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Though still curiously acceptable in some corners, the Middle East-focused site Mondoweiss has graduated from mere Jew-counting to front-page publishing of Holocaust deniers. In his June 23rd screed, Atzmon and Jewish identity, site proprietor Philip Weiss published part of an interview he granted to Atzmon for Atzmon's own site.  While Mondofront will likely still have its same supporters here after the Atzmon piece, I believe it's clearer than ever that while Mondofront has plenty of readers who likely do not subscribe to some of the hatemongering that has become a hallmark of the site, it has rapidly become an unfortunate hate site with--at best--a questionable place in the progressive sphere.

After the fleur-de-Kos, we'll look at Mondo's increasing relationship with Holocaust deniers Jeffrey Blankfort and Gilad Atzmon, as well as the Jew-counting that has become a hallmark of Mondofront, and the Jew-washing that has effectively allowed them to escape much consequence for the noxious affiliations.

Mondofront and Holocaust Deniers

One of the more classic anti-Semitic tropes is denial of the Nazi Holocaust that resulted in the murder of some twelve million people, about half of whom were Jewish.  Whether explaining the deaths away as the result of typhus, casualties of war, or numerical fabrication, Holocaust denial (often under the guise of "historical revisionism") has become en vogue for those with an agenda of anti-Semitism.  Holocaust denial can range from full denial that there were any death camps or gas chambers to denial of some of the more odious facts of the period.

One party engaged in the act of Holocaust denial is Jeffrey Blankfort.  Blankfort, who remarked, "I do not believe there was any official Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews because, had there been, there would not have been close to a million left alive," is a journalist and activist who has front-page pieces at Mondofront.  Blankfort, who was most recently seen on Mondofront complaining about Jewish money in political campaigns, also believes that Zionism is to blame for whatever aspects of the Holocaust he is willing to accept as fact:

Zionism and the writings and preachings of zionists served as an impetus to the destruction of European Jewry by the 3rd Reich. After all, both Hitler and Eichmann read Herzl who wrote that Jews could not live among non-Jews without creating anti-semitism (which made it, therefore, a Jewish creation, no?) and you had German Zionists welcoming the Nuremberg Laws because, as Rabbi Joachim Prinz put it, “German Jews would no longer be able to hide in the woodwork.”

It would seem odd that a site like Mondo, which claims to be "devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish perspective" would welcome the writings of someone as clearly non-progressive as Blankfort. However, it isn't just Blankfort. Just last week, site proprietor Philip Weiss authored a piece promoting an interview between Weiss and Gilad Atzmon on Jewish identity.

By any reasonable measure, Gilad Atzmon is both a Holocaust denier and unabashed anti-Semite.  In his piece, Truth, History, and Integrity: Questioning the Holocaust Religion, Atzmon writes:

If, for instance, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of their Reich (Judenrein - free of Jews), or even dead, as the Zionist narrative insists, how come they marched hundreds of thousands of them back into the Reich at the end of the war?

[...]

I am left puzzled here, if the Nazis ran a death factory in Auschwitz-Birkenau, why would the Jewish prisoners join them at the end of the war? Why didn’t the Jews wait for their Red liberators?

I think that 65 years after the liberation of Auschwitz, we must be entitled to start to ask the necessary questions. We should ask for some conclusive historical evidence and arguments rather than follow a religious narrative that is sustained by political pressure and laws. We should strip the holocaust of its Judeo-centric exceptional status and treat it as an historical chapter that belongs to a certain time and place.

Atzmon starts with the classic Fox News tactic of "just asking questions," and manages to suggest that maybe the Nazis didn't have it out for the Jews, and maybe Auschwitz wasn't a death camp, and that the story of the Holocaust is merely "a religious narrative that is sustained by political pressure and laws." However, Atzmon doesn't stop at Holocaust denial, he goes full Protocols in his "On Anti-Semitism" polemic:

Since America currently enjoys the status of the world's only super power and since all the Jews listed above [Prior to this point in the article, Atzmon did a little Jew-counting, something described in greater detail below. -ED] declare themselves as devoted Zionists, we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people are trying to control the world very seriously. It is beyond doubt that Zionists, the most radical, racist and nationalistic Jews around, have already managed to turn America into an Israeli mission force. The world's number one super power is there to support the Jewish state's wealth and security matters. The one-sided pro-Zionist take on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the American veto against every 'anti-Israeli' UN resolution, the war against Iraq and now the militant intentions against Syria, all prove beyond doubt that it is Zionist interests that America is serving. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at least. Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration of their state's affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.

(emphasis added)

Atzmon goes on to delve into the centuries-old "Jew as Christ-killer" libel:

I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew. But then two questions should be asked:

1. How is it that people living today feel accountable or chased for a crime committed by their great great great ancestors almost 2,000 years ago? I assume that those Jews who get angry when blamed for killing Jesus are those who identify themselves with Jesus's killers. Those who would commit this murderous act today. Those Jews are called Zionists and they are already advancing into their sixth decade of inhuman crimes against the Palestinian people and the Arab world. Zionism, for those who do not know, is a repetition of the darkest age of the Jewish Biblical era. It isn't that surprising therefore that Zionists have selected the most suicidal chapters in Jewish history (such as Massada and Bar Cochva) and turned them into the pillars of their reborn culture. On the other hand, we must praise the Zionists for being consistent. Zionists claim that the whole of Palestine belongs to the Jews because their Jewish ancestors lived there 2,000 ago. Jews attempting to live on confiscated Palestinian lands nowadays regard themselves as the same Jews who lived in Palestine two millennia ago. This must explain why Zionists are so offended when they are blamed for theactions of Judas. They are offended because they are all Judases. Might I remind the reader that the Judases of today are armed with hundreds of nuclear weapons without being signed to any international control treaty.

2. Why is it that the Jews who repeatedly demand that the Christian world should apologise for its involvement in previous persecutions, have never thought that it is about time that they apologised for killing Jesus? I wouldn't ask the Italians to apologise on behalf of the Romans for their part in Christ's killing simply because Italians do not feel remotely offended when Romans are blamed for it. I merely suggest that if a Jew feels offended when accused, this reveals attachment to the perpetrators. It might be the right time for the Jewish state to ask for forgiveness on behalf of the Jewish people for their immoral behaviour.

One would think that Atzmon would have no place on a supposedly progressive blog like Weiss'. But if you look at Weiss' history of Jew-counting, the relationship between the two might not be as surprising as you think.

