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As you read this, rich and powerful people in Washington, DC are trying to determine not whether they should cut programs designed to help low and middle-income Americans, but by how much they should cut those programs. The rich and powerful people in DC are making these cuts in order to pay for tax breaks they recently gave to rich people and large corporations. Additionally, the cuts are being made at the behest of the lobby organizations and media operations owned by rich people and large corporations.

If that isn't a class war, I don't know what is. For the past 40 years, the outcomes of the political battles in this war have almost always approximated the forthcoming debt ceiling deal. Stuff for low and middle-income people gets cut. Stuff for big corporations and the wealthy gets protected.

In this depressing environment, it feels good to see ads in the Wisconsin recall elections that are fighting the class war in the other direction, on behalf of low and middle-income Americans and against the wealthy. For example, here is a recent ad that We Are Wisconsin is running against Republican Luther Olsen:

Several organizations have been running ads like these against Republicans in Wisconsin, such as the ad of Wisconsin protesters by Democracy for America and the PCCC that got big play back in the spring.

Class Warfare
Class warfare in the spending fight

Watching ads with this simple message—elected officials taking money from the middle class and giving it to rich people and big corporations—makes it easy to understand why Republicans get huffy whenever they think Democrats are engaging in class warfare. When you fight the class war from the other direction, it can be very effective.

Polling shows it working, too:

Mellman Group for the Democratic Party of Wisconsin, 713/-14, 350 likely voters, MoE 5, no public trendlines.

Sandy Pasch (D): 47
Alberta Darling (R-inc): 46
Undecided: 7

Pasch now joins Jessica King and Jennifer Shilling as Democratic challengers leading incumbent Republicans in the latest Wisconsin recall election polling. Democrats need to pick up three seats to take control of the state Senate. With all three Democratic incumbents ahead, the available public polling now shows Democrats winning the campaign overall. Keep in mind that there hasn't even been a public poll in the Luther Olsen versus Fred Clark election, where a generic Democrat led back in March.

Democrats are fighting a class war in Wisconsin, and they're winning. Granted, there have been prominent ads in the Wisconsin recall elections with very different messages, such as the DLCC hitting Republican Dave VanderLeest on his criminal record, and our Daily Kos ads targeting Randy Hopper for his mistress getting a state job and a raise. While those are good ads, any electoral victory that would come as a result of them would not strike a blow in the class war or build progressive power. Electoral victories stemming from the personal flaws of the candidates you oppose are one-off, tactical success stories. Electoral victories stemming from your core ideological messaging are strategic successes that build real power.

There is a class war being fought in Washington, DC right now, but it's extremely one-sided and so the outcome is obvious. By contrast, in Wisconsin the class war is being fully engaged from both sides, and the outcome there is balanced on the edge of a knife. That shouldn't come as a surprise, since there is no way to win a class war unless you fight one.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:00 PM PDT.

Also republished by ClassWarfare Newsletter: WallStreet VS Working Class Global Occupy movement and Progressive Hippie.

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Comment Preferences

  •  We Don't Have a Party That Wants to Fight It (35+ / 0-)

    It only includes those who want to fight it.

    The people have finished every Democratic Admin with at least a little less protection and opportunity since the Beatles broke up, although most people probably don't know it.

    They're going to finish this first Obama term with a lot less of those and with less wealth than they had going in, and they are keenly aware of that.

    I think this makes polling and predictions for 2012 more uncertain than polling at this time for most modern elections.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:06:27 PM PDT

    •  How To Turn th Dems Into A Party That'll Fight It? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      anothergreenbus

      One would think that would be the fundamental question that Kossacks would have been trying to answer, ever since the midterms.

      Markos' earlier approach - 'more, better Dems' - has unfortunately had its insufficiency proved by the past two years.  And 'more, better Dems' has really been what this website has been all about for many years now.  

      So what replaces that?

      I've been expecting some sort of debate to emerge on this site about that.  But this site seems to be coasting along as if that basic approach was still working.

      For what it's worth, here's my proposal: a progressive 'party within a party' routinely either endorsing progressive Dem incumbents, or contesting Lieberdems in primaries.  More detail at the link.

      •  This is your plan and I endorse it 100%. (0+ / 0-)

        (Although, I might look at other names.)

        * [new] A party within a party (0+ / 0-)
        0) A third party of the left obviously won't work.
         - See Nader, 2000
         - Our first-past-the-post system makes it inherently self-defeating, and too much trouble to change that system
         - Actually, I've got an idea for getting around this, but it's hard to imagine real human beings following the script
         - so forget a third party.

        1) Then the only alternative is fixing the Democratic Party.

        2) Next question: what's broken?
         - failure to fight for the interests of working Americans
         - failure to address climate change

        3) Solutions I: Fighting for working Americans: create an identifiable party-within-a-party (PWAP) inside the Democratic Party that would fight for job creation, Social Security and Medicare preservation, increased rights for workers
         - the three P's: primaries, procedure, and party discipline
         - organizers of the PWAP would identify Congresscritters that support the PWAP agenda, seek to get them to identify with the PWAP
         - would identify Congresscritters that undermined the PWAP agenda, especially either (a) relative to their district, or (b) in ways that were publicly visible or otherwise politically problematic
         - would routinely primary the underminers
         - would ultimately seek a working majority of the Dems identifying as PWAP members
         - once there, want to use tools of committee assignments and chairmanships to reward support of PWAP agenda and ensure at least some consequences for DINOs from going too far off the reservation
         - especially want to enforce party discipline to change Senate procedures to either end filibusters or redesign them so the burden of inconvenience is on the minority, and get rid of other procedural obstacles (e.g. make motions to proceed non-filibusterable, end the post-cloture debate requirement)
         - then we won't need 60 freakin' votes to pass a progressive program

        4) Solutions II: climate change
         - reduce payroll tax by cap-and-trade auction revenue
         - if payroll tax eliminated altogether and there's still excess revenue, rebate it to taxpayers on per-capita basis
         - even if a likely Dem voter thinks climate change is bunk, it's no skin off his/her back

        My only addition is this: If we are going to succeed, we need a clear and unequivocal message.  One of the reasons Obama is so damaging to Democrats is his message is muddled, as a result of his having to serve two masters--Wall Street for money and Main Street for votes.  We need a clear middle-class message that is easy to understand.  A clear message can trump corporate money--as demonstrated in Wisconsin.

        In the GOP your status is inversely proportional to your integrity.

        by anothergreenbus on Mon Jul 18, 2011 at 06:01:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If only we had a party on our side in DC (47+ / 0-)

    Democrats nationally are ignoring economic populism, which is the only issue set that has vast, 75-80% support behind it that you can name.  You wouldn't get those kind of numbers supporting apple pie and ice cream.  Yet the "party of the people" consistently and stubbornly refuses to fight for the people.   Nothing in DC gets done unless the big corporate interests are paid off first and foremost.  People get some crumbs from the Democrats, and none from the Republicans.  That's the difference we're so obsessed about.

    It's very encouraging to see some signs of economic populism appearing in the party at the state level, but simultaneously discouraging that it takes Snidely Whiplash figures like Scott Walker to bring it out.  At this point I'm waiting for Richard Trumka to make good on his threat to withdraw labor support from Democrats who don't support labor.  I'll be lining up behind him, and will suggest that anybody who cares about the people of this country do the same.

