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I'm not a lawyer, just a deeply embarrassed Texan who misses Ann Richards and the pre-Bush era, when Texas blood ran blue and true. However (and don't believe those Texas TV stereotypes, I don't own a horse or a gun) I'm a big reader, and I like to try and make sense of what I read.

The 14th Amendment is made up of several sections. The Tea Party has made it known that they'd like to throw it out. At first, I thought it was Section 1 that had them all a'tizzy, regarding birthright citizenship and their disdain for "anchor babies" (aka "American Citizens").

But then, with the debt ceiling debate, we all ran back to reexamine Section 4, which states that America's ability to pay her debts shall not be questioned. And that seems pretty open-and-shut to me,  but again, I'm not a lawyer and don't even like to watch lawyer shows on television. Finer minds than mine will have to decide that.

However, I noticed something else when I went back and looked at the 14th Amendment. That happened to be Section 3. And that's when it struck me.

“Texas is a unique place. When we came into the union in 1845, one of the issues was that we would be able to leave if we decided to do that,” Perry said. “My hope is that America and Washington in particular pays attention. We’ve got a great union. There’s absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, who knows what may come of that.” -Rick Perry, April 2009, one of several statements advocating a return to Texas' status as a sovereign Republic

Supreme Court of the United States, Chief Justice Salmon Chase, April 12, 1869, Texas v. White:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...

"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.[7]

US Constitution, Amendment 14, Section 3:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Um....does anybody remember a 2/3 vote of the US House and Senate which would allow a secessionist to continue to represent my state? Because I've been looking all over the 'Net, and I can't seem to find any mention of it. I'm asking because I really want to improve my understanding of this. Thanks for any thoughts

.

10:05 AM PT: Update. DeanNC correctly pointed me in the proper direction for the answer to my question. Thank you! Section 3 was formally discharged from the requirement for majority approval of both houses, and eventually declawed, 33 years after the end of the Civil War.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/...


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Comment Preferences

  •  IANAL either (7+ / 0-)

    but I'm guessing that running his mouth doesn't cross the line.

    "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

    by sceptical observer on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:19:56 AM PDT

    •  I'm wondering, though, (5+ / 0-)

      If it was important enough to specifically word it as "having sworn to uphold the Constitution," though, then that signifies to me that the spoken word was/is considered an oath and something of great weight.

      I mean, Democracy comes with an instruction manual. If it were a bookshelf I was putting it together with an Allen wrench and I came to that part of the instructions, I'd feel like I'd have to skip over Perry and pick some other screw to fit the part, because the instructions specifically state that screws with this characteristic are not to be used.

      Farfetched analogy, but the question is real, for me.

      Hortensio. Faith, as you say, there's small choice in rotten apples." (The Taming Of The Shrew; W. Shakespeare)

      by LibbyLuLu on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:26:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He did couch it very carefully (7+ / 0-)

      But first a tip to LibbyLuLu for bringing up Texas v. White. Nobody from Texas seems to know about it, and it renders any secession talk mute.

      Perry says "no reason to dissolve it" and talks about what the "people" might do, but it doesn't cross the line in my opinion.

      However, another little know fact is that the Smith Act is still on the books, which in part says

      ...with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or...organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof.

      It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

      by se portland on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:34:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The key seems to be (6+ / 0-)
        propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or...organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence;

        force or violence. That seems to be saying that it requires an overt act.

        "The human eye is a wonderful device. With a little effort, it can fail to see even the most glaring injustice." Richard K. Morgan

        by sceptical observer on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:42:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I certainly wasn't familiar (6+ / 0-)

        with Texas v. White, and I sure wish I had known about it last week when I wound up debating a secessionist kossack.

        Having a positive ruling from SCOTUS that the Union is indissoluble would have strengthened my argument immensely.

        Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
        ¡Boycott Arizona!

        by litho on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:48:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That brings up another can 'o worms (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        se portland

        I appreciate your posting this.

