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Welcome to Team Shalom Fry'd Daze. Fry'd Daze is a long running series dedicated to dialogue in the Middle East. Currently we are in our second year. These diaries are not intended to be a flame forum, but rather something where community members can meet and exchange ideas about I/P and/or issues that concern the Middle East.

Generally, these diaries take the form of four to five news articles and short commentary selected by the diarist. These stories however, are just a platform to get discussion going. The diaries from now on will publish under the banner of the  Team Shalom

What is Team Shalom:

"Team Shalom is Team Peace. We are a group of Kossacks supporting a fair, pragmatic, and realistic resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through the two-state solution. We support Israel's continued existence as a Jewish and democratic state, with it existing alongside Palestine, a Palestinian and democratic state, as friends and neighbors. We believe this is the only way forward and the only way to achieve an enduring peace. This is the view endorsed by the overwhelming majority of the world's nations, including the Quartet, which consists of the United States, Russia, the European Union, and the United Nations."

So please participate. The only thing we ask is that you keep comments respectful, reality based and please no use of Anti-Semetic or Anti-Arab memes. Enjoy!

Lots of news today but the big story in Israel and Palestine is the upcoming Nakba Day on May 15th.

Haaretz, and Ynet,  are reporting clashes between the IDF and Palestinians protesting on the West Bank after peaceful Friday Prayers

Israel Defense Force soldiers and Palestinians clashed on Friday throughout the West Bank, days before planned demonstrations to commemorate the Nakba.

Mild clashes between the IDF and Palestinians erupted in Jerusalem on Friday morning, in Silwan, Isawiya and in the Old City. Israel police forces have arrested 11 protesters.

However, Palestinian officials have reported one wounded from live fire in Ras al-Amud, an East Jerusalem neighborhood and several others have been reported wounded by rubber bullets and tear gas, mainly in Silwan.

According to Maan News a group of activists trying to start a Third Intifada are trying to rally Palestinians to march on Israeli Checkpoints en masse and refugees from 1948 to return to the homes they fled. They are also setting up demonstrations in other countries as well.

Activists behind a website called "The Third Intifada" have also called for a new uprising, which would see thousands of Palestinians march towards Israeli checkpoints, and refugees towards homes from which they fled or were forced out of when Israel was created in 1948.

Palestinian refugees are also expected to stage rallies and demonstrations in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria.

Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld confirmed that some restrictions would be in force during the Friday prayers but he was not immediately able to give details.

Israel on Tuesday celebrated the 63rd anniversary of its creation, marking the date according to the Hebrew calendar.

Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and Israel and abroad, who mourn the day as the "Nakba" or "catastrophe," are to stage three days of rallies and protests starting on Friday.

But Aharonovitch told the radio he believed the anniversary would pass quietly, and Israeli news website Ynet quoted him as saying he had instructed the security forces "to exercise restraint and avoid using force."

As to demonstrations in other countries... There have been demonstrations in Egypt and Jordan where protestors have called for an end to the Peace Treaty

In Jordan, protesters chanted, "The people want to liberate Palestine."

They also shouted, "The people want to end Wadi Araba," a reference to Jordan's 1994 peace treaty with Israel.

The slogans also reflected changes in the political climate, including the ousting of long-term leaders in Tunisia and Egypt and efforts by the Palestinians to get the United Nations to recognize their independence. "1948 and 1967 are the catastrophes, but 2011 is the Revolution of the Return," some of the protesters' signs read.

"We want to tell the world that Palestine and its refugees are not to be forgotten," said 21-year-old dentistry student Omar Hassan, whose family hails from Bethlehem in the West Bank. "It's time the world recognizes that the Palestinian case has to be solved once and for all."

In Egypt, a protest pushed on Facebook is asking people to march on the borders but, so far the ruling Military Council has not supported this and while the Muslim Brotherhood supports the Friday demonstrations, they too do not support the march to the border as of now.

As Ynet reports:

On Thursday, Egyptian authorities urged citizens not to take part in a solidarity march with the Palestinians Sunday to the Rafah border. A statement issued by authorities called on activists to "avoid implications that may stem from such march."

In other News: American Peace Negotiator George Mitchell is resigning today

U.S. Middle East peace envoy George Mitchell, who has led the Obama administration's efforts to restart direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, plans to resign on Friday, a U.S. official said.

Mitchell's departure comes ahead of U.S. President Barack Obama's expected speech laying out his new Middle East strategy and a visit to the White House by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on May 20.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Mitchell's resignation would be announced by the White House later on Friday. There are no imminent plans
to announce a replacement for Mitchell, the officials said, although his staff
is expected to remain in place at least temporarily.

