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As increasing numbers of Arab citizens join the social justice protests, working cooperatively with Israeli Jews on common political goals, the principal of separation is slowly eroding in Israel.

To be clear before I begin: my personal desire is for a resolution between Israeli Jews and Palestinians such that two separate states are formed for two distinct peoples.

Strangely enough, though, many things that I stand firmly against, such as the occupation of the territories, is built upon this exact same principle: that of separation.

In Israel right now, despite the bombs and rockets falling everywhere, we're seeing a startling, stark reality: this principle of separation is slowly, unintentionally, falling away. The examples are endless as Palestinians have begun to weave themselves into the fabric of the protests. Not – as Dimi Reider of 972 Magazine notes – as an oppositional entity. Rather, they are joining cooperatively, championing the same economic and social demands that Israeli Jews are rallying and marching about. And they are doing so largely with open arms from Israeli Jews.

Reider, whose article first sparked my thinking on this matter, notes one of the most remarkable examples (emphasis mine):

[recently] residents of the Jewish poverty-stricken neighborhood of Hatikva, many of them dyed-in-the-wool Likud activists, signed a covenant of cooperation with the Palestinian and Jewish Jaffa protesters, many of them activists with Jewish-Palestinian Hadash and nationalist-Palestinian Balad. They agreed they had more in common with each other than with the middle class national leadership of the protest, and that while not wishing to break apart from the J14 movement, they thought their unique demands would be better heard if they act together. At the rally, they marched together, arguing bitterly at times but sticking to each other, eventually even chanting mixed Hebrew and Arabic renditions of slogans from Tahrir.
Protest for social justice, Tel aviv, Israel, 6/8/2011.
Protesters with a sign in Tel Aviv that reads "Egypt is Here."

Michal Levertov has also written of the increasing participation of Arab citizens in Israel's protests as a way to advocate for rights within their country. She brings the example of an Arab encampment near Haifa and its rather seamless integration into the main protests:

Shahin Nassar, a 25-year-old student and journalist, founded an encampment in Wadi Nisnas, an Arab neighbourhood in the northern city of Haifa, on August 4 after participating in a rally in a Jewish neighbourhood where he was disappointed by the lack of any substantial Arab attendance.

“This protest is definitely mine too, and it is for me to determine its nature and its goals,” he said. “Any achievement, whether it is reducing housing costs or electricity prices, will benefit the Arab population just as much. Of course, we are in a unique position, and nobody denies it: we are an integral part of the Palestinian people. But just the same, we are an integral part of the state of Israel.

Not only has there been immense cooperation between the Wadi Nisnas encampment and others in Jewish neighbourhoods of Haifa, but Nassar sees an opportunity to convince the Israelis who so heartily support the call for social justice to back the Arab struggle for equality.

“The only disputed topic are the [West Bank] settlements, which is not surprising as there are left-wingers and right-wingers among both the Jewish and the Arab protesters,” he said. “Other than that, we agree on all the demands of the protests. Moreover, while each city sends only one representative to the protesters’ national meetings, Haifa’s Jewish activists insisted that Haifa would send two: one from the Jewish encampments and one from ours. They wanted to make sure that we too will be a part of the central assembly [an ad-hoc coordination committee for the nationwide protests].

This increasing participation among Arabs in the social justice protests – and their increasing inclusion as speakers by protest leaders at rallies and demonstrations – is evidence that this separation principle has been eroded by the needs of the moment. But a moment is powerful, and the protests ongoing in Israel are seeing unprecedented (and growing) numbers of moments in which Israeli Jews and Palestinians are converging for a common cause not centered around the occupation (ironically).

We are reaching a geographic tipping point in the West Bank where, soon, there will not be land enough to create a contiguous Palestinian state. And while I don't think we've reached that point yet, there are those who have already proclaimed a two-state solution dead. Reza Aslan did so on NPR last year. As did Mya Guarnieri. As have a host of thinkers, pointing to the fact that, in essence, with nearly 500,000 Israeli Jews living in the territories under the auspices of Israel's government in Jerusalem, a single state has already been established to a large degree.

As Reider notes, "Israel-Palestine today is, for all intents and purposes, a single political entity, with a single de-facto sovereign – the government in Jerusalem." The problem, of course, is that those living within this political entity, Israel and the West Bank, don't share identical rights an opportunities, a fact due to the principal of separation that is at odds with the reality of the occupation itself (despite being driven precisely by it).