        There's a voice in the back of my head whispering, "Ron Paul still takes money from Stormfront."

        Oh, boy. Maybe we won't go there, today. I know, just did. Is it too late to tiptoe away from that one?

        Hortensio. Faith, as you say, there's small choice in rotten apples." (The Taming Of The Shrew; W. Shakespeare)

        by LibbyLuLu on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:19:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I am a native of Massachusetts. (23+ / 0-)

    (just look at my user name!). I live in Maine, which, people tend to forget, was a part of Massachusetts until 1820. Part of the Missouri Compromise, IIRC.

    I did, however, live in Texas for 20 years. About half of my life. I went to High School there, and after college I returned after a time.

    I LOVE Texas. In a way, I feel a greater attachment to Texas than I do to New England. I grew up there. I came out there. Texas will always be my "home away from home". Like many Texans who are, as we say here in Maine, "from away".

    I don't recognize Texas any more. I just don't. I don't get it. I don't know what happened. I made an attempt to move back there last Fall and I couldn't stay. I just couldn't. I will say this: Texas gave up its "right to secede" when it re-entered the Union after the civil war, and I don't understand what part of that people like Gov. Goodhair don't understand.

    By the way, it's important to point out about Texas that their "revolution" to secede from Mexico was entirely about slavery. Mexico outlawed slavery, and anglo plantation owners with slaves were really pissed. Texas--its very existence--came about on the backs of slaves. While I love Texas, I also accept the fact that the hands of Texas are bloody and greedy from the beginning.

    I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:28:13 AM PDT

    •  I wasn't born in Texas but lived there for half of (6+ / 0-)

      my life.  I too love Texas and have missed it every day since I left in 2000.  Unless it's changed, every college student in the state takes a required course in Texas history, so one would think that the folks coming up would have a better understanding of what happened in the past. Apparently not.

      (Do you by chance keep up with Texas Monthly?  I subscribe but also indulge in their website, just to see what's going on a formerly great state.)

      "By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." Adolph Hitler

      by pittie70 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:46:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Texas Monthly: (6+ / 0-)

        What a wonderful publication! I do keep up with it. I take three magazines: The New Yorker, Texas Monthly, and Southern Living. My little post office in 04855 can get the NY thing, but can't imagine why I take the others. We're talking about a post office so small that the Postmaster staffs it with her own self.

        Texas Monthly is just about on par with the Atlantic Monthly before it de-camped to the South.

        I will never forget the issue where Gov. Richards straddled the Harley on the cover. Which was, by the way, where Turdblossom got the idea to start the "Ann Richards is a Dyke" meme.

        I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

        by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:52:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I became a subscriber to TM shortly after its (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          commonmass, Texnance

          first publication date.  Seems to me that over then years the mag has become less snarky and its covers are not nearly as clever or catchy as they once were.  I do remember the Gov. Richards cover.  In those days I kept every copy but after ten or so years it got to be a big chore to move them.

          I was surprised that the "Best and Worst" legislators laid out in the July issue didn't have that nasty Dan Patrick somewhere in the listings.  He is such a schmuck.  My Colo. representative, Doug Lambourn, would have made the "furniture" category.  God bless Texas and keep Perry out national politics.  Please.

          "By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." Adolph Hitler

          by pittie70 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:23:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  For the best investigative reporting on Texas- (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LibbyLuLu

        Molly Ivin's spirit lives on at the Texas Observer.

        Good thing we've still got politics in Texas -- finest form of free entertainment ever invented.- Molly Ivins

        by loblolly on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:18:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  as a FORMER Texan.... (0+ / 0-)

        I left in '89 hoping never to return.  Only to go back between 2002 and 2005.  Now living in the PNW...