    DC politicians don't realize they're corrupt for the same reason fish don't realize they're wet.

    by Dallasdoc on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:08:34 PM PDT

  •  It is the war that needs to be fought (19+ / 0-)

    because it is what is wrong with the country and the planet.  

    If you don't stand for something, eventually you stand for nothing.

    by dkmich on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:09:32 PM PDT

  •  Um... we are NOT winning (12+ / 0-)

    Wisconsin Democrats might be on the verge of at last stopping GOP advances, but we are not winning.  We should expect to win the Hansen/VanderLeest election Tuesday in a rout, but we are not winning.  We might even in the next two weeks start to see good poll numbers on the remaining recalls, but even then we will not be winning.

    The GOP has done huge damage already in Wisconsin.  Even if we win the recall slate, recall Gov Walker, and go on to win in 2012 we will still be miles behind the 2010 status.  We face years of work before we can start to say we're winning in the class war.

    I see where you are going with the diary conclusion. But I wish you had found a different way to say it that Wisconsin Democrats are winning the class war.

    Don't panic. Demonstrate.

    by Quicklund on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:17:16 PM PDT

    •  We have not yet begun to fight. (17+ / 0-)

      And that comparison becomes more apt in my mind the more I think of it.

      We're a little like Churchill & England just into WWII. We haven't won. We've gotten our asses kicked, BADLY, across the country. The only saving grace is that we have been able to regroup, turn & try to mount a fight - but only after losing much of what we valued.

      This round of recalls is holding the line. If we win here, then we can reverse the tide. But it will be a long fight.

      If we don't win next month, government of the people, by the people, for the people may be swept away for a generation or more.

      Recall - DONE! VOTE against the fakes - DONE! VOTE TO TAKE WISCONSIN BACK!!! Rescind. Rebuild.

      by stcroix cheesehead on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:36:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  From John Paul Jones to Winston Churchill (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buckybadger1988, GeoffT, sombra

        When I hear Walker-Backers gripe about "Why are the Democrats running to Illinois?  Why are they recalling senators for one vote?  Why are they taking this to court?  Why why why", I am reminded of this.

        Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the new world, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old

        Don't panic. Demonstrate.

        by Quicklund on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:17:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  As a 1940 cartoon after the fall of France said (5+ / 0-)

        Two British soldiers looking across the channel towards Europe have this exchange:

        "So we're all alone in the world then?"

        "Aye we are, the whole 500 million of us".

        That was referring to the population of the empire, but I think it works well here too.

        Once the Wisconsin Senate is retaken then we can get to the Churchill quote after Monty's victory at El Alamein: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

      •  Agree with all except (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buckybadger1988, Quicklund, AnnieJo
        If we don't win next month, government of the people, by the people, for the people may be swept away for a generation or more.

        because, as you so eloquently say,

        We have not yet begun to fight.

        I won't back down. To me, not winning (by that, I am assuming you mean taking back the Senate, not just winning one or two seats) would be only a setback. I'll, like many others, will still keep pressing. The ravaging by the system is so rampant, I see coalitions being built across the country. Look at what's happening with ALEC. Wisconsin brought Koch & ALEC to the forefront and the Kochroaches will soon be scattering because the light is being shined upon them.

        Yes, it could get bad. Perhaps it will despite what we do. We could win and things could get worse. Scotty already turned down HSR, so we have to find something to make up for that. He scared away the wind developers, so we have to make up for that. So we will face problems, no doubt. And eventually, we will prevail. Why? Because we're mad as hell and we aren't going to take it anymore. And because we love our families and at least want them to remember us as fighting so they can carry it on if need be.

        So, take heart, my fellow Wisconsin "out-of-state agitator," we will prevail! :)

        You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. -- Sir Winston Churchill

        by bleeding heart on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 05:03:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You can't win it, if you don't fight it. n.t (7+ / 0-)

      If you don't stand for something, eventually you stand for nothing.

      by dkmich on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:38:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fighting it is not voluntary (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stcroix cheesehead

        The guys at Pearl Harbor didn't wave away the Zeroes by saying "Sorry, we'll take a pass."

        My point is the diarist is jumping the gun a bit with winning talk.

        Don't panic. Demonstrate.

        by Quicklund on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:19:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually it is voluntary (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mayfly

          As we've seen throughout history and within our party, people choose to fight.  There are other options such as surrendering or choosing to work with the opposition.  Vichy France chose to collaborate. We even have name for such people from a WWII example quislings.

          Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. Thomas Paine

          by Rebecca on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:51:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  sigh (0+ / 0-)

            Don't panic. Demonstrate.

            by Quicklund on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:59:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  there's always a pedant, isn't there. ;) /nt (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quicklund
              •  It is not pedantic to point out, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                buckybadger1988

                when the comment states that fighting is not voluntary, that it is very much voluntary.  One of the major problems we have within our party is that a group of our elected officials are choosing to not fight, and to collaborate to a certain extent with the Republicans.  

                Some of our elected officials are choosing, voluntarily, to use Repulican memes, to side with Republicans on important issues, to not stand up to Republican use of the filibuster and other legislative measures to control what bills are passed.  

                These are choices our politicians have chosen.  They could have chosen otherwise.  

                Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. Thomas Paine

                by Rebecca on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 06:00:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  So true, Rebecca--"Quisling" referred to (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rebecca

            a Norway politician who gave the Nazis the info they needed to sail up the fiords.    A side note here--during WW II Sweden was neutral.  The very popular movie star  of the '30s and early '40s, Sonya Heine, was Swedish.  She was in Hollywood at the time, and was always depicted as Norwegian --not Swedish.  

            "We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes..." Leona Helmsley, and GOP in House, Senate, and States.

            by Mayfly on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 04:05:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The class war has many battles (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, shaharazade

      within it. The Wisconsin battle is a kind of rear guard action to push the enemy far enough back to make further gains possible. The skirmishes are necessary if there is to be the slightest chance to roll back the foundation of the plutocrat regime that rules America today.

      Winning that rollback will require an agenda that few Dems (probably even Sanders) would support -- radical redistribution of the national wealth, putting environmental survival at a higher priority than economic growth, taking money and advertising out of political campaigns, and dumping stifling Constitutional features like the electoral college, the Senate, and the way judges are appointed, for example.

      The problem is, we've reached a point where even the most "leftist" policies are not enough to overcome the problems for any length of time. Like the Soviet Union before us, we face an impasse generated by our own internal contradictions -- more jobs or housing or cars vs a planet we can survive on as a species, for instance. The wakeup in Wisconsin doesn't win the war, but it does show us that the war is worth the fight.

      Conservatism explained: Carrots for the rich and the corporate. Sticks for the workers and the poor. It really is that simple.

      by DaveW on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:53:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  perfect summation: (18+ / 0-)
    There is a class war being fought in Washington, DC right now, but it's extremely one-sided and so the outcome is obvious. By contrast, in Wisconsin the class war is being fully engaged from both sides, and the outcome there is balanced on the edge of a knife. That shouldn't come as a surprise, since there is no way to win a class war unless you fight one.

    wisconsin can set an example for all!

