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I wrote a diary yesterday announcing the arrival of a new research tool supplied by the transparency presidency called THE VAULT

I pulled out a couple of nuggets of things I found interesting and led it off with something I found mind blowing. There is a memo from head of the Washington DC field office Guy Hottel that states unequivocally that the Air Force had recovered 3 flying saucers.

A bizarre memo that appears to prove that aliens did land in New Mexico prior to 1950 has been published by the FBI.
The bureau has made thousands of files available in a new online resource called The Vault.
Among them is a memo to the director from Guy Hottel, the special agent in charge of the Washington field office in 1950.

In the memo, whose subject line is 'Flying Saucers', Agent Hottel reveals that an Air Force investigator had stated that 'three so-called flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico'.
The investigator gave the information to a special agent, he said. The FBI has censored both the agent and the investigator's identity.
Agent Hottel went on to write: 'They were described as being circular in shape with raised centers, approximately 50 feet in diameter.

Daily Mail link has the memo if you don't want to go to the official FBI site, an is the source of this blockquote

Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary back up, but let’s have some FUN today.  Why do you suppose the FBI released this document?  Is this document proof enough to begin the discussion?  Have you considered the possibilities this will open up in the foreign services?  If there are 100’s of civilizations out there they are going to need ambassadors.  Is this what Ronald Reagan was alluding to when he said this?

Originally posted to An Adept's Journey on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:12 AM PDT.

Also republished by The Week In UFO Phenomenon.


Are we alone as sentient beings in the universe?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Here's your proof (15+ / 0-)

    People call me rude. I wish we all were nude. I wish there was no black and white. I wish there were no rules.

    by kestrel9000 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:34:44 AM PDT

    •  Actually here is mine (8+ / 0-)

      I've been staring through telescopes since I was 9 years old, and I know what I saw this night tweren't no star.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:36:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What about laser light reflecting off low clouds? (5+ / 0-)
      •  possible light reflecting off an insect flying? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tiggers thotful spot, DvCM

        Can you estimate the distance to the object?, and is there anything that would conclusively rule out something such as a moth at about 100' with some kind of local light source?

        If it's not that, then.... hmm... interesting puzzle.  

        •  All I can tell you is i'm an amateur astronmer (6+ / 0-)

          I know the stars, I know where they rise and fall and how fast they travel in the night.  That object was hauling ass compared to a celestial object and was not biological in other words way too steady in movement.  Take a look at the video above from Sweden it was just like that.

          Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

          by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:18:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the video from Sweden... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rubyr, DvCM, niemann

            ... shows an object with multiple colors of light that appears to be rotating or oscillating.

            Did the object you saw show more than one color (that wasn't visible on your video)?  

            I don't know what to make of the Swedish example.  If that video was authenticated in terms of being taken by responsible observers, then to my mind it's almost certain it would end up in the "hard unknowns" category if nothing else due to the colors and shape of the object being so clear and distinct and not having a readily available explanation.

            Humans are notoriously bad at estimating distance to objects in the air without a background object as a frame of reference.  Since you do astronomy, you're in a much better position to estimate distance than the average observer.  

            There's a distance point past which an object moving that quickly in its frame of reference, would exceed the capabilities of known types of aircraft including rotary-wing aircraft.  I don't know enough to say what that distance would be, but you might, in which case that would provide the basis for calculating a lower limit on the object's possible speed.  

            There were sightings from the WW2 era that were backed by instruments, and that appeared to show objects moving at 1200 - 1600 miles per hour: far in excess of aircraft of that era, thus either meteorites or "hard unknowns" tending toward ET devices.  

            So let's take some wild speculation here:

            IF there was a paradigm shift such that the existence of ETs in our airspace was accepted in a truly mundane way, then we could start in on the business of categorizing the hard unknowns according to the behavior they demonstrated in flight.  Classifying objects of whatever kind into categories, is one of the first steps toward building up a taxonomy that can lead to viable hypotheses about the objects.  

            What I'm getting at is, we're collectively banging our heads on the wall of hard unknowns and coming up with nothing but the persistence of a puzzle.  But a paradigm shift could change all of that overnight, and lead to making real progress.  Seems to me that's a worthwhile exercise.  

            •  What I wonder is ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              IF there was a paradigm shift such that the existence of ETs in our airspace was accepted in a truly mundane way ...

              I wonder if there has already been a paradigm shift among government and military circles, and that such things are accepted there in a truly mundane way.

              That is, given such things as the FBI memo Adept2u posts;  the credible military reports, such as those from WW2;  the incidents -- reported by credible military officers -- of strange objects appearing over nuclear missile sites and apparently messing with the missiles and computers;  the recent press conference of military officers coming forward to tell of their experiences with such things ...

              If so, it can only be concluded that government people don't want the paradigm shift to spread to the general population, for whatever reasons of their own.

              •  there may well have been... (0+ / 0-)

                .... along the following lines:

                "These things gave us a few good scares but they never harmed us and never really exhibited overtly hostile behaviors.  They are probably harmless, and not a threat, and thus not much of an issue for the military to deal with.  Case closed, on to the next puzzle."

                And if you know anyone who's ever dealt with classified material before, you know that once they button up about something, they never mention it again.  For which reason it doesn't surprise me that the military has nothing much to say about any of this.  No cover-up needed, just routine "this is how you handle secrets."