        What I don't miss:
          The hot summers that start in April and end in November
          The bugs - Fire Ants, Flying Roaches (water bugs, palmetto bugs), scorpions, mosquitoes, Cicada, yellow jackets, ...)
          The Texas Red Cedar (allergy)
          Cottonwood Trees (allergy - and there are some here((.)
          Rednecks A*$*%#(
          Confederate Flags
          Texas HS football
          People who don't know how to drive
          Animal critters (Water moccasins, rattlesnakes, copper head, coral snakes, armadillo, dog packs, nutria, ...)

        DBA
         

        The voice of silence does as much damage as hateful words

        by doingbusinessas on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:41:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I sure agree about the bugs, especially the flying (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LibbyLuLu

          roaches (and regular roaches too).  As a Houstonian we always said there was no shame in having roaches unless our roaches were fat.  When I moved to Colorado I was sure the one thing I would NOT miss was the humidity but it's the thing I miss the most.  It's so dry here your skin falls off in sheets.

          "By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." Adolph Hitler

          by pittie70 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:04:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But we also have Austin... (0+ / 0-)

          True we do have hot summers, but there's always Barton Springs to cool off in...

          Good thing we've still got politics in Texas -- finest form of free entertainment ever invented.- Molly Ivins

          by loblolly on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:46:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Ricky, the lizard man (9+ / 0-)

    I am not a lawyer either, just an American.  I always find it difficult to think that the republican party sold the idea of their being the "country first" or "Freedom First" party and it was absorbed by the masses.  They said that Democrats could balance the books but that Republicans knew how to have national security.  Turns out, there are no more Republicans, they have evolved into lizard people or as we call them, the tea party.  This city slicker Perry is the kind of lizard the lizard people love.  As long as the media just looks at their respective belly buttons, this is the kind of crap we can expect from them.  But as lizards like to dwell in the stench, this is home for them.

    Perry speaks with a forked tongue.

  •  Another bit about Texas history: (14+ / 0-)

    Something every 7th grader should know (for non-Texans, this is when you have your big "Texas History course, or at least you used to.....)

    The Mexican government was very tolerant of anglophone settlers. They could have their schools in English. The could practice the Protestant religion. They were given an amazing amount of autonomy. In fact, the anglophone settlers (like Sam Houston, and others) had it pretty good. It went pretty well until Mexico, as I said up thread, outlawed slavery.

    I find it interesting that 19th Century Mexico was more progressive than Texas.

    I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:38:58 AM PDT

    •  I have trouble defining the Mexico (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, LibbyLuLu, erush1345, elwior

      of Santa Anna and Porfirio Diaz as a progressive place.

      There was a brief moment in the 1820s, after Iturbide was overthrown and before Guerrero was deposed, when fairly progressive liberals governed the country, but after Guerrero Mexico collapsed into such severe instability that the US had a cakewalk in its 1847 invasion.  Progressives returned to power in the 1850s, but their misguided policies towards Indian communities added fuel to their civil war with the Conservatives and contributed to the establishment of Maximilian's empire in the 1860s.

      When Juarez returned to power in the late 1860s, as Laurens Ballard Perry showed some thirty years ago, he established a centralized autocracy that prefigured Diaz's long dictatorship at the end of the nineteenth century.  Diaz's abuses, of course, led to the Mexican Revolution.

      Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
      ¡Boycott Arizona!

      by litho on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:59:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Life in Mexico by (0+ / 0-)

        Frances Calderon de la Barca is a series of letters written between late 1839 and early 1842 by the Scottish born wife to the first Spanish ambassador to Mexico. It is a fascinating tale.

        The whole book can be found here.

        The opposing sides would routinely shell each other in Mexico City itself. One side would hold up in the Presidential Palace and the other side in the Ciudadela, now the Biblioteca México. (There is a cool craft market by there.)

