than a 12 month one".

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 10:00:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not a fact, since often times the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          emal, JVolvo

          non-classroom months are spent doing the continuing education and other career developments things that are required by the profession, and which in other professions in the private sector are considered part of the regular "working responsibilities" but for which, private sector professionals are often paid and considered to be "at work" when they are taking part in them.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 10:03:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am unaware of any private sector (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JVolvo, hmi

            profession which spends 1/4 of the time or even a large fraction of 1/4th of the time on career development including professions coping with far more significant technological changes than teaching.

            The claim that teachers spend their entire summers or a significant portion of them engaged in required career development will not pass the smell test.

            Please provide details of the requirements including link.

          •  I was in the middle of (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            3goldens

            this huge comment comparing teacher's salaries to what parents would have to pay baby sitters with a bunch of sites etc. and this freaking web site ate it.  (I'm not getting along with DK4)

            Here're my conclusions:  

            Wisconsin average teachers salary is $46,390

            http://teacherportal.com/...

            State of Wisconsin requires 175 days of instruction and most schools schedule 180 to account for snow days and parent teacher conferences:

            http://dpi.state.wi.us/...

            Parents would have to pay a babysitter with 10 years experience at least $12 an hour to watch their kid all day in Madison.

            http://www.care.com/...

            There are between 15 and 25 kids per class in Wisconsin schools.

            http://teacherportal.com/

            Most schools in Madison are in session from 7:30 am to 2:30 pm -- 7 hours.

            Teachers get an hour off for lunch.

            Calculation:

            15 x $12 =  $180 per hour if the parents were buying private baby sitters

            $180 x 6 = $1080 per day

            $1080 x 175 = $189,000 (175 is the minimum number of instructional days required by the Wisconsin Department of instruction.  If the school schedules 180 [most do] the total is $194,400).

            Even assuming for the purposes of argument that a teacher's salary package is 30% to 40% of his or her compensation and reducing the above numbers by that amount, I would argue that this would indicate that teachers are grossly underpaid, give what we pay babysitters.

            •  Except that (0+ / 0-)

              On the one hand, the teacher is not paying individual attention to a single kid which would drive the compensation way lower.   Hiring a babysitter for your two kids doesn't cost $24 dollars an hour, but likely the same 12.

              On the other hand, teachers have to deal with more than one kid.  I'm not sure how much it costs to hire a babysitter for five kids, but it would probably be a lot more than $12 and hour.  Unlikely to be  $60 though.

              On the gripping hand, teachers aren't babysitters.  

    •  The study also compares hours worked. n/t (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emal, JVolvo, gratis4, Eric Nelson

      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:32:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where? (0+ / 0-)

        I read the part of the study that you linked to.  I didn't see any reference to hours worked.  

        If you show me the data, I will change my mind.

        Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

        by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:43:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What I found (0+ / 0-)

          I did find this, but the details are missing.

          Wisconsin public-sector workers face an annual compensation penalty of 11%.  Adjusting for the slightly fewer hours worked per week on average, these public workers still face a compensation penalty of 5% for choosing to work in the public sector.

          If they are comparing the hours worked during a working week, to a private sector employees work week, it is still misleading.

          If we want to compare apples to apples, we need to compare salary and benefits as a function of hours worked per year.

          When I see a study that wraps up some numbers into a yearly total, and others into a work-weekly total, my critical thinking sensors start firing.

          Lets compare salary and benefits as a function of hours worked per year, then we will have valid data.

          Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

          by bobtmn on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 11:49:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Public employee overpaid? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, JVolvo, Eric Nelson

    Not this retired one!

    And what I'd like to do to Governor Walker? Well, lets just say if I said what I'm thinking, I'd be adding to Meteor Blade's workload, `k?

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:22:36 AM PST

  •  What will happen if this goes forward (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JVolvo, ahumbleopinion

    I work for an agency that does certain tasks on behalf of the state in exchange for partial state funding.  The employees are part of the state retirement system by code, but are NOT public employees.  Our pay on average is about a third to one-half lower than our state employee counterparts.  We have no union.

    Since the economy tanked here in Ohio (five years before the rest of you) we have been given furlough days, layoffs, and reorganizations galore. We have lost seniority privileges, been given personnel policies taken direct from industry and gone through just about every "make public service like a business" makeover that you can think of.  

    Not surprisingly, it hasn't made a bit of difference in our ability to provide the same amount of services on half the previous fundiing.  Also no surprise- when you cut services and hours of access, the public rapidly loses their interest in providing private support to make up that gap in funding, particularly in a recession.  Employees that are covering two and three staff positions are being asked to think about revenue generation and marketing, like we got that stuff along with our graduate training in the various social sciences (uhhh...no.).