                As for the general public:  I think the public basically assumes that the universe is infested with life, some of that life is intelligent, and so it's not surprising if occasionally they pass through here as part of their exploration of other star systems.  That seems to be a pretty common-sense approach to it that doesn't require getting all tangled up in debates of one kind or another.  

                •  That sounds about right to me ... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  ... from the (admittedly few) military classified-information-holder sort of people I've known.

                  God forbid they should think about it any more deeply, or have any more curiosity about it than that, though.

                  •  it works like this: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    When you get a clearance, at first you start out by having to restrain your natural curiosity about certain topics that are off-limits or "outside your compartment."  

                    Then you get the combination of positive social reinforcement for doing so, and negative social reinforcement when you make a mistake.   That combination is a powerful shaper of behavior.

                    Meanwhile, your natural curiosity has an unlimited number of other things it can go to work on, so it does.  And you get positive social reinforcement for doing that, so you do more of it.  

                    Curiosity or lack thereof doesn't determine whether someone can handle a clearance.  What determines that is their ability to exercise the appropriate self-discipline with respect to the matters for which they are cleared.  Everything else is the same as it is for anyone else.  

        •  I also own a device called a skyscout (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rubyr, DvCM

          It's made by celestron, and it basically is a personal planetarium.  It has a GPS and is basically a sighting scope that identifies stars and supplies their scientific data.  I also use it to point my telescope.  At any rate it didn't identify the object, and curiously since that night I haven't been able to get it to turn off its magneto icon.  (it's sensitive to wires and large hunks of metal normally)

          Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

          by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:13:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK, now we have an additional objective correlate. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Change in the behavior of an instrument in proximity to the time/place of the sighting.  I'm sure you know the literature of reported effects of unknown objects on electrical and electronic systems.  

            I take it that the magneto icon appears when the Skyscout has picked up some large source of electromagnetic energy that interferes with it getting a normal fix on the sky or some object in the sky?   Is that correct?

            In that case the persistence of the icon would tend to indicate that the entire device has been saturated or overloaded with some kind of electromagnetic radiation.  The most basic explanation is that there is some kind of meaningful association between the object you observed and an electromagnetic effect that damaged your device.  What the nature of that association is, remains to be seen.

            But if we did the hypothetical paradigm flip, and ruled out other options, then it would seem to be no big deal if that thing was from elsewhere.  We already know that there are plenty of elsewheres, just on the basis of statistical inference.

            •  You are correct (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DvCM, G2geek

              And I have reloaded it's software since the event, but as it still reliably points and identifies it's just an irritation.

              Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

              by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:38:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So the system behaves properly, but... (0+ / 0-)

                ... an icon that normally appears only in response to strong EM fields has remained on the screen anyway?  Yeah that's a pretty good puzzle.   Ordinarily it would be just a minor symptom of a spontaneous malfunction, but when occurring in proximity to a sighting, is reasonably attributed to some aspect of what was seen.  

                What we need to do in regard to a paradigm shift about these things, is start trying to figure out the physical principles behind them.   A NACA (NASA predecessor) engineer by the name of Hill took that approach and came up with the "tilt-to-maneuver" concept for rocket-propelled platforms, which almost made it to the Moon but was superseded by the Lunar Rover which wouldn't kick up as much dust as a rocket.  

    •  ........... (8+ / 0-)

      Hillary and Big Foot

      A few give much, a few give all, and most Americans give....NOTHING! ~~~ Support our troops - Bring them home

      by Hound Dog on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:30:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, no, a memo isn't actually proof of anything. (8+ / 0-)

    Other than maybe the fact that somebody wrote a memo.

    While it might actually have been written by an agent, and he may have known what he was talking about, and there may have been actual saucers, the memo isn't proof.

    As to why it was published?  Sounds like a great 'shiny object' to get people wasting their time on conspiracy theories rather than working on things that matter now.

    •  Do you believe the Head of the DC Field Office (7+ / 0-)

      would report erroneous information to J. Edgar Hoover?  I mean they describe the entitites clothes in the memo.

      Ok so it isn't proof, would you like to use the word evidence?  I'm cool with that, and if you can accept that the phenomenon is true that's way more than a bright shiny object that is a paradigm change.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:40:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Possibly. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        walkshills, DvCM

        I'm not really that up on the history of the agency, but wasn't that Hoover supposedly somewhat of a nutcase?  (As I said, I'm not up on the history, but he gets portrayed in popular culture as being odd and paranoid.)

        For all we know, it could have been a practical joke within the agency.

        I'm all for transparency, and I think virtually anything and everything done by our government and any agency thereof should automatically be declassified and placed in open public archives after some arbitrarily large number of years (50?) if it hasn't already been before that, with possible exceptions surrounded methods still in use that would expose current spy activities overseas.

        But I'm not sure there's a 'there' there.  Be neat if there was, though.

        •  Hoover wasn't a nutcase, he was a closet case. (10+ / 0-)

          He even made arrangements for his "friend and advisor" (read: partner) to be buried next to him in a graveyard that civilians normally wouldn't have access to.  