The Associated Pressis reporting

Since his appointment on Obama's second full day in office in January 2009, Mitchell, 77, had spent much of his time shuttling between the Israelis, Palestinians and friendly Arab states in a bid to restart long-stalled peace talks that would create an independent Palestinian state. But in recent months, particularly after the upheaval in Arab countries that ousted longtime U.S. ally and key peace partner Hosni Mubarak from power in Egypt, his activity had slowed markedly.

Nimer Hamad, a senior adviser to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, told the AP that Mitchell's job had been made more difficult by Israeli intransigence.

"Mitchell hasn't been in the region in three months," Hamad said. "Whether he resigns or not, it's clear that Mitchell wasn't in the region because he didn't see the possibility of being a mediator between two sides where one of them is not responsive."

Israeli officials declined to comment until the official announcement is made.

I want to end the diary on a positive note for Peace this week.

Jewish and Muslim leaders join forces to combat xenophobia

80 leading Jewish and Muslim leaders from across Ukraine and Russia met in Kiev
on Thursday May 12, pledging to work together to fight a rising cascade of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism in the two countries.

In the first-ever “Muslims and Jews United Against Hatred and Extremism" conference held in the Ukrainian capital, community leaders from both countries heard chilling accounts of discrimination and abuse.

Conference participants spoke of the beating and harassment of Muslims and Jews in the two former Soviet republics, desecration of Muslim and Jewish cemeteries and bombings as well as other attacks on communal institutions of the two faiths.

The leaders pledged to work together to combat forces of extremism and hate and to put pressure on their local authorities to take a more assertive stand in fighting perpetrators of Islamophobic and anti-Semitic attacks.

This is truly hopeful news and these kinds of meetings and get togethers are what leads to Peace between people.

Shabbat Shalom, Peace, Salam, and please enjoy the diary.

Originally posted to volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 10:19 AM PDT.

Also republished by Team Shalom.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The next Middle East envoy... (9+ / 0-)

    ...needs to be young. Say, 25. Wisdom and experience and patience are obviously important for this post, and what 25-year-old has all those in abundance? But, on the other hand, s/he might live to see results.

    Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Fri May 13, 2011 at 10:23:05 AM PDT

  •  Lesson is cooperation easier outside region (8+ / 0-)

    It seems that it's much easier for Jews and Muslims to work together when they're both threatened minorities in far-off lands.

    Very depressing and disturbing news all-around. Not that anyone should be surprised -- we were well warned that the Arab Spring would produce more open hostility to Israel. Hopefully. we can get past this spasm. It cannot inspire confidence in Israelis who are on the fence about the idea of trading land, along with the security it brings, for peace.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Fri May 13, 2011 at 10:31:45 AM PDT

  •  It looks like Netanyahu will (8+ / 0-)

    address Congress after he meets with the president next week. And Helen Thomas will apparently crawl out from under her rock to speak while he's in town. Should be a lovely week in our nations capital.

    I'm gay and I'm pissed. I'm not giving up, I'm not giving in, I'm not backing down, and I'm not going away. I'm one of the Angry Gays. Deal with it.

    by psychodrew on Fri May 13, 2011 at 10:41:53 AM PDT

  •  Wael Ghonim (0+ / 0-)

    who was the driving force behind the Egyptian uprising commented on simultaneous pro-unity and pro-Palestinian demonstrations in Tahrir Square today.

    I'm an Egyptian & I support #Palestine
  •  It's been a 'lovely' week generally (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht, poco

    The two articles in Ha'aretz about the 140,000 Palestinians who had their citizenship/residency cancelled for absences from the area for eduction and the like here  and here following the first respecting governmental acts long after the chaos of 1948 definitely did not make my sitting-at-my-computer day and will of necessity complicate what now seems to be the core issue of who gets to come back to a single small area on a priority basis. I so wish whoever released this had not done so on this already difficult enough week.

  •  In the Egyptian and Jordanian... (3+ / 0-)

    demonstrations, if one uses google translate, the Arabic media's version of the same protests reveals that in Jordan the protesters chanted:

    "Khaybar Khaybar Jews, Muhammad's Army has begun to return. Soul and blood we sacrifice ourselves for Iavelstin. To Jerusalem we go Shahdad millions. No Embassy of the entity over thy land, O Amman" People want to return to Palestine "..".

    http://www.ammonnews.net/...

    Khaybar is a reference to Mohammed's slaughter of dozens Jews in that town in that town.

    In Egypt the protesters were chanting Khaybar also, and:

    "The house of Israel is on fire" and "The first demand of the masses is to burn the embassy and kill the ambassador."

    http://www.algareda.com/...

    The AP story, as for most of the media, sticks to the singular meme that the protests are just political without a religious element.  

    Why can't there be unity for Palestinian rights without calling for genocide of Jews?

