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With September fast approaching and a potential vote on Palestinian Statehood in the U.N. General Assembly, a Palestinian unity government was being planned to take the fractured Palestinian Polity into the future. First there was to be a "Government of Technocrats", a moderate government to take this polity and put it on the path of responsible self government. After that (formed in June), should negotiations with Israel for an end to the lands taken in the 1967 Six Day War not be realized, the Palestinians were going to submit an application for Statehood and membership to the United Nations in September.

The World has firmly shown itself to be behind this move in the U.N. However, the West (the U.S. and E.U.) have shown concern due to the involvement of Hamas in the new unity government. Western support for this is important due to the vast financial resources that the West wields. Should the new Palestinian Government be too responsive to Hamas' demands then they risk an end to much needed financing for their new nation.

The figure that has the Wests' confidence is Palestinian PM Salam Fayyad and the one person that Hamas does not want to see in the PM office is Salam Fayyad.

Last week, Fayyad was nominated by Fatah to head Palestinian unity government

The Fatah movement nominated Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to head a transitional Palestinian government Saturday as part of a unity deal with their rivals in the Islamic militant group Hamas.

The nomination of the economist could ease Western concerns over the reconciliation deal, which offers Hamas an equal say in the administration that will govern until elections next year.

But the nomination could complicate the efforts of Hamas and Fatah negotiators already struggling to implement the details of the agreement.

Fayyad, a political independent, has used his term to build and strengthen state institutions and has won the respect of foreign donors. But Hamas considers him a tool of the West.

Apparently as the Haaretz article speculated, Hamas was none too pleased.  Palestine's Maan News reported yesterday that Hamas was saying: No role for Fayyad in unity govt

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Hamas on Sunday rejected Fatah's proposal to appoint Salam Fayyad to head the new unity government, said senior Hamas leader Salah Al-Bardawil.

"Hamas will not agree on Salam Fayyad as a prime minister, or even a minister in the upcoming unity government," Al-Bardawil said in a statement.

Fatah's central committee selected Fayyad, who currently leads the Palestinian Authority, as the party's candidate to head an interim government of independents, a senior party official told AFP.

Al-Bardawil said he was uncomfortable dealing with "leaked reports," adding that it was "doubtless that we will never accept Fayyad as prime minister or as minister.

Mr. Fayyad the P.A.'s Prime Minister since 2007 (disputed by Hamas), enjoys broad support in the international community and is seen by the E.U. and the U.S. (and even Israel) as someone who could bring a "responsible" governance to the fractious Palestinian Polity. However, while he enjoys great support abroad, he is not particularly well liked by the majority in his own polity.

YET.. as this Haaretz artcle mentions:

Last month, Fatah and Hamas signed a deal in Egypt to end their rift and join together in a caretaker government. But implementation of the power-sharing deal has moved slowly.

Fearing international pressure on Hamas could jeopardize hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid, they have committed to putting together a Cabinet comprised entirely of apolitical technocrats. It remains unclear when they will be able to agree upon a slate of Cabinet ministers that is acceptable to the international community.

Indeed, there are millions if not billions of dollars in aid and practical needs for the fledgling Palestinian State riding on this. Whether Fayyad is Prime Minister would most likely NOT affect the vote in the General Assembly which is expected to overwhelmingly support the motion (should it get to the U.N.). However, what this could do is affect much needed foreign aid aside from negatively affecting realties on the ground for the Palestinian Polity. Their economy as it currently stands is largely dependent on foreign aid and right now the only ones who can seemingly continue this is the West.

So what's the next step? According to Hamas the next Prime Minister is to come from Gaza. Is this a final point or is this a mere negotiating point to be discussed at the meeting scheduled for tomorrow in Cairo?

Please add your thoughts.

Originally posted to volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 10:25 AM PDT.

Also republished by Team Shalom.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Hopefully they're just trying to get (10+ / 0-)

    something in exchange for letting him be the PM.

  •  Is Al-Bardawil part of Gaza Hamas (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wader

    or Damascus Hamas?

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 10:33:08 AM PDT

    •  Gaza... Here is a profile on him (9+ / 0-)

      Salah al-Bardawil

      *Professor in Faculty of Arts, Islamic University in Gaza City (Palestine)

      *Official Speaker of HAMAS in Khan Youness (Palestine)

      *Columnist in Al Risala Weekly Magazine (Palestine)

      * Member of Palestinian Writers Union in Gaza (Palestine)

      * Chairman of National Grouping for Thought and Culture (Palestine)

      * Member of The Palestinian Legislative Council (Reformation and Ghange List) (Palestine)

      *Elected Deputy for Khan Youness (Palestine

      Apparently he speaks for Hamas enough that Ma'an lists him as a spokesperson.  

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 10:41:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss (4+ / 0-)

    an opportunity.

    Well said.

    Though in the grand scheme of things, this is probably a good thing, because there is no reason Israel should negotiate with a part-Hamas government.  Hamas' goal, remember, is the total genocide of the Jewish people.

    •  I thought it was the ending of the Jewish state (0+ / 0-)

      not genocide.

      •  Nope. It's genocide. (5+ / 0-)
        Among the charter's controversial statements is the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

        •  Hmm. (5+ / 0-)

          Welcome back to Daily Kos, #310,273. Just out of curiosity, this isn't your first time here, is it?

          Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

          by MBNYC on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:54:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This passage makes absolutely no sense. (0+ / 0-)

          What time will not come?

          Unless this is something like from an ancient writing, are they saying in some modern document that rocks and trees are going to cry out in intelligible words?