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:17:50 PM PDT

  •  Can't win a class war by sitting out elections, (8+ / 0-)

    complaining about a Democratic candidate who is worse than preferred, but better than the opposition.  It is hard to win a war by retreating and giving your enemy control of your forces and weapons.  No war has ever been won by refusing to fight unless the conditions were perfect.

    "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." Maya Angelou

    by ahumbleopinion on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:18:04 PM PDT

  •  "Working"? I doubt it (5+ / 0-)

    Like many progressives you assume that what appeals to you, or to me for that matter, is automatically a winning message. It is not. Despite the class war adverts Prosser won (or at least kept it close enough to cheat). And you champion a 46/45 poll as evidence of winning. Here's a hypothesis - those "hard hitting" adverts are at best a wash.  Class struggle is an appealing concept to a small percentage of the electorate. If you want to move the larger group you have to address them in terms that mean something to them.

    •  Time and again... (9+ / 0-)

      ...progressive ideas poll very, very well.  It just doesn't translate into Democratic electoral victory.  And I think it's because not enough people perceive Democrats as actually fighting for those progressive ideas.

      •  that's a thought (4+ / 0-)

        but my guess is it is more that class struggle rhetoric is totally ineffective these days - even though the public is ready for progressive ideas.

        •  I agree. The class struggle... (9+ / 0-)

          ...is clearly going on. The oligarchy (or whatever one wishes to call it) has been pushing back our modest gains for decades. And certain elements of "class struggle" rhetoric don't resonate. There is more than a messaging problem here, but crafting a better message to get across the same points is an important aspect of the struggle The right has been extremely successful at this; indeed, had they not been, they wouldn't have done such an fabulous job of fucking us.

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:00:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  class consciousness is absent (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dirtandiron, shaharazade, Mayfly, PhilK

            that, in a nut, is the problem

            awakening class consciousness is the solution

            how to do that most expeditiously is the strategic question

            frankly, i think it could easily have happened by now had obama chosen a different path

            after wall street wrecked the economy the american people were ready for real change

            we still are

            proably moreso, i'd say

            just waiting for the vehicle and the spark

            blue dogs eat shit

            by wbgonne on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:21:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  So where are all the marketing people that can (4+ / 0-)

          sell pimple cream to teenagers and toilet paper to teddy bears, and anyone remember the "Epilady" torture device, millions sold to hopeful hersutes looking for painless depilation? All working for the Wrongs? Am I wrong that a big part of what's been done to working class people like myself and my wife has been accomplished behind a very competent smokescreen of "message?" It's a war, and psyops is a big part of it.

          I am a naive one when it comes to what happens in "the races," and yes, I am not active enough to have even the tiniest right to comment, but fer Crissake, this is a country that MANUFACTURES DEMAND for every kind of foolish gewgaw that can be spun up into a pop "must-have-to-be-cool" artifact.

          This place seems to run on "polling," the activity that seems to actually have supplanted actual citizen participation and voting, so somebody ought to know what kinds of things move people in their hearts. Focus groups, brainstorming, does that all go on? I imagine it must -- maybe it's just that ideals and decency and the Golden Rule just do not "sell well" in the cacaphony of Commercial Messages, As Seen On TV and through your favorite net-linked screen.

          Reagan got a huge fucking boost, as I recall from that "bear wandering in the woods," http://www.youtube.com/... , and another from that "Morning In America" thing, http://www.youtube.com/... , tied to the rest of the consistent and disciplined messaging that creatures like Gingrich and Rove organize. Nobody like that on the side of the people who CREATE the wealth, as opposed to the people that Hoover it up so greedily?

          Yeah it takes money to buy talent and time on the airways, but there are glimmers -- http://www.youtube.com/...

          Anyone?

          "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

          by jm214 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:15:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  part of the problem is that prog organizations (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            just assume they know that the public wants "fight" and class war rhetoric.

            •  i think it is more complex than that (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jm214

              sometimes there is a time for compromise and cooperation

              sometimes there is a time for confrontation

              it depends on the circumstances

              today we have a brutal bullying right wing that is drunk with power

              they won't compromise, they won't work cooperatively, they are out for blood

              they must be stopped and, first, they must be confronted

              whether to confront and fight or work cooperatively is properly a question of tactics, not one of substance, as the goal is the enactment of the sensible progressive policies the country needs and wants

              please be advised that nothing in this comment should be construed as an endorsement of a third-party or third-party candidate

              by wbgonne on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:13:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that analysis strikes me as wrong (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                erush1345

                too many people here associate strident rhetoric with "fighting" and softer rhetoric with "compromise", but that's not necessarily true - in either case. The goal of progressive marketing should not be to appeal to the good side of hard hearted wingers, but it should not be a pep rally for the choir either. The question is - e.g. what message will motivate people in WI to go to the polls to defeat wingers. And class struggle rhetoric does not appear to be the correct answer.

                •  the rhetoric of class warfare (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jm214

                  isn't yet appealing to most americans

                  but i suspect much of that is just inertia: once people begin thinking in terms of class, likely manifesting first in the guise of anger against one part of the plutocracy, it could explode

                  imo, an economic populist could win the presidency could win the presidency and a charismatic populist could swamp the country like obama did

                  if nothing else, speaking in terms of class and class warfare makes that language and those notions more commonplace

                  there is a lot of foundational work that must be done and stretching the boundaries left rhetorically helps the cause

                  please be advised that nothing in this comment should be construed as an endorsement of a third-party or third-party candidate

                  by wbgonne on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:49:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  the rhetoric of it isn't, but the reality of it is (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jm214

                    Every American instinctively understands that rich people run everything and poor people get shit on.

                    If "class struggle" rhetoric scares people, then don't call it "class struggle"  Call it "charlie" if you want.  The reality remains the same. People want economic justice, and neither party is even attempting to bring it.

                    The words might scare people, but the idea behind the words doesn't.  So change the words.

                    •  i agree (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jm214

                      like i've mentioned elsewhere, an economic populist will find a rich vein to tap into

                      i like the idea of speaking directly in terms of class and i have no problem with "war" either

                      i suspect that americans will require a charismatic figure to light the fire and the texture and tone of the populism will depend on how angry people are when it happens

                      it's coming soon, one way or another, whether we like it or not

                      americans will not suffer in silence

                      please be advised that nothing in this comment should be construed as an endorsement of a third-party or third-party candidate

                      by wbgonne on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 04:19:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  no they don't really understand that (0+ / 0-)

                      you are projecting your feelings onto other people.

                  •  does it stretch the boundary (0+ / 0-)

                    or does it play into successful GOP marketing?

                    Until there are a number of successful angry economic populists at the city and state levels, it's hard to believe that a presidential populist will do well.

                    •  i disagree (0+ / 0-)

                      i am almost certain that middle class americans will become furious as the degradation of their standard-of-living becomes apparent

                      how that manifests itself depends on many factors

                      and i'll add that, as things stand, unless the democratic party commits to some form of economic populism it is doomed

                      please be advised that nothing in this comment should be construed as an endorsement of a third-party or third-party candidate

                      by wbgonne on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 05:03:04 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i don't understand your theory (0+ / 0-)

                        why are there not a number of big city angry populist mayors then? We don't even have a Laguardia.  An angry populist coalition running the legislature of at least one state? Why does it have to start and end at the Presidential level?