        18th.–There is a great scarcity of provisions in the centre of the city, as the Indians, who bring in everything from the country, are stopped. We have laid in a good stock of comestibles, though it is very unlikely that any difficulties will occur in our direction. While I am writing, the cannon are roaring almost without interruption, and the sound is anything but agreeable, though proving the respect entertained by Farias for "the lives, properties, and interests of all." We see the smoke, but are entirely out of the reach of the fire.

        I had just written these words, when the Señora —, who lives opposite, called out to me that a shell has just fallen in her garden, and that her husband had but time to save himself. The cannon directed against the palace kill people in their beds, in streets entirely out of that direction, while this ball, intended for the citadel, takes its flight to San Cosmé! Both parties seems to be fighting the city instead of each other; and this manner of firing from behind parapets, and from the tops of houses and steeples, is decidedly safer for the soldiers than for the inhabitants. It seems also a novel plan to keep up a continual cannonading by night, and to rest during a great part of the day. One would think that were the guns brought nearer the palace, the affair would be sooner over.

        Late last night, a whole family came here for protection; the Señora — with —, nurse, and baby, etc. She had remained very quietly in her own house, in spite of broken windows, till the bullets whizzed past her baby's bed. This morning, everything remains as it was the first day–the president in the citadel, the rebels in the palace. The government are trying to hold out until troops arrive from Puebla. In an interval of firing, the — Secretary contrived to make his way here this morning. The English Minister's house is also filled with families, it being a little out of the line of fire. Those who live in the Square, and in the Calle San Francisco are most exposed, and the poor shopkeepers in the Parian are in a state of great and natural trepidation. I need not say that the shops are all shut.

        19th.–Dr. Plan, a famous French physician, was shot this morning, as he was coming out of the palace, and his body has just been carried past our door into the house opposite.

        The Señorita — having imprudently stepped out on her balcony, her house being in a very exposed street, a pistol-ball entered her side, and passed through her body. She is still alive, but it seems impossible that she can recover. The Prior of San Joaquin, riding by just now, stopped below the windows to tell us that he fears we shall not remain long here in safety, as the pronunciados have attacked the Convent of La Concepcion, at the end of the street.

        My writing must be very desultory. Impossible to fix one's attention on anything. We pass our time on the balconies, listening to the thunder of the cannon, looking at the different parties of troops riding by, receiving visitors, who, in the intervals of the firing, venture out to bring us the last reports–wondering, speculating, fearing, hoping, and excessively tired of the whole affair.

        It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

        by se portland on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:48:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I haven't read Calderón de la Barca (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          se portland, LibbyLuLu

          but that description reminds me very much of the Decena Trágica, a sham battle in Mexico City conducted during the early phases of the Mexican Revolution and which took place in the same neighborhood of the city.

          Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
          ¡Boycott Arizona!

          by litho on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:40:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Tipped and Rec'd N/T (5+ / 0-)

    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.

    by Fed up Fed on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:42:21 AM PDT

    •  Thank you! (5+ / 0-)

      I appreciate it. Just trying to understand how someone so slimy and self-before-nation could possibly be considered fit to lead Texas, much less the United States of America. Don't you have to commit to the "United" part? Just my little question.

      Hortensio. Faith, as you say, there's small choice in rotten apples." (The Taming Of The Shrew; W. Shakespeare)

      by LibbyLuLu on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:54:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course you have to. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LibbyLuLu, erush1345, Fed up Fed, JeffW, elwior

        Even Dubya didn't talk secession. This is crazy talk from gov. Goodhair. Crazy.

        If I learned one thing in Texas it is this: Texans have their own opinions. Just think about the old tourism campaign "Texas: A Whole Other Country".

        Texas has a singular history. It is, as far as I can tell, the only state in the Union that was once an independent Republic. Regardless of the shame of why, it's the truth. (Sam Houston, by the way, was ashamed of Texas joining the Confederacy).

        As a former Texan, (and once a Texan always a Texan even if you move away or weren't even born there but just lived there, as I did--being a Texan is one thing that stays with you for life) I think that there is room for "Texas Proud" and room for being a part of this great Union. The Union should be proud to have Texas, and all its beauty and bounty, and Texas should be proud to a part of the Union.