Mondofront and Jew-Counting

I've authored two diaries (here and here) that document Mondofront's practice of Jew-counting. Jew-counting is the practice of identifying and singling-out Jews based on their Jewishness. Nixon famously did this with Fred Malek during the Pentagon Papers episode, and Weiss shamelessly repeats the practice, and does so unapologetically.

Similarly, in his "On Anti-Semitism" polemic, Atzmon lists a bunch of Jews in the Bush administration, and says "[l]et me assure you, in Clinton's administration the situation was even worse. Even though the Jews only make up 2.9 per cent of the country's population, an astounding 56 per cent of Clinton's appointees were Jews. A coincidence? I don't think so."  Atzmon's Jew-counting is right at home on Weiss' site.

Jew-Washing

It was asked by another user that if Philip Weiss wasn't born Jewish, and was instead  "Philip Henry Madison IV, a Southern Baptist, would anyone be giving him the time of day given what his site spews?" Obviously this is a hypothetical question, but I believe the answer to be no. Because Weiss engages in noxious memes like Jew-counting, and features bona fide anti-Semites of Jewish descent like Jeffrey Blankfort and Gilad Atzmon, he cleverly Jew-washes the hate he peddles under the conceit that since the contributors are Jewish, they can't possible be anti-Semitic.  When he combines that with his effective maxim that any accusation of anti-Semitism is necessarily false because he is ostensibly advocating for the Palestinians and thus just a victim of Zionist hasbara or the like, he publishes hate material and hides behind his ethnicity. Unfortunately, there are plenty who would consider this ample cover. I would, however, disagree.

Conclusion

Mondofront poses something of a challenge, because not everything they publish is soaked in the kind of hate that Weiss seems most comfortable dabbling in. While their "Today in Palestine" news series features some silly hyperbole, it is a generally good news aggregator of Palestinian and Israeli news sources. It's worth noting, however, the real value is in the content from non-Mondofront sources. There is also non-bigoted commentary interspersed among the less tolerant pieces. The question is, at what point does the clear indulgence of anti-Semitism outweigh the quality pieces? If Gilad Atzmon, Jeffrey Blankfort, and the like are not enough, if we accept that--despite Mondo's statement that they moderate comments--the reams of hate in the comments section are not reflective of the site itself, how bad does it have to get before Mondo is recognized for the hate site it either has devolved or is devolving into? The answer probably isn't an easy one, and there sure won't be a consensus, but it is a question that merits examination.

Originally posted to Team Shalom on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 06:20 AM PDT.

Also republished by Elders of Zion and HaYishuv.

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Comment Preferences

  •  What site would you recommend (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brecht

    for objective, hate free, reporting of the news in Palestine?  

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 06:32:52 AM PDT

  •  this... (14+ / 0-)

    from your link is just unbelievable...

    Jane Harman's Jewish. There, I just said it. That's why we have the blogosphere. Any intelligent person discussing this story at dinner is going to mention that she's Jewish.

    basically - a journalist's religion is important in discussing the validity of their writing? WTF?

    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

    by canadian gal on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 06:36:13 AM PDT

  •  Um. (16+ / 0-)
    If, for instance, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of their Reich (Judenrein - free of Jews), or even dead, as the Zionist narrative insists, how come they marched hundreds of thousands of them back into the Reich at the end of the war?

    For two reasons: one, these marches back into the Reich were calculated to cause immense casualties among their victims, through starvation and exposure, and two, because in the last months of the Hitler regime, there was an effort to obliterate the physical evidence of the Holocaust.

    None of this is controversial in any way among scholars of the period, by the way.

    As far as the 'Jews killed Christ' fraud is concerned, this is not any longer accepted by any of the major denominations of Christianity. This not only because of the immense damage it did to the Jewish people, but because it is factually false. Under Roman law, which applied in Judea at the time, capital punishment was reserved for the Roman authorities.

    Speaking of which, the 'Jesus was a Palestinian' thing is also false. Jesus was a Jew. Period, and again not controversial. In fact, I think it's offensive to Christians to make the claim.

    What I want to know is why the Nation Institute has this kind of hate speech under their aegis.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 06:42:00 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for this. (15+ / 0-)

    It's long been the case that Atzmon's a toad, but he's being pushed more and more to the periphery as his words and ideas continue to catch up with him.

    Atzmon spun the same, "If there really was a Holocaust, then how come..." on his visit to Aspen public access television, and you can see the other panelists -- all vocal anti-Zionist peace activists -- shrinking from him as if he were a skin disease.

    Yes, Virginia, a site that willingly hosts the crazy rants of an antisemitic Holocaust denier is an antisemitic site.

    That means Mondofront.

    Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

    by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 07:02:12 AM PDT

  •  Three issues: (6+ / 0-)

    First, given the manner in which you frame the narrative in your title ('Mondofront') I suspect that we're unlikely to find much dispassionate evaluation of the propriety of citing materials from Mondoweiss.

    Second, if I'm reading between the lines of the final paragraph correctly ('the real value is in the content from non-Mondofront sources'), then is the suggestion that references posted here on dKos should link to the original sources rather than through secondary links at Mondoweiss?

    Third, I think we need to be extremely cautious to differentiate among the editorial position of a site, the views of individual authors contributing to a site, and the views represented by commentary on a site. There is a real potential here for broadly sweeping accusations of guilt (of antisemitism) by association. I don't really have a vested interest in Mondoweiss (I follow links there very rarely) but I do believe strongly that if we are to develop dKos policy re Point #5 of the letter on antisemitism, we need to err on the side of allowing more content here and discussing the propriety of individual pieces rather than dismissing content out-of-hand on the basis of antisemitism by association.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 07:20:00 AM PDT

  •  Here's an example of a progressive site (11+ / 0-)

    Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

    by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 08:03:52 AM PDT

  •  Great diary Sox (11+ / 0-)

    this shit is disgusting.  Mondofront is a hate site.

  •  Great diary Sox... Along with Atzmom and (12+ / 0-)

    Blankfort, here are some choice comments from posters on this wonderfully moderated blog.