          What are you quoting here?

          •  The Hamas Covenant (9+ / 0-)

            which they have never changed or renounced. Check it out.. it's a doozy.

            This is whole quote:

            Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant provides the following quotation, attributed to Mohammed:

            "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."[217]


            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:23:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for the full post. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, Paul in Berkeley, MBNYC

              So Hamas wants the Day of Judgment and won't accept anything less?  Well, we can see that the Palestinian state wouldn't last long, then.

              I've never heard of a Gharkad tree before.  Have to go look it up.

            •  Misleading. nt (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              downsouth
              •  It's only misleading if you're (3+ / 0-)

                trying to whitewash the Islamic texts used by Hamas to justify their genocidal agenda.

              •  LOL - how is that misleading (11+ / 0-)

                Is it or is not in the Hamas Covenant?

                Here is the Hamas Covenant for all to read.

                You might want to tell them they are misleading folks here at Daily Kos.

                DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:47:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because it's a quote of a quote. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  socalmonk, Eiron, poco, downsouth

                  Here's a more direct statement from the Hamas Covenant regarding their attitude toward Jews:

                  Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security.

                  I think you're being disingenuous, volleyboy1.

                  •  Dude, have you studied Islam? (2+ / 0-)

                    I have.

                       Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security.

                    Most interpretations of the Qu'ran and the Hadith say that it is possible for Jews and Christians to live in safety under Islamic rule, but only if they pay the jizya (tax) and are subservient to Muslims.  They have many fewer rights and are not allowed to build or repair houses of worship.

                    •  I didn't say they were wonderful. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      socalmonk

                      But, obviously, they do not envision genocide of the Jews, as you falsely claimed.

                      •  Err no... Prob Stat - Hamas does envision genocide (7+ / 0-)

                        of the Jews. Perhaps you haven't read the whole covenant. I posted it for you here.

                        and speaking of out of context - you realize that your quote is way out of context. Here is the next line after your quote:

                        It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

                        So basically, all religions can live in peace as long as they accept that Islam rules the entire region and that they are second class.  Got it.

                        Of course, we Jews don't really accept that. So then.....

                        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                        by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 01:11:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sort of like saying ... (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          socalmonk, Eiron, downsouth

                          ... that Palestinians are welcome at the bargaining table as long as they elect the leaders that you want them to? And otherwise they are consigning themselves to a future of "carnage, displacement, and terror?" OK, maybe the word "carnage" isn't used in damning the Palestinians' choices.

                          I think you're being disingenuous, volleyboy1.

                          •  Focus ProbStat, Focus. (6+ / 0-)

                            This conversation is about Hamas and the Charter. You say that I am misleading. I pointed out that not only am I not misleading anyone but, that in fact it was your comment that was misleading. I even printed up the Hamas Covenant for you to look at.

                            Now your little distraction point is lovely but irrelevant to my post.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 01:28:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There's a old religious counsel ... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Eiron, downsouth

                            ... that if you are having a dispute with someone over a particular matter, you should go out of your way to treat him with utmost respect and kindness in all of your other dealings with him, so that your dispute does not poison the rest of your relationship with that person.

                            Now, I know, I know -- what could those old bastards know? They'd probably think that someone who shows his junk to complete strangers is not someone you should elect to your legislature!

                            But isn't there a little bit of wisdom in that, volleyboy1?

                            And do you think that you're following this counsel in your comments on Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims?

                            Because I sure as hell fucking don't.

                          •  Well, bully for you!! (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, JNEREBEL, Corwin Weber, CTMET
                            There's a old religious counsel ... ... that if you are having a dispute with someone over a particular matter, you should go out of your way to treat him with utmost respect and kindness in all of your other dealings with him, so that your dispute does not poison the rest of your relationship with that person.

                            Umm you might want to take your own advice on this on Prob Stat.

                            Also please try to keep distractions from other diaries out of this one, this diary has nothing to do with Rep. Wiener.

                            Again, Prob Stat.. focus. It is a good thing to do when in discussion. You claimed I was misleading ColoTim when I quoted the Hamas charter. But in reality it was YOU that was being misleading and not including a whole quote.

                            Now in the spirit of respect and kindness that you purport to support don't you think you should apologize to me for accusing me of trying to mislead someone?

                            I think you should.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 01:48:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, you're simply wrong. nt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            downsouth
                          •  :P Great comeback - that sure is convincing. (5+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, JNEREBEL, Corwin Weber, CTMET, zemblan

                            Will you be apologizing to me and others for deliberately trying to mislead people now? I included a link to the Hamas Covenant for all to see here - would you like to repring the article that you are quoting so all can see?

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:09:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Were you going to be convinced? (0+ / 0-)

                            So what's the point?

                            Anyone who wants can look to your link to see the truth. I hope they do.

                          •  I was just thinking the same thing (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, Mets102, Corwin Weber, CTMET

                            LOL....

                            They will see the truth.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:25:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Don't back down VB1. Thats the truth about where (5+ / 0-)

                            Hamas is "officially" right now. I think there are divisions within Hamas about the usefulness of that part of their charter with a great deal of support for it coming from Hamas "Corporate" in Damascus, and a lot less coming from the folks on the ground in Gaza.

                            Despite this, I'm for keeping the dialog open with all parties, but Hamas really can't be involved in any peach deal until they do something about that.

                            Pretending it doesn't exist is very very bad.

                            ... and as I say to those those who believe Ahmendinijad is misquoted when he talks about wiping Israel off the face of the map, Neither of them are really doing anything to set the record straight.