          Many of the distortions in Hoover's personality such as his obsessive secrecy and collection of intel about politicians, were basically driven by his need to protect himself from the virulent homophobia of that era.  Homophobia that drove computer science pioneer Alan Turing to commit suicide.

          Per TwoRoads' history of the post-WW2 UFO phenomena, the FBI was not particularly interested in this stuff.  However given the involvement of the military in investigating it, there's no question the FBI would have at least touched on the topic, even if they considered it of no further interest after that.  

          Keep in mind that UFO sightings were extraordinarily common in the post-WW2 era, they were being reported by trained observers, corroborated with instruments in a few cases, and speculated about by physicists and rocket scientists, and so on.  This was not "woo" back then, an era when public policy was quite a bit more grounded in scientific rationalism than it is today (with religious extremists dictating policy at all levels).  

          •  Thanks. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Adept2u, DvCM, niemann, G2geek

            My 'live and learn' moment for the day.  Always something new to learn on DK.

          •  BTW G2geek (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DvCM, G2geek

            There is a notice on two roads' site Saturday Night Uforia that it will debut on Saturday night, April 23, 2011. Now less than two weeks.

            This looks like a really good prelude and set-up up for him...unless he has much more power than we realize.


            The truth is we are tortured by the truth.

            by walkshills on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:22:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ! (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DvCM, niemann, G2geek

              You know so far I think I'm the only diarist to be able to put up UFO themed diaries that don't end up inhabited by cats and recipes.  It'll be fun to have him around again.  I came to Kos right after he left, but I've read all his things here.

              Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

              by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:29:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Actually, that's not on dkos. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DvCM, Adept2u, G2geek

                He's set up his own site. I really enjoyed his diaries as well.

                I've enjoyed your diaries and hope you keep it up.

                Made a response to Wendy at the bottom of the comments...looked at her credentials...impressive. Hope she joins in the conversation...good resource.

                The truth is we are tortured by the truth.

                by walkshills on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 03:11:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Way cool. (0+ / 0-)

              I look forward to it.  

              His treatment of this entire topic pulled it back from the realm of "wild & crazy stuff" to the realm of legitimate history with room for speculation, and even with implications for public policy today in dealing with hot science topics.

              It'll be interesting to see what he's been writing during his absence from around here.

      •  If that's the Corona crash (0+ / 0-)

        being talked about it would've been 1947 or so.
        The world knows that better as "Roswell"....

        LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

        by BlackSheep1 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:17:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There was also another crash site (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Thinking Fella, DvCM

          near Aztec, New Mexico, in March, 1948, in Hart Canyon off of Hwy. 550 where allegedly a disk was recovered with 16 bodies. Those specimens were described as 36-42 inches tall and all somewhat burned.

          This was near the time when there were mass sightings of what came to be called the Aztec Armada.

          In googling Hottel, I find this site Death by a 1000 Papercuts (DBKP) which has the FBI memo, links to the Aztec crash and other strange things like the recent Fresno Stick Figures that have popped up on security cameras. Seems to be their forte...

          I wondered about Hottel, if he was like Arnold, the guy who started all this in June, 1947, and who later sorta popped back into the ufo scene, as related by two roads collection of data. In heading the Washington FBI Field Office, Hottel seemed to be a person with credibility, but, as mentioned upstream, this could have been an inside joke.

          I only wonder why send him when there were other closer field offices. Maybe Hoover wanted the tightest link possible without other correspondence...this was an Air Force investigation with security links.

          As we've seen later, this could have been a giant hoax, one to perpetrate a general fear that would allow the military to stay powerful after WWII. Thus, such a memo would be a latter day reinforcement, one meant to be found.

          The truth is we are tortured by the truth.

          by walkshills on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:39:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Jeepers (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I only recently heard about the Aztec 'crash', and have been hiking around Durango & Aztec for a couple years...
            Shoot, I driven within 2-4 miles of Hart Canyon MANY times. I'll have to check it out...
            I did read that Aztec had a 'UFO' fest ~2 weeks ago, and the Aztec Librarian(?) was going to lead tours "of a UFO crash site, 12 miles N.E. of Aztec"...

            I will say this: Those aliens sure have fine taste in landing spots.

            I'll go this week and hike there, give ya a full report-if I'm still here on Earth and able to type after I wander into the 'zone'.

            "The better I know people, the more I like my dog."

            by Thinking Fella on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 02:18:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  it's hardly a conspiracy theory. (5+ / 0-)

      In fact these things tie in very closely with the history of the post-WW2 era, in particular US fears about the Soviets (which prompted the Air Force's UFO investigations: risk of Soviet aircraft that could penetrate our air defenses).  

      Aside from that, the 3% or so that are hard unknowns constitute a valid scientific puzzle.  Some of the work done on this stuff in the post-WW2 era turned into interesting discoveries about meteors, for example.  

      So if you want to dismiss this because it's not related to "things that matter now," then I suppose you object to the entire NASA budget and a lot of what the National Science Foundation already funds in a vast range of other areas.  Are you so sure you want to go there?

      •  By 'conspiracy theory' (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, erush1345, DvCM, niemann, G2geek

        I refer to the notion that the gov't conspires to hide the truth about UFO's from us, not whether or not UFO's exist.

        That seems like the very definition of a theory about a conspiracy to me.