    Here are some choice quotes from this article by Weiss... I guess in this totally moderated blog it is ok to say:

    The other reason is the deep contamination of democrat party politics by Jewish involvement (vb1 emphasis), and of course the outsize influence of money from wall street interests OTOH and jewish contributors on the other (and the two overlap sometimes).
    As you said once, Phil – zionism has made the Jews stupid…
    And it holds the democratic party (including the netroots) in thrall.....

    or

    Home run and I’m not a baseball fan! As the fellow from Harvard said Obama’s homies are Jews, rich and powerful American Jews. The problem is here, not there. Solve the problem here and Palestine can take take care of itself. Gaza boats are not going to solve the problem here. No need to sacrifice any more young Furkins for nothing. In spite of your best hopes, this is not going to be settled peacefully. You will have to choose. Guernica, once again.

    and that is just two of the fine quotes that pepper MondoFront. There are many, many more just in that thread alone. The Atzmom article... EGADS!

    DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

    by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 09:15:57 AM PDT

    •  Indeed, the comments are loaded with bigotry (10+ / 0-)

      to the point that it is the exception, rather than the rule, to find a Mondofront post without hateful comments. But if you read their recent begging for money and take them at their word, both Weiss and Horowitz have been working on the site full-time, around the clock and have done so while making no money in the past few months. It is conceivable that they don't really enforce their comments policy because they don't have the time. Unfortunately, it's also possible that they don't moderate anti-Semitic comments because it would upset some of their most loyal fans who just don't think the kind of examples you gave ought to be "censored."

      Still, there's so much hate being spewed "above the fold," if you will, that we don't even need to go into comments, although that might make an interesting diary in and of itself.

      Unapologetic Obama supporter.

      by Red Sox on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 09:28:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well I would agree with you but just in (10+ / 0-)

        a thread I was reading there one day, Weiss basically said, "Yeah we moderate this blog and have taken down egregious comments" (to paraphrase). The comments I quoted here come from people I have seen post there and on the front page.

        The strangest thing I saw was one time I typed a phrase into google, got the exact same phrase and exact same post on both MondoFront AND Stormfront. Different name but almost exactly the same comment. That was why I started calling it MondoFront.

        The Atzmom article and comments are ridiculous. But that is who Phil wants to play ball with so hey......

        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

        by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 10:00:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What's the phrase? (0+ / 0-)

          Back when I was the token Republican for the now-defunct Bipart Report I researched Richard Poplowski. You may recall he murdered three Pittsburgh cops. He spewed racist crap directed at our President. It was the violent racist rantings of supporters of Sarah Palin that started my journey away from the Republican party.

          As part of my research I waded into the sewer known as StormFront. What I found was the anti-Semitism was of the violent and dangerous kind and was a species of racism of a right-wing white supremacist. What I saw on Mondoweiss.net was completely different. It was progressive, included people of color and included a significant Jewish critique of Zionism. In short, an antithesis of StormFront.

          Here's what Poplowski said on StormFront and note how the right-wing ideology, racism, and anti-Semitism melded together into one toxic stew:

          Common perception seems to be that if there is an abrupt collapse of social order then racial awareness among the white population will rise dramatically. The Jewish media that dictates “pop culture” could no longer elevate the negro, and reality would reveal its nature. Race-mixing would come to a halt overnight. Consumerism and materialism would cease as the people scrounge for the necessities.

          It would make much more sense to keep the population content and therefore apathetic and lethargic than to stir the pot that would at the very least: create a disruption in the agenda, and at the very most: drive the elite from their places of power, which have undoubtedly been sought out and schemed after for decades.

          Fortunately, as of right now, the American populace has yet to be fully racially homogenized, has yet to become even close to disarmed, and still would stand a fighting chance to throw off their chains and ensure a worthwhile existence for their children. It would make more sense, from the perspective of the Zionists, to maintain status quo and continue the drumbeat of miscenegration, continue to sound the horn of liberalism, and continue the march toward a dystrophic society in which they could never be challenged.

          ... Don’t get me wrong. If a total collapse is what it takes to wake our brethren and guarantee future generations of white children walk this continent, if that is what it takes to restore our freedoms and recapture our land: let it begin this very second and not a moment later. Let comfort and convenience be damned, and I will welcome the hardship and embrace the pain secure in the knowledge that our people will rise above and overcome our darkest days.

          I just am beginning to think that the elders of Zion are too smart to start the war. Why would they give us the push we need? Unless greed and audacity have clouded their minds in the final hour, I just cannot see an engineered abrupt collapse scenario. We, the people, are not ripe to be picked from the tree of liberty. Not just yet. If disturbed at this juncture, the seeds of racial purity will fall again on this land and take root. Our enemies know it. They’ve got to.

          I've seen nothing like this on Mondoweiss.net. So, I'm curious what you found. If it's too offensive for public consumption you can send it via private message.

          •  Seriously? (13+ / 0-)

            I think you mean well, but you're going to tell me that you haven't seen a wealth of anti-Semitic hate at Mondofront?

            First, you've got the Holocaust denial of Atzmon and Blankfort, to say nothing of Atzmon's Christ-killers libel. Let's assume you excuse that because they expressed those views elsewhere. You've got Weiss' obsession with Jew-counting, a nakedly anti-Semitic practice. Even if we excuse that, the idea that you can't find the same kind of Stormfront hate on Mondo means that either you have a different definition of the word than most, or you haven't been looking. In this thread alone, Volley provided you with two clear examples.

            Just a quick glance over at Mondo yields a few choice examples:

            Has any Jewish pundit ever, EVER written a column expressing gratitude for the gifts bestowed on Jews by the countries to which Jews have voluntarily migrated (Abraham; Jews in alliance with Muslims/Arabs to Andalusia), fled to escape their own kin (Joseph; later, Russia), been exiled (10,000 Israeli elite, by Nebuchadnezzar), or made deals with the government (Khazar, Poland), or found shelter as well as favorable economic opportunities (Italy, Germany, Russia, US).

            On what date do Jews celebrate a Thanksgiving for all the good things they have been given by the numerous host- countries to which they have VOLUNTARILY migrated, and from whom they have, for the most part, TAKEN far more than they have returned?

            As I say above, the truth about the Israel/Palestine conflict is getting out to the general public. So too the extent to which powerful Jews are controlling government policy in Canada and the US.

            I'll say this again too: Jews should smarten up about the risks they are taking in their blind support of war-mongering Zionists.