I do not think we have reached a point in which two states cannot be formed. However, if the status quo continues for another few years, with Palestinian lands slowly being subsumed by the settlements, there will no longer be a practical way to form Palestine from what's left.

A negotiated settlement, soon, is needed to save the chance for a two-state solution. A settlement that appears more and more unlikely as time goes by and we approach September 20, when the PA will try to attain statehood through the UN.

If that fails, which it likely will in the Security Council, and if no negotiated settlement is ever achieved over time, the only option will be, at some stage, one state. No other options will remain at that point.

The one bright spot: Israel's social justice protests have shown that such an end might not be as catastrophic as many have projected, myself included.

Follow me on Twitter @David_EHG

Author's Note: This piece doesn't even touch Gaza. Don't ask. I don't know how the Strip fits into this, and it likely doesn't, as it's become an entity unto itself with regard to the topic of this diary.

Originally posted to Writing by David Harris Gershon on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 08:55 PM PDT.

Also republished by Eyes on Egypt and the Region.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Very mixed feelings about this. I've been (6+ / 0-)

      hearing this idea for a while (but not in the context of the protests).  
      I really have to take many steps back and consider it -- which I've avoided doing.
      But I figure if I have trouble, and I'm pretty leftist and open to the Palestinian cause, then most people in my (older) generation would be utterly opposed to it.  However, younger people, people my daughter's age (in their 20's) might be less negative.
      One issue -- I remember back from my sociology grad school days that a society with 2 big populations is much less likely to meld than one with a single population or one with lots of cross-cutting groups.  So I have to wonder if a single state would always be at war within itself.  I also wonder whether Palestinians, Ethiopian and darker skinned Jews would be kept in underclass status.  Whereas a Palestinian state would allow more social mobility at least for the Palestinians.

      If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

      by Tamar on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:53:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  as someone approximately (10+ / 0-)

        in your daughter's age group, I am definitely not ok with a one state outcome.  It denies two peoples the right of self determination, not to mention a receipie for perpetual conflict and possible civil war.

        What is needed is a Jewish and democratic Israel at approximately the '67 borders alongside a Palestinian state.

        •  Was going to say the same thing. (9+ / 0-)

          I sure don't feel too young these days, but I'm 'only' 32 in a few weeks...


          Concur.  And very well said.

        •  which is why I said "might" be less negative. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fizziks, PeterHug

          I would guess that my younger daughter's Hebrew & Sunday school teachers, all in their 20's, would not be in favor of it at all.  (and it's a Reform temple)

          My husband is with you on this, I'm sure -- he's said it many times.  I'm a little more open to it, but the idea hurts.  

          If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

          by Tamar on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 11:14:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  there you have nailed one of the Gordian Knots (5+ / 0-)

          precisely: exactly what does "approximately the 67 borders" really mean?  I am reminded of an old joke about Begin and defensible borders that when he spoke of defensible borders for Israel, he was not referring to the Dardanelles.  He was referring to the English Channel.  I forget what political situation made the Dardanelles relevant to the joke

        •  About that (6+ / 0-)
          It denies two peoples the right of self determination, not to mention a receipie for perpetual conflict and possible civil war.

          The settlers would cause a civil war at any attempt to remove them, and the government keeps authorizing more settlement housing.  Take a look at a map of the West Bank as it now is and show where a Palestinian state could go.

          You might ask the government why it is denying two peoples the right of self-determination.  It has appeared to me that the state of Israel is intent on suicide.

          When shit happens, you get fertilized.

          by ramara on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 07:19:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That entirely depends on how you define (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          capelza, stargaze, sturunner, Rusty Pipes

          self-determination.  Most democratic nations manage to have self-determination and manage to have multiple ethnic groups within its borders.  

          For example, France used to be a conglomerate of various ethnic groups, all not considered to be French because "French" was defined as anyone living inside the borders of France.  People in the south of France are very different from Parisians.  Look at Spain - there is not one dominant ethnic group inside of this.

          Israel needs to look outside of its traditional views of what it means to be Israeli, and change this definition to be a national identity instead of a religious/ethnic one.  Being Jewish and being Israeli does not need to be synonymous.   And doing so excludes the 20% of Israelis that are not Jewish.

      •  One-state solution: Peace & Harmony (5+ / 0-)

        Just like in Lebanon.