                        Seems to me that you are an angry populist and you want it to be the case that millions of other people agree with you. I cheered when Alan Grayson did his bit. I donated to Kucinich. But events show that I'm not in the majority - not by a long shot.

              •  "Class" is discrete but the reality is continuous. (0+ / 0-)

                The reason people reject the idea of class is that the term presumes a discrete categorization when the real world phenomenon is a continuous one.  You can't define a set of boundary conditions which put people clearly in one class or another.  There's poor, poorer, poorest.  There's rich, richer, richest, etc  There isn't an obvious place to draw the boundaries.  Even if poor people recognize that they're getting screwed by the rich, they still think there is a continuous slope between poor and rich with people populating all places along that slope.

                The terminology of class warfare presumes rigid categories without anyone occupying the middle spaces between the categories.  That's what makes even people who agree that the rich screw the poor and think that's wrong still not accept the rhetoric of class warfare.

          •  Why isn't it happening? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jm214

            Various reasons.  Well, a lot of Dems are caught in the web and will not use the rhetoric as it would apply to them.

            Also, many Dems have allowed the GOP to define them politically and "imagistically" and thus react off that.  A great example of that was the firing of Mrs. Sherrod.  The White House staff were afraid of being defined by the right wing media, so they fired her.   Its like the right wing has instilled in Dems conscious their definition of liberals, and liberals are always on the defensive to prove otherwise.

            And so with class war, the gop uses it very effectively against Dems.  So the Dems cede ground and won't use it as they cannot nor will not fight it.

      •  "Progressive ideas" are not "Class War." (5+ / 0-)

        Those are two different concepts, located along two different axes.

        One can argue for, say, a higher tax rate on the wealthy through "class war" - for instance, by saying that it's a good way to really get back at them and give more to lower-income people - or one can argue for that same policy by talking about the deficit, about public services that benefit "everyone," or about "shared sacrifice."

        Pointing to issues polling doesn't tell us a thing about how explicit references to class warfare plays as a political strategy.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:57:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh course it works. gop has shown it to work. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hirodog

      When Bush called Kerry a typical Washington liberal during the debates he was invoking a ready made set of images based on class war from the other end.  

      The gop created out of the rich, priveledged Bush the Jr. a man of the people--authentic.  Authentic against the inauthentic rich, elite liberals.  It was just amazing how often I read on the winger side Kerry's wealth through his wives mentioned and decried as being a sign he as in-authentic.  

      I would say in fact, a good part of the gop base has been captured through images of (white) class discontent and the gop version of class warfare.  It is not the only tool in their rhetorical toolbox against Democrats, but it is a potent one and significant one.  

      You are fundamentally proposing an emotionless, intellectual arguement as the basis for agitprop--agitprop is not meant to be based on forms of polite debate.  

      From my point of view, you basically propose that class does not matter, it is not an issue.  I say it needs to be raised as an issue and you go and repeat it and use well designed messages to further it.  To not do it, is to accept the republican memes against Democrats as rich liberal elites while removing it as an useful tool.

      •  you are mistaken (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        I propose vivid appealing argument based on what motivates people today,  not on a kind of nostalgia for the good old days of the labor movement or when Harry Truman denounced the elite (and got his ass kicked).

        Since Reagan won, nobody has succeeded with the old podium pounding class struggle rhetoric. If you want to win, you have to appeal to a wide group of people in terms that resonate with them, not with you.

        •  Please, no tired right wing bullshit (0+ / 0-)

          You know, you really are using typical a right wing theme when you "personalize" your message as in basically we are wrong because we are self-absorbed and not in contact with the needs nor minds of "real people".  You just echoed what republicans tell people about the left.

          Ah, lefties live in a fantasy world and are just not practical people.  Living for the days of Truman and unions those impractical non reality based lefties.

          Dang.

          •  you're evading (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            It's not a right wing point that the class struggle adverts in WI Judicial election did not work, it's a reality point.

            And, frankly, there is obviously a kernel of truth in the RW critique. This place, for example, is an echo chamber where people keep assuming that rhetoric that appeals to them and political views they hold are the recipe for success - even though the evidence is otherwise.

            My interest is in winning elections and political struggles to win social justice. I have no interest in losing to prove a point or to show that we're "fighting".

            •  Your fantasy point. Go to the movies. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dirtfarmer

              okay i will skip your personal attribution of a personal failure of leftists to do whatever you think they fail at.

              so here is the point.  at best you argue that appeals to "class war" are ineffectual.   my point is that they are effective as first witnessed by the gopers who have succesfully used it.  you absolutely refuse to even contradict the point or even acknowelegde they use it.  Seems only ineffectual if leftists use it.

              Second, hundreds of millions of dollars of movie profits are based on the very idea of class conflict.  This is not some unknown, rejected, trivial, not sufficient point to be used advocate the point.  You seem to posit a world where some unemployed voter rejects themes of class conflict like a sour glass of wine based on some bizarre intellectual construct.

              The idea of class conflict is in the pysche of any American who has watched more than Foxnews.  This is why right wingers instantly go on the attack when they see the theme promoted as with Avatar.    They unlike you understand the potency of the theme to fire the unconscious imagination and from there to action.  The right wingers attack the emergence of the idea.  

              Embrace it and dare to win.

  •  The rich have so much money they can't get any (5+ / 0-)

    more comfortable.  Their only thrill now is inflicting pain.  Just like the pretty cheer leaders.  They can't get any more beautiful so they torture the 'ugly' ones.

    . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

    by 88kathy on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:28:29 PM PDT

    •  Are you joking (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy, erush1345

      It is difficult to believe that people actually believe that this is true, no matter how progressive one is.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:37:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In order to get that rich... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        88kathy, Dirtandiron, shaharazade

        ...you have to be a sociopath.  Ayn Rand had a mad crush on a serial killer.  She modeled the main character of The Fountainhead after him...

      •  You think the Kochs have hearts of gold? That (4+ / 0-)

        they and others in their class don't get off on knowing what kind of suffering they are causing? How about Blankfein and Blankenship and their posse of professional sneerers?

        To be "progressive" does not require one to be blind to human nature.

        "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

        by jm214 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:21:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy, erush1345

          I have no data about how they "feel" about anything, what they "get off" on, etc. Do you?

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:48:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, you got nothing. I can kind of observe how (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            88kathy, stcroix cheesehead

            people behave, what they write in their ALEC documents, all that stuff. Data? Even "Data" there on Star Trek found that insight and empathy made a whole lot of difference to understanding reality at the human level.

            "None so blind as those who refuse to see..."

            "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

            by jm214 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:15:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  As for Empathy (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stcroix cheesehead, Hirodog

            the Haves Have Not

            THE SOURCE “Social Class, Contextualism, and Empathic Accuracy,” by Michael W. Kraus, Stéphane Côté and Dacher Keltner, Psychological Science.

            an interesting side note from article

            In an apocryphal but oft-cited exchange, Hemingway supposed the rich to be different only because they had more money. But, as Fitzgerald rather presciently wrote in his story “Rich Boy,” because the wealthy “possess and enjoy early, it does something to them,” surmising, “They are different from you and me.” Score one for Scott.