                            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

                            by CTMET on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 04:46:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well thanks but I am not backing down... (3+ / 0-)

                            Take a look at my history - you will see that I don't do that.

                            The thing is that ProbStat and friends (though it doesn't seem like he has many here) don't want people to see what the Hamas charter says as it wrecks their meme.

                            Anyway, thanks for the kind words.  

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 04:56:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  First rule of Team-P..... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, volleyboy1

                            ...don't fuck up the narrative.

                          •  When you're wrong ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            downsouth

                            ... shouldn't you back down?

                            And yet, you claim that you don't back down.

                            Do you also claim that you are never wrong, or do you prefer always to "win" arguments (at least in your own mind ...) as opposed to coming to a clearer understanding of the truth through argument?

                            As yet another diversion, do you view Israel as a colonial effort? I ask, because your mode of defending it is very colonial: an independent nation having disputes with its neighbors would seek to make its arguments in terms that its neighbors might understand; but you argue for Israel in terms that would just be considered stupid and offensive to most Arabs, but that maybe carry traction here, thousands of miles from Israel and its neighbors. If you want to support Israel as an independent state, why are you not more interested in arguments that it might be able to convince its neighbors of?

                          •  If you mean by "wrong" you mean I proved you (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber, Mets102

                            wrong. well then ok.

                            Keep trying to divert, but really you accused me of misleading people and I showed where you were wrong. Then I proved you of misleading people.

                            But anyway, nice attempt at hijacking. If you want to talk about the founding of Israel write your own diary and you make the arguments.

                            You do realize this is pretty easy to see through your "HEY.. LOOK OVER THERE!" comments. I know on MondoFront that works but really here it doesn't.

                            I look forward to your diary telling Israelis to do exactly what the Arabs want them too, then I look forward to laughing at it.

                            Thanks for the preliminary chuckle.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 07:43:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'll take that as ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            downsouth

                            ... you prefer always to "win" arguments. ;-)

                          •  Yes I do like to "win" arguments. ;-) (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:13:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I can understand why. (0+ / 0-)

                            It's surely a rare treat for you. ;-)

                          •  Well not when I argue with you ;-) (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:41:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Welcome at the bargaining table..... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, volleyboy1

                            ...as long as they elect leaders that are willing to bargain on a point other than how they're going to kill people.

                            I don't see that as being unreasonable.

          •  That's from the Hamas charter. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TakeMeOutOfMyMissouri

            That passage specifically comes from Islamic scripture, which is the basis for Hamas.

        •  see above (11+ / 0-)

          Also recent statements that Jews would have to go "back" to their "countries of origin" once Israel is defeated and replaced with a medieval theocracy

          •  Handicapper misleads. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            downsouth

            The more complete quote is:

            The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

            No, it's not pretty, but if a country that by its doctrine is Jewish has its foot on your neck, not very surprising that you would seek out a quotation from the founder of your religion assuring you victory against the Jews; there are certainly uglier passages from the Old Testament. A more direct quote of the attitude of the Hamas Charter on Judaism is:
            Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security.

            As to "countries of origin," would you say that Jews who were born in America are not American? Is America not their country of origin?
            •  a small percentage of Israelis were born (9+ / 0-)

              in America.  Most were born there, so it is their country of origin.

            •  No actually he doesn't but your comment does (7+ / 0-)

              it lacks the follow-up context which states that all religions can live in peace only as long as they accept Islamic superiority over the region.

              DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

              by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 01:17:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Your comments have stopped being interesting. nt (1+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Eiron
                Hidden by:
                TakeMeOutOfMyMissouri
                •  Well then you are certainly welcome (7+ / 0-)

                  to not participate in my diaries if I am so uninteresting.

                  BTW, sucks when you get caught misrepresenting your position. Doesn't it?

                  DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                  by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:10:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're being disingenuous, volleyboy1. (0+ / 0-)

                    Again.

                    But keep repeating; maybe one day you'll believe yourself.

                    •  Okie Dokie, you are welcome to your delusions (6+ / 0-)

                      I was very straight forward. I am sorry the Hamas Covenant blows your meme about a "Peaceful and Happy Hamas" (which is what you seem to be saying), but...

                      Hey don't get mad at me for making up a xenophobic, eliminationist, and racist covenent. Tell it to Hamas. They are the ones who are making you look bad.

                      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:59:07 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  People should read it. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        downsouth

                        Among foundation documents of organizations for people subjected to invasion and occupation, I'd say it's pretty tame.

                        Do you suppose the ANC's Constitution provided for white South Africans to refuse to abide by whatever government the ANC managed to establish? Did you support the Boers who refused to accept the post-Apartheid government in South Africa? If not, then what do you think is the essential difference between Jews in Israel and Boers in South Africa?

                        •  Err what????? That just makes no sense (7+ / 0-)
                          Among foundation documents of organizations for people subjected to invasion and occupation, I'd say it's pretty tame

                          So you would say it is "tame" to

                          1. Call for the Elimination of the Jewish People
                          2. Cite the Protocols of the Elders of Zion
                          3. That blames Jews for the International Communist conspiracy?

                          If that is "tame" what the hell qualifies as vicious to you?

                          As for your ridculous analogy about Boers and Jews...

                          You have now graduated to babbling. Congrats.

                          But, that is a bad diversion in any case.

                          So how is that apology coming.

                          DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                          by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 03:20:44 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Take a deep breath, volleyboy1. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            downsouth

                            You have a link to the Hamas document; where do you allege it calls for the "Elimination of the Jewish People?" And why do you capitalize "elimination?" If you have only the quotation from Mohammed, that doesn't fly with me, so don't bother.