        [for the sarcastically challenged]

      •  as I remember Obama's commitment to a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Palestinian state was that it was to be contiguous, economically viable and sovereign.  ITMT I am seeing suggestions of a 3 state solution as some folks are pointing to the British partition of India led to two discrete Pakistans which were not viable as a single governmental unit.

        From reports on IBA TV it appears the government is even more obdurate in maintaining the status quo and increasing development in the OT as compared to meeting the demands of the protestors with the recent attacks used as justification for using any budgetary reconsideration as a instrument to increase IDF funding and to speed up missile defenses in the South

        •  Does being economically viable include (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mochajava13, PeterHug

          being able to control its own imports and exports, and its own borders?  We know that Gaza does not.  Does it mean being able to defend those borders?  How will a de-militarized Palestine defend its borders from incursions?  

          These questions are not even considered among the sticky ones.

          When shit happens, you get fertilized.

          by ramara on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 07:26:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  As events of the last week have shown (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, JNEREBEL, JayinPortland

            the bigger issue is whether a Palestinian state can control its borders (and population) to prevent excursions.  It was an excursion that led to this weeks incursions.

            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

            by Paul in Berkeley on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 08:32:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But Gaza doesn't (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, PeterHug, Lefty Coaster

              control its borders.  Israel does.  

              When shit happens, you get fertilized.

              by ramara on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 10:27:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe you have information, Paul, that I haven't (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes, PeterHug

              found yet - if so, kindly link to it so we all can see it. That is, who those people were, exactly and specifically, who shot up the buses and laid the buried explosives and how they got themelves and their arms where the attack occurred. Even NYT at this stage is only saying that the Israeli government believes that somebody in Gaza did it, without proof that I have found being cited, and that matter has been vanished away into the fog of matters not pursued in the brawl over IDF shooting Egyptian cops who were in Egypt when shot.

              And there is a teeny weeny practical problem with the 'excursion' issue.

              From JPost,  here, on the 20th of August,     came this:

              The fact that the PRC was behind the attacks on Thursday is another demonstration of how Hamas is losing control over the Gaza Strip as a growing number of terrorist groups – some affiliated with al-Qaida and global jihad elements – reject its authority and believe now is the time to begin escalating the front with Israel.

              At the same time, though, the IDF does not believe the PRC could have carried out such a sophisticated attack – which included a number of cells and close to two dozen heavily armed operatives – without Hamas knowing, atleast to some extent. For that reason, Israel ultimately holds Hamas responsible for the attack and the continued rocket fire into Israel.

              One of the purposes of the infamous blockade often tooted by certain  Israeli pols has been to weaken the  political control of Hamas in Gaza, so as perhaps to get someone else more amenable into governing position. That blockage seems to work better for spices and medicine than it does missiles, despite the proclamation that arms are all that is intended to be interdicted, as the last weekend indicates.

              Now, the alleged  and desired weakening of Hamas in Gaza has appeared, evidence being the unwillingness of some militants to honor the ceasefire which Hamas negotiated which was supposed to take effect on Sunday evening, Gaza time or perhaps Israeli time (they have a daylight savings disagreement, it seems),  and the consequence is that militants more militarily hostile and able  now having less control from Hamas and are now able to do what some of them did after the Bus Massacre, without Hamas being able to stop them.

              Apparently the pols who wanted so much control over Gaza without responsibility for the consequences, did not realize that weakening Hamas for some purposes might also weaken them for other purposes those doing the weakening did not intend. A second round of the same thinking, the first having been to encourage Hamas several decades ago as a counterweight to Fatah, and look what they got for that.

              Another example relevant here is the limitations in the Israeli Egyptian peace treaty which severely limited the military and police forces available for Egypt to use in northern Sinai, which meant fewer folk to deal with the smuggling and other issues that have appeared, including possibly the Bus Massacre, if anyone ever bothers to figure out literally who did it and how and when they got to where they did it.

              There are consequences of attempting to make Hamas so weak, and one of them  is the absence of a sufficiently strong police force to enforce little things like the ceasefire. One cannot both insist that Hamas or any other governing body be too weak to shoot at you, and also insist they be strong enough to keep other people from shooting at you. And now that the cat is out of the bag on what Hamas cannot do in Gaza, this ain't gonna get any easier.

      •  About that last sentence (0+ / 0-)

        It's not like there has been substantial social mobility for Syrians or Egyptians, so I don't think having a state of your own necessarily helps things.  