            Check out this link that is in turn linked to many studies which tend to support my premise.  Linky

            . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

            by 88kathy on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:16:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  No I am not joking. I do believe it is true. (0+ / 0-)

        My daughter told me how shocked she was sitting on her boyfriend's grandparents' porch having lemonade while workers worked in the field.  She thought it was no accident and that their enjoyment was enhanced because of the disparity.  She didn't end up in that family.  Yahoo.

        Cheerleaders are famous for torturing the short bus riders.

        . . . from Julie, Julia. "Oh, well. Boo-hoo. Now what?"

        by 88kathy on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:44:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  the rich are not motivated by money (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy

      They already have more money than they could possibly spend in ten lifetimes.

      On the other hand, greed is a fat demon with a small mouth, and no matter how much you feed it, it's never enough.

  •  Yep! It's a massacre (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action

    of us by them.

  •  Excellent Diary. Rec'ed just for headline. (4+ / 0-)

    You know, I think Dems forgot how much class war did in fact help Obama.  But it was not class war initiated by the Dems (unfortunatley), but accidently by the media.  It was my impression that when McCain was questioned on the houses he owned and could not answer, a blow was struck against him in terms of class conflict and wealth.  He was revealed as a faux man of the people.

    He could not from that point invoke the meme of the republican who is authentic and of the people.  A image the gopers so deftly created about Bush the Jr.  If the Dems had gone after Bush for his wealth and connections, a different story methings.  (One of thee most powerful segments of Moore's F9-11 was Bush calling rich people his base.)

    And it was my impression that the moment turned for Obama who was not precived as being rich, and was not attacked by gopers for being rich using their version of class war.

    The meme of class war does in fact work.  The gopers have successfully used it to raise class discontent among middle and lower class whites for a long time.  You know, the reason your life is hard is because of the rich limo liberals.  Pure class warfare, but form the other end.

    But here is the thing.  The national party is too chickshit and gutless to play it.  Good on WI to go there, and rightly so.

  •  Perfect point here: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkmich
    For the past 40 years, the outcomes of the political battles in this war have almost always approximated the forthcoming debt ceiling deal. Stuff for low and middle-income people gets cut. Stuff for big corporations and the wealthy gets protected.

    Who doesn't see this as the most perfect point here?  The rich have an enormous number of lobbyists that have one goal...which is to get the legislators in the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate to vote on legislation that will be advantageous to them regardless of the damage to our country or the very government that is in place to protect our citizens.  

    I want to see candidates that are willing to eliminate the lobbyists.  They have only one goal and that goal, for the most part, is not for the betterment of the majority of our country's citizens.  Sure, there are exceptions where there are lobbyists that are in D.C. to try to fight against the well-funded capitalist lobby folks...but, they pale in comparison, to be honest.  

    IMO.

    -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

    by r2did2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:39:11 PM PDT

  •  Ending polarization by moving right (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkmich

    I'm coming to the conclusion that Democrats have settled on the goal of ending polarization in the country and the strategy of forcing everything to the right to accomplish. The strategy seems "we win by you winning and we declare victory because we've stopped fighting you." Since we know Republican ideas don't work, we have to wonder how the economy will get fixed and what will happen to the millions of people who will lose needed benefits that used to be though of as pretty main stream, but now have been settled on as too left wing to mention. Maybe the answer is that it just doesn't matter to those in power. Eventually, the great needs of the majority of people will overpower the country (and the world) and the younger generations, and generations not yet born, will have to re-fight the fights of the 20th Century. The world is a cycle and this probably happens over and over again.

    Using my free speech while I still have it. http://www.ellenofthetenth.blogspot.com/

    by ebgill on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:41:26 PM PDT

  •  It's not class war; it's standing up for (8+ / 0-)

    our rights.  Republican stewards of the public purse are no different than the unjust steward in the parable, when he wrote down his master's debtors debts so they'd cushion his landing when he got sacked.

    Well, actually, there's a slight difference.  In addition to giving public assets to their rich friends, our unjust stewards finagle the law so their cronies get to legally steal what they don't already get.

    The transfer of public assets to the top one percent did not happen by chance; it was by design.  And, while the results have been less than stellar, collapsing the the economy was just another step by people for whom enough is never enough.  It's this lack of self-restraint which makes them fail and which is why an intervention is needed in our and their best interest.

    http://www.youtube.com/cyprespond

    by hannah on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:42:43 PM PDT

    •  But the diarist wants to sell that as "class war." (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      erush1345

      There are a lot of ways that one can talk about economic issues.  This diarist is saying that the best way to do so is to frame issues in terms of class conflict.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:00:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right. Democrats are really good at (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shockwave

        accepting conservative frames and then wonder why their arguments don't register.  It is strange to talk about classes warring in a classless society.  Never mind that conservatives are particularly short on behavior that could be called high class or anywhere near to superior.  
        It's true that conservatives are wanna be elites, but, at best, they're a clique whose exclusive behavior masks their insecurity. If designating them as a class actually made them feel better, it might be worth it.  But, the clique is mostly defensive and their obnoxious behavior is designed to keep people away.  Warring with a bunch of pansies hardly seems worth the effort.  

        http://www.youtube.com/cyprespond

        by hannah on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:40:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  How Do You Suggest Framing It? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shockwave, PhilK

        as "nice, honest people" against "greedy, not nice people"?

        as I've indicated here before, the time for "playing nice" has long past.

        Greed and selfishness have grown to a sort of dangerousl, psychosis level in our nation.  One doesn't "reason" with a psychotic person-- it appears many people here actually believe one can.

        "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

        by Superpole on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:47:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think he's saying (0+ / 0-)

        their is a class war and that populist movement is needed to  stop the by-partisan ruling class from winning the future. More to it then 'economic issues' it's the whole agenda the whole concept of economic inequality and Democratic principles and run amok unregulated capitalism being the inevitable future.

        A future that exists to globally establish a new world order wherein people and the common good and workers all are just a profit loss or losers. Their is no common good no morality no democracy, in this viscous brand of capitalism and it's not democratic or representational. It does seem to be the end of the Democratic party that is now ascendant and running our politics in DC.    

  •  Too much (2+ / 0-)

    piled against the people.  The media is one of the biggest problems - look how often thousands of people have marched and there is no media coverage.  I think the Murdoch scandal may be the key to break into open warfare.  As it becomes increasingly clear to not just those of us paying attention, but to the rest of the country just how much manipulation has gone on, we may see a patch of blue sky.

    Pretty sure the other big media will be all over Murdoch, and pretty sure that as he loses more money and power Murdoch will sling mud back.   Possible opening.

  •  And every time the right wing whines... (14+ / 0-)

    ...you're making this all about class warfare, they need to be reminded that we rank-and-file American didn't start it, we're engaged in self-defense.

    Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:50:37 PM PDT

    •  Every time the they whine, it means its working. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      When you see someone who has gone on TV to talk about "the Ground Zero mosque" or "Obama the elitist" complain about demagoguery, it means he's scared.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:02:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  One possible reply not to do is to deny it. (4+ / 0-)

      Responses should be sorta like Warren Buffet's response which was to acknoweldge the reality of class war and then quite frankly point a finger at those who wage it in the gop.

      Like as in "Of course there is class war.  The CEO of GE just laid off 10K Americans to make himself richer."