        I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

        by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:01:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Can we stop looking for ways to disqualify... (4+ / 0-)

    ...or imprison our opponents, rather than defeating them in the usual electoral/political way?

    It's better to curse the darkness than light a candle. --Whoever invented blogs, c.1996

    by Rich in PA on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:49:08 AM PDT

    •  no (8+ / 0-)

      many of our opponents are not qualified, and many are deserving of punishment, including imprisonment...a partial list of convicted opponents would start with:

      tom delay
      duke cunningham
      bob ney
      jack abramoff
      scooter libby
      steven griles
      bernie kerik

      the list of unconvicted miscreants and evildoers is much longer due to the fact that we have a different set of standards for the wealthy and powerful, IOKIYAR, and a group of weak-kneed 21st century democrats who have the powe,r but not the will,  to investigate, indict, and convict

      "Kill 'em with Coupons: Paul Ryan's Road to From Medicare to Manslaughter"

      by memofromturner on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:12:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Jack Abramoff did go to prison (3+ / 0-)

        He started his sentence November 15, 2006 and was only released on December 3, 2010. Granted he served his sentence at a half-way house in Maryland where he was allowed to work at a pizza place name Tov Pizza reportedly for somewhere between $7.50 - $10.00 per hour

        It is possible to read the history of this country as one long struggle to extend the liberties established in our Constitution to everyone in America. - Molly Ivins

        by se portland on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:23:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  correct - that's a list of convicted criminals (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          se portland, JeffW, LibbyLuLu, elwior

          some of whom actually went to prison

          the list of republican criminals from the 70s is noteworthy in that most were investigated, indicted, tried, convicted, and imprisoned - the usual and recommended way of dealing with criminals up until the post-bush, lily-livered dem era

          "Kill 'em with Coupons: Paul Ryan's Road to From Medicare to Manslaughter"

          by memofromturner on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:30:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Texnance, JeffW, johnny wurster

      ...like I said, I wasn't looking, exactly. I was re-reading the 14th Amendment with regards to the debt ceiling, and Section 3 dealing with government representatives who advocate rebellion just kind of stepped off the page for me. Naturally, reading the section called Rick's several 2009 speeches to mind (and about 16% of my fellow Texans, who jumped into the pro-secession frenzy with wild abandon after their Governor planted the notion. You see their poorly-spelled signs at every Lone Star Tea Party rally).

      Texas actually does not have the right to secede, as many here have correctly pointed out, in my estimation. It has the right to break up into as many as five separate United States. It's much more complicated than that, but that's the upshot.

      I often do think that the state is too large and diverse for any one restrictive power such as the Bush/Perry/big oil/big media/big agriculture dynasty to budget, administrate, and serve fairly. We see by Governor Perry's budget decisions (axing 100,000 teachers in favor of a very nice tax exemption for privately-owned and corporate luxury yachts, for instance, or his $25m, 10-year, taxpayer-funded Formula One race-car) that a significant portion of Texas is being severely underrepresented for our tax dollars. Questions arise.

      I have to admit, I've had at least one daydream of a Republic of Redneck Riviera somewhere around the river in New Braunfels, where the Houston expat musicians, Kerrverts, and Austin-runaway-hippies play music under the moon in their own state of nirvana, with a concert every night and free watermelon and tye-dye for all. But that was just an amusing thought, not serious, and after about three minutes of thought I realized that would probably be a serious clusterfuck, no matter how well-intentioned the notion.

       Nevertheless, the thought of breaking off entirely from the USA is horrifying to 84% of us (the non-16% of Texans who did not immediately run out and purchase "SECEDE!" bumper stickers). We other 86% are not properly represented by Rick Perry, regardless of whose money was spent to reelect him in 2010 (a clearer picture of that is now emerging, as well, as it comes to light that he skipped out on the state without notifying anyone in order to attend a Koch strategy session, as did Rick Scott of Florida, among others).