        Let us resolutely study and implement the resolutions of the 46th Convention of the Democratic Party!

        by Rich in PA on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 04:55:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hey Tamar...I had very mixed feelings writing it (6+ / 0-)

        as it's not what I've been working toward for all these years, and there are many examples just within Israel that would counter what I wrote above.

        But it's an observation I and others have begun to witness. At the very least, it should be noted that this cooperation between Jews and Arabs is positive.

        I'm "THE" Troubadour," and not "Troubadour" without the article. We're different people here at DK :)

        by David Harris Gershon on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 04:57:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have mixted feelings about One State too (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          But its the only real alternative to a permanent occupation regime IMHO.

          Plutocracy too long tolerated leaves democracy on the auction block, subject to the highest bidder ~ BILL MOYERS

          by Lefty Coaster on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 03:40:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I understood that you were observing, not (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          stating desired outcomes.  But it brought to a head lots of things I've been vaguely hearing -- first on Daily Kos about 2 years ago (that really was the first time I heard of a "unified" state), and then from friends and our daughter talking about the difficulty of having a contiguous viable Palestinian state.
          I think because of those problems, some right wingers who have opposed Palestinian independence in the past are now seeing it as the only way to make sure there continues to be a Jewish state.  But many of them, IMO, don't have any real interest in fairness or in Palestine being a viable state.  (if it descends into chaos, they can say -- see we told you those people couldn't run a country!).  
          In any case, my dismay was not at your interpretation but because of the way I see a plan for two states going down the tubes.  Ramara has a comment in here that says it very well:

          The more I learn, the more pessimistic I get.

          If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

          by Tamar on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 04:53:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I do not have a horse in this race... (0+ / 0-)

          the eventual solution to this slow-motion catastrophe will (must) be worked out by the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves.

          I don't know if the result will be a one-state, a two-state, or some strange hybrid coming out of this - all I know is that what cannot go on, will not.  And the current trends regarding Israel, the Occupied Territories, and the ongoing conflict are not sustainable.

          I hope that the outcome of all this is a nation or nations who can all be reasonably functional, and reasonably secure - because if that is not the result, Israel will not be a successful state going into the future.

  •  What does the Orthodox sector think of this? (4+ / 0-)

    Do they support or oppose the protest?; an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:03:23 PM PDT

  •  Solving the I/P problem (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    permanently could be accomplished by the passing of a simple law. The law, which would cover both Israel and the territories, would only permit marriages in which each of the partners were of the opposite antagonist. Yeah, it would be unfair to everyone. But young Palestinians and Jews would all get married to each other and in about 10 years every baby born in Israel is a Palestinian and a Jew. Pretty soon there are no more Jews, no more Palestinians, just Palestinian Jews. They wouldn't even need the law any more. #1 geopolitical problem in the world, solved.

    I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

    by doc2 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:11:26 PM PDT

    •  I have relatives who are Palestinian Jews (4+ / 0-)

      They were born in the British Mandate of Palestine!

    •  and you talk about other people (0+ / 0-)

      being a little out there.....

      I can professionally say, you are out there.....

      I certainly hope this was a snark.....

      Please do not tell me you are involved by being a member of DK4....really get involved...... goal is not to bring your adversaries to their knees but to their senses. -- Mahatma Gandhi

      by Mindmover on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 11:06:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm this sarcasm, doc2? (0+ / 0-)

      I'm "THE" Troubadour," and not "Troubadour" without the article. We're different people here at DK :)

      by David Harris Gershon on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 05:07:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wouldn't call it sarcasm, no. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Celtic Merlin, sturunner

        It's more of an essay. The idea itself is a joke, obviously. But the reader is hopefully going to be reminded of the underlying thesis - which is that if the religious and ethnic differences went away, these peoples would stop fighting each other.

        Don't tell me what you believe. And don't tell me what you do. I barely know you.

        by doc2 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 06:29:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  This would only work if it were coupled (0+ / 0-)

      with a policy to use American (or better yet, Texan!) methods and textbooks to teach history to all the children from these forced marriages - within a generation, none of them would be able to identify Israel, Palestine, or for that matter the Middle East on a map; they would be very hazy on just what constituted Judaism, Islam, or any other religion, and they would in fact not be sure just whether they lived in Israel, the Occupied Territories, or the Jersey Shore.