      Or something to that affect.  Too many Dems in leadership have run away from the theme because they are in fact rich or lackies of the corporate classes so will not go there.  And if they wanted to, they may well remember what happened to John Edwards who was skewered by the right, the media lackies, and gladly ignored when he brought up issues of wealth and class.

       He was skewered as the rich boy who was in fact not authentic and who could not propose solutions for the working poor because he was rich.  Only the authentic republican comman guy could do that.

  •  Nothing is what it seems. (2+ / 0-)

    If you don't stand for something, eventually you stand for nothing.

    by dkmich on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:51:06 PM PDT

    •  Regardless of what some may catagorize (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buckybadger1988, dkmich

      as a worldwide elite group running everything, like the Koch Bros and ALEC, we should know what the Trilateral Commission is and what it does.

      The link tells us who in the Obama administration is also a member of the Trilateral Commission.

      I had no idea about this until today.

      What I was trying to find out is whether Uncle Rupert has any alliance with Koch/ALEC or not.  He may not, but people who work for him do.

      Just knowing the relationships is helpful.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

      Science is hell bent on consensus. Dr. Michael Crichton said “Let’s be clear: The work of science has nothing to do with consensus... which is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right,”

      by Regina in a Sears Kit House on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 04:01:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tens of millions of poor and low-income (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erush1345

    people vote straight ticket GOP and/or Tea Party. Meanwhile, a huge number of wealthy entrepreneurs and Wall Streeters are ardent and generous Democrats. This is not a war between the classes, it is a war between people of differing worldviews.

    I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

    by doc2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 01:56:28 PM PDT

    •  Yep, all 100 of them. n.t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      If you don't stand for something, eventually you stand for nothing.

      by dkmich on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:02:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  False consciousness on the part the .... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron, stevej

      ...oppressed is nothing new. And a few of the wealthy have always been financiers of revolutions. (Not that Democrats are revolutionaries.) You've got to dig deeper than people's voting habits and their party allegiances.

      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:07:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why? My social circle is all (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buckybadger1988

        in the top 1%. And yet 80% of my friends will not only vote for people who promise to raise their taxes, they generously give to them. Barack Obama got far more $25,000 checks than did McCain. And John Kerry did very well amongst big-ticket donors. The DSCC and DCCC and DNC each have hundreds of donors that max out.

        Yet our efforts are canceled by a bunch of Christ-loving yokels and Joe the Plumbers who vote to elect reactionary right-wingers. Doesn't look like a class war from where I sit.

        I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

        by doc2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:27:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  remember the IWW's "Mr Block"? (0+ / 0-)

        There have always been lots of blockheads. (shrug)

    •  Propaganda works. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron, Hirodog

      Well, the right wing world view is constantly being messaged not only in the mass media, but in business schools, high school classes on economics, daily talk shows, churches, self help financial books, newspapers, you name it.

      The Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci gave it a term--cultural hegemony.  

  •  It's amazing that getting billionaires ... (4+ / 0-)

    ... to pay the same proportion of their income in taxes as people who earn $150k counts as class warfare (which makes it immediately taboo in the eyes of the mainstream media)! (The basic facts that the MSM hides from most of us.)

  •  if only that graph were read by every voter (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
    I am a volunteer for Bob Massie for MA-Sen

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:11:01 PM PDT

  •  Rich and Powerful people in Washington, D.C. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erush1345

    Let's be sure we know who these people are.  Yep...they include a large number of republicans.  But, they ALSO include a large number of democrats.

    If anyone here doesn't think that a great many democrats...very rich democrats...get money from the lobbyists from rich and powerful corporations and don't have big ties to rich individual donors with legislative needs to favor them, they're just ignorant.

    If we just go after the republican "richies", then we're just ignoring the truth of what truly happens in D.C. politics....with BOTH parties.

    Let's get our own party to be proactive and not accept campaign money from rich donors that they are then beholden to.  Can we do that?  

    I think not.  That would give the repubs a huge advantage.  So...therein lies the problem.  Anyone want to take away the Union donations to democratic candidates?  Of course not.  Anyone want to take away the union lobbyists?  Of course not.  Anyone think that repubs don't have donors and lobbyists on the other side of the political spectrum?  Of course not.

    This is politics in America.  Unless this changes...nothing changes. Someone argue that.  

    -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

    by r2did2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:11:52 PM PDT

  •  The "New Normal" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron

    7% of workers are in unions.  Many of them vote GOP and many are Tea Party.  The Tea Party people where I live mostly have government pensions.  They think they are smarter and more moral than the rest of us.  "Don't pay taxes" is a meme that worked even before it was a religion.
    We lost badly in 2010.  It is costing us big-time and will take many years to reverse.  BUT even when Clinton was being impeached, the voters reelected him.  The GOP could not have been more over-reaching with the call to destroy medicare, medicaid and privatize social security.   I'm willing to stick with Obama in 2012 provided nothing even worse happens.  I know the corporations/GOP are destroying everything I hold dear including basic democracy.   There are smart people here at DK who can do better than the Democratic Party's past history of being polite and ineffective.  I support move-on, USUncut.  I try to "work it" every day every way I can especially locally in my own Tea Party backyard.

    •  You're gonna hate this LillithMc (0+ / 0-)

      Okay...so ya have the "New Normal, "Tea Party", "meme", "Clinton impeached", "move on" words/phrases down pat.

      Whatch got to present other than what's been presented just so many times before?

      Why am I so condescending here on this?  Because we need good ideas...new and innovative thought here.  Anyone and everyone can post stuff that will get "recs" because they're saying stuff we all know and believe and support.

      We need to get ourselves involved in action against all of that stuff.  Get the point?

      -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

      by r2did2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:25:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the tea partiers you speak of (0+ / 0-)

      the government pensioners

      will have a very different tune when the government ends their pensions

      yes, they are thick, but pocketbook issues are real attention-getters

      those people you speak of should be with us and, i predict, they will for the most part

      they just have to know to redirect their anger towards the plutocrats who are the actual villains instead of the boogeymen concocted by right wing operatives

      that can happen

      please be advised that nothing in this comment should be construed as an endorsement of a third-party or third-party candidate

      by wbgonne on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 04:31:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They'll blame the Kenyan. nt (0+ / 0-)

        Recall - DONE! VOTE against the fakes - DONE! VOTE TO TAKE WISCONSIN BACK!!! Rescind. Rebuild.

        by stcroix cheesehead on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 05:01:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  for a time (0+ / 0-)

          but that won't cure their misery

          it will only add to it

          so i expect the blame-the-kenyan  to end

          really, at this point even a couple of the teapertiers must be beginning to realize that obama isn't a socialist

          please be advised that nothing in this comment should be construed as an endorsement of a third-party or third-party candidate

          by wbgonne on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 05:07:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  We have 2 parties: (4+ / 0-)

    The Corrupt Party
    Everyone Else Party.

    The Corrupt Party has all the power, but very few bodies. The Everyone Else party has to start using its one asset. Put people on the lawns of the WH and every statehouse. Do not let up; take it in shifts, and dig in for the long siege.

    How far to the right do the Dems have to move before you stop calling them Dems?

    by Diebold Hacker on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:16:28 PM PDT

    •  I Sort of Wish Minnesota Would Have Drug (0+ / 0-)

      on longer (the gov't shutdown).