      When we have a dangerous blend of Bush cronyism and new Koch money, naturally curious people who feel unrepresented are going to ask questions when they arise off the screen.

      I always think it's a good thing with ordinary people read the Constitution and ask questions in order to gain a greater knowledge and understanding, don't you? Even if we disagree, I would much rather we start with the same reading material and discuss interpretation, than shut down any conversation at all because of some social pressure to shy away. We gain no additional knowledge if we don't at least ask.

      You'll always be allowed that freedom from me, my friend.

      Hortensio. Faith, as you say, there's small choice in rotten apples." (The Taming Of The Shrew; W. Shakespeare)

      by LibbyLuLu on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:47:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not just no, fuck no. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LibbyLuLu

      They're crooked sons a bitches.  Obtaining justice is demanded.

  •  He made a contingent endorsement (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, JeffW, cardinal

    of secession as part of a throwaway comment,  it was stupid enough to disqualify him from federal or any office, but it's not engaging in rebellion or insurrection, except against common sense.

    Congress did grant amnesty to most confederate office holders, as well, in 1872, as part of "redemption."

    "This world demands the qualities of youth: not a time of life but a state of mind[.]" -- Robert F. Kennedy

    by Loge on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:54:14 AM PDT

  •  Speech is protected under the First Amendment (6+ / 0-)

    and does not constitute "insurrection" or "rebellion."  A person has to take some action in order to engage in "insurrection" or "rebellion."  

    See the SCOTUS case of Brandenburg v. Ohio.  

    So, no, speech cannot be a violation of that provision.  

  •  Nice catch, LibbyLuLu - even if it's (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LibbyLuLu, loblolly

    been overturned, it does cast an important light on the whims of your Gov. Thanks!

    Pollan's Rule: Cook! What two people eat for dinner: My 365 Dinners 2011

    by pixxer on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:09:09 AM PDT

  •  Eh, I don't know (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster, LibbyLuLu

    I'm not really comfortable with exploiting that particular clause, one that conservatives have long used to argue that everyone from Clinton to Obama to Muslims to all war protesters shouldn't be allowed to hold office.  By so many measures, Rick Perry is grossly unqualified to hold any position of power or responsibility; but if an offhanded remark someone makes in the heat of a tough primary election renders him constitutionally disqualified from serving, then we'll quickly learn the meaning of "be careful what you wish for."

    Families is where a nation finds hope, where wings take dream.

    by cardinal on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:20:23 AM PDT

  •  The 14th amendment didn't overturn the 1st. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cardinal, LibbyLuLu

    So....meh.

  •  What about all them fedral installations.......... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LibbyLuLu, Bluefin

    in Texas?  Perry and Co. can't keep those.

    Perry is patronizing the losers.

  •  Rick flirted with secessionists, but drew the line (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LibbyLuLu, Bluefin

    Not too long  after Perry  made those remarks on secession, there was a "Sovereignty and Secession Rally" on the steps of the Texas Capitol. These folks are too  crazy for even Rick Perry, who cancelled his speaking appearance there, which the organizers were not very happy about. The other speakers included Debra Medina, who was running against Perry and KBH in the Republican primary. She whipped up the crowd talking  about secession being a "bloodbath", and that used that favorite quote about the tree of liberty needing to be watered from time to time with the blood of tyrants.

    That was after Larry Kilgore, another Republican running for governor, said the following:

    I hate that [American] flag up there. I hate the United States government... They're an evil, corrupt government. They need to go. Sovereignty is not good enough. Secession is what we need! ...We hate the United States!

    Oddly, the quote on the Texas Nationalist Movement t-shirts is a quote from  Sam Houston, who  opposed secession, and refused to swear loyalty to the Confederacy when Texas seceded from the Union.