    It's going to be hell for public workers if this stuff goes forward in the states.

    "I'm not a humanitarian. I'm a hell-raiser." Mother Jones

    by histopresto on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:29:54 AM PST

  •  I simply find it mindboggling (7+ / 0-)

    that I read on message boards, "We have to tighten our belts, they need to sacrifice, too." If someone came into your workplace and proposed cuts to your salary or threats to your livelihood, you would HOWL! It's so simple-minded.

    My husband was down-sized from a Fortune 500 company last summer (got to keep those stock prices up!) and is now working for a public university. Serious, serious pay cut! He likes it better for a number of reasons, not the least of which is he now has no part in peddling the products of that large corporation. There are trade-offs but this attitude that public employees are living large is just ridiculous!

    There's a reason Democrats won massively the last two cycles, and it wasn't because people were desperate for "bipartisanship". --kos

    by Debby on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:30:41 AM PST

  •  The next thing I want to know is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cacophonix, Cream Puff

    who the heck are these MDs and JDs that have apparently given up over 80K annually, according to these charts? Is 'given up' even the right term? Ditto for 'undercompensated," which also suggests that there is some job out there that all of these fine state employees have either quit or turned down for the sheer pleasure of serving the public.

    Or, they would be like the guy I knew, at the top of the Commerce Dept. non-political pay scale, with a Harvard MBA, who did his job in about 3 hours each morning and then left for a 3-hr. lunch-and-a-movie? Not sure if 'undercompensated' is the right word. Just to make it better, he retired at 62 with a very, very healthy pension—helped along by Commerce immediately hiring him on as a regular consultant. Nice gig!

    Or my friend the lawyer who went to work for NYC. Gets a very nice salary, builds up a fabulous pension, will retire early. For the moment, though, he dresses like a slob at work (never sees the public), takes 2-hour lunches daily and has never, ever, brought work home with him or stayed late to finish a project. Undercompensated?

    Yes, those are anecdotes. But they do make me question both the statistics and the characterizations of salary and motivations.

    •  Ahh, yes, (6+ / 0-)

      now comes a "subtle" troll, with reasonable sounding anecdotes, that are in reality bullshit.

      Your comment history is full of talking points and links to right wing sites.

      Nice try. No McCain points for you.

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:58:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ah, "troll" again (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cacophonix, Justanothernyer

        The perpetual charge from folks who can't wrap their minds around the notion that someone could disagree with them. And, of course, you are unhappy that, yes, I read a wide variety of blogs. Put those together and, eureka!, I must be a troll, i.e. a species of lying agent provacateur.

        Oddly enough, I don't take kindly to being called a liar. If you had an actual point, an actual argument, I imagine you'd make it. Instead, you throw up a middle finger and yell names. So, maybe instead the dwarf you named yourself after, you might more accurately switch to Dopey. You have a good day.

        •  Well aren't you special (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens

          with your clever name-calling?

          I didn't call you a liar, BTW. The line in italics is a sig line--it gets attached to all my posts.

          A little defensive, aren't we?

          Your right wing BS and false equivalencies have all been examined and found wanting. Peddle it to someone who hasn't heard it before.

          "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

          by happy camper on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 04:24:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  cut that out (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bobtmn, Justanothernyer, hmi

        It doesn't matter whether hmi worships Sarah Palin or Michael Moore.

        Pretending that the advantages of public employment don't exist or calling someone who points them out a troll is mindless partisanship.

        It's possible to believe in unions as a force for good while acknowledging that job conditions, security and retirement advantages can compensate for lower compensation.

    •  Heh nice load of crap there (6+ / 0-)

      I'm a Public Defender, I'll be glad to go to private wages.  You can even have my retirement back, we'll just go back over the last couple of decades and you can pay me the difference between my hourly wage and the going rate for a defense lawyer-remember, on many days I did dozens of cases-at a minimum of a grand a case I figure you owe me a few million in back payment, let alone what we need to pony up from here on out.

      I Know a place where a Royal Flush never beat a Pair" T. Waits

      by NearlyNormal on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:28:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  As a lawyer I am aware of numerous (4+ / 0-)

      lawyers who went from law firms to the federal government, taking significant pay cuts.   The U.S. Attorney's office in the Southern District of New York is filled with such people.

      The quality of life is somewhat better and the professional training is much better but many of those who choose to do this are doing it because they want to serve the public.

      I'm not claiming that this is representative of all public employees or even all lawyers, but among those giving up 80k+ a year, this is a fairly decent chunk.

    •  Your Anecdotes (6+ / 0-)

      don't cut it  I have private sector friends that enjoy long lunches as well.

      Why do you argue for a "race to the bottom?"