      AM I the only one here that noticed the lack of beer and cigarettes in MN was starting to become a big problem-- thus proving my oft made position here: it's all about the goods.

      Of course MN residents could have simply crossed state lines to feed their "legal" addictions, but I believe there are some laws regarding that practice.

      It would have been instructive to see the reaction of MN residents had their ability to purchase cigs and beer  been hampered long term.

      "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

      by Superpole on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:41:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Right on target (0+ / 0-)

    But don't count on the Democratic Party to be your champion.  There are some weasels in the Democratic Party as well.  Our President is a border line Republican.

    "The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and nature." -- Rianne Eisler

    by noofsh on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:16:40 PM PDT

  •  End Bush Tax Cuts: 78% For on CNN.com (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hirodog

    Not a scientific poll at all, but 78% to 22% is pretty overwhelming support.  A whole bunch of middle class teabaggers making $70,000 are suddenly wondering exactly what it is they voted for.   They didn't agree to have their Social Security cut to pay for Bush's tax cuts.

    Democrats need to start screaming "End the Bush tax cuts to balance the budget" and they need to start doing it now.  Because that's what the people want at this point.  Revenue increases need to go back on the table and let the GOP tell middle class America to suffer for the rich.

    Tell those teabaggers to vote their wallets.

  •  Spot On Chris. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buckybadger1988

    Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, Collective Bargaining, Public Education, et al are tools to fairly distribute the wealth of the nation so that anyone has the opportunity to advance on a level playing field.

    To take it away is unfair and Anti-American however, this is exactly what the Republicans have done over the past generation.  

    It is time to stand up and rebel.  When Republicans act shocked that we are playing the class warfare card, stand up and tell them 'But it's True'.  Programs are being threatened because the Republicans have been engaging in class warfare to destroy Our American Opportunity.  

    You hit the nail on the head.  Liberals keep calling it class warfare, bluntly, without sugar coating, then I think we can win.  I but only wait for the Democratic establishment picks up the theme.  I fear that this will not happen with only some few exceptions.

    ... the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country - when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right." - Carl Schurz; Oct. 17, 1899

    by NevDem on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:27:11 PM PDT

  •  R'd! We Need a "12 Step Program".... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron

    "Hi, my name is Joe X., and I don't believe we have a class problem in the United States".

    on another important issue: "Hi, my name is Joe X., and I don't believe global warming is real".

    and so on.

    The diarist is SPOT ON. I would qualify a bit; we can't fight/win a class war UNTIL we admit we have a class problem, and this has been a problem since the beginning of our nation.

    great to see this issue finally get to the front page at dKos. segues somewhat nicely with an earlier diary today finally admitting the wealthy class use the media as a propaganda tool (like this is some big revelation.)

    finally, if we are to be at all serious about this, we have to get creative with the tools and realize the resources (money) required to address the problem.

    "I don't feel the change yet". Velma Hart

    by Superpole on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:35:38 PM PDT

  •  A horrible truth (0+ / 0-)
    The rich and powerful people in DC are making these cuts in order to pay for tax breaks they recently gave to rich people and large corporations.

    Obama agreed to continue the Bush-era tax cuts to the rich.

    We need better than this.  We can blame the "other side" all we want on this...but, we're not being truthful about it when we do that.

    Time "WE" let our democratic president and his minions and those in both houses of congress that we aren't going to stand for them "going along" with the wishes of the right.

    WAY past time.

    -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

    by r2did2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:50:13 PM PDT

    •  in the class war, the Dems are not on our side. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      r2did2, PhilK

      Haven't been since the 70's.

      Sad, but true nevertheless.

      •  Dems like we here are on our side, Lenny (0+ / 0-)

        Dems in congress (both houses) aren't.  There seems to be zero difference between the repub and dem representatives in our legislatures.  They're F A R more interested in their own survival...they're own re-election...than those that got them there in the first place.

        Yep...there a few exceptions...but, "few" is the operative word here.

        -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

        by r2did2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:34:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  zero difference? Nah. (0+ / 0-)

          Here in WI:

          Russ Feingold  vs. Ron Johnson
          Tammy Baldwin vs. Paul Ryan
          Almost any democrat vs. James Sensenbrenner

          Ron Kind? meh, OK, there I agree with you.

          Recall - DONE! VOTE against the fakes - DONE! VOTE TO TAKE WISCONSIN BACK!!! Rescind. Rebuild.

          by stcroix cheesehead on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:39:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, I get that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stcroix cheesehead

            Cheesehead (love the ID name...born in Madison...but only lived there for 6 months before family moved to Calif.).......I get that there are exceptions to what I've posted.  Wisconsin is a HUGE bright spot for us...for me for sure.  

            Not gonna argue with you on this one.  Go get 'em, guys.

            -- **Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.**

            by r2did2 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:44:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I would submit that "Dems like we" are not really (0+ / 0-)

          Dems at all---we're socialists who simply don't like the word "socialist".

          But you are right--virtually nobody in either party who actually holds any power, is on our side.  Haven't been since the 70's.  Probably never will be, unless we force them.

          When Markos was babbling for years that street action is counterproductive and useless, he was flat-out wrong.  But then, what can one expect--he's just a youngster who wasn't even alive back when street actions changed the entire social makeup of the US.  ;)

  •  Class and corruption fight is revolutionary (0+ / 0-)

    Reasonable people whose interests simply are bound up in a sense of justice and rights for the common working man can only fight against Class and Corruption from a revolutionary position. In the past people who fit into this category were content to accept the label of "progressive" or "liberal". However in 21st century America we are finding out fast that the old divisions are not applicable in a fight against the old enemies of class discrimination and corruption. We no longer can expect political parties to honor their respective "plank" declarations when they are in or out of office. Such "planks" have given way to various opinions of what is the respective party's prevailing ideology.

    The Wisconsin model shows us that common folk have to organize themselves either with or without political party support and go into the streets and fight to elect their own representatives in order to secure their respective piece of the government pie. In the past progressive/liberals have used the Democratic Party to provide "proxy" representatives who pledged to support our respective viewpoint on the issues in government in return for our vote.

    This is where apathy and corruption crept in and compromised the effectively of this model of mutual association. (This is the situation in Congress rather than in currently in Wisconsin.) Corruption in Congress is not exclusively in the form of huge campaign contributions from lobbyists. It is more prevalent in the chairmanships of the various Congressional committees and worth considerably more politically within the respective party caucus. It has been well demonstrated since President Obama took office how the influence of the internal attraction provided the power positions within the Congressional committees, coupled with pressure from various lobby groups can produce a vote completely contrary to the overwhelming wishes of the people.

    As common everyday working Americans we will have to roll up our sleeves and have an "American Spring" political revolution if we want to hold onto our rights provided by the Constitution. Nothing else will work against the current American plutocratic oligarchy save a population comprised of inflexible principled determined people on a revolutionary mission.

  •  OMG! Class Warfare? How can we (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MrWebster

    compromise if we wage class warfare? Get the fainting couch for those currently running the national party!!!! We can't have no stinking class warfare!! What will the Republicans think????

    So what if it's an effective strategy that points up all of the issues?? The Republicans won't give us a chance to compromise if we wage class warfare!!!!