    Texas Nationalist Movement

    Such nice folks...

    Texans for Secession

    whose website talked about how the happy slaves were treated so well by slaveowners-

     

    Where the ownership of men and women, was more like the mentoring of a less privileged race, giving a job and a dignity to those who would otherwise suffer from poverty, hunger and disease. My guess is that many were loved and cherished as family members, kind of like we love and care for our dogs and cats

    And this guy, whose flag says "Don't Tread on Me".

    Capitol grounds

    Good thing we've still got politics in Texas -- finest form of free entertainment ever invented.- Molly Ivins

    by loblolly on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:15:46 AM PDT

    •  Loblolly, what a terrific reply. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      loblolly, Bluefin

      I'm so grateful for this response. Thanks for taking the time and putting in the awesome effort. What a delight!

       It's just so offensive, the secessionist movement, I don't understand how any credibility for leadership can be given to anyone who radically advocates leaving the union. Former half-term First Dude of Alaska's another one.

      And the fact that Governor Perry weaseled out of the rally he inspired amongst diehard isolationists is not a big surprise. Haters still got to go have their rally, and they still think Governor Perry's a big hero whether he showed up that day or pissed off the organizers. He's still the Tea Party King, the godfather of the secessionist movement, and their fervor helped him sweep back into another term.

      Especially with that last-minute infusion of fundraising cash that Rick Perry received in October of 2009, which allowed him to outspend White by about 4:1 going into the final month of the campaign.

      Makes me want to scrub beneath my fingernails with lemons and scalding hot water, this Perry machine. Slimy, slimy, slimy.

      Hortensio. Faith, as you say, there's small choice in rotten apples." (The Taming Of The Shrew; W. Shakespeare)

      by LibbyLuLu on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:48:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for your diary (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BarackStarObama, Bluefin, LibbyLuLu

        People need to know about some of the  crazies he is rubbing shoulders with.

        I worry that people are underestimating Rick Perry, and not taking him seriously as a potential Republican presidential nominee. Meanwhile  he goes running around the country, promoting his book, building a campaign staff, raising money from the Koch brothers and other deep pockets donors, and pandering to the religious right with his prayerapalooza. Let's hope he's just auditioning for a lucrative spot on Fox news...

        Good thing we've still got politics in Texas -- finest form of free entertainment ever invented.- Molly Ivins

        by loblolly on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:11:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He will be the rescummies 2012 candidate. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LibbyLuLu
          Let's hope he's just auditioning for a lucrative spot on Fox news...

          "Double, double, toile and trouble; Fire burne, and Cauldron bubble... By the pricking of my Thumbes, Something wicked this way comes": Republicans Willkommen auf das Vierte Reich! Sie Angelegenheit nicht mehr.

          by Bluefin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 04:22:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Hell, back in the '70's there was a big (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      loblolly, LibbyLuLu

      Texas counterculture secessionist 'movement'. I were even one, had a teeshirt too, and a flag for the boat.
      But it was way different than todays 'baggers, these cretins are dead serious.

      "Double, double, toile and trouble; Fire burne, and Cauldron bubble... By the pricking of my Thumbes, Something wicked this way comes": Republicans Willkommen auf das Vierte Reich! Sie Angelegenheit nicht mehr.

      by Bluefin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 04:27:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  PERRY advocated secession from the UNION! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LibbyLuLu

    He did so, as a public official in a public forum and he accepted the applause of the people gathered there. Free speech is a privilege of citizenship. But treason is a serious crime. Perry cannot be entrusted to serve, protect and defend the principles of the US constitution when he makes public expressions of "distaste" for the document. The man spoke his mind. He cannot take the words or the works back. He has on more than one occasion regretted the fact that TX was a part of the US of America. He is what he said. A traitor!!

    E.McCarthy:"Republicans feed the sparrows by first feeding the horses".

    by CarmanK on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 03:11:41 PM PDT

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