        And I wouldn't defund NASA because space exploration spin-offs have led to most modern scientific advances.  That has nothing to do with whether or not extraterrestrials exist.

        And, btw, I say that as one who spent years running Seti@Home.

        I'm not 'anti-ET' or anything.  I'm just suggesting that people who are concerned more with earthly issues could very well be using this as a distraction from things people deal with in daily life.  Barring an alien invasion, or further direct contact the existence of aliens is of no particular interest to most of humanity.  They exist or they don't, and if they do, they only 'matter' to us insomuch as we have some future contact with them.

        •  no conspiracies needed. (0+ / 0-)

          Just the perfectly legitimate desire for secrecy by the military under the circumstances.  As follows:

          Let's say you're an Air Force General or the President.

          Now you come out and say "We think some of these are extraterrestrial space craft.  That means that other civilizations can successfully explore space, so we should do the same."  

          But, uh-oh, Stalin is listening, and what if those were really some kind of Soviet tech developed from captured WW2 tech, that enabled them to penetrate our air defenses?

          Now we've just handed Stalin the proverbial keys to the kingdom: he knows he can attack us at will.  Bad move.

          So instead, what if you come out and say "We think some of them are advanced Soviet aircraft"...?

          Double uh-oh, Stalin is also clinically paranoid, a fact that was well-known at the time.  Now Stalin gets the impression that the Americans are gearing up to attack him, so he decides it's better to just attack first and get it over with.  Using his newly-developed atomic bombs.

          So, from the US military point of view, damned if you do, and damned if you don't: better to just classify the whole thing Top Secret and then make the public think it's just a dumb joke.  Which has been highly successful over the years, thereby demonstrating the value of ridicule as a political tool, a fact not lost on Reagan with his election-winning comment "There you go again."

          No conspiracies needed: just the normal dynamics of dealing with a situation that could get nasty any other way.

          But let's take a walk down Speculation Row.

          What if, tomorrow, ETs landed in Central Park?, and the whole thing made national headlines, with 100% solid documentation, and Obama said "It appears that they are real after all"....?

          Think of the impact of that on religion, particularly on the various fundamentalisms that all claim that Earth is their deities' supreme creation with humanity at the pinnacle.

          Think of what happens after that.

          Whatever it is, it won't be what we thought it would be.  

          But one thing's for sure: it darn well would be of interest to the rest of humanity.  

  •  Inter-office prank? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mollyd, Dauphin, the fan man

    Sometimes we forget that humans work at these jobs.

  •  Far out! (10+ / 0-)

    Like Mulder, I want to believe. Except in the case of anal probes.

    No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up. -- Lily Tomlin

    by Colorado is the Shiznit on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:37:41 AM PDT

  •  Wait a minute. We're sentient????........nt (18+ / 0-)

    No one is outside the circle of the heart

    by kafkananda on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:40:13 AM PDT

  •  I tend to be skeptical of these things.... (10+ / 0-)

    ... and the alleged alien autopsy photos have for the most part been demonstrated to be fictitious.  

    The FBI routinely redacts agents' identities and sources' identities, from published documents, so there's nothing unusual about that.

    What brought the Roswell incident to the public was a press release by the Air Force that it had recovered ET artifacts.  When this generated a huge wave of chatter in the media and by the public, the Air Force issued another press release saying that the object was part of a weather balloon.  

    It's safe to say that, given the enormous interest by the public at the time, there were numerous pieces of information, some correct, some incorrect, some pure rumor or speculation, that were flying around not only the public but among various members of the military who may have been around the Roswell base when the event occurred.  Thus it's possible that what the FBI agent got was a mix of facts and rumors from someone who didn't have direct first-hand knowledge of the events and objects.

    However, I know from my own experience writing facts-in-evidence reports on a few occasions, that for any report to make it to the status of something that gets into an FBI file, it has to be documented and supported in a manner that at least pins down the source of the information sufficiently to enable analysts to parse out facts from rumors.   The degree to which the Bureau may have slipped into acting on rumors during the 1960s, has no bearing on the generalization about their insistence on documenting sources and so on.  

    So what are we to make of this?

    At minimum, that a credible source told an FBI agent that some kind of ET technology had been recovered.  

    That doesn't prove that the object was in fact ET technology.  

    But on the other hand, "so what?"  Today we basically take it for granted that the universe is infested with life.  We consider it almost certain that there are other intelligent civilizations out there in our galaxy.   We have space telescopes searching for planets that are candidates for life, and we have SETI searching for ET radio signals.  In the past week or two there has been the publication, in a credible journal, of yet another hypothesis about how to find evidence of ETs (disturbances in the natural distribution of dust and small objects in orbit around a star, as would occur in the event of space mining by an advanced civilization).  

    In all likelihood, the public reaction to a positive finding by SETI or some other evidence along those lines, would hardly be that of extreme surprise, but something more along the lines of "what took so long?" mixed with basic curiosity to know more.  

    The Roswell events have already had their impact on the culture, so they aren't going to substantially change our reaction if SETI found something, or if some other hard physical evidence turned up.  Those who believe that the Air Force found ET objects will say "told you so!" and those who believe the Air Force found parts of a weather balloon will say "today's evidence (SETI or whatever) is different."  