    Why are such facts openly expressed in Arab media, but we must rely on google translate to get the full story?  

    •  Love the Quote Mining (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brecht, poco

      You turned a comma into a period and chopped off the key final phrase.

      After dawn prayers began numbers coming in are plentiful on the ground and shouted slogans such as "The house of Israel is on fire "and" Khyber Khyber, Jews, Mohammed's Army will be back, "and" the first demand of the masses burn embassies, kill Ambassador, "a chant that has raised the ire of many of the demonstrators.

      Your final question is a good one particularly in light of the quote mining we hear in the media and sadly on DK, too.

      Why are such facts openly expressed in Arab media, but we must rely on google translate to get the full story?

      Also, here's a video of IDF in Silwan today, where seventeen-year-old Morad Ayyash from the el-Amud neighborhod was shot in the stomach with live fire. He was rushed to the Muqassed hospital where he needed eight doses of blood. His condition is described as serious. To think I walked those streets a month ago. Much safer for American tourists.

      But Aharonovitch told the radio he believed the anniversary would pass quietly, and Israeli news website Ynet quoted him as saying he had instructed the security forces "to exercise restraint and avoid using force."

      Yeah, right.

      •  So why are these chants... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TakeMeOutOfMyMissouri

        made in the first place?  Are you saying they were not?  Are they pro-Palestinian?  Should they have been reported by the AP in the context of these demonstrations?  Do you really believe they are an anomaly?

        •  It's the Islamists being left behind (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Brecht, poco, isabelle hayes

          See my diaries from early this year on the church bombings in Alexandria. Pro-Mubarek elements are trying to agitate fear and retribution. Islamists tried to hijack the revolutions against the Christians but the overwhelming majority of Egyptian people blocked them.

          The Coptic Christians didn't buy into that crap. Same with the Christian Palestinians that I talked with on my trip to Israel last month. They told me that they were leaving not because of the Muslims with whom they lived in peace for centuries but rather Israeli occupation. Not all the Christians are leaving deliberately, though. They send their children to American and European universities and the Israelis block them from returning to their home.

          Despite all the fear of change the upcoming White Intifada is the best hope for Jews to live in peace in their homeland. It will take courage just as it's requiring courage for the Coptic Christians who are not striking back when their churches are bombed by Muslim extremists. The answer to the problem is not having a homogenous Jewish nation any more is the answer here is to have a homogenous Christian nation. Rather, the answer is to promote democracies that protect the rights of all religious minorities whoever they are. That's behind the hopes of the young people in the region who are eschewing the violence (but not the resistance to tyranny) of their elders.

          •  This is a false dichotomy (4+ / 0-)
            The answer to the problem is not having a homogenous Jewish nation any more is the answer here is to have a homogenous Christian nation.

            There are indeed some who want to have a homogenous Israel but, to say that one wants Israel to be the Nation State and National Homeland of the Jewish People is quite different than demanding an ethnically pure or homogenous state.

            I, for instance, do favor Israel remaining a Jewish State AS WELL AS a Democratic State with protections as well as equal civil rights for it's minority population. I favor the same things for a Palestinian State, that it will be first and foremost Palestinian but that it will afford equal civil rights and protections to the Jewish people that decide to remain.

            Anyway, no one here and the majority of people in Israel are not talking in the dichotomous terms you use.

            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 01:26:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  With the Resignation of the Envoy TSS Died Today (0+ / 0-)

              Now the options are either:

              1. Permanent military occupation
              2. A single secular state that is a homeland for both Jews and Palestinians. Jews say that Arabs live fine in Israel why not have the concept writ large?

              I traveled in Area C. Palestine is Swiss cheese. I also saw no place where the Jews and Palestinians lived together even in Israel let alone the West Bank. (I did see many places where Muslims and Christians lived together, however.) So, I stand with my homogenous statement.  It may not be what Israelis or Team Shalom wants but it does accurately describe the facts on the ground.

              Getting back to the death of TSS, even if we posited a good will that doesn't exist, you cannot find a boundary that doesn't strand a significant number of Arabs or Jews. Now that everything is all mixed together, embrace it rather than fight it. When I passed through the prison err separation wall I literally shuddered.

              It is not possible to have both a Jewish and democratic state with peace. Choices have to be made.

              •  Really, just because George Mitchell resigned the (4+ / 0-)

                TSS is dead? Seriously? I mean do you honestly believe that?

                That is just a silly statement.

                It is not possible to have both a Jewish and democratic state with peace. Choices have to be made.

                ummm yeah... not really.

                I am glad you traveled there, that is good. I lived there and had a very different experience.

                But all that aside.

                The big question your post creates is: Are you stating in that comment, that should Israel decide that it wants to continue to exist as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people that you think the Palestinians are incapable or unwilling to make Peace? If so, what do you base that on?