                            Yes, there is a lot of stupidity in the Hamas document. But remember, the Palestinians did not ask to have Israel created among them; they did not have the leisure to study the history of the Jews and of Zionism objectively. And when someone invades your country, if you tend to believe anything bad that you read about them, is that really so hard to understand?

                            You might look to "La Marseillase," full version, for a more vicious national "document." I also understand that the prayer that the Kamikaze pilots of Japan during WWII spoke before their missions was repugnant enough that translation of it is suppressed.

                            I asked you what the essential difference was between Boers in South Africa and Jews in Israel. You have yet to name one. Pretending that its a "ridiculous analogy" or a "bad diversion" is not constructive. Obviously, there are differences between the two. You (I infer) believe that there are differences that make it proper to applaud the ANC for insisting that the Boers fall under their government, while you fault Hamas for thinking that Jews should have to live under an Islamic government. I can see that there are differences that might lead to that conclusion, but it seems to be much more clear to you than it is to me. If it is so clear, state your reasons to me as simply as you can and we'll be done.

                            I know of no cause for which I should apologize to you.

                          •  Wow you make it too easy (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber, Mets102

                            You say:

                            You have a link to the Hamas document; where do you allege it calls for the "Elimination of the Jewish People?"

                            Article 7 of the Hamas covenant - it's right there. Pretty much spells it all out:

                            The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."[217]
                            And when someone invades your country, if you tend to believe anything bad that you read about them, is that really so hard to understand?

                            First of all Jews are indigenous to Israel and Palestine. Second, that is a piss poor rationale for racism. Pretty simple really.

                            I also understand that the prayer that the Kamikaze pilots of Japan during WWII spoke before their missions was repugnant enough that translation of it is suppressed.

                            What does that have to do with anything. Imperial Japan was a fairly repugnant government and their part in World War II was disgraceful (you know allies with the Nazis and all). Is that really who you want to compare Hamas too? I mean I can see it but, I don't think that is where you want to go with that.

                            I asked you what the essential difference was between Boers in South Africa and Jews in Israel.

                            Well let's see the Boers were 12% of the population of South Africa, Jews are 77% of the population of Israel. Their political system was set up on a racist basis of White superiority, Israel is not. Blacks in South Africa, could not work or attend University with Whites, In Israel they can. Blacks could not vote in National elections, Arabs can. Facilities were segregated by race in S.A. they are not in Israel.

                            Should I keep going or are you getting humiliated enough.

                            Oh and you should apologize because you accused me of misleading when really it was you who posted a comment with no context. So, yep you should still apologize and I am still waiting.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 07:39:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oops. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            downsouth

                            Back to the Mohammed quote.

                            I think you know that is not intended as a call to eliminate the Jewish People, so you're a liar.

                            First of all Jews are indigenous to Israel and Palestine.

                            You mean Jewish Americans are not American? Isn't that, uh, antisemitic? Am I indigenous to ... let's see ... Scotland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Emgland? Do I get to chose which?
                            Well let's see the Boers were 12% of the population of South Africa, Jews are 77% of the population of Israel.

                            And South Africa is also about 60 times the size of Israel; could not some enclave have been found for the Boers to maintain their independence, if they had so chosen? Should I also mention that the Boer emigrations to South Africa occurred almost entirely in the 17th and 18th centuries?
                            Their political system was set up on a racist basis of White superiority, Israel is not.

                            But these inconvenient Palestinians in Israel -- is the Jewish State their state? Are they indigenous to Israel? Can the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories drive on the highways Israel built through their lands? Can Palestinian Israeli political parties advocate that Israel should abandon being a "Jewish State," which might tend to make them feel like foreigners in their own lands?

                            As for the apology, you're the one who has lied here. So you apologize.

                            Also, do you think Arabs buy all of the suppositions that you insist upon for your arguments? That Israel's legitimacy cannot be questioned, for example? I don't think they do. If that's correct, do you think their opinions just don't matter? Why is that, if that is indeed what you think?

                          •  Again way too easy (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, Corwin Weber
                            You mean Jewish Americans are not American? Isn't that, uh, antisemitic? Am I indigenous to ... let's see ... Scotland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Emgland? Do I get to chose which?

                            No, you make that assumption not I. But the Jewish people started out as indeginous to the Israel and there has always been a Jewish presence there. But no, Jews born in America are native to America BUT because of being Jewish have roots in Israel.

                            Most Palestinians now are not born in Palestine, using your argument would you say they don't have roots in Palestine. Interesting that you, an advocate of the Palestinians don't even believe that Palestinians are native to Palestine. I am just using your logic here.

                            Should I also mention that the Boer emigrations to South Africa occurred almost entirely in the 17th and 18th centuries?

                            Should I mention Jews have had a presence in the Middle East since the origination of Judaism thousands of years ago?

                            Back to the Mohammed quote.

                            I think you know that is not intended as a call to eliminate the Jewish People, so you're a liar.

                            NO I don't know that, because that is exactly what it is. And considering their charter borrows heavily from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (that isn't real you do know that - right) coupled with these comments:

                            "They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine," Mahmoud Zahar said in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location. "They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people." (vb1 emphasis)

                            orthese:

                            The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

                            "Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

                            Sermon delivered by 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV, April 8, 2011, translation by MEMRI).</</em>blockquote>

                            or perhaps this:

                            "...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am'... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs]."

                            (Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

                            Well now.. that sure sounds eliminationist, doesn't it.