    And the mean nasty Republicans will still look for excuses to de-fund NASA.  

    •  This statement, while (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      quite reasoned,

      I know from my own experience writing facts-in-evidence reports on a few occasions, that for any report to make it to the status of something that gets into an FBI file, it has to be documented and supported in a manner that at least pins down the source of the information sufficiently to enable analysts to parse out facts from rumors.

      seems to be at odds with what we've heard about how the Fibbies assembled files in the past, and perhaps still do, on people they're watching. Various high-profile entertainers come to mind.

      There's a reason the random sweeping up of anything in the general vicinity is called "hoovering." Although it's a Britishism and not meant to be J. Edgar, it sure does fit.

      Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

      by Mnemosyne on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:23:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As I said.... (8+ / 0-)

        ... the 1960s were an anomaly, when the FBI went off on all kinds of wild goose chases, and did a bunch of stuff that has been to its discredit since that time.  

        However, the vast majority of its work was not in relation to political events, and followed purely routine specifications and standards.   Those standards have only tightened up over time; for example today they are ferociously careful about anything that remotely looks like entrapment.  

        But the main thing is, the UFO business would have been handled according to routine standards that had strong safeguards against rumors getting mistaken for actionable facts.  So it's parsimonious to believe that an agent did in fact talk with someone in the military who claimed that ET artifacts were recovered.

        The point where skepticism enters the picture is not whether someone in the military told someone at the FBI that ET artifacts had been recovered.  The potential for breakdown of accurate information into incorrect information at that stage is highly limited.  

        The point where skepticism enters the picture is with regard to degree and quality of knowledge on the part of the person who spoke with the FBI.  The issue here is whether they were relaying first-hand information, second-hand but verifiably truthful information, or rumor, or some combination.  The potential for breakdown of accurate information into incorrect information is much higher at that point.  

        Or to simplify it by analogy:  

        We read a police report of a crime.  The report says the officer took a statement from a witness, to the effect that the robber drove a blue getaway car.  

        The place where a defense attorney will find possible fault here is not with the issue of whether the witness said such-and-such to the police.

        Instead the defense attorney will question whether the witness saw the getaway car first-hand or merely relayed what someone else who was there told them, or was merely guessing or relaying a rumor.   That's the point at which inaccuracy is most likely to get into the picture.  

        Does this make sense?

        •  oh yeah, makes (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u, DvCM, niemann, G2geek

          lots of sense. I've no doubt that now information put into an FBI file is examined and vetted pretty closely.

          And the point about whether or not the person reporting the information observed accurately is well taken. But that also applies to the agents, I think.

          One of the reasons it's so very difficult to do accurate reporting is that we all, however good our intentions, filter incoming information through our own sets of filters. The trick is to be aware that you have the filters, and I'm afraid a whole lotta people in official capacities aren't that self-aware.

          In any event, I think we're agreed that the information-gathering now is more controlled and possibly reliable than in the past, although we aren't really going to know until years from now, if then, how truly widespread the nets were.

          And, honestly, a part of me really wants to believe in little green men landing in the New Mexico desert. It's creative and outside-the-box thinking, and creativity is taking a big beating in our present society.

          Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

          by Mnemosyne on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:05:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  they weren't green, they were gray. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Haven't you ever heard of the Grays?  Mythical race of ETs said to have gray complexions, stand about 4' tall, and communicate mind-to-mind rather than with spoken words.  (IMHO their lineage is that of archetypal beings from the human collective unconscious, in much the same manner as angels.)

            Anyway, there's yet another source of information breakdown I forgot to mention:

            Absence of appropriate technical expertise.

            How many people in the FBI at that time were, or even today are, trained in what amounts quite literally to rocket science?   This is a serious problem for law enforcement today, in regard to cybercrime: there is very specific expertise needed, that requires an education that usually leads to private sector jobs.

            So it's entirely possible that someone from the Air Force, familiar with then-modern military aircraft, but not familiar with meteorological balloons, rockets, other UFO sightings, or any of that, could have made mistakes in describing what he saw.  And the FBI agent could have made mistakes in rendering that description into a report.  

            Realistically we'll never know for sure.  If the Roswell object really was a met balloon, some people will never believe it.  If the object really was an ET space craft, some people will never believe it.  Whatever evidence is ever released about that issue will be greeted with well-reasoned skepticism from one side or another.

            I think the less-publicized military reports of sightings with objective correlates are far more interesting in terms of evidence of possible ET space tech.  And in any case I'll eagerly wait to see what SETI and similar research projects come up with.  

            •  but . . . but the little green (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              people are so much more visually attractive. Gray is so boring.

              Although your description of their communication sounds a lot like ET.

              I 'spect there is, out there somewhere, sentient life, although it may not look like what we, or Hollywood, could anticipate. And if there is sentient life out there, they're probably laughing themselves silly over the rank stupidity of behavior patterns exhibited by homo sapiens.

              Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

              by Mnemosyne on Mon Apr 11, 2011 at 10:11:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  i can't wait to see GOP try out their immigration (12+ / 0-)

    policy of hate on new arrivals!

    Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:46:39 AM PDT

    •  The GOP tries that shit (0+ / 0-)

      and the aliens will set their phasers from stun to a more, shall we say, terminating setting.