                For the record, if that is the case, I strongly disagree with you. I think Israel can make peace with the Palestinians in a manner that would be acceptable (but not ideal) to both parties and I think at the end of the day both parties will be willing.

                Getting back to the death of TSS, even if we posited a good will that doesn't exist, you cannot find a boundary that doesn't strand a significant number of Arabs or Jews.

                Errrr, again I am going to have to disagree with you since you are:
                A. framing this question in dichotomous terms
                B. Not making any sense

                There are a number of proposals from Taba to the Geneva Instutue, to the PPI, to the final offering of Ehud Olmert and the Kadima Government that don't "strand" (not a word I would use) on the other side of a border.

                If none of those are acceptable then I guess then you won't find peace. Pretty simple really.

                BTW, how do you propose to get the 5.8 million Jews that live in Israel to decide they want to give up their homeland? No one there outside of several dozen activists want that - so how are you going to convince the other 5,799,012 people (give or take) to not fight? Oh yeah and figure on help and volunteers from the diaspora to help as well (and yes, I would be one)

                Just curious.

                DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 02:25:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  When you want Israel... (4+ / 0-)

                  ....to cease to exist in any meaningful form, any news is proof of the death of the two state solution.

                •  I just don't see how you slice it (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm aware of the Kadima proposals and the like but until I saw how fractured the WB really is and how permanent both the settlements and Arab villages are. It's unrealistic to get that large of people moving. We'll just change who says their land was "stolen". It's just seems easier to call the whole thing Israel and make everybody citizens. Given the recent polls that says the Arabs want to live in Israel rather than the WB, let's make everybody happy. :-)

                  •  But that wouldn't make everybody happy. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102, Corwin Weber

                    Oh well....

                    First of all there is minimal movement in Kadima's final pland (whether you agree with it or not) and you didn't even address the other issues. There is minimal movement theree as well.

                    DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                    by volleyboy1 on Sat May 14, 2011 at 09:41:28 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  If only you would answer my questions... (2+ / 0-)

            that would be nice.  I did not even refer to the Copts, did I?

            The feelings of antipathy toward Jews is going nowhere, and it is not just Islamists.  How do you explain it.

            Just recall what happened to Lara Logan and what prompted the attack.

            If you think that having a Palestine will make this go away, or it will even spare the Copts, I think you are blind to sad reality.

            •  The antipathy is misidentified (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poco

              I brought up the Copts because of the two simultaneous demonstrations that happened in Tahrir. The pro-Palestinian demonstration happened alongside the anti-violence to the Copts one. It isn't really an accident that these happened at the same time. If the young people are engaged and non-violence is shown as an effective way of solving problems those who seek both of our harm are ultimately defeated. As long as those who seek non-violent resistance are conflated with the terrorists, the terrorists win. Every time.

          •  If Christians... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JayinPortland, Mets102

            ....were an ethnic minority with a long history of being persecuted for that ethnicity, you might have an argument.  As it is, that history involves a hell of a lot of instances where Jewish people (both religious and not) woke up and discovered that their neighbors had decided that their ethnicity was suddenly a capital offense.  Even converting to the local religion wasn't enough to save them.

            So yes, having what you call a 'homogeneous Jewish nation' is in fact the solution.  It's the one place where Jews can have some assurance that this won't happen again.

            •  Unfortunately the "solution" is temporary (0+ / 0-)

              With the "demographic problem" the Jews will be a majority only temporarily. The reason why I keep bringing up the Christians is not because they have been persecuted more but rather they have been a minority under both the Muslims and the Jews. In the former case, they were able to live in peace. If the various peoples get in the habit of living together like the Christians and Muslims in Palestine then when (not if) the Jews become a minority again then the chances of repeated persecution is lessened.

              •  Tell that to the Germans. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JayinPortland, Mets102

                Or the Spanish.

                Again, time after time after time Jews have lived in an area, become integrated into a society, and then had that society turn on them.  Exactly how many times are you going to demand that Jews put up with this before they'll oh so graciously be allowed a tiny little strip of otherwise worthless land that's the one area in the middle east that doesn't have any oil under it?

              •  Yeah, you know what (4+ / 0-)

                you must be mistaking the Jews of today with the Jews of the European or Islamic ghettos.

                Those situations will never be allowed to happen again, nor will Jews quietly go away. We are not playing that "we lost and now have to curry your favor so you don't hurt us".

                Thanks for the concern trolling on our behalf. Thanks but no thanks.

                Shalom.

                DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 02:44:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I have to disagree with you Corwin (6+ / 0-)

              when you say this:

              So yes, having what you call a 'homogeneous Jewish nation' is in fact the solution.  It's the one place where Jews can have some assurance that this won't happen again

              Israeli Arabs and other non-Jews are 23% of Israel's population. Having a homogeneous Jewish State does not include them. While it would create the security that you seek (as do many of us) it would also create a horrendous human rights issue - one, which given our history, would be unacceptable.

              BTW, while this may not be what you mean, this is the political will of parties like Yisrael Beitanu and the Neo-Kahanist National Union. I would have a hard time believing this is what you support.

              On the other hand Israel can be a heterogeneous State, after the Two State Solution comes to pass (which it will in some form or another) with a Strong Jewish majority, one that will last hundreds of years into the future but with protections for it's minority population.

              You may want to clear this one up, and not rise to the comment about Israel not finding peace.

              DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

              by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 02:39:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Also consider this from a Western Christian (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              isabelle hayes

              (me). Comparing how we treated you when you were a minority and how we were treated by the Muslims when we were a minority, the Muslims are much more trustworthy. When I went to the Holocaust Museum in Israel what struck me was the walls and isolation and how that hardened and morally calloused the Christian majority in Europe. It would be easy to say ah, it was just the Nazis but the museum made a very powerful case that the problem was endemic in Europe for centuries.

              If we don't figure out a way to knock down these walls of suspicion and violence we're doomed as a species. If anything about our country is "special" it's the realization the solution to being a persecuted minority is to strive not to be the persecuting majority and continuing the cycle.

              You rightly say "never again" and I add "for anybody". In the Christian Scriptures there is a phrase from St. Paul, "love casts out fear". Call me naive but I still believe that just as the evil that was perpetrated on your people was contagious I contend that it's antidote is more contagious.

              שַׁבָּת שָׁלוֹם

              Shabbat Shalom

              •  Yeah, well the Spanish Christians.... (4+ / 0-)

                ....were pretty good about their treatment of Jews as well.

                Until they weren't.

              •  So are you saying that persecution... (7+ / 0-)

                of the Jewish minority is over?  I see it throughout the Muslim world, and in much of the Christian one as well, right wing and left.

                If only a fraction of Muslims/Arabs and Christians manifest animus, expressly and inwardly, it is exponentially more than the entire population of Jews wordlwide.

                Why must Jews be the ones that must understand others who are intolerant, particularly when we look at the track record of the persecutors and who has destroyed more human beings in pursuit of their cause?  

                •  Because we are "TEH JOOZ" (5+ / 0-)

                  and we are not important.

                  Notice that none of my questions were answered? You know why, because they cut to the heart of the matter and like most people here that are Pro-P they simply don't want to expose what they truly believe.

                  weasel though came close when he said the other day (paraphrasing): "Even if Israel where to fulfill all Palestinian Civil rights issues it still wouldn't be enough".

                  I wish others would be so refreshingly honest in their quest to end the existence of Israel and let people in the West know what they were really thinking.

                  DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                  by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 03:54:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My questions were also ignored... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Corwin Weber

                    regarding the rationale why it's needed to chant Khaybar in both Jordan and Egypt.

                    That is not very important, a mere oversight attributable to exuberance, I suppose.

                    I left a comment in the Naqba diary asking, among other things, if EVERY Palestinian was "driven out" by the Jewish/Israeli menace.  Wonder what the response will be?

                    I agree that too many hide the ball with their real intentions and hide behind the veil anti-Zionism, charitable purposes and human rights, but it's not hard to see through when one looks beyond the words.

                    At the risk of citing Alan Dershowitz, he said the following regarding Chomsky, that applies here as well:

                    I have debated Chomsky on several occasions and have found that he simply makes up facts and then characterizes them as "uncontroversial." This tactic works with sycophantic college audiences on the hard left, but for anyone who bothers to check "Chomsky facts," as his critics aptly dub them, will find that the source is often conspiratorial websites and hate propaganda. "Chomsky facts" bear little relationship to real facts, except on "Planet Chomsky," where a different reality governs.
                •  No I'm Not (0+ / 0-)

                  In fact, I'm taking all that's being said as a given. In Israel being in the majority is a possibility but not in the U.S. So, I was trying to take what we learned with respect to protecting the minority in this country. Even more so, since I live here and since I am part of the majority most of the take away is how do I make the U.S. a better place for religious minorities and specifically Jews to live. Given the millennia of persecution I understand and fully expected the skepticism you gave to my proposals.

                  I see the anti-Semitism in the conservative evangelical circles I live in. I hear the dog whistles all the time. But it's the secular leftists who get accused and we get wined and dined by the PM of Israel! The skepticism you showed to me individually should be even more so to the group I belong to. I'm not saying be less vigilant but even more so.