                            Can Palestinian Israeli political parties advocate that Israel should abandon being a "Jewish State," which might tend to make them feel like foreigners in their own lands?


                            Yes, they can... and funny enough they do. Have you read things from Hadash, or Balad, or the other Arab parties?

                            Also, do you think Arabs buy all of the suppositions that you insist upon for your arguments?

                            No, but really do you think Jews in general buy your or the Arab suppositions you insist on?

                            Do you think I honestly care if they don't?

                            As far apologies go - you are losing this argument and the others, pretty much you should apologize for misrepresenting both Hamas (making them seem less noxious) and my views (making them seem noxious).

                            So waiting for that apology.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:40:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So nothing from the Hamas Charter. (0+ / 0-)

                            Making your original statement a lie, as noted.

                            As I read Jewish history, (1) the Land of Israel was given to them by a deity, but that in spite of this, (2) they had to take it by force from its original inhabitants, the Canaanites. So they weren't always there, and the provenance by which they claim the land is, uh, poor.

                            And Abraham I believe was supposedly from the city of Ur in what is now Iraq.

                            I don't think a typical Arab would accept this part of your argument, nor could I blame him.

                            Can't you do any better?

                            As I think of it, some day a diabolically clever Palestinian or Arab will come along, and he'll come up with a way to destroy Israel, one that cannot really be defended against. Is there some argument that might be made to this person to convince him that he should not go through with his plan? And, obviously, the argument would have to exclude such things as that the League of Nations, back when his kind was considered sub-human, decided that Palestine should become the home of the Jewish People.

                            Do you think that's something worth worrying about? Because I've noticed that people are awfully clever, and that they come up with things that you or I would never think of ourselves. Do you know what I mean?

                            As an example, I'd been wondering since about 1985 why Arab/Palestinian terrorists don't target the US rather than Israel: we bankroll Israel; we have a much more open and vulnerable society than Israel; and we are not nearly as committed to continuing the struggle as Israel is.

                            When the first World Trade Center bombing occurred in 1993, the biggest surprise to me was that they bungled it. And then the 2001 attacks, while tactically quite clever, were much less damaging than they might have been with a more long-term strategy; I suspect that the main intent of the attacks was to signal to the Muslim world that the West is not invulnerable rather than to cause very much direct harm.

                            Anyway, I expect that worse is to come, probably more for Israel than for America in the near term. Maybe you think that God will provide for you, or something like that, but I think the best defense is not to be offensive. Israel, certainly, and America to a broad degree, have failed in that.

                            I don't think that bodes well for the future of either.

                          •  Ok so aside from pointing out the racism of Hamas (3+ / 0-)

                            in their charter and their eliminationist rhetoric in Article 7 as well as eliminationist rhetoric in general - that still is not enough for you. Okie Dokie.. Stick your head in the sand but everyone else can see what Hamas stands for.

                            I don't think a typical Arab would accept this part of your argument, nor could I blame him.

                            Great don't blame him. Frankly, that's fine. History is history and the Jews are indigenous to Israel. Everyone knows that. Just because they choose to ignore it doesn't mean they are right.

                            I am pretty satisfied with the historical record regarding Jews and Israel.

                            As I think of it, some day a diabolically clever Palestinian or Arab will come along, and he'll come up with a way to destroy Israel, one that cannot really be defended against. Is there some argument that might be made to this person to convince him that he should not go through with his plan?

                            Well you can argue a lot of ways as to why he/she should not go through with it, from the rightness of Jews to legitimate self rule in their historic homeland to a simple human rights argument. BUT... really, living in fear of this is ridiculous. Israel simply needs to be strong enough to defend it.

                            Do you think that's something worth worrying about?

                            No, not really.

                            Maybe you think that God will provide for you, or something like that, but I think the best defense is not to be offensive.

                            G-d helps those that helps themselves... that is what I believe in general. And I am glad you think what you do, but, I disagree. I think there is a lot to be said for an aggressive defense.

                            Israel, certainly, and America to a broad degree, have failed in that.

                            I don't think that bodes well for the future of either.

                            I don't think the near future bodes well for anyone at this point. Arab and Jew alike. We are all human, and right now we are not on the bright and shiny path to success as a race.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 09:37:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Building hospitals and schools. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            downsouth

                            That's the main thing Hamas has stood for for in Palestine.

                            But I forget -- you don't care what Arabs or Palestinians think.

                            You think racially a lot, don't you? "Jews are indigenous to ...," "Jews have a right to ...," etc. Do you think that's a healthy way to think, that a society based on such notions is likely to be a just society for its members? Isn't it better to recognize rights and obligations for individuals rather than for races or other groups?

                            Do you think Palestinians have the same right to "be strong enough" to defend themselves as Israel has?

                          •  Blowing up hospitals, schools.... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, volleyboy1, Paul in Berkeley

                            ....cafes and buses is what Hamas has stood for in Israel.

                          •  Sounds a lot like IDF's attack on Gaza (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ProbStat

                            Both sides use terror as a weapon.

                            Plutocracy too long tolerated leaves democracy on the auction block, subject to the highest bidder ~ Bill Moyers

                            by Lefty Coaster on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 10:06:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My concern is for Peace (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber
                            Building hospitals and schools. That's the main thing Hamas has stood for for in Palestine

                            Don't forget rooting out corruption and Palestinian Pride. They also tout that. However, the are still a bunch of xenophobic, racist killers. That is pretty much how I and others in the West see them, and they really make no bones about that.

                            Israel stands for the liberation and freedom of the Jewish People. They stand for an end to 2,000 + years of persecution.