            May or may not be a surprise to the Jewish population but many “goyim” refer to NPR as National Jewish Radio. There is some truth to this

            Unapologetic Obama supporter.

            by Red Sox on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 11:11:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So You Have Some Complaints (0+ / 0-)

              Of undue Jewish influence on the Democratic party like many complain here about undue evangelical Christian influence in the Republican party. For myself that's easily explained by the fact that evangelical Christians -- myself excepted -- are conservative and Jews are progressive. Anti-Semitism as found on StormFront is the exclusive provenance of right-wing non-Jews. When you start accusing Jewish progressives of the same to the point of eliding the names of the web sites there should be some pause. Furthermore, sites like Mondoweiss.net disprove the anti-Semitic notion that Jews are lockstep Zionists that have dual loyalties.

              In short, the charges of anti-Semitism are debatable. That's not the case for StormFront and why I want the specific phrase that was common to both and see both quotes in context.

              •  LOL calling Jews "contamination" is not debatable (12+ / 0-)

                it is anti-Semitism.

                Hahaha.. this defense of Mondofront is classic.

                But here is the thing that you completely don't get. Complaining about any ethinc groups "undue influence" is not a progressive value. If you want a totally equal society why point out what ethnic groups do what. Jewish Americans are Americans - who cares what level of influence they have. They influence party politics as Americans.

                Second, the anti-Semitism found on Stormfront is not the exclusive property of the The Right Wing. It is infecting Left Wing discourse as well. Things like "Jewish influence", "Jewish Privilege" and other memes are straight out of the

                The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
                .

                The fact that you would attempt to defend a site that promotes those memes is sad and pathetic.

                By the way, the second quote about Jews controlling Canada is straight up ZOG commentary just moved a few miles north. There is no debate needed. Mondofront is an anti-Semitic site. Period.

                DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 11:58:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Repeat. What's the phrase? (0+ / 0-)

                  I can be convinced. Anti-semitism is real and I've seen people express it. So, please, tell me the phrase and we can bury this thread.

                  •  You've demonstrated amply quite the opposite (11+ / 0-)

                    Your comments show that you cannot be convinced that there is anti-semitism on self-proclaimed progressive websites.  You seem to be laboring under the delusion that anti-semitism is the exclusive province of right-wing rednecks and skinheads wearing plaid shirts with the sleeves cut off, driving battered pickup trucks and drinking shine from a mason jar.  

                    Welcome to the real world, rblinne. Anti-semitism is alive and well on the left, and it's sitting right out there in the open for all to see, at Mondoweiss.  It's peddled day in and day out by Phil Weiss, who tries to provide plausible deniability through Jew-washing.

                    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                    by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 12:10:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's Real Simple to shut me up (0+ / 0-)

                      A very specific claim was made and I stated up front that showing the common phrase was sufficient to make the point. Unless this Google search was just made up which I am beginning to wonder now.

                      •  That's bullshit (9+ / 0-)

                        This diary and many of the comments have provided you with ample evidence to prove that Mondoweiss and its sleazy proprietor regularly traffic in anti-semitism and welcome rabid anti-semites into their midst with open arms.  Your insistence on finding a common phrase between Mondofront and Stormfront is nothing but a pathetic attempt to weasel (heh, who does that word remind me of???) out of the shitty corner you've painted yourself in.

                        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                        by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 12:26:20 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I answered you below... (10+ / 0-)

                        But whether or not you believe that doesn't matter. The thing is that we have amply demonstrated anti-Semitism at MondoFront. If you think saying that the Democratic Party is contaminated by Jewish involvement is not anti-Semitism then you have no fucking idea what anti-Semitism is.

                        We posted a number of links. That you can't, won't or don't want to acknowledge that, just shows how low you are willing to go to defend the indefensible.

                        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                        by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 12:41:05 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  So unless.... (5+ / 0-)

                        .....Mondoweiss uses the exact same phrasing as Stormfront, it's not antisemitic?

                        Yeah, that'll fly.

                        •  Sigh (0+ / 0-)

                          No I'm not saying that. Volleyboy justified his slur by saying the two sites used the exact same language. But, he is unwilling and/or unable to provide proof he actually did the alleged Google search. What's soured me on you all is statements like Volleyboy's that are repeatedly factually vacuous.

                          I grant anti-Semitism is real and prevalent in our culture. On StormFront it is the kind of anti-Semitism that results in people getting murdered. I would be quicker to condemn anti-Semitism on the left if I hadn't been burned so often.

                          For example, I quickly condemned the landing of the first flotilla when I was told (and I believed at first) was people chanting genocide in Arabic. When I was pointed to the specific battle I felt betrayed. This battle was the one the established the precedent in Islam to preserve the life of "people of the Book", allow them to worship as they pleased and tax them to support the military they weren't allowed to participate in. One could argue that this is wrong -- and I do -- but it's NOT genocide.

                          •  OH REALLY NOW? (8+ / 0-)
                            What's soured me on you all is statements like Volleyboy's that are repeatedly factually vacuous.

                            Please show me repeated statements that are factually vacuous. Back your claim up. I explained to you why I could not relate the direct quote. Meteor Blades has been sent it. But since it involves potentially "outing" another Kossak I am not going to do anything more with tell you what I told you below.

                            So back your shit up. Please expose me to the community.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 02:27:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See that was easy (0+ / 0-)

                            Instead of claiming that you had answer my question you answered it. That's one of the reasons I gave you the option of private message. Your discretion has impressed me because it's the easy felicity of charging people that has bothered me. If I was MB I would probably do nothing since handles can easily be replicated and behavior on two third-party sites neither of which are DK proves nothing for people here. Have you contacted law enforcement? If Poplawski's post had been caught earlier three Pittsburgh cops would be coming home to their families tonight.

                          •  It was not a quote like that... (4+ / 0-)

                            there is no need.

                            Anyway, until I hear from the admins. this stays under wraps. But MBNYC just provided some more evidence down below.

                            Either way, there is rampant anti-Semitism at MondoFront and it really is not a good place because of that. The Left needs to step up and take responsibility when members are hateful.

                            Again, just because Jews are making these claims means nothing. In this country there are a few people that will speak in terms of those who would oppress them and support those meme's. Look in the African American Community at people like Alan Keyes and the like. Well, we have that in Jewish community as well and MondoFront is the place for it (though there are exceptions).

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 06:13:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have limited options (0+ / 0-)

                            First note my reply to MBNYC. That's what I was looking for.