                  •  Ummm okay.... (4+ / 0-)
                    I see the anti-Semitism in the conservative evangelical circles I live in. I hear the dog whistles all the time. But it's the secular leftists who get accused and we get wined and dined by the PM of Israel!

                    We here at DKos and particularly in Team Shalom see the same thing and frankly don't like it. But, again where have you seen support from anyone here for "wining and dining of this group". You keep repeating yourself about this but you simply never address our questions.

                    The skepticism you showed to me individually should be even more so to the group I belong to. I'm not saying be less vigilant but even more so.

                    ummm again.... Can you show me anywhere that anyone here has supported Christian Evangelical support of Israel? Anywhere? Anyone?

                    Are you implying Team Shalom is an outgrowth of Israel and is part of the Israeli Government? You seem to keep conflating people at Daily Kos with Right Wing Israelis. Is that what you believe? IF so, can you show us any proof you have that any poster here is an employee or member of the Israeli government?

                    DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 04:40:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're Misreading Me (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poco

                      My starting assumption was your own description of yourselves which I presumed was like the Israeli left or perhaps center. What I saw in Israel and the West Bank changed me.  What's done in your name by the Israeli Ministry of Tourism gives people like myself the impression I gave above. So, I tried to repeatedly to give you a chance to disabuse me of that bad first impression searching desperately for a rational conversation where name-calling is norm but to no avail.  (So far.)

                      As for your questions we have gone too far down thread. Please repeat them.

                  •  When it's a given... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Corwin Weber

                    like the Israeli right of self-defense, that too often means it is dismissed when the explanation arises.

                    I asked why it is necessary to chant Khaybar in this circumstance?  What does the chant mean to those who say it and to those who hear it?

                    Why all the gobbledegook responses including the situation of Copts and in the USA when I asked specifically about what occurred today in both Jordan and Egypt?

                    Are you just hesitant to say that this shows that Jews are blamed no matter what, or that hatred and desire to kill Jews is a given, so let's now speak about Israel?

                    Why does the Western media, and you for that matter avoid what is the more burning issue that peace is further away these chants and other anti-Semitic manifestations continue?

                    Why so hesitant to advocate against this as much as against the oppression of Palestinians by Israel, while it's more muted when at the hands of other Arabs?  

                    •  Don't Bother (4+ / 0-)

                      I just read through his other comments. He is not even paying attention, along with accusing us of being Israeli Governmental shills and supporters of rightwing evangelicals.

                      Go figure - this is the best Team P can send in?

                      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                      by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 04:58:59 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Actually...I was really hoping for an answer... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Corwin Weber

                        and I will ask this of team P people as well.

                        Why do so many Arabs and Muslims want to kill Jews, and why do they stand so silent when such behavior is exposed, on the peace flotilla and elsewhere?

                        Even if Jews mistreat Arabs like they say, does that justify calling for genocide of Jews?

                        Except for religious and political extremists that are a small segment, can they provide examples of Jew/Israelis calling for the eradication and killing of all Muslims?  Can they point to its dissemination in the Israeli or Jewish mainstream media?

                        Or do they deny this exists in their world?  

                        It's time to get some straight answers.

                        •  Straight Answers to Honest Questions (0+ / 0-)
                          Why do so many Arabs and Muslims want to kill Jews, and why do they stand so silent when such behavior is exposed, on the peace flotilla and elsewhere?

                          The I/P question at least has the competition for land behind it. Changing the nouns to Christians and Americans is what bothers me particularly the silence. All the talk about how the Jews take stuff from us is just made up. What impressed me about the Palestinians (and the Israelis for that matter) was how peaceful they were given the circumstances. This is why I keep talking about getting them to live together.  The Israeli Arabs have lived in peace with the Israeli Jews for longer than I have been alive. Why should the Palestinians in the West Bank/Gaza be any different? By being separated it just gives the whackos that want genocide an audience.

                          Even if Jews mistreat Arabs like they say, does that justify calling for genocide of Jews?

                          That was a softball. No.

                          Except for religious and political extremists that are a small segment, can they provide examples of Jew/Israelis calling for the eradication and killing of all Muslims?

                          I think that can be turned around. I don't think the bomb throwers (literal and figurative) are representative of either side.

                          Can they point to its dissemination in the Israeli or Jewish mainstream media?

                          Now that's a real difference. I wonder how much of that in the Arab world is state run? We'll have to see once the channels are replaced by more "democratic" ones.

                          Or do they deny this exists in their world?

                          Oh, they exist. Evil is very much real, sadly.

                          •  I think you are short on understanding... (0+ / 0-)

                            because it is way beyond the I/P connection, in its origins and manifestations.

                            If it's on state run TV, isn't it worse?