                            But I don't forget you don't give a rats ass what Jews think.

                            You think racially a lot, don't you?

                            Actually I don't but I can see that you do.

                            Jews are indigenous to ...," "Jews have a right to ...," etc. Do you think that's a healthy way to think, that a society based on such notions is likely to be a just society for its members?

                            Funny, for all your criticsm I see you doing exactly what you accuse me of. You think only in terms of Arab and Palestinian rights. Odd that you would criticize me for thinking in terms of Jewish rights. Or one might say hypocritical of you. However, here is the difference between you and I.

                            I believe in the rights of Palestinians to a homeland in the designated Palestinian mandate. I believe that both Jews and Palestinians should have their very legitimate rights of self deternmination. I believe and support President Obama's vision for the Middle East. You on the other hand only support one side's rights but not the other. Yet you fault me for really what are your projections.  Everyone but the most foolish can't see.

                            Isn't it better to recognize rights and obligations for individuals rather than for races or other groups?

                            You ask this but yet you deny the Jewish people their legitimate right to self-determination. Why don't you take your own advice. You know that I believe in the creation of a Palestinian State. Why do you deny the Jews that same right?

                            Do you think Palestinians have the same right to "be strong enough" to defend themselves as Israel has?

                            I believe the Palestinians have a right to live in safety and security in their own nation called Palestine. They will have nothing to fear from Israel once they accept that Israel has a right to exist as the National State and Homeland of the Jewish people.

                            Two Peoples / Two States. It's the only fair solution.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 10:50:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'd call the police ... (0+ / 0-)

                            ... if I saw an African American stealing a car.

                            Does that mean I don't believe that African Americans should be allowed to drive?

                            The Jewish People have the right to act in their collective interest, including self-determination. They do not have the right to take land and resources belonging to other individuals in order to achieve self-determination. But this is exactly what they have done.

                            I don't deny the Jewish People their legitimate right to self-determination; I think it's a fine idea. But your mumbo jumbo about having the right to reclaim land that your ancestors lived on long ago is really stupid and at some levels racist.

                            Two Peoples / Two States. It's the only fair solution.

                            A pretty clear sign of bullshit is the claim that there is only one fair option. And you're spouting bullshit here, and not being very imaginative.
        •  Wow. (11+ / 1-)

          Chalk down another P 'advocate' who just really, really hates Jews.

          Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

          by MBNYC on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:52:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well Yossi Sarid has an interesting take on that (11+ / 0-)

      Here is an interesting Op-Ed about Fayyad:

      Why Salam Fayyad is Israel's public enemy number one

      With wise counsel shall Fayyad wage his war against us: He is building the Palestinian state from its foundations, stone by stone. His security forces are imposing law and order, suppressing terror, weakening Hamas. Monies sent to the Palestinian Authority no longer get lost on their way to their destination. Donors trust him because they see the results of their contributions.

      Fayyad is gradually undermining and invalidating Israel's traditional arguments: He has brought security, but there is still no peace. He meets PA President Mahmoud Abbas' extremism with moderation. Dangerous he is: He will kill us with moderation.

      And now he is casting an eye at Jerusalem, too; his scheming knows no bounds or fences. After mapping Israeli neglect precisely, he leaped into no man's land. If Israel will not build and renovate the schools in East Jerusalem, then he will step in to fill the vacuum. If Israel neglects the roads and sidewalks despite repeated complaints, he orders them repaired and paved.

      A sarcastic look at how Fayyad really is a stumbling block to the Israeli Right.

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 10:46:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  When will the West ever learn (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GoGoGoEverton

    that they may has well burn the money rather than send it to the MIddle East.

    All of the countries and people need to figure out how to work things out without the West, their money and their influence.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 10:47:10 AM PDT

  •  this doesn't surprise me (4+ / 0-)

    Some friends in Israel were waiting for this, and think they were just looking for any excuse. if it wasn't about Fayyad, it would be about something else. You had the headline right -- sometimes, they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    Life is a shipwreck. But we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats. — Voltaire

    by agrenadier on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:10:36 AM PDT

  •  i posted this... (10+ / 0-)

    a few weeks ago - seems timely here:

    assaf... (1+ / 0-)
    i don't know where to post this, and i apologize that it is slightly off-topic, but i figure you might be able to address this.

    according to the j post, salam fayyad is favoured by the palestinian people as new head of the unity government by a large margin, but apparently he has been ruled out as leader by fatah, any insight on why?

    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

    by canadian gal on Wed May 25, 2011 at 04:11:53 PM EDT

    what's interesting is how many conflicting stories are being thrown out... but it seems obvious that the palestinian people have made their choice clear.

    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

    by canadian gal on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:15:43 AM PDT

    •  Well I am not sure cg... Fayyad is certainly the (8+ / 0-)

      rep. from Fateh. However, in polls I have seen, he does not enjoy majority support. At the same time neither does Hamas. One issue I have with September is that there is no clear cut government. For instance, when Israel won it's independence everyone knew that it was going to Ben-Gurion and his group calling that shots in the government rather than Begin and his group. This is the problem that people in the U.N. will face. Now the U.N. is going to vote for Statehood (should the paperwork be filed) BUT... then what.

      Perhaps it would have been better to have a government first then put the State work into motion. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but, I think it would help in securing Western Funding for the new government and that funding is needed.

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:27:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  if you take a look... (8+ / 0-)

        at the first link:

        Over half of the respondents (53%) said they saw Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad as the best candidate for premier of a unity government with Hamas. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh received only 14% support.

        but the next article details that its fatah's objection to fayyad not hamas. it's pretty confusing really.