                            My participation there is to try to be one of the "exceptions". There are a lot of young people on the left that have legitimate concerns about the Palestinians and if Mondoweiss.net is the only place they are welcome because we scared them off here then we just radicalized them. That's not good for either side of the debate. I don't really have an answer to this other than to try to turn down the temperature. If it means I get called an anti-Semite or an anti-Semite enabler oh well I can take it.

                            We are really not that much different. You want to clean up the left. I want to clean up the Christian community. I defend those you consider indefensible because I believe we deserve the term anti-Semite more than the Jewish anti-Zionists.

                          •  Which battle? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber

                            So rather than just kill the Jews (or Christians), Islam treats them as second class in virtually all matters.  Nice!!

                          •  But hey at least it wasn't Genocide (/snark) (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zemblan, Corwin Weber, Mets102

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 02:40:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Snicker if you want (0+ / 0-)

                            But when people say chanting Khaybar means genocide and was told in no uncertain terms to condemn it immediately. So, I did because there is no justification for genocide. I was told this:

                            Finally, if you do advocate against oppression, why do you give a pass to any minority when they chant for genocide, which is what Khaybar is.

                            Then I found out the Battle of Khaybar set up this:

                            Muhammad met with Ibn Abi al-Huqaiq, al-Katibah and al-Watih to discuss the terms of surrender. As part of the agreement, the Jews of Khaybar were to evacuate the area, and surrender their wealth. The Muslims, would cease warfare, and not hurt any of the Jews. After the agreement some Jews approached Muhammad, with a request to continue to cultivate their fine orchards, and remain in the oasis. In return, they would give one-half of their produce to the Muslims.

                            Now I'm asked again to condemn immediately people who we're being allegedly anti-Semitic. I changed parties and political ideology over violent racism and anti-Semitism in the Republican party. I should be an easy sell. I trusted any black person that cried racism and any Jew that cried anti-Semitism because, hey, they should know.  But when things get overstated you lose people like me and now I fact check everything and check for context. Instead of being more careful you come and attack me. But, I'm a big boy and I really don't much care what you think of me anyway.  I take the abuse because I have a bigger concern than my widdle feelings being hurt. The problem is this is a site that should be a support for our President. The behavior I see here undermines his ability to try to thread the needle and craft a fair two-state solution for both the Israeli and Palestinian people. Believe it or not I share your goals. (I am skeptical of a two-state solution but that doesn't mean I oppose it.) Rather I just abhor your counter-productive tactics.

                          •  The people who chant it... (0+ / 0-)

                            know just what they mean.

                            Why do they chant?  Why do they link it to Jerusalem?  Why do they say that Jews will meet the same fate?  For love?

                            How sad that you try to rationalize their expressed hatred and their call for genocide!

                          •  Apology to Volleyboy (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Brecht

                            Citizen53 (and JonathanInTelaviv) is the source of much of the misinformation that soured me on Team Shalom. My quote above is from him/her. I apologize for conflating his comments with yours and falsely accused of lying. I'm sorry.

                          •  Looking at how you choose to see things... (0+ / 0-)

                            you were already predisposed.  Why not just cop to your bias rather than blaming others.

                            You try to come off so smart, yet seem to lack a basic understanding.

                            The proof is your interpretation of Khaybar.

                            So why do they chant?  For love?  What do they want the Jews to remember?  How they are esteemed people of the book?

                          •  what do you think it means... (5+ / 0-)

                            that you have just again as so many others in the community.... implicated team shalom into disagreements with two posters who are neither members?

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 05:27:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It means (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            canadian gal, Brecht

                            I need to apologize to them. I'm sorry.

                          •  Ok, well just fyi neither citizen or Jonathan (5+ / 0-)

                            are members of Team Shalom.

                            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 06:16:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Canadian Gal Corrected My Error Upthread (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Brecht

                            Thanks for the correction. The main reason I've appeared to take the "side" of the examples in the diary is I hate name calling and imputing motives. I especially hate it when I do it. As a rule I don't try to speculate why people say things. When I personally fail at this I try to quickly apologize especially if I -- as was in this case -- wrongly impute the words of one person to another. Since anti-Semite and racist are such emotionally loaded terms I prefer it to remain for the worst offenders so that they don't lose their meaning. That doesn't mean I don't strongly object to the content documented in the diary.

                            I skip over what Blankfort posts because what he writes makes me cringe. I repudiate without reservation anyone who invokes the Christ killer crap. I highly recommend the documentary Constantine's Sword that shows Christian anti-Semitism greatly pre-dated the Third Reich. (It's also behind my thinking of combining the power of the state with any religion -- especially my own -- as the dumbest idea ever to come from the human mind because of the great evil it creates.)  As for Atzmon I think it was a bit unfair to impute his thinking because he interviewed Phil. I do find it greatly embarrassing that Atzmon was used for fundraising for the flotilla. Thank God almost no one showed up.

                            http://adamholland.blogspot.com/...

                          •  I'd like to see this quote of "disinformation"... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zemblan

                            you attributed to me.

                  •  Repeat (8+ / 0-)

                    Are you suggesting that Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic? Maybe the Boy Scouts should offer a badge in it?

                    Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

                    by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 12:37:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Not really (11+ / 0-)
                In short, the charges of anti-Semitism are debatable

                Only if you're so desperate to excuse Mondofront from the voluminous Jew-hatred that is a hallmark of that site that you'll grasp at any scenario, no matter how far-fetched, to ignore the glaring presence of anti-Semitism at that site.

                I understand the desire to explain it away--no one on the liberal end of the political spectrum wants to believe that their ideological bedfellows are bigots, and truth be told, I would much rather have never seen the bilious hate from Mondo. Moreover, I appreciate you making a thoughtful defense of the site, rather than the usual vacuous "they call us anti-Semites just for criticizing Israel" lie that is so pervasive here. But in the case of Mondofront, the volume of evidence is such that it's impossible to credibly argue that there is no anti-Semitism in both their stories and their comments.

                Here's another example for you:

                The reason for this display is because the UK Amb to Israel, Matthew Gould is Jewish and probably a raving zionist.

                As I have pointed out numerous times…..Jews should not be appointed to represent the US or UK or any other country in Israel or in any Israel dealings between Israel and the country they ‘are suppose to represent”.
                Iranians should not appointed to Iran, Egyptians not be appointed to Egypt and etc.,etc..
                It plain does not work and is fraught with disaster, spying,undue influence and all manner of intrigue.