    < /snark >

    "Repeatedly he [Voltaire] dwelt on the folly and credulousness of the masses and the selfishness and unscrupulousness of the ruling few." 'nuff said.

    by caseynm on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 02:52:35 PM PDT

  •  I think it goes beyond class (if income designates (0+ / 0-)

    one's class...and it doesn't as far as I'm concerned).  

    I would classify it (or frame it)  more as a fight for democracy or morality.     Giving all our money to the corporations and the wealthiest doesn't do diddly squat for our nation, our people, our Earth.  

     We have seen how much the Bush tax cuts trickled down...on...not us ....but China... where people can now make IPads for $1 dollar an hour.   The reason I won't buy one despite lusting in my heart.  

    "I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." Richard Feynman

    by leema on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 03:00:21 PM PDT

    •  class was never based on income--it's based on (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hirodog

      how one makes one's income.  People who work for their income, are in one class.  People who hire others to work for their income for them, are in another class.

      Me, I have always referred to the fight as "economic democracy", because that's what it is---taking the economic power out of the hands of an unelected self-interested tiny minority, and giving economic power to the elected representatives of the majority in the interests of everyone.

  •  I'm curious---is it still DKos policy to kick out (0+ / 0-)

    class-struggle commies on sight?

    Or have we changed that policy in the light of cold hard reality?

  •  Class War (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PhilK

    Our Harvard educated millionaire President is certainly fighting a class war, but it's against us and for the rich and powerful. He's all into cutting spending on middle class programs and SS and Medicare and Medicaid. He's the enemy whether all the football like fans who support him regardless of what he does wake up to his reality. If we all have to suffer a Walker in the WH to get people to realize what Republicans and Democrats seem more than willing to do to us, than so be it. Otherwise Obama if reelected will continue on his merry way and will as he's indicated he wants to do, he'll gut SS and Medicare in the name of being an adult. Wow.

    •  Disagree. (4+ / 0-)
      If we all have to suffer a Walker in the WH to get people to realize what Republicans and Democrats seem more than willing to do to us, than so be it.

      Living here in Wisconsin I can tell you we don't want that. Republicans here are shamelessly rigging the system for what they hope will be the next 50 years.  

      I truly fear what would happen if republicans at the national level tried the same. Can you imagine

      Loss of voter rights
      Loss of equal protection for women
      Loss of minimum wage & 40 hour workweek
      National dismantling of public education
      Effective abolition of labor unions that remain
      Abolition of environmental protection
      Abolition of child labor laws
      Legalized discrimination of gays and lesbians

      And laws that curtail the ability of states to try to ameliorate these changes.

      You may think I'm going all hysteric.  Most of these changes have been proposed and partially implemented in Wisconsin, to the extent that federal law allows.

      Obama isn't getting my money or my work.  That is going to local Democrats who have my back.  But he is getting my vote. We've seen the alternative, and it's frightening.

      Recall - DONE! VOTE against the fakes - DONE! VOTE TO TAKE WISCONSIN BACK!!! Rescind. Rebuild.

      by stcroix cheesehead on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 05:11:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nice job of listing all the garbage that Walker (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cady Brownell

        has provided us with.  Those of us who live here who have been waking up each day to a different one of those things in the headlines understand exactly what you're talking about.  You are not hysterical, it is the bizarro world we have voted in here.

        •  And still I forgot one. (0+ / 0-)

          Restricting access to the courts.

          The first thing that came down - "tort reform".  If you don't have money, you can't get access to the legal system.

          Recall - DONE! VOTE against the fakes - DONE! VOTE TO TAKE WISCONSIN BACK!!! Rescind. Rebuild.

          by stcroix cheesehead on Sun Jul 17, 2011 at 05:45:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I think we are winning in Wisconsin. Here's why: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cady Brownell, MrWebster, LillithMc

    We are not winning as far as unions or wages, that is obvious to anyone who has been following what has happened here. But there has been a huge awakening.
    People are motivated. People don't believe that Fox news tells the truth anymore. Mainstream media keeps saying stuff like "the unions or the left" as if they are the same. No, wrong, progressives, or the left are completely different than the unions. The average person is now aware of what is going on.  The author thinks we're winning in Wisconsin because of all the volunteering and contributions people have made. I have no idea how campaigns normally work, but under the surface in Wisconsin, there is a buzz of electrifying engagement in changing the local political scene here. I do not think people will give up, even if a recall election here or there is lost.  

    Maybe in other states people have the luxury to tell themselves that the Republicans are just about trying to balance the budget. We don't have that luxury, we have seen what they are like.

  •  We have to demand better or we'll never get it! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buckybadger1988

    We have to start by demanding honest people to vote for who are on our side. Yes we need to take to the streets by the millions. It's the only thing that will work. We have the entire Internet to organize like the people in other countries but we don't.

    At the very least we can start by contacting all our local Reps and demand no cuts to SS, Medicaid, Medicare or any programs that help the poor.

    Find and contact all your elected officials:

    http://www.usa.gov/...

    We also have to contact all Progressive organizations like MoveOn, Bold Progressives, CREDO and contact the few Progressive TV and radio shows and the DCCC and tell them we will not vote for Republican Obama. We have to demand a real Progressive/Liberal who is on our side and not the side of the top 2% only to vote for. We need to these organizations furthermore; we will not support them, by making phone calls or signing their petitions and most of all by sending them donations if they do not give us someone to challenge Obama in 2012.

    My choice would be Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren but I'm open to other honest, Progressives/Liberals and yes I know Sanders is a Socialist but WTF is wrong with wanting fairness in this country and that is all Sanders wants.

  •  American Dream (0+ / 0-)

    Most Americans don't feel animosity towards the rich.  We tend to celebrate the lifestyles of the rich and famous and want to be rich ourselves.

    So long as everyone feels that they have a shot at opportunity and there remains a promise of possibility that through self-reliance and individual initiative that we can obtain a level of success, most can accept the disparity of wealth.  

    The problems tend to arise when the greed of those with the wealth and political influence seek to dismantle the very foundations in place that create the middle class, when opportunity is unavailable and people no longer believe that the American Dream is possible.

    •  I call this the "Lottery Mentality" (0+ / 0-)
      So long as everyone feels that they have a shot at opportunity and there remains a promise of possibility that through self-reliance and individual initiative that we can obtain a level of success, most can accept the disparity of wealth.  

      Under the American mythology, everyone assumes that they too can be rich if they just work hard and save. Just as everyone buys a lottery ticket thinking they too can win the big jackpot.

      Alas, as with the lottery, they never win.

  •  'Class Warfare'? You're God Damn Right. (0+ / 0-)

    My stock answer any wingnut gins up a mighty display of hand-wringing faux outrage and accuses me of engaging in "Class Warfare."

    The problem is, we haven't been ENGAGING in it.

    Hey, I was around in the Sixties.

    You ain't seen nothin' yet.

  •  This is a great ad (0+ / 0-)

    And we need to run some ads like it against the dems themselves where applicable.  No need to see the dems flush our gains away.  Let us put all pols on the hot seat.

    As you say, in a class war we need to really fight.

    boycott Koch = don't buy Northern TP

    by glitterscale on Mon Jul 18, 2011 at 07:07:31 AM PDT

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