      Unfortunately, there is a downside to this Utopian vision - in the absence of any other issues, they would form themselves into cliques and gangs centered on trivial diferences in clothing or music taste and go after each other on that basis instead.

      (OK, that's snark - but the tendency of people everywhere to find differences and take exception on that basis is IMO real and persistent...making a liberal and tolerant society anywhere in this world is something that needs constant work, and is only worthwhile because of the huge benefits that proceed therefrom.)

  •  Outside of some isolated lefties (12+ / 0-)

    the majority of this protest is the Israeli Middle Class. While there is a lot about Israeli social justice here - don't confuse this with a protest about the Occupation and creating a One State solution. I guarantee you that when and if it does turn that way... people will be gone.

    Economic Justice in Israel is one thing. Ending the State of Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people is quite another.

    I speak as someone who supports the protests, but if this gets taken over and turned into One State advocacy.. My support is gone.

    DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

    by volleyboy1 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:14:42 PM PDT

    •  True (3+ / 0-)

      The majority of those attending the big protests have been middle class folks. But the main tent area (Rothschild Blvd.), a lot of the organizers, and the most vocal & organized protesters, are left and ultra-left.

      The Rothschild tent city is amazing. Sort of a cross between Tahrir Square and Woodstock.

      •  LOL... will we be hearing over the speakers (7+ / 0-)

        "Don't take the Brown Acid, I repeat Don't take the Brown Acid"? (Woodstock joke)

        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

        by volleyboy1 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:46:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey volley, the protests aren't in danger (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stargaze, Celtic Merlin, sturunner

          of being taken over by some mass movement for one state. This is simply an observation about the growing cooperation between Palestinians and Jews in the protests, and what it may mean socially.

          95% of Israeli Jews would probably throw something out the window at the prospect of a one state solution. And yet, many of this contingent are beginning to work collaboratively with Arabs on common political goals. Interesting observation, IMO.

          I'm "THE" Troubadour," and not "Troubadour" without the article. We're different people here at DK :)

          by David Harris Gershon on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 05:11:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How much day-to-day contact (5+ / 0-)

            does the average middle class Israeli Jew have with Israeli Palestinians?

            That's a serious question.  I know that except in a few "experimental" schools, they don't go to school together, and they certainly don't serve in the Army together.  So all the social networks that form naturally through adolescence and young adulthood would tend to be segregated.  What about in other spheres?

            If it's true that there is almost no social contact between the two groups, then any coming together for a common cause can only be positive.

            When shit happens, you get fertilized.

            by ramara on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 07:36:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  so far, except for a few examples of such (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      cooperation, the protests seem remarkably insular and the protestors make no connection between their current situations and government policies regarding the OT.

      I do note the government is beginning to blame the protestors for various catastrophes such as the lack of physicians in local hospitals to care for the victims of the latest attack due to the doctors' strike or blaming the protests as emboldening potential attackers to attack or saying the protestors do not understand the existential need for Israel to continue to exercise economic discipline  

    •  is this factual? (0+ / 0-)

      are you saying that apart from the "isolated" leftists the rest of the liberal/left wingers neither participate nor support the protests?
      Of course the "Middle Class" is the majority bloc but how can you distinguish who belongs to that class based on political philosophy or afilliation?
      Historically, the left is more seasoned at protests and gladly assume leadership to demand and fight for rights for sectors of the society like the Center (or middle class) while the centrists normally avoid confrontation.

      •  Yes it is factual but your interpretation is wrong (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, JayinPortland
        are you saying that apart from the "isolated" leftists the rest of the liberal/left wingers neither participate nor support the protests?

        Huh? are you deliberately misreading this????? Of course I am not saying that. The mass of the Israeli population supports the protest movement - figures show upwards of 88% support it.

        How did you get your conclusion from my comment?

        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 09:01:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I find the argument made very lacking. (5+ / 0-)

    Then again, it may depend on what "separation" means.

    There are domestic and international issues here, and I suggest the diarist conflates in a way that is adverse to the legitimacy of Jewish self-determination.

    Not that the assessment is even accurate, but a polemic.  

    Surely there should be less discrimination within Israel, and greater economic and social justice.  Name one state where this is not the case.  Israel is far down the list of worst offenders, despite the attention it receives.