                            I suggest you familiarize yourself more with the words of mainstream Arab and Muslim leaders about Jews.  Some of it, too much of it, is genocidal.  A person of a group that suffered genocide and other persecution by tha majority has every reason and right to take these threats seriously, and too many NEVER say a word as they denounce Israel.

                            The opposition to genocide, after all, is a given.

                    •  Q&A (0+ / 0-)

                      The Israeli right to self defense is part of my given.

                      I asked why it is necessary to chant Khaybar in this circumstance?  What does the chant mean to those who say it and to those who hear it?

                      Sorry I don't know what Khaybar means. I'll assume it's something really terrible. My point was by deleting part of the quote it obfuscated the point that to the people in the crowd it was really offensive.

                      Why all the gobbledegook responses including the situation of Copts and in the USA when I asked specifically about what occurred today in both Jordan and Egypt?

                      Because the Copts were also in view in Tahrir today. The same Salafists that are firing rockets out of Gaza are blowing up Coptic churches. By having the pro-unity rally it shows there are a number of Egyptians that reject the Salafist worldview.

                      Are you just hesitant to say that this shows that Jews are blamed no matter what, or that hatred and desire to kill Jews is a given, so let's now speak about Israel?

                      What I was taken as given was the long history of persecution of the Jews and Christian (mostly Western) complicity in it. (And we weren't very nice to the Muslims either.) So, yes, the Jews are blamed no matter what. It's unfair, sucks, and bloody difficult. Given that how do you order civil society (and American policy) to best protect you. I also know that given what's above you will never believe me. It's unfair, sucks, and bloody difficult. You believe that the status quo is the best way to accomplish our common goal. I disagree. It's your homeland and you have every right to disregard my opinion and question my motives. All that doesn't bother me. What does bother me when I see that done to others particularly when the groups are here on DK. Actually frustrated is a better word. I see your point and I see the pro-P point and the lack of the mutual understanding makes me pessimistic on reaching a solution to the problem.

                      Why does the Western media, and you for that matter avoid what is the more burning issue that peace is further away these chants and other anti-Semitic manifestations continue?

                      I've heard anti-Semitic chants for decades not just in the ME but here in the US.  What's new is the pushback by the youth in the ME. Not so much progress in the US. In fact, we've been regressing.

                      Why so hesitant to advocate against this as much as against the oppression of Palestinians by Israel, while it's more muted when at the hands of other Arabs?  

                      I'm not hesitant at all. All oppression is bad no matter who does it.  I do give more of a pass for the minority and try to see the bright side and I suspect that's what you are detecting.

                      •  Thank you for finally answering... (0+ / 0-)

                        after so many efforts.

                        There were some in the Egyptian crowd that objected, but neither of us know how many.  The fact that you did not even bother to look up the meaning of Khaybar is pretty sad.

                        Do you know how many Copts were there?  They also want freedom, but the events in Egypt and elsewhere in the region show that Christians are being chased out.  Only in Israel have the numbers of Christians increased.  Go figure,

                        I have seen the same mentality about Jews expressed even among the young.  It starts with the powers that be, and filters through much of society.  I think you will see in the end that there will be little tolerance, and that pushback is an illusion.

                        It's far better in the USA than in ME and Europe when it comes to permissible anti-Semitism.

                        Finally, if you do advocate against oppression, why do you give a pass to any minority when they chant for genocide, which is what Khaybar is.  By their numbers in this struggle that encompasses more than just Israel and the territories, are not Jews the actual minority, no matter where they have been found?    

                         

                        •  I tried looking it up (0+ / 0-)

                          But my Google search whiffed.  I don't give a pass for calling for genocide by anybody. Thanks for the translation.

                          •  But you were more concerned... (0+ / 0-)

                            that I did not include the last sentence than the substance of the chant, which was not only in Egypt, but on the Mari Mavara

                            Notice it was called enthusiasm.  How nice!  Where was the hue and cry for this genocidal chant by the "peace" activists?

                            As for Khaybar, it is spelled differently by different people.  Here's a link:

                            http://www.google.com/...

                          •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

                            I believed you when you said that the word Kaybar meant genocide. Your link mentioned a battle where the Jews were required to pay jizya in exchange for dhimmi. The Christian guide I had in Bethlehem mentioned a similar arrangement for the Christians under the Ottomans. Now they cannot get to the Church of the Holy Sepulcre during Easter. This is the why behind my statement that the Christians prefer the Muslim rule because dhimmi status provides them more religious liberty.

                  •  While I don't doubt the anti-semitism (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Corwin Weber

                    amongst the conservative evangelical circles, unfortunately it is becoming far too common among the secular leftist circles as well.  