                A representative from any country to another should have no allegiances, ethnic or religious, excessive fondness for or partiality to the country of appointment.
                This is such a fricking no brainer that you know this practice just shows how devoid our government is of any regard for conflicts of interest and concern for American security and diplomacy and and interest.

                Unapologetic Obama supporter.

                by Red Sox on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 11:59:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Are you saying (8+ / 0-)

                you don't find Holocaust denial to be antisemitic?

                Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

                by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 12:36:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm assuming this is addressed to me (0+ / 0-)

                  The threading is confusing. Yes Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic.  The question is whether denying the Holocaust as a sui generis Jewish event is denying the Holocaust itself.  I grant most of the time I would say the argument is used as an excuse to hide Holocaust denial. But I can see there can be exceptions. Thus my hesitantly.

                  What I find personally frustrating about the I/P debate is the position that both the Jews and the Palestinians are oppressed peoples is generally not allowed. If you aren't into the Israel Lobby conspiracy you're not really pro-P. If you don't like calling pro-P people anti-Semites you're not pro-I. Any of us trying to cut out a middle-of-the-road position get what any other middle-of-the-road people get, run over.

                  •  No matter how finely you split those hairs..... (4+ / 0-)

                    ....they're still hairs.

                  •  I don't think that's true at all (8+ / 0-)

                    I think most people here would agree that the Jews and Palestinians both have a long record of being oppressed. What I find bemusing is the idea that the kind of explaining away you've done of the clear and irrefutable Jew-hatred on Mondo is somehow "middle of the road."

                    Unapologetic Obama supporter.

                    by Red Sox on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 07:23:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Mondo is NOT Middle of the Road (0+ / 0-)

                      There really is no home for moderate pro-P folk. Moderate pro-I folk can live here. Immoderate pro-P folk can live on Mondo. Immoderate pro-I can live on Red State.

                      •  Well see... no. Moderate Pro-P can live here (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mets102, zemblan, Corwin Weber, JNEREBEL

                        and do.

                        But rblinne, I have read your posts at MondoFront and they are different than here. Either way, no big deal.

                        Look, Pro-P advocacy is fine. It just doesn't have to make use of anti-Semitic meme's and/or rhetoric. I mean you are really stretching the rhetoric here when you say:

                        If you don't like calling pro-P people anti-Semites you're not pro-I. Any of us trying to cut out a middle-of-the-road position get what any other middle-of-the-road people get, run over.

                        I dispute that statement about the Pro-P crowd, I see those here that are Pro-P that disagree with the whole Lobby thing. But I can't speak to the Pro-P movement because I am not Pro-P.

                        As for as the Pro-I people.. that is a ridiculous claim regarding anti-Semitism. There are many here I disagree with strongly that I would not call anti-Semitic. It is not calling Pro-P here anti-Semitic unless they use anti-Semitic memes

                        Middle of the road people are generally welcome in my book, but, if they take those positions they are going to have to play defense. I have read your diaries and comments, you are not middle of the road on this issue. I understand you are swinging against long held beliefs but in my opinion you swing way too far to one side to be middle of the road.

                        Middle of the road is someone who understands fully both sides and advocates for a peaceful solution for both. Not only do they advocate for it but, they represent it. And not just here... anywhere. The closest I have seen to middle of the road is The Troubador or angry Marmot, and a few others. They are welcome on both sides and fight for both sides.

                        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

                        by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 07:57:13 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Middle of the Road Doesn't Mean Mushy (0+ / 0-)
                          Middle of the road people are generally welcome in my book, but, if they take those positions they are going to have to play defense. I have read your diaries and comments, you are not middle of the road on this issue. I understand you are swinging against long held beliefs but in my opinion you swing way too far to one side to be middle of the road.

                          I'm more than happy playing defense. What I mean by middle of the road is not a non-advocacy position. Rather it's a characteristic that I appreciate on the left of the ability of advocates of very different positions being able to dialog and disagree without excess rancor. I never EVER got that on the right and I like it. So, yes you'll get an emotional reaction out of me when you are trying to "clean house".

                          What you don't see is how I try to advocate for American Jews amongst my evangelical friends. In short, I'm tying to convert their love for Israel into love for their Jewish neighbors.  Some how I have this inordinate obsession with lost causes.

                        •  Think of it this way (0+ / 0-)

                          If my being a very strong pro-P person feel like I'm middle-of-the-road on Mondo doesn't it make your point?

                          I'm not really the best example of what I am talking about since I have a very thick skin and will debate in hostile environments just for "fun". Most people are not like that. There is a large contingent of young people on the left who are pro-P and much less combative than me and I just don't see a place for them.

                          The people here should ask why aren't there more moderate pro-P people here (and you're right I don't count) and Mondo should ask why there are not moderate pro-I people there. Properly answering those questions will fix issues such as the anti-Semitism problem by way of side effect.

                  •  oh, come on! (6+ / 0-)
                    The question is whether denying the Holocaust as a sui generis Jewish event is denying the Holocaust itself.

                    A fine little stump speech, maybe, but a red herring.

                    Atzmon thinks there was no Nazi plot to exterminate the Jews.

                    Are you going to continue to evade this point through a series of ever-thinner dodges?

                    Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

                    by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 08:15:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Gilad Atzmon (10+ / 0-)

            is an antisemite who likes to package his antisemitism - including Holocaust denial - as if it were just another form of anti-Zionist discourse. His antisemitism is not well-hidden, and most anti-Zionists want nothing to do with him because his antisemitism is so blatant.

            So either Weiss had no idea who he was interviewing, or he didn't mind presenting a Holocaust denier as if he were a legitimate scholar.

            Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

            by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 11:29:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  NO... I don't need to PM you... it is all here (8+ / 0-)

            First, calling the Democratic Party "contaminated" by Jewish Involvement is worthy of Stormfront.

            Second, telling Americans they need to choose about what to do with Jews ala Guernica.. is worthy of Stormfront.

            Holocaust denial spouted by Atzmom is worthy of Stormfront.

            Saying the Jews are responsible for the Holocaust spouted by Blankfort is worthy of Stormfront.

            I can think of a million more examples

            You pointed to one post at Stormfront and said... "Well I don't see that here at Mondoweiss"... Ok, right. Because Mondofront handles Leftwing anti-Semitism and Stormfront handles Rightwing anti-Semitism, but they both still promote anti-Semitism.