    There seems scant evidence as I see it that this social movement will translate into a call for a single state that includes the West Bank.  Killing innocent Israelis by means of terrorist acts that indisputably violate international norms of armed conflict and criminal law, concerning treatment of civilians, will not further peace between Israelis and non-Israelis in my opinion.  Nor does the approval of these acts as virtuous acts help move the ball forward.  This is where I think the largest weakness is evident, and why the attempted conflation fails, in the transfer of a domestic matter protest into an international movement that operates in a different dimension and set of rules.

    If the diarist actually is calling for a single state, why beat around the bush.  It's confusing.  In any event, it should be done with eyes wide open as to the open and expressed feelings of Israel's adversaries toward Jews, not to mention non-believers, signalling an intention to make such a state discriminate against a vulnerable Jewish minority in a way much more reminiscent of South Africa than many claim Israel is.  That does not even get into the historical treatment of Jews by political Islam as second class in virtually every respect, again like South Africa.  Or the recent practice in the West Bank toward non-believers when Jordan was the occupier between 1948 and 1967, the closest actual analogy.

    Why would one expect it to be anything different?  Have non-Israeli Palestinians really shown that they meet the UN standard, set forth in GA Res. 194, to live in peace with their neighbors?  Their practice shows otherwise, repeatedly.  At least Israel's practice has shown by its practice that it makes peace with a real partner.

    But again, if the protests make Israel a better society for all its citizens, so much the better.  I see them as a sign of the vibrant Israeli democracy, while calls for one state are, in the end, a denial of Jewish self-determination, singling out Jews for disparate treatment once more, part of the historical pattern so often practiced by the dominant, imperialist majorities seeking to impose their will by coercion.

    A writer cannot prevent and is not responsible for the deliberate desire of some to distort his words. -- Eric Sevareid

    by citizen53 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:45:09 PM PDT

    •  Off to do other things... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      so have at it.  

      A writer cannot prevent and is not responsible for the deliberate desire of some to distort his words. -- Eric Sevareid

      by citizen53 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:47:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hi C53... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AZ Independent, sturunner

        Just wanted to note that the observation isn't that there are calls for one state going on as a result of the protests. Simply an observation that there have been remarkable examples of cooperation between Jews and Arabs working toward common political goals in a way that is new, particularly among those who strongly adhere to the principle of separation that goes far beyond the occupation.


        I'm "THE" Troubadour," and not "Troubadour" without the article. We're different people here at DK :)

        by David Harris Gershon on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 05:20:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There have always been such examples. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL, JayinPortland

          In the BDS diary yesterday, I provided a clip that showed a few examples of how cooperation was attempted and torpedoed, in the movement to have one state.

          I think it is a mistake to assume that cooperation is a new phenomenon, and I still do not know what you mean by the so-called principle of separation.

          A writer cannot prevent and is not responsible for the deliberate desire of some to distort his words. -- Eric Sevareid

          by citizen53 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 09:04:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How is it, c53, that a decision by the people of (0+ / 0-)

            Israel, if they choose to make it, about their own fates in the near historical period ahead would be a denial of  Jewish self determination, if the Jews of Israel are making that decision about one state themselves? Are you saying that the people of Israel do not themelves have the right to make that decision?

            •  It is fantasy to believe the Jewish citizens of (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, JayinPortland

              Israel will give up their national homeland at this point in time or at any point in the foreseeable future.

              "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

              by JNEREBEL on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 12:03:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It would not be. (0+ / 0-)

              But your argument is pure absurdity!!  Pie in the sky!!

              You have projected and twisted this in the worst possible way, and engaged in distortion to make an empty and inaccurate point!  

              Do you believe, as you imply, it is within the realm of any reasonable possibility that a majority of Jews in Israel would choose to enhance self-determination by choosing what existed before, to live as an oppressed minority with institutional second class citizenship, enforced through the spectrum of society?  That's called Apartheid, by the way.  

              And after hearing how they are seen as bacteria, and must be destroyed?

              In this situation, too many Palestinians and Arabs have expressly shown they cannot and will not permit Jewish self-determination, and a protest of Israelis for social justice does not a single state make, except to perhaps to a sophist.

              A writer cannot prevent and is not responsible for the deliberate desire of some to distort his words. -- Eric Sevareid

              by citizen53 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 12:14:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  UNGA 194 (0+ / 0-)

      Israel rejected it nearly in toto.  Perhaps it shpuld be re-issued?  There has been ome talk of such

      11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

      Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;

      and this

      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

      by Eiron on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 03:04:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  UNGA 194 set forth a principle... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        by which to determine the good faith of the parties, based on whether they were willing to live with their neighbors in peace.