                    Hell hath no fury like a cat ignored...

                    by Gatordiet on Fri May 13, 2011 at 05:49:00 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Good interview in CFR blog with... (5+ / 0-)

    David Makovsky, Ziegler Distinguished Fellow and Director, Project on the Middle East Peace Process, Washington Institute for Near East Policy

    http://www.cfr.org/...

    Regarding Netanyahu's May 25 visit:

    What's required here is a political vision that goes beyond the immediate. He needs to take the initiative, because if he doesn't, you will have this vote in September at the UN General Assembly on Palestinian statehood. Israel has never been in that position before. Instead of looking at the move toward Palestinian unity tactically and saying, "Hamas has helped us out" [because Hamas does not recognize Israel], I think Netanyahu should come forward and say: "Look, there are two major barriers to be crossed here. I will cross one, and Hamas should cross the other. I will cross the territory issue." That's what the Palestinians don't believe Israel on: They don't believe that Israel is genuine in promising to provide them with a continuous Palestinian state as part of an agreement. For that to happen, Hamas has to cross a threshold too, recognizing Israel as a Jewish state with equal rights for all citizens.

    His remedy regarding the settlement stumbling block:

    That's why I'm so keen on there being a border worked out first. If there is a border, there are no more settlements. It makes the settlement issue moot. If you adjust the border by 5 percent, that will place most of the settlers inside of Israel. Instead of all of the focus on the symptoms, let's find a cure. Enough of the appetizer, let's deal with the main course.

    The Palestinians could say that we got the 1/1 land swap and the Israelis could say we got 80 percent of the settlements.

    Perhaps he makes some sense?

  •  Protest a tough sell among Palestinians (5+ / 0-)

    LA Times

    Camped under a tent in what he hoped would become the Tahrir Square of the West Bank, hunger striker Iyas Sarhan reclined on a foam mattress in a pair of increasingly baggy slim-fit jeans and waited for the Palestinian revolution to begin.

    ...

    Most of the West Bank protests in recent months have mustered only a few hundred — sometimes a few dozen — demonstrators. Facebook pages calling for a "third intifada" and mass actions against Israel  count tens of thousands of online followers. But turnout for a March 30 protest on the Palestinians' Land Day was so small that one organizer nearly quit in disgust.

    ...

    A key challenge is the growing frustration among Palestinians, and particularly the younger generation, with the political parties, including Fatah, Hamas and a few others. Nearly two-thirds of Palestinians aged 18 through 34 said they don't trust any political faction and just as many suspect that the mainstream parties are trying to exploit the youth movement for their own political purposes, according to a March survey by the Sharek Youth Forum. Many believe the recent reconciliation was driven partly by a desire of both parties to defuse rising public frustration over the Fatah-Hamas fracture.

    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

    by JNEREBEL on Fri May 13, 2011 at 11:40:14 AM PDT

  •  Cairo: military fires shots to disperse protesters (5+ / 0-)

    AFP via Al-Ahram, Egypt army fires shots to disperse anti-Israel protest

    Egyptian troops fired in the air Friday to disperse a protest outside the Israeli embassy demanding the expulsion of the ambassador and the severance of ties with the Jewish state, an AFP reporter said.
    [...]
     The protest -- which would have been banned under the regime of ousted president Hosni Mubarak -- was timed to coincide with establishment of Israel 63 years ago, commonly referred to in Arabic as the "Nakba" or "catastrophe."

    The Israeli embassy, on the top floor of a residential building overlooking the Nile, was protected by army and police officers who barricaded the narrow street leading to the entrance.
    [more]

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Fri May 13, 2011 at 01:05:14 PM PDT

  •  For those interested (6+ / 0-)

    Haaretz has a solid piece from Aluf Benn on the potential comeback of Ehud Barak

    1. The man who keeps coming back

    At the Independence Day reception for outstanding soldiers held at the President's Residence, the president, the prime minister, the defense minister and the chief of staff were each asked to choose a song and sing it via live broadcast with vocalists who were on hand. Defense Minister Ehud Barak chose "I Am Here," the song by Haim Hefer and Dubi Seltzer made famous by Yehoram Gaon. "I return from an unsown land, I return from 1,000 incarnations," sang Barak with Harel Skaat. "I'm the man who always returns, returns."

    Interesting.....

    DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

    by volleyboy1 on Fri May 13, 2011 at 03:29:29 PM PDT

  •  One side of the dawn prayers in (0+ / 0-)

    midan at-tahrir.

    The chant is we are the "youth of the kalashnikov"
    and "we will solve the [Palestinian] cause"
    the center of all prayers was for occupied Jerusalem.  

    This will keep on boiling in Egypt and if Palestinians don't get a state by September (e.g., Obama drops the ball), then things wil be in flux in Egypt. I hope that Syria also falls. I really don't think that anything will save the occupation especially of Jerusalem if things are not resolved soon.

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