            This is interesting though... you call Mondofront progessive yet is spouts hateful meme's regarding Jews. What exactly is progressive about hating a persons ethnicity?

            The difference is that Mondofront doesn't promote White Supremacism as such, but still hatred is hatred.

            DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 11:32:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Dude. (7+ / 0-)

            You're a fucking republican and you're lecturing Democrats on what is and what is not appropriate, as we understand it?

            What's next, you telling the African-American posters here that Alan fucking Keyes is just misunderstood?

            Fuck that.

            Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

            by MBNYC on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 01:13:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Remember Zannie? (11+ / 0-)

          She's quite prolific over there, as both a front pager and a commenter. She's really got a hang up with Jewish influence. Don't dare call it anti-Semitism, though.

          Unapologetic Obama supporter.

          by Red Sox on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 11:20:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  There are some exceptions. (8+ / 0-)

        Clenchner, who also posts here and is a friend of mine, usually makes solid points. That said, he's one of the most pro-P people I know personally, and they treat him like garbage. Zioturd, I believe is the word.

        Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

        by MBNYC on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 10:30:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is especially 'cute'... (12+ / 0-)

    From Atzmon -

    Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration of their state's affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.

    Not a veiled threat, he's just askin' questions, friend!

    Thanks for the diary, Red Sox.

  •  Great diary! Thanks! n/t (11+ / 0-)

    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

    by JNEREBEL on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 09:44:41 AM PDT

  •  A bit off topic, but for anyone interested... (5+ / 0-)

    I suggest a visit to video archive of The Yale Initiative for the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism

    http://vimeo.com/...

    Good stuff on a rainy day.

  •  I'm always shocked (8+ / 0-)

    by how so many of the self-proclaimed pro-Palestinian commenters here jealously protect their "right" to use obviously anti-semitic sites like Mondosewer as sources.

    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

    by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 12:19:55 PM PDT

  •  I pretty much agree with this (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Red Sox, sofia, canadian gal, Brecht

    without agreeing with all of the rhetoric. Atzmon is a racist and a buffoon, as is Blankfort, and Weiss, who has himself engaged in some very dodgy rhetoric, should have no truck with them. That he does speaks very poorly of him (although to be fair I understand he subsequently claimed not to have known about Atzmon's racism before publishing the interview with him, which is entirely plausible), and to the extent that there has been relatively little pushback against this within the solidarity movement, that speaks poorly about the movement.

    Max Ajl, an American Jewish antizionist, wrote a decent piece about Weiss and Atzmon here. I think his analysis of the underlying tendencies at work here is spot on:

    "Atzmon is latent in Phil's analysis. How? Well, Weiss’s notion of the lobby is at root idealist: Jews wanted to express tribal solidarity; Jews want to defend Israel to defend the tribe; and so on. While elements of this are correct, an explanation rooted in cultural essence begins an inevitable slide into bizarreness very easily."

    He also makes a point that I've made here before:

    "The lack of analysis of the lobby as a combination capitalist institution cum propaganda service creating consent for Israeli policies, along with the lack of recognition of the centrality of Israel to the petro-dollar weapon-dollar system, is intellectually crippling, and when structural analysis is sidelined, you get the precipitous slide into the racist abyss."

    However he also points out the immense service that Mondoweiss is performing in "creating a space for discussion of the construction of Jewish identity in the post-war era", adding that "the bulk of the content is helpful to our work". This is correct imo - certainly I find Mondoweiss indispensable for keeping up with the conflict, especially on the American end. The diary alludes to this at the end - Mondoweiss does publish a lot of very useful stuff, as well as the awful bits. Ideally there would be a site that did all the former without any of the latter but unfortunately I've yet to find it.

    Incidentally Jews Sans Frontieres, a British Jewish antizionist blog, has also had Atzmon's number for years.

    •  well then (10+ / 0-)
      I understand he subsequently claimed not to have known about Atzmon's racism before publishing the interview with him, which is entirely plausible

      Looking forward to seeing Weiss's retraction. I would find it utterly incomprehensible for an editor not to apologize for having promoted a Holocaust denier. Simply silently sweeping it under the rug would be a move worthy of the SWP, who did exactly that.

      Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

      by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 01:53:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If I drop my wristwatch (6+ / 0-)

      into a stinking, shit-filled latrine (remember the scene in Slumdog Millionaire?  I'm talking that kind of latrine), much as I love my wristwatch and the sentimental value that it holds for me, I'm going to go to the store and buy a new wristwatch.

      But hey, that's just me.

      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 02:08:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How could Weiss not be familiar with Atzmom (7+ / 0-)

      As involved as he is? You really think that is plausible?

      DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 02:12:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's Counterpunchitis. (8+ / 0-)

        Instantly presume all accusations of antisemitism are nefarious Zionist lies unless proven otherwise, and then refuse to examine the evidence. It's doing a Cockburn. When Atzmon stepped off into the racism pool in 2005, Counterpunch posted an article defending him, and refused to publish that article's refutation -- even through the refutation was from career anti-Zionists!

        Welcome to Galt's Gulch. You have died of dysentery.

        by zemblan on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 02:16:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I do. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brecht

        I only came across Atzmon quite a long time after I became involved in the issue. And even then, I didn't actually seriously read his stuff - just heard him mentioned here and there, heard he had been accused of antisemitism (ho hum, who hasn't been?), and went about my business. I only properly found out about him through the SWP affair, mentioned above.

        Plus Phil, whatever his other flaws, tends to be quite honest about himself and his motivations, and unusually self-critical. So I'd be inclined to believe him on this. (Plus if he did know about Atzmon beforehand why would he back down now? It's not as though the interview caused a massive furore, as far I can tell).

        Not that I care a great deal either way - what interests (and concerns) me about Weiss is the kind of thing I described above, rather than his deep private thoughts and motivations. What matters is that (as Ajl puts it) Atzmon is latent in Weiss's type of analysis.

        •  Yet again, you make the best defence of MW, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angry marmot

          as you acknowledge the different shades and nuances on the site.

          I don't look at MW unless someone points me there - but when you say

          "certainly I find Mondoweiss indispensable for keeping up with the conflict, especially on the American end."
          that carries a lot of weight to convince me that the site shouldn't be off-limits. Frankly, if people drag anti-semitic crap into DKos from anywhere, they will get flak for it, as they should. Since we are now all alerted to the flaws of MW, it's going to happen twice as fast if anyone drags it in from there. And that's all we need to deal with this issue effectively - further prohibitions are overkill.