        It transcends the specifics of return, which have still not been met after these many years and are not mandatory in any respect.

        A writer cannot prevent and is not responsible for the deliberate desire of some to distort his words. -- Eric Sevareid

        by citizen53 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 09:36:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually both sides seem to have rejected it (3+ / 0-)

        But hey... nice try at trying to rip Israel on this...

        Here is the actual text of ALL of UNGA 194

        Perhaps it shpuld be re-issued? There has been ome talk of such

        Just as "some say", the world will be ending in 2012? You mean like that?

        Oh and read the whole article.. It is very non-specific.

        Let's just be factual shall we.

        DK4: For those times when pissing in the hummus isn't enough

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 10:21:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As I indicated...UNGA provides a norm... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          irrespective of whether or not it was accepted or rejected.

          There has to be a way to determine conduct, and the standard of living with one's neighbors in peace is as good a criterion as any.

          A writer cannot prevent and is not responsible for the deliberate desire of some to distort his words. -- Eric Sevareid

          by citizen53 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 11:00:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Your thesis would only make sense (10+ / 0-)

    if the Arabs participating in these protests were from Gaza, the West Bank, and the rest of the world.  The fact that the participating Arabs are Israeli citizens doesn't add any support to your thesis at all. It just shows Israelis of all ethnicities -- Jewish and Arab -- participating in civil society.

    Taking the participation of Jewish and Arab Israeli citizens, and extrapolating that to mean that they want a one-state solution, flies in the face not only of logic but of the ample opinion-polling that has been done on the issue.

    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

    by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 09:50:22 PM PDT

  •  a one state 'solution' denies TWO peoples (10+ / 0-)

    the right of self determination.

    Other than that... well it also is bad for other reasons.  But for that one alone - bleh.

    •  the perpetuation (6+ / 0-)

      of the status quo definitely denies self determination for ONE of the peoples and it would be nice to see fervent opponents of the One-state solution fight with urgency to undo ehat's currently unjust for the "other" side instead of shivering at the thought that a different solution might be unjust to them in the future.

      •  yeah, that's funny (4+ / 0-)

        How am I not trying to end the occupation in your eyes?

        Is it because I refuse to cede rhetorical ground to idiots who think that Israel is a religious state, rather than an ethnic one?  Because I remain stubbornly opposed to ZOG rhetoric?  What am I not doing?

        Like I've said many times, I would even join a boycott movement that was specifically designed to end the occupation and did not target one specific ethnic group.  But no, BDS, for example, believes in boycott Jews only and desires a 1 state outcome through the 'right of return' of anyone remotely connected to 1948.  So I'm definitely not getting on board with that.

    •  Insofar as it denies both of them what they... (0+ / 0-)

      ...have wanted to great destructive effect over the last half-century and more, that in itself isn't a sufficient case against it.  I think it's up to proponents of a two-state solution to suggest how that could possible work over the long term, rather than having it as some kind of default reasonableness vs. the alleged craziness of a single secular state.  

      Let us resolutely study and implement the resolutions of the 46th Convention of the Democratic Party!

      by Rich in PA on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 04:52:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here is the bet with you (11+ / 0-)

    the more Arabs participate in these protests, the fewer every day normal, decent, leftwing, Jewish Israelis will participate, and the fewer Jews who participate, the fewer the Arabs who will participate.

    That will keep on going till the only Arabs and Jews who are participating in joint protests are the Arabs and Jews who for decades have organized jointly in Israel. There is a sizable group of these, but they have been very ineffective over the decades.

    I'm not saying this is what I'm hoping for, on the contrary, I hope that Israel's Arabs and Israel's Jews  become indistinguishable, legally, socially, and politically. I genuinely hope for an Israel that is without any hint of sectarianism.

    I'm also not saying this as a reflection of the natures of the two communities. It is simply a reflection of the political structure of Israel's multifaceted institutions; which has insisted on the almost total separation of these two communities residentially and culturally.

    I hope that I'm very wrong and that this turns into the civil rights movement that we have always dreamt of.  One which changes the nature of Israel forever.

  •  This is good. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soysauce, Celtic Merlin

    It is a good thing that "separation" as a solution to the problem of minorities is breaking down.   There is no peace there.   It took America a long hard struggle to give up on the idea of separation as the way to deal with our minorities.   Bravo!