    •  The differences for professional degrees (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Justanothernyer

      are understandable, since the private-sector average is pulled up by high-paid corporate attorneys (there's no "making partner" in the public sector) and high-paid medical specialists (e.g. cosmetic surgeons). "Undercompensated" isn't automatically the right term, though you'd have to look at specific specialties to be sure. I think just about everyone at that level goes in expecting to make substantially less than they would in the private sector; that would be completely fine if not for lawyers/doctors who want to work in the public sector but can't because of their educational debt.

      If you Google "headache brain tumor", you will come away convinced that your headache is actually cancer—Seth Mnookin

      by ebohlman on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 02:09:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sorry to say that people hate (6+ / 0-)

    for anyone to have a shred of job security, if they don't have it themselves.  Even if the compensation and pensions aren't all they're cracked up to be, just the fact that public employees can't be walked to the door on a moment's notice, is an affront to them.

    As their boy W might have said, they want to LOWER the pie.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 08:45:50 AM PST

  •  Here in Fla. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, Cream Puff, JVolvo, gratis4

    It is the same thing...a war on public employees.

    We currently have the lowest cost of state employees per taxpayer and the lowest ratio of state employees per population of the fifty states.  State employees in Florida havve not had a cost of living adjustment in over five years.   Next on Rick Scott's agenda is the attack on public school teachers.

    This is a complete dismantling of government services that we are seeing in these states.

    The United States is not just losing its capacity to do great things. It's losing its soul.--Bob Herbert

    by gulfgal98 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:22:07 AM PST

  •  Gov. Walker, I understand, does not (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, JVolvo

    have a college degree.

    Per the chart above, his total compensation should be capped at $46,213.

    The most violent element in society is ignorance.

    by Mr MadAsHell on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:31:32 AM PST

  •  The EPI analysis is pretty poorly designed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ebohlman, Captain Antelope, hmi

    but the premise they are trying to rebut is ridiculous.

    Many public sector jobs have no private sector comparables.  How many private police officers do you know? (And, private security guards are not the same as  police officers.)

    Where there are private sector jobs which are comparable there is no clear pattern of whether those in the public sector are paid more or less.   For example, lawyers in the public sector make less while teachers in the public sector appear to make more.

    Even where jobs are ostensibly the same they can be very different.  I remember a conversation years ago with someone who worked for the NYS AG's office, who said that when he joined he was given a choice of units, one of which was a 9 to 5 job but boring as hell and the other dealt with the most exciting cases but he'd be working as hard as at a major private sector law firm.  The salary was the same.

    In other words, some of those lawyers make less because they are doing less work and some make less even though they are doing more or less the same amount of work.

    Of course, the Republicans aren't interested in really ascertaining whether public employees are overpaid or not.

  •  Suggest rewording: Avoid "not" (0+ / 0-)
    Wisconsin, Ohio employees are underpaid

    It's as basic as defense -> offense.

    What do we want? Compromise! When do we want it? Now!

    by itswhatson on Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 10:18:48 AM PST

    •  Good point. (0+ / 0-)

      Also, posting signature numbers for the Recallable Eight might do more good than simply complain about the assault on unions in general.

      Play hardball with labor ---> lose your job might be a better motivator for Republican-American state senators than appeals to their conscience.

  •  Meet the Press sunday. Linsey Graham insists.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emal, 3goldens

    ...Gov. Walker was completely up front about his campaign promises. People accepted his platform. He won..that's all the proof needed.  
      Meet the Press transcript for Feb. 20, 2011

    SEN. GRAHAM:  David, if I could just add, this is a campaign flier I have--I don't know if you can see it--from the last election cycle where Wisconsin unions said,
    "If you elect this guy, Scott Walker, he's going to reform or limit collective bargaining." He was open about what he was going to do about contributions to pensions and retirement, and he told the people of Wisconsin, "I'm going to change collective bargaining because it is--impedes progress when it comes to education.  It's too hard to fire anybody, it is too complicated.  And I'm going to change that system." So, in a democracy, when you run on something, you do have an obligation to fulfill your promise.  He didn't take anybody by surprise.  He's doing exactly what he said
    .  There was a referendum on this issue, and the unions lost.  And the Democrats in Wisconsin should come back to Wisconsin to have votes.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not everyone believes you Graham.. or Walker:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Regents kept in the dark on UW-Madison split proposal

    Were Walker's plans  clear? ?

    ...Yet Walker's campaign website makes no mention of a large-scale diminishment of labor unions' ability to negotiate contracts.

    In fact, the site specifically mentions ways to alter, not eliminate, teacher contract negotiations.

    "Mediation and arbitration changes will also be needed to ensure that local economic factors are considered along with other common sense factors when arbitrating teacher contracts," according to the website.

    I don't believe either of these  fellas

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