        "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

        by canadian gal on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:33:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  An opinion poll (7+ / 0-)

          doesn't grant any politician legitimacy. The Palestinian people can make their make their choices clear only in elections. Everything else is commentary.

          If the people one day wish to live / destiny cannot but respond / And the night cannot but disappear / and the bonds cannot but break. -- Abu'l-Qasim al-Shabbi

          by unspeakable on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:27:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  agreed.... (5+ / 0-)

            i think the question is who makes it on to the poll though no? or rather in the interim who will be named premier.

            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

            by canadian gal on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:01:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If they want a national unity (6+ / 0-)

              government until elections can be held, then Fateh and Hamas need to a pick a candidate they both can agree on. Fayyad, whose government has persecuted Hamas members in the West Bank, is unacceptable to the latter, much the same way that Haniyeh would be unacceptable to Fateh as PM.

              The obvious course forward is to pick someone who isn't tainted by the political divisions of the last four years. Then if elections happen and if whoever Fayyad gets in bed with wins, he can be PM to his heart's content.

              The problem is that the "international donors" get to decide who is and isn't a legitimate Palestinian leader, and everyone who isn't Salam Fayyad is unacceptable. This has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the choice of the Palestinian people.

              If the people one day wish to live / destiny cannot but respond / And the night cannot but disappear / and the bonds cannot but break. -- Abu'l-Qasim al-Shabbi

              by unspeakable on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:23:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Just curious (10+ / 0-)

    Fatah and Hamas must agree on the government.  Fatah says Fayyad should head it.  Hamas says he shouldn't.

    Why blame Hamas solely, instead of Hamas and Fatah equally?  

    "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

    by weasel on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:31:09 AM PDT

    •  I thought of that..... It's a good question. (6+ / 0-)

      I blame Hamas here because Fayyad has already been working for the goal of Palestinian Statehood and creating leadership, and financial institutions that can take the Palestinian polity into the community of Nations.

      Fayyad is already there and working for the goal, I believe Hamas is being obstructionist in this case. THOUGH, one can make the case that this is no surprise as Fayyad has been highly critical of Hamas and actively works against them in the West Bank.  

      I think in this case Hamas is in the wrong for the future of peace in the region. But I would say your question is legitimate.

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:37:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If Fayyad is not wanted by either side, (0+ / 0-)

      who, then, are the other candidates?

      •  Fayyad is wanted - by Fateh (5+ / 0-)

        read the diary.

        He is not wanted by Hamas. They are putting lists together now. There won't be elections until next year. This is just for the interim government.

        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 01:29:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I read the diary, but I also read Canadian (0+ / 0-)

          Gal's post with link showing Fatah did not put Fayyad on their nomination list.  I would like to know who IS on that list and who is on Hamas' list. It's not a complicated question.

          •  Errr.... you apparently missed this article from (4+ / 0-)

            Yesterday.

            Here let me repost fromMaan Newss:

            Fatah's central committee selected Fayyad, who currently leads the Palestinian Authority, as the party's candidate to head an interim government of independents, a senior party official told AFP.

            Or this...

            The Hamas militant group on Sunday rejected the rival Fatah movement's nominee for prime minister, complicating plans to unify the dueling governments in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and jeopardizing international aid for the Palestinians.

            Hamas' opposition to Salam Fayyad's nomination marked a key setback in the reconciliation process, which aims to form a caretaker government until elections are held next year. Since the rival factions announced their reconciliation pact last month, aiming to end a four-year rift, they appear to have made little progress in implementing the program.

            Christy, why are you having a hard time with current news but prefer to accept a post from a month ago.

            Again, Fatah nominated Fayyad, and Hamas hasn't done anything yet. READ THE DIARY and it's linked stories.

            Why is this so difficult.

            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:34:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  volley... (5+ / 0-)

              i think its pretty clear that there are conflicting messages coming out of all camps, and that its not quite as straightforward as to what is happening here.

              "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

              by canadian gal on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:36:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  cg... You may be right... BUT, this is being (5+ / 0-)

                reported by both Maan and Haaretz. I mean this is from yesterdays news.

                My guess is that the Western international community told Fateh straight up that: no Fayyad = no money (and/or no support). But that is just a guess.

                Honestly, I am not seeing what you and Christy are saying here.

                Help me understand how what Ma'an and Haaretz are saying is not the Truth.

                DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 02:48:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i'm not saying that.... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mets102, Corwin Weber, volleyboy1

                  it is or isn't accurate... rather with all the conflicting information coming out of this story, its hard to tell what is really going on.

                  see i think its more likely the west said haniyeh = no money rather than what you figure. what's clear is that there is a lot of scrambling go on and i think obama is involved somehow.

                  but i guess the larger point is that all of this is conjecture right now, including of course all the articles cited in the diary and comments.

                  "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                  by canadian gal on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 05:58:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  btw... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mets102, Corwin Weber, volleyboy1

                  having just read through more of the comments... i probably won't be back to respond if you do, apologies.

                  "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                  by canadian gal on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 06:14:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Let's see. PA nominates Fayyad, then PA takes (0+ / 0-)

                  Fayyad out of nomination then, after Hamas objects to him, Fayyad is back in nomination. I believe that is the correct chronology. There is, I think, not a particular and single truth here.

                  There are several longstanding disputes in play in this matter. And then there is this, by a candidate in  a difficult flux. Not the best timing for this, especially when the candidate thus supported is immediately eliminated for excess age.