      If the aliens have the technology to get here, Steve King and Tom Tancredo are fucking toast if they try to do anything about it.


      by Uncle Chigurh on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:53:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Did this doc come from the Waukesha county clerk? (19+ / 0-)

    It's been hidden all these years along with 14,000 votes.

  •  since its GOP's nature to suckup to power (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u, walkshills, Uncle Chigurh

    At last we understand now why they want to destroy the human economy.

    fact does not require fiction for balance (proudly a DFH)

    by mollyd on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:56:46 AM PDT

  •  What has 3 balls and comes from outer space? (12+ / 0-)

    E.T., the Extra Testicle.


    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:57:59 AM PDT

  •  ferengi visit earth (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u, PeterHug, DvCM

    fact does not require fiction for balance (proudly a DFH)

    by mollyd on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:14:21 AM PDT

  •  Hey, it's a bureaucratic organisation. (0+ / 0-)

    Who's to say FBI agents don't troll their superiors to cut them down to size? Oh, and the general public, too.

    Iuris praecepta sunt haec: Honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. - Ulpian, Digestae 1, 3

    by Dauphin on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:21:08 AM PDT

    •  It was a different world in 1950 (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dem Beans, G2geek, walkshills, erush1345, DvCM

      I'm not sure the troll had been invented, and I'm more than confident J. Edgar Hoover would have been a poor target.  If you spend any time in the vault and over the last couple of days I sure have you'll see they actually stamp bogus on what they think is in that time frame.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:24:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Clinton on Roswell (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u, DvCM

    In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

    by Circle on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:27:36 AM PDT

    •  Oh my God! It's proof that the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Scientologists are right.

      Well, okay.  Scientologists are a lot like The Banksters -- should be a fairly smooth transition to the One World Government.

      And don't even mention Kabbalah . . .

      That's understandable when I realize that I can't feel my body.

      by prodigal on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:34:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  whatever (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I found Clinton's comments interesting. They counter the FBI memo for the most part, but leave me with the question, Why didn't he find that memo if he looked? What's the game? Why is it there now, if it wasn't in 2005? He could be lying, I suppose, but it doesn't seem that he is. Anyway... if we're going to do anything but throw pie, it seems a legitimate contribution to the conversation... that is, if the conversation is worth having...

        In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

        by Circle on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:49:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think Bill Clinton would lie (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zett, walkshills

          Look you right in the face and prevaricate, but then again I was around and eyes open when he did.  

          Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

          by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 09:55:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            You're probably right about Clinton. When he wants to lie, he knows exactly how to pull it off. He's an expert. I just don't know what to think about his behavior or his motivation around this issue. Why would he acknowledge trying to find out about Roswell and then lie about there being nothing to see? Doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, here's another interesting tidbit: last fall seven retired Air Force men held a press conference in DC and claimed that they encountered UFO activity at nuclear weapons sites in the 60s. Here's the link.

            In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

            by Circle on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:34:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Remember this? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:


              That went right down the memory hole.


              Now me I think they are going for a quiet disclosure.  They are letting the world know there are millions of exo planets, discovering new forces of nature, all within the last 6 months, and kind of slowly but surely drawing back the veil.

              Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

              by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:45:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Adept2u, DvCM

                for being brazen enough to bring this up over and over...

                In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

                by Circle on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:45:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  2nd Thanks (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DvCM, niemann, Adept2u

                I just finished listening to the almost 2 hour press conference of the UFO Disclosure Project, something I had never seen and was totally unaware of. Really interesting, fills in a lot of missing pieces for me. So thanks for posting it and directing me to it here.

                In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

                by Circle on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 01:42:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  It amazes me that things like these ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                ... that have such huge implications for our whole understanding of reality, can be brought forward with such sober credibility ...

                ... only to be greeted with an "Oh, that's interesting" response, whereafter the human race goes back to watching Dancing With The Stars.  I honestly think the implications are so staggering that most people can't -- or don't want to -- think about them too much;  too threatening to habitual life and conceptual patterns.

  •  How about the FBI was clueless what the Army (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    teresab, erush1345

    was up to? With their super duper top secret dont even tell your Mom spy weather balloons.

  •  I've written three books on UFO history, including (7+ / 0-)

    Project Blue Book. I also did the video history with Walter Haut, who was the PIO at Roswell AB and released the memo that a UFO had crashed near Roswell. I have him on video that he saw the disc and a body. I have also preserved over 3500 hours of historical audio dealing with UFOs that reside in the Ohio State University libraries.

    Are UFOs real? Absolutely. Are we alone in the universe? Absolutely not.

    Google: Wendy Connors if you want my credentials.

    Hope has a hole in it when Republicans come, bringing shackles and sorrow; branding their greed on the backs of the poor. - W. A. Connors

    by Wendys Wink on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:09:37 AM PDT

    •  (((Wendy))) (6+ / 0-)

      When all of this tumbles out you should get some T-shirts printed up that say something like "call me crazy now"  Mine is going to be "my blood sugar is normal ma!"

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:47:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What's the most compelling piece of evidence (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wendys Wink, niemann

      you've come across through your research?