    •  so you would be for France and Italy merging? (4+ / 0-)

      for instance, or Poland and Ukraine?

      •  I think a better argument would be AT-HU (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, fizziks


        The cultural differences there were bridged by the Habsburgs for centuries, but in reality, were just too great to have survived.

        There are plenty of examples of failed efforts to mesh multiple ethnic groups into a single state- very rare are examples of success.

        "Look at this; I'm a coward too; You don't need to hide, my friend; For I'm just like you" - Monster/Sprite (Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites - Skrillex)

        by AZ Independent on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 09:17:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's actually not true (5+ / 0-)

          Particularly in the Middle East and Asia.  Most Middle Eastern nations are conglomerates of various ethnic groups.  Look at Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and other nations.  Less than half of Iran is made of Persians; the rest are various other ethnic groups.  India is a hodgepodge of various ethnic groups, as is China.  

          Look at the UK, France, Spain, and Italy.  They are all a hodgepodge of various ethnic groups that merged into a modern nation state; they had to create various myths of identity in order to coalesce into a unified nation.  

          The modern European vision of one ethnic group per state is a myth; most of the states were formed based on old kingdoms, and not along any kind of ethnic identity.  National myths started after the geographic borders got settled, not before.  The Occitan in France is a great example of this - they have far more in common ethnically with Catalonia than with Paris.

          •  Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            All have tensions.

            The Kurdish right to self-determination was squashed after WWII because of European politicking- what would have been a Kurdish homeland was split between Iraq, Iran and Turkey.

            Sudan recently split into South Sudan because of irreconcilable tensions with the North.

            I think that depending on the gaps that have to be bridged, and commonalities there, the success of any nation depends on having a core set of values - are these people "like me".

            I could go on and on. Spain was united under Catholicism, Germany by language and culture (a late example), but Spain is also dealing with the ETA (Basque) and other separatists. Britain was united by the Angles and Saxons (germanic), and the Welsh and Scots brought to heel only under hundreds of years of military conquest. Today, Scotland still seeks a free nation.

            When the differences between two populations, regardless of ethnicity, are too great, a union does not endure. Some artificial lines won't change that.

            IMHO, the exception is the USA- people here don't rely on ethnicity, but a more common ideal, laid out in the promise of America via the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. But, still, it is a balancing act.

            Rambling, rambling, ... but any union is only as good as the ties that bind.

            "Look at this; I'm a coward too; You don't need to hide, my friend; For I'm just like you" - Monster/Sprite (Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites - Skrillex)

            by AZ Independent on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 03:19:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  France and Italy (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, sturunner

        were not always a unified entity as they are now.  Italy was dominated by different ethnic groups inside of the nation that we now call Italy.  France is the same - the South of France even had its own language (Occitan, or the Lenga d'òc) that is still retained degree.  The French as we now know them is mainly the culture of the north.

        Look at the UK - it's made of four distinct ethinic groups.

        Most modern day nation-states are a conglomerate of various ethnic groups.  China, India, Iran, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Lebanon, etc.  One nation per ethnic/cultural group is not the norm.  

      •  To be honest, given the Euro problems (0+ / 0-)

        they have a choice of pretty well merging or giving up their currency - my bet is on a de facto merger before Christmas (even if they don't admit to it).

  •  I think you present some interesting points (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, The Troubadour

    But I would have to say, that self determination should be paramount- it was the standard applied to most countries prior, and should be now as well.

    "Look at this; I'm a coward too; You don't need to hide, my friend; For I'm just like you" - Monster/Sprite (Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites - Skrillex)

    by AZ Independent on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 07:51:24 AM PDT

    •  So according to this logic (4+ / 0-)

      About a third of people in the US, and 20% of people in Israel, don't have self-determination because they are not the same ethnic group as the majority.

      •  I'm sorry, I don't get where you saw that? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        You seem to be making some very large leaps in logic here that I can't understand.

        There are processes for self-determination here, but it is not necessarily based on ethnicity.

        West Virginia removed itself from Virginia during the Civil War, as the population was economically distinct from the secessionists in Richmond.

        So I'm not quite sure what you mean by not having self-determination...

        "Look at this; I'm a coward too; You don't need to hide, my friend; For I'm just like you" - Monster/Sprite (Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites - Skrillex)

        by AZ Independent on Mon Aug 22, 2011 at 03:08:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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