          I fear that we may get several more of these Mondofront diaries, without advancing our consensus or understanding. So far, though, I give you and Red Sox both credit for addressing the pros and cons of your respective arguments, and building a more subtle and realistic view of the issues at stake than we see in many I/P debates.

          "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

          by Brecht on Thu Jun 30, 2011 at 09:03:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks Brecht. (3+ / 0-)

            My purpose here, though, was primarily to criticise Mondoweiss, rather than to defend it. And though I think Red Sox's priorities, at any rate as evidence by the topics of his diaries here, are pretty screwy, assuming that is that his opposition to racism is a principled opposition, he is perfectly justified in reacting to the propagation of antisemitism and Holocaust denial as he has. Particularly given that Mondoweiss is a 'progressive' site (sponsored by The Nation Institute no less).

            I know there has been an argument going on here about whether or not Mondoweiss is a legitimate source to cite. Since the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, Ha'aretz, Ynet, the Guardian, the Daily Telegraph, etc. are all considered legitimate sources to cite on here despite the fact that they publish almost on a daily basis lies, including racist lies, that often - and this is something that cannot be said of Mondoweiss, for all its faults - directly contribute to mass murder, torture, and other atrocities (just read any NYT article on Palestine, for example), this debate seems to me to be tellingly lacking in perspective. If we want to rule out sources that regularly publish hateful views, there are a lot of outlets to go through before one gets to Mondoweiss, which by any reasonable measure comes somewhere near the bottom of the list.

            I don't actually think we should ban citations to those sources, of course, because we need them. Ideally we would have media that provided us with necessary information and influential or otherwise important points of view without functioning as apologists for barbarism, but as they do not currently exist, we have to make do. Similarly, while I would like there to exist a site that performed the indispensable functions carried out by Mondoweiss without also playing host to antisemitism and other filth, it does not exist, and so I have to make do. (Of course this dilemma doesn't arise for those who aren't concerned with ending their complicity in the racist regime in the occupied territories - one that kills and tortures civilians on a daily basis - but such people are in no position to take a moral stand on anything, period).

            My advice, fwiw: read Mondoweiss, because it's a useful source for facts, analysis and as a window into what influential trends in the solidarity movement are thinking, but avoid citing it wherever possible, because it is tainted, and because doing so provides anyone who wants to distract from the more important issue being discussed the perfect opportunity to do so. And in the vast majority of cases it should be possible to avoid citing it. (Though to be clear, sometimes they do publish something original that is important - e.g. an original debunking of some myths about the Gaza flotilla, say - and that case, what other choice is there?). On the other hand, if someone does cite it in good faith in the context of an argument about Israel/Palestine, and if what they have cited is not objectionable in and of itself, then it seems to me that if one is genuinely concerned about racism and about combating injustices, one will retain a sense of perspective, and won't allow the issue of the citation to distract from what ought to be the priority: ending US support for brutal racist oppression in Palestine.

            That's all I've got to say on the matter for now.

            •  Very illuminating clarification, thanks; (0+ / 0-)

              sorry I didn't read your earlier comments more carefully, as some of this was already clear.

              Everything you said makes good sense. You appear to have addressed the issue so thoughtfully and thoroughly that you've provided a comprehensive ruling on the issue, which in a better I/P could stand as is for now.

              You consistently raise the level of debate here (good listening; and more light, less heat). I know my participation is erratic, as my life has been. Your contributions make me more interested in and less exasperated with I/P. Thanks again, and all the best to you.

              "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

              by Brecht on Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 12:26:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  P.S. What I agree most with: (0+ / 0-)
              Ideally we would have media that provided us with necessary information and influential or otherwise important points of view without functioning as apologists

              With that and a whole lot of campaign finance reform, this upstart colony might have a functioning democracy again.

              "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

              by Brecht on Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 12:36:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  One thing I would say (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brecht

      is that I think the case of Weiss is well worth looking at, beyond criticising him (and like I say, I think a lot of the criticism is justified). There is a lot that can be said about it, and to the extent that Weiss represents an increasing liberal presence within the solidarity movement, his intellectual trajectory is of broader interest.

      I say this because he's obviously not a classical racist or antisemite and his concern for the Palestinian cause is plainly not rooted in antisemitism. So how he came to associate with the likes of Blankfort is a puzzle. His two main intellectual interests seem to be: 1) Israel-Palestine and 2) Jews in America post-WWII. But his particular understanding of both of them (basically a liberal idealist take, as noted by Ajl), together with a feeling that serious analysis of the latter has often been stifled, combine to produce some very odd and sometimes disturbing thoughts.

      I'd be interested to read a detailed analysis of his thinking along these lines. Partly because, as I say, the solidarity movement is increasingly composed of liberals as well as leftists, and liberals tend to be more prone to idealism than leftists. And as Ajl says: "when structural analysis is sidelined, you get the precipitous slide into the racist abyss".

      So it's definitely worth exploring.

      (Incidentally it is to Weiss's credit that he publishes pieces by Ajl on Mondoweiss, despite Ajl's very trenchant critiques of him).

    •  Much to appreciate in your comment, but (11+ / 0-)

      I think you're mischaracterizing Weiss' professed ignorance of Atzmon's past. First, according to Ajl's link, Weiss was only ignorant of Atzmon's Holocaust denial. You seem to find that plausible, but I think he would have made note of the error if that was the case. Moreover, as you know, Atzmon's hatemongering extends beyond mere Holocaust denial, something that I suspect Weiss is familiar with.  Back in April, Weiss said he "generally avoid[s]" Atzmon. Now it's wholly possible that he would avoid a fellow prominent Jewish anti-Zionist for reasons unrelated to bigotry, but hopefully you can understand why I don't find that plausible, thus meaning that Weiss knew just what kind of person Gilad Atzmon is.

      Unapologetic Obama supporter.

      by Red Sox on Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 02:36:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well said (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      heathlander, sofia

      I didn't know who Atzmon was until you alerted me to his anti-semitism some months back and reading some of his quotes makes me not want to know him. I think that it behooves all those who are working for peace and justice, which includes ending racism, to stop being complicit with those who support racism.

  •  Thanks for the diary, Sox (8+ / 0-)

    All this Jew-hating mondofilth is disgusting beyond words. And the pathetic attempts to defend it are sickening too.

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