      “Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”, Theodore Roosevelt

      by the fan man on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:58:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Listening to over 5000 hours of taped interviews (7+ / 0-)

        of normal, everyday people talking about what they have seen, plus the hundreds of CIA, FBI, DIA, etc. personnel describe their encounters, off the record. You can't do something like that and not come to the conclusion they were all woo-woo's. Plus, I once had my own close encounter, that brought reality to my own mind.

        This phenomena is beyond our understanding, but not beyond our ability to see the reality of it.

        Hope has a hole in it when Republicans come, bringing shackles and sorrow; branding their greed on the backs of the poor. - W. A. Connors

        by Wendys Wink on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:13:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Change my comment to read: (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nancat357, the fan man, rubyr, niemann

          "You can't do something like that and not come to the conclusion they were NOT woo-woo's." I meant to type it that way.

          Hope has a hole in it when Republicans come, bringing shackles and sorrow; branding their greed on the backs of the poor. - W. A. Connors

          by Wendys Wink on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:15:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Think it's real in the sense of something physical (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Wendys Wink, niemann

            objectively real, or something that we don't have a mental framework for, so we say aliens and flying machines, given our technological age? Seems the phenomenon changes over the years. Large cigar shaped vehicles in the 1800s, saucers after the first 40's report of objects "skipping like saucers" in the sky. Seems like we have a very active hand in shaping the experience.

            “Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”, Theodore Roosevelt

            by the fan man on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:38:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I really wonder about this ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Adept2u, the fan man

              Having worked as a therapist with some people who have had alien contact experiences -- whatever those are -- (and yes, as Wendy says, they did strike me as very normal people) -- and having studied a lot in the matter of consciousness and related "extraordinary experiences", alien and UFO experiences strike me as very "otherworldly" and consciousness-based.  

              That is, something in-between, with an objective, separate reality ... but one that is accessed through quite subjective means.  The idea of literal metallic objects, with little humanoid people who are literally traveling across light years of space from another planet, just seems ridiculous to me.  But then, there are credible people who say they've seen such things.  

              I don't know how to reconcile the two things.

              •  I think you're running down the right trail (0+ / 0-)

                Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

                by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 08:21:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'll look at these later, when I have more time .. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Adept2u, the fan man

                  ... and thanks for posting.

                  I have been intrigued with Dr. John Mack's work with alien abductees, and am saddened at how his reputation was tainted by vicious, simplistic misrepresentations of his work.  

                  Mack never claimed that there were literal, physical aliens coming to earth, and literally, physically interacting with humans.  He pretty much just said the phenomenon is real (in that it is widespread and consistent), the experiencers are not crazy, they show all the signs of genuine traumatic experience, and he didn't know what to make of it.  

                  (He actually leaned toward a non-literal, consciousness-based explanation, which you would never know from reading his critics.)

                  •  Read "Angels and Aliens", runs through (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    the spectrum of thoughts on what these experiences mean, from the simple (hallucination) to more exotic (encounter with the unknowable). One chapter compares alien "probing" to shaman encounters with  beings that inflict invasive procedures.

                    “Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”, Theodore Roosevelt

                    by the fan man on Mon Apr 11, 2011 at 05:25:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thanks for the referral. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      the fan man

                      It sounds good.  Having studied shamanism to some degree, I tend toward that view -- that alien experiences are related to past historical "fairy" experiences/abductions, the shamanistic Otherworld, and so on.  

                      In fact, when some UFO/alien researchers have talked about aliens and UFO experiences with shamans in Africa and other cultures, the shamans tend to say things like, "Oh, yeah, those little guys.  We've known all about them for years."

                      That's what makes it hard for me to reconcile that with the evidence -- as presented above -- that real physical UFO remains and bodies have been found;  unless the otherworldy beings can, in some case, become so concrete that they really can crash and die in our reality.

                      •  Another great work in this vein is (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        Passport to Magonia: On UFOs, Folklore, and Parallel Worlds by Jacques Vallee (the study for the character played by François Truffaut in Close Encounters).

                        From an Amazon review:

                        Researcher Jacques Vallee has done an excellent job synthesizing the various reports through the ages of our contact with otherworldly entities. He especially emphasizes the fairy lore of the Celtic region, as this is relatively modern and also well-documented.

                        Vallee points out that many of the chief characteristics of contact with fairies is coincidental of modern accounts of contact with UFOnauts. He surmises that these accounts are cultural-specific descriptions of a phenomenon that has been with us since time immemorial. It is probable that everything from demons, incubi, and jinns are one and the same as the aliens which now captivate our global attention.

                        Interestingly, the entities have consistently been described as possessing technology just beyond the means of whichever society is experiencing the contact. Today, the entities appear in antigravity spacecraft, just as in the Bible they steered luminous chariots, and in the great airship sighting wave of 1897, they seemed to be manning turbine-driven zeppelins. The one constant throughout the ages has been the entities proclivity to tinker with the genetics of mankind. Vallee offers no answers to this strange phenomenon, but only wishes to point out that it did not originate in modern times.

                        “Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”, Theodore Roosevelt

                        by the fan man on Mon Apr 11, 2011 at 11:38:15 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  That's a very interesting history, Wendy. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      At one time there was a weekly diary called Saturday Night Uforia in which a member named two roads related areas of UFO history with many documents and photos.