  •  Who said that? (4+ / 0-)
    The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    It's almost comical how they try to prove the old truism still relevant.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:46:01 AM PDT

  •  Hamas has been consistent since late April in (10+ / 0-)

    stating that a condition for reconciliation with Fatah and the formation of a unity government was that Fayyad not be PM. Not sure what Fatah is playing at here...

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:58:28 AM PDT

    •  Probably playing at realistically getting a State, (4+ / 0-)

      funding their government and winning overwhelming E.U. support to counter the lack of American support. They know that Hamas is a "poison pill" to the people that can actually really help them get a State.

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:06:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fayyad could just as easily be Finance Minister, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elliott, Terra Mystica

        which would likely assuage some of the international concerns while still allowing for a different PM for the transitional / unity government. Fatah leadership have known since late April (prior to the Egyptian-mediated reconciliation) that Hamas would steadfastly oppose Fayyad as PM.

        Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

        by angry marmot on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:34:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But Fateh leadership also knows that (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102, JayinPortland, Corwin Weber

          Fayyad has been leading the way here. He has been the architect of all that has been transpiring to help the Palestinians gain statehood. Why should Hamas, a failing political movement, be so demanding on this point, to the point that it will torch any realistic hope of Statehood?

          Tell me practically, at this moment who is more fit for the job? Unity is supposed to be happening NOW. The whole U.N. thing is coming in September. Do you really think Hamas can handle that?  

          DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

          by volleyboy1 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:58:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      angry marmot

      the subject matter of this article has something to do with it.  I have heard the name of he who was chucked out of Fatah a few times in the I papers in the last few weeks. He seems by the article to have some sort of base in Gaza, and chucking somebody with a base out of the party is serious business.

      What I am wondering if what we are seeing in the diaried articles, Can Gal's post, and this article is in fact the wild infighting we might expect in a group which for the first time is really trying to put together a unity government which involves battling out various inside the group issues, and the survivor of it gets to form the allegedly neutral ministerial pre election government, in anticipation of their winning the subsequent election. Neither side has done an election since 2006 or so, and are of substantially different orientations, one political and nationalistic and one both religious and social project minded, in a much more vocal tradition than those of pols in the USA.

  •  Reccing the dairy for the discussion. (9+ / 0-)

    Good starting point, though the title, not intentionally I think, harkens to an unpleasant meme that gets repeated without the slightest hint of irony by others.

    We all know that the same thing could be said for the, certainly the current, Israeli government.

    I'd like to see elections before there is a final Unity Government for the Palestinians.  

  •  One of the things we have to remember (6+ / 0-)

    is that even as the peace talks have spluttered along, there has been a knock down drag out battle between PA and Hamas which has continued since some time before the 2006 elections and is still going on, for which PA has, according to the Palestine Papers, gotten various help and assistance from the then Israeli government(s).  According to the statements in JP and Ha'aretz, the reasons stated for rejection included Fayyad miring the Palestinians in debt, and his participation at various levels in this conflict, as a result of which Hamas personnel have not fared well.

    We do have to remember these things, as well as the neat' international' bio when considering whether Fayyad can reasonably be considered a neutral ministerial person, as the formulary for the new government in the unity agreement requires. Fayyad may not be a formal Fatah member, but that alone does not make him a neutral ministerial person. And  do not forget Canadian Gal's reminder that before this week, Fatah had also withdrawn Fayyad's name as a nominee.

    So whatever is going on here is not a simple act. We just are missing all the middle acts of this play, one in which it is possible that Israel is part of the stage dressing but not part of the drama which may be rooted in the internal history of the two movements, something which Kossacks in general have not followed very closely but which are possibly hugely meaningful to the participants.

  •  New Palestinian gov't to be finalized 21 June (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, downsouth

    AFP via Al-Ahram, Abbas, Hamas chief to finalise govt on 21 June: Fatah

    Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas will meet Hamas chief Khaled Meshaal in Cairo on 21 June to finalise a new government put together by the two factions, a top official of his Fatah movement said Tuesday.

    "Today during the talks between the Fatah and Hamas delegations, a meeting was scheduled for next Tuesday between President Abbas and Meshaal to finalise the formation of the new government," said Azzam al-Ahmad, who heads the Fatah delegation at the talks.

    "They also decided that this meeting will be the last to finalise the issue of the government," he told AFP.

    Al-Ahram also has a brief overview of today's second-round talks re. reconciliation (and sorting out the PM of the transitional gov't) here

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:24:06 AM PDT

    •  Well that is the goal... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mets102, JNEREBEL, Corwin Weber

      Hopefully they can work it out.

      According to Maan News, The European Union weighed in yesterday saying that while it supported unity it also said there HAS TO BE recognition of Israel and acceptance of past accords:

      GAZA CITY (AFP) - The European Union supports Palestinian unity, but a new government must recognize Israel and accept past accords, European parliament president Jerzy Buzek said Monday.

      As for September, Germany just had this to say:

      Palestinian efforts to seek United Nations recognition of their state are counter-productive, German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said Tuesday.

      While Germany supports the two-state solution and the right of the Palestinian people to build their own state, "the German government believes unilateral steps could be counter productive," he told reporters in Ramallah.

      "We think negotiations are the right way," he said.

      And Italy (from the JPost), had this:

      Making peace, the Italian prime minister said, "requires joint initiative, and consequently requires negotiations." It would be appropriate, he added, "for the Palestinian government to recognize the State of Israel, to acknowledge previous agreements and to undertake the project of rejecting violence."

      Of unilateral recognition, he added, "I don't think that this in any way would be able to contribute to peace."

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 09:48:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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