      There was no perspective or advocacy for whether they were real or not, but more of here-is-the-evidence-accrued and drew people with interesting expertise in the comments. So, it became a mini course in document analysis of the field and of the photo and video evidence. It was a fun diary for Saturday night. In a comment in Adept2U's previous diary I have a link to one of two roads' diaries which will lead to them all. (click on his name there)

      Two roads' circumstances became poorly and he was unable to continue but said he would start it again one day. He created a site called Saturday Night Uforia and there's a notice now up that he will begin again on April 23, less than two weeks away. I do hope his life situation have stabilized enough that he can continue on a regular basis. In addition to the documents and accrued history, there is now a certain mythology that has become culture, always worth mining for its coloration and impact within current events.

      I would invite you, with your wide background and expertise, to visit it. Don't know what kind of group will find it but I hope it holds to the basic skepticism and yet investigative and scientific sensibility that took part in the diaries here. G2geek (above in the comments) was often there.

      I'm moving by next weekend, so I don't know if I will be setup yet by the 23rd. I run a history museum, so I have an interest in niche cultural event histories and how they relate to our overall history.

      In light of the Hottel memo, you might consider a diary of your own observations and relevant history.

      The truth is we are tortured by the truth.

      by walkshills on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:54:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ahem (0+ / 0-)

    Antemedius | Liberally Critical Thinking

    by Edger on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:28:03 AM PDT

  •  Alien bodies are clearly fake (0+ / 0-)

    If you know anything at all about evolutionary biology, you'd know that there's simply no chance of a real alien looking anything near humanoid.  Zip, Nada, Zero.

    That doesn't mean there aren't aliens, but the ones shown, that look vaguely humanoid, absolutely aren't them.

    •  Huh? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Andhakari, Uncle Chigurh, OHdog, DvCM

      I do know something about evolutionary biology, and what about it precludes a humanoid extra terrestrial.  Also what does your biology say about extra dimensional beings.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:51:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do they play 11 demensional chess? Maybe (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Obama really is an alien?!

        “Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”, Theodore Roosevelt

        by the fan man on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 10:59:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  statistically impossible (0+ / 0-)

        There is simply far too much randomness in our evolutionary path to produce nearly the same results starting on an entirely different planet. It's like flipping a quarter twenty million times and coming up with the binary version of Hamlet.  Twice in a row. With only minor spelling differences between the two.

        Why 4 limbs and not 6? Why five fingers and not tentacles? Why 2 eyes and not 3?  Why have a bone structure that is nearly identical to all mammals, rather than following the pattern set by, say, lobsters? Surely, somewhere in the billions of random events that comprise the evolution of any particular species, the aliens would have to have followed a path different than our own.

        The pictures of aliens all look exactly like what a naive person would draw, not what an actual biologist would come up with. They're textbook Star Trek aliens: all played by a human in a rubber suit, or a bit of extra makeup.  Simply absurd.

        Now, if you want to suggest that these are actually humans who have evolved for an extra million years, and then time traveled back to the present, then that's vaguely possible. But there's no chance that they are the product of evolution on some planet entirely disconnected from our own.

      •  convergent evolution (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OHdog, Adept2u

        is quite possible. The wolf and the marsupial wolf, not close at all. Ditto the mouse and the marsupial mouse.

        So appearance by being bipedal, with a high degree of cephalization etc. is quite possible. Interbreeding with a creature that may have superficially similar appearance is what evolutionary biology rules out. We would have more in common with dolphin that evolved on our own planet than something that looks like us but evolved elsewhere.

        fact does not require fiction for balance (proudly a DFH)

        by mollyd on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 01:46:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Adept2, please don't take offense. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    this is jumping the shark. If you want to say there are Aliens on other worlds, somewhere out there, i'll go there with ya. I can't see Aliens flying around here other to than make sure we still can't fly to their home, sorry.

    "Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine

    by blueoregon on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 11:32:30 AM PDT

    •  None taken (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I did start this diary out with a tip jar that spoke of the expanding mind.  I don't put anything out there as truth or fiction dependent on how I see it, unless of course it is UFO phenomenon which I have seen with my own eyes.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:15:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  untrained observers (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoregon, Adept2u

        I've stood next to a person who was seeing a UFO. She insisted that the light on the horizon was moving.  I, on the other hand, knew it was Jupiter.  

        It was shortly after sunset, and only the brightest objects were visible, so there was no background to verify motion against. And with no background reference points, small random eye motions will make a point of light appear to move. But I'm an amateur astronomer, and knew where Jupiter was supposed to be, and this was it.

        And yes,  within a couple minutes I proved, beyond all possible doubt, that this was indeed Jupiter we were both looking at, by using a telescope. We could see dual cloud bands crossing it's surface, and the only tracking needed was to accommodate the rotation of the earth.

        It was a UFO only to the person who didn't know what she was looking at. To a trained eye, it was identified the instant it was observed, and entirely mundane.

        •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rubyr, Mr Robert

          However my level of training is not at issue and although I know it is very tempting to try and supply explanation and impose ones own frame on situations occasionally you run across people who do not require or desire it.

          Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

          by Adept2u on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 12:32:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Adept...I enjoyed your diary! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Other worlds, other living beings, other things...yep.

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Sun Apr 10, 2011 at 01:52:56 PM PDT

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